Graysexuality

Genital sex is treated like the center of gay culture, so what happens when your desire does not follow that script. We sit down with Jamie, Mr. Leather Europe, to talk about graysexuality, the asexual spectrum, and the quiet shame that can creep in when you do not respond the way you think you’re “supposed” to. If you’ve ever wondered why porn, dark rooms, or explicit group chat talk does nothing for you, you’re not alone and you’re not broken.

We get practical about relationships and play: how to tell a partner you can take sex or leave it, how to negotiate scenes without defaulting to orgasm as the finish line, and why BDSM can be a powerful doorway into intimacy. Jamie shares what changes when kink becomes the engine, from power exchange and spanking to chastity as a pressure release valve. We also dig into performance anxiety, the weird high stakes of travel hookups, and why meeting in person can reveal chemistry that no profile can predict.

Then we zoom out to community life. Jamie talks about his leather title journey, what it’s like to represent as a European title holder, and the real-world decision to attend International Mr. Leather while acknowledging US travel fears for many people, especially trans folks, immigrants, and people of color. We close with a hopeful look at kink visibility in Ireland, including speaking about consent and kink on national TV, and the reminder that your body is worth listening to.

Subscribe for more honest conversations about leather, kink, BDSM, consent, and identity and if this resonated, share it with a friend and leave a review. What part of desire do you wish our community talked about more?

Transcript

Content Warning And Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Let's talk about gray sexuality. This podcast contains material intended for a mature audience. Before proceeding, please check your local laws and confirm that you are an adult. Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about Leather Kink and BDSM. My name is Ed. My pronouns are he-him, and I'm your host. And this time we're going to be talking about gray sexuality. I did an interlude on this maybe a season or two ago, but it's still a concept and a term that most people have never heard of and therefore most people don't know about. So I'm really excited to have Jamie, Mr. Leather Europe, on the show today to have a discussion about gray sexuality and the complications of sex and its relationship to kink. We also have a great question for the Ask Edge segment. Overall, I'm really excited for this episode because I adore Jamie, and I love providing education on gray sexuality since it's pretty core to who I am. So let's get started, and hopefully you'll enjoy this as much as I do. And I am beyond delighted to welcome to FullCal, Mr. Leather Europe, Jamie. Jamie, welcome to FullCal.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

It's so good to be here, and it's so good to be chatting with you again, Edge.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Oh my god, I'm so delighted. Um, can you start by telling us your pronouns and how you identify in the community?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Jamie. I go by he him. I'm a sub-turn switch, partly out of necessity in Ireland. Uh I've been living in Dublin the the past 10 years or so. I'm originally from the west of Ireland, and um I'm you're a good old-fashioned community kinkster. So as Mr. doing a bit of adgress advocacy, um go traveling for play usually because there's not enough of it here locally, but that's that's potentially for another episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Indeed. And uh Jamie has a special place in my heart because when I first went to Dublin, which was my first solo international travel, he was so kind and generous with local resources, and I would be like, I want a cup of coffee, and it'd give me 10 different places. It was it was so kind of you, I will say. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Oh, it was the pleasure was all mine, really. It was fabulous having you over here. I gotta make it over your side sometime.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Or I have to make it back to Dublin. I mean, I'm not mad about that.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Always welcome.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

So we're here to talk about gray sexuality. And can you start by telling me what that term means to you? Like how would you define it?

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Yeah, absolutely. I I had no concept of what gray sexuality was. If I'll be honest, I had a loose concept of what even demisexuality was, or whatever words you'd like to call it. It was you who brought it to my attention originally. Um, so you had mentioned that you were gray sexual and what that meant for you, and that had really opened up a conversation in in my mind, and and it made a lot of things start to make sense for me. So, for me, what it means is I I'm I'm a differently wired person. Uh I it's I have a libido, um, I have sexual drive. Um, sometimes I have a high sexual drive, sometimes I have no sexual drive. The things that make me feel most um most aroused or most excited may not necessarily be the things that make the typical person most aroused and excited. I don't get excited by the thoughts of being in a dark room, the thoughts of lots of penises and asses when I'm in a group chat online and they're all talking about, you know, all that beef and uh you know, oh I fucked this guy. That doesn't really work for me. I I appreciate it. Much like you know, I would appreciate um anyone talking about something that doesn't sexually appeal to me, but I just don't have those traditional responses. And I think as as you said, sometimes that can be uh advantageous, and but a lot of the time, especially when you're not aware of what that means, it can be disadvan disadvantageous. You feel quite left out of the conversation, you start to question yourself, you start to question your your masculinity if you're a man. Um, you start to question is it my testosterone level? What's wrong with me? Is there something that I'm just I need to fix or improve? And that's that's where I went with with that until I really discovered what grace actuality was, and I could start to reframe those conversations with myself.

Gray Sexuality In Long Relationships

SPEAKER_01 4:57

And I mean, I I will echo like I felt broken for most of my life until I don't even remember how I found the term. Then I was like, oh, now it all makes sense. So I really want to affirm what you're saying. How how has this played out in your relationship? You have a partner, like how what what sort of conversations have you had there? What is your sex life?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

I mean, I don't need details, but yeah, I I think uh for I've been together with him now for about nine years, and I think it wasn't something that really came up in conversation. I think particularly in the early stages of our relationship, because we we met quite infrequently, so it was less of a concern, I guess. And you know, always when things are hot and exciting at the start of a relationship, I'd like to I I think part of me thinks I have a fetish for novelty because I always seem more excited about something when it's new and and and uh unexpected, and then when things settle, I start to get back into my old mental loops. So when things started to settle down, you know, um we did we did start to have less sex, but uh I think it hasn't affected me so much in my relationship because a lot of the sex we have is non-traditional anyway. I mean, a lot of the play that we have would not be centered around something like fucking or sucking or any of that. We'd be primarily doing power exchange or spanking or chastity, and chastity is really fun if you're a gray sexual because it takes a lot of that pressure off, it lets you focus on things beyond just your dick. Um, so in that respect, it hasn't it hasn't affected my relationship um that much. Now, when I do when I play with others, uh the usual sort of uh dreaded thoughts come up in my head. Am I going to perform well? Am I going to be excited in this moment? How can I how can I force this to happen? And there is nothing worse than a scene that you're engaged in, you're enjoying, um, but there's just something not clicking, maybe mentally, maybe physically, and you can't immerse yourself in that scene or that play like the other person can. I mean, I've always been so envious of guys who can just swan on into a dark room and their their dick is flailing about and they have no cares in the world. Although sometimes I question to what degree that's also real, because there is a performative aspect of that that I think I become more and more aware of as I've had more conversations with people. And I think that's at the root of this stigma around gray sexuality or asexuality is this idea that we're particularly as gay men, uh, we're expected to be sort of always on top, always ready to perform, always sex focused. And if we're not, what like that that's a bad thing traditionally, you know.

Kink Without Genital Sex

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah, and I think it's worth taking a moment to say that when when we're talking about sex, we're talking about genital sex, we're talking about fucking and sucking, which is so central to gay culture. And I love that you're pointing out that with your partner, that's not where you get your pleasure. Like kink is the engine for pleasure. And I do think that, especially for people who have a different relationship to sex, like kink is such a uh an amazing opportunity because you can generate all crazy intimacy, crazy pleasure, and it doesn't have to be about cocks and buttholes. And um, so how have how has your kink journey then expanded your ab ability to kind of create pleasure and intimacy without sex?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Oh, it's it changed everything when I really decided that this was the way I wanted to go with my with my sex life, all in on kink. Uh, and I'm uh I was very fortunate to meet some very experienced SM practitioners, uh, people who just really understand that uh kink is as much about a whole body experience, it's a spiritual experience, it's a psychological exploration. It is a form of therapy in some aspects, a non-traditional form of therapy. And I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily recommend that it replaces a talk therapist, but it is a it's a whole other dimension that you can explore if you if you can explore it safely with someone who's experienced. And some of the best, some of the best sex I've had in my life um has not involved genitals, it's not involved an orgasm. Um, it's been a beautiful exchange of feelings and power and challenge, and there's tears at the end, and there's strong emotions that well up from deep within you. And to me, that is one of the most beautiful experiences a human can have. And I really like that uh serious kink uh is respectful of the fact that you don't need to have an orgasm for it to be a enjoyable and fulfilling session. I still think there's a a smaller group of people that really embody and understand this. There's still a lot of overlap of traditional sex and kink. Sometimes I played with people where there's been a bit of a an imbalance or a miscommunication where they really want the scene to end uh in orgasmic terms or traditional sex terms, but for me, the scene itself that is the moment, and I I think over time I've become more and more clear with people that that's my expectation. And hey, look, there are times when you know I'll be in the mood for just a traditional good old-fashioned uh suck fuck whatever situation you want, but that's not my primary drive. My primary drive is everything around that that some people might see as foreplay, but I see as serious play.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, and I'll I'll pause again to sort of my understanding of gray sexuality, it's under the asexual umbrella, but whereas people who are asexual have no interest in sex, grays can take it or leave it. Like I it's great if I have an orgasm, but I that's not what's driving me into this scene.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Um, yeah, I I mean I I think there's an important distinction to make because I think often, and this is my own misconception too. When you hear of these terms, and there are so many terms, there's a rabbit hole of specificity, and I think that can be somewhat off-putting uh in terms of people don't want to use terms that are alienating or confusing. Um, but for me, grace actuality is just at the right point where it says a lot in one word uh uh when you understand what the word is. So it is not necessarily that I have a dysfunctional libido, it is not necessarily uh that I have some sort of uh disordered view to sex, it's just simply that I may have less of a specific drive for penetrative sex or gentle sex than you do. Uh, I have plenty of interest in other spaces, and if you'd like to meet me halfway there, that's great. I may or may not always be in the mood for something more traditional, and communication is always at the root of those things. So by communicating, hey, this is me, I'm gray sexual, I'm able to explain a lot to you. Uh and it kind of puts it takes a burden off me to have to explain everything in a sense. You go look up what Grey Sexual is, and you start to get a better picture of where I'm at, right?

Labels, Stigma, And Clear Communication

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah. Um has your journey as a title holder sort of exacerbated the problem? Because I feel like in the community, there's this real sense there are people who are out to fuck title holders, right? Like there's a real sense that title holding is a sexual job. So how is holding a title like complicated this for you?

SPEAKER_02 12:12

I I I've played, I've played, I've been playing less and I've had less sex uh as a title holder. And I I'm always curious about the whether that's a culturally uh different thing to US title holders, because when I hear about US title holders, I hear that there's a culture of sex centricity. But I think with European title holders and then perhaps with other title holders in the world, I can only speak for Europe, um, we're we play a lot more of a community ambassador role. I think people presume that I have a lot more play and sex than I actually do, because often I'm traveling so much that I just don't have a great drive uh for it. You know, I'm tired, uh, it would be nice, but I've I've spent a lot of weekends where the sleep sack never left the luggage case. So um uh it's funny, that hasn't actually come into play uh as much as I think. Although um I have I I I have had moments over the last few months where I thought I was gonna have a great moment with someone, it was a spontaneous sort of encounter, and then you know, because things happened too fast or we didn't communicate beforehand, uh the expectations shifted, and I kind of had this feeling of, oh no, I have to perform now. This is not really about what I was hoping it would be. And I've I've had to kind of like pause the scene and say, Hey, you know, this I can do this, I'm just not going to get a lot out of this. And I'm I really don't mean that to sound flippant. Some people take that badly as well. Um, some people when they see that you're not responding to that particular activity, uh, they take it as a sign that you're not interested. I mean, I could be drip, I could be dripping with pre-com at this point, but you know, it's it's it's just at that moment, like that's not where I want to go in terms of of play. Uh it's complicated, you know, it's it's not like uh it's not like I'm always this one mode of play. It's just with gray sexuality, it fluctuates and it fluctuates a little more maybe than to a traditional expectation or traditional balance of horny, not horny, you know?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah. And and you also earlier on sort of briefly mentioned demisexuality, and and for me, I feel like there's this combination of demi and gray for me. So, because there are some people that I cannot have enough sex with, and I can't explain what they activate. I wish I knew, but I do feel it's that demi, that sort of special connection that something on the inside connects to something on their inside. What role does uh I mean, do you identify as demi as well? How does that intersect your gray sexuality? Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, I don't know as much about the specifics of demisexuality. I mean, I I came across the term gray sexuality, and that was enough for me. It kind of gave me enough affirmation. Um, there are so many of these uh branching terms. I mean, we can go into the whole romantic uh spectrum as well. Uh maybe, maybe there is an aspect of me that's demi if you if from what you've just described, every now and then I'll meet someone and they kind of go cuckoo for a while. Uh there's just a sort of uh magic that happens, a sort of chemistry that that is is hard to explain. And and you know, I could I could be so viciously horny then for days afterwards. Um and I don't I can't quite explain that. Uh it's just sometimes the type of person you meet. I mean, I'm I'm very attracted to personalities and to intelligence, and and a lot of the chemistry I have with people, I think is a mix of the safety I feel with them, the feeling that you know I can really be fully myself and I don't have to perform. And then it's also just a meeting of minds or a meeting of the right the right two people. And uh as I said before, it's sometimes it's a novelty thing as well. If I discover something new that can set me on fire for a while, and then I start to cool down as I kind of become my new normal. Um, but I I try not to get lost in too much specificity. Um, I fully respect uh any terms that people want to use to describe themselves. I've kind of I've kind of gotten to the point where I'm happy with what I found. Ultimately, what any term is about, what any what any self-descriptor is about is it's two things. It's to give you an affirmation that you're not the only one out there, and it's to give you a word that you can use to find other people in your tribe. And through grey sexuality, I've just it's been easier for me to find people like myself and have conversations where I feel like I'm not alone in all of this. Uh I found that really, really affirming.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

So I do think there's a sense in which these labels can be really empowering. Because like, oh, I'm not broken, I'm gray sexual, but but they can be a little limiting as well. They you end up in the box. And and is that sort of what you're talking about there?

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yeah, I think I think with labels, you can get very specific and you can describe yourself in a in such a narrow box that it's it's hard to find someone that that that you align with. I don't want to be I don't want to be label shaming, right? Uh I do think these labels are valid. Um I try not I try not to make grace actuality the first thing I use to describe myself. It is it is one aspect of me, it is a term that is a very useful toolkit for me to navigate sex with other people, particularly if they're coming from a different perspective. But I try not to let it become too much of a an anchor or too much of a weight. I I won't use gray sexuality as kind of this thing where it's like, I'm gray sexual, you have to deal with that before you can play with me. Right. You know, it's more for me to just say, I don't want to have to explain this two paragraphs of this. Here's a word, you go look it up. Um basically I'm wired differently. Uh, and let's see where we go from there.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah, I want to get back to um when you're talking about having less less sex because you're traveling so much, because I I I am beginning to suspect that when I travel, like my sex drive gets deactivated. Like I was in Spain for three weeks and I I didn't have sex at all. I'm I'm getting ready to go to Austin King weekend. There are all these guys who want to meet me, and uh, and I think their set of expectations are gonna be different than my set of expectations. You talked about sort of the the draining of being tired from all the travel, but do you also find that just your energy shifts, particularly if you're traveling as a title holder?

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yeah, I I get into sort of what I call mystery mode. So when I'm in mystery mode, like I'm trying to give as much energy as I can to what's around me, or trying to meet people that I may only have a chance to meet in that weekend or in that moment. And when I'm putting so much of myself ext out there externally, I'm I'm less focused on myself and and what I'm really looking for in that moment. And sometimes just between all the traveling, between all the overwhelm of meeting so many people, navigating a city that you're not familiar with can be quite a quite a stress, as I'm sure you I'm sure you've experienced. So at the end of the day, you know, okay, I'll I'll open up recon or whatever, but like I don't know how much energy I have for that. I mean, I had a even last weekend I was in Berlin, and you know, normally when I go to Berlin, I'm fully primed for some really hard SM sessions, but I was tired. I was at the end of uh I think five, six weeks straight of travel. Uh, I didn't want to put I the th I think the difference is now when I was first when I was first getting into type holder stuff, I used to be very hard on myself. I used to think, uh, you know, you should have more energy for this, you should be grateful. Why aren't you like meeting all these guys? And now I just listen to my body and I say, you know what, it's not gonna happen. This was not as good of a weekend as it was last year, but there will be another weekend that's better. Uh I think I think part of kind of part of being how do I describe it? You have to listen to your body at the end of the day. And if your body's telling you it's tired, you know, it is what it is. I don't push myself to have sex. I don't I don't beat myself up if I'm not feeling like I should be feeling. Um, I think there's a lot of pressure on guys when they don't when their sex drive isn't high or they're not responding traditionally, like that, they need to take a supplement or they need to exercise more. It's a fix, it's a fix that has to be found. Um, but I think it's like like most things in life, it's when you stop chasing that and you just let things be that you know your drive will come back naturally when you least expect it. And you just have to be patient sometimes.

When Chemistry Does Not Translate

SPEAKER_01 20:36

And you also talked about that sometimes you do encounter people who just sort of activate something in you. And I know the big challenge for me is I never know how we're gonna click until we meet in person. You know, we can have great conversations online, we can have great FaceTimes, it can be I can be really into you, I think you're really hot, and then we meet in person and there can just be nothing there. And then it becomes really awkward. Do you do you have that sort of is that experience? Is that part of your experience as well?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, uh sometimes sometimes a profile will be written in such a way that I just know. I just know we're gonna connect. There's something about the the weaving of the words or the or the approach where I'm I know it's gonna work. Um, there have been times when I've I've read someone's profile, thought they were completely uninteresting, happened to meet them in person, and it was like sparks, and I had some of the best sex of my life. Uh, I think it's one of those things where you know um you can't judge a book by its cover, particularly with the online culture of hookups. This is why I really, I really encourage people to try and meet locally in person, uh, meet at bars, actually connect with people. Don't don't like there's too much judgment that happens online. People skip each other's profiles, they miss out on greatest opportunities they could have because they limit themselves based on oh, this person didn't put up enough pictures, or this person said this one thing I don't like, and now I'm kind of switched off. Um It's it's when things happen spontaneously in person, you can't really you can't really account for that. And especially people who are wired like us, like I can it's really down to just that moment of when you do connect. If it doesn't work as well, I think it's important to be honest about it. Yeah, there have been times where I thought I was going to get along so great with someone and we met and there was just nothing there. And I just thought, do you want to just have a drink and chat? And generally, you know, we've we've laughed it off and it's been okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

What I found is that complex the extra complication, because you talk about meeting locally, which is always smart. Like just because of the size of any given local pool, say the pool in Dublin, a lot of times I'm chatting with men around the country, around the world. They want to fly and meet me, and I'm like, oh my God, if you get off that plane and the chemistry's not there, it's gonna be a very awkward visit. So there's also something, I mean, I I always feel a lot of trepidation approaching someone because I I I've I've I've had so many what in my mind were bad outcomes, right? Because I'm not wired like others, that I it also it becomes very inhibitive. Like, do you find that kind of fear as you go into encounters?

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah, absolutely. Um it's a very specific feeling that I've experienced many times and I still do, where um there's a little voice in my head that will say, Oh, this is going great. This is going great. Uh it's a good thing they didn't uh say this. And I'll start getting like a little uh negative feedback loop in my head, and I have to kind of breathe through that and relax. Um that happens to varying degrees, uh, depending on who I play with. This is why I think personally speaking, I like to play with uh people who are very forward and uh aggressive uh in a sense because it kind of short circuits that part overthinking part of your brain. That's what just personally works for me. Um but yeah, there there are cycles of behavior that you can get yourself stuck in, and I've improved over time by just take putting less pressure in myself. I I think sometimes it helps me to stop thinking about what I think the other person needs and just worry about what I'm feeling in my own body because I think in the past I was so worried about pleasing the other person that I would start to lose my my groove, you know. Um but look, uh we're all we're all adults here. If something isn't working, it's better to take a pause and explain, particularly if you trust that person, and ideally you're playing with people that you can have those conversations with. Um, and just you know, gauge the situation, take a moment for yourself, and you know, sometimes then things will be fine afterwards, and sometimes they won't. And uh yeah, I think particularly when you're traveling or someone's traveling to you, that can really amplify that that worry because they they're making an investment or you're making an investment. It's almost a transactional thing where there is an expectation that this works. Um, that's why I'm always nervous about you know traveling specifically to meet someone. And uh I've always encouraged people who have approached me to say, hey, why don't we meet at this festival or why don't we meet at this commonplace first? Because then at least if something goes wrong, you still have a whole place around you, and uh there's not a sense of you're stuck with me now for the weekend. Good luck.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

The stakes are very different if you're meeting at IML or you're meeting at full folsom uh like you're there for that, and then you get to meet them. Um I love that we're having this conversation because I think we're normalizing, right? We're normalizing this and we're saying, I mean, because I'm I'm a fairly successful, happy person. You're a fairly successful, happy person, and we're wired differently. And I think people who are listening to this, some people will need to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I think that matters so much, and I'm glad you brought that up because I I have always looked up to you, Edge. And for someone who is uh very sex positive is a very classic Leatherman type, to be able to say with confidence and put it out there that this is a part of me that that is maybe less traditional or that I'm not some sort of sex beast, I think that sends a really positive message to everyone out there that what you see in images and what is real life can be two different things and often are two different things, particularly in the culture of social media and the just for fan-centric uh content machine. And that's kind of why I have these conversations as well. And it's I guess it's a big drive as for me as a mystery is you know, I have these pictures where I look super sexy. I like looking sexy, by the way. It's uh we it's great, it's affirming. But I don't want you to think that I'm some sort of unapproachable uh sex god asshole. Like these are right, we're real people, and everyone has these issues to some degree, or everyone has these facets of themselves that they're working through. By having more conversations like this, it just paints a picture of us all as ordinary human beings who, you know, we happen to put on our superhero cape from time to time, but we are still everyday people, you know? And I think the more conversations we have like this, the the better it benefits all of us, you know.

Jamie’s Leather Title Origin Story

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Yeah, and I love that you brought up again that you are a must-mister. So let's pivot a little bit and talk about your title holding journey. I I've I believe you started as Mr. Dublin Leather. Did I get the title? Mr. Dublin Leather, yes. So Mr. Dublin Leather 2025. And now you're Mr. Leather. Can you tell us a little bit like what made you decide to run for a title? What has that journey been like for you? What have you accomplished? What do you hope will accomplish? Give us your title holding story.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah, absolutely. So uh I've been on the scene for a long time. Um, gosh, I think about 12, 13 years now. Uh I was always very insecure. So when I say I was on the scene, it was more like I was intermittently on and off the scene because I beat myself up a lot over how I looked. I kind of thought, oh, I'm I'm a hairy guy, I'm a little overweight, I don't match what I'm seeing as a requirement on people's hookup profiles. And so I'd get in my head, I'd drop out, I'd jump back in, and at some point, uh people started dying around COVID. I people that I wanted to meet, people like Daniel Dumont, were no longer there, and I had all these opportunities to get involved and meet them and get involved with these wonderful events, and I was so in my own head that I missed out. So at one point I just sort of flipped and said, I don't want to miss out on this anymore. And I kind of went from one extreme to the other where I just got involved in everything. I would I would make it a mission to go into bars, talk to every stranger I saw, even if I hated it. And that that was sort of my my starting point into the the person I am today, and that just naturally led to trying trying for the competition. So the the Mr. Dutton Nether competition had started. Um, I went for it the first year, didn't win, but still had a really good time. I was happy to leave it at that. Then uh a few of my friends practically bullied me into trying it one more time, and I did win. And it's been so fun to be the person that you always looked up to or or the embody the kind of hero that you would imagine yourself being when you were younger. That's my biggest drive as a Mr. And to see a version of myself in uh newbies and younger kinksters, and to offer them a bit of this picture of you know, this is achievable, you can be involved in this scene. It doesn't take as much as you might think, and I'm here to help you. That is that that is my higher life purpose, really, truly. And yeah, going for Mr. Lot of Europe then was was essentially an extension of that. Um, so it's kind of a tradition that the the Mistress in Dublin go for Mr. Lather Europe. Um, our current Mr. Uh Declan uh will hopefully be going for it this year. Uh I it's it's definitely like the scale is different. Um, you're no longer just representing your local little home club, you're representing a continent, and that can feel weird sometimes. Uh, but really, uh, my my current platform or my current goal has just been hopping around to smaller clubs, smaller events. That's where I really get my my my life and recharge my batteries and showcase you know what they have to offer and give them they're so excited when a Mr. Lather Europe comes to their small little weekend, it it means something to them, and that's that's really crazy to me because sometimes I ask myself, what does this really mean? Are we all just performative pageant queens doing this for our own egos? But then I see the impact it has on other people, and that's my biggest drive. And I'll be going for IML. I mean, it's it's what like five, five, six weeks away, which is sort of crazy. And and you know, IML will really be a love letter to that little kid who kind of would give up and go, I don't know if I belong here. Uh to stand in that stage will be, I think, one of the biggest privileges of my life. And I'm very excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Yeah, let's talk about IML because my understanding in that is that's been a complicated decision for non-US title holders. And I know some title holders have just said, but this situation, you know, I I I don't want my social media scrutinized before I'm allowed in the country. I don't want to be gestapoed. What was your process in working through that decision and deciding it was going to be right for you?

SPEAKER_02 31:12

This this uh decision to not attend IML, this is something that's been prevalent both last year and this year, and no doubt will be next year unless something wonderful happens. Uh for a lot of people, uh, it is a valid decision. Um, for people who may identify as being more at threat or more vulnerable. Uh so really I'm talking about people of color, um, immigrants, uh, trans people, people who even just look gender non-conforming, may not necessarily be trans. They are being targeted. There's no doubt about that. And it's it's getting worse as time goes on. Um, even the thought of ICE being present uh at TSA is is quite scary. Um fortunately in Ireland we have a pre-clearance that helps somewhat, and it is a lot it is a lot less scary. And I do know of people who are going to fly through Ireland from Europe. So I I will I 100% respect and back those who make the decision not to attend. My my position and my platform is not to discredit their decision. It is not safe to travel to the US in any in any form. I don't think anyone can say that with certainty that it is. But from my perspective, one thing, I'm a white cis guy, I'm from Ireland, I don't think I'm hitting any of those uh targets. So there is uh there is a relative, at least an illusionary degree of safety that I have there and privilege that I have. I want to exercise that privilege to represent those who can't travel. I want to be there to be that voice, and I also want to be there to visit my family because no matter what's happening, no matter what's happening in the country, no matter what's happening with this just tyrannical everything, I'm not going to stop visiting my family. I'm not going to stop supporting the world that I adore and love. I think it will take uh wild horses to stop me from doing that. Uh, so it is very important for me to continue to represent as long as I have the privilege and relative safety to do so. And I will stand up for those who can't, and I will represent those who can't as long as as long as I can.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I mean, it really is about using your privilege in a way, like understanding that you have the privilege and then showing up for people who can't, right? Like, and and even for us to talk about gray sexual, I think is like it's easy for me to say I'm gray sexual, because you know what? When when I when you look like me, you can do whatever the fuck you want. But to have the these layers of privilege and then normalize things or have layers of privilege and show up for people who can't, that's a very powerful thing.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Yes, it is. And and that's a that's a big part of what I try to do. I'm not trying to be the voice for other people, uh, but I am trying to show a positive representation. And and if people uh if that gives people uh the ability to stand up and talk about it themselves, that's more power to them. And I I I want to try and inspire that in other people when I can.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Um speaking of politics, you know, I my understanding is uh Ireland is also getting a little xenophobic. Yes. Yes. But I've also I also know you were on like Irish national television, some morning show, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Oh yeah, that's right. Um so we have a little we have a little morning show called Ireland AM. Um and they once a year, at least for the past few years, uh they do a fun little segment where they they talk about sex or kink. Uh so we we've been very fortunate that uh we've had some sort of representation at least the last two years, and this year they did a Valentine's Day special. Um so myself and Eva Murray, uh who is a sex educator, I really recommend you look her up. She's got a lot of great things to say. Um, we talked about uh kink and uh consent and uh kink at pride, and we had an array of toys on a coffee table in front of us, and this was at like 11am on uh on a Saturday morning on national TV. For Areland to get to this point, and if you know anything about Ireland, I mean we we basically made condoms legal in the 90s, along with decriminalizing homosexuality, for us to get to this point where we can have conversations like that on public television, um, ideally not terrifying uh people, but rather opening people's minds to our existence and the positive impact that we have. And that, you know, rather than you jeering and laughing at us, we want you to respect us and we want you to be inspired by us because we are living life a little larger, a little bolder. Um, but we we want the same things as other people do, and we just want to be seen for the wonderful folks that we are.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah, was that uh and so so part of what we're celebrating here is that Ireland, like so many places in the world, so many places are dealing with xenophobia, but Ireland at least is making some progress around sex and queerness, so we want to celebrate that. But this was that a was that a a hard decision for you to make to go on like this huge TV show? Because it's one thing to be gay and in leather at fulsome, it's another to be gay and in leather just on public television, right? Like what was that decision-making process for you?

SPEAKER_02 36:40

No, Ed, for me, uh I've again I've I've had a great privilege that I I don't have two separate personalities. I don't have a leather self and a vanilla self. I I was very fortunate to just decide at one point I can't be dealing with having two of these different lives. Uh, I'm fortunate to have employment where that's that's recognized and supported. That isn't always going to be the case in in every job I'm sure I have. I don't wouldn't want to paint a picture to people that Ireland is now the new kink-friendly capital. Uh, we still have a lot of issues in terms of access to venues and infrastructure. I think a big problem is the the current generation, the bar isn't uh the bar is quite low because there's no spaces to practice and learn. And what happens as a consequence is a lot of Irish Kingsters have to travel just to be able to experience things. Um for me, you know, it's I I weirdly I have no problem speaking publicly in in that platform. I've I actually I did a I did another uh bit on radio earlier on this week, and I I spoke in radio before about leather and leathermen of Ireland. Um I and I would love for there to be more than just me speaking about it, I would love there for there to be more positive representations of trans and non-binary folk who are in our club to be given that platform as well. It's just if it starts with me, great, but ultimately I want it to get to the point where more people can feel like they can speak about the issues that are on our scene or the challenges that we face. This is just the first stepping stone. I think sometimes uh I don't know if you know B. Um B once said to me, uh BB Hop, um, that one of the one of the tricks to do uh one of the tricks when you want to convince people or or or get people in on your side is to sort of get the hook in, then twist it, and then and then by the because once you've gotten once you've gotten the support of people and once you've made it feel safe, then you can start talking about the issues, and then you can start talking about the things that you need. And people are more likely to listen to you when they feel they can trust you and when when you're on their side. So when I do that on radio and TV, that's me basically saying, Here, look at us, we're acceptable, we're lovely. Now we need stuff from you, so now you're gonna listen to us.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

And again, it is it is about if you've given privilege and not speaking for people who not speaking for people who aren't, right? But but really at least trying to open the door so that people who have um less privilege can walk in behind you. Um power and numbers. Yeah. Uh is there anything we haven't talked about yet that you wanted to talk about?

Listening To Your Body And Community Life

SPEAKER_02 39:25

No, nothing that I can think of. Um, if there's anyone who's listening who's interested in visiting Ireland, uh I am a member of the Leatherman of Ireland. We have a social once every two months. We also have a gear sale twice uh twice annually. That's coming up May 2nd. Um if you're interested, uh feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions about grace actuality or any questions about anything I discussed. I'm always available on all the platforms, hobbler.ie, and I'm always willing to listen.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

You also have a great event, Dublin Leather Weekend, which is every January.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Yeah, usually the usually the last weekend or the or the third weekend.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

And it's absolutely fantastic. I had such a great time when I went. I'm so glad I went. Um, one of the takeaways I hope people leave this episode with, because you've mentioned a few times, is really listening to your body. Because I think we're bombarded with so many cultural messages, particularly for us as gay systems men, right? Like sex, penis, butthole. And for you to take to sort of listen to your body and block those voices.

unknown 40:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Yeah, and that takes time. It doesn't, it doesn't happen overnight. Uh, you have to deconstruct some of those narratives, but be kinder to yourself, you know, be patient with yourself, and don't always be focusing on what you expect others to to see of you. Like build a sort of a moat around you and yourself and your interests and hold hold on to that. Because I think people people are attracted to people who are most comfortable with themselves. I think it's something that you sort of naturally project when you really when you really figure that out. And when it's a work, it's a work in progress. I'm not perfect. I have my moments, but but it gets better with each each hump that you overcome, uh so to say.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Well, I and I love that the message is isn't just listen to your body, what turns you on, what doesn't, normalize that, don't listen to the messages in your head, but also listen to your body. You're tired. You don't have to go to that party tonight. Really? You're tired. Get some rest. It's okay. So uh I think um overall, as a as a world, we need to really learn to sort of root ourselves more in our body and really trust it. Because I think we've been taught to not trust our bodies because we think our bodies are wrong. Wrong shape, wrong size, wrong color, wrong hairiness, right?

unknown 41:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Oh yeah, oh yeah. The and it's it's all the social media, it's all the content creation. There's this uh the constant drive to to be always switched on, to perform, to look the right way. I think sometimes you just have to detach from that a little bit. That if that involves being in social media a little less, if it involves turning up to bars a little more, please go to your local bar if you have one, go to your local events. Yeah, to me, that's the antidote to all this. It's it's very hard to keep that narrative in your mind if you're just talking to other fellow humans in a small little club, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah, so I'm assuming your reign is Mr. Dublin Leather is over, yes?

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

And I finished uh November. November. Alright, so and uh you'll be at IML very soon. In fact, this episode will drop at the start of May, so people can hunt you down and try to say hello and support you at IML if they would like, and I hope they do.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

I I hope I hope to say hello to every one of those people. I will do my absolute best. Do you feel ready yet? I think so. I think so. Um I'm not I'm not taking it I'm taking it seriously, but I'm not running myself into the ground over it. I've got my fun little routines. I'm gonna do something whimsical and something fun because I always love this idea of uh playing with the idea of masculinity and whimsy and and not taking yourself too seriously as a person. And yeah, as I said, the IML weekend is really that it is a love letter I'm penning to myself. That that little that little guy who needed someone like me to kind of grab him by the shoulders and say, Hey, you're okay. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Well, uh this episode is my love letter to you because I absolutely adore you. And I'm just so grateful we could have this conversation and that you made time. And uh I I love that because you're the only you're the only other gray sexual I know. It also like reminds me that I'm not making this up, right? Like this is actually real. There are other people like me, and here's one.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Oh, but may there may there be many more.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

May there be many more. I mean it sounds like a little bit of a curse, but may we find others who are already out there.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Life's better in gray. I mean, I love I love gray anyway. I love gray hankies, gray leather. Why not gray sexuality? Why not?

Ask Edge On Surrender And Control

SPEAKER_01 43:57

It's why not, why not part of the brand? Uh Well, Jamie, thank you so very much for being on Full Couch. Just had an absolute delight. Thank you so much, Edge. And now it's time for Ask Edge, the segment where I answer questions from all of you. If you have a question that you're curious about, about Leather Kink, about me, my life, please feel free to submit it. You may either leave me a voicemail at speakpipe.com slash leatheredge. That's speakpipe.com slash L T H R E D G E. Or you can send me an email at ask at fullcow.show, and both of those links are available in the show notes. This time we have one question, and it is from Kyle from Copenhagen.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Hey Edge. Kyle from Copenhagen here. Had a question for you. Uh as someone who leans more submissive, I'm always curious to get the dominant perspective. So I was curious if uh you enjoy the moment someone gives in uh or the process of getting them there. I have a feeling I already know the answer, but I'd love to hear you say it. Thanks, and love the podcast.

Final Thanks And How To Support

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Wow, what a really good question. And it's something I've actually I had to stop and think about this quite a bit, because I don't know that that's normally a schematic I use to organize my pleasure, but it's really interesting for me to look back on some of my hunting, shall we say, and think about it. And I think the answer I'm going to give is that there are two different pleasures. And part of it has to do with the process of moving someone to that point, and then part of it is when they surrender and what comes after. You know, I encounter a lot I encounter a lot of men, and I've been doing this for uh decades, and so I've chatted with a lot of men, and a lot of men who come to me very quickly, I have a sense of which box they belong in. There are certain patterns that come to desires, and particularly around submission, and so very quickly I can have a sense of who this person is and therefore also what it will take to get them from point A to point B. I think what I enjoy most is when someone comes to me and they don't fit into any of the boxes I'm used to, where they are different in some way when they bring something else to the table, that part of the process of me moving from point A to point B is figuring out who they are, that I don't already know who they are. So that's something I really enjoy. In general, like the process of moving men from point A to point B isn't always really hard. I I mean, I don't know. There's how do I answer this without sounding like a horribly egotistical person? What I will say is that many men find it quite natural to obey me, to kneel before me, to seek to please me. Like that is just their inclination, has to do with this particular energy and image I've cultivated around the archetype, which was not accidental, which has cost a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of work for me to move asymptotically to that image of the archetype. But having done that, um, most men, most men who are fitting in the boxes, find it really quite natural then to slip into that. So it's not usually a lot of work to move from point A to point B. It is um still some pleasure there. I think assuming I have that demisexual connection with a person where their submission is calling forth my dominance, and that is a thing, right? Like I don't, I don't just it's not like any man who comes to me, I'm ready to play with them. There's there's some they need to kind of summon something. And it has to do with their energy, their hunger, their submission. But assuming their submission calls forth my dominance, and assuming either they fit into one of the boxes or they are interestingly unique, and I have to figure out how to move them from point A to point B, assuming we've moved that whole process, then there's a whole different journey. That moment after the surrender, what it means is that I have earned their trust, I have convinced them they will be safe, and then a whole different set of work happens. And actually, I think that set of work is more interesting to me because it's about where do we go together? How can I introduce them to a new relationship with pain, with bondage, with stillness, with service, with submission? Where can I take them? And can I take them someplace new? Can I take them where I think they need to go or where they've expressed they need to go? So there are two pleasures. The pleasure of getting someone there is um usually smaller for me, because it's usually a shorter part of the overall journey, though there will be men who present me new challenges, give me new boxes, and I like that. At the end of the day, though, now that I'm reflecting on it, I think it's much more about the what happens after. Because that's when the real work happens. I've I've earned this initial sliver of intimacy, and then I can build on that foundation by what we do together in the playroom. Uh yeah, so thank you for asking. I actually had to rethink through that whole process just now. I had thought about an answer when I first heard the voicemail, but now I am thinking through, so that's my answer, and I'm sticking to it. Um, I hope you will consider submitting a question. I absolutely adore this segment and I think it adds a lot to the podcast, but it relies on you. So if you have any sort of question, please think about submitting it. And that's it for this episode. I am so grateful for all of you and for the fact that you listen to me and for the fact that you often will contact me in some form to tell me that you appreciate the podcast. All of that is deeply meaningful to me. So I hope you're having a really wonderful day, and um, we'll have another episode soon. And that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining me. Please consider subscribing, or you can send feedback to edge at fullcow.show. As always, may your leather journey be blessed.