Wild Souls
Welcome to the Wild Souls podcast. I’m your host, Cat Mansfield. Together, we will return to our wild instincts; reconnect to our body, to our connection to something greater, to the Truth of our divinity + infinite potential. We are here to have the raw conversations about all aspects of this human experience- the incredibly painful and the unbelievably pleasurable - the dark and the light, the death and the rebirth. This podcast is about holding space for the whole spectrum of human experience as we navigate each of our unique + divine healing journeys and step deeper into our soul’s calling. These conversations are meant to be a resource for deep self inquiry, a guidepost in cultivating a deep, unwavering self love, and ultimately, empower you to create a life so on purpose, so aligned with your authenticity, you can’t help but embody your wildest soul. Lets dive in.
Wild Souls
66. Conscious Connection & Elevating Your Partnerships w/ Dr. Robin Buckley
Imagine treating your relationship like a thriving business with co-founders dedicated to success. This mindset shift can lead to enduring connections, turning relationship challenges into opportunities for growth. In this episode, Dr. Robin explains the foundations of cognitive behavioral methodology & how to utilize the prefrontal cortex to 1) choose the most aligned partner, and 2) create a healthy, longterm relationship with that partner.
Join us as Dr. Robin Buckley, an esteemed expert in cognitive behavioral methodologies & executive coaching, reveals practical techniques to manage thoughts & emotions effectively. Whether you're single or partnered, this episode is for you.
Stay in touch with Dr. Robin Buckley:
https://www.instagram.com/drrobinbuckley/
https://www.drrobinbuckley.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-robin-buckley/
Interested in being a guest on the podcast? Send me a DM :)
Follow along on instagram <3
Welcome to the Holistic Hotties podcast. I'm your host, kat Mansfield. I'm a yoga and meditation teacher who's traveled around the world in search of all things healing and true. In searching for healing, in searching for truth, I uncovered the answers to all my ponderings. I grounded into peace amidst the chaos, I found myself. This podcast is about breathing life into who you already are. It's about remembering the truth of your power, the truth of your perfection. In each episode, we'll talk about the beliefs, the self-imposed limitations and the mindsets that are keeping us small, and how to cultivate safety in our bodies so that we can feel safe enough to be bigger, to take up more space and to truly and deeply love ourselves. On this journey together, day after day, we're choosing intention, we're choosing growth, we're choosing to dissolve our veils and breathe into our most authentic and thus most radiant selves. We're choosing to feel good naked let's dive in. To feel good naked, let's dive in. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Holistic Hotties, kat.
Speaker 1:Here this week, I sat down and talked to Dr Robin Buckley. Dr Robin earned her PhD in clinical psychology from Hofstra University, with specialized training in cognitive behavioral methodology and executive coaching. Her work as an expert in the field has been featured on multiple media platforms, including Entrepreneur Chief Authority Magazine, nike, and on the 2023 TED Talk stage. As an international speaker, robin focuses on the application of cognitive behavioral strategies to mental wellness and optimal functioning in the workplace and women's equity and empowerment. As a coach, robin applies cognitive behavioral tactics to help organizations, couples and individuals create strategic plans for professional and personal success. Her book Marriage Inc Step-by-Step Business Strategies for Success in your Relationship will be published in 2025.
Speaker 1:Dr Robin and I had sucha great conversation. We start out by talking about what cognitive behavioral methodologies are and how we can apply that to our healing and how we can show up in our relationships using this methodology so that we can start to communicate more clearly, so that we are operating from our prefrontal cortex instead of from our amygdala. It was such a great conversation. And then we talk about creating a mission statement within your partnership. So Nathan and I, after this conversation, sat down and began to work on our mission statement, and it's actually a lot more difficult than I anticipated and in fact, it opened up a portal of conversation between us about our vision for our relationship, our vision for our life and all of the conversation that we had as a result of sitting down to make our mission statement were so valuable, especially as we're on the brink of entering marriage.
Speaker 1:We're engaged, but as we look into the future of our marriage, into the future of our lives and our partnership, really having these conversations about what we envision, what we value, things that we, you know, kind of assumed we're on the same page about but hadn't clearly articulated to each other, it's just so important. So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation, that you take away something from this, and this isn't only for those of us who are in partnership. It's also for uncoupled individuals who are dating, who are calling in their partner, and how we can be more clear about who we are choosing as our partner. All right, let's dive in. Hello Robin, thank you so much for being on the podcast. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm great, Katherine. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm excited for our conversation and I would love to start with you telling us a little bit about what inspired you to study cognitive behavioral methodology and, if you can kind of break that down into a little bit more of layman's terms what it means, how it impacts the way that we operate as humans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so CBT or cognitive behavioral. It's traditionally known as cognitive behavioral therapy, but when it's in coaching it's obviously just methodology, because we're not doing therapy.
Speaker 2:What I love about it is that it's data driven, so we know it works because it's been researched so extensively and it works fast if clients engage with it. So we're not spending years with a person sitting on a couch talking. I mean that's lovely and that works for some people, but I like results and I like achieving goals and I tell my clients clients I want to become irrelevant in their life in that they don't need me anymore. They because they've learned the strategies and they can manage it on their own. And certainly if they need booster sessions they can come back. But ultimately they've got. They've got the toolbox. And when we think about cognitive behavioral methodology, it really is understanding how you can manage your thoughts so that it results in positive behaviors. And I don't mean positive like unicorns and rainbows, I mean the behaviors that you want.
Speaker 1:Every behavior.
Speaker 2:Every emotion we feel comes from a thought, and society doesn't train us that way. It trains us that emotions just happen and we can't always control our reactions and then we behave certain ways. And that's just simply not true, that if we learn specific ways to train our brain, to manage our brain, our brains become our allies rather than our adversaries. So it's really powerful and it's also really empowering to people who follow this methodology to people who followed this methodology.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, yeah, it sounds like we're harnessing that awareness so that we might stop, kind of some of the self-sabotage behaviors. And so what have you found like as you're working with I know you work mostly, or started working mostly, with women, but now also work a lot with couples so what have you found is like a method to pattern disrupt, to start to tune into some of these patterns and some of these cycles and some of these narratives that keep playing on loop and are creating like our outward life. What have you found as a way to notice that and pattern disrupt?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a great question. So there's so many strategies and the strategies are not just canned strategies that everybody is going to respond to.
Speaker 2:It really is tailored to what works best for individuals and we try them out, we figure out does this work? How did it achieve what you wanted? Was it too overwhelming? We kind of work through that, but the first place really is exactly what you wanted. Was it too overwhelming? We kind of work through that, but the first place really is exactly what you said.
Speaker 2:It's taking a pause or time to identify what the thoughts are that are undermining us and, honestly, this can be one of the hardest steps to take.
Speaker 2:Most of us, including myself, sometimes we just function and our thoughts just run rampant in us and we don't take the time to realize, OK, what is actually going on. You know, we react to our spouse or we yell at our coworker or we are burst out crying in the middle of the grocery store and it's like, OK, what isn't just the topic, which I think most people can settle on like, oh, I'm just unhappy about, fill in the blank, it's okay, but what is the actual concrete thought that created that reaction or that emotion? And that is challenging because we're just not taught to do that in society. And when we don't do that and I always, you know I talk to my clients a lot about the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex. I always, you know, I talk to my clients a lot about the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex and I said, if we don't do that with our brains, our brains run around like a toddler on caffeine where it's doing its thing and we have no ability to wrangle it.
Speaker 2:And with cognitive behavioral methodology it allows you to, because you really start to pay attention to what is the thought that creates that. And if you still want to have that emotion, have that. I tell my clients all the time you can feel anything you want for as long as you want, but at some point, when it's not serving you or you don't want to feel that way or you don't want to react that way, you don't have to, as long as you then put in the time to identify the thought and put in your strategies.
Speaker 1:Totally and it feels empowering in my body of like. We can choose to hone these practices and cultivate that awareness and, like you said, it's one of the hardest things. I mean that's a lot of what my meditation practice and yoga practice have gifted me. Is that moment, that pause, that like point of intersection where I can be like oh, this is the belief or the thought that's that I am projecting into all of my interactions, into all of my you know, it's what's creating all of my emotions here and I get that because so I do yoga and meditation as well and I love both practices.
Speaker 2:But you know, some people just are not. They don't want to do either of those. It just isn't their thing. And what I like about the methodology that I use is that it's based on science so I can teach my clients okay, here's what's going on in your brain, here's what you're actually doing when you do these strategies, and it isn't a theoretical concept, it is. You are making physical changes in your brain when you do such and such. You are triggering this part of your brain when you use this strategy, and that resonates with a lot of people, because you know, a lot of people have tried meditation or yoga or whatever it is. But this is absolutely undeniable, science-based changes that they can make by developing a practice, just like you and I develop our yoga practice same idea.
Speaker 1:Totally and and I, there's so much that's coming out right now, like in the, in the space of kind of blending science and spirituality, and and really, when you're, when you're dropping into meditation, what's happening in the brain and how you are accessing the subconscious and the brainwaves are changing.
Speaker 1:And it's so exciting because there's a part of us that is more willing to accept, it's more willing to devote our time and ourselves to these practices, because there's that tangible evidence, evidence. And in my practices what I've noticed is, as I start to become aware of those thoughts and beliefs that you're talking about, a lot of it stems from childhood or stems from beliefs that we orchestrated or constructed while in childhood. And so I guess what I'm wondering is the difference between that feels more like therapeutic right, like you're sitting down, you're diving into the past in an attempt to change, I guess, the present, or change the outcome of the future, versus what you do with clients, more of like the coaching lens. And can you dive into a little bit of the difference between that therapy lens and more of the coaching lens?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. So there's a lot of overlap. I won't deny that. You know, one of the things that I say there's some clear lines between therapy and coaching, and one for me is always that when I work with individuals or couples and they bring up recent or current addiction, recent or current abuse, recent or current infidelity, and then recent or current loss of a significant person, those are topics that really are best served in therapy. You start there because it's going to get into some of the background. It's going to get into some of the really painful trauma that's involved with all four of those phenomenon. So therapy to me is absolutely for those really traumatic situations. It's. I don't think it's appropriate in coaching, nor do I think that people, everybody who calls themselves a coach, has any kind of training or education to manage that kind of trauma. So I always tell people please, please, look into the background of your coaches.
Speaker 2:I can make sure that they are well-trained in some level of understanding the brain and that connection. Coaching and therapy can do this. I think there, my perspective is therapy does spend a lot of time in the past, and that's a challenge for me personally, because my perspective is you can't change the past. There's nothing you can do to change the past. You can understand it, you can identify it, but do you want to live in the past or do you want to live in the present and then make your plans for the future? And that's why coaching is always aligned.
Speaker 2:Even after, even though I got my PhD in clinical psych and did a lot of that traditional work, coaching was what I gravitated to, because it was so proactive and it was so much about prevention rather than intervention, which is where I see therapy more often. I wish therapy was different, but our traditional model of therapy is really rooted in past situations and intervention. So when I talk with clients to make sure that they first of all don't fit into one of those four phenomenon categories, it's about okay, do you want to spend time really diving into past situations? And some couples do. Some couples are like yep, I want to, I want to things, and I'm like great, I have a list of people, Cause that doesn't even, isn't even how I want to spend my time as a professional.
Speaker 2:I want to work with people who are like this is where we're at, we're not satisfied with where we're at, or or if it's an individual where I'm at and I want to make sure my future is addressed in a planful way, with strategy and with a roadmap, and that's what makes coaching just fun.
Speaker 1:And I'm curious what comes up. I'm wondering so, as we talk about, as we start to talk about implementing strategy, right as we're let's say, you're working with a client or a couple and we start to talk about strategy with them, that requires a certain element of what feels like profound self-awareness. Right For you to be able to have the foresight of, to anticipate how you will react? Or, or, I guess, yeah, to really identify the patterns that you're already playing within, and do you find that a lot of individuals are willing to go there to like, to own up, to like? Yeah, okay, everything that's happening in my life right now is because I'm saying yes to it.
Speaker 2:I do think that's what differentiates people who are more interested in engaging in therapy and coaching. At least in my experience, my coaching clients, or potential coaching clients, are exactly what you said. They are ready to say, yep, this is not working for me, I have done it this way and it's resulted in me not achieving you know, whether it's goals or where I want to get to in life. So they are really ready to do the work and dedicate the time to make that plan. Now I will say that I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think the majority of clients who start doing coaching know what the plan is. It's just like I'm not happy, I don't like this, we're not happy, but they know that they want that to change and that's what becomes the impetus for the work that we do. And then, over time, as I help them reduce some of the emotionality that can come up in conversation, whether it's an individual or a couple, whether it's about their career or about their relationship. When we reduce the emotionality and they can think logically and strategically, then that's when they become more active in building their plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's dive more into that, this duality of emotionality versus more of a rational, practical mind the one that we are going to be creating these strategies from and the one that we should definitely have at the table when we're thinking about our future. But the one that's most often not really invited to the party. It's always the emotional mind that's kind of running the show, especially when it comes to a romantic relationship. So let's dive into that duality a little bit more and how you've seen, like in your practice and in your own life, like emotions running the show and what happens from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Emotions running the show is rarely a benefit, even if they're positive emotions even positive emotions can be can overwhelm us and we stop thinking logically. I mean think about you know a basic example, us and we stop thinking logically. I mean think about a basic example College student who's out having a great time at a party. They take a drink, they take a second drink, they're having a good time, they're feeling good.
Speaker 2:They just want to keep it going and they're not productive. So that is about as primal as I can get with that clarification. So, whether it's positive emotions or negative or dysfunctional emotions, they don't allow us to really make decisions that are based on what's best for us and aligns with whatever the plan is. Not that we have to guide everything in our lives by a plan. I mean, if you want to go have fun at a party, fine, as long as at the party you're making choices that still keeps you on track. It's not going to, you know, waylay you for three days. You're not going to, you know, be making choices that you're going to regret for God forbid hours or years. So what you're talking about, what you referenced, there's two really specific parts of the brain and hopefully your audience can hold on for the 60 seconds. I'll do my quick neuroscience. Yeah, we'll love this.
Speaker 2:There's the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex. Prefrontal cortex is right behind your forehead and the amygdala is buried deep in our brains. It is the most primitive part of our brains. It's called the reptilian brain for specific reasons and it's been there since our inception as organisms. Our prefrontal cortex developed over time as we kind of evolved into our humanness.
Speaker 2:The amygdala is is something that is so inherent to being human. It's a lot of our emotions. It regulates good and bad emotions, but one of the predominant roles of the amygdala is to keep us safe. So when we were cave people, it would make us afraid of fire so we would avoid the danger. It would make us afraid of the dark because there's saber-toothed tigers in the dark. It would. It would make us afraid of fire so we would avoid the danger. It would make us afraid of the dark because there's saber tooth tigers in the dark. It would. It would do all those things to protect us. But unfortunately the amygdala has not evolved very much and now it makes us afraid of things that are not life threatening. Getting up to do a presentation, going out on a first date, having an uncomfortable conversation those are all scary and uncomfortable but they're not life-threatening and we really don't need the amygdala to do its evolutionary fight, flight or freeze in those situations, but it still does.
Speaker 2:On the flip side, the prefrontal cortex, which, as geeky as this sounds, if I had a favorite part of the brain, that would be my favorite. I'm biased, but the prefrontal cortex is all about emotional regulation, strategy, logic, data, reality and the magic happens because these two parts of the brain can't function simultaneously. So when the amygdala is crazy and running us, the prefrontal cortex shuts down. So in my very light example, that's what makes us have the third drink when we said I was only going to have one, because the amygdala is saying come on, we're having a good time.
Speaker 2:Or yes, let me get into the car with people I don't know which would be horrible, but the amygdala hopefully kicks in and says this is a bad idea, this is not safe, and it pulls us back and that's great in those situations. But when the amygdala is firing, for good or bad reasons, the prefrontal cortex is not engaged. So our strategy, our logic, our rational thinking is really limited, if not completely non-existent. Thankfully, the reverse is also true. When we get our PFC, our prefrontal cortex, engaged and we actually actively engage it, it shuts down the amygdala.
Speaker 2:So our anxiety, our self-doubt, our uncertainty, our imposter syndrome, all of those negative what-ifs that really can ruminate and really overwhelm us, those are shut down and that, to me, is the best part of the work that I do is I teach people how to trigger their prefrontal cortex so they can think in ways that help them and benefit them. It doesn't deaden you, it doesn't numb you to your feelings, it just allows you to lead with your prefrontal cortex and hopefully then your amygdala comes in with emotions that actually benefit. Whatever the plan is.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thank you for that description. The example that comes up for me when you said, when you're explaining that, and when you say, like, what we're getting to is so that we can trigger the prefrontal cortex is, for example, like if I'm, if I want to take a big leap in my business, and my amygdala comes and is telling me all the reasons why I shouldn't, all of the ways that I'm going to fail, all the things I'm, you know, I'm going to be homeless, I can't do it, blah, blah, blah. Then the prefrontal cortex might come in and say, okay, but what is actually the worst case scenario? Like a question that's tangible, that I can legitimately kind of walk through and be like hey, worst case scenario if I legitimately lost everything, I could still move home, I would still have a roof over my head, I would still, I would still have my friends, I would still have food, I would still, you know, I would be okay, and then from that place I can then move forward without being, you know, in fear and terror, like paralyzed.
Speaker 2:And that's the trick. It's for many people. When they start to exist out of anxiety, fear or related emotions, they don't take that next step of triggering their prefrontal cortex.
Speaker 2:And unless you do, it won't happen. It doesn't happen automatically. Automatically, I mean it can for people who have been doing this for years and they've trained their brains to go right to that that part of of triggering and engaging the prefrontal cortex. But again, for most people they get caught in their amygdala reactions and then that's where the rumination comes from, that's where the sleepless nights come from, that's where the panic attacks come from, and so when we can learn to get to our prefrontal cortex through actively and strategically engaging it, that's where everything starts to work better. When I've watched clients, I love watching them on the video screen because I can see in session when I teach them this and walk them through different scenarios. It is a visual transformation that they calm down. I've had people sobbing and as soon as I walk them through strategies to trigger their prefrontal cortex, they stop crying and they're able to talk, and then it builds and the momentum builds and it's really exciting to watch them be able to do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds beautiful and I'm curious what instigated your first year work with women and utilizing you know, this knowledge and this methodology, and then the pivot to, it seems like more with couples. I know you still do both, but it seems like you're focused a little bit more on couples nowadays. So talk about that journey, because I eventually want to dive a lot more into the you know, couples and romantic aspect of this.
Speaker 2:Well, I can't take the credit. Powerful woman who had very, really kind of outside of the box perspectives on women and women's power.
Speaker 2:So I was raised by one of these women and my sister's like this I'm like this and whether it's genetic or teaching, or of loving combination of both. So ever since I can remember, I've always thought about women and girls. I've written a book about that, specific to girls. I love working with females and one of the reasons is because women are trained by society and cultures to downplay their power, to ignore you know, to be humble and to be quiet and to be submissive, and that is all BS. I just worked with a client this afternoon new client and she said you know, I said so. You bring in your resume, you bring in this, you bring in your performance reviews and you you just hand it to them and say this is why I think I'm a good candidate. She's like oh, I don't like, I really don't like boasting. I'm like that's not boasting, that is data that you didn't even. I mean. It's just you're saying this is what I deserve. You're simply saying here's all the data of why you should hire me.
Speaker 2:And she had a really hard time with it, because that is not how women are taught to think and to act.
Speaker 2:So to me. I love working with men, but there is something so exciting when I see women just stepping into not their power. I mean that's easy to say, but who they really are. That is just holding them back and getting embedded in their amygdala and then retraining it. So no, now we think with our prefrontal cortex which is just hey, this is who I am, this is what it is, I don't need to downplay it.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's such a beautiful. I want you to keep going, but I just want to double click on all of that. Yes to women awakening to their power and allowing for themselves to be powerful. It's, it's like, I mean, it goes all the way back to the witch room. It's a whole thing.
Speaker 2:It's a huge part of my like yeah, inquiry right now, but continue on, yeah, no it's absolutely true that I just you know when I say that you know women are powerful. It's just sometimes we're not, we are not not allowed to be, or we succumb to these absolutely irrational beliefs about women and women's power, and now more than ever we can step into it more fully. I listen to a great podcast, Wiser Than Me. I recommend it to all of your listeners. It is one of the best. It's basically an interview with women over age 70 and how they're powerful, and I just listened to one about and her name is escaping me, of course, but she led a lot of the protests around farm workers in California back in the day and she said if women aren't going to do it, there's going to be no peace in the world, because women are driven by harmony and community and peace, and that's not their sole purpose, nor is it their sole job but it's like a natural byproduct of our being, in our like full embodied feminine.
Speaker 1:It's a natural byproduct.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's one of our strengths. So, and the couple switch came because, as I worked with all these amazing women, you know these are executives and c-suite and small business owners who are starting out and, of course, eventually their relationships would come up, because, you know, it dovetails when we're happy in one area, we'll be satisfied the other, and vice versa, hopefully. And I kept trying to get them to a place where they could have that strategy in their relationships and I realized they were doing these amazing things in their professional lives. And so I started asking well, how do you manage conflict at work? How do you, you know, manage a team of 20? How do you have difficult conversations? How do you tell people, you know, how do you delegate responsibility? They could, without a pause, tell me how they did at work, and then, when I'd say, well, do you do that in your relationship? How do you manage conflict? And they're like, oh no, that's different. I'm like it's not. Actually, it's exactly the same thing. So I'm a big advocate of not reinventing the wheel. So tell me what you do well at work. And now let's put this into your personal life, whether it's managing your family or spouse, whatever.
Speaker 2:And the more I thought about it, I was like, okay, if we started pulling some of these what apparently are disparate concepts from the business world and applying them in our personal lives, could it achieve the same success? So I started experimenting and I started creating a framework around this and, oh my goodness, it absolutely does. It's easily translatable and you don't need an MBA from Harvard to understand this work. These are not I don't have a business degree. I've learned and I've read over time but these are basic concepts, you know a mission statement, delegation of roles and responsibilities, key performance indicators and they work in our relationships in a way that definitely triggers our prefrontal cortex, which then allows us to get the results we want. Instead of sitting down to have a conversation, our amygdala takes over and now we're all emotional, and I don't mean us as women, I mean us in a relationship male, female non-binary, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah us as humans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as humans, exactly so. Do you want to keep functioning out of your amygdala or do you want to have a strategy for your relationship? Easy question to answer, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you frame it like that it makes so much sense because and especially with the foundational knowledge of what you shared about the prefrontal cortex and that triggering that needs to happen. That makes so much sense Because when we analyze our relationships through the lens of a business, through the lens of like what's the mission statement? What are the KPIs? Yeah, I'm interested in how some of these things translate, like what are some examples of KPIs and things like that. But when you, when you look at it through that lens, I see how it triggers that prefrontal cortex of like we're. We're moving from that esoteric, emotional like, like I said earlier, kind of tethered to our childhood wounds and those cyclical patterns, and we're moving from that space down more into the tangible, like material, like what's the word? Like articulatable articulatable, you know, like we can articulate it to our partner in a way that feels less overwhelming than trying to articulate or process or understand the generations or decades of trauma that might be in the emotional aspect of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it becomes more concrete when I have a couple in my virtual office and they're saying, well, we've lost some of that love. I'm like, okay, let's operationalize. What does love mean? What does it look like to you? Well, you know, I want my spouse to pay attention to me. Okay, what does that actually mean? What does it look like? I break it down, we, we, we get into the minutia. So then they're defining well, that would mean that you know, when I come home at the end of the day and I come in to say hi, that he or she stops for three seconds and just looks at me. That is very concrete and that is very. Now. You've you've told me exactly what it means to you to feel loved.
Speaker 2:And we can do this with everything in our relationship. We can break it down so that it is so specific that again, it's either a choice Okay, I'm going to do those things or I'm not. I'm not really committed to this relationship if I'm not going to do at least 80% of the things that you know work for my, my, my, significant other. So it's, it's really. I find it really fun because we're not getting caught up in what happened three years ago.
Speaker 2:And if that's an important conversation and I've had couples who said you know, we do want to dive into the past, I'm like that's, that's great. Okay, glad you know that. Let me get you some names, because if that's important to you and this isn't the right space, just as you, you know you and I both know that not every therapist or every coach works for everybody and methodologies have to work for a couple for there to be any results. You know, for me, I, I, I know that that the way I help couples can work really quickly if it works for the couple and it's nothing about the framework, it's nothing about me or them, it's just it has to be a good match.
Speaker 1:And I assume you can apply the same strategy or a way of working with a couple, no matter where they are on their journey, right? So do you work with couples who are, like I guess, more in the infancy of their, of their commitment, like, let's say, engaged or newly newlyweds? Yes, you do. Okay, interesting, and so is that more of like it's more preventative, right, it's more of the let's be on the same page from day one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say it's more preventative, but I do see most of the work I do as preventative. So even couples who have been married for decades and they're just in a rut, to me it's preventing them from ending up divorced, ideally. I've had couples that it didn't work out and then the coaching switches to a business strategy for the dissolution of their relationship and making it an amicable or at least civil divorce instead of antagonistic. So I have worked with couples from the very beginning when they're thinking about moving in together, when they're first engaged, when they're first married, all the way through.
Speaker 2:Couples who have been married for decades and they're just not achieving what they want in their relationship. And then I never consciously work with couples who are about to enter a divorce. But again, sometimes couples are just so far gone that the relationship is not going to be fixable and so now they want, you know, now when, once they make that decision in coaching, now I can help them make their divorce as as strategic as possible and I don't mean strategic like who gets what, I mean strategic. They end on a note that they still feel, you know, positive about their decision. I also do work with with individuals who are dating and who? Yeah, I was gonna ask a little more strategy around their dating relationship.
Speaker 1:so it's fun, yeah, and, and I'm curious so what? What would you advise someone? Let's say he's listening, who's single and they're dating and they they've gotten clear on what they want, but they maybe keep finding themselves in the same dynamic or calling in the same type of partner who's missing a specific love language or missing you know something, just missing that one thing. They find themselves in the same dynamic. How do you work with somebody, how do you advise them in that, in that part of their life?
Speaker 2:It's so much fun because it's a lot more directive Um, meaning that they have all my clients have homework to do and they work on things, but it's something that the individuals who are in the dating phase it seems to be much more concentrated in their work. So, first and foremost, it's making an avatar. So in business it's called an ICA, an ideal customer avatar, and it provides a framework of what a business, who a business, is going to target in terms of marketing and where they're going to spend their money and where they're going to spend their time. So, with uncoupled individuals, it's an ideal companion avatar. So same initial, same acronym, but different spin, same idea, though it's creating who ideally you want and I don't mean please don't make it like I need all of this and it needs to be perfect- we're not going to, we're not achieving that.
Speaker 1:Five, seven and brunette Left earlobe has to be.
Speaker 2:It is just what, what do you really want to look for? And again, this isn't just like okay, now here's my template. It is engaging your prefrontal cortex not to just keep repeating myself but it allows your prefrontal cortex to say, okay, that's the type of person we're looking for, and it primes your brain to start paying attention to that potential. It just, you know, like when we go to look for a new car and I decided years ago I wanted a jeep, and now, then I saw jeeps everywhere, and it wasn't because there was this all sudden influx of jeep owners. It's simply, I told my brain, I want a jeep. It works the same when it comes to relationships. It doesn't guarantee it, but it gets your brain to start just in, sometimes subconsciously, sometimes consciously, start looking for that individual. And then, once you have the ICA, part of that process is developing your list of negotiables and non-negotiables, because too many people when they're dating, they see someone bright and shiny.
Speaker 2:And they're like that's fine, I can overlook that or I can do that, and those are the things that are going to bite you in the butt later on in the relationship. So you come up with your list of things that are absolutely non-negotiable. I'll use an example from my personal life that I write about in my book. So I could not be in a relationship with someone who was mean, especially to people who are taking care of us. So restaurant workers, custodians, secretaries, people who are the backbone of us. So restaurant workers, custodians, secretaries, like people who are the backbone of so many organizations, that would just be a non-negotiable for me. I couldn't handle it. It would be embarrassing, it would be horrifying, it would tell me a lot about their character not negotiable.
Speaker 2:So luckily, my husband is really generous and wonderful to people. Really generous and wonderful to people. He one of my negotiables. I love yoga. I mean I would do yoga over any other activity or exercise. Well, not activity, but exercise. He hates yoga. I mean really hates yoga. I have to bribe him and I have lots of different ways to bribe him and he will do it sporadically with me but he's not as excited about it as I am. That's negotiable, I don't need someone to do yoga with me for me to love. It's not he doesn't. He's not as excited about as I am. That's that's negotiable.
Speaker 2:I don't need someone to do yoga with me for me to love it. So if he does it once in a while, if he never did it with me, that would be okay with me. But having a clearly defined what are things that I can concede to and what are things that I absolutely will not allow, that keeps it clear so that when you go out and meet someone bright and shiny and looks good on paper, you actually can check your mental list or, if you have I've had clients keep their physical list with me and if there are things on that non-negotiable list, then don't waste your time or money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I'm engaged actually, and but it brings me back to when I was dating a lot and calling in my partner and creating that list, creating my negotiables, lot of attention and the ability or the willingness to really dive in and ask myself why each thing is on each side of that list.
Speaker 1:And and I'm sure yeah, I'm sure you work with your clients to do the same, because what I, what I found, was there was this um, over romanticizing of some things on the list when and it was this like attempt for me to bypass the power that I had within myself to give myself those things right. It's like or, for example, I want to call in someone who goes backpacking because I want to go backpacking, but I don't believe in the ability of myself taking myself backpacking, like I need somebody to take me, as opposed to well, could I just take myself backpacking, you know? And then like if I met somebody who didn't, you know. So it offers, it invites us to have that deeper level of self-inquiry of like. Level of self-inquiry of like is this an authentic desire that I have for my partner, or is this an egoic desire or a desire that I have coming from a place of disempowerment?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think our personal board of directors really helps with that. So when I work with uncoupled individuals around this, I usually ask I do ask them to do one thing that a lot of people resist, which is okay. Now I want you to take your avatar, your ICA and your list of negotiables and non-negotiables and I want you to run it past who are your closest friends and family. And that's your personal board of directors. It does not need to be extensive. So my personal board, I mean not if I was dating actually, my husband was my friend for 20 years before we got married, so I would talk to him, I would talk to my sister and I would talk to one other friend of mine who is there, my like my trifecta. Those are my three go to's. They would be the people that, in a dating situation, I would run past my lists and my avatar, because and I, the self-awareness is so important, catherine, but sometimes there's just a limit to how truthful, we are with ourselves Totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our personal board of directors can be the ones that hopefully say do you really love backpacking that much, or is that just something that you used to do? Right, the last time you went backpacking? Or you know is that really important, or God? I remember this one person you dated and one thing you loved about him or her was that thing.
Speaker 2:And like they become your foil, almost to call you out or point out things that you might have forgotten or you've overlooked because you're trying to get to, I don't know, an unrealistic ideal. So, having you know, having that time to reflect yourself, and then having those external voices who know you really well, as well as you know yourself, and in some cases in a better or different way, that can provide again additional data for your conceptualization and ultimately for your prefrontal cortex.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that addition, I love that caveat and I love the conceptualizing of a board of directors being you're just like try people. I mean, okay, call me out on my blind spots, go for it, do it, show me where I'm missing.
Speaker 2:I mean, the board's job in business is to say, okay, the CEO is running things, but did we think about this? Or do we look at it this way, or have we considered this Like that's an important piece of really developing a comprehensive approach to your personal, your, your personal dating or life or relationship?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see that let's pivot into couples, let's say they've been. Well, you know, I'm selfishly curious about, like the milestone before you embark on the big commitment. Right, you're in the engagement before you fully commit, I mean you're already committed. But you know, before you sign the papers, dot the I's, cross the T's, do all the things and it's, I mean, it's been important to me.
Speaker 1:It's funny, actually, growing up, my dad had a very similar framework for working in relationships.
Speaker 1:He actually had a paper that he made and he printed out for me when I was I don't even know, probably 16, had my first boyfriend, and it was questions like these, like getting really clear on our money values and getting really clear on, you know, how we relate to family and vacation and all of these different aspects of life. And I remember him giving it to me and me, just like rolling my eyes. I was, you know, a teenager and being like that is the least sexy piece of paper I've ever seen, like you expect me to bring this on a date or bring this to a like a potential lover, and be like let's get on the same page about our future, and he just there's. It's a lot. It reminds me very much of the energy that you're in the framework that you're bringing to this conversation, which I love, and now in my you know, now that I'm 30, I can look back and I see how wise it is. You know someone who's had more years, who's been through multiple divorces, looking back and being like please use this.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:So when working with you know couples whether they've been together, it doesn't even matter how long you know couples whether they've been together, it doesn't even matter how long. But in that commitment and working to get on the same page about things, how do you, I guess? How do you start? What are some of the unsexy questions that we should be thinking about?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I always start and I get that a lot, catherine where people are like Robin, like relationships are different, like they're about love and attraction, and I'm like, yeah, those are part of it, but those are the bells and whistles.
Speaker 2:If you don't have a foundation, those bells and whistles are going to fade and your foundation is what contains you through the ebbs and flows. You know, I use the analogy like I love ice cream. I mean, I love ice cream, but I would better create an ice cream making business because of my love of ice cream. I would have a business plan, I would have a strategy, I would have the conversations with resources in order to create a solid foundation for that, and then all my great flavors of ice cream.
Speaker 2:Those are the bells and whistles. So same thing with relationships. Love and sexual attraction are just. Those are the bonuses, but the platform it starts on is what those, those grow from. So the unsexy. I always, with every couple I always start with, I always ask them you know, tell me what, how you understand a mission statement, what are mission statements for? And they can tell me. They can recite all the good reasons for an organization of a mission statement and it's about you know, direction and unification and just having a similar, you know guide, basically a perspective. So and then my my challenge question is okay, so what is your relationship mission statement? And I got to tell you 95% of couples do not have one and the 5% that say they do don't really because usually I get, we just know it, it's in our heads, and I want you to write down what your mission statement is. And, oh my gosh, it is usually, at best it's loosely connected and at worst it's completely divergent.
Speaker 2:So they kind of look at each other like, wait, wait a minute, what? And I like this is why I asked the question. So the first step is helping them build a unified, you know, clear, mission statement around their relationship, and it has the same benefits as when a business has a mission statement. And then we work on vision statements as well, which is more about where the relationship is really going. So it's not sexy necessarily. I mean, I do a lot of work helping them with their actual sensual and sexual lives as well, but we're not going to get to that until we actually know what your platform is, because every time that couple and what I've watched couples in relationships do is they will start to use their mission statement as it should be, which is a dynamic tool.
Speaker 2:So one couple I worked with they were going away for the holidays years ago and they were going to the husband's family, who were boisterous and loud and a big family, and she was an intense introvert. So she remembers getting more and more agitated. She was getting frustrated that her husband wasn't picking up on this and so she said, dr Robin, I went into the bathroom, I pulled out my mission statement, because I encourage people to keep them on them, whether on their phones or in their wallets, whatever she's like. And I sat there reading it over and over again until my brain realized, if I go out there and react the way I was going to react, that would not hold true to our mission statement.
Speaker 2:It would not align with our mission statement and so she took time to again engaged her prefrontal cortex and she was able to go out there and be in a place where her behaviors and emotions supported their mission statement, which supported the relationship. That's incredibly powerful, incredible. That woman didn't go with her amygdala, she took the time to engage that part of her brain which aligned with what the couple really wanted, and that, to me, is just. It's really fun and it's really powerful to listen to when couples get why they're doing these things and how they can actually use them in a very, very dynamic way right in the moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels like a very powerful tool because even just, I think, at the beginning of a relationship, when it is, when you're wrapped up in the lust and the love and the hormones and and endorphins and even just the youthfulness of it, right, like, even if you've moved out of the honeymoon stage, maybe you don't have kids yet or you haven't gone through a death in the family or you haven't, you know, had to overcome some of those larger obstacles that life has in store for us, like inevitably has in store for us. And so our mission statement if we aren't clear at the beginning and really dictating it with each other, crafting it with each other, then it becomes wishy-washy, right, it becomes a product of the circumstance and it becomes like it might start out as something a little bit, you know, like my mission is to love the other person, but that's not enough.
Speaker 2:It's not clear and it's not concrete. You know what? And I jokingly sort of jokingly say you know, the Homer channel and Disney have taught us that love is a. You know, you wish and hope and pray that a relationship will work. I'm like holy mackerel I would never wish and hope and pray my car would go away. Or, you know, a road trip went a certain way. It's just a general plan of where you're going and that your car needs gas, and yet our relationships are just like whimsy. Yes, that's the word.
Speaker 2:No concrete planning. We spent the statistics. I don't know if they'll come to me. The average couple spends, on average, 250 to 300 hours planning their wedding, which is typically anywhere from four to eight hours and upwards of $20,000 to God knows $100,000 on their one-day event.
Speaker 2:And I always wonder how many couples actually come close to that in planning their marriage, their commitment, before they're actually in it? And my guess at least, based on the divorce rates, not many. Because we get caught up, like you said, love, lust, the details of the wedding, which are super exciting, but that's not what's going to sustain the marriage. So what's the plan? What is the actual plan to make this marriage a lifelong? And you, you plan I mean the loose plan. Of course we're going to be together forever and my question is how, how do you know that? How are you going to make that happen? How are you going to make sure you do everything in your power to do this?
Speaker 2:And a lot of times I've heard katherine. People are like well, marriages are hard. And I I cringe when I hear that. Me too brain in the worst way. Yeah, marriages are hard. And then your brain will be like oh, this is hard and it will be hard. Marriage and relationships are not hard. They take five things diligence, dedication, attention, nurturement and strategy. Those five things guarantee, almost guarantee I shouldn't say guarantee, but come pretty close to ensuring that your relationship is going to be long-term and satisfying with those five things. But if you wish pray and hope and satisfying with those five things.
Speaker 1:But, if you wish, pray and hope it's not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, a couple things I want to double click on. I mean, I think anyone who's listening, who has that like romantic kind of naivete about them which is definitely me, who grew up watching the Disney movies, grew up watching the you know the notebook and the rom coms and just being like love conquers all you know and like that's it. And then you know, as I get older and I've witnessed multiple divorces just within my like parental figures, just within, you know, my, my mom and dad and their subsequent marriages after each other. And with that comes the yeah, just alarming understanding that love is, is an evolving is, is an evolving.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's an evolving force. It's not simply an emotion, it's not even just an action. It's an evolving force and it's dynamic and there's so much at play, whether it be each other's, like cyclical spiritual journeys and the wounds that we're here to evolve or the obstacles that life throws at us, like I said, and love isn't like going to be enough. There has to be that wherewithal of like what happens when we feel like we're drowning, you know, or when we need a life. We need the what's it called the life vest, or the thing you grab onto in the water, life preserver, yeah, whatever the thing they throw to you when you're drowning in the water.
Speaker 1:Um, like we need that, and so this mission statement feels like that's exactly what it serves us of, like this lighthouse when we're in choppy water and it's dark, and and that experience that you shared about your client felt so beautiful to visualize, in that it is this lighthouse. It's like we can come back if we need to separate ourselves for a moment, like tune back into what the mission, where, the, where the lighthouse is in our body and then move forward. It just feels monumental in terms of what you can avoid and what's funny is like coming back to that unsexy, you know, thread of like when you're having these conversations, when you're doing this work with your significant other, inherently it creates more intimacy, inherently that that physical attraction will most likely, like become greater as a result.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I think it's. You know it's not. And again, I love the critics. I really do, because I love having the conversations not to convince people but just to support what I know. And you know a lot of people will say, well, so we just are supposed to ignore the problems? I'm like I never, would ever say that. That's actually a very bad strategy. Example that I gave you know what it allowed is she was able, the wife was able, to get through the family dynamic, the family party, and then later on she and her husband had a conversation when they weren't surrounded by family and when she was calmer and when his emotions were a little more neutral, because his emotions were really super, over the top, positive and high, because he was around his family members. So they were able to have a conversation that wasn't based on a reaction or defensiveness on the husband's part.
Speaker 2:It was based on you know what? I was really uncomfortable in this situation. And then he applauded her use of the mission statement. According to them, he pulled out his mission statement, or their mission statement, his copy, when they were having the conversation so he could make sure that what he was saying and he said it helped me not be reactive. It helped me not be defensive because here she was using it, being vulnerable then to share and not avoid it or downplay it. It was like that really didn't work for me. How are we going to change this in the future? How are we going to make it work for both of us? And I just love the power that it puts back into the hands of the couple instead of just being run by their amygdala and their emotional reactions, which I do truly know undermines couples so much. And it doesn't have to.
Speaker 1:And it really feels like each individual is getting back on the same team. Right, it's like like we are moving towards the same objective here we're exactly. We just need to you know translate what each of us is experiencing, so that we're speaking the same language yeah, it becomes a true partnership. I mean mean, people throw that, oh my partner.
Speaker 2:we're in a partnership, but what is that Like?
Speaker 1:how do you know?
Speaker 2:it's a partnership and with concrete tools and strategies, you can say well, I know it's a partnership because here are all the things we do to make sure you know we have regular check-ins, we do our, you know, annual reviews, we do. There's so many things that are just fun to watch couples implement do.
Speaker 1:There's so many things that are just fun to watch couples implement. Actually, the day that my fiance and I got engaged, a few hours after, we had this whole conversation about that. Platitude of marriage is hard and we were both challenging it and it's one of those things that we dove into it and we realized how deeply ingrained that was in both of us. And I think as soon as, like, the ring was presented, it's like, oh shit, we're about to enter this hard portal, Like it's about to enter you know, and and that's not to say again that that life doesn't offer obstacles, and doesn't you know that life doesn't become hard and messy at times. Life doesn't become hard and messy at times and the partnership or the marriage doesn't have to be, like, the source of difficulty.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, life might challenges, but the relationship doesn't have to present challenges. And if there are challenges then they're easily workable Because, again, there's the same clarity of where we're getting to, there's the same dedication to those five variables that I talked about. So it's just a matter of, okay, this doesn't feel good, let's fix it. And I love that. Like my husband has a great phrase and all through our friendship, before we were married he would say it, and now it's like a mantra in our house, like there's always a solution. There just is. It might not be the ideal solution, but there is always a solution. And when you have that dedication to a relationship and that perspective of, okay, there's solutions. And now we have strategies, because it's great to say, oh, there's always a solution. But how are you going to find it? How are you going to find it? How are you going to work together to get to that?
Speaker 1:solution.
Speaker 2:That's what makes it you know that connection you were talking about and, again, that true partnership, because you know both of you are working in the same direction. So there's so many things that couples can do that we can borrow from business and apply so so well to achieve relationships that are satisfying and enduring and and just really everything people want them to be. It's possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with that perspective. Yeah, that feels very, you know, just true in my body and and just like an empowering truth to choose and empowering reality to live in of, like everything I want is possible and it doesn't have to be this like trudging uphill. So, anyone who's listening, I invite you to dive into some self-inquiries to how that statement lives in your body, where it lives, how deeply ingrained it is and how we, how you, orient around relationship. If it has to be hard, it's just a reality that you've subscribed to.
Speaker 1:When, when, maybe you don't have to when, when really you can start to question whether it has to be that and and just choose a different. You know different adjective. Relationships aren't hard. They they're require dedication, or they're like, they're require consistency, like it doesn't have to be one-dimensional. Relationships are hard.
Speaker 2:That's actually one of the strategies I also use with couples is when they're trying to transition from that mindset of marriage or relationship is hard. I talk to them about the five variables. I'm like let's start with one, pick one Dedication, diligence, attention, nurturement or strategy. Usually I don't suggest strategy as the first one, it's the edge or others, and Nurturement or strategy. Usually I don't suggest strategy as the first one or others. And then we get to the strategy.
Speaker 2:So we start one at a time, like, okay, then let's apply this and let's use this, as you know, especially if they're struggling with their mission statement. It's all right, let's, let's use this as your focus. How, how, every single day, do you dedicate yourself to this relationship? Or how, every single day, do you give attention to the relationship and and I really try and pull them back from to your significant other, because the relationship is the business, that's how we're holding it up and you're both partners in the business. So it isn't necessarily how do I give attention to my partner, which seems for some people it comes across as personal. And then they, there is that sometimes defensiveness, or well, I don't do this. You know, sometimes defensiveness or well, I don't do this. He or she does this or they do this. So it's a matter of just choose one and how does it support the relationship, and then we can build in the others, and usually by that time the ball is rolling and their mission statement comes easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that we're going to wrap up here, but that final visual of like the, it's like two individuals who are individual, sovereign beings, and then the third entity is the relationship or the business. Right, like, you are co-founder and founder and then this is the business and you're making decisions for the overall good of this outside entity, not necessarily the other person. It's this third outlier, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, even if you don't like your partner in a given moment, you're still dedicated to the relationship, to the business.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that. And to wrap up here, Dr Robin, I'm curious what your final advice to women, to couples, what's your advice that you would? Or prayer for the world that you would like to leave us with?
Speaker 2:Prayer for the world is very concrete. Start looking at therapy and coaching, like you do every other aspect of your life. So women see a gynecologist once a year. We see our dentist twice a year. You know we see different medical professionals specifically each year. I don't know many people who do the same thing when it comes to taking care of their emotional and psychological well-being, whether it's individually or in a relationship. So start looking at those options as proactive parts of your overall wellness and devote as much dedication to those as you do with your physical well-being, Because, as you and I both know, Catherine, those are intimately aligned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that, Thank you. Well, how can my audience find you keep up with you? Are you on socials? Tell us where they can find your books and learn more about your framework.
Speaker 2:Sure, you can find me at drrobinbuckleycom, so easy enough. I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn and I'm always happy to just answer even random questions when people listen to podcasts. And then, if you want to engage in a more detailed conversation about what coaching looks like, I'm always happy to do that. Beautiful, and my book based on this framework out in 2025, and it's called Marriage Incorporated.
Speaker 1:Cool. You have a couple other books already though, don't you?
Speaker 2:I do. I have a children's book, I have a book on research, which is not as exciting, and then I also have a book specific for advice for girls on the brink of adulthood, which was my first one, oh cool.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for your time, Dr Robin, your presence. I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker 2:Me too, Catherine. Thank you again.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope that this conversation offers a new lens, a new perspective, a new framework to start being in relationship, to start orienting around partnership, and is just another tool in the toolkit to show up as the best partner and to create the most healthy relationship possible. All right, I'll be back next week with another conversation. Have a great day.