ארנון גולן על בטחון ומרחב, שטחים ושלום, כיבוש וגירוש, לוד ויפו, עזה והנגב וגם על אחיו יאיר

כשהצנחן ארנון גולן חזר הביתה מהצבא לחופשות שבת אהב אחיו יאיר, הצעיר ממנו בשש שנים, להמתין לו, לקחת את נשקו ולרוץ לנקות אותו. יאיר התגייס בעקבותיו לצנחנים והשאר רשום בתולדות צה״ל ומפלגת הדמוקרטים.

ארנון מדבר ברצון גם על יאיר, אך לשיחה עם אמיר אורן ב״אפרכסת״ הוא מגיע לא כאחיו-של, אלא כגיאוגרף מנוסה בעל רקע היסטורי וצבאי. במחקריו עסק במרחב הישראלי שהתהווה במלחמות ולקראתן, בממדי האוכלוסיה - בין השאר בערים מעורבות,,שהיו עד 1948 ערביות - והבטחון. דוגמאות בולטות: לוד ויפו. 

אחד מספריו של פרופ׳ גולן מוקדש ל״ישראל ורצועת עזה, העשור הראשון, 1947-57״. בתחילת אותה תקופה, לפני ההתקפה הערבית על היישוב העברי שחוללה את מלחמת תש״ח והבריחה דרומה פליטים, התגוררו בעיירות ובכפרים שנכללו בעקבות הלחימה ברצועה כ-150,000 פלסטינים. מספר המצטופפים שם כיום גדל, בשמונת העשורים ואין-ספור קרבות מאז,,פי 15 - ממש כמו מכפלת הגידול במדינת ישראל.  בין כה וכה צצו אמנם גם מגדלים גבוהים ומנהרות עמוקות, אך הדחיסות המפרנסת את העויינות מדגישה את כורח השלום.



אולפן: דודי דורהם
עריכה: יעל בדרשי

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Professor in Geographia.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Professor Emeritus in University. Manja studenti talmita academia is protected by Mikar and Farsa Marie, lacklaw lamed frontality.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Azata geograph, Lossan historian in my Mad Bitchoni Mikkarim Rabim Shasku Bamerhava Israeli, Echtana Arbaimus, Aza is no king of Misfarecha a la Sora Rishon Ad Hamishim Vesheva BH Israel Aza Vod Vod Gam Hair Ba Tfisa Abitroni to Balechima Nigabe Nosim Kele Vata Bamish Eishkeva, and the Noshel Ishkeva, Akiv Shilishkewa, Avarani Lohoni Lo etageni Mel and Ashti Kaniut.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Because you got a four, well, the poversham can take it noch, the gamble be pretty faded in general machine, can we say and show by him? Lamarch is a course ties. So I'm just gonna find professor via Bram Selah, Moray V Rabotay and Hajav Tyan. I don't know what I've got a lot of Benny Morris. Avalata Lir Lod Nich Besha, Lod Nichnea, we have Zeloya Lef Lottevach, we have Girush Babik Vuotav, Lord Lefanav. As you have student Kole Hadalach, we have Naito Nodasafta Loch. Avalu Behlet here mezavitness. Who Nassau Belod Haloch, Vhazo, Melod Mr Dram Lev Shankele? Mulla coin, uh shakeman magad, shall you gab es a fosh of alone? Ulechle bengoyon.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Imat no leg.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

But I video kayta persanute. Bengouyon behunitali Pikuda gana benguyon inhautos. Kavas and heh be gerus to shavim shoom you show vehic im the law in strategy mautio im layasha mitnagdut kasha masakarwas kafak farimer at fim shelhamu biko nega kochala gana. Shav Belod Lodatma Lo Adha Adam Adam Otto acel eight comemut behaut, you know lachama. Uh barega shlod afera it schema kniya me prinata and shave gamalon, gambangon, uh.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Victam is taken a jom laha kimach money shana lod ka irma or evetin sisa pesha pili aval meu rav gamba bitroni as matamer.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Tell the mean uh tea zotha ruba lod because if you look at a kevit, she had malhima the modina zubidu kay't. But I should have left him to Lord, it malabe you dim be Karolim Khadashim, Bulgaria, but Turkiya commata Khrim vehme, maskaraza Helikma Lodaim the Kalmai Beduim Shapunuma Negev or Kafrim Shipunu mezo in Kaleva Khrim Barić Riksuckan belod. Sha tere animi ma minta heravi lodim lov khapsim li lachem or simil khotha hem. Aval kamuvalni chambauthe votiot ka shot bayota.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Khakarta gam et kibush, loshik ruelak kibush, yafo, kiafo lefitoch nita khalukha, nihle labam dinafala sinit ke mlat covale telaviv, ava low khelec. We gamsa, earme orvet. Yes, minyan, hey mauravot? Tel Aviv, Yafo the sipwoh.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Loratza, it's a macafa zele yafo. Uhamu Khan Shia Kimusham ear, me shulish, batyam holo. U Loratza pill batoshavim, yehudim, shit, battlefield, the lawyer, bayashula, bashful, khabishulify dim shul sham. Aval, we had Israel kaftala, we thohavana share yet always. We have seen salame rule. Yafo, yafo, offer it, tropolina ration with Israel. Below, lots of periphery. Gamaya periphery mode. Telaphim by Roka, Khaf, by elite Israel, A Kwahil, Kalkali with Israel. Ya Mura Livloa Bhal. Belod is Bayachir, Belod, Aukia Yhalasha, Olim Arafim, Nosafim Rabayot. Gam belod Gambitel Vivi Yafu. Belod Bayashandina.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Katafta Hakata Katafta Al Echa Yeshuvim Ha Palastini Marvim Kaho Kheret, the Afrule Israelim Yudim, Echem Shinouit Mutasha Lamedina, Gamratid Vikalkalit the Gambi Tchonit. But Lemashal, the Lok Lemashal, the Kimata Dogmota Kidot, Faradis v Jeserazarka, as Gamishovimakim Yunishharim Beshfelata Khov or Basharon.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

There's a Shelak Dola, that's my Koreu. Faradis with Jeseruk Farim Shketim. Like you may or the Shketim.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

I am a high Zikonia Covenia coversim to him in Faradays.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Faradays, Od Nokim, Gamba of Dim, Gamba Kokot. Shravrava of Dot Meshik Bay or Bemo Faradis Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Mammi Phenabit Chonit, Katafta Al Azza, Shnokan Sifriha Banglit. The Hasfar She Hukam Lachar Arbaimus Monetesha Bathala Baikar He Akzoyot Nachal Shaitazu, the Adayom Kamuvan Waimet Nachaloz Vahirot, Kheleclifnearbaimushivan Echona, She Lanaga Medinit, Lifrosita Ishovima Alagwool?

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Batnaim Sha Shani Bivaday. Ayu sota Khlosia Agwarim Vegam Anashim, Anashim Shia Dula Fil Neshek, and Anashim Shayhou Shem Yihula mod betlahot bitroniot, my share Michel Avarita Akhaba Palmach. Garinim Shabau Garinim Organim shiru Michul or Americaim Rabemon. She can besaku it besuki has the kimhivati. Lot of meetings is Argentina or Brazil. Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil. Besahol at Visa Visa que Losimit because America would give Mutsaw Tsvay et Khirum. Baregashi that is sakana as Ulema of the Mutzav Twai univaker.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

As Baitkal Kel been as Le Shiva October, but small, Mhelec Shalorak Baimla Againalov, Elaim Aruhim Bhall Regala Again Alat's Man.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Haganamikhavit Aita Mura Tet Shuvaf Savasadir, Lola Fadyun, Lola Mihablim. So, Knisal Matzav shelvasadir. Afrodos, we have dab again, bipne, pigwim. That's a mitsuff. That's available beaza, behither shaved, and shagamai, we make shelves.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Ma his anthem Z barra yonot al Mikomos Hamerhav Hamil Shav Bagana u Batkafa.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Kodeman Shaf Law Kimbed Hamirchavek uniela Granti Israel, we're hotchain baja, and so has keyboard. Shama Yesh Bayagdola, Shlitazottech, Bay State.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Aval gamekabli mita ancha, ad la shalom, kamovansima gali, vimata peda shalom as a loikreolam, Aval Banacha, She Ad La Shalom Tsarik Okedaai, Lahziq Bashetahze. Ad gama itnachloyot and netel velo nechas.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

I lose moke. Him net algamu, me niso ni gam to ish milouim talkatim zutaru milujim. Andilo, it'sahtil rod be m nechis, and he loem lifne ki mačlo shim shana by zoshel it's harita mar. Now sukim roves man, bele bele dofia po ima juudim sham ve zodappa hodnik nemida ma šajom. Bv barbema od mikrim, gambe suhat aza, itna głuči la mi frija batašla pip chelam mulā ravim. Azi anila saktila b'em nekesi strategija. If shali tesla fash, no sāni jah benjardienu se hazita mizrahita su ezok haik misujem, baby baby unotene, nepša gan outeravot abali ajom yom šhaakze. Befhat zavaniš kakša, mata šoloti baintifada rishona parim kemita mifrat, we'd chalamswemikra be milimikunis ki bele pito kibanika coman ki balty tik shel mivsa shelha ka kifa mizraha bona git ka.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Mashukola derhadin.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Mansuka tizohir s it lamem paim kuda, kambats vanny, it's ugame. Shani kala mitamni, manach nu al manak of the boom. She logbash do the strategic men.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Butore geograph story or historian geography at comma Israel reva kwar Hashani shel amai is rehat me shuabed la nostalgia geographit shel reata mrikav adci in veceva be nosaf lashtahim om nam kvar et sinay gziu be'imkomli rocha jomesh Milhamacheret, tzvaota Kirim, avir, cyber rachfanim. En yot termiday re tuk le kav mit suda tigar ta ishanot, vela prisa hahi uhsafek se very mishali mishtani uta mama todashela.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Khoshavhhi hezavu abirteb Oktober kamzbandakla nukbota giail la kibutzin kloom. So metak holcha dehaka mikhaak andwabu. As gamkan barushita a mihavsta mhzik. Avalashela, kamikhabirga student, mihab and biographim, and she him as kimadam. Well famim, a mirhabadesh meushava day kutsay oy not, ka lochwe tere tahik, wo shemen sika shame af share layevit kadem kadima, maitaronaga dolbela, vik et chem, oraziket revron, can orseo do lot, boy, weimat tava oyevi trabere, mata baya dira, ken the agav the biduka si ba beta shooter vot barbem shoon otpami gert alligion v shelod, and uh we bayas bonislachotam letarkam. Midiuk, mediook uh the baro, the geographia mihab the low ka shetah, the gamma nashim, the gamigaba michav. Meo shavsham ve echh vehata mtiakeselav as uh michav the vamukav mafinazott.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

As uh Amartha Shevshar or Tzarichle Napot Rigashot, it'a yetzarim, I'm a tete imata bitchonit geographite lahaloutin. Tzarichle sarte et a cava nachon me mizrachla kavayarok or a cavayarok at smo, it's okay matve.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

So I need matvelo to mezrahla kavayok, lobitva kingdolim, uhlet mase aik sharon bezmanokava eta kavba zesha mshala shovek kohavim, kta te maletoha shetakh shela Gadama avit, and khav, Avalbe feroush litvokba medin youtube, gamita mediunchik toch nita alon gam shetach minimum. The gamoslo, though? Gamoslo, goslohin veshma come shirt com shel alone. Bainana zerfa. The masharikha mim soita deh and pela game or mashou can and you adam that t's story. Avachil matwami din youth the musukan.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

As patata revanch, kazah aas, but shesh eva aita even negav gumba and banisiga, me shesha a rim shelefaner, and shara le tanyao, avalushalim, maitao se laim low la kherani lomeville, ma itarona godol bi shlot be bashlota hit so yota areochi rushalaim.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Lomoville, ma abudhisti tenanou, manotentla nusha masurbacher, kutsuma klociao yenichana plimba krahimla metashiruti gati rushalaim le kadaj gami mate di kolikaya. Mana, mazitana, shlema, shim shlema, shalaim or reveal.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Israel vila y shut a felestin.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Uh shelha mashnikha is akadosh. A gana kadosh. A gana kadosh, butam, l'okla felestinha israelim, they must Indonesia. Yeah, but uh dana, y'all. Yes, I think it's a kir blaze, and whoa, he did him terrifying, right? A very shame is so many. We gotta swim. We have the same arrow, can see that we can do me kataliku, orthodoxie.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Azaita mansa mina šutā, but like zoli took niet beador, bī um.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Tai no, miši eliemi, hu can'tela kim sele, mafia kolda tās.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Māška fatala politička, aplicā apriot.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Ni šefani shahla smolamatun. Ani la chef, et tarif mahali butel tati nutva dai shovel, anda focatra nadulumiza yason. Abo ni biklet bad pitaron, show pitaron masi, peton mitkabella dat, shella bajot territorialio, shala bayot shala mitahon. Kada shift isra to help politica yem, blahish call commachaniza tela milhama, birala afta oche and kabel me.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

But Janima Hal Pihut Gadolba Munach Ahi. Kalika Pogas Bahov, Ukwa Achiha. Bamika prati Mata ormeric politic.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Aki Ulla politika, we don't laad politica, faked. Aval who mean, and faked but we have politics are political, that's the politics of shari. And such opposite, and I know so kimpa, maybe flagota, we have political, we have tremendous. They colour, and we can coal it. And the anachronists, anachronism.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Miley bata matza, my bata econote.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

The medina thock, medina mesouderet, medinashim chavet kollezahim shela, you dim ke Arabim, ke Notrim, Medina Midna Helet, Betzura, he show effet les came shalomot, Medina Bahdat Mufred Mamdina, Penal Motha Shovel Dati. That Zohala Kavod, Aval, Yenam Nahitam Dina, Nanam Nahriti Namedini, Yena Matzapoliti, Medina Shibakulame Shotin, V Shabakulame Not Nimet Helkam, Lo, Helek him Yukasimisi Bakazo, Helik Msibachert, the Collegamatar Viesa Lagov, Sherot Lugumi, Sum Gazet Bechlet, Gamet Otam.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

But, uh, Michael Bede, Sikulot Ramatkal, Bigaloton, Neumatalichim.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Tell you, U Katsin, Katini Mushma, the Katsin, Shoseta, Vodashelo, Inki, Ullah, Nirta, Vemo Lam, Nirta, Magidato, Bidio Mushala Gidata, as Beneuma Talihim. Aval and Ramatka, Gangso, and the people who are in the world, and the people who are in the world, and the same. Well, it's a Macrim, Lono Al Shahin, the same class, there, see, I'm not sure. Anikoshev, but I shall be the U Bay, they're more of a key, but Mari Hoto.