אלי לויטה על הגרעין האיראני, האיפוק הישראלי והחלטות בעולם להישאר על הסף ולא לחצות אותו - בינתיים

אילו נתן זך התבקש להתאים את שירו ״כשאלוהים אמר בפעם הראשונה״ לכור בדימונה, התוצאה היתה בערך כך: ״כשבן גוריון אמר בפעם הראשונה ׳יהי אטום׳, הוא לא חשב באותו רגע מה ייעשה בו״. את הקריה למחקר גרעיני נגב בנו, בניצול הזדמנות נדירה ביחסים עם צרפת, לפני גיבוש מחשבה מעמיקה על השימוש בתוצריה.

אחר כך, בששת-שבעת העשורים החולפים, התפתח בישראל גם רובד של מומחים וחוקרים במדעים ותחומים שונים, אזרחים ואנשי צבא, שהצטרף לעמיתיו בעולם בליבון סוגיות אסטרטגיות. האמריקאים והסובייטים. למשל, התעשתו וריסנו את הדחף הטבעי להצטייד ביותר גדול, יותר חזק, יותר מתגבר על הגנות, כי הבינו שהשגת יכולת מהלומה ראשונה בידי אחד הצדדים במשוואת עימות תאיים על היציבות כי תדחוף את הצד השני להקדים במכת מנע.

ד״ר אריאל (אלי) לויטה הוא מקבילם הישראלי של לומדי האסטרטגיה בעולם. אקדמית וממשלתית - לפנים היה המשנה למנכ״ל הוועדה לאנרגיה אטומית - ירד לקרביה של המעטפת המדינית לתחום הגרעיני. את הסודות שהוא יודע אינו מגלה, כמובן, אך די בתובנות הכלליות ולעתים הממוקדות שהוא מוכן לחלוק.

לויטה מקפיד שלא לערב גרעין בפוליטיקה. בשיחה עם אמיר אורן ב״אפרכסת״ הוא קובע שכל ראשי הממשלות בישראל נהגו באחריות בתחום זה, הכפוף להם במישרין וכמעט בלעדית.

הודעת נתניהו שבידי איראן כבר היו פצצות אטום מתמיהה אותו; לדעתו אין לה בסיס עובדתי. יותר מאיראן מדאיגות אותו פקיסטן, סעודיה וטורקיה. ״גם אם איראן תשיג אי-פעם נשק גרעיני, להבדיל ממתקן-פיצוץ,״ משוכנע לויטה, ״זה לא יהיה סוף החזון הציוני. לא ניתן להם את התענוג הזה״.

אולפן: דודי דורהם
עריכה: יעל בדרשי

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

I forgot it. Amir Oren, I'm shabby honour.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Shalom Dr. Levite. Shalom to him.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

I Britannia, well I gampolin, Ireland, Povasham al Sotabrit.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Today?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

As Lamati on Betelav, it has a torso in the Belav, we have a variety of cornel, but it's a cornel, Kim is back in the case.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

As Mishaiah as Rosha Mishmer, Katina Turanaya, Elan Tehila, of Seren Taylor, Haka Haluf Michael, Moskirazvay Shell Sarah Bita Khon. Mata Zukhara Ruha Zem, dura It mea maya, Messi Rataidiya Eli Zaira uveim toutola.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

As con la itik warba utohaka as diva bota the gam Laiti Hasuflo, Tomeda, Muchmany Shatama Kira Kola Girl saw mehin me Elizeira and me Zvizamir Venala Vikenala. When I was a kher or mashou bench leven.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Kikvarne march Lonakonchoya Sokankafu or Mishulash le Holapachot. As a doctorate at California, or she's sad.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Lovelo, Thilani Khosek Baulamayski. Distance u Loshama. We k shivle kulam.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Ahan? Vematrum shulka? But I got a lagarin.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

As ka. Reshit animitsaref, the mobile thoum, shikrab, otozman biton Israel, we could have sefere generali ashmauti vada jongsha ukoleta doktrina tsvaitel Israel via Tfisa gana tit mulet kafit. A se Amisi Marisjona, Vegam, Swao Kashel Mirchavim Acharim, al Kolmani avnees sott beetfisata Bitagon. Vejal Kesher ben att asia Tfisa ve Abizua ve Zrota Bitajon Areat. Aiti Sotabrit a Mel Gashel Doktorat Aita mi atonjocha scoobet and Mazana i Ma Ben Gushi. As nixhaftil is a chilabika, masivi by Stanford, we are Kasifazo, Soharam Garini, which is Kamas for Rimshkarati, but I'd shall be able to make a Z by Suka Bengushi.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Herman Kahn, Henry Kissinger, the Bernard Rhodey. We game Thomas Schelling with Robert Osgood, Loculam Yudim. Mamashach Pikrout, the Shak Metaut, where is it who lawyer saw, we gave Lolanche a physical kimya.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Halekha Bechelko, Cloma you come with Richard Garwin, Sidrel Acharim, she be fair, yeah. They're gamma tzadim and technique physically, maybe. Aval Zelomana seem power shamelessly gunen if nine garini.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Nixon Sikem Mgolda, Otsemet, Bemasha Israel Osha Reykesh Natimsha Shagrir Rabin Bathalab Mshal Johnson in Walonki or Z Rosh el Clifford Gambs Nixon. Kedele Kabelet Fantomim Americaim Ratzu colmine arvuyot Vishamagavedim Bemunarh Shata Mamashaf Pirsamta Seferodin Tsaf Tatsachut Elliot Richardson M'Tiach Brahabin Shelefim Masha Amerikaim Israel Kvarnim set Alassaf. Gamba Thomagarine, Gambit Hum Ahovala Garineet, Methlet Tilay Iriho, A Gabmanian, Homat Iricho, Tilay Ericho, Imiesh Kesha Holo. Hello Khan.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

So Lomovella Mediak, we are mediak. We gave Romania Botareshima, we have Italia, or the other thing, and we have to be able to get the people who are not going to be kudah. The Azosif Amirah, we're going to have to build legitimate. Amir, I need Lord politica Mekumitarayon being Afikim Youth Soim, and we have to be able to do it. Ha in Yana Garini Nimtsa Bekhaiuto Hayeshira Veh Biladit Shil Roshala. A day in Yesh, who mimims, le sakem Gamim Akhrim. Aval Rosh Amsala Huamutsi, Verme Venosa Garin, Mat Israel, and the Walking of the World, Ha Khel mehamed Klapeha Ulam, the Kalek mehabdinut klapeiha bait.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

As a verda l energy atomit B'aret se Berosha omed Rosha memchala, la mrocha atta Menahela Verda Ashav Nitan le Misha Omed Beroshah Ashav Murke mi Anchey Mada Le Anche Betachon le Shavar ve ata Vegam Kodmecha baumat Hum Shata Meda Bera Lav omi mis Rada Kutz om mi ha keila akademit. Ma usa Mishnelle Minahel a Veda Shemetapelbanus Imchilha.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Begadol miet lebenkalavada be nimedinim vestegi we Tua Methilko be some hayot sha mankal.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Madua yes sorich be Tafkitkaze Kashab Misrada Khutz, Yeshpa Kit Bahir, Shemimune Al Paran, Bakan, Perukneshek, Bakaratneshek, Hulayakol Liot Haisha Medini Shell Israel Bathomaz.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Bih Dail and Ahel et Utama Rachamedinit She Israel Nidreshhet Lahada Shotliv Kharim Kedei Lehagen al Kif Satarash Kneged Yumim Diplomatim Begama Khirim Nidrashim Shutafim Beshurao Kash al Misra Davim Shalh, the Tiantai Ms. Mashal, Hulay Akhid, Kiashelaika, Mechata, Yotzer, Eth Hushata Imun Beke and Israel, Shadwhimit Nahalim Kahala Kham, I'mat Akrayut Vhadomi. As Mashik was Misra Khutzba Maracha, Hagam ba Mishrahi Khidah, Shaba Israel be Youth Khazitit Beno Segarin, Kola's man, Bivina. Bavina Klobama Shagrir la Suhnutomit, a Shagriatomit, Bami Shorota Vadal energy atomit. Aval Ba Vida Ashna Titka Bovan, Bavid Ota Kherot, Bama Sayyomatani, Ms. Tfim, the Fiat Sorah Vanyan, Echad O Yotermian Shay Ms Radha Kuts, Gammi Atzaj Di Bartalov, we gam Akhelechel Youtz Bishpati, Shell Misrada Khutz, Adina Ben Lumi, Shell Mis Radha Khutz. Zmoshe Marti Mhave Pan Echad, Hashov, Loha Biladi, Shel Avodah, Medinit, Shell Avadar and Agatomit.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

As a arts of it, but sefer Yesodhad Shell Professor Yoshafatar Kabi, Fatih, Rosh Amandeshavar, Shimetzlaat's Model Mekkar, Ayukam Akirim of Zaya Sefer B C C Mash Fshar Lil Mod, Kshekurim be Karita Mismahima Zarim, Kiyavim Lista Mekal Piresume Khutz, or Shekasher Benguron Echlit, Shekhashovla Kim Tashtit Garinit, Pakrial Mirkar Garinid Mona Vagam Benachal Sorek a Zaya Sof Mahshababema Sethila. Codemba nuakahipsueta Torah. Are you Israelim et a Torota o la Miote Alehandi Barta La Nesibota Azoriot?

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Are you okay?

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Aval Lachliha, Layabilaniva.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Aval Masha Shovel Khayan. Shayyasham Nisajonlik Show, it's a very m bichal, Sugata Shtahim Bifrat, Leven a Yatsiwah Garini Israel, Keduguma. We gam who it's political Israelit, Shayot Terra Kav shekubar legalon v Anashav.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Dayan mou Perez Moon Alon.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Ayyuka Elisha Persimon Fahotni Sullafim Shavatoratam Shel Shimon Perez Vakerim. As I suck but she vagari need, Israeli, no kashani.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

As Bessahakol, a Haita, Hayah Har Bay Isuk, Besugiota ele, Gamisuk Pumbi, the Gamisuk She Denopumbi, Taramet Khilko, it's Garin. Ari Mia Khesli Israel Hazakab and Neshek Yomadin, Hhoshev sh be quotashua, bikhushatta Matsor Alisrael, Israeli Klita Shit Rham Mashu She Im Kulam if Leshua leav ich Bbeshuta Viaf Tzitzuta, Yela Mashule Ayemelehem, Shim Lawyer Pu, he tishtameshbu. Kasherbe Shishim Veshevan iqbeshua Shtahim, li Khaiish omek strategy, wa Tarhish Mesukanahu, kvar enenu, wehmah Israeli Khala Shtahim im patent kaze, or lehfihul vatera patent imeshla's Takim.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Aval bonitim Vagarin. But so foshel Davar Tesla Shalom. And it's a very good thing. I saw Hashivahara Vit mit Gabeshet, le Or Hahat Ma'a, Bekirbam, shakenim tether ma comesuyamba ula magarini, shelavem sachim litia kheshen masha kore be etzem be khreish shim ve shivaya filuhaya me itz la mil khamabelfamu si shim ve shava. Sha'i ta khesla par si azot vaniya sha ta makiruta.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Ghotchila metosimika senator m'al dimona.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Shayu uhum bit kifat mena shell D Dimona. Aval miregasha Ravim givele maskana, yachsim li Israel, y kholoch nam yhulim lachzerotam lechho, m'zbea nafal sha'yef sha li stakin, belayemal etsim ki umashemat Israel. Theza maskuba sha'lah echh a dabar aze maqbilotam, they law makbilotam. Aniya khagav, m sheloh saqtiba mekara zeba in yeshil, mite na la bi Iran, Bashani mahonot, aim t kifabi tilim shelma Israeli davarla m'tbou mibli sh'ye namerya kummi rivtso, olo. Because canara v tamy mina.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Klamo saf no saf, saf shell has a saf a girou, she ofto as corre lo handamer Mizanek litrof.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

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SPEAKER_01 31:35

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SPEAKER_00 31:47

Now, as vote, Hagam, Khana Chuval Behola Mikrim, and Zeha, Behola Tzavima ele, Besofosh of the M.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Sha iyum ki u mi Almedina, Shenikhed K Balat Neshagarini, Enlacham Malista Ken Velasot, Haim Adavara Zegam Khal, Almidina Shehi Yot Pachot Khova, Avalon Ur Khamigareen, Y Shalam Odman Yenet, Ki Lem Mashal, Day Baru, Shayranima Skuba R Khva Bash Ela Zotti, Bashanima Khonout, Haim Dai Beliot Medina Tsaf, Veleyem She Im Tutkaf, T'Htzsaf, Dai Bok De La Artia Milit Kofot, O'Shema N'B Zedai, The Ace Loy R Zakta Tsuwa T's M'Other's Well, Tzliakh Le Shahna Akhrim,'Shu La NPT She Nizkar Kodem O Nis Kera' Sha' Medinot She'La In Neshekarini', Lefchamut Chivim, She'n Dot Litkov Medinot Hasrot Neshegarini.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Amir, Atta Darshan Melumad, The Mida Histori Amok. As Atikuna Yahu, She La Hit Hai Vuyota Yesh, His Tai Guyot. Yes, Betzila She Medina Garini, Vechenala Vechenala. As Uvdai, Aval, Shem Mashekoreza, She Be Met Artabrit, Velo Kee, Ma Bed Govarifa Keneged Russia, Haivet Ishtamesh Bene Garini, Ken Neged Ukraine, Kasheba Mikrea, Ukraine, K Talih Peru Kash, Ukraina, Minesh Garini, Ayab Khizata, Hagam Shalobish Litata, Miz Gareth Mash I'm Miz Garm Budapest, Belef Chamberlaz, Ukraine, Britain, Belarus, Kazakhstan. But, Iran, Hames, Afad L'Isla Gatbano, Lev La Havde, Ma' Ala B Goralos, Saddam Hussein, V Muhammad Gaddafi, Kasher, His Tatu Vitru Alay Holotaq Beach. But Mikhail's Love is a Record of Khatov, and JCPwe Tov, Ra the Mekwar. Al Khalakim Gdolim, Me'Ood Mitohni, Garin, Shela, Kulala, Al Khomarim Abkim, Shayubir Shoutar, Lat Sorim Sheikh Pituach, Vishw, Wekenala. As by Betzadim Tovim, I'd Zadim Raim Bahemit Maked Rosh, Iskem Huzmani, the whom the Kabel Hesh Midoraita, the Tukhal Baitsem L Hadesh at Peulot, Mikbalot Shehin. By scheme, Section T, if Shah is a damage, I scheme, then we'll suggest the conclusion, I've got to make it lay out here, and we have a lot of people who are not going to mutate. And the world is a very important thing to do with the world. But the T, Iran, Lohita Baal, Mikhalet, and Hagia Le Garini, Mitcani Putz Garini, but the Mishia Memory. Aval, Matzav, but we have to be able to get the people who are not going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Paradoxa.