Richard Nicholls  0:09  
Hello, you beautiful people, and welcome to Episode One of Therapy Natters, a mental health podcast to help you to try and answer some of your lifelong questions about what makes us tick. And what makes us happy. I'm psychotherapist Richard Nicholls, and with me is my co host here. Fiona Biddle, Fiona. Why don't you introduce yourself, my dear?

Fiona Biddle  0:33  
Oh, hello. Yes, my name is Fiona Biddle. And I've known Richard, we've worked together for about 20 years now. So it's a long time. And I've been in practice as a psychotherapist since 1993. So very long time.

Richard Nicholls  0:48  
Well, yes, yeah. I mean, I think I I've been around in this for a while because I started in therapy as a profession when I was in my mid 20s. But that was early 2000s. So but still, you know, it's a long time. I still think I'm one of the new guys, but I'm not actually know the older folks now.

Fiona Biddle  1:09  
We all feel it. We all feel a lot younger than we are.

Richard Nicholls  1:11  
I think that's a good thing. Yes. And for episode number one, what we what I did, because I already have a podcast called rather big headedly, the Richard Nicholls Podcast, please go and subscribe. Have a listen if you don't already. And I asked the listeners on there if they could submit some questions so that we can do this as a as something else. And I did get quite a lot of questions already. So even though this is a question, submission podcast, mainly, we have all these questions already, even though we've only just started. So question number one for episode number one is from listener, Gillian and Gillian asks, Who should go for therapy? Do you need to have a problem that needs fixed? She says, I asked because I keep reading about people working on themselves and so on. They don't as far as I know, have specific problems. They're just kind of sorting their heads out. But is that very American? What would it involve? It seems very frivolous. And if I did that, would I be taking up space for people who actually need it? And what if I find out I have massive issues? I didn't know about? Interesting question. Interesting question. Thank you, Gillian.

Fiona Biddle  2:21  
Absolutely. It's an interesting question. And to start with, let's look at the question itself, who should have therapy, one of the biggies in therapy is that we we don't like the word should. But there are some people who should and those are people who are training to be therapists, because it's part of the requirements to enable you to to know your own patterns and triggers and know what it's like to be a client. But other than that, it's not really a should it's whether you choose to whether you feel that it's appropriate.

Richard Nicholls  2:57  
Yeah. By saying, Do you need to have a problem that needs fixed? To me, I would rather a bit like, a bit like having your car serviced. I would rather we picked up on problems before they happen so that they didn't escalate, which which falls into the question she was asking at the end there is what if I found out I have massive issues that I didn't know about? I mean, how likely is it that somebody has massive issues that they don't know about?

Fiona Biddle  3:25  
Indeed, they might have little issues. In fact, I would probably hazard a guess that everybody has little issues. It's part of the essence of being a human being that we have little issues. But whether you fix things, yes, there are types of therapy, where it's about fixing something, you know, you might have a behaviour or a thought pattern or a way of being in some some description that you don't want to do, or maybe that you do want to do something that you don't do. Those can be fixed in therapy, but there is this huge space in this world for the exploration of what life is all about.

Richard Nicholls  4:11  
Yeah, like, like, Gillian was saying there, she, she says, those that might frivolously go and work on themselves. They don't, as far as she knows, seem to have seem to have any specific problems. They're just sorting their heads out. And I think that's okay. It's okay, just to talk through stuff just to sort your head out. She does ask, you know, what would what would that involve? Because, you know, as a therapist, especially my original training was in hypnotherapy, which was very, very specific, because people would come to me and you were in a similar position, I think for anyone, yes. Where people would say, I have this issue. I have this problem. And I'd like you to help me with that. This one, or maybe a series of of specific things, but they were very specific and it was very rare that somebody would come to me and say what feel a bit of water? No, we're just want to know, they're just coming to sit down, that doesn't happen. Whereas in, in counselling and even psychotherapy, sometimes that does happen. People do sit in front of us and say, I know I need to be here or I think and feel that I need to be here. But I don't quite know why I just know that I need I need to explore things. And that's that, that, that that doesn't fill my diary. But there's a lot of that going on.

Fiona Biddle  5:30  
There. There is indeed. And I think, yeah, my initial training and hypnotherapy a long time ago, and my very first course, if somebody had come, and I think actually they did, and said, I just leave something. And I had no idea what to do, because the training was very much about the fixing. But you're quite right, Richard, as you move into counselling and psychotherapy, the world opens up, and the possibilities open up. So now if I get a client who comes in and says that I get excited, I think, Oh, great. This is something really exciting to work with. It's the essence, as I said earlier, the essence of being human is is about that, the process of exploring one's own life and life in general. I think it was pretty sure it was Aristotle who said the unexplored life is not worth living. And that doesn't necessarily mean that we would buy into that you have to explore your life. But there's something there that there's a value to exploring what it's all about, for me, and for my family, for my friends, for my community. It's very exciting work,

Richard Nicholls  6:43  
Hmm. Yeah, it absolutely is. And for clients to recognise that, we're, we're not going to judge them for coming in and sitting down and saying, Well, I'm not quite sure why I'm here. But I know that I need to be. That's okay. That's like you saying you put your hands together. Great, that we've got things to talk through got things to explore here, this is going to be really, really good for good for them. And that's nice. And it's not, it's not frivolous? Asking that question. I mean, the fact that Gillian asked, this means other people are thinking the same thing, because they're thinking, I would like to get to therapy because I I'm in a fortunate enough position that I can afford to and I know that people value it. So what I'm going to do it but it seems frivolous, when there are people out there that are worse off than me. And I'm sure maybe listen, longtime listeners of my of my solo project, my solo podcast will have heard me say lots of times, that there's always going to be somebody worse off than you. That's just how the world works. And to think that you're the worst, the only person you can go to therapy is the one that's the worst person in the world that day is just unfair.

Fiona Biddle  7:50  
I think it's an interesting question about perspective. And you just said you wouldn't judge anybody who's coming in with that. I think probably everybody knows that therapy is a place where you do not get judged. That's sort of tautological. But also, we wouldn't judge anybody who's coming in with something that in theoretical terms might be called trivial. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how trivial how serious, it matters to you, therefore, it matters to us. And it's something we can work with. I would say perspective is something that I remember when I was my counselling course, which I did after my hypnotherapy training, where they were saying it doesn't matter at all about anybody else. It's purely your own scenario, your own perspective on it. But I've noticed that during the pandemic, that has shifted somewhat, I think that people have, and in therapy, it's recognising their position in the world, with regard to anxiety and so on, has shifted. So seeing the perspective in these contexts is, is really very useful. But it's both and it's to see see your position, comparative to others, but also to recognise that whatever that is, your situation matters.

Richard Nicholls  9:18  
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes coming in and sitting down in front of a therapist, that is the first time for people where they've been themselves. And a lot of people don't realise that we play these parts out, we play these characters, we have these parts of ourselves that come to the foreground and they they might dominate our personality for a day or for a week or for a year or almost for a lifetime. But it's not all of us that part. I'm a different person for for for my listeners that I'm going to be for my Mum, I'm a different person for you, Fiona than it would be for for my wife. Yeah, we all play these different characters. When somebody comes in for therapy, it might be the first time that a certain part of them comes forward. It's the part that maybe the one that's more than whether can really be themselves for the first time in front of somebody. And that can be a very strange experience for people.

Fiona Biddle  10:18  
Absolutely. And people don't tend to recognise the fact that in some circumstances in their, in their lives, whether it is with certain people in their family or certain people at work, that they feel that they can't be themselves, and that is something that everything is accepted. In the therapy setting? Of course not will I say, of course, maybe it's not an of course. But behaviours aren't necessarily acceptable. You know, if we've had a client come in, they've said that they are a mass murderer. We're not gonna say up well done you

Richard Nicholls  10:56  
Yeah, well done for admitting that that takes some strength exactly

Fiona Biddle  10:59  
we, we, we have the phrase is unconditional positive regard for the person, not necessarily their behaviour. But it does make it safe because you can admit to failings I never had anybody admitting to murder. But you can admit to failings, and it's still okay, it's still safe to do so.

Richard Nicholls  11:23  
Yeah. Yeah. But I'm reminded here is, although that this isn't what happened to me, when I finish trainings, like I say, my first training was in hypnotherapy. But a lot of young people come out of uni, having trained in psychotherapy to work in, in practice, and one of the first jobs they get is in prison. Now, these people are 21 years old, and the first thing they do is get put into a prison to work with offenders, and sometimes the nastiest of the nastiest, and they are still able to have unconditional positive regard as much as because they know this person needs help. If they can do that, then crikey, we can definitely hold our judgement for somebody that might sit in front of us and say, I'm not quite sure if I need to be here or not. The fact that somebody asked that question often means really? Yeah, you do, then you'd be happy to sit here and give me money. Why are you not happy to do that? Why did you that's not frivolous in the slightest. I think what Gillian was thinking about is the fact that there's a lot of particularly in the UK. I don't know for definite about the rest of the world. But I can imagine it's very similar. There's a lot of problems. There's a lot of people that need help. And maybe not everybody knows whether there's enough therapists to go round. But there are there are

Fiona Biddle  12:48  
yes, the there are plenty, plenty of therapists. That is the question of whether you can get that through the NHS or not. But that perhaps is not a discussion for now. But the yeah, there's plenty, plenty of provision. Yeah.

Richard Nicholls  13:07  
Nobody's nobody's gonna be missing out. If you are ready to go to therapy. You're not taking somebody else's seat. I think that's that's worth that's worth recognising. One of the things that she did, there was a little postscript at the end of this that says I shall read it down. And she wouldn't mind I'm not sure she's at anyway, I thought that would be interesting to just look at who can benefit and what to expect from it. And oh, yeah, it's quite easy for us therapists who have been doing this for nearly 21, even almost 20 years. We know what to expect from therapy. We know what it entails and the sort of things that we're going to talk about and the processes we're going to go through. Maybe the public hasn't got a clue. Now, because I've seen awful therapists on TV, there's just been parroted. And comedy therapy, it's very rare that therapy is well represented in the media. Gotta be honest.

Fiona Biddle  13:59  
That's, that's true. There are a few I won't name them. But I can I can think of one in particular, that was very, very well done, but it was larious at the same time, but how does somebody know if that's real? Or the other ones real? Or how in soap operas, they talk about somebody who's had something they say they got to go for counselling? What does that mean? It's, it's, it's a tricky one. How do you know what anything is? until you try it? You probably really don't. But I would just encourage people to just talk to somebody whether it's online or Well, the phone, they still have phone calls, you know, it's possible or look at their websites and get a feel of the person and then see whether you think that that could work for you. But it's going to be a new experience because it's a new experience. Yeah.

Richard Nicholls  14:56  
And one of the sort of The secret ingredient to therapy. It isn't, it isn't a secret in our profession, that the reason therapy helps is because you create a good relationship with somebody. And as a client, you need to make sure that you do have a connection with that other person that there is a clique with them. And that might mean that what I suggest to people when they when they come to me and say, Oh, I see you're fully booked. But how do I find a therapist? I go, Well, okay, here's the BJCP, website, link, here's the UK, CP, mainly, I sent some people there. And I say, have a look around and pick five or six that you like the feel of from their, from their bio, that you know that definitely working, they're taking on clients, and speak to each one, spend five or 10 minutes with each one, because all therapists will be willing to do that we don't go oh unless you're gonna make an appointment. I'm not talking to you, we're humans, and they become therapists for a reason,

Fiona Biddle  15:57  
 if they do say that that's probably not the one you'd be wanting to go.

Richard Nicholls  16:02  
No, that's a red flag right there. But if, if you spend five minutes 10 minutes talking to each one over the course of a week, and then decide which one to maybe have a session with just to see if you can still have a that that clicking person to see if there is that connection with the two of you, even if that's online or face to face, because online therapy is just as effective, it really is. And if there isn't a connection, if you do feel this person, actually, because what the world needs to know is that humans are all different. Every therapist is different. Every therapy modality might have some common foundation, some similar ground to all the others. But the way that a therapist uses all the different modalities within therapy is going to be different. They'll bring their own stuff into the therapy room as well, we can't help that we shouldn't. Well, having said that, well, should we well, we can't we need to be congruent and be ourselves.

Fiona Biddle  17:01  
We have to be because we're not robots. So yeah, we have to bring ourselves in. So it is, it's true that we know every individual on this planet ever existed, is different. Everyone is unique. And therefore the therapeutic relationship is between two unique individuals. So it's doubly unique. So it's never going to be the same, never going to be replicated. So that connection has to be there. It's not always necessarily going to be there immediately. But you need to have some something that when you're choosing a therapist that you think, yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's working, and then explore a little bit further. And if things don't work after 123, whatever sessions, then move on, it's fine. And yeah, we all therapists recognise that they can't be the right person for every client. It's just how it is because it is that unique times unique, doubly unique thing.

Richard Nicholls  18:09  
Yeah, if we've got therapists who the reason they became therapists was maybe their own troubles, their own problems, their own experiences, their own addictions, maybe for example, and they want to, they found therapy helpful they want to, and they trained to become a therapist, and you know, five years later, they're out there doing it, but somebody comes in with some similar problems, that's just a little bit too close to their stuff. That therapist might have to say, I'm gonna have to refer refer them on. Because, yeah, I've kind of gone over my problems. But this person could this claim could drag me back down. So ethically, I'm not gonna be able to help them, but I'm gonna have to refer them on and that that can sometimes come up at Session Four. Yeah, when a client really finally feels comfortable and going, here's the real reason why I'm here. And it could be something really triggering to the therapist, and they go, Oh, I wasn't expecting this. This wasn't on the intake form. Oh, no. And that's a difficult conversation to have to say, I might not, or might not be the one to be able to help you with that. That

Fiona Biddle  19:12  
is probably I can't think of another profession, where the humaneness of the professional is so critical. And so those sorts of those sorts of things are going to happen, but we can't and wouldn't want to put on the metaphorical white coat. Although I didn't know somebody who did that as a therapist. I will not name names, but you have Mike off Mike later buy me buy me a glass of wine, I'll tell him but the you we can't put on that metaphorical white coat and the distance that that creates, because that's in the way of the relationship and the that connection, that that is necessary to enable the client to be themselves and open up and acknowledge and accept and become aware. And therefore, to change.

Richard Nicholls  20:13  
One thing that crossed my mind when I was reading Gillian's message when she was asking what if I find out I've got massive issues I didn't know about. There are times where our defence mechanisms on causing too much of a problem, indeed, but because that's what they're there for. If we don't have severe problems, those defence mechanisms that sort of push things to one side and go, it's fine, it's fine. And it probably might be fine. But with by exploring stuff, and finding out that things aren't as fine as you thought, that does change that can change people. Now that really can and although it changes people in the long term for the better, I can understand why people might sometimes say, Oh, my, a common one, or my my wife went to therapy, and she came when she came back, she told me that she didn't love me anymore. lol Why is that come from? Those sorts of things. When does that is apocryphal? Does that actually happen?

Fiona Biddle  21:16  
That's a tricky one, isn't it? My, my feeling and these are not things that anyone can know. Exactly. My experience is that things will come through and bubble up through any defence mechanisms when the time is right. And if the time is right, time's right. But defence mechanisms, I hope that somebody asked a question on that at some point, because it's the best bit of Freud, as far as I'm concerned, his theories on defence mechanisms. It's brilliant. And it really, really, really tells us a lot.

Unknown Speaker  21:56  
I mean, his daughter, yeah, as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Fiona Biddle  22:01  
We will talk about that, because that is, it's, it's on my list, got a list, you know, always have a list. But in my experience, things that only tend to bubble up through the defence mechanism layer, if you like, when the time is right to deal with them. And, therefore, the time is, right. I cannot think of a single time when a client has found something deep in their subconscious that they're not ready to deal with. Doesn't work like that. Life can bring things up like that. You can bring things through when you have a traumatic event. But therapy doesn't. It's when it's when you're ready. And you know, then that let's get it dealt with.

Richard Nicholls  22:52  
Yeah, I mean, worst case scenario, well, maybe not worst case. But certainly one of the common experiences people have is they'll, they'll get them on go to therapy, because because of behaviour, they've been biting their nails, or they've been a little bit frustrated, and maybe they throw a milk bottle at the wall or something like that. And they think, Okay, this is getting a bit much, I think I need to go and talk to somebody. And through exploration, they might feel that life is overwhelming them, they're taking on too much. A common story is the husband doesn't pull their weight around the house, you know, that sort of story. We've all heard them. And in exploring it the reason they've not been able to assert themselves with the husband and say, Look, I do two hours a day of housework and you sit on your backside, we need to do something about this. The reason they've never been able to be assertive, and say those sorts of things, although that was more aggressive and assertive. But in order to find that middle ground that says, Hey, honey, can we have a chat, you know, that takes confidence and assertiveness that they might not have those skills yet. And therapy can help them to gain those skills. So yes, it's common for maybe somebody to go to therapy and come back. And after a few sessions, they are a little different. And they are willing to admit there are some things that I'd like to see different. What doesn't tend to happen is some stomping their feet and go things I've got to change around here. Because if there were that that's not impossible, of course, that's not impossible. That could happen.

Fiona Biddle  24:23  
It's not impossible, but it's much more likely that any changes are going to be subtle, because they're very likely to be around acceptance and understanding. And so not huge changes. But if those three examples you just gave, I've actually heard two of those in the last day. One, not the throwing the milk bottle. But the other two, literally. So it's, we're talking about very common phenomena that people share. There's rarely something that anybody brings to therapy that's new and I would say that pretty much, much every box that stickable I've had, I haven't had anybody had, as I said before, who's admitted to murder? But I've heard of somebody having been told about murder. I mean, this. There's pretty much everything. And you can't shock us. I guess what I'm what I'm saying. You can't upset us, though. Because that's part that's part of that achievement of human reaction. You don't imagine going to your GP and saying, Oh, I don't know. Well, anything doesn't matter as an example. And the the GP crying with you, but we can cry with you. And done that. And

Richard Nicholls  25:42  
I think I've done that this week. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm, I'm human. Yeah, what I find interesting. And I know we were coming to the end of our first episode. But I noticed in my early days of therapy, I didn't. That's something that I've noticed more about me as I've got to know myself a lot better. And I'm, maybe I understand lots of things a lot better now. And I can embrace that that humaneness to being a therapist that I'm not there as some sort of solution focused character is just here to tell you what to do and how to do it and and then send you on your way to get better. No, that's that's not that's not who we are,

Fiona Biddle  26:26  
and that you've read. You've recognised that it's, even though probably, logically, you knew it was okay to be upset or to cry. But there was still an underlying thing that was saying don't. And then that that fizzles away, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Until you know, this is all right.

Richard Nicholls  26:47  
Yeah. And I think, as a therapist, if we can be, we, if we can show that we're human. It helps our clients to know that they can be human as well, that emotions are normal. Even if we have to demonstrate to them sometimes a little bit. This is it's okay to feel this. Yeah. And feeling this with

Fiona Biddle  27:06  
you. Definitely one for another nother podcast, about oh, shoot, what's the emotions are positivity, negativity, etc, etc. But we won't go into that right now.

Richard Nicholls  27:18  
Not towards the end of our first episode. And that brings us quite nicely to the end. And and thank you very much, Gillian. I do hope we answered your question. Yes. Thank you, Gillian. I think we did. Yes, I think we did. I think we I think we've got the nuts and bolts of it.

Fiona Biddle  27:33  
If you have any follow up. So Gillian, you'd be welcome to send them in. Yeah,

Richard Nicholls  27:37  
absolutely. I've lifted we'd love to hear from people that have submit questions, if there's anything else you want to expand upon. And of course, do send us some of some of your own as well. If you look into the show notes, we'll add some links in there to our contact details, send us some questions, and we'll see if we can get them answered on the show. So Fiona, that was episode one of therapy matters. Great, exciting times for us. Absolutely. We'll be off for now. And we'll be back next time with yet another question from the beautiful people. 

Fiona Biddle 28:08
Thank you.

Richard Nicholls 28:11
See you next time.