{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":39.677,"endTime":45.114000000000004,"body":"And hello to you,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":39.677,"endTime":45.114000000000004,"body":"therapy fans it's time for"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":45.414,"endTime":53.184,"body":"The podcast series, where two"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":45.414,"endTime":53.184,"body":"psychotherapists natter about"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":54.774,"endTime":55.969,"body":"I'm Richard Nicholls."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":56.034,"endTime":60.189,"body":"And with me as always is my good"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":56.034,"endTime":60.189,"body":"friend and colleague Fiona Biddle."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":60.324,"endTime":60.714,"body":"Hi there."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":60.714,"endTime":62.304,"body":"Fiona, how are you?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":62.584,"endTime":64.134,"body":"That, that made me laugh."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":64.194,"endTime":65.45400000000001,"body":"I hope somebody is listening."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":65.874,"endTime":66.26400000000001,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":66.26400000000001,"endTime":68.424,"body":"I guess we do hope somebody's listening."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":69.104,"endTime":74.654,"body":"Well, we do know that people"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":69.104,"endTime":74.654,"body":"are listening cause, um, well we get the"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":74.98400000000001,"endTime":78.824,"body":"And actually, actually we, I"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":74.98400000000001,"endTime":78.824,"body":"had an email from them that"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":81.134,"endTime":82.604,"body":"Let me tell you exactly what it was."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":87.494,"endTime":90.404,"body":"Um, it just came through,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":87.494,"endTime":90.404,"body":"it was last week."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":90.464,"endTime":91.304,"body":"Congratulations."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":91.304,"endTime":93.556,"body":"Your podcast has had 5,500 downloads."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":93.72,"endTime":95.66999999999999,"body":"I thought Oh that's nice."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":96.02699999999999,"endTime":100.737,"body":"That's 5,500 little bits of help"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":96.02699999999999,"endTime":100.737,"body":"that we've put across to people."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":100.917,"endTime":101.577,"body":"That's sweet."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":101.987,"endTime":103.52699999999999,"body":"Imagine seeing all those people in a room."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":104.112,"endTime":105.31200000000001,"body":"That is, that is lovely."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":105.34200000000001,"endTime":105.672,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":106.279,"endTime":119.239,"body":"I remember one time, uh, when I was at a"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":106.279,"endTime":119.239,"body":"seminar with somebody talking about how"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":119.299,"endTime":121.149,"body":"And I just said, how"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":119.299,"endTime":121.149,"body":"many of those were you?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":126.12800000000001,"endTime":128.007,"body":"Which, um, got a bit of a chuckle."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":128.187,"endTime":131.307,"body":"But in this case, I certainly haven't"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":128.187,"endTime":131.307,"body":"been listening to our own podcasts."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":131.307,"endTime":133.077,"body":"I presume you haven't either."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":134.037,"endTime":136.377,"body":"No, I, I hear them"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":134.037,"endTime":136.377,"body":"enough when I'm editing them down."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":136.377,"endTime":137.277,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":140.262,"endTime":146.546,"body":"So we've got a couple of"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":140.262,"endTime":146.546,"body":"questions today that we're going to try"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":147.212,"endTime":149.702,"body":"There is a little bit of overlap"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":147.212,"endTime":149.702,"body":"that I, I think we can explore."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":149.922,"endTime":161.322,"body":"Yeah, it might seem tenuous to"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":149.922,"endTime":161.322,"body":"start with, but you will understand,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":161.382,"endTime":161.772,"body":"Richard?"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":162.012,"endTime":162.522,"body":"Go for it."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":162.552,"endTime":163.03199999999998,"body":"Yes, please."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":163.12199999999999,"endTime":163.632,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":164.022,"endTime":172.97199999999998,"body":"The first one is a question from"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":164.022,"endTime":172.97199999999998,"body":"Jackie and she says, I have had a"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":173.84199999999998,"endTime":179.12199999999999,"body":"And I do believe that she has"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":173.84199999999998,"endTime":179.12199999999999,"body":"displayed varying behaviours of"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":180.232,"endTime":187.22199999999998,"body":"Over the last few years, I have had no"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":180.232,"endTime":187.22199999999998,"body":"contact as it got to a stage where I"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":188.272,"endTime":193.912,"body":"It has been difficult and I have a"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":188.272,"endTime":193.912,"body":"lot of guilt around going no contact."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":194.992,"endTime":197.572,"body":"She recently sent me a"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":194.992,"endTime":197.572,"body":"letter asking to reconnect."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":198.742,"endTime":206.03199999999998,"body":"I am scared and hesitant as I'm"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":198.742,"endTime":206.03199999999998,"body":"concerned that I again, will"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":207.352,"endTime":209.692,"body":"I'm conflicted in what to do for the best."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":210.862,"endTime":213.922,"body":"Do you have any advice on how to"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":210.862,"endTime":213.922,"body":"deal with a situation like this?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":213.922,"endTime":215.03199999999998,"body":"I'd be very grateful."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":216.50199999999998,"endTime":224.962,"body":"Now we will get into some of the"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":216.50199999999998,"endTime":224.962,"body":"detail of that in a few minutes,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":226.22199999999998,"endTime":227.612,"body":"This is from James."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":229.057,"endTime":234.007,"body":"James says I am stuck and don't know how"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":229.057,"endTime":234.007,"body":"to help my wife with her weight loss."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":234.99699999999999,"endTime":241.867,"body":"My wife, after our children,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":234.99699999999999,"endTime":241.867,"body":"continued to gain weight, it's never"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":243.007,"endTime":255.19299999999998,"body":"The extra weight now has physical side"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":243.007,"endTime":255.19299999999998,"body":"effects, such as limited movement,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":255.783,"endTime":258.293,"body":"Going for walks and playing"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":255.783,"endTime":258.293,"body":"kick around in the park."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":258.683,"endTime":263.003,"body":"Even down to moving around the"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":258.683,"endTime":263.003,"body":"house, doing some cleaning,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":264.26300000000003,"endTime":266.333,"body":"I want to help, but don't know how."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":267.383,"endTime":270.593,"body":"I can see she's trying, but how do I help?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":271.403,"endTime":276.923,"body":"I know it's my problem and get frustrated"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":271.403,"endTime":276.923,"body":"at myself that I don't know how to help"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":278.528,"endTime":281.948,"body":"I don't want an argument or for"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":278.528,"endTime":281.948,"body":"her to think any different of me."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":281.948,"endTime":282.908,"body":"If I say it wrong."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":283.778,"endTime":288.488,"body":"Her inaction and sitting on the sofa"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":283.778,"endTime":288.488,"body":"and not helping herself frustrates me."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":289.746,"endTime":302.76099999999997,"body":"So the overlap between those two"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":289.746,"endTime":302.76099999999997,"body":"is that there's something in the external"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":303.361,"endTime":307.07599999999996,"body":"And they want to know what"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":303.361,"endTime":307.07599999999996,"body":"they can do to influence it."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":307.664,"endTime":312.884,"body":"So they're both got similarities,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":307.664,"endTime":312.884,"body":"even though it sounds like these are"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":314.014,"endTime":316.334,"body":"I feel for everybody involved in this."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":316.782,"endTime":317.202,"body":"Everybody."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":318.492,"endTime":319.582,"body":"Everybody's struggling here."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":320.352,"endTime":321.102,"body":"4, Yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":322.027,"endTime":325.327,"body":"Everybody in those relationships are"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":322.027,"endTime":325.327,"body":"struggling in some way, shape or form."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":326.827,"endTime":339.481,"body":"And I think the secret, if there was one"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":326.827,"endTime":339.481,"body":"secret, the foundations to all of this"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":341.371,"endTime":342.271,"body":"And I say practicing."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":344.036,"endTime":355.586,"body":"Meaning it's not just 24 hours, seven"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":344.036,"endTime":355.586,"body":"days a week being non-judgemental"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":356.066,"endTime":357.536,"body":"And there are times you won't be."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":357.626,"endTime":358.556,"body":"There are times you'll judge."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":359.471,"endTime":365.281,"body":"Well, as human beings,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":359.471,"endTime":365.281,"body":"we judge, we do it all the time."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":365.281,"endTime":384.141,"body":"So to be nonjudgmental is an active"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":365.281,"endTime":384.141,"body":"choice to make, you know, we, we do"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":385.791,"endTime":397.791,"body":"It's completely unavoidable, but"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":385.791,"endTime":397.791,"body":"it's then what you do with it"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":398.327,"endTime":404.627,"body":"In Therapy, there's a concept from Carl"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":398.327,"endTime":404.627,"body":"Rogers of, unconditional positive regard."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":405.247,"endTime":415.837,"body":"Going back to what Richard was quoting"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":405.247,"endTime":415.837,"body":"in the last session of everybody is"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":416.252,"endTime":416.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":417.831,"endTime":430.901,"body":"So that really says that we"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":417.831,"endTime":430.901,"body":"don't have any right to judge anybody"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":433.19599999999997,"endTime":439.117,"body":"So with unconditional positive"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":433.19599999999997,"endTime":439.117,"body":"regard, the idea is that you view"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":439.147,"endTime":446.79699999999997,"body":"Maybe their behavior isn't and the one"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":439.147,"endTime":446.79699999999997,"body":"that always comes up when we discuss"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":447.277,"endTime":450.637,"body":"Can you have unconditional"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":447.277,"endTime":450.637,"body":"positive regard for Hitler"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":451.587,"endTime":452.337,"body":"He liked his dogs."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":452.627,"endTime":455.677,"body":"And he was vegetarian."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":455.827,"endTime":457.417,"body":"Yes, I was gonna"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":455.827,"endTime":457.417,"body":"say he was vegetarian."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":457.417,"endTime":458.407,"body":"He'd got some ethics."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":458.677,"endTime":459.087,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":459.677,"endTime":460.927,"body":"He knew his own mind."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":462.407,"endTime":463.397,"body":"He could paint,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":463.427,"endTime":464.467,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":464.777,"endTime":465.657,"body":"He was a painter wasn't he."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":465.677,"endTime":466.217,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":467.597,"endTime":468.347,"body":"but the, the"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":468.467,"endTime":469.217,"body":"really hard."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":469.217,"endTime":469.48699999999997,"body":"Isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":469.757,"endTime":487.252,"body":"it's  really challenging, but the"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":469.757,"endTime":487.252,"body":"essence is that as a person, you have"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":487.432,"endTime":497.36199999999997,"body":"And obviously with Hitler, there's"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":487.432,"endTime":497.36199999999997,"body":"plenty of that, that we can judge and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":498.496,"endTime":500.44599999999997,"body":"Bringing that"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":498.496,"endTime":500.44599999999997,"body":"more into the present day."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":500.646,"endTime":509.78499999999997,"body":"We look at what Putin has been"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":500.646,"endTime":509.78499999999997,"body":"doing in Eastern Europe and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":509.875,"endTime":513.595,"body":"And a lot of it is still"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":509.875,"endTime":513.595,"body":"very, very recent history."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":513.755,"endTime":515.875,"body":"The changes in the Soviet union."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":517.225,"endTime":523.655,"body":"It's a little easier for me to see,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":517.225,"endTime":523.655,"body":"oh, I can see why he's doing this."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":523.6850000000001,"endTime":524.3050000000001,"body":"He's scared."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":525.4060000000001,"endTime":530.5360000000001,"body":"For whatever reason Putin is scared, and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":525.4060000000001,"endTime":530.5360000000001,"body":"this is how he's going to defend himself."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":530.866,"endTime":532.606,"body":"This is how he's going"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":530.866,"endTime":532.606,"body":"to defend this country."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":533.605,"endTime":543.6550000000001,"body":"Maybe he sees the rest of Europe as"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":533.605,"endTime":543.6550000000001,"body":"a threat, and it's a good thing for"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":544.875,"endTime":547.3950000000001,"body":"And that certainly doesn't excuse."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":547.4150000000001,"endTime":550.4150000000001,"body":"It doesn't make what"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":547.4150000000001,"endTime":550.4150000000001,"body":"Hitler and Putin have done."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":550.8050000000001,"endTime":555.3950000000001,"body":"It doesn't make it acceptable,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":550.8050000000001,"endTime":555.3950000000001,"body":"but it comes from a place of"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":556.009,"endTime":560.029,"body":"We all just need to sit around a"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":556.009,"endTime":560.029,"body":"table and go, let's just be friends."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":560.6890000000001,"endTime":563.599,"body":"And we aren't going to be a threat and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":560.6890000000001,"endTime":563.599,"body":"we're not going to nuke each other."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":563.6890000000001,"endTime":565.639,"body":"Everything's going to be okay,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":563.6890000000001,"endTime":565.639,"body":"and we go all right then."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":565.6690000000001,"endTime":566.509,"body":"You can have your country back."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":568.1690000000001,"endTime":568.729,"body":"If only."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":570.0840000000001,"endTime":578.5740000000001,"body":"But from Jackie and James's perspective,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":570.0840000000001,"endTime":578.5740000000001,"body":"I think knowing that there is a history"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":578.5740000000001,"endTime":581.9340000000001,"body":"There's other stuff that has gone on"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":578.5740000000001,"endTime":581.9340000000001,"body":"that has led those people to that point."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":581.9340000000001,"endTime":589.614,"body":"I think is a, is a good starting"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":581.9340000000001,"endTime":589.614,"body":"block to go, okay, I get why they"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":590.124,"endTime":598.457,"body":"Both of them seem to be"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":590.124,"endTime":598.457,"body":"trying hard to be non-judgemental"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":599.4770000000001,"endTime":609.1070000000001,"body":"And going back to the idea that it is an"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":599.4770000000001,"endTime":609.1070000000001,"body":"aim, it's a, you know, this is laudable"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":610.2040000000001,"endTime":616.383,"body":"Jackie says she's seen signs of"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":610.2040000000001,"endTime":616.383,"body":"narcissistic personality disorder."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":617.0730000000001,"endTime":622.783,"body":"At the time of recording the Johnny Depp"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":617.0730000000001,"endTime":622.783,"body":"versus Amber Heard trial is still ongoing."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":623.6830000000001,"endTime":639.12,"body":"And there've been psychiatrists"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":623.6830000000001,"endTime":639.12,"body":"as witnesses there who have made"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":639.9000000000001,"endTime":642.87,"body":"Going back to that episode that"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":639.9000000000001,"endTime":642.87,"body":"we did a while ago on labels."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":643.7230000000001,"endTime":656.802,"body":"And I would suggest to Jackie, if"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":643.7230000000001,"endTime":656.802,"body":"she was sitting here in front of"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":657.777,"endTime":671.023,"body":"That might be more helpful, might be"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":657.777,"endTime":671.023,"body":"more acceptable, to her mother as well,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":672.493,"endTime":675.1120000000001,"body":"They're not in some sort"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":672.493,"endTime":675.1120000000001,"body":"of lack of awareness."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":675.1120000000001,"endTime":678.1220000000001,"body":"They might well not admit it,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":675.1120000000001,"endTime":678.1220000000001,"body":"but they do sort of know it."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":678.6020000000001,"endTime":679.892,"body":"So move away from that."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":680.633,"endTime":692.8760000000001,"body":"And for James,  I think he should"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":680.633,"endTime":692.8760000000001,"body":"really just forgive himself for"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":692.9060000000001,"endTime":694.706,"body":"He wants to help his wife."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":695.038,"endTime":696.988,"body":"but is getting nowhere."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":696.988,"endTime":704.383,"body":"So when he sees her, as he says,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":696.988,"endTime":704.383,"body":"sitting on the sofa, And doing"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":704.383,"endTime":708.0730000000001,"body":"That's, that's a judgment,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":704.383,"endTime":708.0730000000001,"body":"but  feels helpless."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":708.8230000000001,"endTime":711.553,"body":"And that's a problem when"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":708.8230000000001,"endTime":711.553,"body":"somebody feels helpless."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":712.4530000000001,"endTime":712.8130000000001,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":713.528,"endTime":717.248,"body":"Yeah, but it sounds like his"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":713.528,"endTime":717.248,"body":"wife is feeling fairly helpless."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":718.868,"endTime":721.2080000000001,"body":"And maybe that's a conversation to have."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":721.2460000000001,"endTime":725.5060000000001,"body":"If this was something scripted,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":721.2460000000001,"endTime":725.5060000000001,"body":"people could sit down and say."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":726.5260000000001,"endTime":732.316,"body":"Hun, I know that you're in pain and I know"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":726.5260000000001,"endTime":732.316,"body":"that it's hard for you to get motivated."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":732.4060000000001,"endTime":734.926,"body":"And I see the struggles"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":732.4060000000001,"endTime":734.926,"body":"that you're going through."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":735.8080000000001,"endTime":747.2030000000001,"body":"And I hear the stories from around"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":735.8080000000001,"endTime":747.2030000000001,"body":"the world of people that recover from"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":747.3530000000001,"endTime":753.5930000000001,"body":"And if there are some steps that you"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":747.3530000000001,"endTime":753.5930000000001,"body":"want to take I'm with you, I'm with you"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":754.2040000000001,"endTime":755.5740000000001,"body":"Here to motivate you, if you want."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":755.5740000000001,"endTime":757.374,"body":"I'm here to join any regime."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":757.404,"endTime":766.374,"body":"I'm here to learn about what's"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":757.404,"endTime":766.374,"body":"carbohydrates and what's protein, and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":766.5540000000001,"endTime":769.344,"body":"And if you want some"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":766.5540000000001,"endTime":769.344,"body":"help on I'm on your side."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":769.764,"endTime":774.6740000000001,"body":"If you want, I'm here for you,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":769.764,"endTime":774.6740000000001,"body":"it's not easy to say those things."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":777.214,"endTime":784.5840000000001,"body":"And both of them have the"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":777.214,"endTime":784.5840000000001,"body":"same or similar issue that the"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":785.514,"endTime":795.594,"body":"Um, Jackie's mother has reached out"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":785.514,"endTime":795.594,"body":"to her, so she has spoken, but Jackie,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":795.594,"endTime":804.1640000000001,"body":"her mother, which would obviously be"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":795.594,"endTime":804.1640000000001,"body":"difficult, but it might be sensible to,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":804.3140000000001,"endTime":807.0590000000001,"body":"whatever safe location can think of."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":807.5390000000001,"endTime":812.999,"body":"And for Jackie to say, actually,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":807.5390000000001,"endTime":812.999,"body":"you know, mum, I feel scared."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":813.851,"endTime":815.571,"body":"I, Yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":816.6410000000001,"endTime":823.941,"body":"I think it's important to use I"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":816.6410000000001,"endTime":823.941,"body":"statements because to say you scared me,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":823.941,"endTime":825.801,"body":"You gas lit, but you manipulated me."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":826.041,"endTime":828.921,"body":"That's going nowhere"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":826.041,"endTime":828.921,"body":"you know, no one wins."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":829.2510000000001,"endTime":838.1310000000001,"body":"Cause you can't, nobody can argue with"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":829.2510000000001,"endTime":838.1310000000001,"body":"the fact when you say, I feel scared,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":838.1310000000001,"endTime":838.731,"body":"argument."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":838.851,"endTime":841.191,"body":"The answer might be, you"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":838.851,"endTime":841.191,"body":"don't need to feel that way."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":842.2460000000001,"endTime":848.043,"body":"I know, I know, and I don't want"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":842.2460000000001,"endTime":848.043,"body":"to be, and thank you for reaching"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":848.493,"endTime":849.7230000000001,"body":"Thanks for agreeing to meet."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":850.023,"endTime":852.4530000000001,"body":"Um, thanks for wanting me in your life."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":852.7230000000001,"endTime":862.4730000000001,"body":"Thanks for being the parent, because if"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":852.7230000000001,"endTime":862.4730000000001,"body":"we're honest and we, we hear these stories"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":862.5930000000001,"endTime":869.283,"body":"and the children are always expecting the"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":862.5930000000001,"endTime":869.283,"body":"parents to be the parent, to be the adult"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":870.423,"endTime":881.9430000000001,"body":"And the adults, the parent might be"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":870.423,"endTime":881.9430000000001,"body":"struggling to be the one that does that"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":882.153,"endTime":889.783,"body":"And also because of"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":882.153,"endTime":889.783,"body":"their own fear of being rejected"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":890.3080000000001,"endTime":892.798,"body":"There's all sorts of things"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":890.3080000000001,"endTime":892.798,"body":"that could be going on there."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":892.878,"endTime":905.5980000000001,"body":"But getting it out in the open and using I"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":892.878,"endTime":905.5980000000001,"body":"statements in a safe location where Jackie"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":906.2180000000001,"endTime":909.878,"body":"That's important, but"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":906.2180000000001,"endTime":909.878,"body":"maybe it'll be different."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":910.0580000000001,"endTime":910.8080000000001,"body":"It could be"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":911.73,"endTime":911.8900000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":911.8900000000001,"endTime":912.86,"body":"Keep some hope."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":913.3370000000001,"endTime":919.975,"body":"It sounds like Jackie's been"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":913.3370000000001,"endTime":919.975,"body":"struggling, but as we know, with, with"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":919.975,"endTime":927.7750000000001,"body":"disorder, if that's genuinely, what would"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":919.975,"endTime":927.7750000000001,"body":"be diagnosable, there's a reason for that,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":927.865,"endTime":928.7650000000001,"body":"You don't catch that."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":928.7650000000001,"endTime":931.5550000000001,"body":"It's not like monkeypox, you know."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":932.803,"endTime":936.4060000000001,"body":"For somebody to develop any"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":932.803,"endTime":936.4060000000001,"body":"personality disorders to that extreme."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":937.3660000000001,"endTime":942.6460000000001,"body":"They've been hurt and sadly"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":937.3660000000001,"endTime":942.6460000000001,"body":"hurt people, hurt people."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":943.6360000000001,"endTime":951.6160000000001,"body":"And it's, it's hard to deal with"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":943.6360000000001,"endTime":951.6160000000001,"body":"the fact that somebody's hurting you"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":951.956,"endTime":961.076,"body":"Sounds like, Jackie's doing her"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":951.956,"endTime":961.076,"body":"best to understand this and does"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":961.076,"endTime":965.306,"body":"I know that's the reason why she's"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":961.076,"endTime":965.306,"body":"been gaslighting me, manipulating me"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":966.086,"endTime":971.581,"body":"I'm willing, hopefully,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":966.086,"endTime":971.581,"body":"maybe to forgive her for that"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":972.311,"endTime":975.971,"body":"One thing we don't"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":972.311,"endTime":975.971,"body":"know is Jackie's age."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":976.8710000000001,"endTime":977.431,"body":"That's true"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":977.711,"endTime":985.7610000000001,"body":"I think, if Jackie was a client,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":977.711,"endTime":985.7610000000001,"body":"this would depend on her age because"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":986.7560000000001,"endTime":992.195,"body":"and, and the thing in between,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":986.7560000000001,"endTime":992.195,"body":"And that will make a difference."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":992.255,"endTime":996.375,"body":"Also, has Jackie got support of her own?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":997.2950000000001,"endTime":1004.5680000000001,"body":"Does she have a partner friends, a father,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":997.2950000000001,"endTime":1004.5680000000001,"body":"we don't know about him in this equation."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1004.9380000000001,"endTime":1010.288,"body":"So for Jackie to broaden this out to"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1004.9380000000001,"endTime":1010.288,"body":"her whole sphere of relationships."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1011.618,"endTime":1012.8180000000001,"body":"Could be very useful."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1012.8180000000001,"endTime":1014.618,"body":"Does she have any brothers and sisters?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1014.7080000000001,"endTime":1018.908,"body":"Are they experiencing the same"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1014.7080000000001,"endTime":1018.908,"body":"thing, which they may or may not."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1020.408,"endTime":1031.804,"body":"That has been something that's really"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1020.408,"endTime":1031.804,"body":"surprised me in my therapeutic work"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1031.804,"endTime":1034.294,"body":"I had one a very long time ago."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1034.354,"endTime":1043.837,"body":"Who's his mother would forget his"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1034.354,"endTime":1043.837,"body":"birthday, but remember his sister's"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1045.097,"endTime":1047.947,"body":"Different years, they weren't twins."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1051.477,"endTime":1054.387,"body":"I mean, I saw your, this a podcast."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1054.387,"endTime":1058.197,"body":"You don't have a video, but I saw"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1054.387,"endTime":1058.197,"body":"Richard's face when I said that."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1059.3919999999998,"endTime":1060.982,"body":"And it, it was, it was a picture."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1061.3419999999999,"endTime":1067.3719999999998,"body":"I mean, it's sort of is it's staggering,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1061.3419999999999,"endTime":1067.3719999999998,"body":"but going back to what Richard was"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1068.1219999999998,"endTime":1070.7,"body":"Nobody does this by choice."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1071.24,"endTime":1076.34,"body":"Nobody sits there and thinks"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1071.24,"endTime":1076.34,"body":"I'm going to be this person."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1076.914,"endTime":1078.714,"body":"Nobody gaslights by choice."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1079.5539999999999,"endTime":1079.734,"body":"This is"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1079.884,"endTime":1080.274,"body":"Oh, well,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1080.3039999999999,"endTime":1082.864,"body":"no, it depends what your term as gaslight."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1082.884,"endTime":1085.134,"body":"I the, origins of gaslighting."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1085.164,"endTime":1085.404,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1085.404,"endTime":1086.124,"body":"That is through choice."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1086.124,"endTime":1088.734,"body":"Cause it's just about psychopathic,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1086.124,"endTime":1088.734,"body":"manipulation and cruelty."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1089.154,"endTime":1091.704,"body":"If you go back to the"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1089.154,"endTime":1091.704,"body":"origins of gaslighting,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1091.8139999999999,"endTime":1092.264,"body":"okay."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1092.264,"endTime":1094.3339999999998,"body":"But it's still, you don't"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1092.264,"endTime":1094.3339999999998,"body":"choose to be a psychopath."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1095.4089999999999,"endTime":1095.979,"body":"Ah, good point."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1096.039,"endTime":1096.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1096.639,"endTime":1096.9689999999998,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1097.089,"endTime":1097.499,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1097.899,"endTime":1098.1689999999999,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1098.484,"endTime":1098.754,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1098.7839999999999,"endTime":1100.884,"body":"This afternoon I don't have"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1098.7839999999999,"endTime":1100.884,"body":"much to do this afternoon."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1100.884,"endTime":1102.714,"body":"I think I'm going to Gaslight somebody."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1102.8039999999999,"endTime":1104.154,"body":"No, nobody does that."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1106.0739999999998,"endTime":1106.434,"body":"Do they?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1107.624,"endTime":1108.144,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1108.174,"endTime":1108.5939999999998,"body":"Do they?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1108.5939999999998,"endTime":1109.3139999999999,"body":"I hope they don't."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1109.434,"endTime":1114.8339999999998,"body":"I'm not going to, even though I don't"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1109.434,"endTime":1114.8339999999998,"body":"have much to do this afternoon and I think"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1115.012,"endTime":1117.232,"body":"You're certainly"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1115.012,"endTime":1117.232,"body":"not naive  in this respect."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1117.8319999999999,"endTime":1121.777,"body":"But yeah, they do."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1123.0069999999998,"endTime":1123.547,"body":"Yeah, they"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1123.702,"endTime":1127.032,"body":"I am often called"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1123.702,"endTime":1127.032,"body":"naive, so that's okay."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1127.692,"endTime":1128.232,"body":"They do."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1128.887,"endTime":1129.7269999999999,"body":"Yeah, they do."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1129.937,"endTime":1130.177,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1130.2269999999999,"endTime":1135.6989999999998,"body":"It's a rare and often when people"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1130.2269999999999,"endTime":1135.6989999999998,"body":"use the term gas lighting, It"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1135.729,"endTime":1137.139,"body":"It is just, oh, somebody was."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1137.1889999999999,"endTime":1138.879,"body":"They had a defense mechanism."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1139.232,"endTime":1141.452,"body":"They were fooling themselves"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1139.232,"endTime":1141.452,"body":"and they were lying."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1141.752,"endTime":1142.982,"body":"That's not gaslighting."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1143.3719999999998,"endTime":1147.1019999999999,"body":"Gaslighting is a purely"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1143.3719999999998,"endTime":1147.1019999999999,"body":"manipulative power struggle."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1147.3319999999999,"endTime":1159.242,"body":"And that could be, that is exactly"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1147.3319999999999,"endTime":1159.242,"body":"what Jackie's mum's been doing,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1159.6019999999999,"endTime":1169.902,"body":"And so if somebody does feel the"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1159.6019999999999,"endTime":1169.902,"body":"need to gaslight and manipulate and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1170.8619999999999,"endTime":1175.922,"body":"So yeah, that definitely could be"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1170.8619999999999,"endTime":1175.922,"body":"going on and it's horrible isn't it."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1176.012,"endTime":1179.292,"body":"And Jackie, if that went on in"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1176.012,"endTime":1179.292,"body":"your childhood, I'm so sorry."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1179.712,"endTime":1180.312,"body":"Good God."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1181.172,"endTime":1194.418,"body":"Yeah, To forgive somebody for that"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1181.172,"endTime":1194.418,"body":"is hard, but in that forgiveness,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1195.4679999999998,"endTime":1199.098,"body":"And that might take a lot"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1195.4679999999998,"endTime":1199.098,"body":"of exploring to do that."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1199.6979999999999,"endTime":1205.788,"body":"Whether that's in therapy or with your own"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1199.6979999999999,"endTime":1205.788,"body":"inner therapy, being your own therapist."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1207.2079999999999,"endTime":1208.638,"body":"It's going to take a lot of work."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1209.838,"endTime":1210.328,"body":"Really is."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1210.348,"endTime":1212.9579999999999,"body":"Almost as much work as"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1210.348,"endTime":1212.9579999999999,"body":"by the sound of things."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1213.598,"endTime":1221.758,"body":"James' wife is gonna need, if she does"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1213.598,"endTime":1221.758,"body":"want to become fitter and healthier,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1222.658,"endTime":1223.7379999999998,"body":"It's really not."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1224.608,"endTime":1226.648,"body":"And James is struggling with that."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1227.008,"endTime":1231.778,"body":"The fact that he wants to"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1227.008,"endTime":1231.778,"body":"click his fingers, wave a magic"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1232.302,"endTime":1239.165,"body":"Because his wife, isn't happy and it's"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1232.302,"endTime":1239.165,"body":"hard to think my wife isn't happy."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1239.225,"endTime":1240.335,"body":"I'm her husband."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1240.845,"endTime":1241.925,"body":"Why isn't she happy?"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1241.985,"endTime":1243.455,"body":"What can I do?"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1245.075,"endTime":1246.845,"body":"There's an element of"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1245.075,"endTime":1246.845,"body":"patriarchy there that"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1246.845,"endTime":1250.5349999999999,"body":"says happiness is my responsibility,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1246.845,"endTime":1250.5349999999999,"body":"or maybe that's just love."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1251.162,"endTime":1261.6119999999999,"body":"If that email had come though"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1251.162,"endTime":1261.6119999999999,"body":"completely the other way round"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1263.222,"endTime":1277.061,"body":"And you know, If James had been Jemima"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1263.222,"endTime":1277.061,"body":"and wanting to help her husband to lose"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1277.377,"endTime":1285.357,"body":"You know, we want to help the people"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1277.377,"endTime":1285.357,"body":"we love and it is often the hardest."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1285.7169999999999,"endTime":1287.907,"body":"It's the hardest thing to do."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1288.493,"endTime":1296.023,"body":"And there's a phrase that comes through"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1288.493,"endTime":1296.023,"body":"well, sort of comes from transactional"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1296.473,"endTime":1298.513,"body":"It's about people saying yes, but."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1299.153,"endTime":1302.848,"body":"They define things in TA"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1299.153,"endTime":1302.848,"body":"is as being specific games."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1302.848,"endTime":1305.068,"body":"And one is the why don't you?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1305.068,"endTime":1306.778,"body":"Yes, but game."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1307.4879999999998,"endTime":1310.368,"body":"The thing with TA games is there's"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1307.4879999999998,"endTime":1310.368,"body":"always a switch at the end."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1311.358,"endTime":1317.175,"body":"So I noticed that Jackie mentioned"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1311.358,"endTime":1317.175,"body":"games, so it'd be interesting to see"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1317.175,"endTime":1326.985,"body":"to it like this, but in terms of"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1317.175,"endTime":1326.985,"body":"James with his wife, he's doing this,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1327.705,"endTime":1328.485,"body":"Come to the park."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1329.085,"endTime":1331.5149999999999,"body":"Why don't you vacuum the lounge?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1331.605,"endTime":1333.798,"body":"Which does sound a little bit patriarchal."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1334.205,"endTime":1335.855,"body":"but we don't know the situation."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1335.905,"endTime":1336.925,"body":"But why don't you?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1336.925,"endTime":1341.575,"body":"And she goes, and again, I'm"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1336.925,"endTime":1341.575,"body":"jumping to conclusions because"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1341.575,"endTime":1346.665,"body":"But I would imagine she's saying yes, but"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1341.575,"endTime":1346.665,"body":"I can't do that my knees, well, yes, but."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1346.8799999999999,"endTime":1355.1029999999998,"body":"Whatever, always look out for"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1346.8799999999999,"endTime":1355.1029999999998,"body":"people who are yes, butting you,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1355.868,"endTime":1356.168,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1356.4099999999999,"endTime":1369.35,"body":"And that is one of the"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1356.4099999999999,"endTime":1369.35,"body":"advantages of therapy, in that, even"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1369.8,"endTime":1380.47,"body":"And so when a therapist says, why"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1369.8,"endTime":1380.47,"body":"don't you create a little plan for what"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1381.591,"endTime":1389.963,"body":"They're quite likely to do so much more"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1381.591,"endTime":1389.963,"body":"likely to do so than if said client's"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1389.963,"endTime":1394.174,"body":"And more importantly, even"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1389.963,"endTime":1394.174,"body":"if they come back for the following"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1394.444,"endTime":1395.674,"body":"then there's something to explore."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1396.128,"endTime":1397.058,"body":"That's that's"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1397.4279999999999,"endTime":1398.944,"body":"I wonder what was going on"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1399.008,"endTime":1400.388,"body":"That's information."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1400.5839999999998,"endTime":1405.849,"body":"So I've often had students, or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1400.5839999999998,"endTime":1405.849,"body":"relatively new people in the profession."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1405.899,"endTime":1408.944,"body":"Supervisees who say, oh, they"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1405.899,"endTime":1408.944,"body":"wouldn't do the homework."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1408.944,"endTime":1410.954,"body":"And I say, great, brilliant."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1411.759,"endTime":1414.465,"body":"You got something to"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1411.759,"endTime":1414.465,"body":"say, you got now you got something"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1415.2749999999999,"endTime":1417.059,"body":"Yeah, because then"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1415.2749999999999,"endTime":1417.059,"body":"you've got something to explore."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1417.299,"endTime":1421.9189999999999,"body":"If they're doing everything you"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1417.299,"endTime":1421.9189999999999,"body":"say and not getting anywhere,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1421.9189999999999,"endTime":1423.569,"body":"There's something else to be exploring."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1423.989,"endTime":1425.879,"body":"There's always something to explore."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1425.972,"endTime":1436.165,"body":"But yeah, I think that going back to"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1425.972,"endTime":1436.165,"body":"saying to James about talking to his"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1436.251,"endTime":1437.6129999999998,"body":"And the wooden leg"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1438.5629999999999,"endTime":1440.5629999999999,"body":"Oh, yes, good old wooden leg."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1440.907,"endTime":1443.807,"body":"And again that came"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1440.907,"endTime":1443.807,"body":"out of TA and Eric Berne."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1444.1409999999998,"endTime":1448.9109999999998,"body":"Because he could see that people did play"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1444.1409999999998,"endTime":1448.9109999999998,"body":"these games that say, well, what'd you"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1450.021,"endTime":1451.281,"body":"Of course, I can't do that exercise."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1451.281,"endTime":1456.3809999999999,"body":"What'd you expect of somebody with"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1451.281,"endTime":1456.3809999999999,"body":"knackered knees what do you expect"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1456.441,"endTime":1457.3709999999999,"body":"Of course I'm overweight."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1457.4009999999998,"endTime":1461.241,"body":"I'm just what'd you expect, because this"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1457.4009999999998,"endTime":1461.241,"body":"is what mums are supposed to look like."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1461.3609999999999,"endTime":1462.711,"body":"I'm the mum shape, now."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1462.941,"endTime":1466.1009999999999,"body":"What do you expect of a mum for example?"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1467.876,"endTime":1475.706,"body":"And once you notice that you're"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1467.876,"endTime":1475.706,"body":"playing that game, that's when you"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1475.706,"endTime":1481.4959999999999,"body":"I see the game I'm playing here and I"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1475.706,"endTime":1481.4959999999999,"body":"don't like the direction it's going in."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1482.299,"endTime":1486.639,"body":"If we changed the direction, we"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1482.299,"endTime":1486.639,"body":"changed the rules, we changed the game"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1487.119,"endTime":1493.629,"body":"Even if the outcome is things hardly"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1487.119,"endTime":1493.629,"body":"improve, fine, they didn't get worse."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1494.424,"endTime":1498.8339999999998,"body":"And they improved a little bit fine,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1494.424,"endTime":1498.8339999999998,"body":"even if they stay the same fine."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1500.0639999999999,"endTime":1503.124,"body":"If your worries were, this is"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1500.0639999999999,"endTime":1503.124,"body":"just going to get worse and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1503.124,"endTime":1504.204,"body":"And he doesn't then great."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1506.013,"endTime":1508.8029999999999,"body":"I'm thinking"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1506.013,"endTime":1508.8029999999999,"body":"about James and his wife."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1509.9589999999998,"endTime":1515.816,"body":"There are probably things that James'"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1509.9589999999998,"endTime":1515.816,"body":"wife, isn't that happy about with James."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1517.586,"endTime":1525.599,"body":"Probably things that she would think"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1517.586,"endTime":1525.599,"body":"it would be better in his life if"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1526.019,"endTime":1535.5059999999999,"body":"So by opening up the conversation"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1526.019,"endTime":1535.5059999999999,"body":"to let's just, just express"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1536.339,"endTime":1538.759,"body":"Well, that's got to be good hasn't it?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1539.729,"endTime":1540.609,"body":"It's got to be good."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1540.932,"endTime":1548.298,"body":"And normally that would be"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1540.932,"endTime":1548.298,"body":"the domain of couples counseling, where"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1548.748,"endTime":1552.627,"body":"And to hear behind the stories and go,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1548.748,"endTime":1552.627,"body":"ah, but you hear what he said there."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1552.9569999999999,"endTime":1554.7669999999998,"body":"Do you hear what was"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1552.9569999999999,"endTime":1554.7669999999998,"body":"going on underneath there?"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1554.787,"endTime":1555.2669999999998,"body":"Well, no."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1555.867,"endTime":1564.097,"body":"Well, let's, let's explore that without"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1555.867,"endTime":1564.097,"body":"interruption and without judgment, now"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1565.077,"endTime":1566.7569999999998,"body":"But the process is the same."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1567.627,"endTime":1580.557,"body":"It means learning to be an"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1567.627,"endTime":1580.557,"body":"efficient or effective listener,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1580.557,"endTime":1588.35,"body":"There's a technique that they"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1580.557,"endTime":1588.35,"body":"often use in couples counseling, where"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1588.4099999999999,"endTime":1595.317,"body":"when they're holding that thing,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1588.4099999999999,"endTime":1595.317,"body":"they can speak and the other person"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1595.317,"endTime":1601.377,"body":"So one minute or five minutes"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1595.317,"endTime":1601.377,"body":"or whatever it is you hold on"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1602.2369999999999,"endTime":1604.937,"body":"When your time's done, doesn't"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1602.2369999999999,"endTime":1604.937,"body":"have to be that formal."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1604.937,"endTime":1610.037,"body":"But when that time is done, if that's"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1604.937,"endTime":1610.037,"body":"the way you're doing it, you hand"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1610.637,"endTime":1611.7469999999998,"body":"They can then speak."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1612.7069999999999,"endTime":1615.243,"body":"sounds sounds a little bit."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1615.557,"endTime":1616.9969999999998,"body":"Yeah, course it has."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1617.673,"endTime":1621.6129999999998,"body":"Because it is quite"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1617.673,"endTime":1621.6129999999998,"body":"funny, but way of keeping."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1621.8629999999998,"endTime":1626.6129999999998,"body":"It does work because it forces"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1621.8629999999998,"endTime":1626.6129999999998,"body":"people to, I'm not going to"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1626.6129999999998,"endTime":1628.3229999999999,"body":"I'm not going to say anything"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1626.6129999999998,"endTime":1628.3229999999999,"body":"cause I'm not allowed."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1628.683,"endTime":1632.8229999999999,"body":"But once that becomes a skill,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1628.683,"endTime":1632.8229999999999,"body":"once that becomes well, this"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1633.273,"endTime":1640.3529999999998,"body":"You talk and I listen, not you"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1633.273,"endTime":1640.3529999999998,"body":"talk and I'm preparing what I'm"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1641.298,"endTime":1646.908,"body":"Learning to be an effective listener,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1641.298,"endTime":1646.908,"body":"learning to hold the spoon, hold"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1647.118,"endTime":1653.272,"body":"Whatever it's going to be,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1647.118,"endTime":1653.272,"body":"I think is, really, really"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1653.302,"endTime":1669.6319999999998,"body":"And I think both James and his wife and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1653.302,"endTime":1669.6319999999998,"body":"Jackie and her mum, have got a part to"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1670.105,"endTime":1673.2749999999999,"body":"Just going back to that idea"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1670.105,"endTime":1673.2749999999999,"body":"of the holding, the whatever conch?"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1673.405,"endTime":1674.3049999999998,"body":"That's an interesting one."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1674.588,"endTime":1676.1779999999999,"body":"You mentioned about learning to listen."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1676.808,"endTime":1688.396,"body":"One of the key listening skills that"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1676.808,"endTime":1688.396,"body":"we learn as therapists is reflecting"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1688.596,"endTime":1689.896,"body":"Feels really fake,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1691.357,"endTime":1692.4969999999998,"body":"It seems a bit patronizing"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1692.541,"endTime":1695.331,"body":"the, but the clients"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1692.541,"endTime":1695.331,"body":"don't perceive it as that."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1695.9009999999998,"endTime":1710.8709999999999,"body":"And it can be a very useful skill"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1695.9009999999998,"endTime":1710.8709999999999,"body":"to learn, for yourself in terms"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1711.714,"endTime":1713.664,"body":"It helps them to feel heard."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1713.664,"endTime":1725.904,"body":"It also helps you to understand or to"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1713.664,"endTime":1725.904,"body":"say, it seems like you're saying that"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1725.904,"endTime":1729.864,"body":"That's what I feel or they'll"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1725.904,"endTime":1729.864,"body":"no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1731.004,"endTime":1732.144,"body":"You've not got that right."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1732.354,"endTime":1733.224,"body":"I feel this,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1734.404,"endTime":1734.724,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1734.774,"endTime":1736.624,"body":"But it leads to that understanding."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1737.596,"endTime":1738.2259999999999,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1738.916,"endTime":1739.216,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1739.876,"endTime":1741.5259999999998,"body":"That's why it's so powerful."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1741.7359999999999,"endTime":1750.2559999999999,"body":"And so parodied you see any"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1741.7359999999999,"endTime":1750.2559999999999,"body":"TV show or film that's got a"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1750.706,"endTime":1751.186,"body":"Hm."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1751.336,"endTime":1752.636,"body":"Just feeding it back."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1753.876,"endTime":1756.2559999999999,"body":"It's never, it's very rarely done well."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1756.556,"endTime":1759.136,"body":"There are occasions when"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1756.556,"endTime":1759.136,"body":"media gets it right."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1759.2259999999999,"endTime":1761.566,"body":"But it's not usually done properly."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1762.549,"endTime":1768.1789999999999,"body":"I would agree it's more often"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1762.549,"endTime":1768.1789999999999,"body":"done badly than well, but there are"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1768.1789999999999,"endTime":1773.519,"body":"brilliant, but I won't name it now"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1768.1789999999999,"endTime":1773.519,"body":"because it certainly wouldn't be suitable"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1773.759,"endTime":1774.319,"body":"Shall we say."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1775.399,"endTime":1775.6989999999998,"body":"Ooer."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1775.9689999999998,"endTime":1778.1509999999998,"body":"We'll talk about that off mic."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1778.701,"endTime":1778.791,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1779.191,"endTime":1782.9389999999999,"body":"It's very, very, very, very X, X, X rated."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1783.25,"endTime":1784.6699999999998,"body":"I think I know the one, you mean,"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1784.8799999999999,"endTime":1785.71,"body":"It's hilarious."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1785.729,"endTime":1786.299,"body":"But yeah."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1787.039,"endTime":1792.019,"body":"well, speaking of off"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1787.039,"endTime":1792.019,"body":"mic, we've come to a time where we"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1792.019,"endTime":1798.229,"body":"could be here all day talking and"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1792.019,"endTime":1798.229,"body":"nattering about all of this, and we've"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1798.6689999999999,"endTime":1800.899,"body":"I hope we've planted a seed."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1801.479,"endTime":1806.6989999999998,"body":"To get people thinking about these"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1801.479,"endTime":1806.6989999999998,"body":"sorts of scenarios, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1806.759,"endTime":1814.829,"body":"that's involved, or for anybody going"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1806.759,"endTime":1814.829,"body":"through something similar or totally"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1814.847,"endTime":1823.8899999999999,"body":"Because there's a lot of cross"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1814.847,"endTime":1823.8899999999999,"body":"transferable content I think, in all"},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1824.139,"endTime":1824.649,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1825.789,"endTime":1826.059,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1826.059,"endTime":1827.899,"body":"I guess we better love"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1826.059,"endTime":1827.899,"body":"you and leave you folks."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1828.3709999999999,"endTime":1829.731,"body":"Have another super week."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1829.991,"endTime":1832.991,"body":"And if you need anything,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1829.991,"endTime":1832.991,"body":"you know where to find us."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1833.099,"endTime":1833.896,"body":"Do send in your questions."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1833.896,"endTime":1844.9009999999998,"body":"if you need a therapist,"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1833.896,"endTime":1844.9009999999998,"body":"you know where to find one of them"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1844.961,"endTime":1846.461,"body":"There are some great folk in there."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1846.521,"endTime":1853.751,"body":"I definitely recommend you look"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1846.521,"endTime":1853.751,"body":"those up at hypnotherapy.org.uk"},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1855.561,"endTime":1857.041,"body":"Anyway, love you and leave you folks."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1857.1009999999999,"endTime":1857.841,"body":"Have a nice week."},{"speaker":"Richard","startTime":1857.8709999999999,"endTime":1858.751,"body":"Take care, everybody."},{"speaker":"Fiona","startTime":1858.751,"endTime":1859.571,"body":"Bye."}]}