Inner Voices

In this episode of Therapy Natters, Richard & Fiona are exploring the interplay between safety and happiness, and the importance of confronting and understanding the messages from our inner voice.

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Richard 0:39

Hello everybody peeps! Welcome to the Therapy Natters podcast. It's time for another episode where myself, Richard Nicholls, and my co host fellow hypno psychotherapist Fiona Biddle, we do our very best to try and help you to understand yourself that little bit better. He says, stumbling over his words. Oh, good day Fiona. How are you?

Fiona 1:03

I am fine, thanks Richard. How are you?

Richard 1:05

Gusty. It's a gusty day here.

Fiona 1:08

I haven't been outside, I don't know.

Richard 1:10

I live quite high up on a hill, so all the gusts, if they're gonna go anywhere, they come battering against the side of our house. I had to take some recycling out earlier on. Paper went everywhere, absolutely everywhere. I spent more time picking it up.

Fiona 1:24

Oh dear, dear,

Richard 1:25

Like, you could have waited, you fool. We're recording these a little bit in advance so that we don't get too overwhelmed. So, when this comes out it's about Easter time. Yeah, I don't know if it's still gusty. But hopefully

Fiona 1:38

Probably, but there should be hope. Whereas there's not. much hope at the moment, is there, in this short term.

Richard 1:44

I've been checking the weather forecast for the weekend because we've got a little bit of rain and heavy wind today. And we record these on a Friday. And on Sunday, there's more heavy wind, more heavy rain. But tomorrow, it's okay. Which is good for me. Well, very good for Dawn, my wife, because she's doing a 12K off road run tomorrow. In Cannock Chase, which will be fun. But I think underfoot, it's going to be a bit damp.

Fiona 2:13

Bit muddy?

Richard 2:15

Yeah, I think so. It's going to be a muddy run tomorrow. But, she's done it before. I'm sure she can do it again. She'll just get filthy. That's okay. You've just got to embrace it. Embrace the mud!

Fiona 2:27

Absolutely. Remember those Does that still Things still happen? Tough Mudder?

Richard 2:32

Think so, Dawn did do one,

Fiona 2:35

my boys did them.

Richard 2:37

Yeah, I think they still go on. They're pretty, they are pretty tough and they're pretty muddy.

Fiona 2:41

Yeah.

Richard 2:42

For sure, she was filthy. Which for a, is my wife a perfectionist? Sorry, I can, she doesn't listen to this, she's never going to listen to this. Is she a perfectionist? Oh yes, yes absolutely. She, she does have this streak that runs through her that says, um, if it's not right It ain't worth doing. And I think, that's not fair. I've challenged her on it over the years, she goes from extremes. She can either procrastinate, nothing gets done, or everything gets done and it's perfect, and there is no in between. And it's such a common thing for people to bring into the therapy room. I'm like, why does everybody remind me of my wife? Freud would have a field day. My old phrase of, nothing's a problem unless it causes problems. You know, my wife isn't in therapy because she copes with it okay.

Fiona 3:40

it to be a problem.

Richard 3:41

It's not a problem. But for some, that perfectionism, that message that runs through them that says, well if it's not perfect, don't do it, is really quite sabotaging because then you don't get started because of this inner voice

Fiona 3:57

Yeah, the

Richard 3:58

we need to challenge those things.

Fiona 3:59

The chatter that says these These things I mean, we're going to talk about perfectionism and procrastination later on in these episodes, I believe, but we're going to talk about the inner voice today. So, well done for getting us there. You

Richard 4:14

I shoehorned it in quite

Fiona 4:15

always find a way. the inner voice can be saying anything, so let's talk, do you, do you want to have a little go at explaining what we mean by The

Richard 4:24

An inner voice, well first off, let's say what it isn't. we mean, what we're meaning by inner voice, hearing a voice in your head. We're not talking about the psychosis, hallucinations or command hallucinations that, are a result of things like schizophrenia and so on. That's not what we mean. Those sorts of inner voices are outside of my remit, I will be to a

Fiona 4:48

We, we're not, we're not qualified to diagnose or work with those sorts of voices, but if that is something that interests anybody who's listening, you might like to know there's an organization called the Hearing Voices Network. there's a UK branches all over the world. but that's a, a place where anybody can go for advice to see, I mean obviously go for medical help as well. But, it's, got a level of rationality about it. with that organization, rather than jumping to conclusions of this is serious, this is dangerous, this is, you know, this is horrible. but it's, it's sort of a little bit of bringing things down. Okay, let's, let's look at this.

Richard 5:34

Because, I'm making an assumption here, because I'm, again, as a therapist rather than a psychiatrist, that's not what we work with. Not with that as a symptom anyway, not on its own. When somebody is hearing those voices in their head that are telling them things about themselves, and telling them things about other people, or telling them to do things, I do wonder if all that is, all, is just the normal inner voices that everybody else has, But but just clearer because I think because we all have an inner voice. We all have. Some people might call it a conscience. It's just something that's in the background that gives us a bit of information about our past, about ourselves, about our values Whether, well, hmm, about values that might not be our values that could have been given to us by somebody else that says, What would people think? You get a voice in your head that says, well, what would people think? And it might not be words. It might be feelings that then you consciously then turn into words.

Fiona 6:42

yeah, for you and I, and for therapists in general, we can't really know because we don't work with it and we haven't experienced it. So Uh, we don't, we don't know, but there is that organization, Hearing Voices Network. So if this is something that's, of interest to you, go there. yeah, I mean, I, I, I remember working with a client years ago who, who said right up upfront, she said that her issue was that she thinks all the time and her boyfriend her boyfriend had told her that she was unusual. Because nobody else thinks all the time, so, really? Really? I'm not quite sure who's the unusual one here.

Richard 7:29

Well, maybe he's just super skilled at mindfulness and meditation, and he can have an empty mind.

Fiona 7:34

Well, who, who knows? I mean, I've no idea what was going on for him. but Certainly for her, she needed the reassurance that, no, people do generally, think and feel, all the time unless you're, you know, if you, if you're completely engrossed in something, then in one sense, you're not thinking and feeling, because you're completely engrossed, but that engrossed is the feeling.

Richard 7:59

Yes. you're still, you're absorbing something, even if it's a book. You're hearing the words that are in the book in your head. Potentially. Or you're reacting to the film that you're watching or whatever. There's still stuff going

Fiona 8:13

yes, unless you're unconscious,

Richard 8:16

Yeah. And even then, who knows?

Fiona 8:18

who knows, but it's, but then, but then that's the unconscious. The conscious mind is the bit that's doing the, sort of the bit that's doing the thinking and feeling, although it's coming from the unconscious, oh, it's, it's blooming complicated, but the thing is that we have inner voices. We all

Richard 8:33

And sometimes, for some people, they're helpful. And sometimes they're not. Although, as I say that, Even those things that are going on in the mind that you might think are sabotaging, that are unhelpful, they serve a purpose. If you have an inner voice that says you're a piece of crap, don't go to that party, everybody will hate you, that serves a purpose. There's a reason why that's there. And ignoring it and pretending that it's not happening, or fighting it, I don't think is helpful. I think we do need to listen to it and go, what are you trying to help me with here, brain?

Fiona 9:11

Yeah, I mean,

Richard 9:12

for your help,

Fiona 9:12

I'll, I'll speak for you as well here. We start from a premise that anything that's going on in the mind from the subconscious, unconscious, whatever it is, has a positive intent.

Richard 9:24

Yeah, the annoying thing, though, is that our subconscious, our unconscious it doesn't want us to be happy as such. It wants us to be safe. Sometimes being safe. makes us happy, but sometimes it holds us back and makes us unhappy. But the brain prioritises safety over well being, unfortunately.

Fiona 9:47

Well, I mean, logically, it should, shouldn't it? I mean, there's no point in being happy and dead.

Richard 9:56

Fair point. Yes. Which is why evolutionary psychologists go mad about it. Because, yeah, there's everything serves a purpose. It's kept us safe, whether it's how we attach to our caregivers to make sure that we can be seen. And that's why that's so important. And if that was a problem when you were a baby or a toddler, or even as a youngster, If your needs weren't being met, then yeah, your brain's going to focus on that and go, that's really important. I need to make sure that everybody can see me and that people see me positively, which then can turn into a mantra in your mind. Those inner voices that say, you need to be a people pleaser. You need to say, yes, you need to exist positively in people's minds. And that infects everything else. I've had,

Fiona 10:43

to be approved of.

Richard 10:44

yeah, I've had clients.

Fiona 10:46

you do has to be approved of.

Richard 10:48

Yeah, the symptoms of this can be bizarre. I've had clients in the past where, and I know I'm not alone in this. Somebody might have come with fall anxiety. Maybe they're getting a little bit doddery on their legs, they're not as strong as they used to be, but they're still capable of walking, but they've developed a fall anxiety. And we play around with it, and it's, it's not really about fall anxiety, because they, they're fairly confident that even if I fell I'll be okay. It's, but if I fell, what would people think? They'll think I'm a silly old man, or I'm a silly old woman. That's what they'll think. And I don't want people thinking that about me. So, these, these background mantras, schemas that, that run, they really can infest every part of us.

Fiona 11:39

So, not surprisingly, this comes down to firstly building an awareness of what your voices are saying, so listening to them, but then working with them. So if you're inner voice is saying, don't go to this party because nobody will like you, you can then have a look at where that's coming from, what evidence is there to suggest that that is a valid viewpoint? And you probably find that there isn't a lot of evidence that that's a valid viewpoint.

Richard 12:13

Because if you do enough of that work as the months go by, you can gain an acceptance that maybe some people won't like you. And that's okay. And that takes great self esteem. But you can boost your self esteem as time goes by by accepting and acknowledging who you are. And maybe maybe there are more. interesting people in the world. It'd be strange if there wasn't. Maybe there's even more fun people to be around in your friendship group. What are the chances that you are the most fun person in your friendship group? And it's okay if you're not.

Fiona 12:54

Absolutely, and sometimes, who wants the fun person? You might want somebody who's not the fun person, if that's not the place you're in. So, very often, of course, when somebody doesn't like you, it's not the you that they don't like. It's a projection of something within themselves, or that you remind them of somebody else. Who they didn't like.

Richard 13:16

Stereotypes. What the brain does. And I think of myself as quite a fun guy to be around. I know I can be too much for people. I know that. I've been told that. And that's okay. I'm okay with that. I have to rein myself in sometimes when I realise I'm being a bit much, I'm being a bit Richard. And I rein myself in a bit. But I no longer judge myself over that like I did 20 years ago before I became a therapist. Or hadn't been a therapist for very long and hadn't had enough therapy.

Fiona 13:53

Of course you know how to behave appropriately in different circumstances. I mean, it's about a year since we were at a funeral together. You weren't the bouncy Richard at that funeral.

Richard 14:05

Shaun did tell me off.

Fiona 14:06

Did he?

Richard 14:07

Oh yeah, me And Zayna were talking Inappropriate things.

Fiona 14:13

In the church.

Richard 14:15

It was outside. We were waiting. For God's sake Richard, this is a funeral, will you behave? Okay, will do Shaun, sorry.

Fiona 14:21

Well, I don't recall. No, I mean, to me that would be, obviously I didn't, I didn't notice or I don't remember,

Richard 14:29

Geoff wouldn't have minded.

Fiona 14:30

Geoff wouldn't have minded. at all, but yes, but you wouldn't do it in the church, and you wouldn't have done it if you were interacting with the family, for example, would you? And there are people who, who don't know these things, who behave, in quotes, inappropriately. But that's using my value system to determine what's inappropriate.

Richard 14:52

Yeah. Sometimes. We probably aren't going to please everybody. Well, no, we can never please everybody. There's always going to be somebody that might think, and will think, I'd rather they hadn't have done that or said that. Even if it's just for a fleeting second. We can't prevent that unless we never have any social interaction.

Fiona 15:16

so, I'm thinking about inner voices and, I, my mind just took me to an occasion at a conference when somebody criticized one of the speakers for having a potty mouth. It was the first time I'd heard the phrase potty mouth.

Richard 15:31

Potty mouth.

Fiona 15:32

And to me what that showed me was that that speaker didn't have an inner voice that was saying, Now, this is a professional environment, that you don't know the audience, so it's probably better to tone your language down. They didn't have that inner voice. Their inner voice was, be yourself. I mean, I'm obviously, um, guessing because I don't know what, I'm making an assumption, I don't know what the inner voice was saying. So sometimes, even though in one sense it might seem that it's a critical one, it might be actually doing you good.

Richard 16:09

But when you've got a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, deciding which one to listen to is important.

Fiona 16:19

In the Evolve to Thrive section on inner voices. We've got an exercise which actually does specifically that, that you can,

Richard 16:26

Give it a name

Fiona 16:27

can give your negative and positive, I'll put it in that order, negative and positive, because you don't need to do anything with the positive ones. You know, that's, that's

Richard 16:37

Yeah, don't challenge those.

Fiona 16:38

if you've got, if you've got positive voices, that's great. so you can give names to the negative and positive versions. You might not actually have the positive version, you might need to create It because the negative one might not be challenged until now. but, yeah, so you can name them, you can call them Devil and Angel. in, in the example that, I gave, I called them Howard and Hilda. You need to be of certain age to remember Howard and Hilda. Um,

Richard 17:07

decreasing

Fiona 17:08

it. was ever

Richard 17:08

Howard and Hilda, the neighbours.

Fiona 17:10

the neighbours. from ever decreasing circles who, dressed alike and were basically one person but in two halves. Um, so I don't know why that popped into my head when I was doing this example, but I got Howard as the negative and for my own example, I did one this morning using exactly our spreadsheet on it. Howard's the negative and Hilda's the positive and that's partly, I think, because it's sort of, the male's going to be the negative and the female's going to be the positive, but that's just the way that I see things. It could easily be the other way around, and it could be the other way around if it was something else, I suspect. Anyway, that's pretty irrelevant, but you can then write down what Howard is saying to you, and when I did the example this morning, Howard said, had quite a lot to say. It wasn't just a don't do X. I'm not going into the details of what it was, but it wasn't just don't do X. it was quite long and lots of reasons why not to do X. which quite surprised me, but I just went with it, just wrote it all down. And then I had to create the Hilda because I didn't really have the positive that was counteracting the negative at that point. but I just let Hilda speak. just let it go. And so I've now got Hilda's version, which of course is more logical and rational because it's thought through and Howard's is coming from a felt sense, it's coming from a, an unconscious protective point, but that's not rational. So now I've got Hilda's that I can listen to Hilda, and not to Howard. We talked in series one about interviews specifically, didn't we? and talked about the fact that, yeah, I think we did. That, it's actually a really good opportunity to, to try this out because you don't know what the person's agenda is. Who's, who's hiring. So it's almost certainly not you that's being actually rejected. It's that you're not, exactly what fits for them,

Richard 19:30

it. doesn't mean that you are unacceptable because they have accepted somebody else any more than accepting you doesn't mean that anybody else is unacceptable. No. if they've only got one space and there's a hundred people going for it,

Fiona 19:46

and going back to the, the idea of projection and transference, although I didn't call it, that, but they could be picking somebody because the person they choose reminds them of the person who used to have the job who was really good, because they, look similar, or they've got a similar background, or they went to the same university, or, so they're not necessarily picking on, the best criteria. Anyway,

Richard 20:10

That's right, but they think they are.

Fiona 20:12

of

Richard 20:13

they genuinely think they are. Because we confabulate. We lie to ourselves. We go, yeah, I know exactly why I gave them the job or exactly why I did what I did or said what I said. Because nobody likes to think that they're not in control of their life and their decisions. But actually, consciously, you're probably not in control of the things that you do.

Fiona 20:34

No, and isn't it, isn't it lovely how people say, well, I have to just go with my gut. What's,

Richard 20:40

is fine if you can trust

Fiona 20:42

yes, but how do you know? Because if it's, if it's not, you know, ticking these boxes on a piece of paper, And you're trusting your gut. I mean, we do all have gut feelings and

Richard 20:57

Yeah.

Fiona 20:58

I was going to say they're right more often than they're wrong. Who knows? I don't know.

Richard 21:02

Our world is, well, my world is quite filtered because as a therapist, you know, my world is surrounded with people who are full of anxiety. And they can't trust their gut. Because their instincts, because what we mean by gut instinct is a feeling in our stomach. A feeling in our body. Yep, that's the fight or flight response. That's adrenaline. That's cortisol. That's a spike in your heart rate. That's nervousness. That's the, your, your body pulling blood out of your stomach and pushing it into the muscles for fight or flight. So there's a funny feeling in my tummy that I, something bad's about to happen. I don't like this. Maybe it's because something good is going to happen. And you can like this. And I know that there are red flags. People talk about, I've got a funny feeling about it, funny feeling about him, funny feeling about them, can't trust them. Maybe You can. I mean, if there are lots and lots of actual many red flags that go, no, clearly, he's just stolen your handbag, then fine.

Fiona 22:02

Yes, I mean, yeah, if your red flag, say somebody went on a date, if their red flag was just, ooh, my gut's saying this isn't right, then that would be something to look at. you, need to be looking for the real, actual signs.

Richard 22:19

We need, logic. we need the consciousness to step in and go, hey unconscious, thank you for protecting me. What's really going on? What's really going on? We need the data.

Fiona 22:31

So the two sides can then have a conversation. Just as in the exercise with Howard and Hilda, or the devil and the angel, the one that's saying, is this person, A good idea? Is this person not a good idea? And to balance that out and see, what wins, they can have conversations.

Richard 22:49

Yes.

Fiona 22:51

And there could be different parts of the same person could be having those conversations as well. You know, there's a part of me that thinks that this decision is, is the right one. And there's a part of me that thinks that that decision is the right one.

Richard 23:03

Hmm.

Fiona 23:04

Have a conversation. Put them in two chairs.

Richard 23:07

Yeah. Genuinely, pull those two parts of you. I say pull them out of you. pull them out. That's not quite how it is. But, you know, maybe you close your eyes imagine two parts. Yeah. And they're sitting on a chair. See what they look like in your imagination, these two parts. Are they little versions of you? Big versions of you? Dominant versions of you? Scared versions of you? Are they other people? Is it a devil and an angel? Is it your mum and dad, you know? Is it a school bully? Whatever.

Fiona 23:37

I did this with a client once and I can't remember what the second part was, but one part was a cabbage.

Richard 23:43

That's

Fiona 23:44

unusual. Not had No. I can't remember what the second one was. I was so dominated by the thought of a cabbage having I'd Yes, exactly. but it worked for him. so, Yes, what does it look like, feel like, sound like, and, again, often people will say, well, nothing, but sometimes it can get to something, and then, yeah, put them into two chairs, if you've got two chairs in your lounge, or wherever. have one in one, one in the other, and move between them, and talk

Richard 24:17

Yes, we do that in therapy. Ask people to sit in a different chair and play the role of that voice or that person.

Fiona 24:25

Yeah,

Richard 24:26

Look at things from their perspective. What are they trying to say? And so often, it is, I just want the best for you. I just want to keep you safe. I just want you to be happy.

Fiona 24:41

Too risky, better not.

Richard 24:43

yes, better not, better not. And then we don't take any risks at all if we're not careful. And then we don't get practiced at taking risks, which means we don't gain the resilience from taking a risk and getting disappointed. Obviously these things are context dependent. I don't know what's going on for you, dear listener. And maybe there's nothing going on and this is just a bit of psychoeducation to help you understand somebody else. Oh, I think all this is so invaluable for everybody and yet we're not taught this in school. We have to find it on a podcast. It's so unfair.

Fiona 25:19

Yes, and if you think about children being brought up, they are going to be told by their significant role models, something about where they should be on a risk scale. So if I think about my parenting, my parents were really risk averse. especially my mother, I mean, the idea of jumping off a cliff would, I mean, I'm bad, but she's terrible. I mean, I had kittens when my boys were jumping off cliffs on holidays into rivers and things like that. but, I mean, I just wouldn't have been allowed to do it, because she wouldn't have allowed it to happen.

Richard 26:01

I, remember a few years ago now, I bought Dawn for, I think it was a birthday, a skydiving. experience. And she'd never done anything like that in her life. I don't know what made me do it. I think maybe just to give her a bit of a nudge. Let's take some risks. You can do this. You can do this because it would not be her thing. And she had a week's notice, which was which she needed.

Fiona 26:30

God, I'm feeling this.

Richard 26:31

Yeah, but she did it. And she's a bit of a control freak. My wife, bless her. And she really struggled with the idea that I've got to trust somebody who's strapped to my back to keep me alive. But she challenged it, and she did. And she landed, and ran over to us and gave Billy a big hug. And I said, so, what was it like? Because I'd never done anything like that either. And she went, oh it was fantastic, I want to do it again. Oh, you want to do it again? And then we did. In 2019, a few years after. We did it, we did, all three of us did it, because Billy was old enough by that point to be able to do it. It was in Australia and he could be 16. In the UK you had to be 18, but in Australia it's 16. So he was able to do it. But Dawn had to go first. She had to get thrown out of the aeroplane first. She couldn't watch Billy go.

Fiona 27:17

Oh, no.

Richard 27:19

It was, apparently it's okay for me.

Fiona 27:21

Oh, well,

Richard 27:22

fall out of the sky in front of me.

Fiona 27:24

No, your child's always going to matter more.

Richard 27:30

Well, yeah, that's fair.

Fiona 27:31

This is how it's supposed to be.

Richard 27:33

Yes.

Fiona 27:35

Gosh.

Richard 27:36

yeah, I'd do it again. Absolutely. It was fantastic. It was really enjoyable. I want to do it again now. So you've not done anything like that? Not quite like that?

Fiona 27:50

No, I mean, I think I've done brave things in my life, but not anything specific that I could quote to you like that no. Because,

Richard 28:00

You don't need to.

Fiona 28:01

who, no, who knows about the, the nature versus nurture thing? it's, it's, obviously it's always difficult to pull apart.

Richard 28:10

Yeah, because one thing feeds the other.

Fiona 28:12

Yeah.

Richard 28:13

If you're genetically predisposed to being risk averse, then you're going to be shown by whoever in your family has that gene. To be risk averse. So you're going to see it through behaviour as well as in your genes. Fighting against that is hard. You have to step in consciously and go, What do I really want? Well I want to feel the fear and do it anyway. Okay. Then take the plunge for whatever it is. But listen to that inner voice that says, But it's dangerous, but it's dangerous, but it's dangerous. And thank it for looking

Fiona 28:47

for, for myself, I think I've done that on psychological things, work things, I've felt the fear and done it anyway, physical things, not so much, but I don't particularly feel I've missed out and it's not too late. I could jump out of a plane tomorrow. Well, probably not. tomorrow, but,

Richard 29:06

Nah, it's a bit windy.

Fiona 29:07

in a week's time,

Richard 29:09

Yeah,

Fiona 29:10

I could do. What about bungee jumping, have you done that?

Richard 29:13

I haven't, no. I quite fancy that.

Fiona 29:16

thing with the jumping out of the plane when you've got somebody strapped to your back is you've got somebody strapped to your back and they're in charge whereas if you're bungee jumping you're on your own.

Richard 29:27

It's just you and an elastic cord.

Fiona 29:29

I did do a parasending once. that

Richard 29:32

if you could do that.

Fiona 29:34

slightly scary. Yeah,

Richard 29:37

Anything that has the potential to cause you discomfort is scary, and that's okay. It's putting your trust in the decision making process, in your consciousness, to say, But I will only make decisions that keep me safe. They might be risky, but I will still be safe.

Fiona 30:01

yes, I mean, if you jump out of a plane, and you're taking all the decisions and making sure that your parachute is correct and that you know what to do, that's one thing. If you're putting it in somebody else's hands, that's another thing. because you're not going to be okay if you get it wrong.

Richard 30:17

Hmm

Fiona 30:18

Whereas if you're making a decision about whether to go on a date or if you're making a decision as to whether to apply for a job or change career, these things are also risky, but, it's going to be all right. So it's a different, different type of risk,

Richard 30:37

mm.

Fiona 30:38

but does the unconscious mind know that it's a different type of risk? I think perhaps not sometimes,

Richard 30:43

No, our unconscious is very black or white, very dichotomous, this or that, good or bad, safe or dangerous, and just wants us to be safe, even if it makes us miserable, unfortunately. So it absolutely needs challenging. So I encourage everybody to go and do that. So, unless there's anything else you want to add on to today's episode, Fiona, we haven't had many tangents today, I think we've done quite well.

Fiona 31:10

but yes, we've kept fairly to the point. Not totally. I think totally would not happen.

Richard 31:18

Oh, I wouldn't be

Fiona 31:19

Wouldn't

Richard 31:20

a

Fiona 31:20

us,

Richard 31:20

dull. It'll be a lecture, I'm not going to be doing

Fiona 31:24

we're not doing lectures No,

Richard 31:26

Oh, no, no,

Fiona 31:27

no, no,

Richard 31:28

no. No. Right then. as always, like I so often say, if you want to get in touch with us, there are a million trillion ways that you could do that. Slight exaggeration. There's probably about four.

Fiona 31:41

But there's enough. There's easy ways

Richard 31:43

Yes, very much. Yeah, you don't need to send things on a carrier pigeon. You can just send us an email through a webpage or you can send us a note via WhatsApp or you can poke on social media in some way, shape or form. Get in touch if you've got a question and we'll include them in these episodes. It's always lovely to hear from people. If you need anything, let us know, and if not, sit back and relax and we'll see you next week. Take care everybody.

Fiona 32:09

Bye bye