Pros And Cons

This week, Richard and Fiona discuss the complexities of making big decisions, and explore how to weigh pros and cons effectively to find clarity.

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Transcript

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Richard 0:39

Good day, everybody. It's time for another episode of Richard and Fiona's Therapy Natters. Thanks for listening, hope you're enjoying the show. Hope you're having a lovely day. And if not, well, let's see if we can lighten the mood a little bit and help you have a lovelier tomorrow. Hi there, Fiona. Are you having a lovely day?

Fiona 1:00

It's nice and sunny. That always helps, doesn't it

Richard 1:04

It does.

Fiona 1:05

chilly, but

Richard 1:06

Yes, at time of recording we've had some cold nights.

Fiona 1:10

Yes, we have.

Richard 1:12

Some lovely, bright, beautiful

Fiona 1:13

snow the other morning, which was a bit of a surprise. Yeah.

Richard 1:19

to blow over. You got some,

Fiona 1:21

Yes, Yes,

Richard 1:22

We live in the weirdest of, countries.

Fiona 1:24

usual sort of just wander fairly aimlessly into the kitchen in the morning, look out of the window and go, Oh!

Richard 1:29

Isn't it nice though,

Fiona 1:30

Oh yes, it was lovely. Yeah, it was a nice surprise.

Richard 1:34

Yeah.

Fiona 1:35

Yeah.

Richard 1:35

it doesn't happen very often, so when it does, it's a nice change. It's a variety. And as long as it's not too inconvenient, you can embrace it. Oh yeah, it's great.

Fiona 1:47

I like changes in weather. If it's really, really pouring with rain, as long as I don't have to be out in it. I love it. If it's cold and I can be snuggly, it's great. But I do like the sunshine, as well. Although, the really hot, it's harder to get out of, isn't it?

Richard 2:04

Oh, that's true. Yes. When it comes to the cold or the wet, you can put extra layers on, stick an umbrella up, and you can still go out. There's only so much you can take off before you get arrested.

Fiona 2:17

And it if you're inside, it doesn't help. If you've got a baking hot house, home, whatever it is,

Richard 2:26

well, we live in a country where these houses have been designed to keep warm. So these last few summers that we've had, it started,

Fiona 2:34

Not last year, we didn't have anything last year,

Richard 2:37

Oh, it was a bit rubbish last year, wasn't it? yeah,

Fiona 2:38

yeah, but a couple before, yeah.

Richard 2:41

ridiculous. 2020, it started, summer started in the first lockdown in March. It was nuts.

Fiona 2:49

That felt like the universe was helping us, giving us some, some nice weather to compensate.

Richard 2:56

Yes, it did feel that way, because our world is the UK, and that is the world to us, because we look out of the window and go, well, this is the world, so the world is The universe is providing a bit of nice weather for us, because that's just our viewpoint. But of course, a couple of hundred miles in another direction, it's completely different, probably.

Fiona 3:18

we're all, self centric, because you have to be.

Richard 3:22

Yeah, its easy to have a belief and stick to that belief because it makes life easier and means I don't have to think. Actually, it's quite good to think. It's good to be open minded. We need to think more. Unfortunately, the more that we have to think, the more energy that takes. I remember a teacher saying to me once, she'd been a teacher and then became a therapist. And she said she'd got this theory about stress being related to how many decisions you have to make in a day. That's one of the reasons why teaching can be quite stressful. It's not just the pressure of performance and the worry that can come from being a teacher, but also you've got to think about so many people. Do I need to open that window? Do I need to give that child some support? Do I need to speak to that person? Do I need to email that parent? Do I need to do this? Do I need to Lots of Do I need to do that? Yes or no? Lots of these decisions throughout the day and the more of them, eventually, it gets to five o'clock in the afternoon and that's it, I'm done.

Fiona 4:18

But some people thrive on that sort of stress. They would say it was a eustress, having to make decisions.

Richard 4:24

rather than a distress.

Fiona 4:26

Yeah, rather than a distress and they would be more distressed by not having to do things like that. They'd find life boring So, it's horses for courses really, isn't it? So person needs to find what's right for them. And it doesn't have to always be the same. You can go through phases, if you're somebody somewhere sort of in between, and you have a job that's like that, then maybe make sure that your leisure time isn't

Richard 4:54

ooh, that's a good idea. Yes, don't make the situation worse. Yes, if you know where you're

Fiona 5:01

boundaries. yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so, so, be the decision maker in that place, and at home, leave it all to your other half.

Richard 5:11

Some things are joint decisions though. You've got to make these decisions together. And This ties in a little bit to, uh, a question that we had sent in. It was an email that came in from a lady called Bethan who says she lives just on the outskirts of Sheffield in the UK. I know Sheffield. I have a sister who lives in Sheffield. It's very nice there. And there was a few things that she went into, but biggest theme of the message was that she's currently renting a house. and has to make a decision on whether it's the right time to start to get on the property ladder. Her dad is against the idea, says renting his money down the drain. Her mum thinks it's a good idea to carry on renting rather than buying because of the responsibilities that can come from home ownership that could be more financial and more stressful. How do we make a decision as big as this? Do I buy a house? Do I carry on renting? How do people navigate this? What do you think Fiona?

Fiona 6:06

Well, actually, I think it does tie into what we were just saying about the mother's position of the responsibility. Some people would find that it's a lot of responsibility, you know, if the roof leaks, they've got to fix it. It's just a simple little idea, but there's lots of that in terms of properties. Some people would find that that was a burden and that they might not want to be taking on that burden. I don't know if Bethan is a single person or if she has a partner. If you've got a partner, maybe sharing those sorts of responsibilities makes it a little bit easier. But I think generally speaking, when you've got a decision to make and you've got people telling you what they think you should do, Then, this is stating the obvious of course, you need to be able to decide what you think and not what they think. And we have an exercise in Evolve to Thrive, which can help with doing that. Because it's about looking at the pros and cons, but not in a simplistic way. Because, from what you've just said there Richard, you've got the pro from the mother's point of view of, well, this is where pros and cons are a bit tricky because of the negatives. But her pro is not having the responsibility. So a con of buying is that you do have the responsibility. Is there anything specific about what the father has said as to why it's a good idea?

Richard 7:34

It's money down the drain. Renting is money down the drain.

Fiona 7:38

Historically, if you pay rent, it's gone. You don't get it back. If you're paying a mortgage, then that is helping you to own the thing that you own. But there have been times where we've had negative equity situation, where people have put their money in and then the place is worth less than it was when they bought it. So what we would suggest is to look at other pros and cons of your own to add in to what's going on there. So what could those be, Well, one con that immediately springs to mind is that her mother is likely to add into the con of, well, you're stuck there. Once you've bought somewhere, it's difficult to move, and you might not be able to sell it. you have to pay the mortgage every month. You've got no choice if you want to decide to travel around the world, it's going to be difficult. but of course, these things are counteractable, because there's always another side to it, but a pro might be that if you've got your own place, you can do with it what you want to do with it. I mean, I've, I've heard that from people who rent that they're not allowed to decorate.

Richard 8:47

even allowed to decorate.

Fiona 8:49

heard people, you know, they have to get permission to decorate. And

Richard 8:53

Okay.

Fiona 8:53

if you want a bit funky decoration, For example, you might want to have bright colours or something, you might not be allowed to. If it was a furnished place, you've got issues with that. You certainly might have issues around kitchens and bathrooms that you wouldn't be really in control of what you did with them. So that could be a pro to, to buying that you've got freedom. You might find that you could get somewhere in a place that's more convenient. but then that might be a pro to renting as well, that the rent might be. So, I don't know Sheffield well enough, to know what that would be. It probably would be a personal preference anyway. But the thing is to list out as many pros and cons that you can possibly think of, and then when you've got those, to look at the strength of that pro or con,

Richard 9:48

Right.

Fiona 9:49

the probability of it, and the impact that it might have.

Richard 9:54

So by the strength of that you mean the weight of it? The pain of it maybe? Or the joy of it? Whichever.

Fiona 10:02

Yeah, because some things can be really trivial. so when I was just saying about being able to decorate it how you like, some people might say well, yeah, that's a pro, but I don't really care. So,

Richard 10:15

there's not much weight to it. It's not a great.

Fiona 10:17

but for other people that would be huge. let's say that they were in a rental property where they weren't allowed pets and they wanted to adopt a family of six kittens, then that might be a pro to buying. And if they really, really wanted the kittens, that would be a strong pro. It could be that you really, really want to go and visit a place in the world. I won't specify one because this can change from moment to moment. But you really want to go and visit a place in the world. But if you go to the Foreign Office advice on GOV. UK, it says Do not go to this place. You could have a list as long as your arm of the pros as to why you want to go there.

Richard 11:02

Mmm

Fiona 11:03

And then it's got a con of the Foreign Office says don't. That shows the weight issue as being very significant. But you need to think about that, not just think, oh there's ten pros and only one con. Well if that one con

Richard 11:21

Is huge.

Fiona 11:22

is

Richard 11:23

If that one con results in life changing negative problems. it's quite common, and has been throughout my career anyway, and I've always put them straight on it politely. People will come to therapy sometimes wanting us to make their decisions for them. And as therapists, of course, we can't do that. We can help you create a mindset or some confidence to help you make decisions, but the decision is always up to the client. I'm not alone in that, because that happens quite a lot. Just tell me what to do, tell me what to do. I'm like, oh, I really can't. Of course I can't. I'd love a crystal ball, I'd love to be able to look through the multiverse and go, down that pathway you're happier than you are on that pathway. But in most, situations, and this is the strange thing, I don't know whether this is helpful or not, when it comes to making a decision, but We can be quite biased towards the decisions we make, and to protect ourselves from disappointment and regret, we can believe that it was the right thing to do. Because this is the world I'm in, and they'll say, I'm glad I made that decision. And we know that from these silly little experiments that have been done by asking people, The one that I'm remembering is one with images. You give somebody, some small thumbnail images and go, Out of these little images, which is the one that you'd prefer? And they go, Oh, that one. Yeah, I prefer that one. Okay. You come back a couple of days later with a bigger one for them to go on their wall in the dorm, because it's always university students where these experiments get undertaken with, of course. So, very specific demographic. But, they put it on the wall, and it's a completely different picture. And you go back to them another week later and go, Just following up on the decision you made about that picture, Can you tell me why you chose that picture? And then they'll say, these are the reasons why I prefer that picture over all the other ones. And we go, okay. Then you go back a day later and go, we've just noticed we gave you the wrong picture. This is the one that you said you wanted. Shall we swap it? And they go, no. Oh, this is the one I like. Well, it wasn't the one you liked two weeks ago, but it's the one you like now. And they've got all these reasons, and you can say, So the one that you, the original one that you chose, Was there anything, is there anything about that now when you look at it that you like, and they go, No. So actually, we try to protect ourselves from regret. With defence

Fiona 14:01

it, some people do it the other way around, don't they? Some people often feel that they've made the wrong decision.

Richard 14:08

And that could be a habit.

Fiona 14:09

It can be a habit, you know, the person who always has chosen the wrong thing in the restaurant. Oh, I wish I'd had that.

Richard 14:15

yes, Because they're not very good at gratitude, and living in the moment, and enjoying what they've got. and that is a skill.

Fiona 14:22

yes, I mean that was a trivial thing, but they can be almost a personality trait of, I wish I had done that at college instead of what I did do. I wish I had moved there instead of there. I wish I had got with that person rather than that person. It's the sort of grass is, the if only, it's the sort of grass was greener on the other side. And I should have gone to the greener side of the grass, back then. And it's, it's my fault for making these bad decisions that have left me to where I am

Richard 14:52

Well, this is, this is the danger of having too internal a locus of control. If it's too external, that everything is down to everybody else, and everybody else is ruining my life, that leads to a lot of resentment. There's a middle ground. Because if it's too far the other way, where everything is my fault, then that trait, that habit, Yeah, that leads to a lot of self esteem issues, because you're constantly blaming yourself for everything that's gone wrong in your life, even when nothing's wrong.

Fiona 15:20

Yeah, and going back to that idea of, you can't really know. Which is, you sort of, were going towards. We can use future pacing in therapy to help people to go to the future and see what it's going to be like. But in most situations, we don't know what's going to be best, if you're choosing between buying and renting. Well, we can't see the future. Nobody knows what it's going to actually be. But you can look vaguely, at some sort of probability level. So, we haven't got an age for Bethan, have

Richard 15:58

Bethan. She didn't say

Fiona 16:00

No?

Richard 16:01

No.

Fiona 16:01

just, let's just say for a second that she's 60 and her parents are in their 80s, 90s.

Richard 16:08

Yeah.

Fiona 16:09

So, she might say, well, I'm renting a one bedroom flat, but my son might have grandchildren in the future. With absolutely no reason to suppose that this is going to happen. So I've got to buy a house with three bedrooms so that they could come to stay. So you look at the probability of the pro and con happening. So going back to the holiday idea, let's just take the Foreign Office advice off the table, but there's been a terrorist attack in the place you're thinking of going. And you think, well, that's a con, but what is actually the chance of it happening again? And in the bit that you're going to at the time you're there, it might find that the, probability is much lower. Whereas other things might have a high probability, but it wouldn't make that much difference. Bethan might have an idea of, well, a con of buying a house is if my best friend Jessica was to move to Manchester, then I'm stuck here and she's in Manchester. That might have a, I don't know, 50 50 probability, something like that. But the impact doesn't necessarily have to be that high, because you could go and see each other. So, we're looking at how strong the pro and con is, how probable it is, and how impactful it would be. If it were to eventuate. So it's a sort of quite complex thing but to just sit down with a pen and paper and go through those, things can be really quite useful. It brings clarity.

Richard 17:56

Yes. And I think that's what people are looking for when they're trying to make a decision, is some clarity, some mental clarity to, to know better what am I deciding between? Because it's not just this or that, it's these and those. and this is mistake that people often make when they're looking at making a change in their life. They look at pros and cons, but they usually only look at the pros and cons of making the change, rather than the pros and cons of staying as they are. 'cause they're thinking about the change. What are the pros and cons of the change? Well, what are the pros and cons of staying as you are? You might not need to make any changes. What is it that you are looking for? How does all of that, on both sides of these things, how are all of these things gonna make you feel? I mean, I like change. I like variety. Not everybody does. I'll change my mind over things all the time. My wife, Dawn, tries to find that sweet spot between too little variety, which can be incredibly boring and frustrating for her, but too much variety which is overwhelming. There are no rules. You've got to work out what's right for you. And, yeah, we don't know. We don't know what's right for you, So it does take work.

Fiona 19:19

you don't know what's right for you either because if you did then you'd just be doing it.

Richard 19:24

Yes.

Fiona 19:25

That goes back to that thing of a choice is only a choice if there's pros and cons on either side. Because otherwise you just, you just do it.

Richard 19:33

Yeah. It's a no brainer. Yeah. And if that's not what it is because it is like choosing between renting and buying or well the things that come up in therapy what do people talk about? Well it's maybe ending relationships

Fiona 19:49

Should I stay or should I go?

Richard 19:51

Yes. Yeah, oh, I've got goosebumps remembering different clients that have said that sort of phrase over the years, because It's

Fiona 19:57

It's a very

Richard 19:58

place to be in.

Fiona 19:59

Very common one. Maybe a, maybe a lighter, lighter one to think about is, is the idea of should I ask this person out? Should I show so and so that I'm interested in them in a way that I haven't shown I'm interested in them before?

Richard 20:17

And because that's, that's going to have pros and cons. Because there is some weight, to well, this is a good friend. But if I admit some of my extra feelings that might freak them out and then I've lost a friend.

Fiona 20:31

So let's just say that, that sentence that you've just given you've got a con in there

Richard 20:37

Hmm.

Fiona 20:38

and its impact is quite great because you could lose that friend Well, but then i'm presuming from your tone that that friend sort of matters it might be it might not be somebody that Could be I don't know some friend of a friend or something where it it wouldn't so so that impact matters

Richard 21:01

Yeah.

Fiona 21:02

and then there's the probability, and of course that is one that's I was going to say it's hard to assess, but it might not be that hard to assess because people do do this, don't they? They ask people out when they know they've got no chance.

Richard 21:17

Yeah, Yeah. they do. Shoot the moon.

Fiona 21:21

Yeah,

Richard 21:22

Yeah, why not? And we should.

Fiona 21:25

This isn't a specific person coming into my mind, I promise, but I heard it from somebody about somebody, so it's very, distant, but who would just try it on with everybody, you know, sort of scattergun approach, with the hope that something would hit. Now that's, that's a bit,

Richard 21:45

I feel funny about that. I feel different about that now than I would have done when I was 18. And a bit more, yeah, I'm older now and a relationship means something different to me now. I'm more about emotional intimacy than physical intimacy. Because that's important to me. Wasn't that important when I was 18? I didn't need to be emotionally intimate. No, I don't even know, I don't even care if I forget your name, you know. Ugh. Teenagers. Am I making that up? Was that really me? Doesn't sound much like me, to be honest. No, I'm creating a character here.

Fiona 22:21

I think I was always into the emotional intimacy first,

Richard 22:26

Maybe that's a cultural thing between men and women. Rather than a nature thing about men and women, because people will go, Ah, but men are this and men are, that, and women are this and women are that, because of lower testosterone and things. culture plays a big part. And maybe things have changed a little bit over the last few years, but there are, there are big individual differences. I mean, for, for me, the, the, risk, the emotional risk of being rejected would have been great. So, I'd have to, I'd have to been really sure But, we do have to take some risks in life sometimes, and if we're particularly risk averse, then the adrenaline that that creates, the anxiety that that creates, can hold us back from living the life that we want to live.

Fiona 23:14

the pros and cons exercise can really help reveal where we are on that, how risk averse we might be because it could, it could come up that such and such is showing us to be really, a high probability when there's a part of the mind that thinks, well, no, it's not really high and it's thinking, but it would be a great impact. And it's then the other part of thinking, but no, it wouldn't actually have a high impact. So it can be really quite educational to the self

Richard 23:46

yes,

Fiona 23:46

to see where you are and just go back to thinking of Bethan and the other people's opinions. Other people's opinions are useful to calibrate where you are. But that's about it really.

Richard 24:03

yeah. yeah. As therapists, much to my wife's frustration, we tend to learn to sit on the fence about a lot of things. It's a comfortable place to sit sometimes, looking at both sides of

Fiona 24:15

I've got, I've, I like sitting on fences, very comfortable places to sit.

Richard 24:21

Yes. Because.

Fiona 24:23

You could see everything from there,

Richard 24:26

Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Nice metaphor.

Fiona 24:32

if you make it nice and comfortable, padded,

Richard 24:37

Yes, a nice padded to sit on rather than a recently creosoted one and you ruin your trousers. Absolutely, 100%. So I guess what we want to do is encourage people to sit on the fence, and have a look at both sides of things, before settling on something. And also, for many things, it's not permanent.

Fiona 24:58

And sometimes, the decision doesn't have to be now, it has to, you can take some time sitting there comfortably on your fence before you jump off one way or the other.

Richard 25:09

Yeah, I remember when a next door neighbour of mine emigrated to Australia, and it was a big thing. They've got two kids, who are young, um, primary school and preschool, I think, at the time. It's now or never. It's now or never. And it did kind of feel that way, that this is, if we're going to do it, this is probably the right time to do it. And they went through the pros and cons of staying, the pros and cons of going, and looked at, and did some future pacing, but what if we go there and we don't like it? Well, how long would you have to be there before you'd figure that out? And I think they settled on, maybe we'd try it for a year. And if after a year, we really don't like being away from them, from our friends and family. We really haven't settled in the environment. We just don't get on with the culture or the weather or something. We'll give it a year. That was in, crikey, that must have been 2007, 2007, I think. They're still there. We visited, I visited them when I went over in 2019 because we were going to be visiting some of my wife's family who lived in Perth. We knew that they were half an hour, 20 minutes down the road. So

Fiona 26:27

next, door in Australia.

Richard 26:30

and it was really nice to see them actually and it was It was such a, a, a joy to see that they'd made the right decision, that they really settled in, really settled in. And if it had been the wrong decision, and they'd known that, well this is the wrong decision. Well okay, we took a risk, didn't pay off. Well I'm very proud that I took that chance. And now I know, this is good information, good data, now I know. Absolutely. now you know. That happened with me and Dawn, actually. We bought, um, We bought a cottage because we thought this is the right sort of environment for us. It was very pretty. It was lovely. It's a lovely cottage. Um, very pretty, very quaint, middle of nowhere, rural little village. Because we thought that that's what we wanted. But after being there for six months, Dawn realised This isn't what I want. I, I, I don't like this actually, even though I'm quite short, these ceilings are quite low. 'cause the house was built in something like 1750 or 17. 17. Yeah. I think it was built in 1750s. It was an old, old cottage, quite low ceilings and no footpaths in the village for it to go for a run. And it's the middle of nowhere. So

Fiona 27:51

so looking at, looking at pros and cons, if you thought of that before, which obviously you didn't, but that's, that's, that's one of those things, you can't foresee everything. But if you had, that could have been, um, high probability, because it was. And strength, a strong one because it matters. And the impact, again, yeah, it happens. did lead to you moving.

Richard 28:17

Yeah, it was the wrong

Fiona 28:18

wasn't the only thing, I know, but

Richard 28:21

But, as we look at that, now, we've got the house that we want. But this house that we're in now, which is what we want, it wasn't for sale!

Fiona 28:30

I remember one that, yes, I remember one that I, the house I looked at that was absolutely perfect. This is a long time ago. With said husband. Only had one husband. but the, it was, it was perfect. But it was right next to a train track, which wouldn't have bothered us. But we had a cat. That was, that con was so strong.

Richard 28:53

Yeah,

Fiona 28:55

And probability, you know, let's not go any further. But we did not go any further with that house because, no, can't do that. Oh the things we've talked about today.

Richard 29:05

Oh I know, we've, we've, we've covered a lot, haven't we? Lots of different situations and scenarios.

Fiona 29:11

Bombs, trains.

Richard 29:14

And I started the episode by saying, let's see if we can give you a lovely tomorrow.

Fiona 29:18

Lighten things up, we said.

Richard 29:22

Well, if this encourages you to go on holiday and ask that person out, and find the house of your dreams, then, yeah, that helps create. Do it! Life's for living! We need to wrap up though, absolutely, and leave these lovely people to another week to themselves, away from us for a bit. You know where we are if you need anything. Obviously you've got our Evolve to Thrive program that we've been waffling on about now for so many weeks, because we've been talking about this for quite a while now, so if that's something you're interested in following up on these sorts of topics. Sign up for our Evolve to Thrive program. You might enjoy it. Or, not. Listen to what we put out there as it is and send us some messages. If you've got any questions, we'll see what we can do about weaving these things all into our episodes. Links to how to get in touch with us are all over the website, all in the show notes. Keep in touch. We'd love to hear from you. So, have a lovely week. Speak to you next time.

Fiona 30:20

See you next time. Bye bye.