Unveiling the Art of Anxiety Management: Insights from Brian's Journey

Ever felt your heart race, hands shake and a sense of shame wash over you during an anxiety attack? Our guest, Brian, bravely takes us through his personal journey, beginning with his first encounter with a panic attack on a date at 17. Brian's story underscores the importance of sharing personal experiences and having an open discourse about mental health.

As we journey further, we’ll discover how we can identify our own anxiety triggers and take control of these situations. From a holistic approach to life, to the transformative power of mantras and the practice of mindfulness, Brian offers an abundance of strategies to fit diverse individual needs. We'll also discuss the significant role of relaxation techniques and how something as simple as sipping chamomile tea can be a game changer.

But, it’s not an easy or quick fix. Brian emphasizes realistic expectations when dealing with anxiety and depression. He reminds us that healing is a process, and it's okay if it doesn't happen overnight. So, join us for a conversation that's as compassionate as it is enlightening, filled with personal experiences, practical insights, and a strong message of hope for those grappling with mental health struggles. Let’s foster understanding, inspire change, and shatter the stigma surrounding mental health, one chat at a time.


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https://www.amazon.com/Get-Out-Your-Head-Vol-ebook/dp/B09KQ4FLBW?nodl=1&dplnkId=f1c2c67c-4357-4904-8ae8-aaf960040bcd

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:42

Welcome my lovely Spoonie sisters. It's your host, gracefully, jen, and I'm here with I am perfectly Lenean. And we've got Brumneth on the show today. Hi Brian, how are you?

Speaker 3: 0:56

I'm doing. Great thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:58

Thank you for joining and I'm so excited. You know you're a fellow Spoonie brother. You're an author of a book series Get out of your head focusing on mental health. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Speaker 3: 1:11

Yeah for sure. So I'm somebody who has dealt with anxiety and depression throughout most of my life. I've gotten better with it over the last 10 years and that was, you know sort of why I wanted to start the work that I do, write the books that I write, and then also, you know, I do some blogging and some podcasting. So it was like basically going through the process of dealing with both of those conditions and making progress with them, making strides with them.

Speaker 3: 1:33

I think when you deal with mental illness right, it can be so all consuming and so overpowering at times that when you do finally have that breakthrough, it is like it's like man, night and day, right. And so for me, when I had some of those breakthroughs, the first thing that I thought of was I was like I really would like to turn around and give some of this information to other people who are struggling and who are suffering, because you know it can be really like the ride of a lifetime and not always in the best way. So, yeah, the work I do in this space is just trying to help fellow sufferers right with anxiety, with depression and some of the things that go alongside both of those conditions.

Speaker 1: 2:10

So when did your journey first begin?

Speaker 3: 2:12

I would say probably at the age of 17. That was when the anxiety really reared its ugly head and I would say I had my first panic attack. I didn't really know what that was at the time, right, it was like I'm on a date with a woman that I was interested in. I guess I would say, girl, you were kids, right. And I got really, really nervous and that's the only way I knew how to describe that. I was just like I'm in this moment, I'm so nervous. I asked this girl like you know how things are going between us? I just totally freaked out and my heart was running through my chest and I couldn't think, I could hardly breathe and I'm thinking to myself, I'm like what the heck is going on, right. And eventually I kind of got through that situation.

Speaker 3: 2:52

I'm not saying it was a good situation or an easy one, but I stick back and I was like kind of need to figure out what that was, because until I do, I'm not sure when it's going to pop up again, I'm not sure even. Really, again, I don't know what it was. So it's like I don't, even if you don't know what you're dealing with, you can't deal with it, right? So that was where, you know, I really that journey began, so to speak. Then, over the next what I would say seven, eight years, I struggled with anxiety and then I struggled with depression a lot, and throughout those struggles like I tried my best to learn things along the way right and sort of synthesize information from various sources, whether it was books or journal articles, going to a psychiatrist's office and basically distilling down different ideas and saying to myself these tactics work for me, these ones do not. The ones that work are the ones that I want to lean into a little bit more and build into my repertoire.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Wow, okay. So going back to the age of 17,. I mean, we're already nervous, right? And now, here you are, having a full blown panic attack. What would you say was the worst symptom you had out of all of them?

Speaker 3: 3:58

In that moment, or in general, in that moment, yeah, yeah, so it's a combination, right. I think the hardest thing for me was the fact that my heart was racing so hard that it felt as though my entire body was shaking. And I'm on a date with this girl. We're sitting next to each other, right, and she, at one point, it turns to me and is like dude, what is wrong with you? And I'm just like I have no, I really have no idea. Like I know I'm nervous, but that's it, that's all I know.

Speaker 3: 4:27

And it was in a situation where I had seen her a few times, a few things were going okay, but she was acting a little bit distant and I was just curious. So I was a 17 year old guy who, you know, some 17 year old guys, including myself, will sort of, like you know, our relationships mean a lot to us, and I had invested at least a lot of emotional energy into this relationship. And I'm starting to see that it's not, it doesn't seem to be going where I want it to go, and so I'm about to like broach the subject of like hey, what's going on here? And that was where I sort of had this meltdown, and so I ended up asking her. I was like, hey, what's the deal with us, or whatever, but I was just so nervous that I think it came out the wrong way. And then the next thing, you know, she's like dude, like first of all, this is not working out in, second of all, what is wrong with you, you know, and it's not.

Speaker 3: 5:13

I'm not I don't recount this story to you know poorly of her. She was like totally cool about it and, like you know, in the grand scheme of things it wasn't that big of a deal. I think I'm lucky to be able to look back and say that. But at the same time, like going back to your question of what was the most difficult part, was like just so much shame and embarrassment, right, the fact that I'm sitting on this couch being like you know, you see all these movies about high school students and whatnot and they're cool and confident and collected and they're getting all the girls and whatnot, and I'm sitting there like I have no idea what I'm doing, like at all you know. And so to have somebody that I liked really call me out like this and sort of be off put by that and then basically sort of break up with me in that moment. It was just a lot of embarrassment, a lot of shame, if you ask me. You know specific physical symptom that was the worst was it was the heart racing.

Speaker 2: 6:03

So I have a question. So how did you approach your parents or what did you do to overcome that and learn to deal with situations like that.

Speaker 3: 6:17

Yeah, I mean it was a long time coming. To be honest, it wasn't like I. You know, she went home and I went upstairs and I was like hey, mom and dad, like how do I deal with?

Speaker 3: 6:25

this and, yeah, and my parents are amazing supportive people, but they aren't fictions, right so this was a new thing for them as well. So it was basically like as a 17 year old guy, I tried to hide all of these difficulties, right, and the fact that I dealt with more of them as my life went on and, eventually, like my mom is super perceptive and at one point she was like dude, like what's going on? You don't seem like yourself, you know. And at that point, right when, when, again going back to the fact that anxiety and depression can be these all consuming battles, where, like it was for me, and I was home one day and my mom picked up on it and she was like what's going on? And that was like kind of where it all came out. You know where, I just said, I kind of broke down and I was like I, I don't know what these things are, but I'm really struggling with them.

Speaker 2: 7:10

And you're very lucky that you had that support system, your age, because I know for myself, with anxiety, like it was hard to talk about. I didn't talk about it when you brought up 17,. I'm like, oh, that that one episode at school, oh, that probably was anxiety and not realizing, and from my, I mean from our generation, we didn't talk about it, that was not brought up, mental health was not just like it is now, and I feel like my anxiety actually I don't know about you, jen, my anxiety has actually got worse lately. So I was very excited when I heard about you wanting to be on the Spoonie sister podcast, because I'd love to hear your tip and how you deal with it now as an adult and what you would suggest to people like us that are dealing with it. But we just don't know what we're doing right or what we're doing wrong.

Speaker 3: 8:13

For sure, and I you definitely hit the nail on the head. I am so lucky. My mom is so supportive, such an amazing person to have in my life. I'm so lucky. But also, like you said right, there are generational differences, there are societal differences where you go back even 10 years ago, right, and nobody talked about this stuff, or very few people talked about this stuff. So, you know, part of the work that I do in this space is just having these conversations to grow, grow the general conversation to let people know not that they don't already know this or some folks don't already know this, just to let people know that having these kinds of feelings, having these kinds of struggles, is normal, it's okay, and that there are other people out there like them that can help, either support or, you know, help them in general or at the very least guide them towards something that will provide relief.

Speaker 1: 9:50

You know, and I for me, I've been struggling with this since I was 12 years old and, to go with what you're saying, Linnea, for me I feel like it just kind of adds some flows. I've had periods in my life where I'm doing pretty okay, and then I have periods in my life where it rears its ugly head. I definitely don't think, for me personally, that it's as bad as it was when I was younger, but it's definitely been special as of late. So what would be your, your top tips for somebody that is either finally wanting to deal with this or is just now discovering it's struggled with them?

Speaker 3: 10:26

For sure, and I am more than happy to actually give some tips. I think I struggled to answer the question a little bit, because there is so much that we could talk about, right, like I wrote a 200 page book about this subject, and I'm not trying to skirt around the question, it's just like where do we enter the answer first, right? So, I think, from a high level, here's, here's how we want to look at it, right, there are situations in which we are already anxious. We need coping strategies that allow ourselves to get out of those feelings right, sort of on demand, or at least a little bit quicker than we normally do. There are also situations in our lives, or I guess I would say like there are parts of our lifestyles that lend themselves to anxiety provoking situations more often. So, you know, we have to take a look, a holistic look, at our lives and say, all right, what are the things that are constantly making me anxious? Can I deal with those things in any fashion? You can't, then, obviously, like we just can't. We have to move on to more of the in the moment, tactical stuff. But I do think it's important that we cover that high level stuff right, because it's, like you know, if you were, if you have a job that is so stressful, every single day of the week, 50 weeks a year, I just don't see a world in which you're going to sustain through that forever. Right, you will reach a period of burnout, you will reach a breaking point where you're like something has to give, and then that may be the opportunity to shift into a different role, a different company, work for a different manager, where maybe things are a little bit less stress-provoking, right, but then also okay. So we go to that new job and there are always going to be things that make us anxious in any, you know, in any environment, any corporation, any situation.

Speaker 3: 12:07

So we also need to make sure that we build up our toolkit to say, when I find myself in one of those situations, what are some of the things that I can do to feel a little bit better. So you know, we had talked a little bit about this on the pre-show, which was essentially like mindfulness, right? So if we think about what mindfulness is, I sometimes start with the definition, which is the practice in which we bring our awareness to that which it is, that we're doing. So, like, break that down, right, and just say like, okay, so normally I eat dinner and I'm watching TV and I'm talking to somebody, or you know, I'm thinking about this problem at work, that sort of thing.

Speaker 3: 12:42

One of the issues with anxiety, right, is like, if we are not mindful and we are not present, we expose ourselves to the feelings that we know as anxiety. So what I mean by that is a lot of anxiety is brought on by us thinking about or worrying about things in the future, right, that's sort of the definition itself. So it's almost like you know people say why is mindfulness helpful with anxiety? Because it's like almost the opposite of anxiety, if you will.

Speaker 3: 13:07

Like I talk a lot about, you know, this concept in my first book, which is like get back into the present moment, and that is just another way to say be mindful, right. So it's like when you are doing the dishes, do the dishes. When you are cooking, cook. When you are working out, work out. There is something that you you know you want to resolve in your own life. If there is a problem that you want to, like, chew over, then make time 30 minutes on your calendar, say I'm going to chew this over for 30 minutes, but then when you are working out, just work out, don't chew on. Chew the problem over.

Speaker 3: 13:37

Right, and I think one of the main things right going back to the present piece is like all so much easier said than done. But at the same time, it's like we think about the mindfulness we think about bringing our awareness to what it is that we are doing, and more that we can catch ourselves in some of those negative thought loops to say like I'm doing that thing again, I'm ruminating again, I'm worrying again. We can then say, okay, what I know, what I need to do, is bring myself back into this moment. Right, I just need to say, all right, stop worrying about, you know, the job interview tomorrow, the first date tomorrow, how I'm going to pay my bills in a week. I know those things are important and I know that they're scary, but look, they're not here today, so let's just get back to cooking, to cleaning, whatever it is. It's kind of a high level tactic, but it's one that I like to start with.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Well, and I think that's a really good point, because there's so many triggers and if you're being mindful about things at hand, then you're not going to be falling into those triggers and letting them take control of your day.

Speaker 3: 14:39

For sure.

Speaker 3: 14:40

And you know one thing that I think is fascinating, right, I have a niece and a nephew and I just I watch them and I think about when we were kids, right, and I'm not saying that kids don't run into issues and have, you know, deal with anxiety, depression, anything like that but like I almost envy, right, being thinking about being in that state and like, when my nephew is playing mini hockey, he is playing mini hockey and he is not doing anything else, right, so we can learn it thing or two from them in the sense that, like, yes, we do have our problems and and you know it's on some level we sort of think that it's irresponsible to drop our problems.

Speaker 3: 15:13

But you get to a point in your life where you're like you know what, I'm going to give myself permission to 30 minutes and not worry about this thing, and the beautiful thing about that is on the other side of that 30 minutes, if you actually do it correctly, you will experience this shift where you're like you know what? I actually don't need to go back to chewing that over, because I did that for so long and it got me nowhere. And look where I am now. I'm in a much better place than I was previously.

Speaker 1: 15:39

Absolutely, I 100% agree with that. What would be the next step that you would take after working on the mindfulness?

Speaker 3: 15:45

Yeah for sure. So you know, it kind of leads me into like, I guess, a little bit of shame of self promotion. But so in my first book I talk about 10, 10 things that we can do. I call them the 10 steps to getting out of your head. There's just 10 simple tactics that we can enlist. You know, when we're already feeling fearful to walk some of that fear back.

Speaker 3: 16:03

So when I go on podcasts, sometimes I just like to jump through these and, like, hopefully, hit on a few different ones. So we talked about we already talked about what is currently. Well, let me give a brief disclaimer. I'm currently editing that book to do a re-release in the coming year. So right now the get back to the present moment step might be step number six, but in the future it will be step seven. So the numberings might be a little different. Sorry for that, but so let's talk about a couple other ones, right? So another one is. So step five recite the powerful mantra. So think about, like well, everything I talk about in this list and we'll get to some more of these tactics.

Speaker 3: 16:42

So much of the, so much of what lies behind these tactics is mindfulness, presence, cognitive behavioral therapy, getting back into the moment, right, shifting your focus. When it comes to anxiety, right, and I try not to say that anxiety is simple, because it's really difficult to deal with. Right, sometimes we can say that it is like the strategies are simple, but they're certainly not easy, right, it's like, okay, all we have to do is shift our focus. But shifting our focus is pretty hard. It's not like we have to, like you know, run to the store, buy a bunch of stuff, put it all together, ship it off to Japan, whatever, right, it's not complex, it's just hard.

Speaker 3: 17:19

So, going back to the mantra example, right, so, a mantra like I think most people will probably be familiar with the concept, but I like to just say that it's like a short, powerful phrase, right, everybody probably has a couple of these that they like. So for me, some of them are, like you know, everything is going to be all right If you get in your head. You're dead. Breath, focus, outcome, these different cheesy phrases, right, and the whole goal is that when you are not feeling like yourself, you want to just latch on to one of these phrases and sort of give your I guess sometimes people will call it like the monkey mind right, the mind that is reckless. You almost just want to give it like a baby rattle and be like here you go. Here's a little mantra over here. Think about this, focus on this, recite this and see if it helps you turn your mind away from some of your problems.

Speaker 1: 18:03

I love that and part of me is like, okay, can I take that and turn that into a song and just walk around and sing it all day? I was thinking the same thing.

Speaker 2: 18:11

I'm like I just want that in my head all the time, like I've never thought to do that, like I don't know why, because I tell myself I'm okay, I'm going to make it through it. But I never thought about just having a mantra where I just say it when the anxiety hits. Like I mean, I've had some crazy panic attacks in the last couple weeks and I think that is a tip that would help. You need a mantra, we need a mantra. We need one, brian. I like the brain dead, the in your head dead one.

Speaker 3: 18:47

Yeah, I borrow that one from Tony Robbins. He says it at live seminars. I like it.

Speaker 3: 18:53

If you get in your head you're dead. Right, it's like you know, your mind is not always your friend and if you're chewing things over, if you're stewing things over, you may tell yourself like I'm going to get to the bottom of this and I'm going to figure it out and whatnot, like when it comes to anxiety and when it comes to depression, that isn't a winning formula, right? So, going back to my brand, right, the brand is called Get Out of your Head, like that's the ethos of the brand is so much of the misery we create for ourselves or that we deal with, we create through our thoughts by thinking a little bit too much. Absolutely, I will say I'm sorry to hear that you know you've dealt with the panic attacks. That is not a fun place to be, I think you know. I do want to say that, like you know you had mentioned like, oh, you know, I wish I had a mantra, or I wish you know this sound like I wish I knew to do this.

Speaker 3: 19:37

I think we also have to give ourselves credit and I think you need to give yourself some credit, right, in understanding that, like, one of the difficulties with anxiety and one of the difficulties with panic attacks is those issues don't always correspond to our thoughts, right? So much of our thinking happens on a subconscious level, right? So it's almost like before we even totally realize it and sure, like we may be like, yeah, I'm chewing this thing over or whatever, but before we get to that moment of being like, oh crap, I'm totally doing that thing again, like our minds are just like running down the street, you know. So I think we do need to give ourselves some credit and understand that, like it's not always our fault and this is really hard to deal with At the same time. That's why the awareness piece, the mindfulness piece, the present piece, is so important and one of the things that I tell people.

Speaker 3: 20:26

And I guess also going back to the 10 steps that we were talking about a little bit, step one is brief and it's really simple and obviously like it's like you know, somebody saw you freaking out and you were like, hey, man, you just got to breathe.

Speaker 3: 20:39

They're like, you know, you almost be like I get it.

Speaker 3: 20:43

Like stop, you know, stop being like don't be a jerk or don't you know, don't be flippant or whatever, right, but if we look past sort of the obviousness of it and we look at, like what's going on inside our bodies, right, it's like when we are scared and we are revved up, what often happens is our fight or flight nervous system has engaged and basically shuts off like critical thinking parts of our brains and we go into sort of, like you know, the reptilian mind or the emotional mind, and so, till we reactivate a prefrontal cortex where, like you know, logic comes back into play and we move out of the emotions a little bit, it becomes very hard to escape that sort of subconscious thinking.

Speaker 3: 21:23

And so when I tell folks to breathe, what I'm telling them to do is like so basically, when you get a full inhale and then a full exhale, you basically like turn off fight or flight system a little bit or you sort of instruct it to start calming down and you bring what is the opposite of that which is called your parasympathetic nervous system, aka the, the resident digest system, to come back online. When that comes back online, not only do you feel a little bit better and your body kind of comes down a little bit, but also you have a little bit more of that ability to think. And it's not the thinking piece the importance of the thinking piece is not so that you can go back into your head, so that you can say to yourself oh, I'm doing that thing again. Now, what I need to do is, instead of ruminating again, I need to pull out my 10 steps or my trusty steps and say, okay, number two is X, number three is Y, and we're going through these things until we feel better.

Speaker 1: 22:20

Well, I'm glad that you touched on breathing, because so many times when you're in the moment and you're having a severe panic attack or even just anxiety in general, what do we do? We tend to hold our breath and that's just gonna make the entire situation so much worse.

Speaker 2: 22:36

So I am very guilty of that holding my breath.

Speaker 1: 22:41

I think we're all guilty as charged. It's hard not to. You don't even realize it. So I'm looking at your website and one thing I really want to make sure we touch on before I forget is you offer coaching services. What does that look like?

Speaker 3: 22:56

Yeah, so you know I like to say it is not a replacement for therapy. It is not meant to like I don't tend to be a doctor. Coaching services are basically to take the information that I talk about in my works, right? So basically, we'll take the 10 steps, we'll apply them to the coaching client's life. We'll talk about some of the philosophical strategies, apply those to the person's life. Meant to be like a conversation, a tough love conversation between two friends, right? It's not meant to be like I'm not here to heal you or cure you. I'm here to help you sort of expose some of the things in your own life, or like allow you to draw some of the insights in your own life that then allow you to take some of the strategies, run with them and help yourself feel a little bit better.

Speaker 1: 23:42

So if someone's interested in signing up to do this with you, where would they start?

Speaker 3: 23:47

Sure, yeah. So on my website, right, you go to the coaching tab and then there's an email address there so you can shoot me an email. I usually get back to folks quickly. We do a quick intro session to see, like, so a free intro session to see you know if it makes sense, if the sort of the tactics that I talk about would work for the person who is curious about them. And also, like, obviously we have to talk about pricing and whatnot, right? So we have to have to have that discussion and then we see if all those things make sense. From there we could potentially move into, you know, more regular sessions. That is something that works for the person that is curious.

Speaker 1: 24:24

And while you're on the website, you can check out the blog, you can check out the book, and oh, there's merch too. Don't forget about that.

Speaker 3: 24:33

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if we'll have the video, but I do have a I haven't shared on right now.

Speaker 1: 24:37

I love it. I love it. You need to make a sticker.

Speaker 3: 24:41

I should make stickers, for sure. Yeah, I think in the future, when things slow down a little bit, I'd like to focus a little bit more on merchant branding and all that.

Speaker 2: 24:50

For now it's like yeah, I got something up on the website, so Well, if you need help with your stickers, Jen is the lady to go to. She knows who to order them from. She is like the sticker queen, oh wow.

Speaker 1: 25:05

I wouldn't go that far. I would not go that far, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:08

You're just not on your own, so you're pretty impressed.

Speaker 1: 25:12

Okay, so we've gone over some of your 10 simple tactics, and we've talked about breathing, we've talked about mindfulness. What else do you think would be important to share with us?

Speaker 3: 25:26

Yeah for sure. There's so many things that I think I could touch upon. We had talked again a little bit about some certain topics in pre-show, and one of those things was relaxation. So I think it's important to state the obvious, which is, in today's society, in today's world, things are stressful, right, and things are always moving. Our devices are always on. We are trained to be always on, depending on where you work. Right, you may take your messaging service home with you. Right, so you might take Slack or Skype or Microsoft Teams home with you in the form of like you've got the app on your phone in your pocket. If you're a school teacher, you may take exams and essays and projects, book reports home with you.

Speaker 3: 26:13

And so I think we all find ourselves, as we get older, right, like life can become really difficult and life can become really stressful, and so I was talking a little bit about previously of like sort of like the macro and the micro in the sense of like there are situations like maybe our jobs are constantly bringing us stress, but also we can look at each one of those stressful moments and say how do we help ourselves feel a little bit better in those situations? We're talking about relaxation. It's probably more, I'd say it's probably a little bit more of a micro sort of strategy in the sense that, like, if you are in a crazy stressful job, just engaging in relaxation techniques probably not going to be the be all end all solution. However, knowing that the world is pretty stressful and pretty crazy, I think it's important to take time out and to give ourselves the opportunity to relax, right? So I'm happy to talk about some of the things that I do to unwind, to relax a little bit, but I also want to make sure that, like, the two of you have an opportunity to say some of the things that help you relax and let listeners know that, like, this is a personalized subject, right? So, even though I may say I like, for example, drinking chamomile tea, like some people might not like that and that's totally cool. Like this is, this is not a one size fits all sort of solution. So you know, on the relaxation piece, right, I think that the high notes to talk about are essentially like, when you are relaxing, please make sure that you are actually relaxing, right? If you're on the couch but you have your phone in hand and you're like doom scrolling social media, that is not relaxing right.

Speaker 3: 27:45

So, for me, a couple of things that I like to do. I mentioned, you know, drinking chamomile tea. It's supposedly supposed to help you, you know, help your nervous system calm down, and I think it does that. At the very least, the ritual helps me calm down. I like to go for walks. I find that to be a practice that can help me clear my mind, get out of my head back into my body.

Speaker 3: 28:06

I have I guess I have it right here but I have one of these little Thera guns by this brand called TheraBody. They sell them on Amazon for, I mean, they're not cheap, but I want to say they're like 150 bucks and I will sometimes just sit on the couch and, you know, kind of like massage my arms, massage my legs. It's just like a way to de-stress a little bit and all that. So, again, high level point is when you are relaxing, actually relax, right. If you want to read a book, awesome, but like, don't read it on your computer where you have all these dings and notifications, emails and texts coming through, like, try to get a physical book. If you don't want a physical book, try to use like e-reader. That is like not connected to the internet. We need to give ourselves some space and some time to actually unwind.

Speaker 1: 28:49

Yes, and I'm going to admit right now I am guilty as charged I call it relaxing at night, but what am I doing? I'm actually content creating and designing graphs. That's not relaxed, that's just more work. I am just calling it something different because it makes me feel good, I guess, and so really, what I need to do is put down that phone, and if I want to design, maybe I need to draw or paint, but not this.

Speaker 2: 29:20

I would agree. I'm an e-reader, I want to read. I'll put down my phone, ipad. I don't do it on my iPad because all the dings you get. So I love to read. I love my sleepy time key at night, that is I didn't even think about it the way you describe drinking your chamomile, that it's relaxing, like it's actual part of my self care. I didn't even think of it being self care. I just thought of my sleepy time key going to help me find these things.

Speaker 3: 29:55

That's all right and I think one of the important things, right, I had listened to some of your episodes and the theme of the show, right, Like Spoonie sisters and basically saying, like you know, if folks who are listening deal with chronic illnesses, they only have so many spoons to use each day, right? And if you think about what some of these chronic illnesses are, a lot of the times we're thinking about like physical ailments, right, but mental ailments are also part of that equation. So it's like, if you're dealing with anxiety, if you're dealing with depression, these things have the intensity to claw away at you and to steal some of your energy from you. And so, you know, one of the reasons we're talking about all these things is we're trying to say how do we reclaim some of that energy through, you know, changing our thoughts, changing our behaviors, relaxing a little bit, giving ourselves the space that we need to feel a little bit better. Thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I've been a lot of fun thus far.

Speaker 3: 31:31

What was the thing that I was going to say? I might have to come back to it. I might have to come back to the thought that I had in my mind, I guess on the content creation piece, what I would say is let's say, you work a totally different job. You come home and you're like I love. Designing Makes me feel so good, it gives me energy. I don't see anything wrong with that in terms of like. Maybe we might not call it necessarily relaxing, but it is certainly like an empowering habit that you can go into to take some of that energy back. I think the caveat or the disclaimer, whatever that I would give in terms of I had said like no electronics and all that. If you absolutely need to use an electronic while you are engaging in whatever habit it is, try to go on. Maybe do not disturb mode or something like that, so that way you're not bombarded by these notifications. Try to make sure, going all the way back to the mindfulness piece, bring your awareness to what it is that you're doing. If you are being bombarded by text messages and emails and slacks and all that, it's really hard. It's hard to remember to be like I'm focusing on my designs because I like my designs and they make me feel good. All about being able to sink our focus into one thing, immerse ourselves in that thing and try to build some positive emotion from it. Very nice, we had talked about a couple other things pre-show that are worth touching on.

Speaker 3: 34:05

I think one thing that I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about it at some point is social support. It's like we are social creatures. We are meant to have relationships with other people, work together, be in communities. I think it's only recently that we have started to see people live by themselves I mean, I end up, I live by myself. Everything that I say here. I am not casting judgment. I am one of the people, just like one of the listeners here, who deals with these things, and I'm not trying to talk down to anybody. It's more just saying like, okay, here's the problem. The problem is that we are more and more isolated by the day. We are separated from each other, Although that has its benefits especially if you like to work a lot or you're introverted and you don't like being around people like that can be beneficial. Everybody still needs to have support system. Everybody still needs relationships. I think that, especially in the work from home era, which again has its benefits, we still need to remember to make sure that we're getting the social support that we need when you're dealing with anxiety, when you're dealing with depression.

Speaker 3: 35:09

I talked about how many years ago my mom was a really helpful ally and outlet in my own battle. I don't know where I would be if her and I didn't have that initial conversation. She was so fundamental to helping me get through some of those struggles. I remember when I was in college I was in a dark, dark place dealing with depression and she would drive like an hour away from because I went to school which was not in my hometown. She would drive like an hour from home, pick me up at school, take me to the psychiatrist office, bring me back. It was obviously crazy helpful to go to the psychiatrist office, but it was also like I just cannot express my gratitude enough to have somebody like that in your life, to have somebody who loves you and supports you and is like I will do anything for you. I kind of want to cry right now.

Speaker 3: 35:59

Getting back to the point at hand is just like we need that support. We need that bonding, that emotional connection. It's like I think it can be a great thing if just to be able to have that friend that you can grab a drink with or grab a sandwich with or whatever, and be like. This is what I'm going through right now. I just need you to be there for me, I just need you to support me.

Speaker 3: 36:20

Just having that conversation can be really cathartic and that can help us feel like it's almost like the weight falls off of our shoulders In this ever isolated world. I think we need to just again make space for those conversations, those relationships, Kind of the last piece on this subject. Not that there isn't so much more to talk about, but even though your friends love you and even though your family members love you it's like having a close relationship with somebody that you, where you talk about this stuff with, doesn't necessarily replace the role that a therapist or a doctor can have in this band. It's great to have those conversations, but also remember that you can see professional help and that could also be really beneficial in helping you heal.

Speaker 2: 37:02

I will definitely agree with you on the goal of the support system. I know for living with chronic illness, having that support, others that understand not only my disease, that I'm fighting, but they're just there to listen and they don't judge so important for people with even with just anxiety they don't have all the other chronic illness. With having that person to talk to in your life that you can turn to so important. I don't know how many times Jen and I FaceTime or call just because you need that support. You don't want to buy, you don't need the advice, you just need somebody to listen and say it's okay, remind you to take that deep breath and things are going to be okay. I think it's so important to have and then I'm so happy your mom. You had a mom like and just I had a parents like that and that's so important. So Bravo to your mother.

Speaker 3: 38:10

Thank you. Thank you for now. That's cool, no doubt. Yeah, we have covered a lot.

Speaker 3: 39:00

If I could inject one last subject, I think it would be another thing that we talked about pre-show, which was just the notion of realistic expectations, right. And so the question is basically like, you know, what expectations can a person have if they are dealing with anxiety, if they are dealing with depression? My answer and you will probably like lean this if you talk to me for long enough but like, I'm pretty like even keeled in the middle, moderate sort of thing, right. And so I approach everything with that mindset, which is basically to say, to answer this question, I want everybody to know that, like, finding healing is absolutely possible. At the same time, I don't want people to think that like they're going to wake up tomorrow and all their problems are going to be gone, right, because the other side of that is they're going to wake up tomorrow and they're going to be like, oh crap, I promised myself, or I told myself, that things were going to change and they haven't changed, and that can lead to worse feelings than you are maybe experiencing right now.

Speaker 3: 39:56

So I think it's important to approach this, you know, with sort of like an even keeled mindset and say like this is advice that I'm giving, but it's also advice that I truly believe right Is understand that can get better and you probably will. Probably not going to happen overnight, though I'm also on the other side of the coin, not trying to tell folks like this is a terrible battle and you know, you're stuck with it for life, because when you buy into that sort of narrative then you're in, you know, a place of learned helplessness, which is essentially like the condition for depression. And so, basically, just remembering that things can get better, they probably will. It might just take a little bit of time, but I know that you can get there. You put in the work, if you do the soul searching, if you talk to enough people and you really want it.

Speaker 3: 41:08

So, for sure, and I get stuck in my head too, and that's, you know, one of the reasons that I probably maybe the main reason that I wrote the book. So, yeah, we're human, right, we deal with these things, but we can definitely make progress and feel better in time.

Speaker 2: 41:42

Thank you.

Speaker 3: 41:45

It has definitely been a pleasure. You know, even those these things are tough to talk about because they're difficult subjects Like. It is fun for me to talk about this stuff because I care about it a lot and I really hope that people take things away that they can utilize. Awesome Thanks again.