Have you ever wondered how the air you breathe at home might be secretly affecting your health? Michael Rubino, the innovative mind behind Home Cleanse and author of "The Mold Medic," joins us to uncover the hidden dangers lurking in our indoor environments.
His insights follow the trail from his transformational experiences in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy to the personal battles that led him to champion the cause of clean air. Michael's crusade against indoor air pollution unfolds as we navigate through the entangled relationship between energy-efficient building practices, modern lifestyles, and the alarming rise in mold-related health issues.
As we continue our conversation with Michael, the plot thickens with the revelation of how climate change exacerbates these air quality challenges, creating a perilous cocktail of humidity, human pathogens, and household toxins that could be contributing to the surge in autoimmune diseases. His deep dive into the science of chronic inflammation and the body's autoimmune responses reveals an urgent need for a shift in how we approach our living spaces.
Michael's personal mission resonates throughout the episode, as he shares his evolution from a marketing graduate to an industry maverick, reshaping the landscape of mold remediation with his revolutionary cleaning protocols and shaking up the status quo.
In the crescendo of our discussion, we take a practical turn with Michael offering actionable strategies for homeowners and renters alike to take the reigns on their indoor air quality. Learn how his cutting-edge home testing kits can help to detect environmental dangers in living spaces, giving the power back to individuals to safeguard their health.
We wrap up with Michael's vision for a healthier world by 2030, cementing his commitment to empowering people through education and innovation. His upcoming book promises to be a beacon for those seeking to breathe easier, and through his story, we are reminded of the profound impact that taking control of our air can have on our overall well-being.
You can follow Michael on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/themichaelrubino/
Have you ever wondered how the air you breathe at home might be secretly affecting your health? Michael Rubino, the innovative mind behind Home Cleanse and author of "The Mold Medic," joins us to uncover the hidden dangers lurking in our indoor environments.
His insights follow the trail from his transformational experiences in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy to the personal battles that led him to champion the cause of clean air. Michael's crusade against indoor air pollution unfolds as we navigate through the entangled relationship between energy-efficient building practices, modern lifestyles, and the alarming rise in mold-related health issues.
As we continue our conversation with Michael, the plot thickens with the revelation of how climate change exacerbates these air quality challenges, creating a perilous cocktail of humidity, human pathogens, and household toxins that could be contributing to the surge in autoimmune diseases. His deep dive into the science of chronic inflammation and the body's autoimmune responses reveals an urgent need for a shift in how we approach our living spaces.
Michael's personal mission resonates throughout the episode, as he shares his evolution from a marketing graduate to an industry maverick, reshaping the landscape of mold remediation with his revolutionary cleaning protocols and shaking up the status quo.
In the crescendo of our discussion, we take a practical turn with Michael offering actionable strategies for homeowners and renters alike to take the reigns on their indoor air quality. Learn how his cutting-edge home testing kits can help to detect environmental dangers in living spaces, giving the power back to individuals to safeguard their health.
We wrap up with Michael's vision for a healthier world by 2030, cementing his commitment to empowering people through education and innovation. His upcoming book promises to be a beacon for those seeking to breathe easier, and through his story, we are reminded of the profound impact that taking control of our air can have on our overall well-being.
You can follow Michael on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/themichaelrubino/
Hello, hello. It's Nadine here, and I'm here with this week's episode of Life, health and the Universe, and this week I'm joined by my guest all the way from the US of A Michael Rubino. Welcome, michael.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:It's been a kind of like we've been playing around with our time zone so I have no idea what time it actually is with you right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're in the future.
Speaker 1:I'm in the future. How cool is that.
Speaker 2:It's 5pm, but a day earlier Okay cool.
Speaker 1:Well, let me tell you, today has been okay so far.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to see what tomorrow brings.
Speaker 1:Thank you for telling me that it's kind of weird that stuff isn't it All right?
Speaker 1:let me do a quick intro of you, michael. So you're the founder of Home Plans I'm reading off my notebook A company dedicated to addressing the worldwide health epidemic caused by poor air quality. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. So you have got a huge B-hag, a big, hairy, audacious goal. It is to improve the quality of life of 100 million people each year by 2030. That is some B-hag. Hats off to you.
Speaker 1:You're the author of the book the Mold Medic and you've been featured when you're getting your word out there on, so you've got some great accolades. You've been featured on Gwyneth Paltrow's podcast, the Goop podcast, vice TV, vogue, livestrong, to name a few, and now you're with us. So I'm super excited to find out all about you and what you've been doing and this massive mission you've got, because, as the podcast suggests, life, health and the universe we can kind of talk about everything, but health is so like a massive part of living, right, and there are so many layers, and when you guys contacted me to propose this call, it just reminds me of how many things and how many layers there are when it comes to being healthy. We might tick the exercise box. We might tick the eating well box, but there's so many things and this is one. So before we get stuck into talking about all of those things and before I ramble on any more, let me hand over to you. I'm just shutting the window.
Speaker 1:It's summer here and we've got cicadas. Do you get them where you are?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every once in a while.
Speaker 1:Really noisy. So, yeah, yeah, they were drowning me out. Okay, so that's my little intro. Welcome, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us. Tell us a little bit about all of the things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, thank you, and thank you for having me and for accepting this opportunity to have an amazing conversation today. But one thing I want to say before I even introduce myself here is you know, it just made me realize it is so much easier to be unhealthy than it is to be healthy. Huh.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:Totally. It's crazy. I got into what I'm doing today about 12 years ago now and I was my father's been a restoration contractor since I'm five years old mainly fire restoration, but fires get put out with water and water is earth life source. So we really see a lot of microbial activity in that industry. But I never really thought much of it. You know air quality it was. You know this elusive thing. I mean, air is invisible. What are you talking about? There's no quality to it.
Speaker 2:And that was until Hurricane Sandy happened in the Northeast of the United States. And you know tens of thousands of homes get decimated or water damage situations and all of a sudden people started complaining about their health. And that was really an eye opener for me because it was the first time I realized wait a second, so our homes can make us sick. What is this air quality? You know what's going on here and I realized, wow, our homes can actually be gigantic Petri dishes that we live inside.
Speaker 2:And when I started to dive into the science of this, looking at different medical reports, laboratory reports of people's homes, I saw a pretty stark correlation of how people are feeling, based upon what their home is telling us medically and scientifically through lab data, and that was when I started to go on this you know 12 year journey shouting from the rooftops. Hey, I think one of the biggest missing links here to this health piece is air quality and the amount of stuff that comes into contact with us on a daily basis. It's something to the effect of like 100 million particles enter the body every day through the air, which is crazy to think about, and some of the stuff that we breathe in, like our own dead hair and skin cells, aka dust not nearly not really as big of a problem.
Speaker 2:Our bodies are used to it. But when we start talking about extreme levels of mold and bacteria and VOCs and all the things that we have in our homes that we don't think about, that's when things start to really get problematic. And after helping thousands of people get better by just fixing their air quality, I mean it has been a remarkable ride.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, did you, were you Okay? Did you have any health issues yourself that you have kind of attributed to this or not? Really.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. So last year I literally had to go on this entire detox program myself, because you know, 10 years of going inside people's homes and doing the best you can to protect yourself, but it's nothing's perfect I started to notice that I was gaining weight for no reason. I'm still not where I should be weight wise, but I've lost 40 pounds this year, and so when I look at it from this perspective of why am I eating so healthy but gaining so much weight, like you know, to gain, to gain as much weight as I gain in a course of a year the year prior, which was about 50 or 60 pounds, you would think I was eating nothing but cheeseburgers and pizza, right. But no, I'm eating nothing but like cauliflower, rice and broccoli and, you know, six ounces of meat or fish, right. And so it's really interesting to see how I just started going in this direction.
Speaker 2:I was tired all the time. I had massive bags under my eyes, pretty much 24 seven. I would get eight hours of sleep, but not feel like I actually got any sleep, and so once I realized, wait a second, I'm probably dealing with this exposure to environmental toxins the way most of my clients do, from all of this built up exposure, I went ahead and did pretty much the same detox protocols most people do when they find themselves in that situation, and within 30 days everything changed. For me it was like a light switch, I would say. I started losing, you know, two, three pounds a week.
Speaker 2:Wow, I started feeling energized when I woke up. You know, a lot transformed for me that continues to improve today and, as a matter of fact, I think, probably at the top of 2024, because it's been about two years now since I did the detox I probably do for another one because, you know, I think many different variables exist but unfortunately, because I've subdued myself to so much environmental exposure over the years, my detox pathways and my body may not be detoxing as well as it used to Right, and so maybe it needs a little bit more support. But I'll tell you, the sauna, sweating in the sauna was probably one of the most life transforming things that I did on this program, because, you know, just, I think sweating this stuff out was it really made a massive difference and it made things go faster. So that is kind of my, you know health story in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That only further prove my theory of how important this really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, well, we're going to have a lot to talk about. So I live, I moved to, I'm on the East Coast of Australia. We moved four years ago to the Mid North Coast, which is very humid, rains a lot, and a lot of people here complain of mold and damp and, interestingly, when we lived in Sydney, there was certain we lived in an old Victorian house. This is my experience and I've kind of, you know, putting two and two together and I don't know that I've 100% determined that this is the cause, but I kind of think it is.
Speaker 1:When we lived in Sydney, we were in an old Victorian house and there was damp coming up from underneath, right, so some of the walls started to show signs of damp and at certain times of the year my eyes would get really red and puffy and, like you could even feel in the house it felt kind of what, like the air felt kind of moist, wet, and it always happened at the same time of year, right, that this puffiness, and it was obviously to do with the weather and the cold climate.
Speaker 1:And then, when we moved up here, the same things started to happen and even in the last couple of days we had some really hot days and it was really humid and I woke up in the morning and you mentioned the puffy eyes and I had really puffy eyes and one thing that I find helps it is hopping in the sauna and it's like I've and I'm kind of going I wonder whether it's because of the rain and the damp and the high humidity and like stuff in the in the air, and that's kind of like a small thing, but I've, I really noticed it. Yeah, and I think that because, like you say, you can't see it. You know you can see mold on ceilings and walls and whatnot, but you can't see the air and you don't know what you're breathing in and what impact it's having on your body.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I mean, what's interesting about mold too is, you know, a lot of people don't realize it's actually two different things. It's a living organism and then it also creates spores, which are kind of like seeds, right, which are not themselves alive, but those seeds is typically what enters our body when we're taking breaths, and those seeds are about two to four microns in size. So that's very, very, very small, about 25 to 50 times smaller than what the eye can actually see. So, essentially, when you're breathing, this stuff in is completely invisible, but yet you might see some stuff on the ceiling or on the wall, right. So it's, it's.
Speaker 2:It's always interesting because I think a lot of people get confused like well, how does that influence my health? How does that have the potential to make me sick? Same thing as bacteria, right. Like we know, bacteria exists. Yeah, we've, we've been taught we have to wash our hands, okay, but no one realizes that bacteria actually gets airborne and most of the bacteria that you come into contact with is actually being inhaled. So it's interesting, you know, to see, I think, how this relates to our homes in our health, because as long as we're not aware of it, we're not going to be taking action, we're not going to be taking steps to do something about it. Right, and I think that's one of the that's been.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest problems for me is, like you know, you talk to doctors and doctors, unless they're specialists and environmentally acquired illness, they have no clue. Right, and when we look at it from that perspective, if we're going to doctors and this happens to so many people, right, they go to doctors, they're looking for answers, they're not feeling well, you know they. Sometimes they get shifted around to 40, 50 different doctors. Finally, somebody says hey, have you ever thought of maybe checking your environment? And it's like boom, all of a sudden they test their environment, their environment's not good and as soon as they leave the environment, instantly they start feeling better.
Speaker 2:And that's been one of the most remarkable things to see. And it's like well, how do we not know more about this? You know, why is this such? This, this hidden, unknown thing and I think the reality of it is is because we're so focused on exercise and food and the quality of water that we drink. Right, we just we've always thought that, you know, as long as I'm exercising and I'm ingesting the right substances, I'm going to be healthy, and it's no one's looking at the air we breathe. And it's crazy because when you think about the air we breathe 20,000 breaths per day it is enough air that we consume on a daily basis to fill up a normal size swimming pool.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Now, when you put it in that perspective, you are definitely consuming more air than anything else, more air than food, more air than water, more air than supplements. And then thinking about how we can literally inhale 100 million particles a day. So that's crazy how much that can happen. And these particles that are smaller than 10 microns in size I mentioned the size of mold earlier. It's less than 10. The real health hazard there is that anything smaller than 10 microns can bypass our self-defense mechanisms and enter the bloodstream. So we get hit with a double whammy through air quality, because it can affect our lungs and then, if it passes into the bloodstream, now it's being ingested, so then it can affect our gut, which can then affect our brain, and so it's actually got a pretty severe risk. And I think that's why.
Speaker 2:What did we learn with COVID? Right, air transmission was the greatest route of exposure. It was the first time people really heard the word air transmission before, typically. So we're learning a lot as time goes on, but unfortunately I feel like we're not learning fast enough and there's too many people struggling out there across the globe, and I have consults with people all over the world and when people come to me and they're struggling. I'm a father, I'm a husband, I have two small little ones. I want to see people healthy and happy, not sick and depressed, and unfortunately there's so much of that these days that I just want to do the best that I can do to make the world a better place.
Speaker 1:That's a pretty cool mission. Ok, there was a whole bunch of things that I was having, these questions, bing bing, bing, bing. Where do I start? So you've talked about. No, I'm going to go back a step. Actually, why do you think it's becoming more prevalent? Is it because we are less healthy in general? Is there more exposure? Surely, mold has always been around, right, but there's that movie, the Fabulous Fungi or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Is it?
Speaker 1:Fabulous Fungi or.
Speaker 2:Fabulous Fungi so.
Speaker 1:They talk about mold, right, and they say that that is a type of mold and it's been around and it serves a purpose. It does, it does serve a purpose, so like is there more of it, or are we just more sensitive to it?
Speaker 2:So good question. There's certainly more of it, at least in North America, because the EPA and HUD have done studies. They did a pretty big study in 1994, another one in 2006, another one in 2019. And I'll tell you, from 1994 all the way to 2019, it's getting worse. It's getting more prevalent. So the building practices that we have been pushing for, which tie into energy efficiency, have been done in a way where we didn't think about the people living inside these spaces. Now, energy efficiency.
Speaker 2:So let's go back to 1970s. Richard Nixon is president of the United States. We're dealing with a global energy crisis. Okay, and it was a global energy crisis. So what did everybody do? Well, everybody said we have to figure out how to be more efficient with energy. This is pretty much a global recognition that we needed to change. So what did we do? Well, we made changes.
Speaker 2:Now, homes get built, and homes and buildings they get built tighter today than they did 20, 30 years ago. What does that do? Well, let me tell you the human being is going to exhale a lot of bacteria particles, a lot of virus particles. Why? Because, if you didn't know, this bacteria lives inside of you. So do viruses. It's not until your immune system is weakened, that something like a bacterial infection or a viral infection would then take over. Normally, your body has functions very well, living with all these different types of bacteria and viruses living inside of you at any given time. Now, when we are constantly breathing these things out and we have things like water damage that allow mold to grow, and we have all these toxins that we introduce into our house via household chemicals, modern friture formaldehyde, vocs.
Speaker 2:We're now in a situation where our body is getting bombarded with things that it has to consistently remove and the kicker is there is no air exchange that's allowing fresh air to come in. And we're talking third grade science class here, where air will dilute the amount of particles that would be present. So fresh air is going to dilute. So that means if we have fresh air, we're breathing in less particles because we're diluting the amount of particles in the air. Well, if you live in a bubble and you have all this stuff releasing into the bubble consistently, you're going to be breathing in more and more stuff inside that bubble. So then we have the modern HVAC system. Well, the modern HVAC system huge in the United States.
Speaker 1:What is that?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a lovely system that essentially takes air in conditions it then supplies it back out. Okay, the lovely air conditioning system.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
Speaker 2:So the biggest issue with air conditioning systems is they create condensation. They're designed to remove moisture from the air condition. It supply it back out and that's what gives us this beautiful, comfortable 70 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm not sure what the Celsius is, you'll have to forgive me for that 21.
Speaker 1:Perfect.
Speaker 2:That's the ideal temperature, right, and so, in hindsight, we didn't think about the filtration needs to prevent mold and bacteria from growing in them. And we've just gotten to this place where now we have all these particles present. None of us have good enough filters to block these tiny particles from getting to the unit, and then it just starts growing in the unit. And did I mention the buildings were tighter? So, as you can see, this is a perfect storm. Yeah, so there's more. It just bombard your body.
Speaker 1:If you're in buildings where there's lots of people compacted into apartments and stuff as well, I guess like there's going to be just more people producing more stuff. Does the, do the particles in the air reproduce as well? Like, do they become more? So not the particles themselves?
Speaker 2:But if you have organisms, they reproduce. So if one of these spores or seeds gets to a wet area and has the right resources to grow, that seed becomes an organism. So in an HVAC system you might have one seed that gets in there creates an organism. That organism reproduces more and more seeds, the organism colonizes and grows bigger and bigger and it's just reproducing tons of particles that we'd be breathing in. So that's kind of how this works.
Speaker 2:So a leak that happens in somebody's home, not a big deal at first, but if you don't fix that leak quickly and you allow it to continue to happen, it's going to be a living Petri dish inside your wall thereafter and it'll get. It will reproduce at that point. And that's how we start to see it. Unfortunately, buildings are not designed to last forever. They're not designed to keep water out forever. Nothing lasts forever, unfortunately, and so they're going to leak. Statistically speaking, it's like one every 10 years. So, unfortunately, if your house is built in 1980, let's say you've got, probably at this point, four major leaks that would have occurred and if they weren't fixed properly, they could still be impacting you 40 years later. And that's what we see all the time.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, what about? I just wrote something down somewhere. Does climate like are we seeing more rainfall? Is that contributing to it or not?
Speaker 2:really, Well, we certainly are seeing more frequency of storms and rainfall and all these things, and obviously it depends on the climate and where you're located. But yeah, I mean, we are seeing historic devastation, especially from the southeast through the northeast of the US. Every fall, we expect to see all these different hurricanes and they're getting more ferocious and worse, and even the smaller ones are creating more damage. So I think that definitely plays a part in it as well, but I think for me it's. We've got the perfect storm. We've gone so far in this direction of energy efficiency without putting countermeasures in place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:And then you have more rainfall and more storms, and then you've just got modern HVAC systems and how that influences that. And at the end of the day, our bodies can only handle so much. And that's when we start to see an increase in chronic disease and autoimmune disorders. And look, if we take out Google right now and ask how sick are we, you'll see, as a global population, we have never been sicker than we are today. We get increasingly sicker. Over 60% of the global population deals with at least one chronic condition. 40% of the global population multiple chronic conditions, meaning two or more. And how could that be if we are healthier and maybe healthier is the wrong word how could that be if we are trying?
Speaker 1:harder than ever before to be healthier.
Speaker 2:We've got pelotons and this and that in our home environments. We have workout equipment. We have never been fitter. We've got more availability to food than ever. We have everything's organic, even big, huge chain warehouse Costco stores. They have organic groceries. I mean you literally have better selections than you've ever had in your entire life to eat healthier. And I know we're trying, you know, I know we're trying. We have cleaner access to water. I know we're doing everything we can, but when everything we can isn't good enough, when is it time to wake up and say we're looking in the wrong direction?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or there are other things at play. Tell us about some of these. So we talk about autoimmune disease, right, and you say that it's on the rise, and can you tell us what? Some examples of autoimmune disease, what are they and what are some of the symptoms that people might?
Speaker 2:experience. Yeah, so there are a plethora of autoimmune diseases. Essentially, they're all each specific autoimmune disease, you know, like eczema is one.
Speaker 2:You can have eczema for a few days and that wouldn't be considered an autoimmune disease. But if you have chronic eczema, that would be an autoimmune disease, right? What's interesting about autoimmune diseases? There are many of them. The chronic fatigue syndrome can be considered another one, right? All of them are diseases which are not known what the cause is and there is no cure. So, essentially, when you develop an autoimmune disease, it typically develops due to chronic inflammation. You now are basically told by our medical system that this is your new life, you live with this and here's how you manage these symptoms.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know which? To me it's like why aren't we asking ourselves what causes this and diving into that? But you know, sometimes it's just the way things work. We don't know the answer, so we say you have to live with it. All of these diseases, pick anyone rheumatoid arthritis, sibo pick anyone and watch how they've all been increasing over time and we're not asking enough, ferociously enough, why that is. Now, when you look at the science behind autoimmune diseases, they pretty much all start in the same fashion. Something happens that triggers this and they believe it's genetics, genetic predispositions. They believe that it could be environmental, right, so that could be environmental. Breathing in it could be environmental what you're eating, diet, all of that kind of stuff. And that is pretty much what they've figured out of what could be the response to this. But it's an immune response. Your immune system is responding to something not well in your body.
Speaker 1:And with autoimmune Amarra, in saying that what happens with all of these kind of autoimmune disease is that our body starts attacking itself so we become unable to fight off infection or imbalances. Is that what happens?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that typically is what happens, because when you're dealing with chronic inflammation, your body naturally responds to that inflammation.
Speaker 1:And so it's kind of like an overreaction to an increased sensitivity to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one of the best symptoms to explain this whole response would be mass cell activation syndrome. So that is literally when your body is in a hyperactive state and you are fighting your own cells. Your white blood cells are fighting its own cells because it can't determine what is a foreign substance that should be fought and the own cells that contain inside the body. And what does this develop? Chronic inflammation, and I think that's you know. Obviously, there's different levels of chronic inflammation. It can be acute chronic inflammation or it can be extreme chronic inflammation. The all these avenues, all these roads, they point back to the same place it's chronic inflammation. What causes chronic inflammation? Well, certainly, breathing in things that are not good for your health could absolutely cause chronic inflammation. Right, we've seen that from chemicals, we've seen that from particles, we're seeing it from mold, we've seen it from bacteria. You know, and it's interesting to me is because if you actually start to piece the data together, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2:The problem is is that our medical communities across the world they're not, they're not looking in this direction. It's like we've all grown up in this civilization thinking how could we possibly ever get sick from the quality of air? I mean, look, everybody can Google right now air quality, health. You're going to see all kinds of news, news organizations BBC, new York Times, all very reputable organizations showing you different studies that exist on how air quality affects the health. The information's out there, but how many people know about it? And that's the problem, right? And it's not just people, it's doctors too, the healthcare professionals that we look up to when we're not feeling well. For them to find and give us answers like the investigators that we hope they are, but they're not, because they're not getting educated on this either, just like the rest of us.
Speaker 1:That's really the problem the last resort. Isn't it Digging deep enough to find this ultimate cause of illness? I read a book called Toxic, Neil Nathan.
Speaker 2:Neil Nathan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I apologize, I haven't read your book.
Speaker 2:That's okay, no problem at all.
Speaker 1:I guess, like what I'd just like to comment on is an example of someone who, like he, shares some stories of patients that he's had. So he talks about the toxicity, just as you do, and how exposure to things like mold can cause these terrible autoimmune diseases that people think that they are, like they are basically destined to live with right For the rest of their days. And there was, I recall there was this one woman I can't remember what autoimmune disease she had. She was quite a, you know, a high flying executive and she started to get brain fog and feel really fatigued and, like she literally got to a point where she could barely walk. Like this is what happens to people.
Speaker 1:And, just as you've mentioned, like she went, you know, obviously went to doctors, she had to give up her job, she was trying to find out what the cause was and eventually she found out that it was because of some kind of exposure to toxic. You know, I'm not sure if hers was mold, but it was definitely an autoimmune disease. That was then treated and she got back to normal, like from literally not being able to walk. This is how extreme these things can become and, like you said, it's like we just kind of blow it off like air quality, surely that wouldn't. It wouldn't be that bad. Or a little bit of mold in our house, surely it would. You know, just a little bit of wipe it off. Can't see it, it's not there kind of thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I think one of the biggest issues that I see is, unless it happens to you, you just don't think it's going to happen to you, and that that is definitely part of the problem, because a lot of this stuff could be prevented if you looked at it proactively. And, let's face it, you know if you start getting mold and bacteria problems, you're going to have to renovate your home. It's going to be expensive. So you're much better off looking into things now, making sure being aware of it now, making sure you're inspecting your roof and windows and all the points that water can intrude, and making sure your HVAC systems clean and properly maintained if you have one, because the alternative is getting sick and then still not believing you're sick because it's your house, going on this journey to circle right back full circle to realize it is your house and all the time and money spent in between that gets wasted.
Speaker 2:This is probably the average person. That I'm describing is the exact client story that I could share on almost every client, and it doesn't matter how rich they are or how poor they are or what their social status is. It happens to all of us. Why? Because what do we have in common? We live indoors and if we can just shorten that suffering cycle just a little bit, just give people the information in a clear and concise way so that they can understand, wow, I never thought about the quality of air that I breathe inside my house more than ever before.
Speaker 2:And listen, I know there are people listening that are probably very health conscious that might have some air purifiers plugged in around their house and that helps for sure. But let's go a step further. Let's look at our house. Let's look at the roof, let's look at the windows, let's test for mold, because if we find mold, we're going to find bacteria. They grow in the same locations, taking up the same amount of real estate from water, because they both need water to grow and survive. So when we start looking at these different culprits that affect our air quality inside our house, if we start to do things about it, I bet if one person from this podcast listening goes and finds something and fixes it, even if they feel 99% healthy, I bet you it makes a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So I'd love to pick your brains a little bit about some of those things that we can do to check what's going on in our own homes, but I'd also like to hear a bit more about like your. So you mentioned right at the beginning that you've, like we're here to talk about home cleanse, right? Which is the system, would we call it, that you have developed to help people who do find mold in their homes?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And to help them clean it up and purify their air. So you talked about going on this long journey of, you know, finding out what is actually going on. Then, from from all of that information that you've uncovered, how did you go about developing the system that you've got? Do you have a background as a scientist or like a, or was it just like?
Speaker 2:Well, no, I had to basically develop a background as a scientist. My background was in we're talking. I was in my mid twenties and I just got out of school and I was studying marketing. Okay, so I went from marketing to you know, let me work for my dad a little bit and show you know, show him some modernized marketing tactics to the holy, holy cow.
Speaker 2:We have a problem here with, with, with what's going on to then. I have to study microbiology, because I have to. In order for me to create it and develop a process, I have to understand what is happening from the microbiology world that's impacting the construction world. Okay, in the United States we have these big, massive, you know companies that if you have water intruded into your house, you would call your insurance company. Your insurance company would send one of these big, massive companies to your house and it's it's. It's a very much so construction like world where they come in, they rip some stuff out, maybe they spray some chemicals, and they're out your front door. They're mainly billing the insurance companies for all the fans they set up all over the place to just, you know, dry everything out. It's, it's like a whole. When you really, when I really started to understand what is happening, I was completely mind blown, because just setting up the fans is a problem, because now you're blowing, blowing this stuff around, so just that and itself is a problem.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:This gets done. There are 50,000 companies in the United States alone that come in in this same approach cut stuff out, set up fans and just blow stuff around.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So I quickly realized okay, there is a fundamental problem with how this whole industry looks at this, because you have the organism itself, which that's all they're concerned with. Okay, yep, but then you have the byproducts that the organism creates, the spores, the toxins that they are not educating people on I don't even think that they themselves are educated on it and certainly they're not addressing they just want to get out of there and get paid Right At the end of the day.
Speaker 2:They have made such a mess in people's homes that for seven years after this hurricane I was still refixing homes that were supposedly fixed, and I think that's how I started to kind of build a name for myself, if you will, as this person that really understands it can help people Thereafter. The process really is fundamentally very simple, and I think when things are simple they work. You have to yes, you have to open the wall, you have to remove the mold organism, but then you have to understand okay, well, that organism might have been there for two years and in those two years it's been creating these particles. And we have to understand if it's in the HVAC, because if so, that's got to be cleaned and dealt with properly. Then what about all the person's stuff? Well, it settles in the dust, it becomes a part of our stuff essentially. Well, all that has to be cleaned.
Speaker 2:Wow, the house itself and every all the dust that's been accumulating in that house that has to be cleaned right. So I started developing this very thorough process and, of course, insurance companies were not very friendly towards this adaptive adaption to process, but it's necessary and after doing this the way I've been doing it for the past 12 years, actually it was really amazing to see there the main organization that provides standards that the insurance companies use is now changing to follow closer to my process, which is great because that means that these insurance companies are going to have to pay a little more money to do things a little more properly, which is what we need. After developing that process, I started getting calls from people all over the country. It wasn't just the New York area, where I'm from. California needed help, and Florida needed help and Iowa needed help, and I pretty much was forced into figuring out how to make a nationwide company at that point to cover and go anywhere we're needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:And so you know, I went from like one truck and a couple of people that were trained by me to like 25 trucks and many people trained by me, and it is extremely rewarding, extremely exhausting, and you know it's a roller coaster of fun, excitement and challenges.
Speaker 1:You know, definitely yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know that is pretty much how you know the story goes with processes and all of these things. But you know, all I really did, I didn't invent anything. I didn't really figure anything out that wasn't already written by other scientists in textbooks. But what happens is, when you look at it from this perspective of how do I create and define a process, I had to search maybe 20 different places and compile pieces of information from 20 different places to put it together, like my cleaning protocol. It's not from the mold industry. They don't have a cleaning protocol.
Speaker 2:I had to take it from the chemical cleanup industry because, you know, we have oil spills, we have chemical spills and all of that gets cleaned up in a very specific way. And since mycotoxins are toxins produced by mold actually more relate to a chemical exposure because it's a toxin, not really like a particle cleanup. It's a little bit different. And so I started taking bits and pieces from other industries and applying it together and once it worked and I can prove that it worked time and time again by post-testing the place after the fact, using, you know, a lot more technological testing standards than the industry itself did then I realized this could be done everywhere, anywhere you know, as long as you apply these principles to the building specifically.
Speaker 1:Wow, before we talk about some of the things that you do and the system that you have, thank you. When the normal everyday person thinks about mold, we think about bleach. Right, using bleach, just get rid of it. Now, in my perspective, that seems like you're exposing yourself to two tokens, and I've heard that it doesn't actually get rid of mold. Your products and your system have natural. You use natural. No, they're not chemicals, natural stuff.
Speaker 2:They're not chemicals, right yeah, natural all the time.
Speaker 1:Natural products yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's obviously an important thing, isn't it? And I guess, if we go back to like the basics of plants and how they operate because I guess, like mold, is a kind of a growing organism, plant type thing Botanicals have properties in them to fight off mold, don't they? So, for example, I know that tea tree is great for mold because tea tree grows in hot, moist climates which are more susceptible to mold. So to stop them their roots from rotting, they kill it. So it kind of makes complete sense that you would use botanicals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are quite a few essential oils that are really effective as disinfectants, and that's what you're looking for. When you're removing something like mold, you want to accomplish three things. You want to disinfect. You also want something that has a surfactant in it, which is really like the scientific term for dish soap, just to give people some reference here. You need something that soaps up and helps degrease and remove particles, and you want something that is not going to be toxic itself to your health, right? Especially in today's world, there are so many botanical options out there. It's like why would you reach for the bleach, go for these different things that you know?
Speaker 2:Here's my take on this. If the directions tell you that you have to ventilate the room thoroughly to use the product, probably not a good idea, because what it's telling you is if you put this stuff in a small room and breathe enough of this stuff in, you're probably going to die. So they're literally telling you on the bleach instructions make sure you ventilate very well or a lot of serious complications can happen. Well, that's probably not a product I want to be using in my home. Now listen, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, so bleach was associated with clean smell.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, I think we have all experienced that euphemism at some point, where we think that bleach means clean, but it doesn't. That smell is actually toxins entering your body and passing through your olfactory senses. The thing about bleach is for mold is it actually is not effective at killing mold or removing mold. It's effective at bleaching mold, and so I'm pretty sure you don't care about what color it is, you just want it out of there, and so there are so many better alternatives, like botanical options thymol, tea tree oil, as you mentioned. These are really good essential oil-based botanical products that you can buy that you can use to clean it up safely and effectively without any additional exposures.
Speaker 1:Cool, Now you were talking about when you were going into houses. I'm wary of the time we started. We were running a little late, so I've got a couple more things that I'd love to talk to you about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we have time, yeah, cool. So you were talking about when you've gone into homes and you've had to fix up these issues with mold and air quality, and you talked about the furniture and the clothes and how everything has to be treated, and I feel like that, for someone, could be really overwhelming. But I did see on your website that you actually have like do you have products that people can use at home on their own? Is it? Well, I want to know what your system is. I'd love to hear more about that, obviously, because that's what we're here for. But are there different levels of what people need? And I guess that will then lead us to how does someone know what they need?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, so there definitely are different levels of what they need. Not every single person is going to need the exact same thing, and that's mainly because your house might have a totally different problem than my house, but I still need to get you solutions the same way I would get myself solutions, and so the process had to be tailored to becoming a data-driven process around figuring out exactly what's going on in the home and then taking a plan of how you're going to address it. And I think cost is always everybody's biggest barrier to trying to get healthier, and this is the same problem. The barrier is going to be I can't afford to do everything. So tell me what's the top three most important things I need to do, and so we have a process for that how we look through the data, understand what molds are present, how much mold is present, what bacterias are present, how much bacteria is present? Are we talking about something that affects a large area of the home, that impacts a large volume of air that you're breathing in? Well, good, I'm going to probably prioritize that over a little leak in the sink, unless, of course, that little leak wasn't so little. So it's everything kind of gets put into a process that derives from data.
Speaker 2:Now, how does somebody start? Well, this has been the other amazing and challenging part of my journey. Was you start telling people, hey, go test for these things. And what do people do? Well, they call anybody and they say do you test for these things? Good, can you come and test for these things? Well, one thing that I forgot about was that it wasn't just the people fixing the homes that had this archaic way of doing things. It was also the people inspecting the homes that had this archaic way of doing things, because they worked together with these people day in and day out, and there was this common understanding where you just came in and you took an air sample, and as long as the air sample was less than outside, everything is good. And that was just this whole system of how it was set up. And so people would call these inspectors. They'd come over, take an air sample in the center of their house. Numbers would look good. They'd tell them guess what? House is perfect.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's talk through why that doesn't work. Let's just say we have a room that is 10 feet long by 10 feet wide, all right, so my horrible meter conversion would be like three and a half meters by three and a half meters. The testing technology really only captures. What did we learn from COVID about one to two meters away? Right yeah, this testing technology really only captures three to six feet or one to two meters away.
Speaker 2:So if I'm testing in the center of the room, I'm pretty much further away from where the problem might be. Because how often do we have leaks in the center of our room? Not pretty often. We're going to have leaks on an interior wall where there's plumbing, or we're going to have leaks on an exterior wall because it's coming in from the weather outside. So if I test in the center of a room, well guess what I am going to most likely show. It looks normal when just two feet away or less than a meter away, if I just move this machine to test, it would show off the charts levels.
Speaker 2:So that became this other problem of people saying well, my house is fine, I've tried everything, I'm hopeless, my doctor doesn't know what's wrong with me, there's nothing wrong in my house. I had this person come out and I'm completely hopeless. And so this happens so often that I had to tell people to get another inspection. And nobody likes to waste money when they do something right that I said we're going to have to develop a test that is way more efficient at getting us answers on what we're exposed to.
Speaker 1:And can people do that at home? Sorry, I interrupt you. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Because we had to cut the professional out of the equation, because the professional just wants to come in and do this air sample, and it doesn't matter how much I educated the client to interview the inspector and tell them what they wanted, they just kept wanting to push to do the same thing. So I said, well, if we come up with a test that is consumer friendly, that uses PCR technology so we can get the DNA of what's actually there, we could probably develop a tool where people just screen their entire houses and then back into the data using PCR technology and then create a reporting system that's really consumer friendly. Because there was other tests that existed, like the ERME you might have heard of right that used PCR technology, but it was very confusing so it almost wasn't helpful. So we did this and we are working on shipping this worldwide. Right now it's based in the US and for the first time, people are using this tool as their step one. Do I have a problem?
Speaker 1:So do they do the test and then send it back to you?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah. So I think we've all tried an at home test or two before at this point. It's pretty much like every other at home test. This was a sample box here, but you open this box and it looks something like this and it comes with a little like a Swiffer cloth.
Speaker 2:That's the best way to describe it and it's completely sanitized and vacuum sealed. You collect dust from across your house. You send it back back in this little box. It arrives to the laboratory we partner with the largest laboratory in the United States for environmental services and they analyze it. It goes right back into our reporting template so that it's consumer friendly and easy to understand. It's beautifully color coded so you can know this abnormal or 10 times higher or 100 times higher.
Speaker 2:What are we looking for here? And one of the reasons that you know the limit. Every test has its limitations, right? I just mentioned some limitations with the air test. This test is not going to tell you where the problem is. It's just going to tell you do I have a problem? So this is a much better screening tool because you're getting an average of what you're being exposed to across the dust of your house, as opposed to testing one little cube of space here. That doesn't give you an accurate picture of what you might be exposed to across all of the space.
Speaker 2:What I liked even better about this whole idea was now people can take this to their inspector and they can say look, I need your help. I see there is a problem here. Can you help me find where it's coming from? We're no longer asking someone to just take an air sample in the center of the room. We're asking them to put their detective hat on and actually help us find something. Now, through this process, we put people back in the driver's seat. They are now empowered to control the outcome of the person that comes into their home. That has really made a massive difference in people being able to get where they need to go faster.
Speaker 1:Once they've determined, they've done the test, they've determined that there is a problem. What next Do they does the system go all right? Well, if you've got this going on, like you said before, you've got the leak under your sink, you need this thing. The entire house is pretty bad. You need this thing, or do you still have people that come out? Is it DIY or a bit of both Can be.
Speaker 2:I just had a call with someone earlier before I joined you. Actually, they're doing a lot of this stuff DIY. We went over the results. Based upon their specific results, I was like it's most likely in the HVAC system, because it's not so high where I'm like there has to be massive leaks happening here. It's not so low where the place is perfect. We looked at it and said my guess is it would be the HVAC system. I asked them some questions and the last time they had it cleaned it's been four years. It's far too long. It's probably in the HVAC system.
Speaker 2:What sort of filter do you have? Well, not a very good one. If you don't have a very good one, these tiny particles pass the filter because they're not efficient enough. They're not capturing these tiny particles and they're getting to the system. We worked through that. What sort of? Have you had any leaks recently? Because I noticed on the test there was a species called catomium. Catomium takes three to five days to grow. Could only grow if there's a leak. Have you had any leaks? Well, we've had these two leaks, good. Have you repaired them properly? Well, yeah, we did this, this and this Good.
Speaker 2:Was there a carpet in that room? Yes, there was carpet in that room. Okay, what did you do? Well, we shot back up the water and we just put some fans on it. Okay, did you ever just check underneath the carpet? No, no, no, we haven't. Should we do that? Yeah, well, we've got a lot of things that might be mold there, because the carpet holds moisture. You had fans on it, but how quickly really did it dry? If it's touching another surface Two surfaces touching one another traps moisture.
Speaker 2:They had a laundry list of things to go and look at and send me an email about and tell me, you know, to kind of figure out next steps from there. We got the HVAC clean, we're going to get the HVAC clean, we're going to clean the house after, because we want to clean the HVAC first, and then, probably a month from now, they'll retest and watch those numbers drop. The only reason a number wouldn't drop is if there's a source, an organism. They're constantly creating those particles, so you can't decipher exactly where it's coming from. But because I've seen so many of these things and have seen and understand how these problems develop, it's really easy for me even to guide people over the phone, based upon those results, what's likely happening. And then they just have to do some further investigation. But they find it Now.
Speaker 2:If I had seen their results and it was, everything was off the charts and you know the colors were lit up all over the place, which means there's elevation then I probably would have said look, there appears like there could be several issues here, and I think the best move at this point would be to get a thorough inspection done so we can understand and correlate what we're finding in the dust to where these things might be growing, because when it gets that bad, there's not just one thing you can do. You may need to really look at it and say, okay, well, how many of problems are there and what's the worst, how much surface areas is covering and what are we going to need to do to give them the best three or four steps they can achieve? Because when you get to that level, sometimes yeah it can be very overwhelming if you have to work on multiple renovation projects at the same time.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and wash all your clothes.
Speaker 2:And wash all your clothes.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool. So you've got a bit of a system happening. You want to reach 100 million people every year by 2030. So what does that look like when it comes to a process? So say, I come to your website, do you want someone to go to your website and then have the test and then start using the system? What does it look like for you to reach and improve the quality of life for those 100 million people?
Speaker 2:I think it starts with being able to reach 100 million people. And to further clarify I'm not trying to make 100 million sales. I don't necessarily care if anybody buys something for me or not. What I care about is for 100 million people to now realize holy cow, this definitely impacts my health and they do something about it, and there are many people I work with that do everything themselves. I sell them virtually nothing, and the reality of the situation is I don't even look at this from caring about myself. I have two small kids, a four-year-old and an eight-year-old.
Speaker 2:If the population has been getting sicker since I'm a kid and continues to go in that trajectory, as I'm getting into the grave, if you will, and this is being passed down to my kids and my grandkids and I have done nothing about this, what kind of world are we leaving for the future generations?
Speaker 2:And listen, I could be wrong. Maybe my theory is wrong, maybe it's not, maybe air quality isn't the missing link, like I think it is, maybe it's not, but if I'm right, that helps so many people and I think that's kind of the place where I'm sitting, and it's like if I can help 100 million people, which is not easy to do. By the way, I'm sure a lot of people listening are like 100 million, yeah, that's crazy, and I think the nice thing about setting goals is if you reach for the stars, you might land up on the moon, which wouldn't be a bad shot either. If I do 50 million instead of 100 million, I think I'll be very pleased with myself for the effort that I put forth. I don't have a process for this part. I'm going to be very blunt.
Speaker 1:Wow, they keep telling people and keep doing what you do.
Speaker 2:You know if you ask what my process is. I'm on here with you. I try to go on as many podcasts as I possibly can because I want people to really get this information. I go on every news network that I possibly can. I'm wrapping up my second book as we speak that hopefully does better than the first book, and I'm just taking every step that I can take and I say yes to everything. I mean people tell me you need to start saying no to things and I'm like no, because the more that I can get the message across, the closer I get to that goal, and I think that if I can even just make a sliver, just a sliver of health, hope and happiness for somebody, it's all worth it and I think that's key.
Speaker 2:There was a book that I read that I think honestly changed my life. It was called the Healing Organization. I don't know if you've heard of it, but the premise of the book is there are so many of us that exist that create businesses, that are entrepreneurs, that want to make a living creating something unique, cool, amazing. Of course, anything that we personally create, we will always think it's amazing. We're biased. The premise of this book is to not just create something cool or unique or useful, but to create something and to do good in the world.
Speaker 2:I think so many of us we rely on our governments to do good in the world, and I think a lot of us, no matter what political affiliation you may be, probably get disappointed in that process, right, it's why, every few years, we're screaming let's change regimes. But we just see, saw and that never seems to work. But what if we could do something about the world we live in by creating amazing things that help other people? And look from an economic standpoint how is our global economy doing when 60% of the global economy is dealing with chronic illness? How many people are suffering and in poverty because of that? That don't need to be? How many people are not contributing to the flow of the universe, if you will, because they are too sick to yeah, yeah, Very true.
Speaker 1:I'm totally down with what you're saying and what I love about what you're doing is that and this is kind of like where I come from with a lot of the stuff that I like to teach people Is that you're empowering people to actually go hang on a minute something's going on and find out, because we do have the ability to take control of what's going on in our homes, in our bodies, and we forget right, we forget Life's fast.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of stuff going on.
Speaker 1:We get exposed to a whole bunch of other stuff that tells us that we need to work, we need to buy this, we need to do this, we need to eat this, we need to, you know, and we forget you could even go so far, you know.
Speaker 1:Then you get sick and then you go to the doctors and you need to take this, and people just get into this whole momentum of like someone else telling them what to do. But what I love about what you're doing and what I believe is really important is to give people their power back and, yeah, make open their eyes to the possibilities of what you can actually do for yourselves to be more energized, to be healthier and like, I'm totally with you when it comes to the small people you know and teaching them and creating a better world and a better future for them, whatever that may look like, Because I've got a seven and a nine year old as well and, yeah, I think it's really important for us to remember that if we're healthier, we're more energized, we can take better care of those people and we can think more positively about how we can support other people as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to close, but just before we do anywhere. Where can we direct people to find out more about home plans? Your book, how do we get?
Speaker 2:the weather.
Speaker 1:How do we help you reach your 100 million, apart from on the podcast, obviously.
Speaker 2:So, please, you can definitely go to my website. It's themichaelrabinocom, and there's a wealth of information, blogs, all kinds of amazing things. If you want to go down a rabbit hole, there it is. You should also follow me on Instagram, and it's at the Michael Rabino. And, with that being said so my book is under wraps. It is going to be out in 2024. And I can't I'm not ready to promote it yet because we're still wrapping up and putting the finishing touches on it. But if you follow me on Instagram or if you bookmark my website or something, I promise you will see it.
Speaker 2:But what I can tell you is the book explores how we have never been sicker kind of like how I talked about today and it explores how air quality may be the missing link, and there are a compilation of amazing medical journals, peer reviewed studies all out there that most people don't look this stuff up all day long, with amazing client stories, including the story of Gwyneth Paltrow and Christina Perry, and some really well known American celebrities and, of course, just your average families that have struggled as well. And I think what people can expect from this book when it's when it does come out next year, is it'll blow their mind. You know the data that already exists, the information that's already out there that draws parallels to air quality and our health, and people will be probably astonished and you might feel a little dumb, but that's okay that you haven't known this information before. And I want to remind you that I talked to doctors regularly. There are so many doctors that have these aha moments when I'm talking to them like, oh my God, I never realized that could be that way it is.
Speaker 2:Once you see it, you have an aha moment. But if you haven't heard of it because it literally is invisible as you look around, it's just not on our radar. So I hope that when the book is released, people will find it informative, because we want to empower people we don't want to just tell them the world's falling apart and see you later but informative, eye opening and can finally take control of their health. There are so many people that suffer from this. I estimate about 2 billion people dealing with chronic illness directly related to environmental exposures and if, just again, just a slice of those people can get healthier as a result, that's what I'm here for.
Speaker 1:Right, and one final question, michael when do we expect to see your home friend system worldwide and in Australia?
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:Australia is definitely a market.
Speaker 2:Australia is definitely a market I'm extremely interested in and the reason being is because mold and damp I pay attention globally. Mold and damp has been extremely increasing awareness in Australia. There's some in fighting with the medical community right now.
Speaker 1:on is it a thing Is it?
Speaker 2:not a thing. As I'm sure you might be aware of, the Sandeep Gupta is an Australian doctor that advocates for seers and chronic inflammatory response syndrome and mold illness. So it is very much at probably. It's probably today where the US was 10 years ago in terms of pushing forth into the awareness category. So I am extremely excited about Australia.
Speaker 2:It's going to come down to some of the logistical challenges of being ahead into the future a day and trying to make sure people get properly trained and finding people in Australia who want to learn a new way of doing things and, of course, one of the other challenges. In America people pay for a lot of this stuff out of pocket and insurance only gives them a small portion. So we have to understand how do we help people in Australia? What sort of programs exist in Australia Insurance and government assistance that allows this system to work, and that's going to take some education, probably of those organizations, to get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, but it's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll stay tuned.
Speaker 1:We'll follow you on Insta and keep up to date with all of those things.
Speaker 2:At least that will give you all the advice you need right now to handle things until I get there.
Speaker 1:Great. Thank you so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure and I wish you well.
Speaker 2:Likewise Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much.