Have you ever considered the intricate dance between our physical and emotional selves? Nadine sits down with Jules Sargent, a massage therapist with a passion for the human soul, embarking on a new venture as a counselor.
In a heartfelt and profound conversation, Jules unveils the transformative nature of her 'talk-touch' sessions, a therapeutic approach blending massage with dialogue to address emotional blockages.
As they discuss Jules's transition from the bustling life in Sydney to the tranquil mid-north coast, the conversation reveals the essentiality of self-care for those in the healing professions, and Jules's own practices to maintain her emotional reservoir.
Touching the tender topics of death, grief, and the somatic signs of emotional turmoil, this episode traverses the often-unspoken link between our bodies and the emotions that course through them. Inspired by the wisdom of Peter Levine and Gabor Maté, Nadine and Jules confront the human tendency to bottle up feelings and the regret that can accompany unexpressed sentiments towards those we've lost. They reflect on the Western stance on mortality and advocate for a more empathetic approach in expressing love and resolving conflicts before it's too late.
In an exploration that spans from the profound impact of journaling to the emotional complexities of cesarean births, the duo shares personal insights on the transformative power of acknowledging and validating one's experiences. They break down societal pressures that can leave new mothers feeling disempowered and address the necessity of compassionate communication.
As the episode closes, Nadine and Jules invite listeners to consider the profound influence of empathy and genuine care for the well-being of those around us, whether it's in counselling, parenting, or simply being a friend.
Jules has been working one on one with people for 20 years. Her passion for helping people started with massage therapy.
Her love for working with people through touch therapy over the past two decades has brought an awareness of the mind/body connection to the fore. Because of her devotion to this industry and her ongoing connection with people and touch therapy, and her evolving understanding of how she can best serve her clients, she has been inspired to become a qualified counsellor.
Find Jules @julessargent.com
Have you ever considered the intricate dance between our physical and emotional selves? Nadine sits down with Jules Sargent, a massage therapist with a passion for the human soul, embarking on a new venture as a counselor.
In a heartfelt and profound conversation, Jules unveils the transformative nature of her 'talk-touch' sessions, a therapeutic approach blending massage with dialogue to address emotional blockages.
As they discuss Jules's transition from the bustling life in Sydney to the tranquil mid-north coast, the conversation reveals the essentiality of self-care for those in the healing professions, and Jules's own practices to maintain her emotional reservoir.
Touching the tender topics of death, grief, and the somatic signs of emotional turmoil, this episode traverses the often-unspoken link between our bodies and the emotions that course through them. Inspired by the wisdom of Peter Levine and Gabor Maté, Nadine and Jules confront the human tendency to bottle up feelings and the regret that can accompany unexpressed sentiments towards those we've lost. They reflect on the Western stance on mortality and advocate for a more empathetic approach in expressing love and resolving conflicts before it's too late.
In an exploration that spans from the profound impact of journaling to the emotional complexities of cesarean births, the duo shares personal insights on the transformative power of acknowledging and validating one's experiences. They break down societal pressures that can leave new mothers feeling disempowered and address the necessity of compassionate communication.
As the episode closes, Nadine and Jules invite listeners to consider the profound influence of empathy and genuine care for the well-being of those around us, whether it's in counselling, parenting, or simply being a friend.
Jules has been working one on one with people for 20 years. Her passion for helping people started with massage therapy.
Her love for working with people through touch therapy over the past two decades has brought an awareness of the mind/body connection to the fore. Because of her devotion to this industry and her ongoing connection with people and touch therapy, and her evolving understanding of how she can best serve her clients, she has been inspired to become a qualified counsellor.
Find Jules @julessargent.com
Hello, hello, it's Nadine here and I'm here with this week's episode of Life, health and the Universe and I'm joined this week by my guest and friend and massage therapist, jules Jules Sargent. Welcome, jules, good to have you here, thank you to get you here, but but here we both are. Um, I'm really looking and I was kind of thinking about it this morning and I'm like this girl's probably never seen me like for an hour, like face to face, my head in a in a table. I like looking at your face. This is nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a nice change, okay, um, so, um, thank you for for joining me. So quick intro um, as I said, you're dual sergeant. You're a massage therapist and a counselor I'm not sure, like, how else to describe that like in terms of what, what you actually focus on in your, in your work. Um, you're similar to me. Moved from sydney to the mid north coast not that long ago. I think we've just hit four years. I don't know if you're similar. We're around 18 months. Oh, you're still newbies, so you're very fresh. Yeah, and, uh, you moved up here with husband and little one for a quieter life. Sparta, yeah, sparta, out of the big smoke, yeah, sparta. So I'm super grateful to have you here.
Speaker 1:We are never, ever short of anything to talk about, but we're here today to talk about your work, specifically the counseling work, because it's something that you are relatively new at. Like, it's obviously come into your work a lot. You're never just a massage therapist, right. You're never just a personal trainer like me. You're counseling. You're working with people's emotions, behaviors and that sort of thing when they're on the table. Um, but you're trying, you're directing your work, um, more into the area of counseling. That's right, yeah, yeah, so we're here to talk about that today, okay, um, and so I'm gonna hand over to you. I'm drinking my coffee Saturday morning, just kicking back and having a chat, oh yeah. So tell us a little bit about about you. You know who you are, where you've been beautiful.
Speaker 2:Thanks, nadine, thanks for having me. You asked me um at some point last year and I think I fogged you off for the first, first, first and second time you asked me. I think I changed subject quite quickly, um, and then I thought no, it's, it's um, life is about doing things, um, that make us feel a little bit uncomfortable. Um, so I'm doing that. I do feel a little bit uncomfortable, but it's only because I'm a little bit nervous, but you hold space beautifully.
Speaker 2:So I started working one-on-one with people about 20 years ago and that was in the massage realm more sort of the sports remedial sort of grunt, you know, heavy, heavy sort of tissue work and felt very comfortable in that realm and have been quite successful with that, setting up a business in the northern beaches of Sydney and then moved over to London and set my business up there quite quickly and lived over there for five years doing doing the massage, and as the years went on, I just I was just learning more and more about people, how we think, why we think these thoughts and why we act, and you know just different, just everything, everything about humans, and it just fascinated me so.
Speaker 2:I think it was about. It was in the middle of one of the I think it was the first lockdown of COVID or something. I started studying my counselling so maybe three years ago and it just seemed like a natural progression for me. Having people on a massage table is, and can be, a very vulnerable state for some. You know, you've got your naked or you've just got your underpants on and essentially it's a stranger just working on your tissues and it brings a lot up and it brings a lot out and I felt like I was holding space for that quite well, but I needed extra tools to help me with that. Hence the study into the um, into the counselling um.
Speaker 2:And then, as we touched on, I moved up here 18 months ago with my family and it was my opportunity to step away a little bit from the massage. That's what my client base knew in Sydney and I thought it would be quite hard to sidestep away from that with that existing base. So I took the opportunity when we moved up here and I offer just massage or just the counselling. But I've also done a little beautiful hybrid of a talk-touch session where for the first half of the session it's essentially the counselling part of it and we just have a chat and we debrief and download and I pick up on different emotions that are being stored in the body and then I get the client on the table and release that through the touch and it's just so powerful, so powerful wow, wow.
Speaker 1:Do you get emotional when you do that work, do you like? How do you? Because I think I probably question. I think I'd probably, because you feel it right, that's how you know how to treat it. So how do you? Yeah, it not with them, sort of thing yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's a tough one, I mean because in the session you're working on so many different levels. I mean I find it hard sometimes to block certain people's energy and I don't know, I can't put that down to you know, it might be that they carry a heavier energy, or it might be that I feel an affiliation to them. You know, sometimes you can't describe energy which is beautiful, right? So, yeah, I just always make sure I do my self-care, so it might be an ocean swim after a day's work, or an ice bath or, you know, some meditation, really washing off physically and energetically, washing off the clients had that day yeah, because I reckon I think even what I knew.
Speaker 2:You can affirm or deny this, but like physically working with people, regardless of your whether you're doing the, the talk side of it could be quite energetically draining absolutely, and, and you know, I could have someone walk in for a massage and and this has happened over the years walk in for a massage, and this has happened over the years walk in for a massage. We do the debrief at the start. I get the history and the background. They jump on the table and not a word is spoken, but I'm picking up through their body and you know it's such a closeness, it's such a personal thing. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:We're going to talk more about your counselling, but you mentioned when we said that we would have this chat about somatics, and can you tell us, talk us through, what somatics is and how you work with that in your practice as well?
Speaker 2:I'm just going to use quite layman's terms because I don't feel like it's basically how our body stores energy and emotions, okay, and and then what we do with that? So that can be a domino effect of huge compensation physically in the body. Um, and then I mean, and that would be a good outcome, because at the other end it could be disease and illness. You know people that repress and push down emotions. And don't get me wrong, there's a time and a place for self-preservation.
Speaker 1:But if that's ongoing over years, it can cause a lot of health, lot of health stuff, as you would know yeah, I think it like I really want to draw people's attention to this because I think that it's still like there's still, with so many people would disconnect with that that our emotions play a significant and vital role in our physical bodies and like we actually like there's studies that have been done where you know, for example, when people meditate, if they can, they can change their chemistry and they've had blood tests done and they've watched their brainwaves and that sort of thing but their blood work changes and it's like.
Speaker 1:This is like, it's real. It's like this shit's real, absolutely, absolutely. Do you have you got any examples of like, how it could be stored in the body, like, because obviously you're talking about disease you could talk about, I guess um, for us it could be working in the, the fitness industry. It could be like injury, like someone who gets consistently injured, um could be an emotional thing that's going on for them. Where do you, how do you have any examples of like when you're working with the tissues?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had one, a recent client, um, only last week and she's in a bit of a, she's in a bit of a quandary at the moment with um, financial stability, and she didn't mention this until after the session, which was interesting because it was just for a massage, it wasn't the counselling and she's a regular client and I said to her at the end of the session what's going on with this lower back, like your sacrum and pelvis really don't feel okay, it's very unusual for you to be storing there, and I just feel like there's no space. And she just broke down and she just said I've just got X, y, z going on and it's all around stability and security. And that, especially in women, is where we store If we're not feeling secure or stable. It goes straight to our sacrum and pelvis and is presented in her immediately. Wow, it's just, it's undeniable, it's undeniable.
Speaker 2:And then by having that touch, that somatic, it just released in her and she just had this flood of tears that was streaming in her body. Yeah, and she made the comment. She said I haven't cried for years. Wow, and she looked different, she felt more stable in her body. She messaged me two days later saying I've just gone for a long walk up and down hills and I haven't felt this great for months. Wow, and it wasn't from a physical injury, it wasn't from oh, I twisted out of bed. The wrong way it was, it was build up of emotion and stress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have you read any books about like that stuff? I know that there's a guy, peter Levine, who wrote the Body Keeps the Score and I think that's about trauma and how we process it in our bodies. Have you read any other books that, like?
Speaker 2:I've kind of feel like in the past I've I have, um, you know, heard of books about that stuff yes, yeah, I mean, there's a lot like um, I'm just there's one I can picture saying my body speaks, my, I can't. I can't picture it. I've got it down in my studio, but there's. I don't know if you've ever touched on his work. Is it Gabble Mate?
Speaker 1:Ah, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Am I saying it right yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I started listening to his podcast, annoyingly over a flight from Coffs to Sydney and it was such a small flight that I couldn't hear my podcast- because I was in a wing to sydney and it was such a small flight that I couldn't hear my podcast because I was in the wing.
Speaker 2:um, but just a beautiful voice and a beautiful delivery of you know, and it's just, there's so many, as you say, different studies and um tests that have been done, it's, you can't deny this think actually, when I first came across it, louise Hay was yes, that back in the. Yes, back in the day you might have been one of the first. You know like you can heal your life. Yes, exactly, yeah. Oh, who was the other one that just dropped in?
Speaker 1:Who was the other one that just dropped?
Speaker 2:in. I'll come back to it. It will come to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think all of that stuff is super fascinating, yeah, and it's hard as well, because it's kind of on a logical level, if you do like, if it does resonate for you, and you kind of go, oh yeah, well, that makes sense. You know there's proof. But some of those feelings and emotions run so deep, don't they, that you can think that you're kind of, you know, meditating your way out of them.
Speaker 2:But there's often the other voice it's there. It's there, it's there. You know, childhood, early childhood, stuff that we wouldn't have a memory of necessarily. Yeah, in utero, in utero, oh scary.
Speaker 1:Oh dear, scary, One of the okay Things are going to get so um, before we press record, I was like, oh, I said to you I hope I don't cry, but then I was like part of the whole reason I wanted to talk to you. Aside from the fact that we always have really good conversations, um was and rants?
Speaker 1:yeah, we do love a rant, love putting the world to rights. We're being very we're actually being quite subdued today. We are, I like, this version of us. Who are we? So, yeah, I was like, oh, I hope I don't cry. And then I was like part of the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is because I'm because of that. I want to explore our human behavior when it comes death and grief. Um, getting your perspective as a counselor, um, so, and and like that, either, let's start with the crying thing, right, yeah, because I'm like I hope I don't cry. And then I'm like, why is it such a bad thing to cry?
Speaker 1:So, at the end of last year, my nan died and there comes, and so there was a period of time leading up to it, right, getting unwell, she was in hospital and I just started to contemplate life and death, right, and I was so one of the big questions for me, um, that came up that I would love to talk about, and usually, when I, once I've got past this kind of lump in my throat, I'm okay, like I won't cry the whole time. Um is like, why do we wait until someone is dead or about to die before we express how we feel that was a big one that came up, especially because I know that my mum and my nan had a an interesting relationship, you know, and it's all our own personal perspectives, right, it's how we interpret it. So my mum had her stories about her relationship, her, you know, childhood with her mom and her relationship and how she never felt wanted and all of those things. And I thought, when someone gets to the end of their life, do you want to, do you, as the person that's being left behind, want to, um, still feel all of those things, not have resolved all of those things? Why do we wait until the last minute before all of that stuff comes up? Big questions, but these are kind of the things that I was pondering, and we just don't talk about death.
Speaker 2:No, the Western lens of death is so toxic, it's so jarring and I feel this is all personal opinion really cold, really unempathetic, really just disjointed and disconnected, really just disjointed and disconnected. Um, I, I definitely feel like there's something in um, something to do with generational. So, um, you know, for your nan and mum, it's that generation where it was sort of you know that we don't, we don't show emotion, so that definitely would come into play. I hope that as we teach our children it, it changes. But it's like I've always been confused at why someone would have. If they put out an invitation to a party, they might get 30 people, but if it was their funeral, they'd get 130. And I've always thought why aren't we same sort of thing? Why is it after the person's gone, do we?
Speaker 1:show up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's bamboozled me and in the work I've done in the counselling realm. So when I first started the counselling, I and still do volunteer for a wonderful association called NALAG, the National Association of Loss and Grief. Okay, and they support people, can reach out and have counselling sessions for free essentially it's a voluntary service and I felt so privileged and I still feel privileged volunteering for this association because the people that open up to you and share their experiences around death and grief and loved ones is just phenomenal, from all ages. Losing, you know, an elderly grandparent or losing a child, it's. I feel it brings more of a stigma and it makes it worse because we don't talk about it. Yeah, we need to talk about it, Everyone experiences it. It's the one thing we can't get away from, but it's almost taboo in some households, yeah, yeah totally.
Speaker 1:It's weird, isn't it? I really want to get to the bottom of it. I don't know if we will, but I think that I guess one of the reasons that I wanted to have this conversation on the podcast is to get people to think about it and like what are their associations with death? And is it like I guess there's a bit of fear?
Speaker 2:There's definitely fear. It's the unknown and, as we know, fear is the unknown. Fear is future. It's all unknown and, as we know, fear is the unknown. Fear is future. It's all that like we don't know. We've never been here before. I'll briefly touch on this.
Speaker 2:My dear dad. I lost my dear dad last year to the horrible disease of MND motor neurons year to the horrible disease of MND motor neurons. And my dad was a very fit, vibrant 78-year-old man. If you'd met him you would have thought he was 60. And from date of diagnosis to the date of my dad's funeral, it was 16 weeks. We had four months with him. Dad's funeral it was 16 weeks. Well, we had four months with him. And my dad was from northern England, he was from Newcastle and raised by a Scottish mother, so very crack on. You know, I don't know if my dad ever received a hug from his parents. So then that was passed down and dad found it really hard to show that emotion. But in that 16 weeks, nadine, I got to have conversations with my dad. I would never have had if he just didn't wake up one morning, yeah, morning, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I have experienced grief and loss before with with grandparents, um, but when it was someone so close and I was, I was with him a lot in that, in that physically with him a lot, it's. It's given me a new perspective and lens as well. So it's definitely taken away the fear, yeah, so maybe there is something in that. It's. Maybe, if people haven't experienced it or been with someone at end of life, it is the unknown and it is scary. It is the unknown and it is scary, but if you can bring a softening to that and an openness and just a really heart-centred approach. In my case, dad, I've never said these things to you and I'm going to sit here and tell you now because I've been given this gift, I've been given this opportunity and it was reciprocated Like he, it was just beautiful. It was just beautiful and this is someone who lives 78 years in a certain way, like a really stoic way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and end of life can do beautiful things. It doesn't have to be tragic, it doesn't have to be dark and gloomy, like he is everywhere now. Yeah, it's my belief system. He wore red a lot. His favourite colour was red, and I know when I need to speak to my dad. I look, I go for a walk and I just see red, red cars, people wearing red hats. So and that leads me into what is really important in loss and grief, and I just want to say grief isn't just bereavement. Grief can be anything from the loss of a job, moving countries, you know anything. It's just not bereavement. But we are talking about bereavement here. It's really important to have a faith or a belief system, whatever that looks like, because I don't know if I would have gotten through that experience with my dad without my own belief system and faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Wow, thank you for sharing that with us. Yeah, I think it. I think, um, okay, so my experience so far, like I haven't lost a parent. I've lost a couple of all my grandparents now, I think, but um it, it interests me as well how it's really easy to be quite pragmatic right as the grown up. You know well, I think I'll probably live until I'm 85. And then I'm gonna, you know, I've written my will and I'm gonna, you know, and all of those things, and make it quite practical. And, yeah, not express like I'm frightened even beforehand or like this is going to be. You know, this is just another part of life, like it's just so taboo, true, yeah, and yeah, I am Interestingly like obviously there's a whole bunch of shit that I've still got to go through, because I cried when my nan died and my kids were like are you crying?
Speaker 1:Because I don't cry very much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but that could you know. And then that leads me on to and this might not be the case for you, but it can then be something like um cumulative grief, where it's. You know, I've I've had clients who will come and talk to me about a loss, and there's one client in particular I'm thinking of, so I'll reference her. I won't reference her personally, but I'll reference her story. She came to me about talking about the loss of her mother, which was quite recent, but actually the second session in it was all about the loss of her father 10 years prior that she'd never dealt with. Wow. So that's compounding all the grief and if we don't get on top of it when it is still quite fresh and raw, which is really hard to do, it will bite you in the ass. It will bite you in the ass. Grief is a fucker, it's a shit. Yeah, wow, it will get you 5, 10, 15, 20 years later, wow.
Speaker 1:It's hard, isn't it? It's, yeah, and I think it can be, probably can be hard as well, because there'll be so many, so much going on emotionally, like if you didn't have a very good relationship with, if you agree, like bereavement, if, if you didn't have a good relationship there, there could potentially be all the things that you didn't have a good relationship there. There could potentially be all the things that you didn't resolve. Oh, all that. But then it's like, well, they were, they were horrible to me and and so you have all of these feelings of like relief or yeah, yeah, to go with it, yeah, kind of process all of that as well. What? What kind of person am I if I'm relieved that this person has left, kind of thing?
Speaker 2:yeah, and we question, but there's no template. There's no you know what, what you felt, um, and what you're still feeling, clearly, around the loss of your nan. It might not have been the same for another grandparent, because you've had completely different relationships with everyone. Our relationships are different with every other individual and I think what's really important to remember amongst the heaviness of grief, is a level of acceptance in who that person was and also be kind to yourself in the fact that it takes two in a relationship. And I forget the saying. It's something about and maybe I've made this up, maybe there is no saying, but you know, when you put someone that's passed on a pedestal, so when the and I will still reference my dad, and he wasn't all good, you know good in inverted commas he had his faults because he was human and at times our relationship was really fraught, but at the end it's acceptance and forgiveness and heart-centred is just so important, and that is to the other person but more importantly towards yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 1:When you so you have you, you you've had counseling. Are you in ongoing counseling for your personal? Uh, how do you as a, as a counselor and um, a volunteer for the? Um, what's it called? Yeah, um, what sort of is? Is it talk therapy? Is there anything else involved, like it's, it's talk therapy.
Speaker 2:So with the national association of loss and grief, uh, that's all. Phone sessions. It can be zoom, but a lot of minor phone, which brings another element of um, deeper communication, because you don't have the visual. So there's a lot of. You've got to pick up on a lot of cues just through the sound, just through the voice, which is one level. Then you've got the level that we're at, where Zoom, we can see each other and there is a level of energy exchange, but then when you've got someone physically in the same room, then that's another, you know. So there's a lot of different layers and realms that come into what sort of session you have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the interesting, another interesting thing about grief is and it was funny I've been on the other side as the practitioner and therapist and someone has come to me for grief and we end up talking about a whole heap of other stuff. Yeah, and that's what's happened to me personally. So I've probably had now, I reckon, seven sessions with my counsellor since, since losing dad, and I think, time wise, we've probably only spent one session on the grief at the moment. Right, because it's what it brings up. It's stuff that we have again for self-preservation in the past, pushed down and repressed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's all got to come out first, because that the grief is the deep, the deeper stuff. There's a lot of stuff bubbling on the surface with us all the time, because we've lived a life doesn't matter, you know and we've had experiences. But I said to my counsellor are we ever going to get to this? Like, are we ever going to get to it? And she said it. It's obvious that you're not ready yet, jules, because there's other stuff that we've got to unpack. So I get it. I get it from both ends now, from from the from the therapist side and the client side yeah, do you um?
Speaker 1:do you feel like you come away from a session um with like work that you need to do? Like do you think all right, uh, do you journal or like, have you got any? Like? Do you use the same sort of um processes, like swimming in the ocean or ice bath or anything like that, to help you with your own like when you've been in a counselling session, as the counselling?
Speaker 2:client. Yes, I journal a lot after I've been the client. I feel like it's one of those things that hashtagging has taken away the you know journaling is very important, but now it's hashtag journaling. But it's so important I just call it a brain dump. We've got to get it out Again.
Speaker 1:You don't want to store it in your body because then that leads to injuries or illness or disease, ailments and there's so many like we're on those loops, right, those thought loops, where you just have the same things going round and round and round in your head. When you write it down, it's like okay, it's there now.
Speaker 2:It's out, I can now move on to my next thought, next loop. Yeah, exactly Because and you would know this you stay in a loop and I visualise like going down a mountain on skis and creating the same grooves in the snow and just getting deeper and deeper, and deeper and deeper, and that's then in our neurological pathways and it's harder to come back up from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so get it out, don't make the groove deep, yeah, and the deeper those grooves become, the more like we, we kind of create this own personal reality, don't we of like it apparent, I think like, well, it's, yeah, it's all our personal perception, basically and, and it ends up being so far from what the original thought half the time.
Speaker 2:So how did I get to that? Yeah, did I get to that from that, and. But now this is my reality. Yeah, and now I've created this story and narrative yes, yeah, and that's basically our entire life, and then you've got to go and see a counsellor and unpack it all.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's amazing really. You can kind of I mean, it's obviously something that's vitally important to unpack this stuff right for our, for our evolution and also to help with the um not passing it down through the generations. Yeah, like they reckon, for every, every um person that heals, even if we're carrying generational trauma ourselves, we can actually heal back through the generations as well as healing forward so powerful, so powerful.
Speaker 2:And in that, nadine, I just want to sort of spark something in me with again it's that, not making this stuff taboo. Um, our son was five when we were going through this with my dad and the conversations we had with him were so open and obviously he didn't, you know, obviously we weren't going into detail about the horrible disease and illness, but he knew grandpa wasn't well. He went and saw Grandpa in the hospice, in the hospital, and he knew that he was at end of life and he knew that there wasn't much time left for him in this world. We have, again, a belief system and it's funny, kids, the more the morning that that ended up being the morning that the day, the day that dad did pass, my son was brushing his teeth and I said to him I just knew that that was the day and I said I'm not going to go, I'm not working today, neither's. Daddy, do you want to stay home with us or did you want to go and go to daycare? And he said no, mummy. Um, I'm going to go and play with my friends.
Speaker 2:And he was brushing his teeth and he looked at me and he said is grandpa dead yet? Just so, matter of fact, just so. Um, I'm going to use the word untraumatised because we normalised it and it wasn't that there was no heart in that, it's just that there was no story around it. He knew what was going on and then my dad passed that afternoon just before we went and picked our son up and then we told him and he said Mummy, I need to go and play soccer, so my dad, english football, I need to go and play football on the beach for Grandpa. And he speaks, and sometimes we have a cry together, but he just speaks about grandpa. He's a spirit guide, he's, he's all around, he. You know it's normalized for our son, so I'm hoping that you know something that goes on and when he loses me and his dad, eventually he's experienced a level of grief that's normalised.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, because it is the inevitable. We all go and we all leave people behind. That's the thing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm going to change the subject. Do?
Speaker 2:Now we've covered 50 subjects.
Speaker 1:This is something that we talked about last time I was having a massage with you, and I just think it's something that we've both experienced, and I think that there's a level of grief in this as well.
Speaker 1:Um, and that was, uh, we both had cesareans yes and how, um, that can be a real, yeah, experience of grief, and we both expressed that you know to each other that we're fortunate we were able to be, acknowledge how we were feeling about it, but that those experiences for some women can be, um, quite detrimental to their emotional health. Um, yeah, so I just wanted to kind of talk about that, like open up that conversation, um, between you and I, and like, because I think this is also something that needs to be talked about Absolutely, because there's, yeah, I don't know, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know, because it can kind of you can assume that.
Speaker 2:you know, yeah, I don't know if it's a social stigma. I don't know if it's. You know, and we've spoken before and I speak to this a lot with girlfriends where's the sisterhood? I feel like there's something in. I felt shame around not being able to birth my son and I'm not going to and I said this to you, I don't refer to a vaginal birth as a natural birth. Natural birth, it triggers me because what is it?
Speaker 1:That's kind of how it makes you feel. It's like, yeah yeah, what the hell is it If it's not a natural birth? You did all of that Because I built it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like it's yeah, I don't know, and I don't know if it's women, I don't know. If it's, yeah, I I don't know, and I don't know if it's women, I don't know if it's. If it comes down to, we, just, we just block the men out of this one and go full sisterhood, full women, womanhood, and go, oh, my goodness, you've made this amazing human being and you have delivered him or her earth side safely, the end, you know, because I don't. I have never asked you how you entered the world, because it doesn't matter, like I don't like so. But why then, as a mother, do we feel, I don't know, do you feel a bit ripped off that you didn't?
Speaker 1:get to have that experience, yeah, and I feel like it's well. I think we both had the full experience. Did we Amen sister experience? Yeah, amen, sister, we went through the whole lot, we just didn't get the final push. Um, I think our story is quite similar. Do you got in? Did you? Were you induced? Yeah, yeah, induced, um, I have, um, yeah, contractions, went through labor, basically pushed for fuck knows how long, because I was in agony by that point and I'd had, and I think that part of the emotional difficulty, uh, with coming to terms with having eventually having a cesarean, is that they, there's no preparation for that.
Speaker 1:There's like, what's your birth plan? Right, and you go to your classes and you, you know, they tell you how to rock on a ball and how to breathe through contractions. None of them say, if you're in labor for eight hours and nothing's happening, we'll be checking the monitor and if the baby seems like it's in distress, you're going to like they don't, they don't tell you that, no, and so, like you have this plan in your head, you get, you know, potentially only one chance to do this. Yeah, and you know how, um important it is to bring a child earthside right, um, but there's no, yeah, there's, there's no preparation no, there's and, and I don't know for you was it?
Speaker 2:we've got one, we didn't go on to have a second, but for you was it easier for your second to accept the cesarean, or was it still just?
Speaker 1:as hard, it was just as hard yeah so I was supposed to have a v-back, which is vaginal birth after cesarean um, but because there was only 18 months between Winnie and Louie, they say that it's risky. So my waters broke naturally. But they made me stay in hospital instead of like like. I was kind of like at her. My waters broke about four o'clock in the morning. I was at home like I could feel some light contractions. Just wanted to get about my day. Phone them because you're supposed to tell the hospital you know, so that they kind of have it on their records.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah and they're like, oh no, you have to come straight in. And my contraction stopped and I was in overnight and they, they, they were like they came in and they were like you can carry on waiting or you can just have a cesarean. And because Louis was only 18 months old, I was like I'm just gonna have a cesarean. Like I didn't want to, I'd never left him before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and do you know what? That's interesting when you say you were at home, your waters broke and then, and then you're taken away from that environment where you say to hospital, really clinical, and it stops yeah, what's that?
Speaker 1:about and you're not taught to trust yourself. Are you and you're not taught there is?
Speaker 2:no empowerment, no empowerment. We had a doula for our birth oh yeah and she. Because we chose certain, a certain path in birthingthing and we needed a voice, basically, and she was brilliant. But why did we need that? You know? Why did we feel like we needed the third party to voice our voices to the medical industry? Don't start me on that.
Speaker 1:It's just been skewed. I think it's like they're there for like to provide a service and you know, if someone becomes a midwife as a profession, it's because they want to help people deliver babies. But then there's a system that you know and I've heard. I've heard without going off on too much of a rant, but I have heard since I had um louie and you know I was pushing and he wasn't coming out and I've heard since that they have like a protocol that if it's been going on for a period of time, the protocol is we'll move to the next step, yeah, which is forceps, yeah, and then if that doesn't work, yeah, basically intervene it. So it's not necessarily that there's a um danger. Yes, they kind of tell you, ooh, yes, your baby might die, and you're like what are those?
Speaker 2:Of course you get it Exactly, exactly. So now here's a question, looking back, looking back on your first would you do it the same? Would you go in for induction?
Speaker 1:god, I don't know. It's really hard, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, because, yeah, I've asked myself that too and I don't. I don't know if I can drop back into that. They don't empower you.
Speaker 1:I didn't feel empowered about my birth or my pregnancy. I felt doubtful. Yeah, like I was 10 days overdue. Yeah, advanced maternal age, I was 40. And they're like oh risky, you know, could die, baby could die.
Speaker 1:You're old, you're healthier than most 20-year-olds, but don't worry, just go off the age. But then, even after Louis was born, you know, there's a comment like oh yeah, the placenta looked a bit, yeah, so again you're like oh God, thank God, I did, yeah, so you could. Again you're like, oh god, thank god, I did that. You know, yes, yes, because my baby would have died, because my placenta was bad, because I'm old, like you just go and there's the story, yeah, yeah, and so yeah, I guess like linking this back to to grief, I think that's a big one, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:And as you say, you, you're going into it, going it. This might be my only chance. You know, I might not be having more children. This is my and it's. There's such a gravity around it and, you know, pressure, lots of pressure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whether that's societal, coming from within, yeah, yeah, I think, um, when, when it comes to like how how it made me feel emotionally, I mean, when you, when you've got the baby and you know you're going through all of those, the beginning of motherhood and that sort of thing you don't have time really, I don't think to dwell on that stuff too much. But I have been triggered by women who post on socials about this amazing home birth that they had and they film it and the baby's coming out and they they're kind of like right on, you know, um, we can do this kind of thing and I'm like I don't, I didn't do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same, I feel exactly the same. I almost I felt and feel stripped of something, um, and I guess it is that the empowerment and the confidence. I didn't have the confidence, yeah, because it wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't not given to me, but it wasn't't.
Speaker 1:Well, you can't practice right, you can't perfect it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. But that is a really really good example of grief, and this is what I say with your nan yeah, it's grief. Yeah, it's not just bereavement, it's, it's grief over the years of you know you, you, you live abroad now, really from your motherland, so there's a level of loss in that. Even though it was a choice and you wanted to, that's still a okay.
Speaker 1:There's a layer, then this is there, that's another layer, so it's all compound compounding, yeah, and I think, well, going back to, like, society, society and that expectation, it's like you get on with it, especially, I think. Well, I think men and women in different ways, but we get on with it, don't we? We're not allowed to talk about a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, um, you know we have to go to work, regardless of whether you know. I've had a. I remember a friend who had a miscarriage and we were in a group um session doing training and someone said to her when are you going to have another one? Yeah, like, because you have to just keep going, you just have to keep turning up, you don't can't tell anyone, and so there's all. Yeah, there's so many levels of this and I guess, um, the reason I wanted to talk about it is just to really bring awareness to um, to the audience.
Speaker 2:Anyone who's listened to this is like, I guess, considering what we say to other people as well yeah, oh, the amount of times and it's so interesting, willoughby started kindergarten this year and the amount of times in the past couple of weeks I've had women ask me so when are you having your second? It's an expectation and I think you don't know my story. You don't know if I am able to have more children. And then I start to go into this like, oh shit, I've got to justify why Willoughby is an independent child I don't use the term only child and then I'm like, hang on a sec, I don't have to justify any of my life choices. But asking another woman either oh, why didn't you have kids, or why are you having more?
Speaker 1:no, no, no, you awareness, yeah. Yeah, it's a tricky one it's yeah yeah, and I think some women just don't want to have kids oh god, all power to them, I say.
Speaker 2:I never wanted to have kids. Oh God, all power to them, I say.
Speaker 1:I never wanted to have kids. Something happened to me when I was 40 and I thought it would be a good idea. No, it was obviously meant to be, but it's kind of interesting. I was set that I wasn't going to have any, so now I can't imagine it any other way.
Speaker 2:But this is it how things can change.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, now I can't imagine it any other way, but this is it how things can change. Yes, yes, um, so, yeah, we need to talk about things, but we need to be aware of other people's experiences as well. Language as well, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's the language you use and yeah, all that, the tone but language is is so important. It's, it's even that um, you know, around the cesarean or the independent child. Oh, you've just got willoughby. You know, even just the word just in front of it makes me less than do you know what?
Speaker 1:I've got two kids, um, but if I meet someone with three, I feel like I'm totally inadequate. There you go, there you go. How is that? There you go. I'm like you know, I'm totally like in awe of someone who's had three children, totally not in awe of the fact that I've had two, or even had one, right, I mean like it's amazing that anyone does it. But I, yeah, I have some deep seated like less than stuff going on it's a thing, isn't?
Speaker 2:it and then chucking the fact that you know you had c-sections. Oh my god, oh no, like yeah, it's crazy yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if someone was going to, okay, we've just hit our hour. We had a little bit of technical hitch so we'll, if you're okay with it, we'll go on for a few more minutes. Yeah, sure, I am mindful of um time. Um, why would well? We've talked about two reasons why someone might um consider I would. I don't want to say need counseling, you need counseling. I don't want to say need counselling, you need counselling. Consider counselling or support. How would someone reach out to you? Why might they reach out to?
Speaker 2:you. It's such a personal I'm going to use the word journey. I really don't like that word. It's such a personal, it's such a I'm going to use the word journey. I really don't like that word. It's such a personal journey. The person that you decide to go into therapy with. It needs to be a 200% fit and I always offer a phone call beforehand because A I need to know if that person, if I can help that person and support them. But also the client needs to feel that connection because it's energy. It's energy as well. So you have to feel that connection with that practitioner.
Speaker 2:And the reason I believe people I don't know you should or need either consider talking to someone is because there is great benefit in talking to someone who's completely emotionally removed from everyone and everyone in your life. So you and I can, I can talk to you about my experience with my dad, but you're going to come from, you'll hold space as a friend for me, which is lovely but having and you know we could sit there and cry together and you could share your experiences of your nan and that would be a really beautiful place to be. But when you're navigating grief, grief it needs to be someone who can hold the space, who won't drop down into that deep empathy with you. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, because if it's me and you, I'm then going to be conscious about holding space for you and and your experience with your nan. But actually what I need is someone to just hold the space and and let me dive deep into that whole memory- yeah, like a like, almost guide you through it yeah, hold your hand, that's how I say it.
Speaker 2:I just stand beside you. Yeah, stand beside you, but when you drop in, I'll still be standing because I need to help you back up, rather than us two, you know, in a friendship chat going down together. Yeah, time and a place? Absolutely yeah, but when you're sifting through and need to move through grief, it's really important to have someone who is emotionally removed from you and your family yeah, and as a um, as we come to a close, as a um, do you just not just, but call yourself a counsellor yes yeah.
Speaker 1:So, as a counsellor, what are your aspirations like? When it comes to like what? What do you feel um draws you towards doing this? Is there like a bigger vision? Is it like a simple, like you know, job? I don't. I don't feel like it is no, it's not a job.
Speaker 2:Um, it's interesting. I've never I've never woken up on a Monday thinking, oh shit, I've got to go to work. Yeah, um, it's on a Monday thinking, oh shit, I've got to go to work. Yeah, it's. I just love people. That sounds really cheesy. I just love people and I love hearing people's stories and experiences and understanding again back to that understanding human behaviour and why we act and do certain things and what can shape that. And unresolved things can shape that or or not experienced things can shape that.
Speaker 2:And everyone, nadine, everyone has got a story and you know that from what you do working one-on-one with people. And we are all and I will say this, we are all quick to judge at times. We are, it's in all of us. Yeah, but if you just take 60 seconds to listen to someone, after you say, how are you? And you really mean that question, not as a hi, how are you going, but how are you you will learn so much from others and everyone's so busy these days with their life and it's like we don't have time. But we do have time. You make time, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interestingly, something popped up for me just then. But it's when we do judge they can be kind of like nuggets for our own personal reflection, right, shadow work. Yeah, like nuggets for our own personal reflection, right, shadow work. Yeah, kind of. So. Yeah, like that can be a really uh insight. Give us insights into, like why do I feel or think that way, like what's going on there for me, let's? And then ask yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the awareness of that, yeah, yeah, and that's what work does. That's what, speaking to a therapist whether it be a cancer, psychologist or it sort of sets up your antennas again. I describe as it's up your antennas again to then, in an, in a interaction down at the grocery store, at the local market, something happens and you feel a sensation in your body. Oh, delve into that. Yeah, yeah, what did that happen? Why did I feel that?
Speaker 1:Getting to know yourself again, peeling back the layers, yeah, yeah, what would someone walk away with after a period of counseling, like, do you aim to like help, give them a different perspective, or do you give them tools and strategies?
Speaker 2:yeah, definitely tools and strategies. And also, I think there is a big element in all of us of getting reacquainted with the self-worth and self-love we get lost. We get lost in life, of course. So much going on, of course, so much going on, um, but but doing the work is I just see it as it's just really simple. Doing the work is getting to know yourself again, yeah, yeah, and what comes with that is a beautiful, uh, feeling of self-worth and self-love. Actually, I'm not too bad, you know, yeah, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm doing all right. Yeah, we all have shit and we all have stuff, and no one's perfect, but if you can do self-work, that is, it's just commendable.
Speaker 1:It's commendable, yeah right, we're going to share all of your details in the show notes. Is there anything um that you would like to tell us about your counselling business? Um, before we close our conversation no, I offer.
Speaker 2:I do offer remote sessions, as I've mentioned before on Zoom. It's a personal thing. Obviously, some people like being in the physical room with someone, so I'm up on the Northern Rivers but I just urge everyone to, if they feel, if they have been thinking about speaking to someone, then do so. Yeah, because it can do no harm. And if that person, if you don't gel with that person, then find someone that you do gel with because it's it's so important for self-growth and self-healing right.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm sorry there was a little bit of a technical issue earlier on, but we've seemed to have sorted it. It's been um a joy with you, jules, thank you. Thank you, I'll see you soon. Thank you, bye.