Navigating the intricate dance of life and environmental stewardship, Bindi Robertson joins me to share her compelling narrative. As a mother and a sustainability specialist, Bindi imparts how her personal and professional worlds collide, creating a rich and dynamic tapestry. The conversation flows from the importance of living by one's values to the joy she experiences in involving her family in her environmentally focused adventures. Her approach casts a hopeful light on the challenges we face, advocating for action and learning through every stage of life.
This episode also takes a closer look at the technological leaps in animal tracking research. Bindi's insights into the delicate balance of conducting this important ecological work, against the backdrop of personal milestones like motherhood, offer a refreshing perspective on professional growth.
We share in the revelations that come with observing animal behaviour and the less invasive methods now used, and reflect on how these advancements can shape conservation strategies moving forward.
As we shift gears, we examine the complex web of individual actions, corporate sustainability measures, and the stark realities of climate change. The discussion navigates through the nuances of renewable energy, the impact of lifestyle changes, and the heavy shadow cast by air travel on our carbon footprint.
Bindi and I underscore the significance of creating memories that last a lifetime, the very personal journey through loss, and the quest to balance passion with the practicalities of daily life.
The episode wraps up with a powerful reminder that although the challenge of climate change is immense, every step we take is a stride toward a healthier planet.
Bindi Robertson feels like she was put on this planet to do, see, and learn everything. After getting a degree in Business in Economics whilst playing tennis on scholarship at an American university, she developed a deep concern for the state of the planet, which lead to a PhD in Natural Resource Management. After becoming a mum at 36 to two daughters, she stayed home to raise them, using the time, along with her husband, to travel the world with them and take them on lots of hiking, cycling and skiing outdoor adventures. There was also lots of time spent grappling with how to return to the work force and how to contribute positively to the world going forward. This led to a slight ‘pivot’ from conservation to the completion of a Masters in Climate Change Science and Policy, and work within the corporate world of voluntary emissions reduction. Now, turning 50, the grappling continues, with how to contribute positively, balance family life, and, how to prioritise personal wellness.
Navigating the intricate dance of life and environmental stewardship, Bindi Robertson joins me to share her compelling narrative. As a mother and a sustainability specialist, Bindi imparts how her personal and professional worlds collide, creating a rich and dynamic tapestry. The conversation flows from the importance of living by one's values to the joy she experiences in involving her family in her environmentally focused adventures. Her approach casts a hopeful light on the challenges we face, advocating for action and learning through every stage of life.
This episode also takes a closer look at the technological leaps in animal tracking research. Bindi's insights into the delicate balance of conducting this important ecological work, against the backdrop of personal milestones like motherhood, offer a refreshing perspective on professional growth.
We share in the revelations that come with observing animal behaviour and the less invasive methods now used, and reflect on how these advancements can shape conservation strategies moving forward.
As we shift gears, we examine the complex web of individual actions, corporate sustainability measures, and the stark realities of climate change. The discussion navigates through the nuances of renewable energy, the impact of lifestyle changes, and the heavy shadow cast by air travel on our carbon footprint.
Bindi and I underscore the significance of creating memories that last a lifetime, the very personal journey through loss, and the quest to balance passion with the practicalities of daily life.
The episode wraps up with a powerful reminder that although the challenge of climate change is immense, every step we take is a stride toward a healthier planet.
Bindi Robertson feels like she was put on this planet to do, see, and learn everything. After getting a degree in Business in Economics whilst playing tennis on scholarship at an American university, she developed a deep concern for the state of the planet, which lead to a PhD in Natural Resource Management. After becoming a mum at 36 to two daughters, she stayed home to raise them, using the time, along with her husband, to travel the world with them and take them on lots of hiking, cycling and skiing outdoor adventures. There was also lots of time spent grappling with how to return to the work force and how to contribute positively to the world going forward. This led to a slight ‘pivot’ from conservation to the completion of a Masters in Climate Change Science and Policy, and work within the corporate world of voluntary emissions reduction. Now, turning 50, the grappling continues, with how to contribute positively, balance family life, and, how to prioritise personal wellness.
hello, hello. It's Nadine here, and I'm here with this week's episode of life, health and the universe, and I'm joined by my guest today and I've done it again. Bindi Robertson, I think your maiden name's Thomas. It's not the other way around, is it?
Speaker 2:yes no. Thomas is made a name. Yeah, cool so.
Speaker 1:I've got this bad habit of forgetting to clarify pronunciations and pronunciations and name information. Bindi Robertson, thank you for joining me today, bindi. No worries, we've flagged that there may be some kind of little bit of delay or glitchiness with the Internet, so keeping our fingers crossed that all flows OK, but just for the listeners, if there does seem to be a little bit of pause, that could be why. So let me do a quick intro of you, bindi, and then I'm going to hand over to you and I'll kind of let the listeners know how we came to be in this conversation together, how our paths have crossed. So where do I start? I'm going to start with motherhood, because it's a pretty damn important role that we play in this life and sometimes we forget how important it is.
Speaker 1:So you're a mum of two girls, living in New Zealand, as I said, and you are. Well, what will we say? You're a sustainability specialist. That's one of the things you do, I believe. You've been associate lecturer on natural resource policy. You've got a PhD in natural resource management. You've got a master's of climate change. These are all super important things. You know topics. You've got a strong desire to contribute to conservation. So you know, they're just some of the top ones that I picked out of the huge list of things that you've done over your lifetime so far. And yeah, you've traveled. You're a tennis player. What else can I say?
Speaker 1:You've done a whole bunch of things in you know, a relatively short time in your life, and here we are today. We're going to talk about a few of those things. I'm sure you know. Number one could potentially be climate change, change, sustainability, those sorts of things, because they're things that hot topics in the world today. Um, but like keen to to learn more about you and all of the things that you do, so, before I ramble anymore, welcome. Thank you so much for accepting the invitation to join me today and, and let me hand over to you, give us an intro of you, bindi Robertson, as you see yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh, when I hear it all sort of read back to me, the word that comes to mind is quite chaotic but, yeah.
Speaker 2:So hearing it all like that is quite interesting to me and this is really interesting process. Um, this whole podcast for me to kind of reflect on everything because, you know, trying to make make sense of the decisions you make, sometimes with what you do with your life and how then it all fits together and, um, yeah, is quite a cool process. I think I've always just been someone who really just wants to see everything, kind of learn everything and eke out every opportunity that life throws. And sometimes that means sort of making quick decisions, not sort of super quick bad decisions, but having to kind of make some big decisions about um, changes and stuff to take advantage of an opportunity, um and yeah. So I think I think I kind of open to all of that stuff all the time and it's just led me on a path of um, as I mentioned, it may be on my CV, looks quite chaotic but can actually be a bit of a curse at times. But I think I feel like it's a really nice way to live. But yeah, you're never quite sure of the decisions you make, I suppose, and the directions you go in. But yeah, if you stick to your kind of life ethos, I think you really can't go wrong in that respect.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, as a general background of my thoughts on all of that stuff that I've done, I think it really comes down to my hunger for seeing and learning and experiencing and, yeah, and now taking my girls on that journey and my husband bless him um, I think if we hadn't got together probably would have gone home after work every night, sat on a sofa and ate pizza, but instead he was smart enough to never say no to my ideas and he's always been supportive. So, yeah, they've come along now on this sort of journey with me. So that's quite fantastic actually. I look back on it so far and super pleased with all those decisions. But, yeah, there is the serious side of, I guess, some of the things that I've studied and looked at in quite heavy topics, with conservation and with climate change and all of those, um, as you say, quite hot topics at the moment, so happy to talk about. Yeah, any of that stuff, or elaborate on on those things yeah, cool, um, yeah, so thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1:Let the I'll give the listeners a little bit of a uh like insight into how we came across one another. Um, so one of my personal training clients, um, is a very good friend of yours and um, she knows that I've been doing the podcast for a while and she said, oh, you must talk to Bindi, she's done all of this amazing work. Um, in conservation, you know, she saved the albatross so you'll be able to tell us a bit.
Speaker 1:I always laugh at hearing her recollection, yeah, um yeah, just, you know, you've done as I said um in my intro. You've traveled, and, and you know, and you've also touched on the fact that now you're bringing your, your girls, into it and your husband's come along for the ride as well, um, so, yeah it, um, I'm really looking forward to this conversation and and um, you've given us a great intro and lots of different directions we could go in already. Um, I would. I didn't think that your, your, um life looked chaotic at all. Isn't it funny how we have these perceptions of ourselves?
Speaker 1:Maybe it's because, the way I read it out didn't seem like it was in very good order. I was just like these are some of the things that popped out to me. I'm like this is really to me impressive. This is really like to me impressive. And I think that, uh, and I think we touched on this when we first started making uh, uh, you know plans to to have this call um, you were like, oh, I don't really know if I've got very much to talk about. When you said that through, I was like I don't know if an hour is going to be long enough. Yeah, that's interesting, like three episodes or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's very sweet of you to say and I guess yeah, I don't know why um, I guess you just for me, I just you just do something and then you kind of move on to the next thing and, um, but certainly, as you mentioned, um, our mutual friend Narelle, who's a very, very good friend of mine and in fact I think she's probably one of the few people in this world who, who don't annoy me.
Speaker 2:She's just such a rock solid person and I've known her for so long now, we've just had so many good times, so, um, but always hearing her recollection of of the things I've done is quite amusing, because she doesn't always get it right but she certainly tries. But yeah, that was at a time, I guess straight out of high school, where we met at college and at university and we were on the same tennis team and we had we didn't first time we'd met and we were having a team meeting sort of at the table with the coach and the other players and stuff, and someone said something at the table and me and Nama were the only ones that laughed and we really barely laughed, the two of us and no one else did, and I think that was just how our friendship started.
Speaker 2:Um, and so that was then years of, um, yeah, living that experience together in the states and and doing the sporty thing. Um, and then for me coming back and trying to figure out because I guess when sports dominate sometimes you can sometimes get a bit derailed on kind of what your I guess real future should be like. I don't mean real future to minimise sports, but for me it was going to end at college, so I really needed to figure out what the next stage was. And I had done a degree in business and economics and I'd been to see the tutor and asked him what could I do with this once I had finished. I talked to him for an hour and he came out none the wiser. So I kind of didn't know how to apply what my degree was.
Speaker 2:So I found myself back in New Zealand and then started doing some post-grad things to sort of start refining maybe what my future could look like, and then started developing a really strong interest in conservation and the environment and kind of ended off going off in that direction. Met an amazing professor at Massey University who got me on the right track of doing my PhD, incredibly supportive man who just found my passions and let me turn that into something to study. But really that's what really captures me and I think that's actually what's really special about a lot of research is people get to really hone in on something small and what their passions are and, just you know, learn a lot about it. So yeah, so then I found myself sort of going from the tennis thing swinging into, I guess, academia in that way and in South Africa darting elephants Wow, in Darwin, australia had four, four case studies.
Speaker 2:It was the African elephant in South Africa in Kruger National Park, um, and then the Australian crocodile in Darwin. So we went out in the boat and captured a crocodile to attach a tracker to, and then it was a New Zealand falcon, um, and then the northern royal albatross is what Narelle talks about in south of New Zealand. So, um, that was really all about learning about the tracking technology and how it can help conserve species. So, yeah, sort of found myself, found myself there. How does that?
Speaker 1:all work when you so, when you do a PhD and you go like you've mentioned that you went to, like multiple different countries, you're darting animals, you're putting tracking devices on them. How does that all work from a logistics point of view when you're essentially a student?
Speaker 2:Is there a group of?
Speaker 2:you that are all interested in the same thing and you all kind of like well, it's a great question for funding to do it like, how does it all work? There is a lot of funding required for those sorts of things. Um, and it seemed that there was enough funding for those sorts of things. My professor, as I mentioned, who was an amazing man, he seemed to have a real knack for finding funding for these things and he was all he's South African himself, so he was always involved in in the projects. He was always with me. We did, we did them all together, um, but yeah, there is a lot of um, a lot of funding required and a lot of setup.
Speaker 2:There were four different case studies in four different countries on four different species. So you have to kind of little. Each of those involved little projects in themselves to make sure the ethics were covered and all the right people were involved and you know you kind of weren't stepping on anyone's toes in their own country and things like that. So, um, yeah, there's a fair bit involved. But certainly the funding is fundamental to it all and in fact you know it would have been better if we had more funding. We could have got a bigger sample size on all of these things. But the funding is the limitation sometimes and oftentimes with research, I guess and that you can only do as much as the money allows. So yeah, it's definitely a thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so can you talk us through like a bit about what you did and how long it took and what the outcomes were when it came to this research?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it was basically I think I'll just sort of mention it was to assess the satellite tracking technology which was just emerging at the time. So being able to track animals and wildlife and inhospitable environments from from your, from your desk, essentially being able to track where they go and what they do, without having to get out there in the field, um, and, you know, be exposed to the dangers of it or the harshness of it or the expense of it. Um, all this field work, um, it was kind of starting to become this technology that could actually provide a lot of information on these species at little cost and little effort in that respect and that's not to discount how important fieldwork is, because it certainly is. So, yeah, it was, all the different species required different types of tracking technology because they were different sized animals and they had different, like the birds as opposed to a crocodile, you've got to fit, you know, a little harness on a bird or the crocodile, you've kind of got to attach it to the back of the neck and for the elephant it's a big collar around its neck and they. And the albatross was attached just just by the wings as well, not just similar to the falcon. But, um, yeah, just understanding all of all of the different needs of the different species and then just really trying to see is this actually going to add some value or is it just a fun toy? Um, and so in the end, uh, the sort of outcomes of it were that, um, we basically got all the individual ecological information on each individual animal so we could learn individually about where they go, what they do and how best to protect them.
Speaker 2:So that was kind of the basic outcome of the basic practical outcome of the research is, you know, we could see the albatross were crossing the ocean and they were interacting with fishing boats at this certain time of day and that's often where you know they get caught as bycatch and stuff. So, understanding how maybe those routes can change and that sort of thing, um, it also sort of highlighted that it was actually a really good tool for involving um people because they could visually see where these animals were going and a couple of the case studies I did. I had a website and I would put the results on there for people to follow where the crocodile was going in Darwin or where the albatross were across the Southern Ocean and where they ended up and all that sort of thing Actually for schools and classrooms and that kind of thing. It actually got quite a bit of, quite a few bit of following from all of that.
Speaker 2:So you know, the technology kind of provided us with that um, but there are some downsides to it. It's pretty invasive, you know. To attach, you try and do it as ethically as you can but in the end attach it. Attaching a device to an animal, and especially a bird who needs to fly, you have to be very careful that it's not going to actually affect its behavior. That's a big deal to me and a big deal to a lot of, a lot of people doing that kind of research.
Speaker 2:Um, and also, I guess now you know I sort of finished it 10 years ago. So now the technology is changing and everything's just becoming smaller. It used to be a compromise between battery power and number of readings you wanted to get, but now everything's miniaturized and it's almost like they're doing mass tracking of of animals now. And you know, I guess at some point you kind of hope that maybe they've got enough information you can stop tracking them and just just really learn what we've learned from now and collaborate all the information together so that there's no repetition, and tracking the animals because, as I say, it's quite invasive, um, but yeah, that's kind of the general gist of of that, um, that research. So, um, yeah, we got some really good outcomes from it and, um, it was, it was. I had a lot of fun doing it as well. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What did you like? Yeah, what did you enjoy most about it? Like when you say you had a lot of fun out of it, is it like what the animals do Like? Are there surprises? Was it unexpected what you enjoyed about it? Or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wasn't sure what to expect about the whole thing. I mean, I love working independently and a lot of it was working independently. Um, I would just go down to the local library cafe with my computer and do my work there and, you know, sort of meet up with people every now and again as I needed to. But but mostly, yeah, it was, um, it was going on the field trips and being able to see these, these animals, and where they live and really get an understanding of their environment because, as I say, the field work is important.
Speaker 2:But yeah, a lot of them did some really unique things and things that especially the albatross, like no one attract any juveniles from their nest ever, and so to see where a juvenile goes from the first time it leaves its nest was super exciting. And you know, we were watching. Like every day I'd go to download the information, I'd be like, oh, where's it going to be, and you know that's essentially why I had the website for others to follow that sort of thing as well. Um, so, yeah, that that was.
Speaker 1:It was just interesting, interesting stuff, yeah so once you'd finished your, how long did that go for that research? Was it quite a few years? So that was probably.
Speaker 2:I think I did two years part-time and then about two and a half years full-time, so it was about four and a half years by the time I'd submitted and got it all finished and the thesis was essentially six published papers all put together into the thesis. So I'd already, at the time of submission of the thesis, had already published my papers. Sometimes people publish their thesis and then they go on to turn those theses into published papers, but I just went like a bullet again. I guess I just did it all beforehand. So it was all done in a nice tidy package on submission of my thesis, which makes it easier for marking, because if your, your markers of your thesis, know it's already been out there and peer reviewed, the whole process becomes quicker. Um, it's sort of more legitimized if you've already, if you hand in a thesis of published papers, yeah, as opposed to just your own writing, um. So I think it was sort of four to five years, I'd say, of work on that and were you, how old are your girls?
Speaker 2:So they're 11 and 13. So were you pregnant when you? So I got pregnant six months before I submitted my research? Oh, wow, yeah, my supervisor just always used to just talk about how incredibly organized I was and I think I was, but then then to sort of time the pregnancy so well, like I, you know it wasn't time, it wasn't like it wasn't planned like that, um, but I, yeah, I submitted, had her six months later, but then I, then I did the defense of it when she was six months old. So you defend your research at some point. Once they marked it, um, okay, so she was six months when I did that. So, yeah, so, um, and then, yeah, so that I think that was the timeline, um, so, yeah, I, I sort of timed it, yeah, I guess when I was just finishing, and I can't imagine having done it like some people do try and do those things with small babies. So, 11 and 13.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is that what you?
Speaker 2:said they were 11 13.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, did you. You finished your PhD, had a baby six months later, so did that mean that you kind of were on hold then? Yes so it kind of like you're on a bit of a roll with your education and yeah, and writing a PhD paper and and, yeah, your thesis and and then motherhood, yes, yeah. So I was in the direction you were kind of see.
Speaker 2:That's interesting because I remember not really having a plan for motherhood. I just kind of felt like I'll see how I feel and how it's going, um, and so, yeah, I was 36 when I had her, so I sort of knew that it was sort of, you know, getting to the tail end of, I guess, what they call. You know what are they called Turn of age, yeah, old age, pregnancy, whatever they call that. Yeah, I have one of them. I have two of them actually. Yeah, I did, and so my second one was at 38.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, I and yeah, um, so yeah, I really just had her, I I submitted and then defended, and then, and then it just, I just felt, fell in love with her and my time with her was me and her against the world, you know. And so we were in this little bubble and I just couldn't have imagined unless I had had, unless I really had to just having having not been focused on her at that time and then, I guess, having the next one. You know, you sort of doubly feel that way, but I always had in the back of my mind you know, what am I going to do? How long can I wait, or if I do wait too long, will I be able to get back in it? Will time have changed? Will the technology have changed? You know that that those sorts of thoughts went through my head constantly whilst I was trying, you know, to enjoy motherhood, um.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's a really difficult one. It's a great question because, yeah, how do you balance it, um, how can you give everything to both sides? I don't know how people do do it, people must. I don't know if I could have um, so I did kind of have to do one or the other for just for a period anyway, um, but I did. I can never sit still long enough, so I did do lots of things that you know, that kindy, and oh, yeah, still mark. There was one paper I marked through Massey, and you know I was always trying to read stuff to keep up to date on things. But in the end, yeah, if you're not in the paid work, you kind of do fall behind, and that's just kind of what I had to accept, I suppose. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a tough one, isn't it? Because you kind of you're, because doing all of the stuff that you were doing, um, before kids, it's all very much about your personal interest, your personal journey, and so motherhood is exactly that as well. It's you're, you, like you, you're going through a massive personal journey when you become a mother, but, um, but you're giving you. You're basically giving you. Okay, yeah, I don't want to say giving up, but it can feel a bit like that. You kind of have to surrender to the fact that you are no longer just for you, or something yeah, it's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Quite find the words for it, but I know and.
Speaker 2:I'm. It's interesting that you're struggling to find the words for it, because I do too like you don't want to. How do you, how do you articulate, how do you articulate, um, that choice to your children without them feeling like you gave something up, you know, for them? I don't know how, I don't know. I still don't know the words to use. I think I said something once to someone about it. My daughter was in earshot and she was like, oh, you know, she was a little bit like you know, like hurt by what I said. I certainly didn't intend that, but I felt like, geez, I have to really choose my words here for this, for talking about this situation, because it is, it is you do give up yourself, and that is just parenthood, I suppose.
Speaker 1:But how do you? It's a bit of a shock, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, because you can't, I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm just turned 50 last week right me, I'm me like three months ago so I had my kids um 40 and 42 I was yeah they're right, yeah, okay, yeah right.
Speaker 1:So eight and nine now yeah, so I mean, you know, all of this stuff. But it's like you kind of, I think, because you know having babies and reproducing the species is kind of like what we're here to do. So you just assume that everything's going to be okay and everything generally is okay. But like there's no preparation for, like you're not, going to know who the hell you are anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you're gonna have to do about all of that. Yeah, yeah, and the longer you do stay at home, you do you do lose confidence to a certain degree. I don't know why that happens. Um, and you do guess, second guess yourself and and you sort of maybe, especially you're at home with, and you sort of maybe, especially if you're at home with kids, you sort of become a bit of a hermit and you're like, oh, I'm just like a shell of myself, I guess, in some ways.
Speaker 1:When you've been a massive go-getter, traveling around the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I loved it. They're beautiful moments like no regrets.
Speaker 1:But it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a tricky thing to, first of all, process and, secondly, articulate to your children.
Speaker 1:Like you know, how would I tell them about that time of my life and make them appreciate what you do do, but not lay it on too thick, and you know, it's's um yeah, I've been wondering recently, um, just with all this kind of stuff, like, well, firstly, I, I part of me, like I, I know that motherhood is kind of underrated, right, it's not, it's not in. In today's society it's not really seen as enough to just be a mum, so that can be difficult. So we're kind of seeking like, yes, who am I outside of motherhood? Because motherhood is not enough, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Like I wonder if there's a people have children when they're younger, what like how that could be different, because they're coming out the other side and their kids, you know. For I mean we've got friends who've got kids who are going into their teens and, you know, early twenties, kind of thing. Yeah um early 20s kind of thing. Yeah, what's it like for them coming out? The other side when they've had their youth kind of taken up with parents, right, right.
Speaker 2:I wonder how that might be different yeah, the younger versus the older parental experience? Yeah, definitely, um, but I know for me I was not ready to have kids a second earlier than 36.
Speaker 1:Oh, no way.
Speaker 2:And I was prepared for the prospect, I might not be able to have them by the time I decide I was ready and I was okay, I'd made peace with that. But then I guess you know, sometimes you don't have a choice about when it happens. Or sometimes some people are just like I just want to be a mum as early as possible, and that's cool too, because, yeah, this just must be a different experience. Um, however you do it, um, yeah, because, yeah, because, as you say, like I'm turning 50, now you're, you're, you're 50, and then that brings, like you know, the whole other top, the whole menopausal topic. Oh yeah, and like how does that fit in with raising children?
Speaker 2:Because someone said to me a while a couple of weeks ago. They said that that's possibly one of the reasons why having kids at an older age it can be, can be tricky. It's because you kind of have to go through that menopause with them still quite young and susceptible, you know, which may or may not be a bad thing, because kids are resilient and all that stuff. But yeah, like they kind of like my mum, I would have been well left the house by the time she went through menopause and was sort of trying to figure those things out for herself. Some people are worse, some people it doesn't bother at all, but for some, yeah, it is a thing and it can affect their lives for a period of time. Um, but again, yeah, who knows what the right, what the right time to have a kid is really so personal totally yeah, and like you said, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't weren't ready like a minute before.
Speaker 2:No, yeah.
Speaker 1:Quite, literally six months actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh, it would throw me right off, right off my X's, yeah, but I guess you cope and you deal with it and yeah, all that stuff, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So how about, like once, you'd had your two babes? When did you so? There was a point where you were like, right, I've got to get back into some of this stuff. When did that happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was happening the whole way through, but it got louder in my head when they started school, for sure.
Speaker 2:And that's when I sort of thought right, I've got to reread everything here that I've learned and see where the technology's at and has it changed in the last five years, or I mean six years by the time my second daughter started school. Has it, you know? Has it changed? How can I get back in and in what way can I get in? So I sort of spent some time while they were at school like relearning it all and maybe doing a few refresher courses on the, on the technology and things like that, um, and then you know, just sort of sort of thought well, maybe I'll do some consulting and I'll go, because I had done a little bit of that before kids, maybe I'll get back into doing that. And I, as I, as I looked and I learned more about it and just noticed that there's just some big conglomerates out there that are just tracking everything with these tiny, tiny transmitters and there's. You know, they've just kind of got it covered. Now technology has has changed, and I don't know what more I could add short of, I guess, working for one of those places perhaps.
Speaker 2:Um, but it was kind of, as I was looking into all of that, I sort of started, you know, the whole climate change thing started weighing down on me and I'm like, but that's a big overarching problem. If climate change isn't sorted, the species won't matter. So I started sort of being drawn to kind of how can I pivot a little bit into this climate change world? Because that seemed like the most pressing issue, if I mean, gosh conservation, wildlife is still pressing, but, um, that seemed like to me the overarching issue. So I was just like how can I be the most useful? How can I get back in there? Um, and, yeah, be as useful as possible. And so that's. I kind of went on. Have you heard of earth watch? Um, yeah, it's like a yeah, so I did a couple of those and you go and you um volunteer in a research capacity for different, yeah, different, um, different projects around the world.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of you do a bit of a travel one. A travel. It's a travel experience as well. But you know, and I thought I'll just do a couple of these to kind of get myself back out there in the world talking to scientists and researchers and stuff and and enjoying a bit of travel. They were only two weeks long each um, so I did a few of those and came out at the end going, yeah, definitely climate change.
Speaker 2:And that's when I signed up and did a did of a pivot. And it was a year-long master's course at Vic University here in Wellington which was just perfect. I couldn't have done two years. I thought that's too long, I've done enough, but one year I can do and then that. So I did that. And then that translated into a job for 18 months after that which was in renewable energy and sort of the corporate, voluntary side of climate change. So, yeah, just thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed learning about it all, getting all the information for myself and not just hearing all around me what's going on, and then, yeah, turning it into a job that I really did enjoy. So, yeah, I sort of feel like it went along that line. I call it yeah, most people call it a bit of a pivot. It was a bit of a pivot. So, yeah, I just that's kind of where it ended up, did you say that you were working for corporate.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the job I got just after that master's was it's in the corporate, voluntary world, so not to do with government compliance, but the voluntary world on climate action. So how are corporates? What action are they taking which, as I say, is voluntary, they're not required to yet. Oh yeah, and what does that look like and how are they doing it? And so the company I worked for offer. It was a market-based mechanism, product not dissimilar to an offset, but it was a. It was to do with specifically renewable energy, so they could buy clean energy, know that it's not being double counted, know that it's being as much as it could possibly be, and given to them and, within their carbon accounting records, they can deduct or can contribute to. You know the goals that they have, which are often, you know the zero carbon by 2050 or all of those things.
Speaker 2:So it's, you know, it can be a bit controversial because some people think it's just doesn't, it's not really what it says, it is and it's. You know, there are issues with offsets and that sort of thing. So it was interesting to be in an environment where it was controversial, which, you know, I'm such a bit of a purist. It kind of challenged me in having to defend it all the time, because I did believe that it was good and was doing some good.
Speaker 2:Yeah that was an interesting dynamic, I thought. But there's a lot of good stuff going on in the corporate world. There really is, and I was quite surprised by that. So that was yeah, that was positive. Yeah, yeah, so that was yeah, that was positive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So we hear in the news you know that us, like general populations, not the corporates, but just us living our everyday lives as parents or you know whatever we're doing. We hear about climate change, we hear about global warming, warming, the changes in weather patterns, uh, we hear about, like, carbon footprint and, um, um, it can feel a little bit confusing. Yes, absolutely, and overwhelming, yes, and it doesn.
Speaker 1:I mean, and there's this whole stuff with, you know, farmers and emissions and that sort of stuff. Yeah, it's like, what choices do we make? Yeah, but I think what can happen is that we kind of go it's too big to even make any decisions about this.
Speaker 2:And so not do anything?
Speaker 1:because we don't, because we don't feel empowered to make choices that we, that we feel might have a positive impact. What would you say as a lot? What would you say are the biggest things that we could do and what do you say are the biggest things that we could do? What do you do in your lifestyle to reduce your impact?
Speaker 2:I guess yeah. So I guess you know, just as a starting point, it's an incredibly complex issue.
Speaker 2:Like people talk about it and liken it to trying to change out the engine of a plane while it's still flying, you know, like really complex decisions, not mostly because they are financial decisions and people struggle with that, but also it is all behavior, like it's like almost like the most complex issue that we will have to solve.
Speaker 2:Um, and so you know there are, there are words floating around and people you know reading different things and I it's absolutely so confusing. That was one of the reasons I wanted to go and learn for myself, um, how, how these things work. Um, but I mean the nuts and bolts of it really in terms of people's daily lives, from, from my understanding and from, like, I calculated all our emissions as a family last year on our holiday, like everything we did as much as I could possibly do that, and you just cannot get past the fact. No matter what you kind of do with you know you can reduce your meat intake, you can reduce your dairy intake, you can change to renewable energy or minimize your energy use. You can, you know, drive an electric car, given if the grid is, you know, good enough, that makes a difference.
Speaker 2:Um, you just basically can, can try and move less and buy less things is kind of the general just, but no matter what you do, yeah, but no matter what you do with all of that stuff, if flying on an airplane just blows it all out of the water. So all those, all those changes you can make, which are really good anyway and do make a difference they pale in comparison to jumping on a flight somewhere in this day and age where we haven't got sustainable fuels yet or we haven't got hydrogen planes or those kinds of things which are coming, but you know then they're not there yet. Um, no matter what, why? I looked at our emissions, like the flight emissions just blew everything out of the water all the time, and there's no way around it other than to fly less and to really think about your flying. And if you have to do it, that's all good, but if you don't have to do it, maybe try not to, and none of us are going to get it right all the time.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that that's. That's basically the general gist of of kind of what people can do in their daily lives. The other I mean the other thing which is effective is, um, informing yourself as much as you can and pushing the political people where you can. You know that's effective too. Um, so yeah, but again, you know all of those things are not easy for people to do. You know people get comfortable in their lives and um, you know, if you have the resource to travel, you know how do you stop. You know people get comfortable in their lives and um, you know, if you have the resource to travel, you know how do you stop. You know, stop yourself doing that.
Speaker 1:Um, so it's tricky, but um, yeah, yeah it's kind of it's like mixed messaging as well, isn't it? It's like you know, if you you've kind of said that you know flying is one of the biggest, or the biggest as far as you can, can see um like from from your perspective and your experience, and we know this, yeah, but you're still allowed to fly no one's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know mixed message.
Speaker 1:They're still like yeah I know, I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's all these Airlines need to you know, yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:And then they try and sell you cheap airfares If it was really bad for you.
Speaker 1:Surely the government would cancel flying yeah and flying, because it was bad for the planet. If it's that bad, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of here, yeah, yeah, it's kind of here and lies the complexity of it really, because the economy too, and this is the real life, because I was a bit of an idealist and I I was exactly like what you said. I'm like let's just stop doing things. Let's just stop, stop, you know, even for a short period of time, like let our generation be the ones that take a hit, just for five years or something, you know. Just take a hit and let's all just stop. And you, you know, but if we stop, then the economy grinds to a halt.
Speaker 2:It's almost like we need to keep buying and keep moving to keep the economy going, which keeps, you know, social systems going, and it's a yeah, it's a really difficult one, because if you stop buying, then, yeah, it's a really difficult one. Yeah, because if you stop buying, then, yeah, then money stops being given to, you know, people for wages and you know that kind of thing. So I guess the only, you know, probably not the only hope, because that's not right, but it's really about businesses, about packaging, you know, I suppose packaging the products we buy better and putting them, if they have to be transported, putting them on systems that are renewable, use renewable fuels and you know it's almost like the whole system. If the big ticket items get dealt with in terms of transportation, um and yeah, and some production materials and all those kinds of things, then the impact of purchasing won't be as bad and stuff like that. So these things are definitely happening. It's just the timeframe of when they'll be done, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose, from a consumer point of view, having an awareness if it's something that concerned about, you're like well, I don't travel, right, yeah, um, so what else can I do or like if everyone else is still traveling, but it's like you can look in the supermarket and you can go.
Speaker 2:That produce is from spain yeah, I live in australia, so like if I don't buy it, and if people stop buying, it.
Speaker 1:Then the demand for it is going to reduce absolutely so they're the kinds of things that over time could have an impact, and it's the same with any produce. You can look at where it's from, where it's produced, where it's yeah, like you get jar you know jars that are made in or packet stuff that's made in thailand, like try and find stuff that's made in the in its cut in the country that you're buying it from um, yeah, absolutely those kind of things yeah, absolutely it's increasing our awareness, isn't it about those?
Speaker 1:things yeah, because the transportation of stuff is like a big, big one big one.
Speaker 2:All of those things come on ships and planes and all sorts of things. Yeah, and I guess you know it's interesting because I I was so hardcore about my kids walking to school and my kids you know me not being one of those parents who you know sitting in their SUV at three o'clock you know, like clogging the roads and all that.
Speaker 2:I was so hardcore about the poor things, um, and, and also me and my husband like biking into work, you know, really hardcore. But then when I got an electric car, I actually went oh, I can like, I'd me like, even I felt like I could relax on that stuff now, or a little bit. I mean, the grid here in new zealand is, you know, 90% renewable, so you know. But then there is still there's manufacturing emissions and building the car. There's no question about that. But given that that's already happened, um, yeah, so I guess that sort of links into the transportation thing that once those big ticket items start getting dealt with and you know the shipping is so they're inventing all kinds of things for those big ships with big sails and running on hydrogen and you know, and the planes will get sustainable aviation fuels at some point. I guess when they do those big things, then you know your orange coming from California you know, might be all right.
Speaker 2:You know it's not going to be the best. You could still should still buy locally, but it's not going to have the impact perhaps you know that it once had. And how will our purchasing decisions kind of change then again? And you know it's a continually evolving beast of things and we don't always know what's in the pipelines of technology and what's coming out. There are so many things on the cusp, I feel like, that aren't quite yet commercial, that are coming out, that are going to solve some big problems, that are fascinating things, that again, once we get all our behavioural decisions, we'll be set and then we'll have to kind of change. Well, we'll be able to kind of change them again. Perhaps, I don't know, we'll start from scratch again.
Speaker 1:I guess, like yeah, it's hard because, like I think, as human beings, we have innovation and, you know, creation and, and it's constant, but often there can be, like these, cycles of 10 years or 15 or 20 years and they go. Oh, actually that it's not an issue anymore or it's not an issue anymore. It's like, oh, it's not an issue anymore.
Speaker 1:Or oh, it's got this side effect that we didn't actually realise Right, yeah, that side, absolutely yeah, for sure, yeah it's like with processed foods, like it was all like yay TV dinners in the 80s, and then they're like oh, we've got a massive crisis on our hands with health sometimes we're smart, sometimes not so smart.
Speaker 1:We're too smart for our own good, I think yeah it seems to be what the case is a lot of the time interesting, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh, what was I gonna say, I guess, and we're kind of like we've been cracking on for 45 minutes and you've got a whole bunch of other stuff that you've done, including travel, which you touched on, like because you said that that was one of the things that you realized had a big impact, and it's like, you know, way up, yeah, yeah, um, but I'd love to talk to you just a bit, um, before you know we have to start closing about motherhood, traveling, um, and also like how you feel about the future of, of, uh, the planet as a mother of two young people. Yep, um, yeah, and then, and then maybe, like we talk about like, uh, you you mentioned in one your emails to me like you're not sure what you're going to do next, yeah, and like how you weigh up that you know, parenting health, your health and getting that balance right. So I would love to have a chat about that so I would love to have a chat about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I think what I was working in the renewable energy job and we as a family kind of always had in the back of our head you know another reasonably long trip somewhere and I think we were sitting in the hot tub for too long and the idea just formulated quite quickly over a half an hour and we were like oh really are we doing this and so, yeah, so we embarked on well, I had I finished up at that job, my husband finished at his job and yeah, and we embarked on the year away with the girls.
Speaker 2:They did online school, which is in New Zealand called Tikura, which is amazing online schooling that you can do even if you're traveling. So, as long as you're back within two years, you can just do this and it follows your class curriculum and you have a teacher and it was super well organized. So that was one of the reasons that we could do the travel, and also my oldest is starting high school this year. So we thought our window's closing on opportunity time to do this. So, yeah, let's just get out there and do it Like we felt comfortable out in the world. The idea was to do one return air ticket, to do it all on one ticket to Europe and back again and then in between do bus, train or other things like that. So that was the original plan. But when we got over there, my dad ended up getting diagnosed with pancreatic cancer while we were two months into the trip, which was awful for him terrible timing I'd been down the road like two hours down the road from him for the last two years and then, sorry, last 20 years, and then he got this diagnosis. So I came home by myself for two weeks in March to sort of figure out what was going on. We thought we had kind of till the end of the year. We thought it was kind of slow moving, but by um, by May, mid-may, he'd passed away. So then all of us came back again, so our whole I mean aside from you know the sort of sad occasion the whole emissions side of things just got thrown out the window in those circumstances. But basically, yeah, we, we loved skiing and we started in Canada, ended in Canada at both winter, winter times, and then in between was 10 months of just jumping around cheap Airbnbs in Europe and just finding the deals and really not having anywhere that we had to be. So that was amazing. The girls had just started playing tennis just before we left, so we went to a few places that had tennis academies so that they could still interact with kids and get some time away from us. But, um, yeah, super, super special time.
Speaker 2:But, as you probably know and so many others, traveling's not always glamorous, you know. There are times where it's really just moving days, a sweat day, and you just, you know, get your worst clothes on and you get in the suitcases out and you're getting down train. Yeah, such a drag, you know, onto get your worst clothes on and you're getting the suitcases out and you're getting down the train. Oh, yeah, such a drag, you know. Onto the train, off the train. You know, yeah, do we know where everything is?
Speaker 2:And so you know, yeah, and they're living out of the suitcase and you know, yeah, the travel side of it is certainly not glamorous, but the memories and the things the girls learned and the highlights on it for us was, um, yeah, I guess what I say to my husband is we're buying like old age insurance with all these memories. You know, like when you're sitting in a nursing home and you got, and your body stopped working, at least you can remember good times. You can go over and over in your head um, so, yeah, but it was lovely to be home. We got back to our animals. We had a house sitter looking after the animals and that worked out amazingly and yeah, so we're back home now, settling back in, um, and, yeah, just back into normal life now.
Speaker 2:So, um, I'm now trying to figure out yeah what my next move is, and you know that's a kind of an interesting topic, I guess, because I could very easily, and likely will very easily, get back into the sustainability thing. But I guess the thing that is just I'm just going to make sure I'm okay with is, as we talked about earlier, I've just turned 50, and working in the corporate world is inherently quite sedentary. You know, there's a lot of sitting for eight hours a day. I'm just trying to figure out how I can do that whilst actually needing to move probably more in my life, you know, to get through old age than I not ever have.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, really just trying to figure out if it's not better for me, yeah, to figure out to do something health-wise or to do, yeah, something different. But I don't want to give up on all the things that I feel passionate about. I love the headspace of the sustainability and climate change stuff, but the concept of sitting at a desk for eight hours a day, yeah, it just sort of makes my heart break a little bit especially when you've done stuff that's out in the field and you know, yeah, yeah that side of it yeah, it's a shame that, um, to do that kind of work and a lot of other work, um, you do have to sit all day like because that is just so unhealthy, as you know.
Speaker 2:You know that's your whole ethos, um, with everything you do, yeah, there has to be some kind of compromise, I suppose. But, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, just figuring all that stuff out, but I'd committed to to not working the first term. I'll get the girls settled back into life and school and, um, all that stuff.
Speaker 1:So, um, come the end of school holidays, which is end of october, um, I'll start making some decisions, some proper decisions yeah yeah, it's kind of um, it's kind of weird, like what is I don't know how to put it like there's, like there's this big global problem, yeah, but like you feel like you want to take physical action, right Right. Out there doing stuff, not sitting behind a desk talking about it. Yeah, yeah I know, or like theorizing about like what someone could do.
Speaker 2:It's like you want to be out there, kind of yeah you almost have to kind of take a bit of a hit advocate, physically and maybe mentally, to solve some of these problems. You know, like they inherently involve the heavy, heavy topics, um and and, just in a sedentary corporate world. That that's just the structure of it. I don't know if maybe the day could be broken up a two-hour work and then you have two hours off to go and, do you know, it's like big chunks of where the whole day is completely different.
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't know you could all stand on treadmills and create energy.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, All of that stuff, it's just, yeah, it's interesting and it's only really because as we've talked about a couple of times now turning 50, you do re-evaluate things and you do like I do want to. I'm in it for the long haul. I want to be mobile and active and healthy.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's finding that balance, I guess, tricky part um, when you so I'm just going to kind of start wrapping things up, but this, so this might not be the right question I did, I did mention, like, how do you feel with, um, climate change and the you know, with your kids all right, yeah, growing up but also, like, from a perspective of your own health, future, like, do you do you look at it from a from that kind of, you know, conservation point of view, where you're like there's a whole bunch of stuff that's happening to the planet, to the wildlife, right to the ecosystems, yeah, or um, so, or do you kind of go, how is this gonna impact me, like you've talked about, how can I help to improve my impact? But do you do, yeah, on the other side of it, think about how this, it could potentially impact you and your health and your family's health and their future and your future?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's interesting. I have I've worried about it for many years, like since. I mean you know there's people that have worried about it way longer than me, but I think I started worrying about it probably year 2000. Right, like starting to get really concerned about things and wildlife and climate change and sort of what led me to do the PhD and get involved in that. And then, you know, even within the Masters, eventually, I think for me the concern reached its peak at about I remember about 2018 to 2020.
Speaker 2:I kind of I got terrified by the concept of these massive global changes that can happen to with the ice sheets and with the you know, the water, the water currents and the you know all these tipping points that they talk about. I got really terrified and I felt super sad for a couple years. For my kids I was like what's their life going to be? Like what you know? Like it really took a toll on me, but then I think I think I came through it. My way of getting out of it was to learn about it, which is why I did the, the, the masters and I almost started. I think I almost like matured a little bit with my concern. I grieved for the earth in some way I think I must have. And then I just thought I just all I can do and I'm not going to solve this on my own because so many people working on it it's going to be. It's going to involve multiple solutions, multiple people to solve it um, not just me. I can only give what I can give.
Speaker 2:So I think I got to the point where I did start relaxing.
Speaker 2:I felt a bit more, I still wanted to work on it, but I felt a bit more philosophical, I suppose, about it, which was better for my health and better for me being around my kids, and I'm positive, I'm always positive with them about it, I tell them about it, but I finish with, like, but there's all these great things happening and and I truly believe that and I and I actually feel really positive it will figure this out. I'm glad I still feel positive, but I genuinely do and I just see a lot of good things happening. And you know, someone said once it only takes maybe two or three percent of the population to affect change and I think, think there's certainly 2% to 3% of the population that is behind this now, if not more, but there's just some really smart people doing some smart things, from what I can see and what I've read about. So I feel very positive and I'm pleased that the terror it had in me has kind of subsided, because that's not a healthy way to live.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and in the end you can only do what you can do, and that's just the reality of it, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, yeah yeah, it sounds like you're doing some pretty pretty special things in the world well, who knows, in the end I have to say like when I was um in my teens it was kind of at the beginning of the you know, you know recycle and all of that and I remember like I had stashed paper, everything was done, you know, on paper. Um, that, yeah, we didn't use computers very much back then for school and studying and I had a stash of paper to recycle in the bottom of my wardrobe in my bedroom, and my dad was like that you know what's the point in that? You know, waste of time, recycling just my pile of paper. Um, oh, what was I going to say? And I and I didn't have much hope, right, planet at that time in my life, like, I wasn't, like I certainly wasn't on a major downer about it, but I was a bit like this is, you know, yeah, the direction we're going in.
Speaker 1:And this was when I was 17, 18. Yeah, right, and I never wanted to have kids because I thought the world's pretty messed up. Yep, I'm not doing it, like, yeah. And then it was when I came into my um, you know the time of life, and, uh, I was in my late 30s and I started to think, we started to think about having kids, and I was like, well, yeah, the planet is in a bit of a mess. However, we could potentially be bringing the next generation in. Who are the change makers? Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And there's so much innovation, there's so much entrepreneurship. People are getting really creative about stuff. I've got a friend who is a futurologist wow and um, she did a little talk at the beginning of the year you know it was on instagram or whatever and she said that by oh, I think she said like by 2040. There are going to be like most of the jobs that exist have never even been done before.
Speaker 1:Right there's just this massive evolution massive change yeah, and so I kind of think you know our, our young generation, like if we can take care of ourselves a bit and take care of them and nurture them and, yeah, and you know, do the wonderful work like the sorts of things you're doing to educate them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can be the change makers absolutely it's actually amazing, as you say, um, for young people coming through, because they get to live in a world where you think out, you have to think outside the box, like nothing's off the table. They get to create, they get to innovate, they get to like there's no barriers to what they can think of to solve some of these problems and I mean that must be super exciting to be involved in. So that's really positive and fun future for them, in that respect anyway. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No pressure, just save the planet, will you?
Speaker 2:I often find myself saying to some kids who have you know, have some um, have some resource behind them, I'm like, well, it's good, because you'll be expected to solve some big problems. So excellent, let's just get on with it.
Speaker 1:I say that to kids all the time, yeah, yeah um, before we close anything else, you'd like to add any hot tips you want to give the listeners on? You know what we can do. I think you already mentioned some of the things that we can do in our everyday lives to help.
Speaker 2:Yeah I think it's. It's a good question. I think um, you know, as we talked about, you can only do what you can do on some of those basic daily life things, um, but you also don't forget you have the right to still live a happy life, whatever that is. You know, like you, you're allowed to do that I, for a long time, felt guilty um living life. Everything I did I felt guilty about, and you know um, and I felt to blame for this whole climate change. It started hundreds of years ago. You know, when we're not this generation is not to blame. Obviously there are things we can do better, but, yeah, don't, don't beat yourself up, but just do what you can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, that's a great note to finish on. Thank you so much for joining me. I've really loved meeting you. Finally, thank you. Yeah, good luck with whatever you plan on doing next.
Speaker 2:Thank you, you too.
Speaker 1:you too Sounds like you're doing some wonderful things, so just got to keep doing it. Keep on, keeping on, keep on keeping on. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:Thanks, bindiindi no worries, thank you take care.
Speaker 1:Okay, see ya.