When Teaching Feels Unsafe: Coping with Unfair Treatment from School Administrators Episode 296

What do you do when the part of teaching that scares you isn’t the kids, it’s the adults with power? I’m replaying a conversation that stayed with me for a reason: it names the kind of educator pain we’re often pressured to keep quiet about. My guest (sharing anonymously as “Nancy”) describes what it feels like to be targeted, talked down to, and evaluated through systems that ignore the reality of student needs, classroom complexity, and basic human limits.

We dig into the pressure cooker of standardized testing and teacher evaluations, including how “accountability” gets reduced to one test on one day. We talk about how that mindset can warp how we see students, push teachers into constant self-doubt, and fuel toxic school culture. Nancy shares what happens when administrators refuse to offer support, when improvement plans become surveillance, and when non-union districts leave educators feeling unprotected. I also share my own experience of being written up after advocating for my health and safety at work.

There’s hope here, too. Nancy explains how moving into a technology role helped her breathe again, and how makerspace and STEM learning brought back joy, creativity, and real engagement for students who struggle in rigid, test-driven classrooms. We also get practical about coping strategies: documentation, boundaries, grants, and finding ways to keep doing what’s right for kids even when leadership tries to “reel you in.”

If you’ve felt that knot in your stomach before work, I want you to hear this clearly: you’re not alone, and your worth is not defined by someone else’s agenda. Subscribe for more honest teacher stories, share this with a colleague who needs it, and leave a review with the one line you wish an administrator understood.

Links Mentioned in the Show:

Last Week of School Activities 1st & 2nd Grade | End of Year Theme Days

June Reading Comprehension 2nd Grade | Summer Reading Passages & Questions

Perfect for end-of-year learning, summer school, or preventing summer learning loss, these short, engaging reading passages help students continue to practice comprehension skills.

Transcript

Why This Conversation Feels Heavy

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What do you do when the hardest part of teaching that isn't the kids? Welcome to One Tired Teacher. This is episode two ninety-six when teaching feels unsafe coping with unfair treatment from school administrators. Hey there. Today's episode is gonna be a little bit different and honestly a little bit heavier. But in a way, I think it's what we need to hear. Hope you stick around.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome to One Tired Teacher. And even though she may need a nap, this teacher is ready to wake up and speak her truth about the trials and treasures of teaching. Here she is, wide awake. Wait, she's not asleep right now, is she? She is awake, right? Okay. From Trina Debori Teaching and Learning, your host, Trina Debori.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Hey. So I'm bringing back a conversation from 2022. It was episode 208. I can't even believe that we're almost to episode 300. Um, it's been a crazy journey. Anyway, it this episode stayed with me. And based on how many of you listened, shared, and reached out, I know it stayed with you too. But this episode is about something we don't always say out loud in education. What it feels like to be on the receiving end of unfair treatment, especially from leadership. Not the kind of heart that comes from teaching itself, but the kind that comes from feelings when you're feeling unsupported or you're not feeling heard or you're even targeted in a place where you're giving so much of yourself. In this episode, teachers speak honestly about those experiences, how they coped, what they learned, and what they wish someone had told them sooner. If you've ever felt that quiet knot in your stomach walking into work, or you've had that dreaded feeling, or you feel sick, or you don't want to go, or you questioned your worth because of how you were treated, I want you to know you're not alone. Take what fits, leave what doesn't. And most of all, be gentle with yourself as you listen. Welcome to One Tired Teacher, episode 208. Teachers speak out. How do they cope with administrators' unfair treatment? This is a heavy one today, my friend. This is going to be a difficult conversation, as it always is when we are talking about hurt feelings from all people involved. And today I sit down with a special teacher who who wrote me recently, and we were have been talking back and forth about some of the unfair things that have happened to her. But it's very it can be very triggering. I have had my fair share of experiences with with administrators that have been unfair and harsh and and even even acted in a bullying type of behavior. And it was not easy. In fact, it was extremely heartbreaking and it it ultimately led me to to want to leave the school system. And I think that that can be really rough. I do, I did spend some time I did spend some time on the other side, like as a student support specialist in the a more of an administrative role, and I do see how hard the expectations are for administrators. And so I know that there's it's not an excuse for behavior like that. It's an understanding of where people are coming from. And so I think that's an important thing to note. Um however, I don't think it's okay to act that way to to others. And so that's un very unfortunate. But I do think that there's not all administrators behave in that this way. And not all administrators are difficult to work with. I mean, I worked for a wonderful administrator for nearly 20 years. So he is not in any way a part of what I'm what we're going to talk about. And I mean, nobody's perfect. Everybody has their their their you know ways of doing things and also a system that's created created things where where unfortunately it can be toxic, even with the best of intentions. So I think that that's something to address as well. But if this is a triggering episode for you, then I think that maybe you skip it. Maybe you skip this week. And um but if it's something that you feel like maybe I need to listen and maybe I need to hear, I'm going it's going to be uncomfortable, but I'm gonna sit in my uncomfort and I'm gonna work through some of those feelings. And I'm also you also, I I hope that you know that you're not alone and that you are supported, you're loved, you are worthy, you are important. So I I want you to to hear that part as well.

End Of Year Theme Weeks

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Hey, so we're getting ready to get started, but I wanted to let you know that today's show is being supported by my end-of-the-year theme weeks. Um, it's just one more way of trying to help support you during a time that can be super stressful. And we know that we've got a lot of expectations on us. We've got tons of things to do on our to-do list and our end-of-the-year checkoff list. We also want to kids to continue practicing skills so they're solidly ready for the next grade level. And we also want them to have some fun and and be engaged and not all over the place and acting out. And when we don't have things in place, we often end up with behavior issues, and that's just annoying. So we don't need another thing to deal with at this time of the year. So I created an end-of-the-year theme week, and it's filled with activities for each subject area: reading, writing, math, science, social studies. There's some independent things that keep them super busy so you can get work done at work. And there's also some fun activities where you can actually enjoy your students. It's definitely the best way I've ever ended the school year. I did many different themes. Um, when I did this, I did end of the year camp. Love that. That's that's one of my favorite. We did end of the year beach, I did end of the year superhero, there was an end of the year western, um, end of the year sports, and it's just so fun. So you can check those out on TPT, Trina Deborah Teaching and Learning. Let's get on with the

Why Teachers Stay Anonymous

SPEAKER_01 6:56

show. So I am excited to welcome a teacher from across across the way, and I'm gonna keep her anonymous, and I I'm I'm looking forward to this conversation. Today I have a teacher, and we're gonna call her Nancy. Um, because the sad part of the situation is that teachers often feel like they can't speak up, they can't say things, they feel like there's gonna be some kind of retaliation, or they're gonna get in trouble, or they won't be renewed, or any of those things, which is so, so dangerous and so toxic for that to even be a thought in our minds. I felt the same way when I started the podcast. When I first started the podcast, I actually was out of school. So I felt very like, can I talk? But then I decided I didn't care. I knew I was going to leave. And I'm like, I don't care anymore. Like I'm I'm saying what I want to say. And honestly, I had felt stifled in my marriage and stifled in my my profession that I have loved. And I'm like, I'm not going to be quiet anymore. And I and now I don't have to be. And and so I'm like, if I can speak out in any way, and sometimes I try not to do these kind of episodes because I know they're triggering, I know they're hard for people. But then you said something in your email, and we'll get to all that about not feeling alone. And I'm like, that is why. And that is why it's I want to speak out, because if I can speak out for other people then and give it people a safe space to feel like they can talk, then that makes it all feel worth it to me.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

And and so I am so glad that you are here today. But we won't use your real name, we will use Nancy. And Nancy, well, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Thank you. Thank you. It's an honor um for you to have me here. And the reason I reached out to you is what you just said is that I felt alone, like I didn't have a voice. And you have you have stepped out um into that danger zone and given us a voice. And so I thank you for for all the work you're doing and all the support you're giving us teachers, because um, through your podcast, I'm I'm finding out I'm not alone in this situation. And while yes, I'm still in the district, so I still need to be quiet. Um, um, you're you're out there giving us that voice. And so thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that. Because, like I've told you off air, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm, you know, who am I speaking to? Is anyone listening? But but then I but then I get messages from people like you, and I think, okay, there is even if it's even if it's only you that it makes it worth it to me.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

And because I know that feeling, and I feel like that, I feel like this system the way that it's it's structured and put together is meant to make you feel alone. It is meant to pit teacher against teacher. And I mean, the evaluation system alone, and I mean, and sometimes we don't even realize what we ourselves, how we like our thinking has been so warped. Yeah, even even in conversations that you and I just had a few minutes ago, when we think about like, you know, the kinds of students that are placed in our class or whatever, when we are looking at kids like they're struggling or they're this or they're that, it's like we've lost our own perspective because we know now that this is going to impact us as like effective or highly effective or needs improvement or any of those things. Oh, yeah. And so now children have

How Evaluations Warp Teaching

SPEAKER_01 10:40

actually been, they're pitted against us. The thing that they use against us to get what they want us to do, it's for the kids, it's for the students. Those same people, they now make we think, oh my goodness, I'm not, I'm gonna, it's gonna look so bad on my evaluation because so-and-so is misbehaving or and I can't control, you know, all these extreme behaviors or all the rest of it. And it's like, this is what I'm thinking about kids. That's when I that's when it really hit me was I'm like, I'm actually referring to kids as low and high and and bad behavior choices and whatever. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, when did this happen to me? I'm when did I all of a sudden look? But again, it's because of the structure of the system. And all of a sudden you're functioning in this toxic environment and you have you lose perspective, you completely lose perspective.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Well, it's heartbreaking. I did 15 years of of teaching fourth grade, and and I can remember, you know, I I get I get my class list and it tells me, you know, this one has an IEP or this one is doing this, whatever. And you do those beginning of the year assessments, and I find out, you know, Billy is reading on a first grade level in fourth grade. Yeah. And so you're in mind, evaluated on it. Oh, absolutely. And he's gonna have to take the fourth grade test.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

You know, that's the problem. Right. And so if we got rid of that, we could actually look at that student and think, oh my gosh, this help is uh at first I'm looking at it and it in my teacher heart says, Oh gosh, Billy needs extra work with reading.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

I need to take a step back and meet him at his level and try to pull him further. And then, you know, that's my first thought. But then my teacher brain says, Oh no, you you don't have time for that. Yeah, you've got to teach him how to um find the things within the reading and find um compare and contrast the characters and did it, you know. So I've got I have to shove this terminology down their throat so that they know what the test is even asking for.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Let alone the fact, I mean, he's reading on a first grade level. He can't even read the directions on the test.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Um, and there's nothing I can do during the test to help because there's no, there's nothing allowed in my state. Yeah, big secret. He's only failed in the past. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I could I could have told you that on day one. I could have actually told you that information. I didn't even need to do this assessment that took you know four to five minutes. I could just tell you. I could have told you that day one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And but it's like you're somehow your fault that that has happened. Absolutely. And it's it's but it's like if we can't meet, and in my state, we started doing this stupid thing where it was like, well, everybody has to be on grade level, practicing on grade level for the majority of the day. So we're not even going to meet you where you are. It's like taking a group of, I don't know, nine month olds and saying everyone must be running on a grade level for nine months is running. Everyone must be running. So if you're just crawling, then you know what? That's too bad because we got to practice running. Yeah, we're gonna practice running even though you're a crawler. Yeah, and and it's it's like, and that's the other part. It doesn't take into account the fact that some people take longer to get to a certain point in their academics than others. We don't get to take any of that into account. It doesn't matter what your background is, it doesn't matter if your mom didn't put you on tummy time, you are running at nine months, and so and and also it's gotten more and more ridiculous. Doesn't it feel like it's gotten more as time has gone on? Because you've been in it long enough. I've been in, I was in it for so long. I'm like, wait a minute, what? What I used to ask my first graders to do when I first started teaching in 1997 is what they are doing basically in pre-K, right? And so I'm like, this is so just because you've decided that the standard should be more rigorous and that some kids can do that. You've decided that everyone everybody has to, yes, which is insane. That I could go on about that, but I I won't get off on attention. All right, so you started. I know it's so hard.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

There's like a million things, it's all connected and it and it all affects us right all over.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

So yeah, yeah, right. You're right. That's such a good point. It is all connected, and that and all these little pieces of it is what makes it into this very unhealthy system that isn't working for kids or teachers, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Because policymakers and administrators aren't looking at all the pieces.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

No, they're not.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Billy came in at you know, reading at a first grade level. What you don't also don't know is um Billy is Hispanic. Uh, no one at home speaks English. He translates for his parents. Um, so there's there's not a lot of support. He he moved into our district. He was getting um um ESL um help at his other school, but we don't provide that in our district. Yeah, um so so I'm supposed to provide that as well. Um yes. Also, I have you know, I have James who is ADHD and not on medication, so I can't get him to focus long enough to learn anything anyway. And you know, when it comes to taking the test, he's done in 10 minutes because he just bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, hit everything. None of those extra pieces are looked at. Um, and and and the we the teachers suffer for that.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

You're right, we do. And there it's a lot of pressure on us and a lot of um expectations, and then we're blamed for everything, everything that goes wrong in even in society, everything that goes wrong, and then any but anything we do is now oh no, we have to we have to look at that. Parents now have an input in what we're teaching and what we're saying, and you might be saying the wrong thing, you could be sharing the wrong kind of book. All those, oh my gosh, it's like insanity. It's it's such insanity. Okay, so so we we could talk about the brokenness of it, but let's talk, let's focus, let's focus on on what happened, like how you see you know you obviously you wanted to be a teacher. You you went into teaching because you wanted to be a teacher. So talk a little bit about the before before

Why She Became A Teacher

SPEAKER_01 17:00

the reality of what was going on set in. Like what how did you why did you want to be a teacher?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

I I started late in life. Um, I actually my ex-husband was in the military. We were stationed overseas, and I got a job as a teacher's aide at the um American School on the base. Um, absolutely fell in love with teaching, you know, working with children and um seeing them learn new things, that that look on their face. Um, I love learning. I love that the power that that knowledge gives you. And so I wanted to share that with children. So when we came back to the states, I went back to school, um, had my children, my own sons, um, started um 2002. And in 2002, uh the standardized testing for the state was starting. Um, my first job was in fourth grade. Um, and people were saying, oh my gosh, back then it was the proficiency test in our state. Oh, and it was fourth grade, eighth grade, and I think tenth grade. There was only certain grades where they happened to do it. And if the kids didn't pass, they would be failed. And oh, so much pressure, so much stress. Are you sure you want to take a position in fourth grade? Well, I have student loans now, so yes, I'm taking, I'm taking the position and I'll deal with it. Um, so so I started out teaching when it started um in our state, and and it was minimal. Um, and and at the time I felt like the assessments were doable for the grade level for at least the middle and the high kids, you know, the lower kids maybe struggled some, but they had, you know, there there were just their issues that they struggled with everything. Um so so I could see some issues there then, but again, it would it was still doable. And so for a while, um, I would say for the next five to ten years, things were doable. They they started to increase things then, you know. Um, now we do it in every grade, but we only do it for reading and math. Well, now we're gonna add science, and now we're gonna add social studies, and now we're doing it, you know, twice a year in some grade levels.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Um and then it's got not, it's so out of control, it's out of control. And also what you said was that the original intent was to show proficiency. However, the moment you attach a bell curve to proficiency, you're no longer testing proficiency. And that's something that we don't know. That's something that they don't talk to us about. They don't tell us that there's going to be a certain cut, basically. And it doesn't matter where you are, if you're below the cut, then you're considered not proficient. But that isn't testing proficiency. And so that's the thing that's so frustrating about this is you you could you could get them exactly where you know they needed to be. But if you're if you your class as a whole wasn't above this cut score or this whatever, then you then then it's not then you guys didn't do well. And and which is if it was truly you're truly measuring what I know, and you and you're not throwing in their questions for next year, too, to see what I don't know, because I can tell you they don't know that. That came along later as well. Yes, yeah, then they're not in. These kinds of confusing questions where we literally are trying to trick kids. I used to teach my kids that they were, I taught them that they actually were being tricked and that we were detectives and we were going to determine what the trick was so that we could see where the tricky questions could be. Because I felt like I had to teach them how to analyze that as second graders so that they could understand that because this unlike they're trying to confuse you. Well, and you ask a question like this, you're trying to confuse someone, and that's it's become it's become teaching students how to take a test, yes, not teaching them content, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Um in the beginning, in our or even how to think, how to think differently, right, right. Yeah. Um, in the beginning, in our state, teacher evaluations were not connected to these tests, and so again, as about 10, 12 years ago, that's when that started. You know, I remember going into a meeting and they're saying, okay, in our state, now teachers are going to be evaluated, and here's what we're looking for. And there were like three different um evaluations that they looked at. Of course, state testing was one. Um annual yearly progress was another AYP. Um, and then, and then there was, I forget the other one, you know, some acronym, but all of them were based on the performance of our students on this one test on one day. Yeah. And we were all like, what? You you've got to be kidding me. Um we're doing these other assessments in our classroom. And look, you know, Billy, who was on that first grade level at the beginning of the year, by halfway through, he was up to second grade, eighth month. Month. You know, he's he's made over a year's worth of growth in six months with me. How about that?

unknown 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

How about that? Let's celebrate that. Um, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

But no, that's not that is not taken into consideration at all. And it's so it's so unfair. And the what and what how the public gets sold on that though is they're told that we're holding teachers accountable. They need to be held accountable, which that used to make me. Your tax pay your tax dollars are paid. Yep. Don't you want to be doing their job?

unknown 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

And this is how we're gonna determine. And I was like, well, let's okay. If if we're gonna do that to teachers, let's do that to all professions. Let's take a dentist, for example, and say however many cavities your your clients have is based solely on your ability as the as the dentist. Exactly. So we're gonna judge your dentistry on how many cavities, you know, or if they don't have any cavities, they're proficient in not having cavities. However, we're we just expect that to be done in the two times you see your clients every year. And if they don't brush their teeth or they don't floss, or they eat candy and hold it in their mouths all night, they just have bad teeth. They're they have bad teeth, they've got genetics that's you're right. They didn't mom didn't have enough fluoride in the water, whatever, right? All these things and then they would be yeah, and that and that sounds like that's sounds so ludicrous to people. They're like, well, that's a they're like, that's not the same kind of example. I'm like, oh yeah, yes, it is. Yes, it is. It is the same thing. Yeah, and and I'm like, it sounds stupid because it is stupid, and I'm like, but so is this, so is evaluating adults on something that they can't control, exactly. So

Testing Plus Bell Curves Problem

SPEAKER_01 23:40

so okay, so now you you you left you leave the classroom to do a to do a different, like a special area job, correct?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Um right. So two years ago, um uh our technology person uh resigned, and so that posting came up, and I I needed something, I needed out. Um, I was so burnt out, I was so beaten down um by these these evaluations and administrators coming to me and saying you failed again. You you have only 40% of your class passing this test. Um again, again, you and and every year they were I felt setting me up for failure by giving me half of my class at below grade level when they walked in my home. That was supposed to be a supposed to be a um compliment at the same time, and that was just the academics aspect. That's just the academic aspect. Um, you know, several of them had behavioral issues, ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder, um just just so many, you know, foster children who were were dealing with emotional issues that that we can't even we don't even we can't even think of. I mean, it's it's insane. And and and I'm supposed to get these kids to sit down, focus, memorize your multiplication facts. You you have to know two times four. You have to.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Um, yeah, it's not that I'm gonna beat it into you if I have to. No, right, it feels like. Yeah. So and so before we even started recording, Nancy and I were discussing how okay, all of that is really hard. Everything we've talked about is is very hard. But the thing that can sometimes make or break, I think, a school is the administrator. Absolutely. And no matter what nonsense is coming down from all different areas, and I will say, and I I I've said this before on the podcast, and I'll say this again. I I did a job that was like on the administrative side for about two years. I mean, I did it two years, two different schools. And so I got to see what it was like from that perspective. I, you know, is in the office, helping whatever, do all those kinds of things, dealing with behavior problems, all the stuff that was coming from the district. And I will say there's a lot of pressure on administrators as well. And they are treated in the same ridiculous manner that teachers are, except for there they do have more flexibility for sure than teachers do, and they have some what of a say in their own school, which sometimes I feel like teachers don't feel that way in the classroom. At least I didn't feel that way sometimes. Right. And um, but that they do have the ability to protect their teachers or to nurture their teachers, to support their teachers, and when they don't, when they turn when they micromanage you or treat you badly or gaslight you or hurt you emotionally, it is like an ultimate game changer. It is worse, it's like the pits of hell, yeah, is what it feels like. Yes, it is. It's like what's already hard times a thousand on your back.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Um, I had an administrator come to me after an evaluation or or you know, the post-evaluation talk. And he said to me, So, you know, again, you you had a lot of kids fail the test last year. What are you doing to fix that this year? And I said, Well, first of all, you know, I had so and so with ADHD, and he wasn't on his medicine that day. And I had to, and he said, No, no, no, no, we're not blaming the children.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Oh my god, we're not gonna blame the children for not passing. I'm not blaming the children. You're not circumstances that I faced, and um and also how

Administrator Pressure And Burnout

SPEAKER_01 27:40

dare him! Like, what where was his how can I support you? How can I help you, you know, do something in a different way if that's what you actually do?

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Just recognize it, just recognize the fact that I had those struggles.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah, that was hard. Yeah, I get that. What what are you planning to do different this year? Um, and so so I would, you know, I would tell him something, and he just constantly came back with something negative about whatever I said I was trying to do. And so the next year when he came at me again, um, you know, I just looked at him and I said, you know what? I don't know what to do. I really don't. What do you think I should do? Because obviously, you know, for these last however many years that my kids have failed, I'm not doing it right, according to you. Tell me what to do. You're in my administrator. Advise me. And where he looked right at me and said, Well, that's for you to figure out.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Oh my gosh, what a great leader!

SPEAKER_02 28:42

He sounds like the best leader ever. I mean, right. So I I couldn't win. I could not win. And and I I struggled for many years, you know, soul searching and and debating, you know, I hated going into work, I hated teaching, I hated being around kids because I just couldn't, I couldn't fix it. I couldn't, I felt like I couldn't do it right. There was nothing, nothing I did was right. And so when this technology position came up, I jumped on that because I felt, first of all, um, you know, in our society right now, kids love technology. And so I thought maybe there I can be in a field where the kids will enjoy it. Um, I don't have testing. Um, I do have evaluation, but there's not the test to back that up. It's all on me. It's it's how I'm teaching it. What am I covering the standard? It's back to classroom community. What does my what does my classroom look like?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

What are my procedures look like? Yeah, exactly. And I think you can control.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

And I knew that my administrator wanted to bring in more makerspace and STEM learning with the technology, and that STEM learning is is one of my big passions. Um, yeah, I feel we need to we we've got to find a way to get this education system back to that type of learning.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Um, I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

It's what works best for kids.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

They I it's more it's it's reaching different types of learners, and we're not reaching them all with this same structure that we keep using. No, that like we're like that whole analogy of teaching what is it, a fish to climb a tree. Right. Like that, right? Yeah, exactly. I love I love that because it's it's ridiculous. Obviously, we're not going to teach a fish to climb a tree. So let's let's allow them to swim beautifully in a stream or a lake or whatever. Exactly. And so we're we have to do we have to do it differently. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

We can we can introduce yeah, we can introduce plants into their environment and we can show them what that's like, and we can show them you know how great the monkey is at climbing that tree, but we can also accept the fact that that fish probably not ever gonna get good at climbing a tree, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

No, and that's okay because it's what it wasn't built that way, that wasn't the purpose, right? So I think that I think we have to celebrate all the different purposes and all the different ways and different thinking, but we we not we're not doing that. So I agree, makerspace, stem. That's how I felt the moment I learned about makerspace and stem, I'm like, yeah, I think this is part of the answer. Like I felt so strongly that this was because I mean we I had a son who struggled, he has dyslexia. I actually have dyslexia. I I have like a family of people with dyslexia, and so school was very difficult for for my son. And I and when I ran across, I mean, I learned about makerspace when I when I left and was the media specialist and became a media specialist for a while as well. I I'm like, oh my gosh, this is it. I'm like, this is the thing, like there, like this is the thing that would have helped my son. I'm like, and I thought of I all these students that I had had in the past years in first and second grade, and and I'm like, oh my gosh, the names were popping into my head, children's faces were coming to my mind.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

And I'm like, and you're like, yeah, yeah. And I find I mean, two things are happening for me. One, I found my passion again.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Um, now I remember why I went into teaching. Um, and and I'm also seeing some of my some of my students who I know are struggling in the classroom are excelling in mine. Yeah um because they are tapping into those things that they their strengths are exactly, exactly, where a classroom setting is you know so rigorous and so structured and so just so much shove it down your throat, factual stuff that that just doesn't stick for them. But when you have something in their hands, it does.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Yeah, it does, and it also it feels more game-like, which I feel

Finding Joy Through STEM Play

SPEAKER_01 33:00

is such a benefit. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

I mean, this is such a dumb example, but when I was in high school, I took French and I really had a hard time. And then when I was in college, I took Spanish, which was like so dumb. I don't know why I didn't continue teaching French. At least I had some background. Yeah, but I had a professor at the University of Florida, and he said to me, Do you have dyslexia? And I'm like, Well, yes, how do you know? Now I I'd already like worked to overcome and was doing, you know, well, and I did well in school after we figured that all out and I had tutoring and all those things. And and I'm like, How do you know that? I mean, I thought I was doing a good job hiding that, is what I kind of is kind of how I felt. Sure. And he's like, he was doing his dissertation on dyslexia, and he's like, it is almost impossible for a person with dyslexia to learn another language because dyslexia is a language impairment, and and so I'm like, oh my gosh, it made me feel so relieved because I I thought it was a matter of like my effort, and I was working so hard, and I just couldn't understand why I couldn't get it anyway. So I you know got through that and it was done. But lately we're going, I'm going to Canada this this summer coming up, and I and we're going to Quebec. I know we want to say Quebec, but I think they say Quebec city. Yes, and and they speak French, and I'm like, I am going to learn, I'm gonna relearn French. So I get out Duol Lingo, which is you know a technology, yes, and I'm doing it. So I'm on my I'm uh on today is my 50 day streak, so I've been doing it for 50 days, awesome, and it's so fun. And I'm like, I remember struggling and frustrated, crying, literally crying in class in high school. And now I'm like, oh, I gotta get that to ching, or I gotta get the they pop up and give you a cake, and then the guy throws it in his face. Stupid little reward frame guy. Game like things makes me every I mean, even the streak alone, like how that in my mind, I'm like, I can't break my streak, I'm on day 50. Yeah, so it's things like learning.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

I try to use the the example of you know, as adults, there's things we don't like to do and things we're not good at. We choose not to do those. Now, you know, yes, I tried to play basketball, but I'm five foot tall. Um, I realized, yeah, very early on, I'm not gonna be good at basketball. And you know what? That's okay. I'm gonna go try something else. Now, yeah, there was nothing wrong with introducing me to basketball and letting me try it. Um, but but and I'm not saying that, you know, we just let students come in the classroom and just have a free-for-all and play and do whatever you want, whatever you like to do. I'm not saying that. I know they need to be introduced to so many different concepts, and I'm okay with that, but then we need to present it to them in a way that is enjoyable. I don't want to go clean the bathroom, I hate doing that. Um, I would rather go, you know, sit on my phone and do Pinterest or something. So if it's more fun for me, I'm going to take more of an interest in it. Yes. Um, so if somebody made basketball more fun for me, maybe I would have tried it more, you know. Um, yeah, yeah. So it makes such a difference.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

So technology has become the place where you get to make it more fun for more fun, yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

And I think people get they in their mind, oh, if a kid's having fun, they're not learning. And we need to get past that thought because that's not true. Um, they're actually more, yeah. It's the point to learn more when they're having fun.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

When we when we look at brain research and it talks about when you're happy, how much how much more information you hold on to just when you're in that happy zone.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

I'm like, why? And and that's how kids learn is through play. But we've acted like it, like how it makes me think of Matilda. What do you did you ever see that movie? Matilda. I know it, I know the concept. Okay, yeah. So the the trenchable comes in and they have like a classroom that's all they have their teachers' his name is Miss Honey, and it's all sweet and happy. And yeah, and then when the trenchable, the mean, nasty administrator comes, everybody turns down the shades and everything goes black, and they're all sitting there quietly and not making a peep. And she comes through the room. And and I'm like, that's what it feels like sometimes. Yeah, that is what it feels like. It's like we have to make it this horrific experience, and it's upsetting, but it it does. It all comes back to what we were saying about the administrator. If you have an administrator that is that is not taking care of their teachers, then we have it is the it becomes an even worse job. Because I even when you were saying you didn't want to come to school, I I remember that exact feeling. Um, one of the one of the well, I won't say that specifically because that'll be really obvious. But one of the jobs we had, I I literally had to drive in my car with this song, this very inappropriate song that was on YouTube. It was a video and it was it was called F this SH, you know, yeah, I'm out. That was the title. And I and I'm like, and it was like this little cartoon thing would I had to listen to that song over and over and over again just to get myself to go in the door. Yeah. Because because it was like, I don't know what just happened here, is one of the one of the lyrics. I I would mentally bribe myself.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Okay, if you go to work today and you try your best, you can have three cookies when you get home or a glass of your favorite beverage, or you know, yeah, yes. I had I had to force myself, and it would get to the point where you know, if you don't go to work, you're not gonna be able to eat. You need the money to eat, so you you've got to get up and go. Um, and and that's so sad. It's so sad. It's so, so sad that our administrators have um just caused us to feel this way. Not just the administrators. I mean, I I I agree with you that they also have their pressure. I know that it's then placed on them. If your teachers aren't succeeding, you're failing as a principal.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

But you're not going to motivate your teachers by treating them like they're not smart enough, right? Not good enough, not competent, they can't understand directions. They don't understand and also we're honestly, some of that is again part of it's a product of the system. Yes, when I first started teaching, it was all you figured it all out yourself. There was no scripted whatever. No, and and so I I was used to that, and it was more of your own thinking, and now it's like you must follow this exact thing. Everybody has to have their essential questions on the left side of the board, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. And I'm like, and now, and now they get mad and they they're like, I don't know why these teachers can't think. Well, why do you think they can't think? You've created this way that they have to do it, and then you then you're like, Well, it must be done this way, so there's no they don't even need to think, and so that's the part, and then they get mad at you when you don't think. It's it's like you never can do it the way they want you to do it. It's you have to read between the lines, it's so confusing, it's so blurry. And then when you have people treating you like I I don't know, I I don't know if you feel this way, and I and I've had more of an of this experience, unfortunately, with women, and I and I'm not sure why, but it's like the micromanaging power hungry, I've now become your boss mentality that that is I have had I have that's what that it's always been my AP that's like a person that I've kind of struggled with. Yes, and I and I'm like, I'm not, I mean, not every single one. I've had some wonderful APs, wonderful that I love and adore. And they went on to be a principal and they're great and whatever, but there's been plenty that I I'm like, I don't know why you feel like you have to be so mean or why you feel like I had I had an after 20 something years of teaching where where I had a according to the stupid records, highly effective career. Um, I I mean, who, you know, whatever that means for you know, because I think that's all ridiculous. But so let's just say it was in those eyes, you know, good. And then I was um had become I'm just I'm just gonna say it, I don't care. Became a media specialist at this school

A Write Up For Being Sick

SPEAKER_01 41:40

and I had an assistant principal, and she, I'm like, you are so I came to school one day. I come to school, I was sick. I didn't, I didn't feel good. I'm like, it's all right, I'm just gonna, I'll just get through the day. I have, I think I was off the rotation at this point. So I didn't have classes that came all day, but I had them, they were different signups. So people came at different times, and I had I had different things that went on through the day. So obviously, I I it wasn't like I could just sit in my office and put my feet on my desk, but I I thought I can get through the day. I'll do the minimal amount of seeing kids because I don't I don't feel good. I came in and they immediately said to me, You're you will be subbing in the music classroom. And I'm like, What? Yeah, you'll be subbing in the music classroom. And I'm like, no, I'm sorry, I can't do that. Like, I can't, I first of all have no music skills. Right. Um, I I can't, I'm not that's like sending me to teach French. I'm like, I I like started like hyperventilating inside. I was having a panic attack. Also, I have some, I take medicine for anxiety, I do as well, and that like completely completely sent me off the rails. I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, my my whole plan of schedule and all the things that I have to do today. And I was already struggling to get it done, and now you're gonna send me to the music room. And not even will you please go to the music room, Trina. We we need you. You're going to the music room. Here's the key. You have no words or say, you don't get to say anything. We don't care how you feel. Right. And I'm like, you know what? Actually, I'm gonna walk back out because I I I need to leave. I shouldn't have come in the first place. I'm not gonna stay today. I'm gonna take a day, I'm gonna take a subject. And um, oh no, I got in massive trouble. So they so the uh yep. So the lady at the front desk who was also not very nice, the whole staff wasn't very nice. Yeah, um, not all the teachers, but in this particular case, like a lot of people in the office. And she's like, Well, you have to, you're gonna have to talk to the AP about that because the principal was out for the day at a meeting or whatever. And I'm like, okay, I'm like, I'll stay. But I literally just walked in the door. So it it would be like I threw up in my car and I, you know, have to go. Right. And so I'm like, I'm leaving. So I sit there in the office like a child, waiting to talk to the AP. She comes down and I'm like, I say to her, I'm not gonna, I'll call her Sally. I'm like, Sally, I I'm not able to. Say, I'm sorry, I don't feel well. I shouldn't have come in the first place. I won't be, I'm not gonna be able to do it. What do you mean? You are here. And so she gets all mad. She like kind of starts yelling at me. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not gonna do it. I'm sorry I'm unable to do it. I have to go. And she, so she was really pissed off at me. I didn't just walk out, I didn't leave and walk out. I waited in the office, like I said, like a child in the seats where you sit the children. And I waited to tell her. And then I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't, I can't do it. And she so she got all flustered and mad, and I ended up leaving, and then she wrote me up. She actually wrote me up. I'd never been written up in my life. And I was like, it didn't end up staying on on my record because we talked it out. But I mean, I had to, I joined the union. Like in my state, it's like a non-union state. I hadn't been in the union since I first started teaching. Yeah, because I didn't feel like I needed like a protection from my principal because I worked for him for 20 years. I didn't, I never, the moment I worked at that school, I joined the union. I'm like, and I said that to my principal. I go, I haven't been in the union for you know at least 17 years. Uh and I'm like, I have joined the union because I feel like I have to protect myself from you guys, right? From you two. Right. And I'm like, that is really upsetting. And and so it was, it was, oh, and she so badly wanted to keep that on my record. She so badly wanted, and it was like, I think she was talked out of it by her um, her boss, her the principal, and also the director of elementary ed, that was my former 20-year principal. And so I think that's the only reason why she took it off. But but it was it was awful. It was like the worst experience. I felt like I felt she wasn't even willing to discuss it calmly. And finally we did, and I actually threatened to bring someone from the union into the meeting because I didn't feel safe. Right. And um, and so when I got in there, I I they didn't end up coming in, and we both ended up like kind of crying and talking about it and working it out. But I was like, oh my gosh, this was the worst, and all it all came down to she said that I just walked out, which first of all I didn't do. Right, and secondly, I refused to do what she asked me to do. And I'm like, I'm not allowed to tell you I don't want to do someone else's job. Yeah, I mean, that's the that's the problem. We're not even allowed to have feelings,

Targeted By A Superintendent

SPEAKER_01 46:30

or I'm sorry, I'm getting so mad about this. It's like really reminding me.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

I I totally understand because um my district is non-union. I I don't have anyone to help me. Um, and several years ago, under uh a different superintendent, um, I felt that I for some reason, I don't I don't know what I did, but for some reason I was being targeted by this superintendent. Um apparently she had gotten a parent complaint. Um, and so she called me into her office with my principal at the time. And so it was the two of them on one side of the desk and me on the other. Um, and she just reamed me up one side and down the other at the time I was going through a divorce. Um, and I know, you know, you're supposed to keep your personal life out of your classroom. There's it's impossible. But you're humans, you know. I was struggling with a lot emotionally and doing the best I could to leave that outside my classroom and still do my job. Um, and at one point in that meeting, she literally came across her desk at me, pointing her finger in my face and and berating me. And and I just sat there in total shock.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Yeah, because you were being treated like that. That I was being treated like that. Did she even try to seek understanding? Did she even accused you, took one person's side of something, completely accused you, belittled you, made you feel terrible, demeaned you, like pointing your finger at another adult? Right. And and then throughout without even listening to your side of the story.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah, she even threw out, um, you know, you're going through a divorce, you're gonna be a single parent now. You know you need this insurance to support your kids. Um, and then and then my my principal, I kept looking over at her like, Why aren't you helping me? Why aren't you saying anything? She's silent the whole time until at the very end, and then she came at me with, if you can't comply to my uh to what I need you to do, then perhaps you don't belong in my building. And I I I again I was just dumbfounded that this was she she never treated me that way in our building. But in this meeting with the superintendent, you know, she came at me as well. And then afterwards, she was she was told she was helpful. Um, I got I got put on an improvement plan. Um for two years, I had to turn in every assignment, uh, lesson plan and assessment that I was going to give for the whole week. Like I there was there was two three-inch binders full of stuff that I had to continuously turn in. I had to meet with my principal every week. Um, she had to to approve what I was doing. Um, it it just went on and on and on. And and I had no choice. I had no one to back me up, I had no one to help me.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Um even your own principle that you trust that you were supposed to trust. Right. And and and they and no, it's awful. I felt that my principle in that situation that I just explained didn't really stick up for me either. And I had known her my whole entire teaching career, and and I remember saying to her, you know, you've known me for so long. Like, how how could you not at least say something right that right? I I'm I'm like think about why a person would actually refuse to do a job. I know that's probably unheard of, and even people listening are probably like, well, you probably deserved it. You refuse to do no and I'm like, but why did why do we always have that expectation that that everyone does every single thing like a robot that we just conform to whatever you tell us to without having any voice say so or any feelings about it at all? It doesn't matter how it affects your even your mental health. That was such an unhealthy mental space for me to be in for that amount of time. I mean, I resigned quickly after that. With like left like my 20-something year career and said, I'm not gonna do this anymore. I don't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

And um, and it was because of the so much of the crazy. I mean, I was already upset about what was happening to kids and all the things you talked about earlier with testing. That was already weighing on me. Right. And but this was like the final straw. I'm like, I have nowhere else to go. Like, I've already tried two other positions, which were again that other one was fine, but I'm like, I I can't, I can't continue to to be treated in such a and there were so many more things than just that. There were so many more ridiculous things. I mean, I it was just I I mean, the uh my dad, my father was dying um at one point, and I had to leave early and not like really early, but like an hour earlier, which is you know, I had my first principal that I like I that I loved and worked for for most of my career. He had a policy that if you left two hours within you know, two hours, then you just it's fine. If you got it, we got it covered and it's fine. Um, but they didn't really have a policy at this school, but but I'm like, it was an emergency, didn't matter. I had to go. I and so I I left, I had got everything covered and I left. I rushed, I mean, I literally drove to my house and drove to the airport and um and in North Dakota. And so I my that secretary docked me, docked my pay. And and I was, I'm like, I go, first of all, I have sick time. Why didn't you take the sick time? Right. And she's like, well, you just left. I go, no, I didn't just leave. I talked to the principal, I asked permission, and I'm like, and it was an emergency, and I didn't have students, so yes, I I had to leave. And and I I and I was it was so like big deal, an hour of time normally, but I was buying a house as a single mom, and I had to have my paycheck had to be exactly the same every single time. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it ended up being fine. I bought the house, whatever. Yeah, but it was so I'm like, how mean?

SPEAKER_02 52:35

It's like it's just yes, and those those little things just built up and just by piece by piece break you down, and and you know, like I said, it's been 12, 15 years of this mentality because then that superintendent hired in uh principals who worked the way she did, you know. Um, and so my current principal is is very much like that. He, you know, he he was doing those evaluations when I was teaching fourth grade. And what are you gonna do about this? How are you gonna fix this? And I I'm I don't know. You tell me. Well, that's for you to figure out. Um, yeah. I I when I became the technology teacher, um, he had he had started makerspace before COVID. Um, and then of course, COVID, you know, just ruined everything. Um, and so last year when I took over the technology position, I went to him and I said, Hey, I, you know, I love the idea of the makerspace. Can I rejuvenate that? Can I help you bring that back? Well, not until after testing. You can't do anything until after testing. All right. So I planned some things, you know. After testing, we have six weeks of school left.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

I was gonna say barely any time.

SPEAKER_02 53:47

Um, right. And and so trying to come up with makerspace projects. Um, I had very minimal supplies. Of course, that's a whole nother issue we can get into is the financing of things. Um

Grants And The Makerspace Comeback

SPEAKER_02 54:00

so I had to plan out some careful projects that the kids could do within the six weeks when I see them once a week for 50 minutes, um, with the supplies that I had. And so I did that. And then at the end of the year, I went to him and I said, Hey, um, this is this has been awesome. The kids love it. The teachers are telling me the kids are so excited, they can't wait to come see you. Here's here's how I can make it even better. Here's this big plan. I did a presentation with a slideshow, and I had pictures of the kids and and ideas and how I can incorporate not just technology, but STEM learning and social emotional learning and all this stuff I can do. And my my kind of key thing at the end was hey, look, I can do all this stuff on one teacher's salary. You don't have to pay any extra money to get all this. And so when I finished, um, he leaned back in his chair and looked at me and said, Well, you know, it's my job to reel teachers in when they get too excited about things. Oh, and so my heart just sank. And that moment, I was broken again. I was broken, I was so excited about what all I could bring to the to the table, what all I could do for our students. And it was his idea in the beginning, but because all of this was not his idea, yeah, he didn't he stifled it. He said no to all of it. Um, so then I I I struggled for a little while.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Wind out of your sails.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

He exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

And so it's demoralizing, and it's it's I feel like I feel so angry listening to you say it that it makes me even want to say things like he should just be ashamed. And I hate using shame because I think shame should not be used as a as a weapon. But I'm like, I'm so disappointed in in that response from him. That is his job as the leader to it to motivate you and excite you, not to hold you back and stifle you.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

And I why wouldn't you want to like a stallion?

SPEAKER_01 56:01

You can't you can't put a stallion in a crate, like it's you gotta let them run free.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Um, for for a while I struggled, and I was kind of basically, you know, all right, F you. Um, I'm not doing anything. I will do minimum. That's that's all you're paying me for. I will just cover these standards and nothing else. And what got me was in the last few weeks of school, my students who I was gonna have again this year, so many of them came to me and said, Are we gonna do this again next year? This was awesome. This was so fun. I loved this. And so I I had to do what is best for my students. And I said, you know what? Yeah, we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it. And so I kind of have been sneaking behind his back and doing it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

I'm well, he's not gonna monitor, he's not doesn't have enough time to monitor you, right? So I think that's I think that's what we have to do. I I really do. Yeah, I think we shut our doors and we have to do those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

I've been fortunate that um I have been presented with some grant opportunities. Um, I have brought in over ten thousand dollars in grant money in the last year for my classroom.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Um congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Thank you. I am I'm very proud of that and very excited because my students are getting to also he can't say no to that.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

He when when they're getting money to their school, it actually makes them look good. Exactly. That's how you get them. Yes, that is so smart.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

So um, so then he came to me, uh I would say maybe right before Christmas um this past year and said, I I think I will go ahead with this whole makerspace STEM idea for next year. I said, Oh, okay, that that sounds that sounds great. I'll work on that. You know, and and I I I'm starting to learn with him, it's it's kind of a game of presenting my ideas and my thoughts in a way that he thinks it's his. Um and I I'm I'm struggling to play the game. I haven't quite figured out all the rules yet, but I'm getting there. And and my students are still benefiting from it. Um, I'm still teaching technology, I'm still teaching STEM. Um, and I am seeing so many good things from my students that, like I said, I know are struggling in the classroom, but in my classroom, they are blossoming, and they they are learning things not just about academia, it's they're learning things about themselves and they're learning how to work with a partner, and they're learning how to think outside the box. And these are all the life skills that we want our children to have, and they're not getting that when we're only teaching to a test. No, you're right. There is no career in this world where you just go and take tests.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

No, doesn't it? Um I think when you you asked me in that email, and that makes me again feel emotional, but you asked me like how do we keep going? But I think it's things like that. I think it's those little pieces right there where we push back and we focus on what we are doing and with our with our students. And unfortunately, if it takes a game on a ridiculous game, emotional game with your administrator, right? You gotta you have to see yourself as the winner that you are because what you're impacting the lives of students, and it's I know it's so heavy to carry that to have to play this ridiculous game with with him. It is, yes. It is, it's exhausting. It is emotionally, it's really exhausting, yes, and um, but if he's if if you're able to like not be under his thumb or not have to deal with his day-to-day ridiculousness, then then then there's a little bit of hope that you can still continue to make an impact on your students because that that is that was the thing for me. When I did when I went back, I I I actually didn't want to. I I went I went back anyway. And the first year was the year of COVID, and I was a student support specialist. And honestly, I was thankful that COVID happened. I know that sounds crazy, but I was chasing kids, behavior kids all day long. They were calling me two times at the same time. We need you in this room, and then one I'm running to that classroom, and while I'm running to that

When The System Finally Breaks You

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

classroom, nope, we need you in this other room. And I would say, What's the priority? Because I can't go to two places at one time. Yes, and it was it was an actual it was in it was an insane job. I actually had decent administrators. I loved that AP. She was the best, she's the best I've ever worked for, and um, but it was a horrific job. And I was miserable. So when we shut down, I got to work, I got to help teachers with technology, I got to help parents. I got to I got to meet to meet with kids every single week, every single day and online and be and be there for kids that whose parents weren't home, who still had to work, all kinds of things that I got to do. It felt like a gift. I'm like the pandemic actually felt like a gift. Yes, and um, and I was so thankful. And then the next year I was the media specialist, and we had a new AP and and she had worked in a prison system, like that was her background, and she was so nasty, and she was just bound to do whatever was possible to make and I and I'm like, I I he he would like the principal's like, you're gonna be on the leadership team and you're gonna do this and this and this. And then I realized what what they were doing and what they were asking, and I'm like, you know what? No, thank you. Yeah, just leave me alone. Let me just be in the media center, let me just excite kids about reading and just leave me alone. Yes, and it was that part was the best. Like it was the best. I mean, I had book clubs, I read in classrooms, I was in you know, kindergarten, first and second grade. I had a I had a fifth grade book club, I had another fifth grade remediation group that I actually worked with, and we didn't focus on the test because when the principal asked me to do it, he said, I know you won't. Um, you won't do a program. And I'm like, You're right, I won't. But we worked on like self-esteem, and um, and our school was supposed to get a D, and we ended up getting a C. And I worked with the kids that had scored the lowest, whatever, on the test in the fourth grade. And I'm like, I never saw the scores, I never found out, but I'm like, obviously, it had to have helped because we didn't get the projected score, we did better than we were supposed to. And that principal actually got demoted, but before they the scores even came out because they assumed he was going to do poorly, and then they didn't, which was ridiculous. Yeah, but that us that assistant principal, she whatever whenever she could make life miserable, she she did. And um, and she made I had to test for like 28 days, and it was and that was what broke me. That's what finally broke me. I'm like, I can't do it anymore. I can't, I can't I watch kids miserable and unhappy, and I'm like I can't do it anymore. Yeah, and it was it's so sad, but I'm listening to you and I'm thinking there's still people that that are like fighting for the things that are right and the things that are good in education and the things that matter to kids, and so I just want you to know how important you are and how valuable you are, and when you feel alone and when you feel pushed down, you've got to remind yourself you are a stallion, you are meant to run, you are meant to be wild, and you are meant to do things that matter, and you are. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

I I do, like I said, being in this technology position has brought back my joy and my passion. Um, but there are times, I'll be honest, I feel guilty. I feel like survivor's guilt. I I made it out. I made it out of that. Um, yeah, in in a lot of ways. I mean, yes, we still have that administrator who, you know, has put the pressure on us, but but it's different for me now. I have so much less stress and pressure without that test. Um and I I yeah, sometimes I feel guilty. Like, oh, I I I I I left them back in the trenches

Survivor Guilt And A PhD Exit Plan

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

fighting the battle. Um but I also feel that, you know, I I I took a hard look at myself a couple years ago and I said, you know what, enough's enough. You have been depressed and you're in such a bad place for so long in this career. You either need to, you got to do something. You either need to suck it up and deal with it, or you're gonna have to do something else. And and so I started looking at other careers. I I tried, I had a master's degree. Um, I had 15 years experience at that point. I was not hireable, you know, nobody else is gonna hire me at that pay scale um with that many years of experience in another school district because they can't afford you. So so moving on to a different school district was not an option. Um my my qualifications are limited, even though I have a lot of qualifications, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

I think we feel that way, Nancy. I almost said your name. Um, I think we feel that way. And but I but they they're no, I was out there searching.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:48

I was out there searching, and there's not a lot of careers that we can just shift over to with the qualifications we have, and so I felt stuck, and I'm like, this is not okay. I I I can't I can't do. This is for another 15, 20 years before I can retire. I'm not going to make it. I'm mentally not going to make it. What else can I do? And so I have been working on my PhD in educational psychology. That's been my out. This is my way to get out. And I'm hoping my big dream is to somehow change the way education works in our country. We've got to stop the standardized testing. This is not working. I've done so many papers about it in my doctoral journey, and statistics show it's been going on for 20 years. Our students are not succeeding at these tests. It's been 20 years. Einstein said, you know, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting something different. If this isn't working, we need to try something else. And so I want to, I'm going to try. I'm going to try to develop a different curriculum plan and a different assessment plan based more on STEM learning that would that will show progress. I'm not opposed to showing accountability, showing progress, but you can't limit it to one test on one day. And then evaluate the student and the teacher and the principal and the school district. That that doesn't work. So that is my um, you know, yeah, I I love your your analogy there of I'm a stallion in a crate. Um I'm I'm still in my crate somewhat, um, but I found a back door and um so I can escape from my crate sometimes, and I and I'm working on um doing that. And I yeah, I just hope that with people like you and I seeing that this is wrong and this is not what's working for our children, that we can together collaborate and make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:03

That's my goal.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

Yeah, I think that's beautiful. And to um yeah, to imagine that as the future is is is like brings a great deal of happiness because that's yes, yeah. It's I hope you're right. It's oh yeah, yeah. No, it will. It'll be it'll be no. I think that's that's really important. I I don't know if you know Dr. Vanderhoehen, Jen Venderhoven. No, um, she's actually been on on this podcast before. She's unbelievable. She's doing like she has this group called the Rebel Teachers, it's a Facebook group. Okay, and she's a learning theorist, so she's a PhD, and she is writing a book currently about the about education. It is outstanding. Like I'm one of her one of her better readers. Yeah, it's not out yet. It's not, it's not she's in the middle of of writing it, but like I've read the first part now. She just sent me the second second part, which is all like the research part. It is so I I mean, I it's like you just want to shout it from the rooftops because you're like, oh my gosh, you totally get it. So there are people out there that are working that are like dedicated to to helping and my research too.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

Yes, I have found there are people out there that totally agree with us. They are published directors, they are PhDs, and they are sending it. We need to have the science together. Yeah, yes, we have the science to back this up.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:24

So we and not and not uh like because even when you said that about survivors' guilt, I'm like, oh my gosh, I feel that way sometimes. I do feel that way sometimes, but it's like, but that's but we that's just another another thing that that that will be used against you in a on an unhealthy system. So no, I'm not gonna accept that. We're we can just continue fighting on for kids and students and teachers and um and educators that that are stallions in a crate that need to be able to run free. And that is true for teachers, that is true for students.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:57

We we know that what they're feeling. That's why we have the survivor skill, is because we also see it can be better on the other side.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

You're right, and so that's that does drive unbelievably eye-opening it is when you take a step back and you go, Oh my goodness. Yes, so it it's worse than you even realize when you're in the middle of it, it's worse than you realize. So it's absolutely all right. Well, I'm I'm so thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and and for being you.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:33

Thank you. It has been an honor. And um, again, I can't thank you enough for what you're doing,

You Are Not Alone And How To Reach Out

SPEAKER_02 1:10:40

um, and how much you've you you're touching the rest of us who are still out there, um, knowing that we're not alone means a lot. It means a lot. Keep up the good work.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:51

You too.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

All right, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

Oh thank you for sticking around. If you want to share your story or you want to talk to the trials and treasures of teaching with me, then reach out at T Deborah at Trina Deborah Teachingandlearning.com. I I wow. So that was that was a long one, but it was it's so important. If this episode brought anything up for you, please know that you're not alone. And more than that, what you experienced does not define you or your worth as a teacher or a person. You are allowed to want support, you are allowed to expect respect, and you are still doing meaningful work, even in hard places. Take what you need from this conversation and leave the rest. You're doing enough. I'll talk to you next week. Until next time, sweet dreams and sleep tight.