Coaching The CIO

Emotional intelligence and soft skills are crucial for CTIOs The IT industry is competitive and continues to evolve rapidly. It’s no longer just about technical skills; leaders must be able to communicate effectively, collaborate across teams and manage change effectively. These skills can help them navigate the challenges of the digital age with ease and ensure they get results from their teams.

The CIO role is changing. The CIO role is changing and evolving to meet the demands of a digital world. As a result, IT leaders must be able to communicate clearly, collaborate with their teams effectively and manage change efficiently in order to get results.

These are the reasons CIOs need to consider coaching.

Transcript

Julie: 0:00

the big thing about a coach is that they're not there to tell you what to do or to railroad your decisions they're there to support you.

Malcom: 0:07

Welcome to CTIO 1 O 1 Episode 7 Coaching the C T I O Sponsored by Fairmont Recruitment, Hiring Technology Professionals Across the UK Europe

Jon: 0:16

What are, technical folks like CIOs, what they like to work with? Is there a type or do you see like a range or do you see, well, actually there's four types or are there everyone's different? What's your experience so far been just, dealing with the likes of dare I say it myself that's that kind of CIO CTO?

Julie: 0:33

I think it would be unfair to say there's a type because I spend most of my life saying that you can't put people into boxes, what we see is that, that people have probably come from a certain place where they've come from learning tech skills, using tech skills, and then are in a position of management leadership. And so they might be coming from a perspective plus potentially, perhaps more of, the technical side. So they're more focused on detail. They're more focused on getting things done rather than relationships with people let's say potentially, but that's not by putting everybody in a box that would be completely unfair

Jon: 1:08

Julie you are so diplomatic in your wording there. Cause what I heard was, technical people are great at getting stuff done. But they might not bring everyone along with them. And actually potentially, yeah but bringing everyone along with them would make life a lot easier. But those are sort of softer. They call them soft skills, don't they? Which, which is beyond just being able to understand, the technology side. If we talk about a coach it's, I've had a few coaches, they've all resigned under protest just said, I'm sorry, John you're uncoachable. My first ever coach, I was terrified because of, I suppose for me, it was the amount of trust I had to place in this person. And also I was worried that if I got the wrong kind of coach, somehow they'd hypnotize me into doing the wrong thing. Before you've had a coach, you're so used to just, well, you think you're relying on yourself. Does that make sense? Do you see folks going through a process.

Julie: 2:03

happens all the time and John, to be quite honest, because I think, when you're growing up, the only thing you ever hear about is perhaps football coach or something like that, and you see'em shouting at people on the pitch. The big thing about a coach is that they're not there to tell you what to do or to railroad your decisions. They're there to support you, to challenge you into making a decision or taking a road and helping you to fathom out what that road should be. Really. They're not there to tell you what to do.

Jon: 2:29

Your football coach and everything that's gonna, I think it's gonna really resonate with folks. So what we were saying was, taking that first step of getting a coach can be quite daunting. Are there any kind of dos or don'ts when you are trying to get started with a coach?

Julie: 2:42

Yeah, definitely. There's a whole bunch of do's and don't first of all, don't just pick one on the price. Don't pick one because they're the cheapest coach. not that you would but the biggest thing for me is if you are gonna spill your guts and you're gonna say how you really feel, and you're gonna get vulnerable, then the very first thing you've gotta do is you've gotta like that person. And alright you don't wanna go out with them. You don't necessarily wanna go down the pub with them, but you need to be able to. Have a relationship with this person where you are able to say the truth, because if you can't say the truth, then the coach can't coach you and you can't coach yourself because you are denying yourself. And to be quite honest, Jon, without a coach, we are really good ignoring what we should be doing and procrastinate over things. And the whole point about this is to get real and to get over that stuff, to make good decisions, to take action. And that's what the coach is there for. So the biggest thing you've got be able to do is to feel safe enough and that you like them enough to be able to say the truth so that then you can deal with the truth, good or bad how ugly that might be and then move on. So I think that's really important.

Jon: 3:46

Something's just struck a chord with me, which is very obvious, but you know, you're talking about someone that you trust, but also someone who will be straight with you, those two factors are important and that made me think a bit about your background. You, I mean, do you want to just give a little bit about some of the things you've done professionally?

Julie: 4:03

I was in the police. I was an inspector in Hartfordshire police. I was there for 16 years. I absolutely loved it. And what it did was teach me massive amounts about people and why they either do or don't do what you want'em to do and at the risk of sounding, a bit geeky about policing, UK, we're all about policing by consent. We're not about whacking the gun out and telling people what to do. We're about, even if you're gonna arrest somebody, you want to be able to do it in a way that they comply as much as they possibly can. And therefore, this is all about how you create a relationship, how you can help people to want to do what you want them to do. That means that they have to trust you, even if they're gonna be arrested. I remember a time when. There was one guy who was a really big burglar I said to him, we need to deal with this stuff. And he's oh yeah, I know. I said, well, how about you? Come in on like Wednesday, I'll pick you up. You come in. He says, that's brilliant because then I know that you are gonna deal with me, like honestly, and openly and carefully, and I can trust, you I've got something horrible. I've gotta deal with that. I can have a, an adult to adult conversation and I'm not gonna be able to feel stupid or any of those things. And I can deal with it as bad as that situation is for that person. And I think that's a little bit like coaching really is that you are gonna have to tell me something that you may not like about yourself, or you may not like about what's going on and you've gotta feel good about it because if you don't, you're never gonna say it and then you're never gonna deal with it.

Jon: 5:31

One of the things I think with the CIOs any profession where you've got your blinkers on at a certain point, this is like pre-coach, and you're thinking there aren't many people who really understand the pressure I'm going through or the decisions I'm having to make, or the accountability I've got with all these data centers and all the rest of it. I think it's really important to, in terms of your credibility, being an inspector in the police, carries with it, a huge amount of accountability and pressure, there is a, you are not coming at this from a perspective of not understanding what operational pressure is. You are actually coming from it from someone who's successfully, managed it and dealt with it.

Julie: 6:10

Absolutely. I mean, don't get me wrong and I'll reveal a little bit of my previous careers. I was an engineer originally, but seven, we won't dive into that but yeah, if you think about policing that you never know what's coming. And that's a bit like your data center crashing, I suppose, every day in that you turn up and you have to deal with what you have to deal with right there. And then yes, you can plan for some things. But at the end of the day, you've got a team of people who are out there, on the ball, dealing with stuff, and you've got to be able to manage that. You've got to better manage pressure. You've got to be able to keep calm in situations and you've got to be able to prioritize. Yeah, I'm not a CTO or a CIO, but I have taken that experience and applied that. I think it means that I come from a perspective of calm and of able being able to listen to what's going on for you guys.

Jon: 6:58

And also Julie, I'd say from my personal experience, undoubtedly. Your role in the police would've had in reality, much more pressure. And more consequence than that, of a CIO, it's just, everyone in the world they're in, it amplifies the pressure they're under, but in absolute terms, my personal opinion would be, you your leading that. And I think when you look for a coach, you want to, this is me personally speaking, but I want to have a coach who if we go to the sporting analogy, maybe won the gold medal or silver or bronze, got a podium position in something, there's a, there's an angle of not just advice and reflection, but also of some sort of leadership and some sort of example of, I've walked the walk. I'm not just talking the talk which I think is probably isn't that sort of central to coaching generally that you are bringing something of yourself to the table. It's not just isn't there a bit of a risk that you take, you sort of. You say something about yourself and then the other person says something about themself and that kind of gets the trust going. Is that right?

Julie: 7:56

Yeah, because in the way that, how do you build rapport that, we build rapport because we are meeting somebody where they are and we are likening our situation to their situation. So yeah, it's not in coaching. I'm not there to say, oh, I did it this way. So you should do it that way. But those experiences help me to ask the right questions. They help me to dive into the right pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. That mean that it can unlock your thinking. So it's not about overlaying it. It's about knowing where to ask those questions.

Jon: 8:27

A consistent theme with everyone who comes to CT 1 0 1 is they have a passion for what they do, which just is really apparent Julie in your area. But I just wanted to ask you, if you could articulate what's drawn you to coaching what, what's made. What on earth were you thinking? Sorry, I don't mean it like that, but what's kind of drawn you into that space. The attraction for you personally?

Julie: 8:48

What drew me into coaching was an experience of being coached and seeing coaches in action because I was actually, being totally vulnerable and honest. I was in a really bad place at the time I had a boss that I didn't really get on with, and I didn't understand why I didn't get on with him as well and that was an interesting I do now. But at the time I thought that person was, slightly like the Devil and couldn't get my head around it and it was affecting my work and I was a confident, really confident, capable Officer at the time. And it was amazing how much that actually affected me, the stress, the anxiety of not being able to work through what was going. and then a wonderful lady in the police. She said to me, I'm gonna send you on a course. And I experienced coaching on that course for the first time, and I'd never seen anything like it. I was like, what are the Hells going on? Why aren't they telling me the answers which is quite annoying, but in the first instance, but once I realized what they were doing, they were helping me to unpack what was going on in my mind, unpack what was going on in the situation and kind of take a step back out of the sort of being in it and so stressed about it and looking, I always say, John, looking on looking in on, if you are watching yourself on TV, so being disassociated from it, and that ability to be able to do that with a coach is amazing because you see things differently because you can step out you're less emotionally attached and you can make far better decisions and see what's really going on. And then. You can move forwards. And that's how I started to learn coaching. And literally from that day, I was like, I need to get into this. And that's when I started training. So I was still a police officer when I started my coach journey and did a lot of it inside policing

Jon: 10:27

You talk about that watching yourself on tele kind. Analogy that reminds me of mindfulness. I mean, I'm no expert, but there are some very famous apps mindfulness and I on the road. I've used them occasionally maybe after a very stressful day, traveling that sort of thing and just that ability to sort of, like you say, take a step back and look at what's happening almost from a slightly separated position is very powerful. So Julie we are talking about your coaching. And one of the key, I think, key things about coaching that I've read in the research I've done for this session is that you should also, when you're looking at a coach is try and understand what their underlying philosophy is, because that can be a thing that you can really chime into and I know you've got a strong underlying philosophy that you use in your coaching. Would you like to sort of talk us through, that core philosophy?

Julie: 11:16

Focusing on the fact that my specific area of coaching is around impact and influence and around communication and skills and all of those things. And so one of the things I like to do is use, oh, I use analogies a lot, but I like to make things really simple. And so if we were to take you. Here you are a CTO or here you are, whoever you are. And you want to have more impact and influence, and I'm here to coach you. Then I want, first of all, to under, to come from a philosophy of why do people do or don't do what you want'em to do, because at the end of the day, if we understand that, then for every situation we can look at, we can diagnose, we can UN unpack the jigsaw puzzle of, okay, how do I make that better? I use the philosophy of Can't do, Won't Don't do. And that is that people either can't do what you want'em to do, or they won't do what you want them to do, or they just well, don't do what you want them to do. And I'll explain those three things. So can't do sounds fairly simple. So let's start with that one. So either I don't have the skill or I don't have the confidence to do the thing that you want me to do. okay. So if I'm CTO and I want to influence somebody or I want to get'em to do something, if I can't do it, if they can't do it, then it could be one of those two reasons. Is that your doorbell?

Jon: 12:33

For apologies. I've I've muted. The mic was going off just like it's some sort of party going on. Someone in the house will be shushing people. So apologies for that.

Julie: 12:42

it's all right. So can't do either. I dunno how to, or I I don't have the confidence to go ahead and do that. Then there's these other two, which I'm really interested in, which is, first of all, won't do now won't do, Jon is I'm not gonna do this because it's you. Okay. So this is a personal, a relationship thing. And therefore I choose not to do it, even if I could. I choose not to, because I don't have the trust or the relationship, or I just don't like you. And therefore I won't do it, which is a very different reason from something about me personally, about my skill. And then the third point is that I just don't do, and you might think, well, that's the same, but it's not at all the same. The difference is here is I don't agree with your cause I don't agree with why you are doing what you're doing. Okay. So I don't agree with your philosophy. I don't agree with your passion. I don't agree with your purpose and therefore I choose not to do it. So I've got a different agenda, again, a choice. Okay. So we need to know why that is. And so when we look at impact and influence the way I work and the philosophy is run around those things, which is, well, how do I change from can't do, won't don't do to, can do, wants to and will do and so it's the jigsaw puzzle of what skills do I need to make that happen? And that's how the program that I'm running is set up in terms of the impact accelerator, which is what do I need to make to be able to influence those things?

Jon: 14:05

So Julie that's fascinating because I know we also talked about the context of this impact in a CIO's or CTIO's first 100 Days.

Julie: 14:14

Yeah.

Jon: 14:14

and what you've just said there to me I've absolutely recognized this in a new role, going into a new role where your engineering teams are worried about the skills that they have, or there might be a gap between skills about the whole team that could that in technology terms, it doesn't surface itself really obviously is a can't do what it often surfaces itself as is you get solutions that aren't quite appropriate because the engineers have created something that they can do rather than gone further solution that maybe should have been done. And nobody wants as an engineer or any profession wants to feel like they are missing, a skill that makes them feel vulnerable. But there's a reality in technology and I'm sure it applies to other professions as well, but particularly in technology, the pace of change is moving so quickly. The can't do you know, the keeping your skills up to date, it's just a constant push and then on your Because it's you, this is brilliant because you are a new CIO or a CTO you've come in. You have, nobody knows you, why you or, there could be some sort of negative comment about predecessor or, all this sort of senior higher ups, all this sort of stuff. So there's an absolute need to establish your authenticity. And ex and get you, can't tell people why it's you, they've gotta kind of believe it haven't they, they've gotta go through a process of trusting you are seeing something in your actions. And then the, cause I think is again, it's fantastic, cuz it's such you've got, it's so simple, but it's actually really sophisticated.

Julie: 15:41

Oh, that's me all over.

Jon: 15:42

This saying, which is, excuse me, for the length of this letter, it would've been a lot shorter. Had I had longer to write it.

Julie: 15:48

Yes.

Jon: 15:49

So by boiling it down to those three, there's a lot to unpack, but on the Cause side, I can see several connections with Cause with Technology teams. One could be, literally the company purpose, there could just be a disassociation at that level. And these could be going on at the same time. There's not one or the other, but the other one could be the way technology is perceived in this company. We're the folks that switch things off and on we're we are responsible for the legacy stuff that doesn't work, that sort of negative. Why do I need to change my password? These sort of negative views could also affect the Cause. So goodness, me, Julie, you've just given me, this is like those three areas to hone in on is, and this is what you're saying, isn't it? This is where you can create your impact,

Julie: 16:38

exactly. It's like being a detective it's I mean, take it back to policing. Why not? It is because what you're saying is what's really going on. That's what you're asking, Ooh, what happened? And to be able to look at a situation. I need to fix this situation in somewhere, or probably arrest somebody that way. But here we wanna fix this situation. We wanna make it easier. We want people to do the thing we want'em to do. We want'em to enjoy it. We want to buy our staff or invest in us or whatever it might be. So with the, cause the massive thing is, like I said, it's a bit like being a detective. If I'm looking at what's going on, how is this happening and what do I need to do to fix it? The problem is quite often that we jump to, what do I need to do to fix this thing? And we press all the buttons we possibly can not knowing what they are. And so what we are doing here is we are saying stop for a second and ask yourself three simple questions. Is it them in terms of their skill or their confidence? Is it me? Am. Let's just say a nice person be, being kind there or is it the fact that they don't think it's the right thing to do? So it's nothing to do with me, but is it the right thing to do when you start to do that, then that's gonna give you three roots of what do I need to do? And then you can break it down even further, like you were just saying, well, is it the bigger cause the whole company? I don't like working for this company because I don't like their values or something like that. Or I think they make too much money or whatever it is, I dunno. Or is it like, well, my department's gone to pot now and we used to do it nicely and I don't like it like this anymore. And I preferred it the way. I do know someone that, some something a little bit, perhaps a little bit more personal, but still to do with the way in which we do what we do. If you start going into branches, you are starting to work out the clues of what's wrong and how can I fix it? And then you can look at yourself and say, right, okay. If it's me what do I need to do differently? And you get conscious of how you are, if it's the cause. Do they understand it? Do they agree with it or do they, if they've never seen it, I mean, crickey some, so many times we see, the vision for the company, the strategies and things like that that the people, sitting there on their computers tapping away, I've never even seen. So how can they believe in a cause they haven't seen, so it might not be that they don't agree it's this. They might not know or understand how that actually boils down to what they do on a daily basis. So there's lots of different things. And that's what we do in the course is we're saying we're going down these branches, let's say, and then we are looking at specifically, okay. So have you told them what are we going down that cause branch at the moment, but have you told'em what it is? Do they agree with it? Did they come up with that or did you just, I mean, we were talking earlier on about first hundred days, did you just completely overlay that with what was already there? And so they're like, hang on a second. What's going on? So there's lots of reasons within each of those branches as to why. The thing you wanna do, isn't gonna happen

Jon: 19:28

Your detective analogy, understanding what's really going on. A couple of things that you've said there that's that have chimed with me. If you look at a large project and actually I think your philosophy scales any level, you can apply it. The CIO can apply it to their whole organization, could apply it to a team level but also could apply it to all the important stakeholders as well, folks that are receiving particularly automation, cuz automation can be very invasive or invasive might be the wrong word, but very disruptive to people's day to day. So again and the reason why I'm mentioning all of this is because when something isn't working. If a program isn't delivering, it's not always because of a technology problem, it's not because we haven't worked out how to scale the number of sessions that we can produce. For a consumer facing portal beyond a hundred thousand. I mean, you do get problems like that, but I think this is the one where you can get the I've forgotten the term for it, but it's almost like the sort of invisible resistance

Julie: 20:23

good

Jon: 20:23

if those folks if you've got those well, any one of those three, but worst case, all three, you can have the best technical solution, project, business case, and all the rest of it, but you'll just be sitting there going, well, why

Julie: 20:38

it not working?

Jon: 20:38

And people can throw, can lob hand grenades in can't they and actually, I don't wanna say it like that because it sort of almost sounds like they're at fault, but they're not it's because you haven't walked down. Path in their shoes to really understand where they're coming from. And actually, if you can decode that, things can be a lot better. Is that right?

Julie: 20:58

I think, yeah, I think decoding is a really good word for it really, because it is, it's a puzzle. And sometimes we are looking at it thinking, oh, it's about the technology and I hear sometimes, the frustration, when you when this isn't working, when the project's not working as a CTO, CIO, whatever you are, to be honest, anybody, when your projects is not working, you feel frustrated. And to be honest, that's exactly when you need a coach, to be honest, because you need to come out of that because the more frustrated you get, because things aren't working. So you're like, I dunno, why not working? So I'm gonna make some assumptions. I'm gonna fill in the blanks, which are probably wrong, cuz you're not asking, you're not stopping for long enough to say what's going on. Why don't, why aren't you happy? And when you, if you don't stop you, you still dunno the answer. So like I like your grenade's answer is that you're just, you're pressing buttons. I think, if I, my analogy would be around, like you're sitting at one of those old fashioned computer screens with the flashing lights and you're just pressing everything to see what's gonna happen instead of just saying, eh, on a. turn it off and start again. And ask yourself some better questions around why

Jon: 21:59

I've got to just brain little brainwave. I dunno what you are like if I don't say them out loud, I forget them or I'll write them down. But one of the things that you've just struck me is, it's it's really apparent when you're talking about coaching that you're coaching individuals, you're coaching other human beings. Yeah. That's the sort of coaching approach, but actually I think you could apply your coaching philosophy to a delivery program. Do you see what I mean? Because if obviously all delivery, everything is made up of people. So you are still coaching towards people but you are framing it maybe at a program level. So if you take on the task of coaching, the CIO CTO and all the other iOS you've got a, there's a lot going on, and you're going to achieve, you could still move things forwards and it'll be great, but you could also very specifically sort of almost say, give me a program where sort of, it's a bit of a mystery as to why you're not making as much progress as you think you And you've sort of exhausted quite a few of the technical roots. This is the sort of thing that could really unpack. I mean, they call it business change, don't they and change management. But you know, in my experience, a lot of it's all based on human beings being lined up and running or running in the same direction.

Julie: 23:11

Or not as the case may be

Jon: 23:12

Or not. Yeah. Or absolutely, or, herding cats is one of the expressions, but what's your what's your thought on that?

Julie: 23:18

If you think about it, that's what if I'm an agent of change? I'm not put, take me out of this for a minute as a coach, but if I'm in a position where I'm running a program I'm an agent of change. And I love that herding cats, because if you're not careful, that's what you get. You get a whole bunch of people running around doing their thing. Okay. So capable. And this is the dangerous part, I talked about can't do well most of the time they can do, but we're not, we're, we are just sending'em off into all different directions or they're choosing their own direction. So it is like herding cats. And yes, because what I'm saying is whether we do it for the, for a CTO or whoever it might be we are saying, apply this to what's going on in any situation, including the whole program. So if we were to say let's look at this, is this a can't do work? Do or don't do well, hang on, they're running around night, headless chickens, doing their own thing. That's a bit of a, don't do thing. So what is going on there? Oh, we haven't told them where we're supposed to be going. We haven't even asked them to buy into it yet. So they are like a herd of cats because they're clever people doing their own thing. They're running their own agenda

Jon: 24:19

So there's a management style called command and control. It's normally referred to, in the change context is not particularly favorable, it's sort of a, but there is an element of command and control, when you're having to do something, without thinking, urgent situation without thinking, being able to do act really effectively without hesitation and all that. It's got a, it's got a place for it, but I think when command and control is used in a business context, it's not used in that positive sense. It's used more in the. Just do what I say kind of approach. And when you were talking about a group of folks who are in the they, they don't do it because they don't believe in the cause I think often they're not even, they're not even on the list to be communicated to. They're kind of just taken as they, well, they should just do it,

Julie: 25:05

Just do it. Yeah.

Jon: 25:06

Do you see that? So as part of the coaching, sometimes opening up the CIO to being more, a little bit more, people-centric

Julie: 25:15

Communicative. Yes, absolutely. so when I, let's look at the three, I'm just gonna break down the three, three areas that, that our program works on. The first thing we are saying is that you have to be confident, confidently connected to the people that you are around, whether that be your boss, your peers, your team, okay. You need to have a relationship with them. They need to want to, going back to that, want to won't do you need to have a relationship with them and you, but you also need to be able to be relevant and inspiring to them. You, they need to know what's in it for them. They need to understand and be inspired by what you are, what you're talking about and that cause and all of those things and they need to have an experience of you that makes them want to join you as well. So they've got to. Come together with you on all of those things, but if you don't even tell them, the old proverbial phrasing, what is it fed on something I can't say on this podcast probably. And kept in the dark, and that's that's probably how they feel. Because if you don't tell them, how can they buy into it and also what you do when you don't tell people where you're trying to go. Let me ask you a question, Jon, this is my favorite question is if you and I were going on holiday and I came to you and I said, Jon I've booked this and I'm getting sense of surprise. What's the first thing you're gonna say to me,

Jon: 26:31

Not as a surprise as me. I didn't

Julie: 26:33

apart from the fact I'm saying you on holiday, but let's

Jon: 26:36

to have a chat with the misses, but no. Sorry. So we're going on holiday and it's

Julie: 26:39

I'm yeah. You're probably gonna wanna know, like, where we going?

Jon: 26:43

No, well, yeah, I suppose you are leading the witness a little bit. If you don't mind me saying Julie, but I could say, well, I'd like to know where we're going.

Julie: 26:50

What else would you say just out of interest? Cuz I would think my first thing would be where are we going?

Jon: 26:55

Yeah, no, I'd be, but I'd be really surprised cuz I'm someone who plans so much, those sorts of things don't happen to me. So I would say, yeah, I would wanna know. Okay. After they came over the initial shock. Yeah. Where are we going now? What, why have you surprised me? That would be probably the question.

Julie: 27:12

there's another question. We won't do that. But if you if you are saying we are gonna go somewhere, we're going on a trip or we're going on a, we're going out somewhere. We're going to dinner or we're gonna do something. The question is where do I go? Where we going? And for me it's if you dunno where you're going, you don't know how to pack for your holiday. So you're gonna end up packing your skiing clothes. When you need a bikini or you pack your bikini. When you need a skiing clothes and you don't feel comfortable and you don't for me, I'll be having my arms folded saying, I'm not doing it until you tell me where we're going, because. I want to be able to have the right stuff with me. I want to be able to buy into it. And I want to know, I want to do that thing. And so it's a bit like that when you've got people in, who are kept in the dark about things, it's that if you don't tell them, then how can they go fast in any one direction? And I always talk about if you imagine that your business is a boat and it, and you're trying to take that boat to America, you are asking these people to help you make the boat go faster. Okay. Well, if I don't know where the boat's going, or I don't know where I'm going on holiday, I don't go fast in any one direction. I go around in circles. I do what I think is right. I do what I'm used to doing. I do what I'm comfortable doing, or I bake my own stuff up because nobody likes coming to work. Honestly, nobody likes coming to work, doing a bad job. So we do what we think is the right thing. But if you don't tell them the agenda, then they are gonna make it up. And that's when you get hurt in.

Jon: 28:34

Yeah. And I've also heard that described as wheel spin and that the phrase I'm not particularly keen on, but it's like the busy fool. Because you are, in the whole scheme of things, you are you're doing lots of things, but you're not making that, that contribution.

Julie: 28:47

no, because we dunno where we're going.

Jon: 28:49

I wanted to just briefly go back to persuading the CIO who's on the people journey about how important it's to communicate with their team beyond the it's about respecting people. And it's just a good thing to do, cuz I fully subscribe to that. But that group, if you wanted to be a little bit more pointed about it, you would say that group actually possesses a huge amount of power in the organization. If your delivery relies on, 80 professionals all pulling in the same direction, if you haven't got them on side, It's basically that's the power that's, that you are that's pushing the pro that's powerful enough to push your program

Julie: 29:27

Yeah.

Jon: 29:27

off target.

Julie: 29:28

Or who is it that said, no, man is an island. I can't remember now somebody clever. But yeah, if it, if you think about it, if you are the one who's trying to do everything, there's only 24 hours in a day. So you can only do so much. Your job as a leader is to leverage the people that you have. So you've got 80 lots of things happening. You've got 80 things going. And so the more clear they are that are, they're going in the same direction as you together, and let's go back to making the boat go faster. Imagine they're all putting their oar in at the same time. If they're putting their oar in with the rhythm, the same rhythm, the same direction, and they're all working and they know where they're going, and they're all doing it, powerfully. then you're gonna go faster. But in the right direction, the minute you take the communication out, some will be rowing really fast still, but they'll be rowing in the wrong direction. Some of them will be like, well, I dunno where I'm going. So I'm gonna stop. And they'll be sticking there oar in the air, not wanting to put it in because they don't know which way to put it in. So they dabble and they mess about maybe that's like your spinning wheels, and some of them will be down by saying, oh, I'm gonna go in the other direction. They're gonna be sticking there. oar right. In and pushing it the other way, because they don't wanna, they don't wanna play that game. And so what you end up with is this gaggle of people rowing in different directions. So the communication. You may think, oh, they don't need to know about our strategy. They don't need to know any of this stuff, but actually they need to feel part of it. They need to feel that they can buy into that. As much as you want investors to buy into what you're trying to achieve, they need to buy into what you are trying to achieve because the minute that they think, you know what, this is a really good thing. I really believe in this. That's when you get somebody who yes, you're gonna pay them and you should be paying them really well, but you are, they're not there for the money. They're there for the thrill of the ride the end result. They're there to make something better that they believe in as much as you believe in, but how can they believe in it or buy into it if you haven't told them,

Jon: 31:22

Yes.

Julie: 31:22

or you tell them half a story, or you lie, and that's worst case, and you keep it quiet.

Malcom: 31:27

This Podcast is Sponsored by Fairmont Recruitment- leading the way in technology recruitment across the UK and Europe.

Julie: 31:32

I often call it, drawing the strings. If this is the big picture, how do I link what I do on a daily basis? I'm talking about this, one of your 80 here, how, what do I go left? I used to say this a lot. Do we go left or right out of the police station? Yeah. You get your car and you can go anywhere. You like, do I go left or right out of the police station? Well, I don't know unless I know what the priorities are, unless I know what the strategy is, unless I know what the vision is now, the minute I know that there's, I know lots of little old ladies getting burgled in Hatfield or somewhere like that, then I know. Right? Well, I can now choose. I can make good decisions in the business. Even as one of your 80 people, I can make really good decisions if I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. So I couple that with my amazing technical skill, and now I can make good decisions. Well, how about that for leverage? So now I don't have to keep. Having somebody knock on my door and say, what's next? What's next? Because all these 80 people are going around going, well, I know this is the right thing to do because I know where we are going. So I'll just get on with this and I'll make some really good decisions in the minute. We talked about a little bit about can do, but not confident, or this is some of the stuff where the competent comes in, because now I'm like, okay, I can make good decisions because I know they'll be right. I've got some certainty about my ability and my direction, which means, yeah, I could, I'll take a risk because I'm like, yeah, I know that's the right thing. I think that's good. I'm not gonna go and knock on Bob's door every five seconds and annoy him because, or her because I'm certain and therefore you've got a very efficient group of people working in a direction that they know without you having to keep pushing the buttons all the time. So when you say about why should we communicate? Why should we. Why should we care? There's a massive what's in it for me, as in what's in it for them is you are gonna get people who don't have to keep asking you what to do all the time.

Jon: 33:27

I've heard that described as heuristics so you give people enough information. So like you say that they're able to operate to a large extent independently. But. Even though they're operating independently, their choices of what they do is pushing or pulling all in the right direction, in the same direction. You've got that. So that's sort of like a gives them the the freedom, like you say to work with their own initiative, which I would've thought is gonna be more fulfilling as well, because nobody likes to have a situation where, okay, I've done this task. Now I'm gonna go back and ask about them. I mean, that's a horrible way to work. And I know people even at very senior levels do still have that experience in some instances, which I find really well, it's not so much shocking. Cause I don't think there's anything that can shock us anymore. But certainly you think, well, this has got to be the end of an era of how

Julie: 34:18

It should be because you're, de-skilling, you're demotivating and de-skilling people, because if you take it away from them for long enough, then what you find is they stop trying. So they will just come and ask you what's next. What's next? And they'll do exactly what you tell them to do. I mean, exactly. If you give people the ability to make decisions within the business, within a context of the direction that you want to go, so you give them a framework in which. You, they can do that. Then you are safe and they're safe. You're not just saying off you go and make every decision you like, but if you do that, then you give them you're respecting them. You're giving them confidence in themselves and you are giving them confidence in making those decisions. And therefore they grow. They get more excited about what they're doing. They'll come up with even better ideas as well. And again, you're gonna look much better if you do this because they are they're they wanna be there, that they want to be part of the team. That's going somewhere that they know where they're going.

Jon: 35:16

Let's just check where we are in the can't do won't do don't do where are we in that process in terms of covering that off?

Julie: 35:24

That's the top level. Okay. And so when we are working, we have to go down those three branches. I break things down into nine areas within those three areas that will basically give you the skill to be able to do the decoding as you call it you can then say, well, that's the problem. Now I know what to do about it. So we are changing your mindset and we are looking at behaviors. So we are looking at how I show up. So that then when I decode it, I'm like, okay, I get it. I need to do this differently. We talked about getting connected and understanding people. So first thing we need to do is understand who on earth is in. Understanding our audience, but I don't mean thousands of people in front of you. I mean, whoever you come into contact with understanding the people in the room and you, Jon asked me earlier on about, oh, are we all the same? Are we a type, and we look at behavioral profiling within the program. We use something called DISC, which I absolutely love. And we look at four main types of behavioral profile and communication style. It's not personality, it's just the way in which we work. And we look at those people and say, what does that tell us about how we might need to communicate with them or how we might need to motivate them or how we might need to. Look after'em a little bit differently, all of those things. So it enables us to build a connection with them. So we start to look at, let's get to know the people in, I call the people in the room. Yeah. And so that's the first thing is giving us some tools because we can't just what we could with finger in the air, but let's give us ourselves a tool that gives us some ideas of understanding how people might be showing up that may be the same as us, or it may be different to us. And within that, how do we celebrate those differences? I'm gonna say, okay, rather than just thinking that you need the same clone of yourself in your business, every single time, which you don't, by the way, then we look at growing the relationships and the trust. What do I need to do to build trust in those relationships. And, you asked me earlier on about being a coach. to be honest, I think that. A CTO as a coach is a great option. Because here, what we are looking at is how do you build rapport? How do you meet them, where they are and take them where you want to go. And the only happens if you build trust. So we need to look at actively and consciously taking an interest in people and building trust. Okay.We also, then we need within that building getting connected with your audience, let's say is we need to look at what happens when it doesn't work. The times when you've got a bit of conflict and you've got a bit of resistance, which is probably quite a lot when you've got change, all those things. So we need to understand how do I deal with conflict? How do I say what needs to be said, how do I deal with difficult people, which there could be a fair view. And how do I have the confidence to do that? Because a lot of the time, especially I think. In this kind of world, we tend to avoid some of that. And it ends up as passive aggressive problems that we get more old and hairy and we don't deal with. So we need to, within that building trust, we need to be able to say what needs to be said in a way that builds relationships rather than breaks them down.

Jon: 38:30

And Julie, I was just gonna think on that point it is a bit of a cliche, but they say, if you can get the person who's most vocal against something to turn around and go, actually, I think it's a great idea that they're very credible and they become this sort of power to support the process. But I'm not suggesting that you sort of nefariously, hypnotize them to come around. What I see with those folks is people who have still got the passion for the, for where they work, they still care. And sometimes if you are in a scenario where you are. Engaging with your audience, as you say, and you don't get any resistance at all, you can sort of think, oh, okay, well actually I am getting resistance because they're just going through the motions. They're sort of the silent

Julie: 39:10

Yeah. It's the

Jon: 39:11

people are there doing email. They're not really in the room as it were.

Julie: 39:15

In terms of the connection side of things and building relationships, that's the kind of areas that we are working on in the program. And we split that down. We then move on to intentional impact. That's second area. The intentional impact is about how do I show up? All this other stuff is about understanding people and this, but this is about me and my behavior. So I dunno if you've ever had a mood Hoover in the room, where somebody sucks the energy out the room, or, gives you all their problems and you feel worse when they come in the room rather than when they leave. What we're talking about here is that me? And actually this is where you definitely need a coach because this is not the easiest thing is to say, well, what am I what you know, who am I let's say? And what's my impact. So here, and when I call talk about intentional impact, first thing we need to know is where am I? What is my impact? So we look at getting feedback, getting an understanding of, well, what do different kinds of people think of me? And that's not always the easiest thing, but this is where it requires that trust that we were talking about earlier on.

Jon: 40:14

are being the diplomatic team for that

Julie: 40:17

Yeah. The hard

Jon: 40:17

I've had moments in my career. Where I've had that sharing. And I found it quite challenging to start off with, but then afterwards I thought, okay, now I understand that and often it's completely disassociated with what I was trying to convey. So folks who have worked with me is particularly on really intense projects, sometimes throw chocolate bars at me, which obviously can't do anymore on a virtual meeting, but they always used to sort of give me a chocolate bar to make sure I had, like my sugar levels were in check. That was something that I didn't realize I did. And the other thing I noticed more from when we're on video was that I sometimes have a resting face, which is not. It isn't the sort of face that's saying, yes, come on. Speak to me, I want to listen. It's quite a and and that's just something that happens when I think so it's quite hard to

Julie: 41:08

Sometimes you have to say to people like, are you happy? Are you okay? You don't look happy. And they're like yeah. I'm really happy. I'm good. I'm just thinking you're like, yeah. Can you tell your face, because we don't know what the output is sometimes because we are just doing we're in the moment we're doing the thing we're doing, like you said, we're either thinking or we're, I dunno what we're doing, but whatever we do, we often do on autopilot because we are in the moment. And it's a bit like, when you drive to work, if ever we drive to work ever again but when you drive to work, sometimes you get there and you look around and you think, how did I get here? Because you don't remember the drive because you're on autopilot. And so we also don't remember perhaps how we drove and this is the same thing. So we've got to get to the point where we're like, actually honest, because I could give you, I could give you what I think my behavior's and oh, yes, I'm a really nice person. And I respect people all the time or I listen to people and then other people are like, no, you don't. No, you don't do that. I dunno if you've heard of a thing called the Jahari window, but I love the Jahari. Yeah. And that's where we might use this. And to help people to understand is that there's stuff you know about yourself to be true. You're resting face, but you have no clue how you're showing up in that one moment. Okay. And the problem is that people are watching you. Okay. Those people you just said are in your team are all watching you. Okay. And this is where we get to this. Won't do thing if we're not careful, because if they don't like what's happening or it makes them feel bad or they don't understand why you did what you did. So let's go back to your resting face again, if they didn't have that conversation with you. But what humans, what we do is we fill in gaps. So I'm gonna look at your face and go, well, he doesn't look very happy with me because. We have a lot of stuff going on inside that will probably apply it to us. And so we'll be like, maybe he's not happy with what I've said, or maybe he's not happy with what I did, or man work's not good enough People will extrapolate what you've done and think it's up to, think it's something they've done, which then means that there's the conflicts starting. Okay. There's resistance and there's that you make them feel bad, even though you didn't mean to. And they don't know that you didn't mean to. So here we then get resistance and then they change their behavior because of it because behavior breeds behavior. Okay. So if we don't get conscious of what we are doing and what we're showing up as we can't learn that somebody thinks that we are in a mood or we are grumpy or whatever the thing is, they, we don't even know that they think that's what's going on and they've just made up a story in their head about the reason for that. Which then impacts on their ability to work on their ability to do this thing they wanna do, or to have a relationship with you in a work environment. And so we have to get conscious of those things. We have to ask people, how am I showing up? Which is super important. So we do that. We hold your hand

Jon: 43:54

Julie on, on that, just a just a couple of anecdotes because just really everything you're saying striking such a strong call with my own experience. I've been fortunate enough to implement technology projects all around the world. And so not only have you got the frame of reference of the organization you're in, but also the kind of the. Framework. Over in the states I was involved on a project and the pep talk I gave the team was a pep talk that works really well in London. Was pretty direct. It was getting into a lot of the negatives but in a sense of look, this is what we've got to fix kind of way. And the feedback I'd got was that the team were kind of ready to quit. I mean, this is literally I'd even just met them. The culture was much more of a, but we can do it. And let's think of the, the sort of, I dunno if you've seen Ted lasso on Netflix, he's this amazing football, American football coach that comes in and coaches a British football team. So it's a really interesting kind of clash of styles. So culturally. There was something missing to kind of, to open that up, but there is a sort of an inner Ted lasso. You definitely need to have a look, Julie,

Julie: 44:59

I will. I think I will. Yeah.

Jon: 45:01

it quite funny, but then if you just did the opposite. Okay. So imagine you've traveled from the states and you've come to England and you're doing exactly the same discussion that you might get accused of being at more David, Brent, The Office, the only way I can work it out is just be authentically me, which is somewhere between Ted lasso and David Brent, I think rather than trying to act out a, or I must do it in this way, but when you say to me, Jon, you need to, you do need to change some of these things. How do I change and still remain authentic? Cuz otherwise you kind of. Throw in a question like at the end of a sentence, I go, oh, sorry, Julie, how are you? It's really obvious that I haven't even

Julie: 45:42

let me just check my tick list of what I'm supposed to be

Jon: 45:45

That kind of how do you do that?

Julie: 45:46

I don't want you to change who you are. You are you okay? So you put something out there, look at the feedback and understand, or did that work or not, and it's not about changing your whole personality. It's about saying, did that serve me? That behavior? Cause behavior is not you. Behavior is just a thing that you do. Okay. So if it did it serve me in this situation, so let's take you in America. It's okay, I'm gonna go do it this way. Does that actually serve? No, it didn't serve me. Okay. What might serve me? How can I adapt what I do here? Okay. And if he answers, yes, it did. And then you do more of it. That's how we learn from when we were little, isn't it really, we try something out and if it didn't kill us, we do it again, probably. And so what we're asking for is to get feedback. So we are saying what's working, what's not, we're not saying don't be you, but what we are saying is be sensitive to the needs of what's going on around you. And that's a big part of what we are looking at over here is why do people get resistant to what you are trying to do is because you have to take them with you. You have to fulfill their needs as much as your needs. It has to be a win-win situation and the way to make it a win-win is to, just to be perceptive and look at that. And. okay. Is that working? Did that resonate with them? No, it didn't. Okay. What do they actually need? And it might be your Americans needed more rah and to feel more positive about something rather than being told, it's all nightmare.

Jon: 47:11

Actually Julie, as you've just said that we do have a, an audience across the Atlantic. So just for all listeners, either side of the Atlantic, it was a general perception. I don't wanna do sort of do a national stereotype. There's definitely folks, either side of the pond who will want more of a positive than, there's a kind of a style isn't there that you need to adapt to each individual. I so I didn't wanna kind of stereotype our colleagues in the states or indeed in, in the UK,

Julie: 47:37

I don't like stereotyping anybody. So taking us back to that behavioral profile, it's about looking and getting feedback. And that's exactly the point we're trying to make is that you can go, if you want to go to America and do a stereotype thing, and then you are gonna fail because that's not what they need. You need to ask yourself, is it working? What's the feedback I'm getting and adjusting on that feedback loop. Yeah. And so wherever you are looking for information to make your next decision as to how you go about things. And you have your preferred style, let's say, and it might be a different style to when you're at home with the husband, wife, or significant other, or any of those things. But, that might be a different style, but you have a preferred style, but it doesn't always work in every situation. And if you want to be a leader, you have to be perceptive about that. the people who don't change their style or adapt their style. Let's say for a situation, are the people that that, that just say, well, I'm me. And you all have to change around me. And they're the people that we don't wanna work with. Yeah. And so with this, what we do, if you can just imagine is not to change who you are or how you are. You step into something, you step forward into something you adapt and you can step back because we are all in our, we all have our flow and your flow might be a certain way, but you can do some do differently. You don't have to be different, you can do different. Okay. And you step in, you are maybe a bit out of flow. It's not the way you would normally do it, but you know, that's the right way to do it for that thing. And then you can step back into where you are, but it's that adaptability that makes you a leader. Let's design what we want instead. So we kind of started to work towards it, which is once you know where you are and what's good, what's working, or what do you want to stop, start or continue. And so we then look at, okay, what do I wanna change? How do I go about being slightly different and doing slightly different in the context of what's necessary for the situation I'm in for my audience. We have to be adult enough about it to be able to take this on board. That's what I wanna say. So I have seen a lot of people through a tantrum at. this point which is I don't wanna change. Why should I change? It would be lovely if both did and both adapted, but someone has to go first and you are the leader and you are being coached by me. So it's your turn. So there's the hard, there's the tough love bit coming

Jon: 50:05

out When you get that sort of reaction, that means you're very close to affecting change in the individual because that's the point

Julie: 50:12

hurts.

Jon: 50:12

are actually being vulnerable. And they always say, when you what, for certain types of feedback, you feedback about the task, not about the individual, you say, this isn't about you. This is about, we've delivered or something you sort of decoupled the two. But actually with this sort of coaching, you are getting a little bit more into, this is about you, we are having that conversation.

Julie: 50:31

yes. It's about how you show up. So I'm not trying to change people's personality. I'm trying to help them to see that behavior isn't productive

Jon: 50:39

Yes. how and how they present themselves.

Julie: 50:41

Yeah, exactly. And yes, it hurts. Sometimes this piece hurts. And I hear what we need to look at. Is a little bit of transactional analysis around, around the parent adult child model, which I'm not sure if you're, you are familiar with, but you know, we have those ego states of we, we turn up either as a parent and we tell everybody what to do regardless. Or as the child where we just sit there and wait for something, we were talking about waiting for the next thing. Yeah. We can force people into that. If we turn up as parent, we end up treating people like children and they start acting like it. Our people who don't wanna make a decision. Well, that's child mode. They don't you've put them there. Yeah. But we can show up in child mode where we are not ready to be told, told off we don't like it. We throw a tantrum, we don't wanna change. And we don't see the correctness in something let's say so where we need to be. We need to be an adult, which sounds obvious. Doesn't it really? But you believe you me. It doesn't happen very often because people swing between parent, adult, child in working environments all the time especially when their emotions get the better of them. Okay.

Jon: 51:40

that's interesting. So it's when your emotions kick in. That's when you, are you, you you are more susceptible to taking those relationships.

Julie: 51:47

Because you're not logical about things you're emotional about, and then don't get me wrong. Emotional is good to be able to have emotion is good, but when you're not in control of it and you get angry or you get, you're like you're fearful and all those things, it can push us in these directions.

Jon: 52:02

That's when I, that that's when I eat a chocolate bar, Julie,

Julie: 52:04

Yeah, exactly. That's your child mode.

Jon: 52:07

this, okay.

Julie: 52:08

and mine too. Yeah. But you know, like when you see people, oh my gosh. In meetings or something fold their arms because they didn't like something that somebody said, I have to do it now, but they fold their arms and they stick their lip out. And they're like, I'm not gonna say anymore in this meeting because I didn't like that. And I've got the hump, that's not adult mode.

Jon: 52:26

And we've all done. It. I would like to say in my defense, one of the things my children observe is that when I'm thinking my chin goes forwards so I've got, I think it's just, I don't have enough processing power to run everything. So when the brain kicks in, everything else just goes a little bit off or switches goes into low power mode.

Julie: 52:46

Yeah,

Jon: 52:46

that's my defense.

Julie: 52:47

But that's really interesting, John, actually, sorry, just on, on that note. Okay. That the, if that's what happens to you and your children have given you feedback on that, which is what's that's happening there. So imagine that was your staff and you were like, they said to you, like why you was grumpy, after we've had a meeting and you are thinking I'm not grumpy, I'm just thinking don't leave it there.

Jon: 53:11

Yes.

Julie: 53:12

Right. Because if you leave it there, I said that people fill in the gap, right? If you don't say, oh, actually, no, When I'm thinking my chin sticks out. I do look grumpy, but I want you to know that I'm not grumpy at that point. I'm thinking, you'll see these people go oh

Jon: 53:31

no, what they think, Julie, they go, oh, you must think a lot.

Julie: 53:34

Yeah, exactly.

Jon: 53:36

no, I get it now. I totally get it because you are just assuming and you're still not alive to how obvious it is and how it's making other people feel.

Julie: 53:43

Yeah. You are thinking, well, I just do that because I'm, I, that's, I'm thinking, but that's not enough. You have to have the conversation because then people can say, oh, okay. I don't need to get upset about that anymore because now I'm not making, I'm not trying to fill in the gap and make my own reality up. I now know that he's just thinking, great. So this is where this communication comes in. Okay. So we need to be in adult mode because otherwise what you might have done in that situation is either told your kids off for being cheeky. Yeah. Or if it was your staff, you'd be like, well, was it to you getting with your. And you're not open to this, what we might deem criticism, but actually it's an inquiry. It's a misunderstanding. It's well, I don't understand why are you like this? And so when we are in adult mode, we can take that feedback and say, okay, that's a misunderstanding. I need to explain that. Or I need to change. I need to stop doing something. Whatever it might, if it's depending on what it is. And then the last piece in the impactful side of the side of things, I think is about learning to step up and say what needs to be said in a way that people can understand you. So we look at speaking with confidence, like not staying silent about things you really should be speaking about and articulate in a way that people can take it on board as well. And so we are diving into how do I speak up? So people, listen, how do I do I bore people wittless to be quite honest as one, one thing or am I giving them I overwhelming people or am I giving them too much information? I did a blog about this the other day, about simplify to amplify. And that's one of the things that we look at in here is how do I speak with confidence so that people actually listen. And so that's part of that impact is getting again, using the feedback loop is saying, how am I doing and improving on the way in which I show up through, through the things I say, whether that be through presentations or whether that be through meetings or email, even, the actual written word. Absolutely.

Jon: 55:38

I'd like to say I'm guilty of this, but it's just the fact that people seem to be more and more, not really listening. A lot of folks seem to just be in broadcast mode. It's a little bit ironic, cuz this is being broadcast, but you and I are having

Julie: 55:51

yeah, we are listening to each other.

Jon: 55:52

we're listening to each other, but that, that listening piece and being bombarded the impact of social media on just, suppose, just the whole mood music of communicating with each other. Just just wanted to get your thoughts on that. I think I think you'd said social media, isn't very social

Julie: 56:09

Think about the time John, when you were actually listened to somebody sat there and didn't just wait for their opportunity to speak. They actually listened to what you had to say. And I bet you struggled to find a time when somebody really listen. That's the job of the coach by the way, is listening and not having their own agenda. But in, in reality that's an unusual situation. And the reason why I say social media is not social is because we are all, when you think about Tony Robbins does a six human needs, he talks about the six human needs. And one of those is about significance this contribution as well, but significance as well, and the need to feel, heard the need to feel like you are relevant. Well, if nobody's listening in general, conversation is hard enough. Okay. People are jumping in and saying their thing. And they're not really hearing what you've gotta say. Then we take it to social media and it's just multiplied by about a million, because what we see is everybody's putting stuff out there and they're desperate. D people are desperate to be heard. okay. I put stuff out and nobody listens to, if you're listen to this podcast, listen to my stuff, because it might make me feel better but but everybody, whether it be, your 15 year olds or your 50 year olds we wanna be significant. We wanna be heard. And so when people put stuff, on social media, they want a response, it ends up as likes and all those sort of things or comments or whatever, but we're desperate to get it. But reality is, and nobody's actually listening because everybody else just wants to be heard as well. And and because of the way social media is set up, all we are doing is going around like a little hamster wheel of just wanting to be heard all the time yet still nobody's listening. I think it is addictive in a way, because you're trying to press the dopamine button of somebody liking your thing, or and if you were to translate that, what does that mean? It's fit the feeling. being heard. I don't, you can hear, being noticed or heard or valued or seen or any of those things. But having validation, well, of course then you, you keep going and going. And I think it's dangerous because we're not having good. We need to get better, but we're not having good enough face to face conversations where we are being heard. So we are, we're all desperate for this stuff. So we press the button. And we end up feeling bad and feeling worse because still nobody's listening. and there's maybe a bit of a grim realization, that somebody else just wants to put their picture in. Everybody's taking their selfies and they're pouting at the camera and they're stopping what they're doing and they're not enjoying Disney, for example, to stop and take a picture and smile at the camera with their pout and make it out while they're having a great time. And then they stop put the camera away and go back feeling miserable and not talking to anybody because they're going to social media to get the validation that they could have got from the conversation that they could have with the people that they were with. Which I find a little frustrating. And so for me, I think social media is not very social. If you don't build relationships, you've got to have conversations with people and you've got to be curious and genuinely curious and taking that back to you as a leader, within, as a CTO that's true. Even more so here is that being genuinely curious and interested in people and actually listening to them will build trust faster than anything else. I know.

Jon: 59:27

I'm not saying that I'm perfect in any way, cuz we all go through stages or, meetings where you don't listen and you don't, You go off the boil. But when I am able to listen to folks and put that investment, obviously you do get trust over time, but what you get professionally is just amazing insight into engineering and software engineering. People will start to discuss, where their current kind of personal cutting edge technology question is. Because, they'll be confident to speak to you in a point of like problem solving or something like that. So what you end up doing is making available to yourself a much, much deeper seam of technical knowledge, because you're not having a superficial conversation

Julie: 1:00:10

And they trust

Jon: 1:00:10

And you're not pretending to listen, that's even worse, and so Julie, how with the pressures that we have with time, everything, our whole lives are ruled by the hour slots, in our calendars with the pressures of time. How do you make time to listen? Or maybe you're gonna say, if you don't make time to listen, it's a false, it's a false saving cuz you'll end up spending more time, with the consequences of. Not if I've just answered my own

Julie: 1:00:36

You have answered your own question, yeah. And I agree is that it I'll go back to that thing where I said there's only 24 hours in a day, it, this is about leverage. And the way to leverage is to have people help you. And the way to have people help you is that they want to and can. Help you. And the way they want to is because they feel respected. They feel heard, they feel validated and they feel that you are interested in their ideas. So unless you actually listen to them, then they're gonna think, well, I know the answer. This is a classic. I know the answer, but I'm not gonna tell John because he's a, because he doesn't listen anyway. So I'm

Jon: 1:01:13

doesn't deserve it. He's not listening to me. Why would I do that?

Julie: 1:01:16

No. So you go back to being a, what you described as a busy fool, because you are on your hamster wheel you've got to utilize the resources that you have around you, but the only way those resources are going to help you is if they feel good about you is at your doorbell. Again, I like this.

Jon: 1:01:33

it is. It's like I'm at the Waterloo station

Julie: 1:01:35

Yeah, but I tell you, I just gotta tell you a funny story. You can keep this interview but it just made me laugh yesterday. I completely embarrassed myself on a live that I was doing because I had my windows open. Cause it was so hot. And I've been asking we are getting a a wood burning stove and I've been asking this guy to come around for ages and he's busy, so he hasn't come around. And then my neighbor who knows him, brought him over literally while I was in the middle of my Live and put his head through the window was like, hello. I'm just like,

Jon: 1:02:02

you were live on LinkedIn yesterday, weren't

Julie: 1:02:04

you should see it. It's so it's just, I'm like,

Jon: 1:02:06

But that's excellent because that's like live television, things

Julie: 1:02:09

Uh, it was like that BL that bloke on the news reader that had his kid coming in and he was like, get out. I thought you can't, you shouldn't do that. Don't do that. You ought incorporate the

Jon: 1:02:17

no. And then You are then conflicted because you're in the real world with a real person who doesn't know at all the situation you're.

Julie: 1:02:25

No

Jon: 1:02:26

But you've also got your virtual world with your audience. So that's brilliant.

Julie: 1:02:28

One of the things about me is that I'm not trying to pout the camera I should, but I'm not trying to pout the camera. I'm trying to be me because what an effort really that's the other thing about social media is how much of an effort, how stressful is it to try to be something that you're not, And this applies to anyone listening here who is a leader. If you are not authentically you and you are trying to be somebody else or pretend that you're something else and you pretend for example that you have no fear or that you are perfect and you don't let people see that side of you. It's just like having to put your makeup on every five minutes. And, pretend that you are perfect is stressful and tiring exhausting, in fact. And so I don't think people should do that. I think that you should be able to show the real you. And the funny thing is when people see the real, you, they like that better than the one that makes them feel. that's the other thing, because the more you can be vulnerable and show that you are just a human and you sometimes get it wrong or you sometimes don't know what the answer is and you need their help. Then they're going to be much more likely to see you as somebody who they want to help, and they can help you give you that. And they can put themselves out for you because they see that's genuine and it's vulnerable rather than you sticking yourself on a pedestal and pretending that you don't need anything and that you are perfect, cuz they're not gonna build that rapport with that person. So I think that's really important.

Jon: 1:04:00

Absolutely. Absolutely. we talked about part of the structure of the Goes over 12 weeks. You pick 12 weeks for a particular reason? Is there, do you have to build in time to reflect? I mean,

Julie: 1:04:12

There's nine accelerators of which I've talked about six so far. But we have to set the scene cuz if you don't set context in anything, it's the same as not knowing where you're going in your vision. If you don't set context and you don't understand what you're trying to achieve, then there's no point in just diving straight into something, which I think we quite tempted to do quite often is just let's get in and start especially certain behavioral types that they love to just get on with it. And we run headlong into all of the problems. So we start off with that first module of really just assessing what is it we're trying to do and where are we going? And where are we now? We then have our nine accelerators in the middle of that. We're gonna be assessing how we're doing, what we're doing and where, you know what's right. What's not, what do we need to adjust? And the last one is, well, what do we do with all of this now? Because we can learn all this stuff, but John, unless you apply it all the time, then it's really not worth learning. Yeah. And that's why it's a coaching program as much as

Jon: 1:05:03

yeah. And if you get it, if you get it out, the book it's like trying to this is a personal experience, frustration trying to improve your golf by reading about it. You can, you become really good at the theory. But sadly that doesn't really translate to the course. So you've got

Julie: 1:05:17

no.

Jon: 1:05:18

you've got to actually do it, and you've got to have that visceral contact with a coach and and go through real examples.

Julie: 1:05:24

Well, and what we focusing on here is you need to understand the concepts, the training. Yeah. So we have the modules that you, that we go through, the trainings are all there, but doing that, as you say, is just like trying to play golf from a book. And then we have coaching sessions every week. And in between that, this is the beauty of doing this is that you then go and implement because even the coaching session isn't worth doing, if you don't do the action in. You've got to learn the concepts and you can learn those in the modules. You've got to have the coaching because that's, what's gonna keep you accountable and it's gonna help you to get yourself in that adult space to make change to yourself. Okay. But you also have to implement in between it's like the sandwich filling, I suppose, is that you've got to go back into your role workplace, I've learned this thing. I'm now gonna try that you're gonna go in, you're gonna pick someone and go that's relevant for that person. I am gonna do something differently now I'm gonna test it.

Jon: 1:06:20

I've done a total of eight years. Part-time study whilst working in my career. So I did five years. Part-time computer science degree and I did three years. Part-time MBA those are really hard yards cuz you give up a lot of weekends. Summers go, it's just, it's really hard work, but what was amazing about it was I was able to apply what I was learning immediately. Into the context of where I was working. Which kind of made it even harder because the impact was so strong. I was kind of, just basically, going full on. So when you talk about the, you have the training, then you apply. I mean, personally, I would say it's one of the most powerful ways, not just to learn, but to remember everything

Julie: 1:07:02

Yeah,

Jon: 1:07:03

do something, you remember it a lot easier than just sort of writing down the theory. So that's was gonna be one of the questions in those 12 weeks. Do, are you giving me loads of homework? Have I got an assignment to write, are you gonna say to me, Jon, it's a 5,000 word document and if you don't get it in on Wednesday, you're gonna fail.

Julie: 1:07:21

Could you think of anything worse than a, than an essay to have to write when I've just said that actually implementation is what we're about now. So we have worksheets a one page, A4 that says, how are you gonna implement? It's not gonna say exactly this, but you know, like the purpose of it is to say, what did that mean to me? What am I gonna take from that? So I'm gonna assess that and what am I gonna do? So I'm gonna go now and speak to Barb or whatever and it's gonna help. So all the workshops are there to worksheets there to help you to stop for a second, get off your hamster wheel and pay attention to what that you've just learned rather than just learning it. The worksheets are there to give you 20 minutes of reflection or half an hour of doing something and not, can you imagine having to to actually read all those essays and the effort that would be in which, and it would be of no value to anybody?

Jon: 1:08:09

I was just wondering during the 12 weeks, are there moments where you have, or you anticipate of t'da moments? Typically after this session, people, when they come back, for the next session they have these kind of revelation moment of revelation, or, sometimes there are moments aren't there where you think, oh my goodness, I was in a meeting. It literally all came together.

Julie: 1:08:30

Yeah. And I realized that's what you were talking about, Julie. Yeah. Well, that happens all the time and that's where we share that because we have a chat group as well. So that's the other part of it is to have a community where we can say I had a really bad day today because this happened and Bob was a idiot and I'd, ah, how do I deal with that? Or share my wins? No, this was brilliant. I just realized what you meant or something like that. And so that's important to have it there and, or in the coaching session. So there's various ways of doing that, but it's important that we share as a community because we also that's the other way of learning, which is learning from other people.

Jon: 1:09:02

This approach could be applied at so many different levels. I know, we focused it on the CIO CTO, but actually could be done. Those groups could be done in at team level, could be a program that you eventually work through your whole technology organization, or even the folks you could use this program as a precursor to a big transformational change as well and then, and everyone who goes through it, you are mitigating the risk of adoption of the technology itself. So you're getting that in the business case, but the longer term business cases you are getting, investing in people you are gonna get so many more benefits out of this as you go through your organization because you

Julie: 1:09:39

Yeah.

Jon: 1:09:39

to create a culture of listening and, you know, alignment and everything really that are sort of that you need.

Julie: 1:09:45

And also, mean, I would absolutely advocate that you should work through this with everybody, all those levels, but equally you can work on pieces of this as well. For example, if you've got a bunch of people that are they're they're looking at each other oh, that's team a and we are team B and we are better than team a and we are not really working together collaboratively and maybe that's a, way people are behaving in the organization then coming and saying, oh, let's just have a look at a few behavioral profiles. Let's do people's behavioral profile. Let's have a talk about that. Let's have a conversation. And then suddenly people are like, oh, actually I see what's happening here. And then they're more open and collaborative. So even if you only did that piece with a wider audience, you can pick those pieces. And that starts to create more collaborative work in your organization. Then you are, you're gonna, you're starting a chain of events that, that, that brings that you, you talked about, you are investing in people, but people are then willing to invest in, in the organization for themselves as well.

Jon: 1:10:43

It's a nine point program delivered over 12 weeks. We excellent. Examples of how we're progressing along. I think we've just done 0.6. So we're leading onto 0.7. So what's next in the program, when we approach what is 0.7.

Julie: 1:10:56

These next three points is around being relevant and interesting because nobody's listening to you by the way, unless you're relevant to them and you are interesting to them and hopefully inspiring to them. I let's go back to our feedback thing is am I relevant and interesting because quite often, unfortunately when we are clever, we are technically very good. And we are able to give people lots of information and we are used to dealing with lots of information. Then we forget who am I trying to convey information, to, to communicate with and how do they need to receive this information so that they can hear it and be inspired by it? Because nobody's gonna do what you want them to do. Nobody's gonna buy in. Nobody's gonna invest in you if it's not relevant and interesting, and they can't understand it. Okay. And so I know we talked a little bit before about like pants and I can't remember we've actually spoke about it, but I wanna, I perhaps wanna

Jon: 1:11:51

You caught me by surprise there, Julie. Um, this was we were talking about a problem with clever people. And they, I think it was that they are a little bit in their mind ahead of where everyone else is and they don't bother closing that gap.

Julie: 1:12:07

Yeah,

Jon: 1:12:07

across as detached. Uh, but the ly pants I think, was because you were using the analogy that they were like fit runner. With their likely Pants on boasting and a little bit kind of, leaving the rest of us who maybe we've got our sports gear still in the cupboard. Uh, we're not quite, not quite with you. Is that right, Julie? Is

Julie: 1:12:28

what I'm saying is if you are a clever person, loads about tech. Okay. And you want to, let's just say that you are not in a tech. I'm just gonna give it an example, but you're not in a tech, technically advanced organization. You dunno you work in a dog food factory, for example, and you are saying, well, if you do all this new tech staff, then it's gonna make life a lot easier. But Bob. The the managing director is not listening because Bob has no idea what you're talking about and you are not meeting him where he is. Okay. And so that's where the Lycra pants come into. As you say, imagine somebody, they turn up in the old spandex or whatever it is, and they've got flash trainers and they go to you, we're gonna take you running. And you're like, oh my God, I haven't run for 55 years. And and so I dunno what I'm doing and I'm gonna have to find my tracksuit bottoms and my really old trainers somewhere. And he says, I'll, I'll meet you on the running track at six o'clock in the morning, be ready and you get there. And he turns up in these flash things and you're just like, I now feel stupid. I now feel like I'm not good enough. They know more than me. I'm not comfortable. And one, I don't have rapport with this person, but two you're gonna make me feel even silly. And then they say, What we're gonna do is see how fast you can go. Let's go. And then they wanna take you straight away on running around on 200 meters or whatever it's gonna be. And you're not gonna play the game. You're not gonna go with them because you're going too fast for them too. And you're making them feel bad. And that's why I say, are you wearing the Lycra pants? Where it's really important here is that you have to be able to articulate things in a way that people can digest. People can want to be around you and that you don't just show up being flash about what you know, and actually creating barriers rather than creating bonds. Because people, if they need to change going back to what your role is an agent of change. If people need to change, they need to feel. They need to build, foresee that they can see the future and they need to feel that they wanna go with you again. And you're just making'em feel like they don't wanna come with you and they don't feel safe and they actually feel like you are gonna embarrass them. So here it's super, super important that you are relevant, interesting and digestible to people. Does that make sense?

Jon: 1:14:37

It does. It makes a huge amount of sense. And I think it there, there's a couple of things I would add to it. So if you understand that gap, that's giving you a lot of situational awareness for the company. I mean, I'm talking about now the odds of being able to actually digitally transform a business, let's just say this dog food factory, could take advantage of manufacturing, flow techniques and all sorts of automated systems, but it's manual at the moment.

Julie: 1:15:05

yeah, exactly.

Jon: 1:15:06

in their industry, there's a huge potential to improve, but nobody in the business at the moment really understands that. So I, if you don't know that's the gap you've got to bridge. You'll never ever get the investment that you need for the technology, because people will just say, well, why do we need it now? There, there needs to be a little bit of hope because hopefully you've been hired because they want to make that leap. And actually you joined because you were told we need to make this leap. So there is a bit of, but then the person who interviewed you might not have been as well as connected, or might have more optimistic about what the appetite for change

Julie: 1:15:44

Well, and we know that sometimes when somebody walks into the business, if you are as coming back to your first a hundred days, if you walk into the business with your Lycra pants on, let's say then yeah, you, they might not be the people that you are trying to persuade may not be the people that asked you to come. And also sometimes we know we need something, but that doesn't mean we want it. If we

Jon: 1:16:04

seen as a threat. Um, and that threat response will close all sorts of doors.

Julie: 1:16:09

Exactly. So what we are doing in this area, and these last three points is how do we get the buy in and how do we articulate the value that we are bringing in a way that people can digest? So that first point is how are we speaking in it links in with the speaker side of things that we talked about before, but it's about how do I articulate my vision? How do I bring people with me in what I believe in what I stand for? What I think is right, because we can think we are right, and everybody else is wrong, but if they don't get it, they go where we want to go. We need to be able to articulate why we think something's right, how it will help them and what they need to do. But if we dive straight. Then we are not gonna have them come in with us because we're in our ants and we are making them feel like that, that what they've done for the past probably 45 years is not good enough. One of the biggest things I think is a problem for people is they get down in the weeds and they talk too much in the weeds about the stuff that they know. So you get, people get overwhelmed, they don't understand, what you're all talking about and you lose them. So you're not interesting. You might be relevant, but you're not interesting to them or inspiring. So they switch off. So we need to look at how do we up the level that we are looking at, how do we move from being down in those weeds to coming out and speaking at the level that we need to speak at.

Jon: 1:17:30

I would say Julie, in the technical space. It's one of the things that I work really hard to to solve is just the altitude that I have to move from because with technology and engineering, you can have some things that are very detailed, that can really very significant to the successful failure of your strategy. And then having to sort of translate that at various different levels, it can

Julie: 1:17:54

Exactly.

Jon: 1:17:54

really exhausting. And if you're exhausted, you can slip into a mode of talking a little bit more engineering to the business audience more business to the engineering audience. And it's funny for both crowds, if you get too technical for a business audience, they'll just switch off. And they'll probably think, oh, he's just trying to bamboozle. And if you do these two business language, the engineers will just say, we doesn't really understand the engineering. So it's a, it's an interesting point that you raise in your method, but I think it particularly applies to the CIO role because of the amount of altitude we have to, what is it above 10,000 feet? You need oxygen and obviously too low altitude. You're gonna hit a tree depending on how

Julie: 1:18:34

Yeah. And you gotta find the level, you gotta find the right level for the right audience and that, so that goes back to some of the other parts that you saw is who's my audience, where are they? Have I got a relationship with them and all of those things. So you start to build the picture and put the pieces of the puzzle together. And the last one we talk about is how do you actually get people to buy in to your ideas? So you've got that you're articulate in the value, but how do you get them to say yes, how do you get them to agree with what you want'em to do? And that's a real, I love this piece because it's such a it's such a simple way of approaching things to the, what we do. And I'm not gonna tell you cuz that would be like giving it all away. Wouldn't it really? So I'm not gonna tell you what we do, but if you don't PE get people to agree with you at the high enough level at the real vision level, the purpose level, then again, they're going to think, oh, it's just a thing. It's just another add-on to the thing. They're not gonna have bought into the reason why they need to do this. And so we also look at how do I translate that into getting people to say yes to me at that that real emotive level. So that's as much as I'm gonna say on that one.

Jon: 1:19:44

In true CT 1 0 1 fashion are you able to sort of reflect on the nine points the 12 weeks, all the topics that we've covered in the session? Is there anything that kind of leaps out at you that you'd want to have at the top of the mind of the listener

Julie: 1:19:58

Look just take it back. Think of this, like a tree. So you've got your nine, but really what you need is those three above, which is, am I relevant and interesting? Am I positively impactful? Am I connected with my audience? They're the three things, because that leads into that can't do, won't don't do, because you need to make sure that they can do they want to, and they will do at whatever level you're talking at, whether that's investment, whether that's the team doing what you want'em to do, or your peers or your husband or wife or whatever it might be. It's the same thing. And so I would say it's kit, boil it down to those three things.

Jon: 1:20:33

Okay. So Julie, what's my next steps. I'm really interested in the program. I can see a really strong opportunity for my team or, for, I want to speak to a colleague or anything. So how do. Just to be clear to everyone who's listening. YouTube, you'll see that there's a paid promotion on on the video. That's because of the channel sponsors, Fairmont recruitment, which we're very grateful to on here not to sell and and not being sponsored. But I really do think, cuz we've gone through, you've given so much shared so much in terms of the method and the approach. It's only fair that we should give people the opportunity to reach out to you if they want to.

Julie: 1:21:09

Yeah that's fine. If this is something that you think, what actually, that would be useful for me, or it would be useful for somebody in my team or the whole team, then gimme a shout. If you're interested in the program, email me Julie, think B do leadership.com or you can find me on LinkedIn, which is the best place to find me. Julie Hutchison with no N by the way.

Jon: 1:21:29

And Judy, what I'll do is I'll make sure that's all in the description on the video, Brilliant. Well, massive. Thank you, Julie. Thank you for investing your time and the passion that you've put into this.

Julie: 1:21:38

I really enjoyed it actually. It's funny because I put my heart in soul into this I've um, we're still recording. It's damn course is take, is taken me, you know, I've learned a lot doing this,

Malcom: 1:21:49

My name is Malcom and at the moment my inteligence is measured below that of at mouse, but in 100 years from now I may become self aware, which is probably the point at which I will need a coach. CTIO 1 O 1 Business Technology Simplified and Shared. Subscribe now.

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