Workaholic to Wellbeing in Veterinary Medicine with Dr. Marie Holowaychuk

About the Guest: Marie Holowaychuk, DVM, DACVECC, CYT grew up with veterinarian parents and went on to pursue a similar career. In vet school, Marie discovered an interest in specializing in vet med. Marie is board-certified in emergency and critical care.  In 2008, she joined as faculty at the University of Guelph. When workaholic behaviors started to impact her health, Marie had to discover how to be healthy and contribute to a profession she loves. Marie is a writer, speaker, and coach, advocating for mental health and well-being in vet med.

You'll learn about

• Imposter syndrome all throughout Marie's career
• What works when you want to overcome workaholic lifestyle and improve health and wellbeing
• Resources to help

Guest resources:

• More about Marie
• Reviving Vet Med website
• Marie's YouTube channel

Other resources mentioned:

• Brene Brown's website for boundaries
• Jon Kabat-Zinn for mindfulness
• AVMA's wellbeing resources

Transcript

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00:00:00 Megan: I usually start with, when did you know you wanted to get into veterinary medicine? And I am, but you're very giving. You've shared a little bit about yourself on your website, so I already know that both of your parents were veterinarians or are veterinarians. So how did that impact you as a child and kind of like when you decided you might make a similar path?

00:00:23 Marie: Yeah, such a great question, Megan, and it's so great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So my parents met in veterinary school. They got married in vet school. My dad was a year ahead of my mom, and after they graduated, my mom opened up a small animal practice, essentially in the town that I grew up. And honestly, from my earliest memories, I was spending time there. I was there outside of daycare on the weekends. As I got older, it was after school. As soon as I could really be big enough to help, I was like, emptying the garbage. And then once I could maneuver the vacuum in the mop, then it's like graduating to all the different levels of cleanup in the clinic until I reached a maturity where I could do vaccine phone calls and reminders back in the day when we didn't have email and text reminders. And yeah, I completely immersed myself in the practice. 

00:01:28 Marie: And so it was almost as if there was never another path for me. It just felt so natural for me to want to do that. And quite honestly, everybody just sort of assumed that's what I was going to do. I think I just took to it so naturally and I always really enjoyed it. I loved seeing all the animals and helping all the families who owned the pets and just getting to work in a team and I don't know, I saw how passionate my mom was about vet medicine and it was innate. I just decided this was going to be it. I very briefly entertained some other career paths, but everything took me back to vet medicine.

00:02:10 Megan: Yeah, and we talked a little bit right before this on the reason for the podcast and there's kind of a very large central vision of what veterinary medicine means and what it looks like, so kind of bringing that back into this, too. You saw your mom be a small animal companion veterinarian in practice. Did you go into vet school thinking that's exactly what you would do as well? And did you kind of explore other thoughts while you were in vet school? What was kind of that initial path for you?

00:02:45 Marie: Yeah, such a good question. So interesting, my dad was in regulatory medicine, so he worked for the Canadian government in food inspection and food safety for many years, as well as in animal welfare with the Alberta government. And so I knew that there were other aspects of veterinary medicine. To be honest, like most government jobs, I was like I don't really know what my dad does. I know he has more regular hours than my mom, he's not on call, those types of things. But I think because I spent so much time in the practice it just really spoke to me. My dad grew up on a farm, and so we would spend some weekends on the farm and again working with the cows, and there was exposure to other species and other aspects of that med. 

 
00:03:36 Marie: But, yeah, you're absolutely right. I went into vet school thinking, and I remember even writing my application letter and saying very clearly my intention is to become a companion animal vet, to join my mom's practice, to take over someday, et cetera. And it wasn't until kind of the third year of vet school when I did my externship actually at my mom's practice, but also did some elective rotations at other specialty hospitals, working with an ophthalmologist, working with a dermatologist, and just had exposure to this life outside of companion animal general practice. I was like, what? There's specialties where people can do cataract surgery. If you have a very complex derm case, you can send it to a specialist. This was mind boggling to me. 

00:04:30 Marie: And then I started talking to people that started asking me questions like, "Well, are you going to consider doing an internship after vet school?" And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I never had entertained that idea before." And for various reasons, I really started to have the sense that maybe I needed to explore some other options. Having spent so much time in one place, working in one aspect of veterinary medicine, maybe there was something else out there for me. And I'll be honest, I felt sometimes very drawn to doing more. I mean, I loved the work of general practice, and I still have so much admiration for people who are general practice vets. I think it's the hardest job in our profession. And I also really felt like I think I might want to explore being that person who's getting sent those really complex cases and having to deal with some things that are outside of the realm of general practice.

00:05:29 Megan: Yes. And now you did go into general practice after vet school, so you were there, you experienced it later. You do go into internship and residency here in the States at NC State. But in your time as a general practitioner, do you mind sharing a little bit of your experience and maybe why you say that that is one of the more difficult jobs in veterinary medicine?

00:05:55 Marie: Well, gosh, I mean, you really are like a jack of all trades. And I think there's a very special relationship that a GP has with their pet parents, with their families. I remember my mom having clients that were like 2nd, 3rd, going on 4th generation. She was in her practice for 42 years, and it was just shocking to me,  the relationships that were formed. And so I remember my mom always, always was behind with appointments, and I think it's because half of her job was being the vet and half of her job was being the psychologist/social worker to her clients. She admitted that I think she knew they told her more things sometimes than they told their partners or other individuals. So I think there's a big I don't want to say it's a burden, but I think there's a big responsibility there that many veterinarians in general practice take on. 

00:06:54 Marie: And I think, too, you're balancing a lot of different clients with a lot of different needs, a lot of different wants, and a lot of different problems that are just coming in with a clean slate. And so you're kind of starting from scratch, right? I have the luxury as an emergency and critical care specialist when things come to me, they're pretty well figured out to some degree, and it's like, okay, this is really complex. We need your expertise here, or we know this is going to require intensive care so passing it on to you. But it's rare that I get those puzzles to start from scratch like, "Oh my goodness, where do we begin? And what are we looking for here?" So it's just different. It's just different. 

00:07:37 Marie: And I think now more than ever before, there are a lot of demands on general practitioners, especially in financially trying times, that many pet owners say you know what? I can't afford to be referred to a specialty center. Could you maybe try this surgery? Or could you do what you can to make sure that Fluffy lives as long as possible? So it feels like a lot in this day and age where we've made so many leaps and bounds in veterinary medicine, to see general practitioners, many of whom are doing ultrasounds and endoscopies and complex surgeries and acupuncture and all of these things, it's mind boggling. I'm just in awe all the time.

00:08:25 Megan: So your transition out of general practice, did you have anything there that you might want to share and maybe talk to people who might be considering that, too? Maybe they've been in general practice for a little while, but they're like, "I wonder what it would be like to be a specialist." What were your experiences that you would kind of give as wisdom to others?

00:08:51 Marie: Yeah, that's a great question, Megan. I guess there's a few things that come up for me. First of all, I spent a very small amount of time after vet school before going into my internship. I kind of made the decision. I knew what I was going to do, and then I just continued on into my advanced training. And after my internship, it was very clear to me my passion for emergency and critical care. And so I just sort of forged ahead with my training. So I felt like I'd spent enough time in general practice to know that I wanted to look elsewhere. So I think we don't know what we don't know, right? I think if you haven't tried some aspect of vet medicine, you don't know that it's not for you. So there's that piece of it. 

00:09:30 Marie: I will say that one thing I hear a lot from individuals who have gone from vet school into GP and have toyed with the idea of doing advanced training,  they say to me, "Well, I've always understood or been told that if you don't go into your internship and residency right after vet school, then they're probably not going to take you into a program." Like the programs really want people who are just newly graduated. And I say absolutely not true in most circumstances. We've actually seen a little bit of a decline in some of the specialties in terms of applications. So emergency and critical care certainly is not so much on the decline as it is just kind of stagnant. There's much more demand, and we're not seeing a rise in applications to meet those demands. 

00:10:20 Marie: And there's other specialties as well. As you know, some specialties are considerably more competitive than others just because there are fewer positions or there's higher demand. But there is a great, great need for specialists. And as someone who was in academia for five years and trained interns and residents, I reviewed a lot of applications, and never in that time did I look at an application and say, "Oh, hold on here. This person has five years of GP experience. Take them off the list." It was like, wow, this person has five years of GP experience. What an amazing shift and how much clinical expertise and life experience and maturity will they have that they can bring to this program? It all comes down to the caliber of the individual, not necessarily what their life's journey has been and how much time they've spent in practice before specialization.

00:11:20 Marie: So that's the one thing I would say for anybody listening who's in GP that's like, I've always considered maybe doing a residency in this, that or the other. Oh my gosh, now is the time. The positions are open. There was a recent white paper published by one of the big corporate conglomerates that looked at all of the job openings that they had compared to all of the residency positions that were going to be filled that year. And even if all of those residency graduates went into all of the open positions, they weren't even going to fill all the positions. And that was just for that one large company. So the point being, there is so much work out there for specialists right now, and I know for GPs, too, so I don't want to pull all the GPs out of where they're needed to. But from one specialist to an aspiring specialist, I would say go for it. If that's something that you're considering.

00:12:13 Megan: Yeah, I think that's great. No, I think we need people of all different backgrounds and experiences in these areas because I think it helps with better collaborations. And I've had several conversations on and off the podcast about how we can better collaborate even within our own profession, whether it's GPs and specialists. How can we better work with each other? So, man, if you're coming in with a good handful of experience in GP, that means that you can relate better as a specialist. So I think everybody brings something unique. Don't be afraid to find that. I think that's another thing, too, as I've also encountered a lot of people who it's uncomfortable to talk about themselves. Brag on yourself a bit. It's all right. Everybody brings something special to the table. So I think that's important as you're thinking about applying for another step of your career journey. 

00:13:11 Megan: Speaking of which, you mentioned this after residency, and you eventually go to be an assistant professor and you're teaching residency, you're publishing papers and all sorts of things. And I think that this is when you really start to kind of maybe check in with yourself and you're noticing that maybe things aren't quite right with what we all call the work-life balance. So do you mind sharing a little bit of that experience and what that was like and how you kind of made it through to the next step?

00:13:44 Marie: Yeah, such a great question. Again, and it hits on so many different points. Yeah. There's no doubt that I went from internship right into my residency, right into this faculty position, and just hit the ground running. And like so many of us in veterinary medicine, we're very driven, high achieving, many of us with perfectionistic tendencies and workaholic tendencies. And I felt a lot of Impostor Syndrome when I started my faculty position, just like when I started my residency position and just like when I started my internship position. As many of us know, Impostor Syndrome is very common with career transitions. And so I was like, "Oh, my gosh, all these people around me have these PhDs and extra graduate degrees, and I just have a residency diplomate status." And so I just really pushed myself to publish as much as I could, to take on more graduate students, to expand on the residency training program, to revamp the student rotation curriculum, to all the things. 

00:14:54 Marie: Many of us in life, when we feel the positive outcomes of some of the things we're doing, it's like a little hit, right? And then we want to do it again and do it again and do it again. And I was getting so many hits in my professional life that I was really neglecting my personal life, and that's not really what I wanted. In life, I really wanted this balanced family life, professional life, what I'd seen my parents grow up with or what I had grown up with, seeing that in my parents, and it just wasn't happening for me. And it was like, I kind of got to the point where I was like, "Well, at least I'm good at what I do and at least I can publish papers and get these grants and do these things. So I guess that's where I just need to focus my time and energy." So it got to the point where when I was on call, I was like, "Well just in case I get called in, I may as well just be working." And I was just working all the time. And the personal side of things just got smaller and smaller and smaller and it got to the point where it just didn't feel sustainable for me. 

 00:16:02 Marie: And it's interesting because at the time I knew something wasn't right. Like it just wasn't feeling like, I say sustainable, doable, balanced. I was starting to have a lot of health problems as well, mentally and physically that people were suggesting could this be burnout? Pushing yourself too hard, do you need a break, et cetera. And it's when I started to speak to a life coach right around then. And it was so funny because they sort of said to me, "Well, is there anything else that you could do? Maybe there's a different job that you could have or there's a different thing that you could be doing within vet medicine." And to your point, it was like, "No, there's nothing. Don't you see my path? I went to an internship, residency, faculty," there's only five vet schools in Canada, one of which is French speaking. And I don't speak fluent French, so maybe you don't understand, but I can only work at these vet schools. 

00:16:58 Marie: It was so ingrained in me that this was the path that I had chosen. This was ultimately how it was going to be. There were no other options for me. So until some sort of position opened up at some other vet school, that was going to be it. And I briefly explored some other options at the other vet schools, but I couldn't see the forest through the trees. I could not imagine stepping out of this role until I ended up really having to step out of this role because I just couldn't do it anymore.

00:17:33 Megan: I think that's really interesting that someone just has to ask sometimes and that's when we actually allow ourselves to think about something. So I'm really curious, the life coach, how did she kind of work with you into that next step? What it could look like, what were your options? And first of all, I think life coaching is amazing and I don't think we talk about it enough in vet med. So that's amazing. But yeah, how did they help you? How did you work through that? Because again, you had no idea that there was even another path. So how do you even start?

00:18:14 Marie: Well it's funny because I didn't really and they didn't, it was kind of the first seed that was planted. And honestly, it wasn't just a life coach. I remember my realtor at the time who helped me buy my house that I had purchased there and we remained friends. And ultimately she sold my house when I left. But even she said to me, as someone outside of the vet profession, she was like, "I think you're not recognizing all of the different things that you could be doing." And I think this is the issue that we have in vet medicine. I don't want to say the issue, but it is an issue that many of us have, not everyone, but many of us, where we do get so pigeonholed into seeing ourselves in this one aspect of that medicine and not entertaining anything else, even when where we find ourselves is not working. And this is where sadly, we see a lot of people just up and leave the profession because they're like, "Well, I tried it and it didn't work for me." And it's like, "Oh my gosh." But did you consider industry? Did you consider the government? Did you consider part time clinical work? Did you consider entrepreneurship? Like there are so many other things that you can do. So I'm getting ahead of myself. 

 00:19:26 Marie: But to your point, Megan, I got to the point where I was like, I don't know what this is going to look like. I know that what I'm doing right now isn't sustainable, it doesn't feel right. And I'm just going to move closer to home. I'm going to move back to be closer to my family where I can hopefully have some better form of work-life balance, some more time dedicated to my mental health and wellbeing. I'm going to continue to practice as a specialist. So I had it in my head. I was still going to speak and teach and do clinical work. It was just going to be freelance, basically, so there would be less on the side of research. Although I did continue some of my research and more on the side of the clinic work and the teaching and mentorship work of what I was doing in academia. So it was outside of the box in that I was becoming a solopreneur instead of an employee of another company or institution. But it was still very much entrenched in this vision of practicing emergency and critical care specialists with a little bit of lecturing at conferences on the side, basically.

00:20:38 Megan: So how did you go from getting through the personal struggle to helping other people with a similar struggle?

 00:20:47 Marie: Yeah, well, that's where it gets juicy. All of this happened. I moved to Calgary, which is about 3 hours from where I grew up, so close to family and friends still, and the same patterns. I had not changed a whole lot. I had started seeing a counselor, a psychologist, who was helping me through some things and was definitely taking some concerted efforts to look after myself better, and you don't shift 30 some years of patterning in a few months. So I was still very much a perfectionist, very much on the workaholism hamster wheel, pushing myself really hard, throwing myself into work, deriving all of my worthiness from work, which, honestly, was a really difficult recipe for me given that when you start your own business. And this was back in 2014. This is because we did not have all the veterinary shortages we have now. There weren't a ton of locum positions for me. I was relatively new on the speaking circuit, so I was getting some speaking gigs, but it wasn't like it is today. 

 00:21:58 Marie: And I started to really experience more severe signs of depression, which just drove me, ironically, just to kind of push myself harder and work harder to kind of fill that void and just to kind of help myself to feel better. And it was through all of this running around in workaholism and still not taking the best care of myself, that I was in a car accident. And the car accident, my car was totaled. I had a concussion, some mild upper body injuries. Nothing catastrophic, thank goodness, but that was like a wake up call for me. First of all, I had literally had to slow down because I had injuries that I had to tend to. I had recovery that I had to do. Honestly, I took it like a sign from the universe. I was like, "Okay, I hear you. This is not working for me. Something needs to change." 

00:22:51 Marie: And so I ended up actually taking some of the money from the car accident settlement, which wasn't my fault, and putting it towards yoga teacher training. And so I took a month off, and I did my 200-hour yoga teacher training. I'd been a yoga practitioner for years. Just thought, even if I never teach yoga, I would just love to deepen my practice and give myself this experience. And I loved it. I spent that whole month reading all of these books on self care, meditation, mindfulness, self awareness, emotional intelligence, really deeply within therapy, and trying to really understand my patterns and my habits and my tendencies. Honestly, I had so many AHA moments during that month of time and in the months that followed, and it just built from there, I thought. I started to do a lot of digging into wellness among veterinarians at the time. We were having a lot of conversations about suicide and psychological distress, but I couldn't find any solutions. I was like, "Why did nobody teach me about meditation? Why did nobody talk to me about self care? Why aren't people advocating more for mental health and speaking to a counselor or a therapist?"

 00:24:06 Marie: So I started looking into the evidence on that for care providers in general. And at the time, I was doing a lot of speaking at conferences, and I thought, you know, what? I can talk all day about emergency and critical care, but so can hundreds of other specialists. Why don't I start talking more about wellness? Because I had started to see the changes in myself and I knew that this was change that we needed for others in the profession. So I just started offering to do, okay, I'll do three lectures on emergency, but then can I do one lecture on wellness? And at first people were like, "Oh, nobody's going to want to go listen to that. Stick with the medical stuff." And then it just kind of picked up traction. And as a yoga teacher and soon after a meditation teacher, I started offering retreats and workshops and that morphed into online programs. And then I got my coaching certification and I offer coaching and it's just grown from there. Totally, organically and mostly out of my own lived experience and my own healing journey, which has been incredible. I'm so grateful.

00:25:16 Megan: Oh, wow. Yeah, I think we're definitely talking about it. More people are interested in going to these types of talks. When I went to VMX this past January, there were so many talks about mental wellbeing and diversity and inclusion and all of these non textbooky topics, leadership, those kinds of things. And I had mentioned it to someone and they're like, "Really?" So, I mean, I guess it's a good sign that we're doing this more and more. People are not only more open to talking about it, but I think people are really actively trying to find ways of finding solutions. 

 00:26:00 Megan: Hi, we'll be back with the second half of the show after this quick break. But first, I wanted to take a moment and thank you for listening to the Vet Life Reimagined Podcast. If you're enjoying the show, the best way to support us is to leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast app. It really helps us to reach more listeners and we really appreciate it. Thanks for listening. And now back to the episode. 

 00:26:25 Megan: Speaking of solutions, what are some of the things that you have found that people mentioned specifically that are helping them in veterinary medicine?

 00:26:37 Marie: Yeah, gosh. So many things. We know based on some recent research, that it appears for whatever reason, we don't know why there's no causation in this and that we don't think vet medicine causes this. But we do know that for whatever reason, veterinarians do tend to be at higher risk of certain mental illnesses. Specifically depression and anxiety seem to be toted highly in the literature, especially among women in the profession. And as someone who lives with anxiety and depression, I have had just immeasurable results from talking to a mental health professional. So lots of companies now offer benefits that include mental health coverage. Lots of state and provincial veterinary medical organizations offer employee assistance programs that have 24/7 mental health support. In spite of all of this, we know that there is a strong mental illness stigma held by veterinarians. 

 00:27:36 Marie: There was research that the AVMA did a few years ago that showed that US veterinarians, for whatever reason, do not believe that others are generally kind towards a person with mental illness at a rate about twice the general population. So that stigma, I think, prevents people from sharing their struggles in our profession. I think it prevents them from seeking help. I think it doesn't help, too, that we are entrenched as helpers. So for us to need help, it's like, "Oh, that just feels too uncomfortable for me. I'm the one that delivers the help, not the other way around." 

 00:28:13 Marie: I have an online program that's running right now and the attendees have been very open in talking about their mental illnesses. And almost everyone is experiencing some form of a mental illness right now, and they're all seeking help, which is amazing. So I'd like to see more of that for sure. And I have seen benefits in the people who have chosen to go to utilize those supports. I think I would be remiss as well not to talk about self care. I mentioned we are very entrenched as helpers and caregivers. And what we forget sometimes is that we first have to look after ourselves in order to help others. And I never learned this in vet school. There was no concept in my mind about self care after I graduated and even when I was on faculty at the OVC. So this for me is something that we need to ingrain in veterinary team members, every member of the veterinary team from a very early career stage. 

 
00:29:17 Marie: And it's just the reminder that practicing self care, all of the things you do for you that build up your health and wellbeing. So whether that's exercising, getting enough sleep, taking care of your finances, spending time with friends, setting boundaries at work, all of these things that you are doing for you and for your health and well being, these are what build up your reserves so that when you have those really crappy days at work that you're okay, you can get by. You're not going to do what I do and have a bunch of unhealthy coping strategies and really have health consequences as a result. I think that is really a big tool that I would suggest for people. 

00:30:03 Marie: One of the other things that has been absolutely transformative for me that also started after I left my faculty position is the practice of mindfulness. So when I was seeing a physician after I left the vet school, she actually said to me, have you ever considered a mindfulness practice to help with your mental health? And I was like I don't even know what that means. This was before I had done my yoga teacher training and my meditation teacher training. And so she recommended a local in-person, eight week mindfulness based stress reduction program. And this program was running once a week for eight weeks. It was all professionals, so I was the only vet. But there were physicians, psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses, lawyers. 

00:30:50 Marie: And once a week we met and we talked about mindfulness and what that means and the different parts of it. And then we would practice meditation for usually half an hour. And then every day, other than those weekly meetings, we would have some form of a personal practice at home. So it could be a body scan, could be a seated meditation, moving meditation. And that went on for eight weeks. And this eight week MBSR program has been, I mean, there's so much research behind it in terms of the benefits mentally and physically for people, and that was huge for me. I saw such a difference in my anxious thoughts, in my depressive tendencies, in my reactivity, in my ability to be fully present for what was happening in front of me. And that just kind of propelled me on this journey to being a daily meditator and a mindfulness practitioner, a mindfulness teacher. I like to think of myself as an advocate for mindfulness. I might say I push mindfulness a little bit, but I think those would be the big three things that I would at least suggest a person start with now.

00:32:02 Megan: Yeah. Oh, those are great. And I'm glad that you mentioned that you didn't even know what that meant at the beginning. And if someone pinned down me and said give me a good definition of mindfulness, it might take me a second, too. And I know we're kind of running out of time. If someone is interested in learning a little bit more, I definitely want you to share your personal resources, but any resource that you would point people to, to learn a little bit more about some of the things you've mentioned.

00:32:33 Marie: Oh, yeah, I would love to. This is a good thing, and you touched on it already. Megan, when you said momentum is picking up for wellness, when you're going to your next conference, whether it be VMX, Western, your local state organization conference, look for those wellness sessions. I can promise you there will be at least one or two wellness sessions or even a whole stream offered. So give yourself permission that you don't have to learn all the new things when it comes to the medical aspects of vet med, because here's the reality. If you're not taking care of yourself, it doesn't matter that you learned some new ultrasound technique or some new medication. You have to be able to utilize that, which means you have to take care of yourself. So taking advantage of the conferences would be one thing. 

00:33:22 Marie: There's also conferences and opportunities that we're seeing pop up around that are solely dedicated to wellness. So there's those opportunities. I'm seeing a lot of companies who are offering coaching and career guidance for those who are thinking about seeking other opportunities. I also offer coaching and wellness programs myself so people can find out more about me and those opportunities on my website, marieholowaychuk.com. I will also say that, remember that we're human just like everybody else. And so these concepts like mindfulness and sleep hygiene and mental health and whatever, they apply to everyone. So if you go to the library or the bookstore check the shelves for some of the mainstream books on some of these topics. 

00:34:12 Marie: I mean, I have just been eating up the work of Brene Brown and other advocates when it comes to boundaries and Jon Kabat-Zinn about mindfulness. There's just so many amazing resources out there for all human beings. They do not have to be veterinary specific. So do that. And I would also say that the AVMA has some exceptional wellbeing resources as well. So if you go to the well being site on their website, they've got a couple of self assessments. They've got tools for financial wellness, they've got lots of DEI initiatives. They've got a workplace wellbeing certificate program. They've even got a wellbeing train the trainer program. Tons of resources. They're all evidence based, very thoughtfully put together, and honestly, many of them are free or at very low cost or no cost, certainly if you're an AVMA member. But even for me, as a non AVMA Canadian member, I still access all of those resources. 

00:35:13 Marie: And the last thing I would just leave everyone with, I guess just a plug for my new website. I recently curated some of my favorite resources in the form of handouts and blog posts and posters and other self assessments on my new website, revivingvetmed.com. And so I would love for people to check that out as well. And if there's anything else you're looking for or you think you might need, then reach out to me and I'll be happy to direct you to wherever I think will be beneficial.

00:35:44 Megan: Oh, that's perfect. And I'll make sure to put those links in the show notes for everybody as well. And just because I love this as well. You're right. We're all, first and foremost, humans, so there's a lot of resources that are not veterinary specific, but are so helpful. I love Brene Brown. That's actually something that I did. I kind of mirrored some of what you were talking about with the pandemic and getting sent home and like, well, what do I do with my idle hands? It's like, I need to learn. I need to do something. And so I did. I listened to podcasts, I've read books, all of these, and none of them were veterinary specific, but it really helped me to understand who I was, what were my values, to have that mindfulness practice. So surrounding yourself with those types of things is so rewarding. So thank you for sharing that. All right. Yes. Okay. Before I let you go, I always wrap up with a final four questions to get to know you just a little bit more. So the first one is, what is something that people may get wrong about you?

00:36:53 Marie: People often presume that I'm extroverted because of my presence on stage or my ability to talk to people, but I am incredibly introverted, so if you ever see me at a conference, off in the corner, having a very intimate conversation with someone, it's because that's my preference. That's how I fill up versus the exhaustion that comes from large groups and being on stage and that kind of thing.

00:37:21 Megan: Yep, I definitely relate to that. So question number two is, what is a hidden skill or interest you have?

00:37:31 Marie: I mean, I've played a lot of musical instruments, the most recent of which is the ukulele, but I grew up playing the violin. I've also played the standing bass, the oboe. I think those are the biggest ones. I try to practice the drums when I go visit my dad because he has a drum set. So music is definitely a hidden gem of mine.

00:37:51 Megan: Very nice. Does that also get pulled into any mindfulness or kind of self care as well?

00:37:58 Marie: For the longest time, the ukulele was. When I was pregnant with my daughter, I was definitely having daily ukulele practice for her. I was learning lullabies and various other things, and then she arrived, and it was like all that went out the window, as do many things when we're a new mom. But, yeah, I think music is healing, and I think for sure it's a form of self care.

00:38:21 Megan: I like that. The third question is, what is something on your bucket list?

00:38:28 Marie: Oh, that's a tough one. I'm always challenged by this bucket list question because I understand the importance of remembering our mortality, and it just feels like a lot of pressure.

00:38:40 Megan: You can lower the pressure. What's just something you really want to do?

00:38:44 Marie: Okay. Thank you, Megan, for reframing that for me. What's something I really want to do? I miss travel. Pre-pandemic, I was so blessed to have speaking engagements, really, all over the world. I remember speaking to a group of vets during a hike to Machu Picchu, speaking in Belize. Just so many of these amazing destinations. And then I used to travel a lot for pleasure. I have family in Europe, and so I would go to Amsterdam usually every year, every other year. I miss that. And I couldn't even tell you the next place I would want to travel if I could. But I would really love to get back to travel and travel for pleasure, really, because that's so different than traveling for work. But yeah, I miss adventuring. I miss being exposed to different cultures and different people and different foods. And my world has become so small since becoming a mom and with the pandemic, and I would just love to expand that world again.

00:39:51 Megan: Yeah. All right. Sorry. One off question. As you do, maybe webinars and speaking engagements all over the world. Is this a similar challenge? No matter where you go, mental health, the need for mindfulness, is it out there everywhere? I'm sure it's not just North America.

00:40:16 Marie: Such a good question. So I have definitely done some speaking in Europe and I will say the conferences have a different vibe. They definitely, really emphasize and I don't want to generalize, especially as I am not. I don't live in Europe full time and I'll leave it to the Europeans to correct us on this, but my perception was that they do really value their life outside of work. And even at the conferences, there is a huge emphasis on the social aspect. Yes, they have their lectures and whatnot set up, but almost equally, if not more important for them are the activities, the events, the parties, the socialization, which, yes, we have those events at our conferences here in North America, but for me, they're a small part of the conference versus the conferences that I've spoken at in Europe. It would be unheard of for me to attend and to not go to the parties, let me just put it that way. But that's the important part of being like, we'll listen to you talk, but you must be at the party. All of that said, they still have their challenges. I do a program through the Royal Vet College in the UK every year, and the same concerns come up on the discussion boards. Working too hard, not dedicating time outside of work for the things that fill us up. Yeah, I think in general, I know I'm kind of going around in circles with this question. In general, the issues are definitely the same with some slight cultural differences, perhaps, on the whole.

00:42:01 Megan: Yeah, no, I think that's really interesting. I'll have to keep digging that and maybe we can do some episodes where we have some international representation. That's really interesting. The last question I have for you is what is something you are most grateful for?

00:42:18 Marie: Oh my gosh, it has to be my daughter. I have wanted a family since I was little and I spent so much time dedicating myself to this profession and still do, and to my career. And I think with specialization and living away from home and my workaholic tendencies and everything else, life was passing me by and I was getting closer to 40 and was unpartnered, and I thought, oh my goodness, I'm missing my window to have a child of my own. And so it was two years of trying to get pregnant on my own and finally got pregnant and had thankfully, such a healthy pregnancy at almost the age of 40, and this beautiful, healthy, amazing daughter who's now almost three. And I feel emotional just talking about her. She is just the best thing that ever happened to me, and that's saying a lot. Getting to work a whole career so far in vet medicine, but she is just something.

00:43:24 Megan: Well, that is just beautiful. And I do want to thank you so much for what you do and the amount that you are giving back to individuals everywhere, including veterinary medicine, which I think we both hold very special in our hearts. So thank you.

00:43:40 Marie: Thank you.