Scaling Impact from the Clinic to Global Genomics (Dr. David Haworth)

In this episode, Dr. David Haworth joins Megan Sprinkle to share his nonlinear veterinary career journey, a path that took him from a two-doctor clinic in Spokane, WA to leading major organizations like Pfizer Animal Health, PetSmart Charities, and the Morris Animal Foundation. 

David reflects on the power of asking the right questions, the "evil" of cancer, and why the veterinary profession must act now to stay at the center of the human-animal bond. 

About the Guest:

Dr. David Haworth, DVM, PhD is a veterinarian and researcher who has held executive leadership roles across the animal health industry. He served as President of PetSmart Charities, President and CEO of the Morris Animal Foundation, and held key roles at Pfizer Animal Health (now Zoetis). He also co-founded Vidium Animal Health, a genomic diagnostics and therapy company focused on canine cancer. He currently serves as a Chair with the Human Animal Bond Research Institute (HABRI) and as a board member for the North American Veterinary Community (NAVC). 

Resources:

• Video episode on YouTube
• Dr. Haworth on LinkedIn

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Transcript

David Haworth: [00:00:00] I think we as a profession either need to put real concerted effort into how do we stay relevant, credible providers of information to most pet parents, or we need to watch the train pull out of the station.

Megan Sprinkle: Welcome to Vet Life Reimagined. What happens when a competitive swimmer with a lackluster high school transcript shows up to lead some of the most influential organizations in animal health? In this episode, we sit down with Dr. David Haworth, a veterinarian whose career path looks like a masterclass in the pivot from a tiny clinical practice to the executive offices of Pfizer PetSmart Charities.

And the Morris Animal Foundation. David has navigated nearly every corner of our industry. He brings a uniquely grounded perspective on what it means to be a healer at scale, balancing the deep individual impact of the clinic with the broad systemic impact of global biotech and philanthropy. [00:01:00] What you'll hear in this episode,

why David pursued a PhD alongside his DVM and how learning to ask the right question transformed his approach to leadership, a vulnerable look at the moment. David asked himself, what does impact look like to him. Fighting evil: How a six pound splenic tumor pivoted his focus to oncology and eventually led to his work with the Golden Retriever Lifetime Study and Genomics Diagnostics.

And the future of the profession. A candid and perhaps controversial warning about the disintermediation of veterinary medicine and why the profession needs to decide if it wants to remain a central piece of the pet parent universe. Whether you are a student wondering where your career could go, or a seasoned practitioner feeling the shift in the neighborhood of pet care, David's insights offer a powerful roadmap for staying relevant in a rapidly changing world.

So let's get to the conversation with Dr. David [00:02:00] Howorth.

when did you know you were interested in veterinary medicine?

David Haworth: I am so archetypal, uh, you know, when I was a middle child of two professor., The one thing I loved was the idea of helping animals. and, uh, you know, I, I often say it's not that I don't like humans. I've been married to one for 35 years, and I, I raised two successfully, reasonably, successfully. Uh, but I actually, you know, the choice has always been to be a healer and be a healer of animals, So, uh, pretty early on, four, five, something, you know, it never, never really occurred to me to do anything else.

Megan Sprinkle: Well. That's interesting because you also told me a little bit about your parents. You said they were professors, I'd love for you to go a little bit deeper because they had some pretty interesting, careers and career paths. 'cause they also had entrepreneurial, businesses and things like that.

So do you mind sharing just a little bit about [00:03:00] what they did?

David Haworth: I could wax eloquently about my parents for, for hours. Uh, they're amazing people who I've always just so looked up to. I mean, of course I was a teenager, so I wasn't abnormal. I'm, I'm sure I thought that they were boring, then, but as I've gotten older, the older I've gotten, the more impressive my. parents were, they, yes, they were economics professors started in the late sixties at Florida State University, sometime in the late seventies with a couple of friends. They were like, you know, this computer thing. Might become something. And so they started a consulting firm, mostly in statistics. Uh, my mother in particular was an econometrics specialist, so the statistics around economics , and they built a company that, Really impressive under any circumstances. So by the early two thousands, they had 200 employees. They had offices in Washington, DC and San Francisco, as well as in Tallahassee, Florida, and about 50 PhDs, all doing, consulting work. And so when I think about it, how it [00:04:00] impacted me and my career, It was normal in my family. I mean, not only was it normal to pursue higher education, when I was growing up, I don't remember thinking that I would stop at, at an undergraduate career, which is, you know what? I wax philosophical. I think. much of that early childhood impact all the way up to your mid twenties is really. Learning what normal should look like. and when you grow up in families where graduate degrees are normal, then that's what's normal. , And say, so also with my parents, it was entrepreneurism was just. Normal. You do it with a safe background , but if you see a need, there's no reason why you shouldn't be the one to help fill that. So yeah, they're pretty special. Um, I could keep going.

Megan Sprinkle: No, that's fine. And that's a, it's a really good start to enter the world, I think, because it, it also gives you some empowerment to, you know, take control and see what you can do [00:05:00] in life. So I, I think that's a, a good start. Yeah.

David Haworth: really any other, any blaming other people. You know, the expectation was if you see a problem, there's no reason why it shouldn't be you to go fix it. and you know, again, it's only when you get a little older do you realize that that's not the philosophy in, in many households.

So it's, again, what's normal for you is not normal for everyone. 

Megan Sprinkle: And I'm sure that came up, uh, many times throughout your life 'cause.

David Haworth: Oh. 

Megan Sprinkle: but you did, you did a lot of it. Advanced degree. And I will say also you did your bachelor's degree at William and Mary I saw, which my brother would be super jealous.

He is a history buff and that is like his dream school. I think he even got a t-shirt and just because he thinks it's cool. So.

David Haworth: tribe. Um, so, uh, uh, it's a funny story about William and Mary. I was a, a lackluster student in high school, to say the least. It was just, I , couldn't find the passion. Classic. when I was interested in something like in biology, it was easy and fun and I [00:06:00] would do well grade-wise if I wasn't.

I mean, I failed trigonometry twice. Um. Not probably 'cause I couldn't handle it. It was just because it was boring to me and I didn't do the work. And I had, I really had to struggle to get my work ethic going. But I swam, and I was a competitive swimmer in Florida. Uh, at that time I was reasonably for that context. And William and Mary gave me a slot to get in based on my SAT scores and swimming, not on my grades. And so William and Mary took a pretty big gamble on, on me. Uh, and you know, after a couple of years I , seemed to find my groove and, and got. So understood what academic, rigor and discipline was, was for.

And so yeah, William and Mary was a fun, uh, very, as most undergraduates experiences are hugely growth. Uh, there are so many names and people there who influenced me strongly. Uh, mostly my peers who would say, you know, you can mess [00:07:00] around David if you want to on Thursday night, but I gotta go study.

And I'd be like, oh, fine, I'll go study with you.

Megan Sprinkle: You found good peers to surround yourself.

David Haworth: Yeah, and I'm sure I found a lot of bad peers too, but luckily good peers, the, the good angels , on this shoulder seemed to win out on that. but it was a very fun place. one of the funny stories is, you know, we used to run before practice, so there was a four mile loop around campus that we would have to run before swim practice, and we would routinely get stopped somewhere in the tourist area of Colonial Williamsburg to take someone's picture and you're like. Why would it occur to you to stop 20 sweating young men who are clearly on do doing something else, but you know, it was Colonial Williamsburg, so that's.

Megan Sprinkle: , Well, good. So time-wise of getting your grades, up is probably good because getting into vet school, does require some grades there.

David Haworth: It

Megan Sprinkle: Um, and so, so you, you did a DVM degree and you also have a PhD in reproductive physiology.

[00:08:00] I gotta , read that. so was that all together or was that kind of spread out?

David Haworth: Yeah, so I, I mentioned my grades. I, my grades didn't start to pick up until after, couple of years in undergraduate. So the best thing that happened at William and Mary is that I met a girl, and, she got into law school, in Colorado. So I. Followed her and then I worked odd jobs and took classes at night to get my grade point up.

So that was about two years gap there, um, which was in retrospect extraordinarily valuable to teach you the value of a 40 or 60 hour work week. Um. Once you got into to vet school. But yeah, I got into Colorado State University at that time. We had a pretty robust, DVM PhD combined program. as far as the reproductive physiology. Choice to get a PhD in that. Uh, one of my professors at the time said, you know, two reasons you go into graduate school for a PhD. One is you are just absolutely fascinated by an area and you want to devote your life [00:09:00] to thinking about it. the other is to get a scientific fishing license to learn from the best people at the university, how to frame questions because. Graduate degrees in my mind, uh, professional degrees and graduate degrees are. Subtly, but importantly different in professional degrees. When you start the program, it is a very writ program. You have options, of course , you can have different concentrations, but when you pass those courses and then you pass some kind of national exam to prove that you weren't a fluke in passing those courses, you are that profession. graduate degrees are different because, you know, to get a PhD at least at that time, I, I think the wording was you had to meaningfully advance the field, so that's a lot more about. There are courses, but it's about how to frame questions and how to really live the scientific method of understanding how to ask a question and then find an answer to that [00:10:00] question.

And, uh, that more than anything else has driven, uh, I mean everything from business decisions to leadership choices to everything since has, has come from that kind of really deep. Understanding. And I, give credit to Gordon Iceman, who was my advisor for my PhD. He was as old school a scientist as you could get. his whole mantra was, what's the damn question you're trying to answer? And, uh, really big guy. There's actually a road named after him now at, uh, on Colorado State Campus. He was a university distinguished professor at the time. And, and just a, difficult, I should say.

But, incredible mentor and teacher and, uh, I owe him a lot.

Megan Sprinkle: It is often the ones who put a little extra pressure on us that we, end up maybe not in the moment, uh, appreciating, but definitely later on can go back and appreciate.

David Haworth: not to, not to fast forward, but my, when I finished my PhD and I went back to vet school, I kind of thought to myself, gosh. After [00:11:00] working as hard as I did for my PhD, I mean, it's not patting myself on the shoulder. It was just the way that that program was structured. You kind of had to finish a PhD in three years and so that's hard.

The average PhD is four and a half years, and so we really dove into it and so it, you know, we all talk about how hard we work and how many hours, but there was a lot of hours put into that program and when I got back to vet school, junior and senior year didn't feel that daunting. So I actually did a postdoctoral fellowship while I was on those last two years of school under a guy named Steve Withrow who, uh, Withrow and McEwen is the clinical oncology text that most of us use. And Steve was famous for being stern. demanding of the people who worked for him. He and I always got along really famously. I, I credit him for so much of the way I approached veterinary medicine and, uh, why I still think cancer is, one of the biggest [00:12:00] challenges. And, and, one of the worthiest enemies that we could have. But, he, he was, uh. Hard and, I agree. It was, those are the kinds of coaches, mentors, leaders that you look back on and you think, wow, I grew so much underneath that. Um, 

Megan Sprinkle: Well this is a very interesting perspective too. 'cause one of the other questions that I often ask people around this time of their journey is. What did you think that you would like life would be like? What were you kind of aiming when it came to being a veterinarian after vet school, and how did that change throughout vet school and, and there's so many influences that you're talking about through this whole process.

So what was that for? You? Did, did you start with one and then like completely change your mind by the, by the end of it? 

David Haworth: uh, you know, our family has a saying that if you look back and you think to yourself, I honestly made the best decision with the information that I [00:13:00] had at the time, from the options that were in front of me, then it's not a bad decision. and so when I, I started the PhD program in reproductive physiology. I will say about halfway through, I started thinking, you know, we figured most of this good stuff out. There's not a lot of unconquered territory in this. Now, of course, there are really good questions to still be asked and , we were just at the cusp of genetic analysis at that time, and that's really where the focus of my PhD is, which genes are being expressed during which parts of the reproductive cycle. But in terms of figuring out how babies are made, we kind of got that. And so then there's the optimization and then figuring out why babies might not be made and in a circumstance, and that stopped appealing to me. And then I went back to vet school, kind of curious, and my Professor Gordon, I Wonderer, who I mentioned, had said to me, well, you know, just finish the vet school thing. It's important, but then we're gonna get you back and we'll do a postdoc and then you'll be a professor someplace. And again, having [00:14:00] been raised as the child of professors, I thought that that wasn't, that's not a bad plan. And, uh, then I saw Steve Withrow take out a splenic tumor, as a third year vet student.

You know, it was like, Hey, there's, you know, surgery going on , and I went in and I saw this thing, and I don't wanna make it too dramatic, but he pulled out of this say, 70 pound dog, a six pound black, nasty vascularized tumor on the spleen. I thought, that's evil like that. I don't know what evil looks like, but I, that kind of feels to me like that's evil. And I went to talk to Dr. Nice Winter and, And I said to him, you know, I, I think I, I have to pivot over to cancer 'cause now's the time, right? You can't establish a long literature path in one branch of physiology and then try to pivot later in your career. And he said, no one's ever gonna [00:15:00] argue that that's a worthy opponent.

And so I started doing that. I wrote two grants. There were some really interesting stuff going on. I wrote two grants to the NIH. Neither of them got funded. And I thought to myself, I don't think I wanna be a veterinarian and never practice veterinary medicine. And so again, pivot. Started interviewing with different practices and ended up going to a practice in Spokane, Washington. 800 square foot practice, two doctors sitting between a Chinese restaurant and a dry cleaners. You can't make it up. it was so archetypal, small animal in a small town. And so that was where I went immediately following vet school. But I will say again, in the pivot, t here was a a time, and I talk about it a lot when I talk to vet students about career paths. I say it was February in Spokane, Washington. Not the most [00:16:00] in uplifting time or setting. I was sitting in my car about to go into practice and I was very, you know, probably on a borderline depressed.

At that time, the practice wasn't working out great. The economics, of course, were very challenging for a young person with kids. My kids at that time were three and five years old, and. I did the math and I thought, okay, so let's just ballpark this. If I saw 5,000 new patients every year, which of course is an over exec, very few people see 5,000 new patients every year, but the math easy, and I have a 20 year career, that means I'm gonna impact a hundred thousand animals. Is that a big number or a small number? I asked vet students that, because I think it is again, back to what's normal for you and is it a big number or a small number? The answer is yes, of course it is a both big number and a small number. , But for me, at that moment. It was a gestalt to say, that's not a big enough number for [00:17:00] me. And I'm willing to have a shallower impact on individuals if I can have a broader impact on a bunch of animals. And so. That was it. , That afternoon started sending out resumes to biotech companies, all through California, the rest of the world. and this is the year 2000. So it was a very weird time in our economy and, uh, world and lightning struck and I was able to get a position at Pfizer Animal Health, which is of course now is Zoetis, and, had, a 11 really great learning years, in that environment. So that, that was sort of the, you, you, the pinball period of, of me ending up kind of where I was earlier in my career. But I got to experience just a whole bunch of different academics, small animal practice, and then finally landing in, larger organizations.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, well, and still having that small animal clinical experience, , [00:18:00] you still get it. Like,

David Haworth: hundred

Megan Sprinkle: I mean, you were in it, you, you get it. So you can carry that forward into those other. Scenarios that really need that perspective, , that perspective is not always there.

So it's really good of, of you. To be able to, to go in with that passion and that insight and that, vision of the purpose behind it. And I was thinking about this when you were talking about your PhD work and how important it was to know the question that you're asking you. You said something about business too, and I was like, you know, I, that is good.

How to learn like business skills from that. 'cause science and business don't. Always mesh super well. Uh, so

David Haworth: I should say scientists and business people

Megan Sprinkle: okay.

David Haworth: don't mesh very well. And, I think that's just a question of, what are we prioritizing? and oftentimes we get this conversation happening in veterinary medicine where veterinarians [00:19:00] are, are not good business people. I think the. issue is that veterinarians are often making decisions based on non-financial priorities. Either it's in the best interest of the animal or it's the best interests of the, of the clinic, and as a result, when say more one dimensional business, people look at those decisions either in prospect or retrospect, then they're saying, oh, that was a, a bad business decision.

And you think, Hmm. Nope. Nope. , It was a good decision whether it had financial implications that you wouldn't have chosen. so I, I, yes, I, I think that the, the real thing it, when you're fundamentally asking questions, it's what are you really asking? and that, carries through all walks of life.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. if you could summarize that like a decade of your career, uh, your, your experience with Pfizer,

David Haworth: Yeah.

Megan Sprinkle: like what do you feel like were some of the most impactful things that [00:20:00] you learned during that time that you could take to the next step?

David Haworth: Oh, two things. Uh, first thing I found out that I, I really love getting a group of individuals. Aligned onto the same path. and oftentimes you go into these things thinking that you're all on the same path, but I, I think that's the subtle art of leadership is, is making sure that. Everyone has articulated and had an opportunity to talk about where they think this path goes, and then having a, a consensus position or in a, in absence of consensus, if that's just impossible, then having a very clear autocratic decision of, nope, that's the next step that we're gonna go. And, you know, I always. Tell people that if they can early in their career, go someplace that is resource rich, like a large organization, uh, because you can do all the things there, the training, the learning and development issues that, that you, you really can't get anywhere else. And even if you [00:21:00] choose to do something very different. When you're in a smaller organization, at least you're doing that from a position of understanding, oh, okay, so maybe I don't wanna pay for the Microsoft suite in my little startup, but I know what that looks like. And so now this is just a variance off of that, which is easier for our brains to, to deal with is variations off something that's known as opposed to something completely different.

Blank slate. so that's one. Number two, I found out that I really like. Business. the throwaway line is that I, I love reading the Wall Street Journal as much as I like reading scientific journals. And, just because of the dynamic that it allows us to have. Business is sort of, you know, it's, it's hunting parties and village life fast forwarded 2000 years.

Um, it's how do you get along with people with different priorities, different needs? How do you predict what others, customers, really want. And, uh, you know, sometimes you're right, [00:22:00] sometimes you're not. sometimes other things come into play. But, those 11 years that, uh, uh, you know, great mentors, terrific people, that was also a really g. Amazing time at Pfizer Animal Health. it was a training ground for a whole lot of future leaders in the industry. now as I walk down the halls at VMX, I see as many of my old colleagues and it's always enjoyable. You know, there was, uh, very few unenjoyable people there.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Well those are fantastic. And I'm smiling 'cause I'm learning a lot of those lessons too, you had mentioned when you were sitting in your car outside of the clinic trying to figure out like what's your number when it comes to like impact.

As you were getting into a ginormous company like Pfizer. Yes. You talked about it's, resource rich, which is something I also was intrigued very quickly, and was looking for. And those are all great for personal growth and, and, and just learning about yourself on top of like all these other things in [00:23:00] life.

Um, were you often clear on that impact that you were having since that was kind of the motivation?

David Haworth: No, no. There were so many times. I, I remember specifically walking down the stairwell in Groton, Connecticut, complaining to my father. About like, oh, they don't, you know, I'm not getting appreciated. I'm not getting the good work. Somebody else got this role and I really wanted it. And I remember him just being quiet for a second after I kind of got out of energy and he goes, yeah, but the paychecks are still clearing, right? I mean, you're. still getting paychecks every two weeks. And I was like, that's a really good perspective to have. So, , sometimes it was just a job.

No, I didn't. But you know, I think in retrospect, so for instance, we, reformulated a lepto spiral vaccine. Uh, you, you may not remember better back in the nineties, lepto, you know, it was widespread zoonotic disease, important disease. The vaccines were pretty messy and you got a lot of reactivity. [00:24:00] So, you know, many practices, it doesn't matter what the adverse events that the pharma company says.

Uh, if you've had one little white dog have a bad reaction on the way home, uh, and had to explain to that owner. Why it was so important to get that vaccine. You generally don't wanna give that vaccine to little white dogs anymore. so we were reformulating and cleaning it, and I happened to be the lead on that team, learned so much about the nuts and bolts of how these things happen and , how we get regulated products approved. but most importantly, you know, three years into sales, 

we 

had sold 40 million vaccines. I was like, okay. You know, I had a little bit of that and one of the comments that I've heard, and I, I really agree with is that it's an area under the curve question. it's hard to be, as a corporate person, it's really hard to be a hero on any given day.

If you're an emergency veterinarian, you are a hero. Sometimes you're not a hero, but, [00:25:00] but oftentimes you are a hero to a family, and that's deep impact. When you're in corporate world, your impact is a lot more shallow, but a lot broader. So does anybody know that I, you know, before they listen to your podcast, does anybody remember that I led that team?

probably not. Uh, and did I have very much impact? No. It was a team of, you know, 50, 70 people, but I know that it was a better vaccine and I had a little bit of nudge into that. And so that was an impact, that I did get to see. And part of mental health is reminding yourself of the impacts that you really did have and in a realistic, non-inflationary way. and so, yeah, the short answer to your question, uh, was no. Probably I didn't see the impact very often, but yes, in retrospect, there was some moments there where we pushed 

Megan Sprinkle: thank you and you, you so well explained a little [00:26:00] bit of the difference when it comes to impact in a clinical setting versus the broader corporate setting too. So people are, you know, you can kind of see the difference, but I think either one, it's important to stop and reflect and ask yourself those questions.

'cause I think. It's very easy to keep going and getting lost and just getting frustrated and then calling your, and hopefully you call your father who reminds you, of the reality check and allow you to think about, oh, okay, I got it. Thanks for letting me, um, I'll be back in.

David Haworth: I have two doctor's degrees, but I kind of needed that little reminder. you, dad.

Megan Sprinkle: No matter how many degrees we are ultimately still human, so, now I'm like thinking back, oh, wait a minute. You said that you, you had this enemy of cancer, so did where did that come in? Did that ever come back or,

David Haworth: It does, it came back, it was always there.

Megan Sprinkle: okay.

David Haworth: I was at Pfizer and ideas would come about, I would always be the guy pushing cancer therapies. And, you know, I would still [00:27:00] say one of the travesties of life is that we as veterinarians are by and large still using the cancer therapeutics that I was trained on. Years and years and years ago, decades ago, there's been very little new, and that's contrasted to. Our friends in the human health profession, there are 250 personalized cancer therapies approved by the FDA, mostly based on genetic testing. And so much later I had an opportunity to found Genomic Diagnostic Company co-found with my friend Will Hendricks, called Vidium Animal Health.

And, that's where it came back clearly, so learning all, uh, relearning about cancer genetics and, and the fascinating things that we're finding out about cancer genomics was really helpful, I never left it. Uh, also, got to spend a lot of time at Morris Animal Foundation trying to better understand cancer in our pets.

And, uh, so including the Golden Retriever lifetime study, which really [00:28:00] was at its heart. A longitudinal study to find environmental, nutritional, and genetic causes of cancer. 

Megan Sprinkle: that is interesting. And of course you picked a great poster child for cancer in the golden retriever

David Haworth: I did,

Megan Sprinkle: to look at that. super fascinating. , Because this is such a, a huge study. Like it's still referenced today, we're still leveraging this information. Do you mind sharing a little bit, about that story, uh, a little bit deeper?

David Haworth: I think it's the reason that I actually. Got the job of president, CEO at Morris Animal Foundation. So my predecessor there, Patty Olson, amazing human being, this was, an idea that was born on a bus at. before it was VMX, when it was still NAVC.

And for those of you who might not remember, for a long time at NAVC, you had to travel between the Gaylord Hotel and the Marriott to, in order to, get all of the lectures. And so, people still lament that you don't have these. [00:29:00] Spontaneous conversations that happen on a bus when you sit down next to a stranger for your 12 to 15 minute ride between the two venues. but Betty Morris of the Morris family sat down next to Rod Page, , who at, was until, until about three or four years ago. He directed, he was also at Colorado State. He was Steve Withrow, successor at the Animal cancer Center. And Rod and Betty said, well, what's, you know, what's really missing? In our understanding cancer and, and Rod said, we don't have any big longitudinal studies following a large cohort of animals through their lives. And the advantage for anyone who's listening and it's not obvious is that you follow an animal all the way through its life. If you're documenting that life very carefully, then you get to the end and some animals develop a disease, whether that's mitral valve disease or. Hemangiosarcoma of the spleen, and some of them have developed that, but then you also have a lot of them that didn't. And you can try to piece [00:30:00] apart what's different about the lives, the genetics, the nutrition, the whatever of this group of animals that developed the disease. And so the Golden Retriever lifetime study was 3000 golden retrievers in homes across North America.

And every year the owners would fill out a pretty deep questionnaire. I used to call it a two glass of wine questionnaire 'cause it would take you that long. And, about everything around that dog's lifestyle and what they ate, where they lived, how they lived, where they slept, how much exercise they got, et cetera.

And then the dog would go to the veterinarian. The veterinarian would fill out a. , Much smaller questionnaire 'cause we knew what we were asking of them. But also we got bios samples from each of these dogs. So we got about 65 mils of blood. We had urine, feces, hair samples, nail samples, and of course the genetic swabs were done early , in their lives.

And so we. they have, a huge bio [00:31:00] repository of information, not just actual biological samples, but data samples as well. And so, yeah, ideally, it's going to be a fantastic resource for. A bunch of studies and findings that happen as we go along. And, and yeah, we did pick golden retrievers primarily because we know that they're overrepresented with cancer. Uh, but also we had a credible support from the Golden Retriever, association of America, so the Golden Retriever club, and so there, there were a lot of reasons. I also smile when people say, you know, yeah, but how applicable are those to other breeds? And , when we talk about models, experimental models, I think golden retrievers are a reasonable model for dogs. 'cause they're dogs, you know? 

Megan Sprinkle: it's helpful to have as many controls as possible. And so getting a single breed

David Haworth: Yes.

Megan Sprinkle: some of the confounding factors when I, when you're looking at all of these things. So,

David Haworth: [00:32:00] that's

Megan Sprinkle: um.

David Haworth: I mean, most golden retrievers are kissing cousins of each other, and so by, by reducing that genetic variability, it actually helped us be able to, to piece apart things.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. So what, for your perspective, like what is your favorite thing that you learned from this study?

David Haworth: Oh, well, I'm pretty biased. I had participant number 1,199, uh, was my dog Bridger. and, Bridger passed just last summer, uh, at a, a good Lee age, almost 14. And, um. You know, being able to participate in that and seeing the, I'll get to what the actual finding is that, that I, that I get excited about.

but there's right now a lot of confirmatory studies that happen. and I think sometimes we, as. Some might say overeducated individuals don't like confirmatory studies because we say, well, we obviously knew [00:33:00] that. but I, I would make an argument that confirmatory studies are the foundation by which we build good new knowledge and, I think we will talk about HABRI, uh, a little bit later, but the point is, you learn what you already know. And what we found was the main types of cancer. We actually have solid numbers. When I was going through training, you know, we had pretend numbers. Uh, we think that golden retrievers get a lot of lymphoma, hemangiosarcoma, , osteosarcoma. But we didn't have real numbers associated with that because all you could really do is find, how many hemangiosarcomas in golden retrievers had presented to the Penn vet, , small animal hospital and in their database, and then estimate how many is in that catchment area.

And so then you estimate how many pets have gotten cancer. From that, now we have a real clear understanding and we have a denominator and enumerator. And so we know it. I, to me, right now, that's really where the value is coming out, is that [00:34:00] we're getting very clear, very robust and very well numerated, confirmatory data samples.

So what's a normal AST as the dog progresses? You know, very, there are very few places in the world where you got every year, uh, the same group of animals. Getting full biochemist chemical profiles, and some of those, I think some of the really exciting stuff is going to become how do we predict and prognosticate what's gonna happen based on early indicators?

And you, you know, some of the stuff coming out of IDEXX right now, some of the stuff coming out of Antech. Very exciting when you start saying, okay, that's not out of normal range. I'm seeing a trend and we probably need to think about being proactive, which gets into longevity research and the stuff that gets me really excited right now at this point in my career.

Megan Sprinkle: Exactly. And if people listen to me enough, they know I, I am, I have an interest in technology. And that's also where I think technology can accelerate. Some of our understanding is the ability [00:35:00] to handle a lot of the data so far, uh, 

David Haworth: non-obvious

Megan Sprinkle: models.

David Haworth: I think is one, one of the true real values of ai. Uh, I think, you know, because , these are huge and complex data sets that we really don't understand and someone's gonna have to help us 'cause our brains. We don't have the tools in here to be able to do it ourselves.

but, but AI certainly can, they don't, it doesn't get distracted and tired like I do. 

Megan Sprinkle: that is such a cool experience and, led into the getting to a whole nother company of where you could really start to dive even more into the genetics and, and cancer and things like that. Um, becoming president of, is it Vimium?

David Haworth: It was video. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Megan Sprinkle: Yep. animal health.

So what was the story about getting that role and what did you exactly do there? And you may have to break it down for me 'cause I'm still trying to figure out exactly what what it is.

David Haworth: I think that the, the ugly truth is so am I. Um,

Megan Sprinkle: Okay.

David Haworth: Uh, so [00:36:00] after I, after I left Morris, Morris Animal Foundation, I was president of PetSmart

Megan Sprinkle: Oh. Okay.

David Haworth: So I was a senior Vice president of PetSmart, president of Charities in the US and in Canada. , In Canada, it, PetSmart Charities is by and far the largest of the animal welfare charities. Uh, amazing. Organizations. So at $15 million a year going to rescues and shelters in Canada, about $70 million a year going in the US. It is the power of the point of sale. I used to, I used to smile a lot and that, really, this is about guilt. so you just bought a $15 toy for your dog who probably doesn't need another $15 toy, and, someone reminds you that, oh, you could also give a dollar, $2, $5, $10 to help pets in need. and so 22% of people who use their credit card at PetSmart, in fact. Give and the average donation is a $1.56. it was the best [00:37:00] job that you can have. You know, very few people will ever come and yell at you as the head of that charity saying, you didn't do what I wanted you to do. And you know, because I gave you a dollar 56. so fantastic exposure to animal welfare. Again, it was another large. Organization that I, I got to navigate sometimes successfully, , sometimes not so successfully. And got to really go deep and understand the animal welfare community as well as a retail organization. After about four years, uh, I transitioned out of PetSmart Charities I was done reporting to boards and I was I was just gonna be a consultant. Consulting seemed like it was a fun, easy thing for me to do. and one of my early, consultant was a, a building up a business plan for a brilliant professor at the Translational Genomics Research Institute in Phoenix, will Hendricks, who has a real passion around the genomics, of [00:38:00] cancer. And so. To make it as straightforward as you can. Cancer is a disease of the genes. so as mutations happen, it turns on or turns off genes that allow cells to become stupid and stop paying attention to the rules and the rule. The biggest rule, of course, is you don't divide uncontrollably, and if you do divide a lot, you make sure that you're respecting every other organ in the body, every other cell in the body, and cancer cells just don't. They divide uncontrollably and they ignore the needs of the whole, which is ultimately how they kill us. Turns out we understand a lot, mainly through humans, and the fact that human genetics is very similar to canine genetics in many ways.

So we can use that as a base of understanding of the genomics of cancer in dogs. And so what this company essentially did was. , Took a piece of the tumor sequenced it for 260 known [00:39:00] cancer genes and when we got that information, okay, this tumor, no matter what it is or what name we've put on it, this tumor. Has these mutations and therefore might be susceptible to this drug, which isn't approved for dogs because the markets are just never gonna be big enough for those drugs to get approved for this narrow indication of her two positive mammary carcinoma, but in humans it has been. And of course, thanks to the Animal Drug Use Clarification Act, we as veterinarians can use things off label.

And so, uh, we would encourage and try to help educate veterinarians to use these drugs, which could be applicable and might see impact. And we saw tremendous success. there were a lot of cancers that looked like they were. You know, buy the small bag of dog food, don't buy the big dog bag of dog food kind of cases.

And, those animals are still with us. because we had some [00:40:00] really inquisitive, progressive veterinarians who wanted to give their patients the very best shot that they could.

Megan Sprinkle: Hmm, you, you are fighting the devil, the evil.

David Haworth: Uh, well, you know, in that case, I think, uh, certainly with a, a, a great team of, people, we, we might have been able to impact it at least in a few cases. That company was acquired by ANA in uh, 20, at the end of 23. 

Megan Sprinkle: you've done so much. Uh, so I'm running out of time, of course, uh, to be able to ask you about everything. I wish I could. so I'm going to ask three questions. They're probably gonna be big. So let's see. The first one is I did wanna go back because like you said, you've worked with PetSmart charities, which I think is.

A unique perspective of understanding, pet need and how that's connected to human beings, but then also your work with HABRI and understanding the human animal bond. We had such a good conversation [00:41:00] and you. Pointed out something that was really unique about the relationship with pets and you, you compared it even to, human relationships with our children

David Haworth: Right.

Megan Sprinkle: how, when we have pets, it's different because it's.

A promise that we are gonna take care of them until basically forever and ever, until we, we death do us part. And with children, well, we adore them and hope, yes, that we raise them in a way that they wanna come back and visit. Sometimes we are raising them to go off on their own where we are no longer responsible for them.

So I, I would love for you to share a little bit about what you have learned and where you are today when it comes to the human animal bond.

David Haworth: Sure. that's a big question. So we started the Human Animal Bond Research Institute in 2010. And , there were four of us, at the beginning. Bob Vetere from the American Pet Products Association, Charlie Piscatello from Petco, Mike McFarland, and me at Pfizer Animal Health.

And the Mike, ended [00:42:00] up being Global Chief Medical Officer for, Zoetis. still one of my dearest friends, but he and I had to split the budget. I was in business development at the time. He was in operations, and, we. Both and exited that meeting saying we've got budget this year. Uh, for anybody who's lived in large organizations, you know, if you don't use all your budget, you don't generally get the same budget next year, which seems like a strange hamster wheel to be on, but it's still the game that you play. And, I said, yep, great, but I don't wanna be on the board. And he said, well, I don't wanna be on the board and we're both too busy for this. And so we did the way all great decisions of life should be done, which is rock, paper, scissors. and Mike lost. And so Mike went onto the board, but then. They, conspired, I would say, against me and said, well, you're the only one here with a, a science background.

You need to lead the research working group. and I have led that happily and, and proudly ever since. so we've done [00:43:00] I think there's about 60 studies that have been funded through HABRI. It's a really unique organization, cross industry where lots of different players, different types of companies have been associated with it and are sponsors of these studies. And really it comes down to the heart of our industry, which, you know, all of us. Base our businesses on the human animal bond, and there's a lot that we already know about the human animal bond. It goes back to the confirmatory studies. Uh, so for instance, we've done a lot of work with, therapy dogs in hospitals and how do those actually impact?

And so my favorite studies is that it shows when you have in pediatric intensive care units, if there is a therapy dog present, it reduces the amount of sedation and pain control drugs which are administered to these patients. you think, well, yeah, that makes sense, but you didn't have any science behind it.

You didn't have the data to be able to then go to the [00:44:00] hospital administrators around the country and say, Hey, look, this is a well done study. We know we can help you if you allow for therapy dogs to be in these hospitals. so what have I learned around the human animal bond? one is that perpetually pediatric relationship that we really have.

We, we don't have good words for it in English. but I do think this is not like, they're not fur babies or maybe they are eternal fur babies. They're always going to be babies, even though they're maybe senior pets. And then the, the second thing is I, I think it's really important to recognize that the human animal bond is actually very species dependent. the bond that I've had with cats who have shared my world with me is a very different bond than the bonds that I've had with dogs who've shared my world with me. And the same goes for people who have deep connections with their horses or with cattle or, or for that matter, even with, reptiles or with fish. I mean, I think that we need to [00:45:00] respect those things. And, I love the fact that we're having a renaissance of, of cat care right now, where people are really starting to understand that cats have been under appreciated from a commercial or product sense as, as well as just. Underappreciated. The, the bond that we have with cats is so different, unique, but also extremely valuable. Or, you know, it's, there's no lesser or greater than, it's just different. I love this concept of the human animal bond and the way that pets, animals have positioned themselves or been positioned in our society now and, and also watching on a global scale and seeing how it's happening in different parts of the world.

just saw this really cool video about a dog beach, and Woofstock that happened in in Dubai. Uh, so you know, not exactly where you would say this is the heart of the human animal bond, but. It was huge. There were thousands of dogs [00:46:00] running around having a great time, and pet owners all getting to

enjoy that experience together.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, we could do a whole podcast on that. I, I have a big heart for it as well, so, well, it, it kind of leads. Alright, we'll schedule that one. Um, the, the second one and that, I guess that kind of goes into it. 'cause you've, you've hinted at a few things and you come from such a cool perspective I love at this time of year to really ask a lot of people, like, what are you seeing as the future of veterinary medicine, whether it's the next year, you know, beyond like, what are you. Seeing.

David Haworth: So, so I would say that the biggest thing that I'm seeing is the disintermediation of the veterinary profession. I don't know how I feel about it

Megan Sprinkle: Okay.

David Haworth: I will admit to mixed feelings, but I, I think that we may, as a profession, have allowed the human animal bond to outgrow us a little bit. I think people still [00:47:00] love their veterinarians, and I think any, honestly, given the opportunity, anybody would much rather get any pet advice from their veterinarian. I get phone calls from friends and family once a week about their pets.

And so I, I think people would always choose to, if they have the opportunity. I don't think many people have the opportunity. And one of the things that I've come to see, you know, my most recent role was at a direct to consumer company, embark, veterinary, where I led the science in business development teams and that direct to consumer. hammered home for me that people want to be the best pet parent that they can possibly be no matter who they are, where their circumstances lie. I am not tremendously worried that pets are going to be, relegated only to high income people. I think the human animal bond is much stronger than that and people will have pets in their lives if they can. I think that will, they find veterinary care for them is a really important question. And I think as we go into [00:48:00] 2026, I think as a profession either need to put real concerted effort into how do we stay relevant, credible providers of information to most pet parents. Or we need to watch the train, pull outta the station.

'cause the train's pulling outta the station regardless of whether we're on it or not. And I, I think that is both generational. I think it's also some something to do with technology. I think that this is a, a real important time for our profession if we want to stay. If not, you know, I mean my, uh, optometrist. You know, I don't have a deep relationship with them. I, when my children were little, I did have a fairly deep relationship with their pediatrician. so do we, where do we wanna go as a profession? Do we wanna stay as pediatricians where I think we have traditionally held that space? do we want to go to a place where, you know, maybe we don't have that centrality, [00:49:00] that center of gravity, uh, for pet parents universes.

Um, and, and maybe, you know, somebody else will fi fill that need for them.

Megan Sprinkle: Hmm. yeah, that's a good point. It's a big year to kind of make a decision and start acting upon it if we wanna do something about it. So.

David Haworth: I mean, I think right now we as a profession are, are very inward focused. Uh, you know, whether it's labor issues or educational issues or, or, you know, mid-level practitioners. And I think those are all really important conversations to have, make no mistake about it. But I think we are so focused on each other right now, uh, as a profession and our own health and, and how do we keep our house together? We're not really paying attention to the neighborhood. And the neighborhood is, you know, they're moving on the, the pet parents are. If they're gonna find information, somewhere

Megan Sprinkle: Hmm.

David Haworth: you know, if it's medical information, I sure hope it's still veterinarians or veterinary based resources, but I don't know.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Ooh. Leave that with a big thought, uh, [00:50:00] bubble over head at the end. Uh, no. Well, and so I always love to end on gratitude though, so we, we always leave on a good, good note.

David Haworth: Killed

Megan Sprinkle: Uh, so when I say what's something you're really grateful for, what are the first things that come to your mind?

David Haworth: Oh, you know, I, I am, I am so grateful for the people in my life and, and, and let me just. Back step a second. I'm not really sure if that's a negative thing. Uh, this, this idea that veterinarians aren't the centrality point. I mean, I think we all, there's a part of us that would like to stay central.

Everyone wants to be central. but really for the betterment of the 90 million dogs and, you know, a hundred million cats that we have in North America alone, we're a small profession. we might not be able to meet all the needs that are there, and so maybe we shouldn't be so discouraged that there's a void that will eventually be filled.

I'm a, a big believer in the free market, and so whether of us are part of that or just not, so I am grateful for that as well. I'm, [00:51:00] I think we have a lot of challenges as a society right now. I think that there are some trends that aren't positive, but I see so many positive trends, particularly when it comes to pets and the way people feel about pets in their lives.

Uh, and so I've got a lot of gratitude about everything in my life. Uh, but I think for the purposes of this conversation, I've got a little 3-year-old golden Retriever who's sleeping right next to me with her little lamb. , So, uh, I'm pretty grateful for her too.

Megan Sprinkle: Aw, 

David gives us a lot to think about. He brings such a broad and important pet health industry perspective. He can speak to some of the most innovative spaces in veterinary medicine and speak from the point of view of today's pet parent. As David warned, the train is pulling out of the station regarding the future of pet care.

Now is a decision moment if we will remain The trusted pediatrician as a pivotal part of the human [00:52:00] animal bond or watch from the station platform. If you want to learn more about the possibilities in veterinary medicine and challenge your perspective, please follow the show and leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.

And if you have thoughts about this episode, I would love to hear them. Use the text link in the show notes. To share them with us. I wanna thank our individual sponsors who support our podcast platform, Buzzsprout. If you wanna support the podcast or have suggestions on sponsors, please reach out to hello@vetlifereimagined.com.

And until next time, keep reimagining what's possible in veterinary life.