The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Tim Ahlman Podcast is your go-to resource for inspiring conversations that equip leaders to thrive in every vocation, inside and outside the church. With three primary focuses, this podcast dives deep into:
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The Tim Ahlman Podcast
The Science of the Shroud of Turin: Unlocking the Mystery of Jesus' Resurrection
The Shroud of Turin contains mysteries that have baffled scientists for decades, offering compelling evidence for the resurrection of Jesus through radiation signatures that cannot be explained by conventional science.
• A detailed exploration of the Shroud of Turin's physical characteristics, including the negative image containing 3D information
• Scientific evidence showing the image is not a painting, scorch, liquid, or photograph as determined by the Shroud of Turin Research Project
• Explanation of how the 1988 carbon dating (suggesting 1260-1390 AD) was affected by neutron absorption from radiation
• Evidence dating the Shroud to the first century, including ancient stitching patterns and new dating methodologies
• Nuclear engineer Bob Rucker's "Vertically Collimated Radiation Burst" hypothesis explaining image formation
• Discussion on how the Shroud provides scientific evidence for dimensional transition during resurrection
• Connection between current physics theories about higher dimensions and the resurrection event
• Detailed examination of the crucifixion evidence on the Shroud, including accurate anatomical details not known in medieval times
The Shroud of Turin represents a convergence of faith and science - physical evidence of the resurrection that continues to challenge our understanding of physics and provide a powerful testimony to Jesus' victory over death.
So the context information for the resurrection of Jesus. We have Old Testament prophecies and we have Jesus' own predictions of his prophecy that were fulfilled. But then there's eyewitness testimony Two classes there. We have the empty tomb, testimony of the empty tomb and testimony of Jesus' post-resurrection appearances. But we've never had scientific evidence for his resurrection before. We only have that now with the Shroud of Turin, with what we're saying here, because of the evidence for radiation causing the image and causing the shifting of the carbon date.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive, I pray. The joy of Jesus is yours. He is so in love with you. He's called you, he's claimed you in the waters of baptism and he's invited you into the adventure of a lifetime which is locating where he is at, in the world, where he is at work, drawing all people. We know this connected to Scripture, that God wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. The truth is Jesus, revealed in his person and work, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, his ascension, the descension of the Holy Spirit and his return to make all things new. We are wrapped up, enveloped in the greatest love story of all time, and today we get to hang out with Bob Rucker and Dr Trey Cox and we're going to be talking about the Shroud of Turin.
Speaker 2:Now some opening comments from my perspective. Some people say why do we even need? You know? Jesus said blessed are those who have not seen and have yet believed. Right, and I believe that the eyewitness reports are enough.
Speaker 2:And there are certain things that are popping up today in terms of dating of certain materials that were very evidently left, the Jesus burial cloth being one of them that are very curious, that are very, very interesting, and there are a lot of scientists. It's funny how science kind of catches up with scripture. There are some scientists who are looking at something like the Shroud of Turin and saying, wow, we should look more deeply at this. And one of those scientists is Bob Rucker. Let me tell you about him and, for those of you that are on YouTube, we actually have his slide deck that we're going to be following along here so you get to see.
Speaker 2:He graduated from the University of Michigan nuclear engineering master's. He had 38 years in the nuclear industry nuclear analysis, computer calculations, statistical analysis of measurement data Then 11 years now in Shroud Research. You can find 39 papers that he has written at shroudresearchnet and he's organized the International Conference on the Shroud of Turin, also known as the ICST, in 2017. Our goal today is to explain the mysteries and promote the future testing of the Shroud of Turin. How you doing, bob? Thanks for hanging with us today.
Speaker 1:I'm doing fine. That was a wonderful introduction, by the way.
Speaker 2:Oh well, thank you. We're going to have a great time, so let's get into it. What is the Shroud of Turin Bob?
Speaker 1:Yes, well, a shroud, of course, is a burial cloth. Turin is a city in northwestern Italy, so when we refer to the Shroud of Turin, what we're referring to is a burial cloth that has been in Turin since 1578. We'll get into the history of it a little bit later, but it's made of a linen thread made from the flax plant. There's about a hundred or more fibers in a linen thread and it's woven into a three-to-one herringbone weave, which would make it very expensive. Therefore, joseph of Arimathea, of course, was a very wealthy man, so he could have purchased it. So it's about 14 feet, a little over five inches long, three feet, almost eight inches wide. But the unique thing about this piece of cloth it's a linen cloth is that it contains front and dorsal or back images of a crucified man that was crucified exactly as Jesus was crucified. So what is it? Could it be authentic? That's the question.
Speaker 2:That is the question. Do you have any kind of estimate on how much such a burial cloth would have been in and what that cost would be like in today's terms? Bob Any idea there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really don't. I've never heard that estimated.
Speaker 2:Okay, but it was expensive and it was large and it was relatively. I mean, it's a thick piece of linen cloth, is that correct, bob?
Speaker 1:It's about as thin as a man's t-shirt.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it's not exceptionally thick.
Speaker 1:No, it's less than a millimeter in thickness, usually regarded as being about 0.35 millimeters uh in thickness, but it's very pliable. Uh, it's uh. Linen has a characteristic of being highly resistant to insects, so if kept away from fire and moisture, it'll last for thousands and thousands of years, which is why we have a copy of it. Well, we have the original.
Speaker 2:We have the original.
Speaker 1:We have the original.
Speaker 2:Which is mind-blowing. So let's get into some of the images on the Shroud of Turin. For those that are on YouTube, you can kind of see this and yeah, you got this. Well, just explain it, I'm going to stop talking.
Speaker 1:Yes, first photograph was taken in 1898 by Segundapia. But with the unaided eye it would look as we have on the top image here. There's two long scorch marks running horizontally on either side of the image, but the image is in between those scorch marks. On the left side is the front image with the feet to the left and the head to the right. On the right side is the back or dorsal image with the head to the left and feet to the right, so it's a head-to-head image.
Speaker 1:Now that image is a very low contrast so it shows up better under photography because photography automatically enhances the contrast. So the bottom image there shows the same, only in the camera negative. But it's interesting, the camera negative turns out to be a positive image, which means that the image on the shroud itself is a negative image. Now, at that point in time when the photograph was first taken in 1898, they thought it must be some kind of a painting. But an artist or a painter could not paint what he had never seen and he would have never seen a negative image at that point in history. So that just threw the analysis into disarray. At that point they didn't know what to make of it.
Speaker 2:It's such a.
Speaker 1:So every 10 years or so it might go on display a few times. It was on display, for example, in 1978, on the 400th anniversary of it coming into Turin, and so that's the photograph that I'll show you in a little bit.
Speaker 2:This is unbelievable. There's so many things about this, yeah, so let's go into detail. On the frontal image here this is spectacular.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So on the front image here from the top down, we have puncture wounds around the scalp. We have swollen cheek and nose from a beating. The nose is dislocated, not the bones broken, but the cartilage is evidently broken. There's a two-inch wide elliptical wound in the side, just the size of a Roman thrusting spear, with blood and a clear blood serum running down, so that the heart had already stopped at the time that that wound was created. It's a post-mortem wound, so the red blood cells were settling out of the clear blood serum and that's why we have the two different components coming out of that wound. We have the blood coming down the arms on either side. Interesting that, the blood is coming down at two different angles, corresponding to the two different angles that are created when the person being crucified pushes up and down to breathe. He has to push up and down, thus causing his arms to go into two different angles. And that's shown on the Shroud of Turin.
Speaker 1:The nail is through the wrist, not through the middle of the palm, because if it went through the palm there'd be no bone structure above it. It would simply tear out under the weight of the body. But in ancient times in Jewish culture, the hand went down to the middle of the forearm so that it, going into his wrist, would be called into his hand Interesting. That nail going through the location just above the wrist, at the very bottom of his palm, probably at a little bit of an angle, would have crushed the nerve which was gathering all of the nerves from the hand, and so it would have been extremely painful. This is where they get the term excruciating excruciating pain, but that would then automatically fold the thumbs over. I believe that's correct, and that's what we see on the shroud here. The paintings in the Middle Ages show the nail wound through the palm with the thumbs prominently displayed. So all the paintings from the Middle Ages get it wrong, but the Shroud of Turin gets it right.
Speaker 2:So, the thumb would have been in like this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so the Shroud of Turin is not from the Middle Ages. You can tell that just from the location of the nail wound and the thumbs.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what you say, Bob, that this is a hoax, right, because the original. So get into the dating kind of theories if you will. It may be coming later, but let's just like dismiss the folks that say, hey, this is only from a thousand years old or something like that, rather than 2000,. Roughly years old, bob. Could you get into that a bit?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I'll get into that quite a bit later, but basically the only evidence against the authenticity of the shroud, I think or at least the main evidence is the carbon dating, and they dated samples from the corner of the shroud. I'll show that to you. And the answer to that carbon dating, done by three different laboratories, was that it dated from 1260 to 1390. But it's interesting that two of the laboratories didn't agree with each other. They were statistically different values, so that something strange is going on. Well, as it turns out, there's not just one result from carbon dating, there's actually four. And this correct scientific solution to what the data is has to explain all four of those evidences, not just one. We'll get into that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, yes, exactly, so keep going down. You got scourge marks here. Here's something wild. So you talk about puncture wounds. I heard recently there are. There's a ridiculous amount of puncture wounds in his in his head from the very long Bethlehem type of like the crown of thorns was very, very, very. That would have hurt exceptionally. It's they were long right. Get into how many puncture wounds we see both in his head as well as in the rest of his body from the beating.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I've never heard of anyone counting the number of wounds in the scalp, but I suppose that's certainly possible to do. But you know, there might be 20, 25, I would imagine, in the scalp.
Speaker 2:I'd heard 30, roughly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, somewhere in that range, and you know I haven't counted them, that was just my best guess. But so over the whole body I think there's like 120 is the usual estimate, and that's from the flogging. That was done so that each strike, the tool there that was used in the flogging would have had three different leather thongs coming out with a sharp or an item on the end tied into the end that looked like a miniature dumbbell. So it left two different marks with each stroke of the tool. A lot of marks, a lot of marks, a lot of marks. Interesting that we have nose and knee abrasions on one knee with dirt in them, and on the tip of the nose and on one knee there are abrasions with dirt in it, consistent with one or more falls that jesus took in carrying his cross just the horizontal, I think didn't they date that dirt?
Speaker 2:we know that dirt bob is from first century jerusalem.
Speaker 1:Like it is dirt yeah, yes, yes, the components of it are consistent with that dirt being from jerusalem. Also interesting here there's actually a side strip to this cloth. It's about 5.2 inches I kind of forget, or 3.2 inches wide. That was evidently cut off at some point and then sewn back on, maybe in the company, the manufacturing company. They actually made this piece of cloth in the first century. But the interesting thing is that the sewing of that seam was done with a stitch that's unique, though most similar to a, a stitch that was on a piece of cloth from Masada that was destroyed in 73 to 74 AD. So that stitch on that seam dates this cloth to the first century.
Speaker 2:That's extraordinary Frontal image. All right, dorsal image yeah.
Speaker 1:So again, we have puncture wounds on the back of the head. Now these puncture wounds are not just from a ringlet, as it's commonly pictured around the head, but it was a cap of thorns that was then beat on with rods. So you have these long thorns, two to two and a half inches long, then beat into a scalp. Extremely painful to have a wound in your scalp like that, and this was probably done by Pontius Pilate to create compassion amongst the people. But they still. How evil the people were at that point. They still wanted him to be crucified as well. So he was, you know, I think, very uncommon to both scourge and crucify a person, but this person was, and I believe this is Jesus. Crucify a person, but this person was, and I believe this is Jesus.
Speaker 1:So another thing to notice was that there were abrasions on his shoulders consistent with him carrying a rough, heavy object and of course, people who read their Bible realize that Jesus carried the cross and then we have a flow of blood, and the blood from the side wound then flowed across the small of his back and we can see that on this dorsal or back image. On the feet we have two nails through the feet. Well, what they did was they put one nail through the heel of one foot and then they took the other foot and crossed it over top of the previous foot and put one nail through both feet. Previous foot and put one nail through both feet. There are two points to this. It is that this would allow one foot to rotate because it only has one nail in it, consistent with him having to push up and down to breathe.
Speaker 1:A second interesting point here is that you can see that the two feet are bent together, indicating that his feet were in rigor mortis after death, because he was on the cross for perhaps three hours or so after he had died, maybe more than that, but that would be long enough for the muscles to harden in that configuration. So, both from the blood that was separated into clear and red components and due to the rigor mortis, this person that was crucified was certainly dead. These were experts. You could tell whether the person being crucified was still alive or not from a block away. If he wasn't pushing up and down, he was dead. If he was pushing up and down, he was still alive. Very easy to tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Other interesting points are people have looked at his arms. I went back to the frontal image and his arms look very long and we believe that's because his shoulders were dislocated. Is that right, Bob?
Speaker 1:Yes, At least one shoulder is believed to be dislocated. It could be both. Again extremely painful.
Speaker 2:And rigor mortis. So we know the body stays in rigor mortis post-mortem for what? Upwards of 40, 45 hours and I think we believe Jesus was in the tomb roughly around 30 hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think 36, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 30 some hours, yeah, pretty extraordinary when the resurrection moment, the flashpoint, the turning point of all of human history took place. You can see his knees are still upright in the shroud, isn't that right, bob?
Speaker 1:That seems to be the case, just due to the lack, the lessening of the image on the dorsal side, at the knees. Well, yes, now one caution here. You know, we know how long rigor mortis lasts in a person who dies normally, but how long it lasts in a person being crucified is another matter. He would have been extremely dehydrated and there would have been all kinds of enzymes being pumped into his system during crucifixion from the extreme pain. But he did Well, but he did that. He did this all for us.
Speaker 2:Amen, that's the power of the crucified one. I was just reflecting on the story of the transfiguration and Peter wanted to take you know, build tents or tabernacle there. It's interesting he puts Moses and Elijah on the same platform as as Jesus. One for you, one for you know, moses and Elijah as well, jesus. And then the cloud descends, the presence of God. And then the affirmation of the Father comes out. This is my beloved Son, in whom I'm well pleased. And then he adds listen to him. And then they look up I love the story. And then they see Jesus only. And then, as they're heading down the mountain, probably Mount Hermon, they start having this debate about Elijah and what it means, that he's going to rise from the dead and that he's going to suffer. And then he gives this kind of explanation of you know, just as Elijah suffered, just as they did what they would to the new Elijah, john the Baptist, they realized now Matthew's gospel says John the Baptist, so they will do to the Son of man.
Speaker 2:The fascinating thing is in the story in Mark's gospel, in the very same chapter, they start to debate among themselves who's the greatest, who's the greatest, and it's like. Jesus is like. You have no idea. You have no idea because it's going to be the cruciform path that you all are going to follow. Right before the transfiguration, jesus starts talking pick up your cross and follow after me in Mark's gospel. So to go up is to go down in this upside down kingdom journey which Jesus gives us. Up is down and life always comes through death, and our life comes through the death of the crucified one, jesus, who laid down his life for the sins of the entire world. And here we have one piece of cloth that gives us the flashpoint of all of human history. So could you talk about and maybe you got it coming later in the slide deck but how we got this image? We believe that it was the flashpoint. Is now a good time to talk about that, or do you have it later on, bob?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, this is a great time here. The next slide covers the issue of what would have happened to the shroud. So, of course, the shroud would have contained a lot of Jesus' blood. It would have been splattered in many different locations across the shroud. And how important was Jesus' blood in the theology of salvation in the early church.
Speaker 1:Of course, extremely important. So you know, would they have reused this piece of cloth? No, they wouldn't have. Would they have just thrown it out? No, they wouldn't. Would they have burned it? No, they wouldn't do that. Would it have been left in the tomb to be found by the Roman or Jewish leaders? Well, no, they wouldn't do that. So they would have kept it. And due to the persecution and due to the Jewish sensitivities against images, for example, it would be difficult for them to use it with Jewish audience.
Speaker 1:But it seems like in Galatians 3.1, I think they were using this for apologetics and evangelistic work up in Galatia, because Paul says something to the effect I'm amazed that you're so quickly departing from the faith, even after you've seen the crucified Jesus. And what is that referring to? Well, if it's not referring to the Shroud of Turin, I'm not sure what it would be referring to. So they saw it with their very eyes. It was some kind of an object that they saw with their very eyes. So you know, what we're saying here is that the Shroud of Turin, based upon the evidence, the scientific evidence and the historical evidence that it started in Jerusalem, evidently taken down to Antioch, before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. You remember Jesus told them to do that to get out of Jerusalem when you see the armies approaching.
Speaker 1:So they did, and they took it down to probably Antioch, from where it went out on various different missions, out to Galatia, back up to Edessa, now called Urfa in Turkey, and then was taken up to Constantinople, I think, in an effort to stay ahead of the Muslim armies. They keep the relics out of control of the Muslims. So then, I'm putting the dashed or dotted lines here on my figure, because we don't know the route that it's taken, though we have evidence that it was there. So it may have gone from Constantinople either by water or across land up to Leray, france, where it was shown as the burial cloth of Jesus in 1355. So we have a continuous history for it from that point, in about 1355 or 1356, in Leray France, across France. It was in a fire in 1532 in Chambery, france, where the scorches were created, and then it finally came into Turin, italy, up in northwestern Italy, in 1578. And it's been in Turin, italy, ever since.
Speaker 1:So one item I'd like to read to you was in a diary of a man named Robert de Clary, and he was a member of the Fourth Crusade, and while he was in Constantinople in 1203, he wrote in his diary. There was another of the churches which they call my Lady, saint Mary of Blachernae. Blachernae was a certain district in Constantinople where there was the shroud in which our Lord had been wrapped, which every Friday raised itself upright so one could see the figure of our Lord on it. Very significant here. Constantinople the rulers in Constantinople and the people there loved little gimmicks by which they could do wondrous little things, such as pulling, you know, yanking a pulley underneath the box holding the Shroud of Turin to make it appear as though it's rising, you know. So that's probably what they had done there in the church. They'd have it up on the podium or up, you know, up in an elevated location.
Speaker 1:But what I wanted to tell you was that when they brought it into a tour in Italy then in 1578, they then they brought it into the Savoy Palace, which my wife and I toured in November of 2023. But then the cathedral was built on the one end of the palace and that's where it's uh has been located, and it is located today, and we saw the box in which it's located up in the uh front left-hand corner uh of this cathedral, and they have it on display just a few times a century. So in a hundred years they might show it, you know know, five or six times. So last time it was shown was in 2015. And my wife and I didn't go see it at that point, because you can actually see it better just by looking at a photograph of it, because the photograph enhances the contrast.
Speaker 2:Hey, how miraculous you talk about that fire. How miraculous that it didn't like destroy the shroud for one one and that those scourge marks are like at on the sides of Jesus's body, like it's kind of miraculous right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost like it's divinely protected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe so, maybe so. So let's keep going. The image formation Talk about the Shroud of Turin research project that started in 1978.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well, I think the next topic here is just testing. You know, at this point you might say well, if it's Jesus' burial cloth, let's test it scientifically. Well, that's been done. And this all arose because, in the early 70s, a man named John Jackson, a professor at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, took a photograph of the face from the shroud and put it under an electronic device which translates light and dark areas to elevations. And what they found? I'm trying to remember the name of that device, it's not coming to me right now, but I just described it. But what they found was that on this two-dimensional image of the face on the cloth, it contains three-dimensional information, and so that applies to the entire body, so that you can back out a statue from the three-dimensional information on this two-dimensional cloth. Now, no normal painting or photograph contains three-dimensional information, but that fact puts the Shroud of Turin into the class of satellite telemetry data Fascinating. So that amazing discovery was discussed amongst American scientists and it created the Shroud of Turin Research Project.
Speaker 1:And, for example, there was a group of about 40 individuals got together and planned out a long series of experiments and then they were invited to Turin, Italy, to perform their experiments, and I have a picture here of John Jackson looking at the Shroud with his high-powered microscope, and he's the leader of the Shroud of Turin Research Project. The acronym is STURP, S-T-U-R-P. So what was their goal? Their goal was to determine how the images were formed. They did other experiments as well, but that was their overall goal, Because that's the main question how were the images formed? So their conclusion here now they worked for five days, 24 hours a day, in three shifts. They had 26 scientists with the team there that were working on this and they had $2.5 million worth of equipment that had been donated to them for this project.
Speaker 1:So their conclusion here was that the image is not due to paint, dye or stain, because there's no pigment, no binder, no brush strokes, no clumping of fibers or threads, no stiffening of the cloth, no cracking of the image along fold lines, most or all of which would be present if it was paint, dye or stain, but it's not. So therefore, what is it? Well, next test that we're done. They looked at it with a high-powered microscope and they found no capillarity, which capillarity is soaking up of a liquid. So therefore, the images were not due to any liquid Fascinating, so maybe it's a scorch, it's about the color of a scorch, but could it be a scorch from a hot object? So they turned out the lights, brought up a black light to determine whether it was fluorescing. Now that's a term where a scorch will absorb the higher energy, light that we can't see and it will re-emit it at a lower energy which we can see. That's called fluorescence. But the image did not fluoresce, but the scorches from the fire did fluoresce.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 1:So the images are not due to a scorch and because there's three-dimensional information on it, it can't be a photograph. So what is it? So they basically said we have no idea what caused this image. Maybe someone in the future will be able to determine what it is.
Speaker 3:That's amazing.
Speaker 1:So I do. You know this is fascinating, isn't it? So I have a picture here of the three to one herringbone weave of the tip of the nose. Now, this is a 64 power that I'm showing. The tip of the nose would be presumably touching the nose, or very close to the nose if it was above the nose, be very close to the nose, but this is where the image should be strongest. But that's what you don't see. What you do see, all you see is a little bit of discoloration on the top two or three layers of fibers in the thread. Now again, the thread is composed of 100 or more fibers that are twisted together, so it's only the top two or three layers of fibers that are discolored. And then I have a slide that shows that this discoloration on the slide is just on the circumference, all the way around the outside of the fiber, but the inside of the fiber is not discolored. So how in the world could this be done? Yeah, for example, if I gave you a flax fiber now, this fiber would be one-fifth the diameter of a human hair and I assigned you the task of discoloring it with this extremely thin discoloration. It's less than 0.6 micrometers, it's about the thickness of a wavelength of light. It's about the distance of a wavelength of light, and the fiber itself is one-fifth the diameter of a human hair. How would you discolor it that way? I had to think a long time to figure out some way that this could have been discolored, and I did come up with a way that, based upon our known physics, this could be done. But I think, before we get into exactly how the images were formed, let's get into the dating, and we mentioned this before.
Speaker 1:But the dating was done by cutting of small samples from the corner of the shroud. If the shroud is held horizontally, this would be the upper left, the upper right, I'm not sure. If you're looking at it from below, it would be the upper left corner, but it would be off of his foot, located off of his foot over near the seam connecting the side piece with the main shroud, and this is right next to the corner, one of the corners of the shroud that had torn off at some unknown time in the past. The other corner, at the other end of the shroud, also had torn off, but this is where they would have held it during the exhibitions, and so that would have been a weak point because of the seam, and it evidently tore off. So they thought that's a good place to take the sample. So that's where they cut them.
Speaker 1:I show an image of them actually taking the cut in April 21st of 1988. And then the next slide shows how that cut was then displayed, and this is a diagram that I made up. You can see the back and cloth, the side strip and then the main cloth below, and there's a line, a horizontal line, and then to the right it shows a vertical line up to the seam. That shows the cut that was made. And so there were three different pieces that were initially cut to go to Arizona, switzerland and Oxford, england, three different dating laboratories, and when they found that the sample that was sent to Arizona was a little bit smaller than the other two, they cut another piece to go to Oxford, england. So Oxford actually received two pieces, and the second piece, that sent to Oxford, may have been cut from the other end. I think it probably was, but so I think I'm showing this in the wrong location. I think it should be on the other end of that other half of the piece.
Speaker 1:But those three samples then were sent to the three different laboratories and then each laboratory took their sample and cut them into smaller pieces, so that we ended up with 12 different subsamples being dated at the laboratory in Oxford, zurich and Tucson. Now I list these values in the sequence from the left side of the diagram, the small edge of the cloth, and that becomes important Oxford, zurich and Tucson. So three samples from Oxford, five from Zurich and four from Tucson were dated. Now I calculate the dates. On this. I do the statistical analysis.
Speaker 1:There's questions about the published values, but I did the analysis using the normal or Gaussian distribution assumption, as is very commonly done, so that I then weighted the uncertainties, I came up with dates for each laboratory and then I came up with an overall date of 1277.8, plus or minus 12.6, whereas they came up with an uncertainty of 31,. Quite a difference becomes very significant, so that we have two options. We have two options. One option is that and this would be on the next slide there's two options and if the Shroud dates to 1260 to 1390 AD, then it is not Jesus' burial cloth, of course, because Jesus died in either 30 or 33 AD, now the day that he died. We actually do know that because the day of his death was related to Passover, which is related to the phases of the moon. So we can know the day, though there's some uncertainty as to the Passover, which is related to the phases of the moon. So we can know the day, though there's some uncertainty as to the year, so it's probably either 30 or 33. I think 33 is the preferred year by the scholars for his death. He certainly did not die during 1260 to 1390 AD. The second option is that if the shroud is Jesus' burial cloth, then the images could not have been made. The images could have been made in his resurrection, but why did the shroud carbon date to 1260 to 1390? So then, in the first option, if it dates to 1260 to 1390, you have to explain how the images were made in 1260 to 1390 AD. No one's been able to do that. But if it dates to the time of Jesus, then how do you explain the carbon dating?
Speaker 1:Well, with my background in nuclear engineering 38 years in the nuclear industry it's almost like I've been specially prepared to take on this task. So what I've shown here, I show my diagram again, only putting in the years that they dated, and I point at the center of each of those samples. So if we plot those dates at the center of each of those samples and plot it as a function of the distance from the left side of that diagram, the small edge of the cloth, then what we get is the next picture, which is a plot. The red points are the values, the vertical bar is the one sigma uncertainty. And what you see here is that, in order to get a line through the three points of the data, I did a best fit calculation, which is a standard engineering procedure to find the line that is the best fit through those values.
Speaker 1:And so I came up with y equals 35.87x plus 1030.67. Well, the significant thing is the coefficient in front of the x 35.87. Let's round it off to 36. So what that means is that the slope of this line is about 36 years per centimeter, which is equal to about 91 years per inch. So if you move the sample point up 10 inches, you would increase the carbon date by 910 years, so that it would date to the future, which is interesting. How can a piece of would date to the future, which is interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How can a piece of cloth date to the future? And so what they did in their analysis? They ignored this slope and they said let's just take an average. So they, in my diagram I show the black dash line is a horizontal line at 1261, but it only shows it going through one point rather than three. You need a sloped line to go through all three data points. Okay, so I think it's important to cover a quote here related to this that Harry Gove stated and this is a very interesting quote, and he was the main promoter of the carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin and he said it is a well-known fact that scientists can produce whatever results they want. If you believe that passionately in something, you can steer the results. My God, we've all been guilty of that. Just amazing. I've heard it sometimes said. I think it's true. It might be just a joke, but I think it's true. If you take a sample in for carbon dating, you know what their first question is what? How old is this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's super ironic. Hey, let's pause right there, bob. Uh, we got a statistician with us in, dr trey cox. Uh, any kind of take on on this trajectory? I think it's super fascinating I'm not a statistician, but that you could get to the point where you date the cloth into the future. Uh, dr cox, anything to add here? Well, I.
Speaker 3:I was wanting to maybe follow up on his, his, uh points about the image formation, formation not being a painting, if I could instead. Yeah, that's fine. Um, just need to get a little bit of background on on some mathematical ideas that support this. Um, of course, this is a 2d image, as bob said, and but it has 3D information embedded in it. So, as far as what dimensions mean, dimensions are directions. So when we talk about three dimensions, we're talking about length, width, height.
Speaker 3:But current theory in physics and mathematics is there's most likely higher dimensions than length, width and height. And when I say higher dimensions, I don't mean, like most of us here, the fourth dimension is time. Well, that's a temporal dimension, time. The physics and even neuroscience right now is saying that they believe in their theories that there's higher spatial dimensions. So in neuroscience, current neuroscience, trying to understand and wrap their mind around what consciousness really is Exactly right, there's up to 11 spatial dimensions in that model. And in modern physics currently in string theory, quantum mechanics which, by the way, is the background and support of mathematics, of artificial intelligence, which is exploding right now. In that theory, there's up to 26 spatial dimensions, which is exploding right now. In that theory there's up to 26 spatial dimensions.
Speaker 3:So, just accepting current theory and science, thinking about what a transition from a third dimension to a higher dimension?
Speaker 3:I did some research on that prior to our talk and I found out that current theory says that if something goes from a lower dimension to a higher dimension, there is A a very high burst of energy and light. B there's something called the holographic principle, which means that the object that's leaving one dimension and going to another leaves behind a lower dimensional projection, which kind of sounds like a Shroud of Turin picture, doesn't it? Yeah? And finally, the carbon dating issue that Bob just brought up. Carbon dating assumes there's a constant rate of change, so things don't change over time. So you can date things based on how things change consistently. Well, when you talk about going from a lower dimension to a higher dimension, photons which are what light is made out of that shifts their quantum states and possibly converts them into unknown particles that we don't even know exist. So think about what that would do to a linen fabric or material. I think the carbon dating assumption of a constant change is a big error, big mistake.
Speaker 1:Yes, carbon dating is done by measuring in a sample from the material. It's done by measuring the carbon-14 to carbon-12 ratio because carbon-12 does not decay, so it's static, but carbon-14 does decay, with a half-life of 5,830 years, I believe, and so that that ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12 decreases with time. So that when they measure the carbon-14 to carbon-12 ratio then they make that assumption and use equations to then back out a date. But that date that's calculated from the ratio is only accurate if the assumption is correct. So what I'm saying is that the assumption is not correct, that there was something else that was changing the carbon-14 to carbon-12 ratio in the samples and that was neutron absorption, creating new carbon-14 in those samples, which would then have the effect of giving a younger date. And that's exactly what we see and it would explain, as I'll describe soon. It also explains why these dates did not agree with each other statistically. We'll get to that.
Speaker 2:We will. Are we going to get to vertically collimated radiation burst Bob?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'll be the.
Speaker 2:That's the final. All right, I'm not giving it away. Here we go. We're going to keep rolling. So we got the quote. Statistical analysis disproves Get into that. Do you need anything more to say here, bob?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, okay, we finished with Harry Gove. Just amazing how you have to be careful with science to make sure that science isn't being done to just satisfy presuppositions, which is often the case. It's being done because they know what the answer is, based upon their presuppositions, and I find that that is the case. They presume that they know what the date on the Shroud of Turin is. It has to be consistent with when it was dated, when it was exhibited in Leray, France, in 1356 to 1355. And so they make that assumption. Therefore, they direct their statistical analysis to achieve that goal. It's goal-oriented, so that fits into Harry Gove's quote. So it's interesting that the British Museum, as I understand it, did not fully release all of the data on the carbon dating one of the most important measurements ever done and they wouldn't release the full data. They would only do so in 2017, under threats of legal action. They finally released it. Then it allowed shroud researchers to do statistical analysis on the data, and they published four different papers in peer-reviewed journals, all of which concluded that the values they would call them heterogeneous, that is, that they were not homogeneous. Now what that means? Heterogeneous means that the dates on the 12 subsamples the carbon dates on the 12 subsamples were not consistent with each other within their uncertainty. They were heterogeneous instead of homogeneous. Now what that means is that something strange was going on. They should be consistent with each other within their statistical uncertainties, but they weren't. So what is it that was going on?
Speaker 1:Let me go through the next slide. Here there's many different contradictions to the carbon date of 1260 to 1390. Gold microparticles have been detected on the Shroud of Turin, which dates it prior to probably 1204. The hand-spun thread on the Shroud dates it probably prior to 1200. Colored line drawing called the Hungarian Prey Codex of the Shroud. It's dated from 1192 to 1195. There's coins that were minted and circulated as money with the image from the face starting in about 692 AD.
Speaker 1:The first painting based upon the Shroud of Turin was in 570 AD. So all these values contradict the carbon date 570 AD. So all these values contradict the carbon date. The Paintedon's, another I'm sorry, the Sudarium of Oviedo dates to 570 AD. That's the face cloth that's now in Oviedo, Spain, and we believe it is the face cloth of Jesus mentioned in John 20, verse 7, based upon historical documentation that arrived with it in Spain. And then paintings and artworks starting about 550 AD, and then the size of the shroud is 8 by 2 cubits, which is the ancient measurement, so this is very ancient. Then number 8 was the accurate depiction of the crucifixion indicates that the image was prior to 400 AD, because crucifixion was outlawed in the early 300s. And then we have the tradition that it was taken up to Edessa, Turkey, in about 200 AD. Then we have the ancient stitch that I mentioned to you. That dates it to the first century, and radiation damage to the fibers is similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date before 70 AD.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of different date indicators that contradict the carbon dating, but the most important one is that we have recent inventions of new dating techniques for dating fabric, specifically to date the Shroud of Turin, and so we have four different methods that were applied. One was applied in two different locations, but these four methods agree with the death of Jesus in the first century and they contradict the radiocarbon dating. Now, these methods are based on either mechanical properties, such as tensile strength and how tensile strength decays or decreases with aging, or a spectrographic analysis, that is, how linen changes in reflection of light with age. The last date that has created such a popularity of the Shroud in recent months. I would say would be the Waxus method, W-A-X-S, which is Wax W. I'm trying to think what the W stands for. Anyway, this is the x-ray analysis of the Shroud of Turin maybe weighted x-ray analysis of the Shroud of Turin, and that dates it very close to the time of Jesus. The uncertainty the time of Jesus is within the uncertainty of three out of those five measurements, so that this is good evidence that the Shroud of Turin actually dates to the first century.
Speaker 1:But then the question is well then, how could the carbon dating be so wrong? And that's why I think my work then becomes important. So my neutron absorption hypothesis is stated this way, and I should mention that my write-up on this is in my paper 33 in my website, which is shroudresearchnet. Paper 33 writes up my carbon dating hypothesis. 34 documents my image formation hypothesis. So neutron absorption hypothesis is that neutrons were included in the burst of radiation that caused the images, and we'll get to that in a minute. A small fraction of these neutrons were absorbed in nitrogen-14 in the cloth to produce new carbon-14 atoms. When the nitrogen-14 absorbs a neutron it kicks out a proton immediately and then the nucleus of the atom changes to carbon-14. And this caused the shroud to be carbon-dated younger than its true age. So I then, based on this neutron absorption hypothesis, I took one of my nuclear analysis computer codes that I'd been running for years in the nuclear industry and this is called MCNP.
Speaker 1:It's an acronym for Monte Carlo N particle, where the N stands for neutrons, so it can calculate distributions of neutrons and many other particles for that matter. But what I end up with here and I hope people can see this slide because this is important this is the results of my nuclear analysis computer calculations. And on the y-axis it shows the carbon date. On the x-axis it shows the distance along the back, the center line of the body, on the dorsal or back image, along the backbone you might say. And so the second point from the left is the carbon dating value, because I had to normalize all the results from my calculation to something. The only thing I could normalize it to was the dates that were actually produced by the three laboratories. So I normalized the second point from the left to their average value of 1260. Point from the left to their average value of 1260.
Speaker 1:But the two items of importance here, one is that that second point, from the left, you can see, has a certain slope to it. That's important. The other important point is that if you could get a sample from underneath the center of the body mass on the dorsal image, I predict that it would carbon date to 8,500 AD, based upon neutron absorption at that point. So this hypothesis is very testable. So a sample by the right elbow would carbon date to 4,500 AD. By the left elbow it would carbon date to 3,500 AD. It's different because by the right elbow would be the limestone wall on that side. So then, this slope that I pointed out to you is just the slope that I previously showed to you that results from the three laboratory values, so that the calculated MCNP computer calculation based upon neutrons being homogeneously or uniformly emitted in the body produces the same slope to the data as obtained by the three laboratories. Now that's amazing. It indicates I'm doing something right.
Speaker 1:Okay, the other interesting item here is that the Sudarium of Oviedo, the face cloth of Jesus, was carbon, dated to 700 AD, and at that point it was said that, well, this can't possibly be authentic, but I predicted that that face cloth in the tomb would be dropped on the right bench, because most people are right-handed and it would be dropped just next to where the person was doing the burial was standing at the front of the pit or stand-up area, so about 15 to 18 inches in front of the back bench. So it'd be on the right bench, 15 to 18 inches in front of the back bench. That was my prediction when I did the calculation. The carbon date for that location was 700 AD, just what the laboratories determined. To me this is an amazing confirmation. This concept has also been confirmed by testing of my results against fluorescence on pictures that were taken in 1978. And there's a very interesting correlation between the two.
Speaker 1:So let's go on to the next, so that there are actually four different dates, four different types of evidences from carbon dating. We have the mean value of 1260 to 1390. Number two we have the slope of about 36 years per inch, which is 91 years. 36 years per centimeter, which is 91 years per inch. The third is just the distribution and range of carbon dates for the 12 subsamples, and I haven't completed that yet.
Speaker 1:I'm now starting and trying to do that. It's more difficult because these subsamples are so small. And then the fourth is the date for the face cloth of Jesus, known as the Sudarium of Oviedo. So so far my calculations have proven to be correct for number one, the average, number two, the slope, and number four, the date for the face cloth, but not for number three yet, and that's what I'm working on now, to try and determine whether my methodology is consistent with that. If I can do that, I think we'll have good evidence that what they were actually obtaining in their carbon dating. They were actually obtaining evidence for the neutron distribution in the tomb rather than for the true date, rather than from the true date of the shroud, which is very interesting.
Speaker 1:So, let's go into how the images were formed now.
Speaker 2:So to summarize, bob, the carbon dating is wrong. That's what the layman kind of thing, Is that fair?
Speaker 1:Yes, what I'm saying here is the equipment worked correctly in obtaining the correct ratio of the carbon-14 to carbon-12 ratio, but those ratios had been altered by absorption of neutrons in the cloth and with my nuclear background, that was obvious to me when I immediately read the technical paper on this issue.
Speaker 2:Love, it All right, let's get to options for image formation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, okay. Well, we could look at some preliminary items here so that we can say that the images were not formed by an artist or forger, based upon the STIRP analysis in 1978, because the images are not due to pigment, scorch, liquid or photography. All attempts to duplicate the images have failed. The very best effort to reproduce the image of the face was actually done by radiation controlled by information, which is interesting. Okay now, the images were also not by contact between the body and the cloth, because the image on the.
Speaker 1:There is an image on the cloth where the cloth would not have been in contact with the body. For example, if the cloth was in contact with the nose, it would not have been in contact as you go down the nostrils of the nose. Yet we have images of that nostril as you could move down the nose on either side. So it's not due to contact between the body and the nose, yet we have images of that nostril as you move down the nose on either side. So it's not due to contact between the body and the cloth. It's also not due to diffusion of molecules. I hear this many times. Diffusion is where a molecule just randomly scatters off of the air, molecules in random directions. But as soon as you assume random motion of molecules going from the body to the cloth, you're going to end up with no information left because in each scattering event you lose information. And if the scattering events are random, as it is with diffusion of molecules, you'll lose all information in one scattering event, so that you'll have no information to transfer from the body to the cloth and transfer of the information that defines the appearance of the crucified man has to be transferred from the body to the cloth in order to control which fibers are discolored on the cloth to form the images.
Speaker 1:Information is the key property to form the images on the cloth, so that has to be a part of the image formation hypothesis. Also, it's unlikely to form the images by any natural process. Think of this there's been billions of people that have lived and died in the history of the earth. Yes, this is the only example of an image on a piece of cloth being caused by a person, either alive or dead. You know, I've gone through my closet, I've gone through my dresser and at no time has my body left an image of my body on the inside of anything that I've been in, any fabric I've been in contact with and you can do the same experiment. It's safe enough for you to do at home, okay.
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 2:So what is required to form the images on the shroud? This is amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's three different things that are absolute requirements.
Speaker 1:You have to have a mechanism to discolor the fibers, you have to have energy to drive the discoloration mechanism and you have to have information to control the discoloration mechanism.
Speaker 1:That's what I mentioned, that is, to discolor only the right fibers with the right length of the discoloration to form the images. Now I'm saying that this is caused by radiation, so that the mechanism is related to radiation and we'll get into that in more detail. The energy is in the radiation itself and the information is being carried by the radiation, so that the color, shades and position is being carried by the radiation itself, just like when you open your eyes and you look at the scene around you. How do you see that? It's because reflected photons reflecting off of everything that you're looking at is carrying information to your eyes the colors, shades and locations of each color and shade to your eyes which is then when it hits the rods and cones at the back of your eye. It's changed into electrical information carried by the electrons going up your optic nerve to your brain, and your brain has learned to interpret those electrical signals in terms of colors, shades and positions, so that you can see the scene around you Almost like everything has been designed.
Speaker 2:It's almost as if that's true.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:All right. So how do we recognize this is the shroud as a crucified man?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's because the information that defines the form of a crucified man has been encoded into the pattern of discolored fibers on the cloth. When you pick up a photograph of your neighbor, your spouse or whatever, and you look at it and you say, well, that's so-and-so, how is it that you can identify him? Well, it's because the information that defines the appearance of that person has been encoded into the pixel. Is the fiber that's discolored, but it's still information that has been encoded onto the linen cloth that's located in Turin, italy, dr Cox, I'm just wondering if I was muted.
Speaker 3:No, I'm good. No, this is what I was talking about earlier the imprint on the image. If you take the current physics mathematics that's currently believed, that could be the reason that this has been left behind. It's a picture of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then we can see it, because photons of light are reflected off of the shroud and carry that information to our eyes, so that information that's embedded on the cloth is carried to our eyes on reflected photons. So that information that's embedded on the cloth is carried to our eyes on reflected photons, so that we can see it and I'm thinking that could be the result of going from a three-dimensional world to higher dimensions, yeah, well, the results of what happens yeah, it's just, it's just amazing, isn't it, uh?
Speaker 1:but one thing, one thing to point out here on the face, you can see the eyes, you can see the long nose, you can see the mustache. You can see the points of brightness on the mustache, where I think this is because certain whiskers would be standing upright on the mustache, like little lightning rods. Lightning rod will attract the lightning to the tip of the lightning rod and that's what happened on the mustache. Like little lightning rods, lightning rod will attract the lightning to the tip of the lightning rod and that's what happened on the mustache. So the image formation is related to an electrostatic event as well. You see the mustache and the beard, but between the two you can see the teeth. What you see is vertical lines which have been identified as teeth.
Speaker 1:Many people are able to see this. There's been kind of a movement to poo-poo this whole idea, but I think that the visibility of these, that they really are in the image, because there's nowhere else on the cloth where you see vertical lines like this except where the teeth ought to be, so that what we have here is that we have radiation being emitted deeper in the body than coming through the teeth, so that leaving this distinction between the bright and dark lines on the teeth so that it's something coming from within the body and I'm claiming that it's coming actually from wherever hydrogen is located, as we'll get to that.
Speaker 3:I think it's pretty humorous to think that people assume that this could have been a painting in the Middle Ages. Yeah, there's no way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they didn't know what to do with it.
Speaker 2:Hey, while we're on this picture, do we know the color of Jesus' hair and or mustache?
Speaker 1:Well, no, we actually don't have color on the shroud. Everything that we see here is a straw yellow, or sometimes called a sepia color. It's all the same. This is the color of a scorch, of a scorch, and now, but we've already disproven that it can't be a scorch from a hot object, because that would that would discolor into the center of the fibers as well. So this is this is a scorch from a different mechanism.
Speaker 3:Okay that's what I was going to say. It could be a scorch from uh burst of energy and light well, let's share it where it is, the vcrb hypothesis here we go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a yeah, vcrb, that's an acronym for vertically collimated radiation burst hypothesis for image formation. Now this this is how I state it an extremely brief, intense burst of vertically collimated. Vertically colluming means that it's it's going up and down, it's it's not things being emitted, uh, you know, in every different direction, it's just vertically up and down. It's not things being emitted in every different direction, it's just vertically up and vertically down, oscillating between the two. But an extremely brief, intense burst of vertically collimated radiation, like a billion vertically oriented lasers going off simultaneously from within the body be going off simultaneously from within the body.
Speaker 1:Intense burst of vertically collimated radiation was emitted in the body that rapidly oscillated between vertically up and vertically down directions, so that the front and dorsal images were made at the same time.
Speaker 1:That's why they're so similar in characteristics. They were made by the same time, even though the dorsal image have the weight of the body on it, whereas the top cloth only had the weight of the cloth on it. Yet the nature, the characteristics of the images are so identical because they were both formed by radiation from the body. So this consists of this radiation, I think consists of charged particles, probably protons, that caused an oscillating corona discharge. That's like a little lightning bolt static discharge from the top fibers facing the body. That caused a high-frequency alternating current. We're going to an electric current here in the fibers that deposited heat in the thin outer layer of the fibers to discolor it. So in some way you have to be able to heat this very thin region going all the way around the fiber, without that high temperature being reached on the inside of the fiber. And this is the only mechanism that I could think of, and I learned this in my first year of physics at University of Michigan. This is called the….
Speaker 2:I have no idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm trying to remember here. It's the surface effect, something like the surface effect of an alternating current, and you can look that up on Wikipedia under something like that. So what happens is that an alternating current produces oscillating electric and magnetic fields, which pushes the electrons that are flowing in the wire out to the outer radius of that wire, where they would heat that very region. That's needed to achieve a high temperature to scorch it. And I think that's what happened. We have to get back to an alternating electric current in the fibers in the cloth.
Speaker 2:So are you giving a scientific explanation for the bodily resurrection of Jesus Bob?
Speaker 1:Okay, what I'm doing here is I'm just tracking back scientifically. I'm applying science here, only science, and what I end up with is that you have to assume that there was an oscillating electric field which caused the nuclei in the body to oscillate in a manner that provided enough energy for deuterium atoms to split, releasing protons to form the image, and neutrons to shift the carbon date forward. But when you say that you are outside, you are beyond or outside of our current understanding of the laws of physics. So what is it that can explain that Well, scientifically? You throw up your hands and say I have no explanation for that scientifically. But when I take off my science hat, put on my Bible believers hat, and I say, well, isn't that interesting.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what I would expect when we're talking about the disappearance of Jesus from our perception of reality. I would expect that to take place by a transition into an alternate dimension. Look at my paper two on the research page of my website, shroudresearchnet. It goes into that issue Exactly. How did the body disappear? Scientifically, the best option is that his body made a transition into an alternate dimensionality, from which then he could return in his post-resurrection appearances, but by an act of his will because he was now in a spiritual body, so that his body was under the control of the spirit rather than under the control of physics. He was not in a physical body, he was in a spiritual body. Referring to what was controlling the body.
Speaker 2:But they. So now we get to the Bible. They touched him. So it was. When you say spiritual, we don't mean non-physical, but they touched him and saw Okay, so that's what some people we're not we're not preaching Gnosticism here by any stretch that the body's bad, it's just it's gone into a different dimension and we see that obviously as he moves freely in the physical world through walls, through doors etc. From one place to another place. And this is where it's just mind-blowing, this third to fourth dimension type stuff. Dr Cox, anything more to add there? And then, bob, we'll give you that.
Speaker 3:As we're coming down the homestretch. I only got five more minutes, but this is fascinating. Uh, dr Cox, that's totally right. I mean what? We're not talking? A spiritual body, meaning just euphemistic, and not physical. It's physical in terms of you could touch it and feel it, but it's not. As Bob said, it's not bound by the physical world anymore, because it's it's accessing, yes, powers that he set aside as he became man to live amongst us. But he took that back on again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in the change from physical body to spiritual body, the noun hasn't changed, it's still body.
Speaker 1:It still has mass it still has inertia you can touch it, you can eat fish. It's still a body, but there's a basic change from physical to spiritual, in the sense of what, of the controlling factors over that body? That's what I would say. But it's still a body and that that nature of the spiritual body is going to be the same nature that we will have in the rapture and our resurrection. Our bodies will be like his bodies.
Speaker 2:Yep, amen, amen. So who is this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So the question is who is this? There's two criteria. One is that this individual was crucified, exactly like Jesus was crucified. The second criteria is that an extremely brief, intense burst of radiation from his body produced the front and back images of his body on the cloth, as well as shifted the carbon date forward. So there's only one person in all of history can satisfy these two criteria. It can only be satisfied by Jesus in his resurrection. This was Jesus. Amen. That's what I think.
Speaker 2:Christ is risen. He is risen indeed. Alleluia, Bob. Yeah, keep going. This is is great. What else are you going?
Speaker 1:to say well, I was going to say that. So what? What this does the? You know there's three different categories of evidence that you have in court. There's context. So the context information for the shroud, for the resurrection of jesus. We have old testament prophecies and we have jesus own predictions of his prophecy that were fulfilled. Then there's eyewitness testimony Two classes there. We have the empty tomb testimony of the empty tomb and testimony of Jesus' post-resurrection appearances. But we've never had scientific evidence for radiation causing the image and causing the shifting of the carbon date.
Speaker 2:Hey Bob, this has been amazing. I didn't need it, like I said, I mean the context and the eyewitness testimony is enough. But for some people, right and I'm speaking to all the people who listened to this and understood everything you said and I'm not one of those people, because I'm not necessarily a scientist, in the same way I'm more of a historian, right, so the context that I witnessed kind of speak to me. But for those that have been scientifically wired, you have made a fantastic case for the bodily resurrection of Jesus, dr Cox. Anything more to say there?
Speaker 3:No, I love everything you said. We had him on campus. Very powerful being able to see the full-length shroud in our sanctuary. And thank you for your time, bob. I love it and his paper he suggested, tim. I'm going to send it to you because it's excellent.
Speaker 1:Yes, so the bottom line is we live in a universe where resurrection is possible, because it has happened and we're going to look forward to our resurrection.
Speaker 2:Amen, that's it. Christ has been raised, the first fruits of those who are found in faith in anticipation of our bodily resurrection at the last day, brand new, imperishable, eternal, powerful, immortal bodies. First Corinthians, chapter 15. When the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, like a bride or adorned for her husband, and the dwelling place of God will be with men, we will see him, we will be known and we will know once again, with no possibility of the curse, the rebellion, the fall ever being a part of our story again. What has been done will be undone. When the new heaven and the new earth descend, our dwelling place, perfection with God's self, others and the rest of creation will be ours, and all we will know is the man of light. It's interesting in scripture how consistent light gets connected with life. We can't live apart from light and Jesus is the light of the world and we're connected by faith to the light and to bring the light. And this is an opportunity. Right now we are called to witness to the light, and the Shroud of Turin is a wonderful, wonderful gift from God. Now, through science, there's only one who has walked this path, this cruciform and resurrected path, and his name is Jesus. He is the Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who is soon to return. Bob, you are a gift, dr Cox, you are a gift.
Speaker 2:This is the Tim Allman podcast. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is. You take this in and this is going to be released. We're recording this well before Holy Week, but we're going to be releasing this during Holy Week and I pray. This meditation, this scientific explanation, gives you great hope as you follow Jesus from Palm Sunday to the upper room, to the cross and to the empty tomb. Jesus is risen, indeed, Hallelujah. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Thanks so much, bob, thanks, dr Cox.