The Tim Ahlman Podcast
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The Tim Ahlman Podcast
Showing Up is Everything: Research Reveals What Youth Really Need
What if developing youth leaders wasn't about having the coolest, most relatable youth pastor? What if the most effective behaviors for nurturing young servant leaders were actually accessible to anyone willing to show up consistently?
Jonathan Kopecky and Jackie Druckhammer share findings from their Youth Leadership Initiative research project, revealing vital behaviors that help develop young leaders in the church. Their data shows that anyone can effectively mentor youth regardless of age or "coolness factor" when they focus on showing up consistently and seeing the whole person.
Visit nowlcms.org/YLI to download the full report and access the tools they've developed for implementing these findings in your ministry.
• Looking for "positive deviants" to identify behaviors that disproportionately affect youth leadership development
• Discovering the importance of "I see you" before "I see in you" - valuing the person before their gifts
• The vital behavior of "showing up" - youth remember who was present more than what was said
• Creating a posture of hearing and listening as a safe space for youth
• The "power of yes" - changing from "why not" to "how can we make this happen"
• Finding something for every youth to do by identifying doors to open
• Moving youth "further up and further in" through progressive involvement
• Creating tools like the "no name journal" to help adults track and nurture youth development
• Building a ministry culture that sees youth as current leaders, not just future ones
It's not that every youth has to do everything or any particular thing. It's that there is something to do for every youth, something that they can be invited in. So I just think there's so much freedom in that because, regardless of you know urban or rural size of your church, your worship practice, you know our synods, on a spectrum with our regions, you regions, our width, our breadth, all of those things, and the good news in this is that it can be applied anywhere, because it's about opening a door. The door doesn't matter so much the characteristics of the door, but if you can train yourself to have eyes, to see the God-given gifts in your youth and to look for doors to open, to invite them further up and further in, to say yes to the things that are on their hearts and bring them into your ministry, that is where this survey showed the success.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a beautiful day to be alive. Pray, the joy of Jesus is your strength, as today I get to hang out with two servant leaders in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod who have poured their life into the next generation. If there's one thing I could charge for you as a pastor, as a leader, as a lay leader, care for love, challenge, pray for those who are being raised right now in these, as many people say, these unprecedented times. So much societal change and we have to cast vision for our young people being present-day leaders and the future-day leaders within the church for the advancement of the kingdom of God. Let me introduce you to my guests. Jonathan and Jackie are DCEs serving congregations in the Northwest District of the kingdom of God. Let me introduce you to my guests. Jonathan and Jackie are DCEs serving congregations in the Northwest District of the LCMS. So it's Jackie Druckhammer and Jonathan Capecchi. Since becoming a Christian at 17 years old, jonathan has had a heart for people who don't know Jesus. That is very, very true. In addition to serving as a youth minister at Hope in Seattle, he has also coordinated the launch of the Youth Leadership Initiative Survey, which is what we're going to be talking about today inviting church leaders in the Northwest District and beyond to reflect on the formative experiences that help draw young people into leadership. Jonathan has most recently been accepted into the CMC program. He's right at the very front of that.
Speaker 2:The Cross-Cultural Ministry. Church Formation I always forget what it stands for. I taught in it for like eight years, or whatever. But cross-cultural work. Church formation I always forget what it stands for. I taught in it for like eight years, or whatever. But cross-cultural work. Praise be to God. He's serving now as a vicar. Jackie serves part-time as a children's minister at her home congregation in St John in Vancouver, washington. What a beautiful part of the world. Both of your locations are extraordinary, god said. I'm going to put a little bit more beauty in this area of my creation. Where she was first introduced to DCE ministry Director of Christian Education Ministry. Over the years, jackie and Jonathan have volunteered in the Northwest District programs and events to help connect, equip and encourage our leaders. They are excited to be a part of this project we're going to talk about today, which focuses on encouraging youth to use their God given gifts as leaders in his, in his, kingdom. How are you guys doing today? Jackie, you loving life, sister.
Speaker 1:Amen, yeah, what's giving you?
Speaker 2:the most joy right now. Let's start out with that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I have a three, almost four year old and he's like on the cusp of reading, but he has a good memory. So we're trying to figure out what he's just remembering versus what he's figuring out on his own, and it's just a joy to see the world kind of being discovered again a new through the eyes of a toddler.
Speaker 2:So I mean that three year old year in child development. My daughter is in in early childhood. She's taking classes, want to be an early childhood, you know, teacher, maybe director down the line. But she's like Dad, you know, like two to three years old is when they start to like learn how to share and like be a human that cares about other humans and stuff. So he, he's right in there and it sounds like he's developing well.
Speaker 1:Yes, Before I left to come do this, he handed me a little Jesus tag to remind me that you know Jesus is with me while I go podcast. So, yes, the learning is amazing. I love it.
Speaker 2:Future leader in the church. So good, Our current leader point us. It's cool. Through the eyes of little kids they point us to what is most important and that is the presence of Jesus. Welcome, little children. Jonathan. What's given you the most joy, brother? Good to hang out with you, man.
Speaker 3:Oh man, yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you so much for having us. I think, man, like what is the most joy right now? I think just the Lord like pushing me in ways that I just did not know that it could be possible, in good and bad and challenging, and in just fun. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I could spend a long time.
Speaker 3:I can't really like narrow one thing down because I've had so much challenge and so much like joy right now, especially like last 10 weeks, but it's been. It's been phenomenal and I can hang out with you. So this is this has been my joy right now, for the last week is like preparing for this. I love it.
Speaker 2:We're going to have a great time. Jonathan's wife, amy, and I go back to. I knew Amy when we were gosh 10, well, 13, 14, 15, 16, writing that and then college was a part of praise at Concordia University in Nebraska. I think it's still going on on Wednesday nights. She's an amazing singer-songwriter with you, as well as an author copywriter. If you don't know Amy Kopecky, she was a part of and I just found this out of the story. This is the chronological, continuous story of all 66 books put into one book, one readable book which you should read the Bible. But the story is a pretty great representation of the entire narrative arc of scripture and I didn't even know that Amy was a part of that some 13, 14 years ago. She's kind of a big deal, jonathan. You married up, bro. I really did, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah so good, oh man, yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:Tell me what you're learning in CMC. What's hot right now?
Speaker 3:Man, I mean, I think just the my hermeneutics class is just mind blowing right now. It's just like being able to open up the Bible and look at word studies from the Old Testament to the New Testament is is something that has just been really, really amazing. And yeah, shout out to Professor Eshelbach because he's phenomenal, but yeah, it's. Yeah, I mean it's just it's opening up a new world and I'm really stepping into it and trying to follow Jesus in it.
Speaker 2:For sure, isn, I'm really stepping into it and trying to follow Jesus in it. For sure Isn't it cool Like you've been in the church leadership for a long time, right yeah, since I was six. Yeah, there's always more to learn. I did a podcast with Jim Marriott, a classmate of mine from Concordia, nebraska, and he told me something about the Kyrie. Lord, have mercy on us. Lord, have mercy on us. It was a cry for the Jews, for God's mercy, not just for them but for the nations. So there was like a missional component to even the Kyrie that we sing in our liturgical traditional services. I mean, how bonkers is that? So all that to say, there's gold in them, their heels, and that gold does not run out, jonathan.
Speaker 3:It doesn't, yeah, it's's, it's, yeah, it's insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, always more. So let's get into it. Tell us about the servant leadership survey you conducted in 2022. What was the aim and focus? We'll start with you, though, jonathan, and then Jackie, you can fill in the gaps.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the focus, I mean it was, I mean, crucial influence is a huge shout out. So I mean we, we read that book, we were. We found out that like there could be a vital behavior for something that maybe that could potentially create leaders, and and maybe there's a vital behavior that we're missing. Jackie can speak like volumes to like the examples in the book about you know just ways in which they actually created vital, vital behaviors, but we really wanted to take that and try to say if there was like we would just ask people and what was the way that you guys like were influenced by leaders?
Speaker 3:Like you know, you have a strong like we started with leaders, like adult leaders in DCEs, et cetera, and like what was like what was impactful for you, and just general idea and questions of maybe that could be it, and then we formalized those into a survey. We got 64, I think, responses, and then we pushed forward and we had a small group that did it, and then we launched it, and then we were like, okay, how are we going to do this? And we compiled it all and, yeah, that's kind of our heart. Behind it, though, is that we wanted to find if there was possible to find something that could absolutely transform or huge pivot is basically what a vital behavior is is to completely pivot that influence.
Speaker 2:That's so good, Jackie. Go deeper in terms of vital behaviors. What does that mean? That's actually a newer term for me as well. I've talked about behaviors. I've done the Harrison Behavioral Assessment, but honing in on vital behaviors, that's a combination of words I don't normally hear very often. Would you talk about that, Jackie?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we love the Harrison Assessment because of all of the profiles out there that can help you understand you better. We talk about that one as being coachable. It's behavior-based, it's not innate what you were born with, stuff you're stuck with can't change. It's all coachable. You can improve on things, you can lean into your strengths, all of that. And so there's been a ton of research across our synod and Christianity even just sociology in general about youth and faith and retention and things like that. But a lot of it is characteristic based or things like that. Even the first survey that we were building off of found tags under like attitudes, skills, abilities, gifts and all those are important to document. But it was that behavior distinction that we really wanted to lean into because it is coachable. It's stuff that anybody can do, anybody can be trained in, anyone can practice, can get better at, and so vital behavior the Crucial Influence book defines it as a new behavior that disproportionately affects the results you want to achieve.
Speaker 1:So one of the easy examples in the book was they were trying to. The easy examples in the book was they were trying to eradicate a disease in third world countries and they identified a positive deviant, which is one of my new favorite terms. They're like which community isn't having this problem as much In a positive way. They are deviating from the norm and they found that it was a water-based illness. That it was a water-based illness and they found that in that population the simple behavior was that they were filtering their water before they consumed it and that was creating this.
Speaker 1:You know, the vital behavior was straining the water and it was creating this very positive deviation in that community of their infection rates were way lower. So they introduced this vital behavior of take two water jugs with you when you go get water and that simple behavior makes it so much easier to strain your water, eradicate the illness and it, you know it disproportionately affected the results of freeing those people from this illness. A really simple behavior change just take a second water jug with you when you go get your water. But the results were incredible in bringing healing to that community. So those were the kind of things we were looking before. Are there almost like these pivot lever points of if we do these simple things intentionally and you know, for good reason, regularly all of those things, and you know, for good reason, regularly all of those things can we disproportionately affect the way young people are growing as servant leaders.
Speaker 2:I want to be a positive deviant.
Speaker 1:That's my new life goal.
Speaker 2:You guys are both positive deviants too. You're bringing some growth and challenge to the church. That's so good. So tell me about some of the positive deviant work. Or let's get deeper into behaviors, and I love behaviors. Coachability, et cetera makes a lot of sense. Behaviors can and should change over time. We're not talking about skills, abilities, the innate kind of gifts. No, this is the heart and character of Christ that can grow in us and that's why I love the Harrison, taking it every two to three years because you can see over a long period of time. You know, I used to one of my favorite indicators. I used to struggle with managing stress. Well, that's one of my favorite because the flip indicator from dynamic to passive behavioral traits, and now I've grown in terms of, maybe I have some habits of wellness, self-care, and now things that used to trigger me no longer do at least to the level that they once did. Would you speak to some of those behavioral changes that disproportionately affect growth in young people? What are we talking about here, jonathan?
Speaker 3:I think the coolest one that we've seen so far is the ability of showing up and what that looks like.
Speaker 3:That one, along with hearing and listening, were by far the two that just stood out immensely, and what that means and what revealed through the research is that that person can just show up and it like literally just show up. I mean it's that simple and, like what Jackie says, vital behavior is something that is like disproportionately, something that just absolutely transformed something in a huge, pivotal way where you just like it's that little thing and it's not about. It's not about I mean, it's about character, but it's not about like you know, you have to be this cool youth pastor or whatever. Like it's not about that at all. It's about your heart and being able to show up and yeah, I mean literally just being there. And one thing of the survey that we saw is that it's not about like no one really remembered what anybody said. They just remembered that they were there and so that was like just huge for us, or yeah, for us just to be able to see that. It was just the idea of showing up.
Speaker 2:Humans are so funny, aren't we? Because it's totally true.
Speaker 2:And it's kind of depressing at the very same time. It's like no one's going to remember, like how hard I worked to put together that well articulated message, and like the hook that landed at just the right time. Like, yeah, no one really cares. Bro. Now I could challenge that lovingly, because people did care, and write down the words of Jesus like words actually matter. But words are used because what is most of human interaction it's nonverbal or it's pre-verbal, like I'm here for you, I'm open to you, I'm curious about you, I'm going to follow up. I'm here for you, I'm open to you, I'm curious about you, I'm going to follow up, I'm going to ask questions about you and then I'm going to deeply listen.
Speaker 1:I'm, I'm here for you. Anything more to say about that, jackie? Well, so that's actually kind of a process that emerged through our research. We were building off of a previous study in our district that identified a lot of characteristics and attributes of leaders a lot of characteristics and attributes of leaders and we launched our previous district president launched this initiative with an ICNU toolkit. So, knowing what our people look for and are blessed by in servant leaders, the idea was that we would look for those things in the next generation and name them and invite them into an equipping process to move into leadership more. So we had this I see in you mentality that we were working toward of looking for giftedness and things like that, and we certainly saw that in our research too.
Speaker 1:But we had this other layer and we ended up calling it I see you so, before your giftedness, your ability, what you bring to the table, just the fact that God created you to be you, and I see you as God's beloved child, for who you are, regardless of anything that comes after. That was a really a really cool thing that we saw come through the data too, like, yes, this is about the giftedness God has given you for carrying out His work in the kingdom, but before that, and not as a stepping stone to it or anything like that, but just first and foremost, who you are as God's beloved person and being somebody that cares about that person and wants to get to know that person and help you know that you are loved and valuable. To get to know that person and help you know that you are loved and valuable and that, yes, too, god has gifted you to help be a part of his mission in the world. But even before any of that, you were still his beloved child. Before you bring anything to the table.
Speaker 1:It was really neat to see that come through so strongly in the research, Because, you know we talk about in the paper a lot of this fits with our gut instincts, but the fact that the data corroborates it and really, you know, just supports those things that we've felt as practitioners for so long, that was really neat to see, and it so aligns with our gospel understanding as Lutherans too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. How is ICU? That's such a great handle. Before I seen you, I see you. How is that connected to hearing and listening? You kind of differentiated those behaviors, Jackie. Would you take us into that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's see, we added these kind of extra taglines to hearing and listening and to showing up of of presence and posture. And so, for hearing and listening, it's just this posture of a nonjudgmental, open space where a youth can come to you, uh, with anything, knowing you're a safe space. As a toddler mom right now, I've heard people talk about when my kid does something wrong, which inevitably it's going to happen. I hope that their first thought isn't like, oh, my mom's going to kill me, but I can't wait to go to my mom and get help with this. That kind of open posture like I am here to hear and listen to whatever you have to say, like we are in this.
Speaker 1:Together we'll figure it out. I'm here for you, I'm a support to you. That, that that posture of coming to the relationship, ready to hear, ready to listen, whether it's a good circumstance or a challenging one. And I think to be that person that can do that work, you have to have invested in the IC, in you a little bit more and you know really it needs to be an authentic relationship. It's not for the sake of work and I plug you in as a volunteer in my ministry but just that first foundational work of I want to be a person in your life that is a safe place to listen to you, to hear what you have to say, because I've invested the work in getting to know you as a person before anything else.
Speaker 3:This is like hot on my mind just because I'm reading this right now. But like when Jesus visits the woman at the well, the disciples come back and they're like shocked, like they're like marvel, like what are you doing, talking this woman? And like I see you would be like Jesus didn't see. Like Jesus saw the woman and but saw, like you know, saw it, like saw her, not just like that, the fact that she's a woman you're not supposed to talk to a woman and she's a Samaritan and below from you know all the, all the but like Jesus saw her and the disciples saw her as a woman, being like, oh my gosh, what are you doing? And like that's kind of like the idea is that you like you see the person not just as someone who can fulfill a volunteer role, but like you see, you see them and it's, it's pretty huge.
Speaker 2:Well, that's so good. Jesus is no respecter of persons, right? Like there's nothing about Jesus that it's like wow, that guy, he's amazing, or she's, or that guy, that guy's a train wreck, you know, he sees like everything about us and the audacity of the gospel is that he loves all of us. He draws all of us, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it. He knows us completely, he knows us better than we know ourselves and yet he welcomes us in us, personally, individually and collectively, as his church, broken and battered by our sin in the world and Satan as we are, he welcomes us all into his, into his family. Like that should change radically the way we care for I interacted with a brother who wrote, who wrote a book called Becoming the Gospel, michael Gorman, and he talks about the new identity that we have as a follower of Jesus. And this is as Lutherans, we talk about this in the two kinds of righteousness, right, I mean what flows from Jesus passive faith and gets actively lived out in love for neighbor. That can sound so kind of trite and I just kind of.
Speaker 2:I've been indoctrinated into this sort of way of viewing the scriptures, which is a very, very helpful thing, but it must move out in love and care for everyone, for in youth ministry, for the jock that loves sports and for the and I don't like these labels, but those who are a little more heady into school and everywhere, the artisan and everywhere in between all these labels they get kind of.
Speaker 2:I have this vision that our youth ministry would be a place Cause I experienced this with your, with your wife there, amy I mean my youth experience was a place where all types of kids could come and were welcome, and not only that, they invited their friends. Like. I want that here at Christ Greenfield more, and we're working toward it for sure. But there's we've kind of bifurcated into these and I think social media has not helped a whole lot, right that well, I don't know. This is a youth group for this kind of kid or for this kind of kid or for this kind of kid, and so maybe I'm going down a little bit of a rabbit hole here, but I think it's a good one. What?
Speaker 2:does it look like for our youth ministry to be a place where every kid is welcomed and can belong. Jonathan, and then Jackson.
Speaker 3:Well, what you're talking about right now is what we saw in the research called further up and further in, or further in and further up, sorry Is. Or furthering in, further up, sorry is. That idea is that like, so you're welcomed. And then what is the next step? So it's not just like you, just don't stop there. And so, like our example was, is that, you know, like communion, you know, so there's a church that has a four-year-old, instead of just putting the communion on a bag, like the communion, you know, if you're doing like you know, walk by and you're doing your thing and you drop the communion cup into a basket and you move on right, instead of just having that be on a table, they actually have a four-year-old that holds it. You know, like just something, that's like something silly, like that.
Speaker 3:But like that, is this idea like, I see you right that you can actually, you can actually serve the Lord in a way of capacity of just holding the community. Like, basically, it's the, it's the rubbish, like cause it's going to be, it's going to be recycled, but it's like it's. It's like you get a smiling face on a kid. The kid's like I'm, I'm doing this is amazing, and then so that's like, that's one way, like I see you that you can help. And then, and then I, and then the next step is like okay, now that that four-year-old it's just, it's like when you really step back and look at what could we do so for youth group, for anything, for I mean like just the intergenerational church, like what are people doing right now? But what are we calling them to? The next thing and that's, I mean that's leadership and it's amazing and yeah, it's just, it's phenomenal, so that, yeah, so what you're talking about actually does relate exactly to what our research is showing, with further in and further up.
Speaker 1:Jackie, do you want to say anything about that?
Speaker 1:Well, no, just in exactly the same vein, what was really exciting was that none of this showed it had to be a particular kind of program in a particular kind of setting, in a certain demographic of church or youth group.
Speaker 1:And the other thread we brought out of it was it's not that every youth has to do everything or any particular thing, it's that there is something to do for every youth, something that they can be invited in. So I just think there's so much freedom in that because, regardless of urban or rural size of your church, your worship practice, our Synod's, on a spectrum with our regions, our width, our breadth, all of those things. And the good news in this is that it can be applied anywhere, because it's about opening a door. The door doesn't matter so much the characteristics of the door, but if you can train yourself to have eyes to see the God-given gifts in your youth and to look for doors to open, to invite them further up and further in, to say yes to the things that are on their hearts and bring them into your ministry, that is where this survey showed the success.
Speaker 2:So good? Were you surprised, either of you, that certain behaviors didn't show up as like the positive deviance that you were expecting? Any, any surprises or ahas, jackie, we'll start with you.
Speaker 1:That's a good question.
Speaker 1:Our survey was very anonymous, intentionally, so I don't know that we could have seen some of that, like this says, as people rooted in this district.
Speaker 1:Pretty well, like we have names, we have leaders, we know and we saw a few of those pops few of those pop, but we've had some intentional programs over the year and those weren't necessarily named by name but we don't know if they were here, but we don't see them explicitly named, if that makes sense, because we don't know the particular response with the person and we can guess that they're alluding to this situation and things like that. So I wouldn't say there was anything that we were shocked wasn't present on the whole. It just really aligned with our our feelings about our own experience in working with youth, feelings about our own experience in working with youth, and I think it was anonymous and generic enough that it really had this universal kind of quality that I don't know if it was the intentionality of how the survey was conducted or it always would have been this way, but it really did feel generally applicable, not rooted to the particular instances of our people and programs here. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jonathan, anything.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think the coolest thing that came out that I was shocked by but I was also just incredibly thrilled when it started to reveal itself is the idea that it can be anybody. Is the idea that it can be anybody Like? We just have this idea that you have to be in order to like, influence youth. You have to be this cool person who's hip, who knows language, who's on Snap, blah, blah, blah. All this stuff Turns out you just have to love youth, and I'm all about like my heart in the CMC program is developing a youth culture that's cross-cultural and like building youth culture and how this ties into this is just absolutely just phenomenal.
Speaker 3:And so that's what I love is that, like anyone, no matter the size of your youth group, no matter the size of your church, no matter how like you know, like if a pastor is like well, here's our youth leaders, be like, guess what they can create influence, they can do it. It doesn't matter. Like they're like they don't have any tattoos, that doesn't matter. Like it's like, get like, it's fine.
Speaker 3:The coolest thing is that it's all about like your heart and just wanting to do these things to see youth to show up, to be involved in their life and then just walk with them and then, when they come to be like I have a problem or whatever it is, be like that's okay, we're here and we can handle it and that's and that's creating the culture. And yeah, I mean, when I saw that that was slowly revealing itself, I was like Dustin, jackie, are you seeing this? This is so cool, and I don't know, it was just, that was just. A highlight of mine is being like anyone can do this, and that's the gospel too. It's like anyone can do it. So it's I don't know. I loved when that started to reveal itself.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know. I love, I love when that started to reveal itself. Oh, I love that too. So are you seeing some stories of? Maybe older adults maybe think of?
Speaker 3:people in there. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm putting myself in an age like in the forties.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I know it's not, but forties or fifties of folks that are saying you know what I really want to go down and they're having an impact. I get to coach right. I think that's one of my favorite ways. I get to be around, kind of shoulder to shoulder, with a number of young men 70 young men for an intense period of time for five or six months out of the year. So are you seeing some influence? Like, I think, the stereotype. Just to bust the stereotype is it's got to be the 25 year old, it's got to be the guy, he's got tattoos, so you know he has a past and all this kind of stuff, so you can relate. Bust some of those misnomers of the who gets to pour into kids, jonathan, and then we'll go to Jackie.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, even in my story, upbringing, I mean, one of the biggest influences was Kurt, and this guy was a massive dude who worked for a Christian bookstore back in the day, because they actually were there, and he would give me a CD. And when I started, when my buddy was dragging me to church, et cetera, blah, blah, blah, he would give me a CD almost every Sunday and I'd be like man, I have all these Christian CDs, I'm not going to listen to them or whatever. And then he would bring me a like, like, if he only knew what I did like yet last night he would be like get out of here, and he and he never was. And so, and this guy I mean this guy was 65 when I was, you know, I was 15 and he just I don't know, and generation can actually yeah, I mean can really have an influence. And it wasn't that he wasn't cool, but he just he loved, he loved well, and he showed up.
Speaker 2:Jackie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I the in the data. This project, in its scope, didn't necessarily look for those things, but, as as we've been talking about it and people have asked us these kind of questions, we've done what we can to pull things and, like the professional church worker versus lay leader, the male versus female, the aged adult versus the you know slightly older than me, peer, they're pretty down the line divisions. There's no clear majority winner in those kind of categories. We're working within a limited database because that wasn't a question we asked or we were trying to answer in how we asked demographic categories of you know, this was the most influential person and my own experience too.
Speaker 1:I grew up at a church that had DCE interns. We were a training site for them. So, you know, I had a cool, young, hip DCE student every year, a new one that I got to know. But other very influential people are with the Lord already, or many of them are snowbirds that attend your church down um uh for part of the year, and so you know the age range and, uh, demographic range in my own experience of people that poured into me. It, you know it affirms what we saw in the data too. Just yeah, there doesn't seem to be a limiter to the person that can show up well for you.
Speaker 2:So good, hey, let's talk about the power of yes. This is one, as I was looking through all of your data the power of yes for the servant leader as a balance between fully encouraging and fully challenging. That is the line for the parents and for the. Is that walk in that line, encouraging, but also the appropriate amount of challenge and the power of yes in that journey. Jackie, you want to kick us off there and then we'll go to Jonathan.
Speaker 1:This was a super important one to me. At the beginning of the report we referenced the Set Apart to Serve initiative by the LCMS, as well as the seven characteristics of highly effective youth leadership. I'm botching the title of that, but the LCMS Youth Ministry Office Research and I had the opportunity to hear a report on that from the Youth Ministry Office, and so for a long time I was like are we just trying to recreate the data that they already published? But they put out that a congregation should be a place of. I think it's warmth, encouragement and challenge, which very much fits with how we define. Yes, but with our behavior-based focus. If you ask the question, how do you become a congregation that is warm, challenging and encouraging, you start saying yes. I think that's the next step and what was so exciting about this project for me.
Speaker 1:And you know, we have the, we've been trained for this, we know our legal limits, we know security policies, we know you know safety and all of that is so important. We're not meaning to dismiss any of that. But what if we changed our approach to ministry when an idea was brought to us, rather than thinking of the reasons why it might not work? It might be hard. It's not what we're focused on. You know all of the more negatively connotated reasons to not do something. What if we changed our approach to be like, well, huh, what would it take to make that happen? Or what would be good in this? Or you know just that that flip in how we approach the things that are already exciting our kids, and if they're not excited yet, how do we come up with ideas that we invite them to say yes to too? So yeah, just that.
Speaker 2:Can you give, jackie? Can you give? I love actionable change. Can you give an example? Because for some of us you've been a pastor for a while or you know you just haven't been around youth ministry. Give me an example of a kid who came up to you with an idea like wow, okay, we'll give it a shot, and it actually turned out. You had to maybe modify it a touch, but it actually turned out to be a really great idea. Can you give an example to be a really great idea? Can you give an example? And then I'd love to go to you, jonathan, Some great stories here.
Speaker 1:For a while I was that kid in youth group For our confirmation program. We used faith incubators, which has a lot of artistic and creative freedom in it, and so every week in planning how we would teach confirmation the next week, we'd be like could we bring airsoft guns and make a standoff in the church parking lot and use that as the introduction to confession and absolution? And our DCEU was like well, let me check our insurance policy and we'll see what we get. But we got to do stuff like that and it really being able to think through creative ways to get to teach catechismal concepts made me love the work more than anything, I think. And I had a youth in my youth group in Spokane that heard about it's now Youth Lead, but the Lutheran Youth Fellowship Initiative, and I forget the connection of how he heard about it. But he's like could we fly to St Louis for that training? I was like I don't see, why not? Like you know, let's look into it. And we talked to our leadership and they we were at a season where we had graduated nine high schoolers the year before, so our youth group was much smaller for that season and they're like sure, you can use more of your budget. You know a higher amount per youth, like in this season. That's fine.
Speaker 1:So we went to St Louis and he ended up. We, we had an injury at camp the next summer. One of our youth leaders tore his Achilles and so I was driving him to the emergency room and that youth was like Jackie, I got this, like I've got the kids, you go. And it was just this amazing moment. And you know, we, we don't do it perfectly. There's nothing to say that he couldn't have done that without having gone to St Louis. We don't do it perfectly. There's nothing to say that he couldn't have done that without having gone to St Louis. But just it was really neat to have that opportunity to pour into an idea of his and to see him get excited to use his gifts down the line. So cool.
Speaker 2:Jonathan, any stories and or your thoughts on the power of yes and encouraging and challenging and walking that kind of middle road?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, when this came out, I was just insanely excited because I think I am that person and I think Dustin Jackie can, can, can validate that as being like, can we do this, can we do this, can we do this? Almost to the point of being annoying. But but yeah, I mean just if, if you can develop a culture that you don't, your, your immediate reaction isn't to say no, I mean just, I mean even like current, you know, like there's um a student in my youth group who's who just started Christian club in her high school. Um, that wasn't like a direct influence of me, but I think it was. You know just the, the culture of like you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, and then, and then yeah, and then stepping in and and then, yeah, creating a club, or I mean even even things like, as far as like, like confirmation, like we all have confirmation, like, do you have a project in confirmation that's tied to that, and like, and that would be amazing if you did what is? What are the things that you limit that project? And it can be anything. And so just ways in which, like, little things, like if you're, if you're, yeah, if you're a DC and you have like a confirmation, do you? Do you have like a confirmation? Do you have a project that's tied to that and like, allow kids to just have that project, and whatever it is.
Speaker 3:I mean I had one youth build a pee patch right Like, so it's like and this is like way before the research, which is in hindsight, looking back on the ways in which I didn't say no and I allowed youth to like raise up and be like oh, that sounds crazy, but go for it. It's just. It's like, oh my gosh, like now I, now you, as a DC, you kind of have like a power base to be able to say this is effective and it's and it's and it's really great. And so, um, yeah, but I mean the research, the research, like as far as, like current things, I mean I mean we, it's, we're, we're still so fresh that I mean like and we can look back and see in hindsight of where things have played out, but like as far as, like, how has your yes, right now worked out? We're like that's literally what we're working on right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. Hey, we're about at time, guys. I have so many more questions, but I just love your hearts. This has been fun. You make some closing statements that you pray, help us in the LCMS. You say we might consider how we might also measure entrances and participations built around presence posture. And yes, let's close with talking around that. Jackie, you go first and then Jonathan you'll close us down. This has been great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we are just diving in and trying to figure out next steps and applications and things like that. And so, reflecting on that vital behavior question again, what are the key behaviors that adults can engage in to help raise up youth as servant leaders? Our KBTs, our key behavioral themes? We feel like those are. Without taking too far of an analytical leap, we feel like the KBTs are really where the strength of this research lies, and so we're now we're experimenting with can we come up with vital behaviors from those Um? And so, as our like, first minimum viable prototype, we're throwing out um. I've called it the no name journal, cause I'm a DCE and I'm always a little bit cheesy but, we're.
Speaker 1:We're using this, this idea of know the person, name the gift, find the next yes and so, based on those, on those key behavior themes like those are action items get to know the person, show up well in their life, come with this posture of hearing and listening, be present with them. And we've built almost like a bullet journal. It's similar to, you know, like a pastoral care visit record, that kind of a thing, but right now it's all in paper, you know. So it's your own personal stuff. It's private. You can keep track of how you are showing up in your youth's lives, how you're praying for them, the events that you're attending, the ways you're trying to connect other adults into their lives. There's a calendar so you can keep key dates in their life, those sorts of things.
Speaker 1:And then the next step of the tool is, as you're getting to know the person and are in prayer about them, we're asking to develop eyes, you know, by the power of the Spirit, to see their giftedness and to just start naming the things that you see in that person that you know maybe they can't see in themselves. Jesus was pretty good at looking at a person and like Zacchaeus, and calling him son of Abraham, when that's probably the thing he felt least like in his current role, and just this idea of can we name the God-given things in their life that maybe will speak life into them just by having that named. And so there's a tool where you can kind of work through almost the same way as we did our qualitative analysis of you know we see this tag popping over and over again. We're working up a definition of what it means as it's being used throughout people's responses. But you know we're naming this gift and we're defining what that means for this person.
Speaker 1:And then the next step to that is well, how do we incorporate this into the ministries we're already doing? Or what do we need to start new and maybe stop something else to be able to utilize these things? So it's we, our prototypes available at our now lcmsorg slash, yli short for Youth Leadership Initiative, but we're just kind of running with it to see if this might be kind of that lever tool. Or you know the next step on finding what those, those vital behavior levers levers are uh for equipping adults to, to train up servant leaders.
Speaker 2:Man. I'm so glad you're in our church, jackie. You're brilliant. Love it, love your heart. So much fun, jonathan. What more to add to what Jackie just said?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean just so. It's every youth, every ministry, gospel responsibility. And so if we could just that's like our, that's like our, our, our motivating factor is that, um, we believe that we can influence every youth in every form of ministry, whether it's camp or church or whatever it is every ministry, and then they can all have this gospel responsibility. This idea of just you know, like leading up, leading up people, like there's it's, there's so much freedom in it, but you can do it because God's calling you to do it so kind of hard.
Speaker 2:So, the big aha for me. Well, there's been a number of them, but right there, in what you shared every person at every age and stage, like if churches had intention around, because all I heard, I know you, I see you right and then I see how God has gifted you. So from the ICU to the IC in you, and then I want to help you on your next step. What is your next ministry step? How does the gospel get lived out in your home, in the marketplace job that you have, wherever it happens to be, wherever you have influence? I want to be about equipping you for that right next.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is a system, that is a way of being, and you can actually put that for those of the data, the data folks in our ministry like you can walk down that line.
Speaker 2:Just a little shout out. This is exactly what we teach at the ULC, not just with youth, but exactly with what's your leadership development pathway after you start to have the conversation with that person. So put them on that serve team, put them into leadership in time, help them to coach others as their influence grows and maybe they grow up into the next generation of leaders within your church as the director of ministry and whatever the role happens to be. So there's nothing new about this. No offense to what you're saying, it's just I love. The big thing for me is we'll get super passionate, I think, across the synod, about who's going to challenge this right. Who's going to challenge you guys pouring this into the next generation. Like there's nothing controversial about this. We should be doing it at every age and stage. Anything more to say about that and how this could be enacted, even cross-generationally, jonathan.
Speaker 3:I mean just going back to the four-year-old holding the communion cups, right, like it's little things that you see, that can be big things. Like you know, like we're not just like, oh my gosh, we have this huge, this huge thing. Now we have to raise all these leaders, no, like just one, one youth or one person at a time in their ministry. And then the next thing, like it's, it's like it's okay, it's like so it's just, you know, it's not like oh my gosh, what, jackie? Anything to add.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Jonathan and I serve on a team in our district called the Encouragers. Because we're four states, we are partially rostered, we have a lot of lay leaders doing the same youth ministry work, and so we have a team dedicated to kind of trying to be connected to and helping those leaders feel like they're not alone in their ministry. And so we were like why don't we just took the word youth off of all this stuff and use the same idea in how we as district leaders try and care for our other leaders doing it? So I think that generational aspect is there and we're working on developing a database. The paper tool is to kind of train us in the work of having these eyes and documenting and things like that.
Speaker 1:We're building an online database. It'll still be all anonymous. You know we're asking you to share what you're doing with minors, so there's not going to be any names or ages connected with it. But just to be like this think group pool of like oh yeah, I have this kid with this gift. This is what my ministry looks like. How have other people found to invite and plug them in? And you know, we're talking about a database for youth, but maybe also one for leaders too, of how we can, just like group think, this invitation posture in our church body and beyond.
Speaker 2:This is so fun Closing comment here for me, and then I'll get you guys taken and point people to where they can be a part of this youth leadership initiative. So exciting Is skill development. There's new neurological research that's going on right now that says skill development, gift development, is not about the 10,000 hours You've heard this right. You've got to do 10,000 hours of a skill to become an expert in it or even proficient in it. That's not what the data is showing. They're actually showing and this is so applicable. This is all secular stuff, but it's so applicable to discipleship? No, it's.
Speaker 2:I see in you and then I'm going to give you small bits of feedback based on that skill. It's not failure is not fatal, it's not like you're not gifted. I see this in you. But we could try this, we could try this and the quicker that iteration of failure and minimal viable product moving it out, moving it out, testing it, trying it, failing, and then like growing the muscles for that respective skill. That's what leads to proficiency in that respective skill. Isn't that fascinating? Like it's not about the amount of time, like you can, but it's about humility. So only the humble learner can receive from the person who's advanced. They're like oh, I get just enough Jesus juice of encouragement and then I'm growing. Isn't that exactly what Jesus did with the disciples for the three years?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm growing. Isn't that exactly what Jesus did with the disciples for the three years? Oh yeah, I'm going to let you try, I'm going to come back. We're going to like, shape it. I see the pride that's in you and he started the greatest movement by the Spirit's power the world has ever known, a movement of humility using their respective gifts, and the Apostle Paul obviously keys into this in Romans, chapter 12, 1 Corinthians, chapter 12,.
Speaker 2:Looking at all these different gifts, where would you be, apart from the head and the hands, et cetera? Right, all unique gifts. Wouldn't it be amazing? This sounds like the kingdom. Wouldn't it be amazing if we looked at one another like that and said, wow, there's a part of me that I see in you and I've grown in proficiency toward this end. This is discipleship. It's not the person that's way ahead. They're just like one step ahead and they're helping to like, form, the character, the content, the craft of that person as they grow up into the head which is Jesus, the Christ.
Speaker 2:We need to get away from this professional clergy, professional church worker class, the people that are on the stage that do the thing it's hurting our mission and come down with the people this is what Jesus did and come down into with the people. This is what Jesus did, and I sit with them, identify their gifts and help them toward their next. Yes, I just affirm everything you're saying, man, it's so, it's so. Jesus inspired, holy Spirit inspired. Praise be to God. Closing comments Jonathan, and then I'll let you close it out.
Speaker 3:Oh man, this is like my fourth closing comment.
Speaker 2:I don't know, well, you got one more. I I don't know, well, you got one more. I need to say something else to what I just said. Just respond to what I just said, jonathan.
Speaker 3:I mean it's absolutely true. I mean like everything. Yeah, I mean the cool thing about this is that it. I mean, I think, like jokingly you know, we started doing before we did all the research we were kind of like reading all the you know and like the like the 30,000 foot view step back is like you, like you said, like it's, it's not profound, like this isn't, this isn't a phenomenal insight at all. And then what? What our great leader, dust, said, like anything like that, like literally, when we started, we're like this is what we're going to find. We're going to find something to be like uh, duh, basically, but like the cool thing about that is that you have all this research of knowing like this is this, is this is this is this isn't just hindsight, this is just gas. Like this is actually things, these are people that are involved with leaders, they're doing things, and yeah, and it's and it's so, it's yeah. So, yes, it is very, very, very simple, but it's also research backed and it's kind of cool to fall back on that.
Speaker 2:Well, simple things need to be executed, and that's not a simple task. The execution is not a simple thing. To take that next step in uncharted waters, that's not a simple thing. So I love how this tool moves us in that direction. Jackie, now your third or fourth closing comments and help people figure out where they can get connected with your work, jackie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's no simple thing, but I think, as LCMS people, we're wired for it. We are missional, walking together in Concord people, and so we have amazing training programs. If we trust those to trickle down to the people that are on the ground doing the work, I just think, yes, it's going to be a challenge, yes, there's a lot of ask in it, but we're primed for it. God is going with us If we keep our eyes on him and follow where he's leading. Like we can do this and I, yeah, it's exciting to have the opportunity to be a part of it.
Speaker 2:So good. How can people connect?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So we are trying to make our nowlcmsorg slash YLI website kind of our hub for all of this. You can download the full report there, which has wonderful questions at the end, you know, to help you have eyes, to look at what you're already doing, small changes you can make to help it go better. That will also be the place where right now, you can download kind of the test version of our no-name journal. There's a feedback form. So if you're using it, tell us what you love, tell us what you hate, how we can make it better. We're going to be launching that. We have a youth and family ministry conference here in the district in May and we're going to pilot that out to all of our leaders there.
Speaker 3:Anyone can join us too, it's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to Leavenworth, washington, which is a wonderful place if you haven't been there, and it's just a time to connect and be recharged. Chad the keys with Lutheran Hour Ministries is going to be our speaker this year. It's always a fun time, but we're the now LCMS district because there's also North Wisconsin, so they're an NW we are NOW. So if you're trying to find our website, n-o-w lcmsorg slash YLI, that's our hub. We also have a youthandfamilyatnowlcmsorg email address that I monitor and can share with Jonathan and Dust, so that's the best place if you want to shoot us an email. Yeah, we would love for people to have this stuff in their hands and test it and let us know how well it works for them so we can keep working toward the best thing to equip our leaders with.
Speaker 2:And this has been so inspiring, grateful for you both. This is the Tim Allman podcast. Please like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you take in these conversations, I don't know how anybody could listen to this and say you know what? I'm not a fan of that. That doesn't sound good Like. No, let's get grumpy Lutheran. Let's find the joy of Jesus especially and unite as the people of God in the LCMS to raise up the next generation of leaders, to see them, to see their gifts and to work toward the strategic yes based on those gifts. It's a beautiful thing to partner with you both. You're a gift to the body of Christ and to me and to everyone who listened today. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Tim Allman Podcast. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, jackie. Thanks, jonathan.
Speaker 3:Thank you Tim.