S4, Ep 2: The SC LGBTQ+ Collection: Archives, Community, and Memory Work at CofC

In this episode of What IFF?, we’re talking with Mary Jo Fairchild (she/her) and Leo Dunlap (he/him) from the SC LGBTQ+ Collection at the Addlestone Library’s Special Collections. Listen to learn more about intersectional and ethical archiving, the archival process, fascinating materials, the importance of archiving histories and its impacts, the latest exhibit at Special Collections, and much more. 

• SC LGBTQ+ Collection LibGuide
• Donate to the SC LGBTQ+ Collection
• About the current SC LGBTQ+ Collection Portrait Project
• Support Community-Based Organizations: 
• We Are Family
• Charleston Black Pride
• Alliance for Full Acceptance
• Follow Special Collections on Instagram 
• Ephemeral Material: Queering the Archive by Alana Kumbier
•  SAA Core Values Statement and Code of Ethics 
• SCLGBTQ Oral Histories, Archives, and Outreach 

Transcript

[00:00:00]

[soft chimes intro music]

[00:00:06]

Mallory (MM): Welcome to What IFF?, a podcast where we imagine intersectional feminist futures and talk about the role social activism plays in our everyday lives. I'm your host, Mallory Mason, and I use they/them pronouns. You might remember me from spring of 2025 and I'm back! If you don't know me. Hi, I'm Mallory, I'm a double major in Women's & Gender Studies and communication with a minor in Spanish, and I'm a rising senior here at CofC. 

[00:00:30]

MM: Today I have two very special guests, Mary Jo Fairchild and Leo Dunlap, who both work with the SCLGBTQ+ Archives with the Special Collections located on the third floor of Addlestone Library

[00:00:43]

MM: Before we get started, I wanted to talk quickly about intersectionality and what we mean when we mention it. Intersectionality is a term coined by Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to refer to the overlap, or intersection of discrimination and oppression experienced by people, especially women of color, who are marginalized based on factors like race, gender, sexuality, and more. We cannot have feminism without it being intersectional. Recognizing overlapping identities and factors like these. Now let's jump into the conversation.

[00:01:13]

[soft chimes music]

[00:01:18]

MM: Let's introduce both of you. 

[00.01:21]

Leo (LD:) My name is Leo Dunlap. I'm a senior at the College of Charleston. I'm majoring in studio art and minoring in art history. I've been an intern with the SC LGBTQ Special Collection since 2024? 2025? 2024. That's it. Yeah. 

[00.01:42]

Mary Jo (MJ): Yay! Thanks, Leo. My name is Mary Jo Fairchild. I use she/her pronouns. I am an archivist and rare book librarian in the College of Charleston Special Collections. My formal title is Research and Instruction Coordinator. Um, and really what that means is that I manage public services in the reading room, and I also manage our instruction and teaching program in Special Collections. And for the past several years, I've had the joy of leading and curating the SC LGBTQ+ collection in Special Collections. 

[00.02:18]

MM:  Yay! This is awesome. Also, Leo is my roommate and I've lived with him since my freshman year

LD: yeah

MM:so I guess we'll jump into it unless y'all have anything else to add. 

[00.02:28]

LD: I forgot my pronouns; I use he/him pronouns.

[00.02:32]

MM: Before we really jump into like the, the tea again, can one of you provide some kind of like brief explanation or history of the archives and then kind of your connection to the archives. Like how did you end up in this position? 

[00.02:49]

MJ: Um, cool. Well, I'll start with a little bit of the history and share a little bit about how I got here. But Leo can also jump in there at the end as well. So the SC LGBTQ+ Collection was established about eight years ago to identify, preserve and elevate the stories and history of the LGBTQIA+ community in South Carolina. So prior to this, there was a large gaping hole, a gap, a silence in the archives documenting local and regional LGBTQ+ history. Um, and so initially, the project was grassroots in nature, and it was started by historian and archivist Harlan Greene. And together, Harlan, with a small team of grant funded memory workers, uh, sought to increase representation and combat erasure of LGBTQ+ history. Um, in, in our- in our area. So over the course of this initial period, a handful of years, Harlan and his team accessioned dozens of archival collections and recorded many, many oral histories. And so now the SC LGBTQ+ collection has over 50 archival materials and 65 plus oral histories, so recorded interviews and, you know, the question is like, well, what are these? And so, generally speaking, they're both the records of organizations that have been responsible for advocating for LGBTQ+ rights in South Carolina, and also the papers of individuals and visionary leaders and people who have been responsible for moving forward discourse at the local, state and national levels. And uh, these materials document a variety of different aspects of being queer solidarity in the region, gender identity and changing cultural norms, health care and health disparity. Local pride celebrations got lots of pride, pictures and more. And then overall, just the contributions of community members and organizations to the character and the fabric of the region. And I got involved again in 2024 when when Harlan Green retired, I was asked to continue leading stewardship and curation of the now permanent, institutionally supported SC LGBTQ+ collection. 

[00.05:24]

LD: I got involved in 2024 through the Pride Center, or the former Pride Center, with, uh, Tater Tot Talks, which was my job at the time, which was a monthly talk that we would have with guests from the Charleston area who had something interesting or important to say about being queer, being LGBTQ, being queer in the space. And we, we worked with the LGBTQ Special Collections, and we had a really great time talking about all things queer, archival and local history. And, uh

[00.06:03]

MJ: and we ate tater tots

LD: and we ate tater tots. It was a beautiful moment of community and connection, in which I fell in love with the archives and later became a part of it, which was super, super fun.

[00.06.14]

 MM: Yeah, it's all history now, right? 

[00.06:16]

LD: Boo

[00.06:18]

MM: All right. So I guess going off of that, what do the archives mean to you? And then what kind of impact have they had on you and your work here? 

[00.06:28]

LD: Throughout, like, my high school career, I always had a really special interest in queer and trans history, especially in regards to like, you know, transness and art and creativity. And it was something that I always wanted to know more about, but that felt– in a lot of spaces where I would be encouraged to research it– It felt inappropriate or, you know, like it wasn't deserving of that kind of attention or, you know, it didn't deserve to be treated with the academic rigor that other subjects were deserving of and that kind of, you know, really minimized the the fact that there is that- that deep and rich and fascinating history, uh, it just makes it seem kind of invisible. So when I got to CofC and I learned that there was this space where histories were treated with the attention that they deserve and being remembered and recorded and made accessible, I was really excited to be a part of it. 

[00.07:30]

MJ: Yay, we're so stoked you're here, Leo. Yeah. For me, uh, one thing that's really cool about working with the LGBTQ+ Collection is that it's a living archive. It's very much, deeply, deeply rooted in community. And this community extends beyond photographs and scrapbooks. And, you know, the sort of, um, text based or two dimensional objects that we often associate with archives and extends into just like working with a community of really, really amazing people. And that's something that I wasn't expecting. And it's such a delightful surprise. 

[00.08:08]

MM: Yeah. For sure. And it's I mean, all of it's so special. Like I and you're, you're seeing all these stories and then also getting to live in some of these moments too. I mean, there's stuff that's- that's happened here on campus that's now in the archives too. And I think it's just it's so it's a great experience. It's so cool. This is getting kind of ahead of ourselves. And it's also a loaded question, but what are your hopes for the future of the archives? And so I guess in that, like, what would you like to see? Are there any, like, types of, like, programs and events that you, you all want to do? 

[00.08.42]

MJ: Well, the first thing, first and foremost is that we want to see the archives continue to grow and thrive. Full stop. That's the number one, number one thing. But more concretely, I'd like to see the archives continue to reflect and document the dynamic experiences and contributions of the community with the support and trust of the community. And that's something that is an ongoing effort. And also, you know, Leo and I were talking about this on Friday a little bit, how, you know, the reading room on the third floor of the Addlestone Library where people come to use the, the archives could be cultivated– and we want to cultivate it as much more of a third space for community gathering and belonging and accessible, welcoming space. You know, I think back to I think it was like two Decembers ago, one of our donors and community leaders named Lynn Dugan, who was the first convener of the Charleston Pride Parade back in 2010. Lynn brought a couple of things to add to her collection. So it was it was an accrual. That's what we call an addition to a collection in the archives. So Lynn brought some material to us into the reading room. But along with that, Lynn brought several friends and they spent several hours in the reading room in the morning just, you know, poring over the materials that are inland papers together and making all these discoveries and telling stories. And it was very, very beautiful. And so we'd like to see the reading room become much more of a space where, where those things happen and where people can see themselves in the reading room doing that. 

[00.10:29]

LD: Yeah, in some ways it can be kind of an intimidating space to enter. I know, you know, there's the kind of stuffy, academic vibe of like, an archive can feel intimidating to access and like, you know, not- not for everybody. But that's not true. And it's really, really fun. We want to make people feel like their history is accessible to them. It's, you know, a really difficult part of being in the archives is when I have something I need to do, and then I go back there to to find something, and I get lost in how much cool stuff there is. And I like 45 minutes have passed and I'm like three aisles down just looking through these old books. I've completely forgotten what my project was. There's just so much fun to be had and so much cool things to discover in there, and we want everybody to be able to discover it. 

[00:11:21]

MJ: Plus, people who work in the archives are super cool and nice. 

LD: Yes. They're nice.

[00.11:26]

MJ: We love when people come and see us.

[00.11:28]

LD: I when I first joined, I was a little worried because I was like, I have no experience with these people, and I can tell that everyone around me has this expertise that I am lacking, and I feel intimidated to ask questions because I know some of them are going to be like stupid questions. But whenever I ask the stupid question, everyone was overjoyed to give me an answer. People were just so excited to to share what they had learned. It's definitely not a space where you will, in my experience, feel judged or belittled for your lack of knowledge. Instead, it is an opportunity to learn and that's so fun! 

[00.12:03]

MM: I love that so much. And I'm kind of going back to some things that Mary Jo mentioned a little bit ago. You said something and it made me think of, like, it's- it's curated, like, kind of by and for the community. You know, also having those people actually interacting with the archives and oh, I just- I love it so much. And then also the third spaces, which is so ironic because I did one of the previous episodes on the podcast about third spaces specifically. So this is like, its a full circle moment! And I think it's really interesting that you brought this up. This was kind of one of my later questions, but getting into, like, the kind of like this fear of archives and like these types of materials like this is definitely something that exists. I mean, especially for people that haven't really, like, interacted with them much. And I, I also say that from personal experience, I'm like, whoa, archives like that sounds kind of scary and big and like, really important. But I really love, like, shedding light on the fact that, like, we, you know, you want people there, you want people to see and also like libraries and librarians like they're always just the greatest people. And there's definitely like overlap with the archives too. You've kind of touched on this a little bit, but in terms of like the fear and like kind of how archives seem like this daunting thing. If I am a student and I'm going into the archives for the first time, what would you want to say to them? To kind of like, ease those fears and the- the anxiety of the archives, if that makes any sense. 

[00.13:23]

MJ: I love how Leo said that the most difficult thing that he encountered was the like having too much rich information.

[00.13:32]

LD: The siren song, the allure of all of that cool old stuff. 

[00.13:37]

MJ: But, you know, starting sort of from scratch, right? The reading room in archival reading rooms in general can be really intimidating. There's a locked door that you have to go through to get into the space. A dear archival elder always used to say that the, the doors to reading rooms are locked to keep the materials in, not to keep researchers and community members out, because we do take our stewardship very seriously. You know, the materials that are in the archives. You know, we're we're, you know, there to care for them. We don't want anything to happen to them. But access comes before everything. Speaking for myself as an archivist. But, you know, when- when you come to a reading room like Special Collections, there are always archivists and librarians ready to greet you at the door and to have a conversation with you, to welcome you. Get you comfortable in the space, oriented to, you know, whatever, um, you know, research question you might be coming to answer on the day that you visit. So I guess, you know, we're super friendly. It's super, super kind. We, we love, uh, you know, people who work in public services in the archives. Um, do it because they love it. Um, and they love interacting with people. We learn from the folks who come to the archives to look at materials. And most of us are lovers of learning. So.

[00.14:59]

MM: Yeah, just I mean community space and I- and you can just feel like all the love in this room right now. Like, I, I just think, like, these are the most interesting people you could talk to because they know so much about all of this stuff. It's like I've heard so much tea from Leo about, like, stuff in the archives. And I just all of this is so, so amazing. 

[00.15:20]

LD: I come home with drama from 1910.

MM: It's so cool. I saw, like, a video on Instagram like, earlier today, and it was just “I work in the archives, so I'm hearing about, like, all the tea,” you know, I'm like, this is- this is what Leo does all day

MJ: pretty much. 

LD: But I love it. The gossip.

[00.15:35]

MM: Like, kind of going back to, like, just the access of the archives too, um, how how does someone get there? How can someone just use the archives? Just the average person, like an undergrad student? Um, what's the process for that? If you can speak on that a bit.

[00.15: 49]

MJ: So the archives are open to the public. Everyone is welcome into the Special Collections Reading Room. Um, we're open Monday through Friday from 9 a.m. to noon, and then we take a wee lunch break from noon to 1:00 and have our snacks. And hopefully anybody that's in the reading room will also take a break for themselves. And then we resume operations at 1:00, and then we close at 4:00. So during those times, all you need is a photo ID to get into the Addlestone Library, which is located at 205 Calhoun Street and Special Collections and the Reading Room are on the third floor, Uh, if I didn't say that already, of the Addlestone Library. And so it's as easy as that. No appointment is necessary. However, if you want a little special treatment, you can send a message through our Lib Answers chat channel. Or you can email me and I would love to- to welcome, welcome you, listeners or any students or classes to, to Special Collections reading room with open arms. 

[00.16:56]

MM: Perfect. Thank you for that. I'm going to kind of move on to my next question. Can you talk a little bit about the ethics behind the archives and what's the process behind archiving materials? 

[00:17:07]

MJ: I love this question because ethics are central to everything we do. And I was thinking about this because, um, Mallory was kind enough to give us some hints about what they were going to be asking us today. And I think I'm just gonna really lean closely into, you know, my- my personal philosophy is, you know, um, revolves around an ethics of care in managing, uh, everything that I do, whether it's interacting with donors or researchers or refoldering a collection. But the Society of American Archivists, which is the professional organization that really is a guiding light for, for archivists and memory workers, does have a code of ethics and a list of core values. And again, I don't want to get into the weeds or any into any kind of jargon-y, um, talk with- with this. But the first core value of the Society of American Archivists list is access. And so everything we do comes back to providing access to the material that we steward in the archives. Other core values include diversity. You know, we're- we're seeking to document everyone's history. Um, which I think is really important because in the past, archival repositories, um, and, you know, institutions, uh, we’re, we're not good at that. Um, there's a tremendous gaps in the historic record or the, you know, that you would find in repositories. So, um, now diversity is, is sort of enshrined in the code of ethics. Preservation. Also sort of responsible stewardship and selection is a big piece that I think is really important for archivists to kind of break down, for people to help the general public understand that we take our role as stewards very seriously. And but part of that responsible stewardship is making difficult decisions. We can't save everything. We can't save everything generated by everyone in perpetuity. And so some of the work involves making informed decisions about what to keep and what to, you know, not- not assession or not- not gather. And here's when the idea of bias comes in. All archivists, all memory workers, all sort of professionals in this line of work have implicit bias.

[00:19:30]

MJ: And so that's why it's very important for us to make decisions in a shared sort of communal way, to consult with community members or the people who are documenting about what sort of decisions we're making and selection. And also, repositories don't always have the capacity to care for certain kinds of materials or certain volumes of materials. So like, for example, if somebody brought us a ball gown from 1986, that would- that has been stored in an unconditioned attic space or something for a very long time. That would be something that we would work with a, like, a partner repository or somebody else that is better equipped to handle, like, old textiles, but was still like, you know, mission driven in terms of access and everything. Because, you know, we don't- we don't have the capacity to, to store something into care for something that large here at the College of Charleston, for example, unless somebody wants to give us a ton of money. To build out a conservation lab and space to do so, which. Yeah. Um, so ethics are really, really central to, to everything we do. And, um, Leo, you might have an example of, I don't know, not to put you on the spot, but, um, do you have any- anything to add to that? 

LD: I don't know

[00.20:54]

MM: or I guess, do you want to talk about, like, the process of how something gets archived? 

[00.20:58]

LD: I don't work with the processing of the materials.

[00.20:01]

MJ: Leo has been central to the like, outreach, amplification. Um, really like working with materials to, to make them even more robustly available to researchers. But I can speak really briefly to what it looks like, like from like soup to nuts, if you will, from like when a collection comes to us to when it ends up on the desk in the reading room. 

[00.20.23]

MM: Um, because I'm not super familiar and I- this is just something that goes in my mind. I don't know if it's like super. I don't know who's working with that. I don't know who's doing all that stuff, but I'm. I am interested if you just want to give, like, some kind of overview. Like, how does it get from someone's, like, personal things to an archive collection? 

[00.21:44]

MJ: I love that you pointed this out, Mallory, because there's a ton of invisible labor that takes place in the archives. 

MM: Oh I’m sure

MJ: So, you know the donor, somebody may contact us and say, I've got these boxes from when I was president of the Alliance for Full Acceptance in 1992, and I want to give them to you. So that kind of- it can start like that. It can start like, um, you know, we see some materials up at auction for, like, a rare book deal or something. We're like, oh, this is a very rare imprint that we need to buy for that. So, so it's one of those things material comes to us and donors fill out a deed of gift, which sort of gives Special Collections the right to steward and provide access to material in, in this repository. And then the material goes to our, our processing division or our technical services, where things are put into order, arranged, they're described at sometimes a really sort of broad level and sometimes very granular, depending on the material and the technical services and processing. Archivists are incredible, and they are the ones that are laboring behind the scenes, and they are the ones that do the labor, which helps us to discover the material that is in an inventory for our collection or a catalog record. So our keywords that we're plugging into our search boxes, we have our technical services archivists to thank for that. And then, you know, they publish those records and we put the boxes on shelves and um. Voila. 

[00.23:21]

MM: Interesting, interesting. Yeah. I'm also- I'm going to go back to something you said earlier that still sticking with me, particularly about, like, the access of the archives and how, like, things are archived to be remembered and to be seen. And so that's I mean, obviously, that's why the accessibility is so important. But, I mean, you all do so much work to really put it out there. And I think that it's, it's just a wonderful thing. Um, and also like the ethics part of it, which makes me think so much about, um, in Women's & Gender Studies, especially in our, our courses and, you know, just the community too, like, we, we kind of carry those similar things like it is a community and we have community commitments in a lot of our classes. And I think that's a cool connection there. So thank you for, for speaking on that a bit. Um, this is a more fun question, and Leo, I'm interested to see what you have to say about this, but what are some of your favorite materials that are in the archives? So this can be like a particular person's story or just a really cool, like, thing that you've seen. Just anything and everything. This is this is what we're all, we're- we're all here for.

[00.24:23]

LD: This was a really difficult question because there's truly- there's just so much in there. Every- every collection has so many interesting stories in there. But there are some things that drew me in particular, and my beginning of my time interning with the SC LGBTQ Special Collections, I worked with creating some primary source sets, which is getting all of the primary sources that mention a particular person or topic together to make it a lot easier for researchers who have a specific research question. And one of the source sets I did was on queer authorship before the 1980s, and that was the most fun I've ever had in my life. It was such a blast. Also very, very informative and very enlightening in the ways that people made sense of queer identities and trans identities before they were, like, socially described in the way that they are now. People who were making sense of these, like communities that were happening underground and kind of invisibly and making sense of their own personal identity on their own without like a guiding light of, like social visibility of- of queerness. Gosh, it was so fun. There were a lot of travel guides that were really interesting to me. For queer people who were visiting places on where are these underground hidden spots that you can go to to find community, to find parties, to find drag queens, to find potential partners. That kind of knowing that, that that queer community was happening even when it was completely invisible to, to the naked eye is. So exciting to know that it was always present 

[00.26:09]

MM: and it will always be present. 

LD: True. There were a couple people too, who had very interesting stories. There's Dawn Langley Simmons, who we'll talk about a little bit later too, I'm sure, but I did another primary source set on her, and her story was so fascinating. She was one of the first publicly transitioning and medically transitioning people in South Carolina. She had gender affirming surgery, one of the first examples of it. And she was also in the first legal interracial marriage in South Carolina. So she, in 1969ish came to Charleston. Uh, well, she had been there a little bit previously, but she was in Charleston as this, uh, white socialite and publicly transitioned into a woman and married a Black man. And she really shook things up. She was-

MM: Oh. I'm sure. 

LD -Oh, a big deal. She became kind of immediately a legend. Um, and, you know, both positive and negative ways to people. I, I, I'm sure you can understand how 1960s and 70s Charleston was not necessarily a fan of this lady all the time, but, you know, the fact that she was able to do that in such a social and less like a visible way that made her, like, forced her to become kind of an activist, even though she was really just trying to live her life. It's really fascinating. 

[00.27:37]

MM: Yeah. Mary Jo, do you. Do you have anything you want to talk about? 

[00.27:42]

MJ: You know, I don't have any favorites. 

MM: Okay. 

MJ: As my grandmother used to say, everybody gets the same amount of jelly beans. Um, but I will say that, um, this might be a good spot for me to mention sort of the chronological representation in the collection. So most of the materials we have are sort of like early, mid, late 20th century documenting, you know, people's experiences during that time. Um, but the oldest thing we have is actually 19th century. It's a commonplace book and a couple of daguerreotypes and letters of a woman named Charlotte Myers. Um, and so that's an outlier in our collection, but her material is, you know, definitely of her time. And I'll put that out there as a teaser for folks, um, to- to come and learn more about Charlotte Myers. 

[00.27.30]

MM: Yes. Awesome. So I guess jumping into the next question, especially based off of kind of what Leo was talking about with Dawn and her, her whole story, I guess, is a- a bit of a segue. The archives website notes that the archives are committed to intersectionality. Can you speak to this, and how can we observe intersectionality in the archives and your work? 

[00.28.56]

MJ: So maybe I can talk about sort of like theoretical practical stuff. And then I know this is, this is where Leo has a really good example. Um, so yes, um, the archives are committed to an intersectional perspective that recognizes that LGBTQ+ lives are influenced by race, gender, ability, religion, age, and all of the other sort of identities, um, that, uh, folks can, um, have and, you know, be aspects of their, of their, of their lives. And what that looks like in the archives is de-centering dominant narratives sort of back to, you know, the, the, the gaps and silences that have heretofore been, um, not heretofore, but, um, you know, I'll say, like in the early 20th century especially, um, and, you know, not not so long ago here with, um, LGBTQ materials been, um, you know, a problem. You know, we have to decenter some of that and retrain and unlearn our own ways of seeing those, you know. As archivists, we are also constantly updating classification systems and making the words we use to describe archives more inclusive and more representative. And so, you know, in the past, where controlled vocabularies in the libraries, really and this is still a thing, honestly, because libraries, institutions, systems are a sort of systemic issue. But often things are portrayed as, uh, very binary. So like race and gender are, you know, those are those two things are viewed separately. When we know that, you know, intersectional archiving pushes for interconnected, descriptive metadata that reflects how overlapping identities actually influence an individual's or a group's history. So that's a more sort of behind the scenes work and what we try to flesh out in our advocacy work. And then also, you know, finally shared stewardship and really being in practice with and in community again, community being really central to our work, especially with the LGBTQ+ collection, community members deciding how they want to be documented. And that's, you know, something that we've been really committed to over the past couple of years with convening a community advisory board of people from a variety of organizations and just being- being in Charleston. So that's really helpful to keep, you know, the College of Charleston as an institution accountable and making sure it's, you know, we're, you know, being representative, representative in- in our work, we're making decisions that are shared and advocating and, you know, connecting with all the all the amazing people in the community. So that's kind of how intersectionality shows up in, in our work. 

[00.32:03]

LD: We've- we've been really intentional about the stories that we highlight and about how people's life stories that intersect with multiple identities and systems of oppression and how that affects– hugely affects– their lives, not just being LGBTQ or being queer. Like, for example, we are highlighting the story of Regina Duggins– which we'll get to later– who is the founder of Charleston Black Pride, and whose life story had been profoundly influenced by her interaction with systems of class and race and disability. Having, you know, disabled family members really affected her life growing up in poverty in New York City and growing up as a Black woman and a Black queer woman, you know. So. To tell her story as a queer person and to exclude the elements of, of race, class and ability would be to do her a disservice and to do a disservice to future historians and present historians 

[00.33:09]

MJ: So beautifully put.

MM: I agree. And I mean, that's a great example too. And in terms of, like, intersectionality and the representation, like, especially we're in the lowcountry. And so, you know, there's- there's so many people of color here. And I love how- how many of them are highlighted and really shown in the archives. Mary Jo, I love what you said about unlearning. And then also, like, working with people. Those are both, like, really big things, especially in, like, the Women's & Gender Studies courses. Of course I'm going to tie it back, but I think that that's a really important distinction to working with people. I mean, I think we all know that in, like, when we're learning history and things, we're hearing this part of it, but not the other. And we also want to represent people the way that they want to be represented. And so I just yeah, I think- I think it's great. It's so relevant. What kind of impact have you noticed the archives having on other people? I thought that this was really interesting. Just anything that you've learned in working with the archives.

[00.34:05]

MJ: So much. I think the first thing that comes to mind is honestly the impact that the archives have had on students and young folks. That's just the first thing that comes to mind, because it's directly relates to like, I'm- I'm teaching, I'm in the classroom, I'm on campus like that, and I have kids who, you know, are actually, there's a group of young summer campers coming to make zines with us in, in the SC LGBTQ collection next month

[00.34.38]

MM: Is it QT Camp? 

MJ: It is!

MM: Yay! Shout out to QT Camp.

MJ: Yes, shoutout. 

MM: They’re really great

[00:34:45]

MJ: Kyndra Luce and her team are amazing. And, um, I'm really excited because we're gonna make zines. We're gonna, like, get out the markers and glue and everything. But also, this is an opportunity for these young, young folks to spend some time with the exhibit that we're going to be talking about that features eight amazing LGBTQIA+ elders to them. Um, and for them to see themselves reflected in the stories and the history of the, the queer community in, in Charleston and in South Carolina. So for me, that's a big deal. 

[00.35:23]

LD: Yeah, and I can, I can speak for myself as a student about what the- the impact that the archives has had on me. I talked a little bit earlier about how, you know, my experience with queer history before interacting with the archives had been, where they weren't necessarily taken seriously as, like, a historic or cultural study. And we think of queerness a lot as a symptom of modernity, something very contemporary. And of course, the way that we conceptualize gender and sexuality is a very modern thing. But the existence of sexualities and gender expressions and identities that exist outside the traditional hetero-cisgender spectrum is- is so ancient. So I remember, like, my first time taking, like, a tour of the archives and getting in and seeing all the old books. I came across this book that was an early study of gender from, like, 1912, I think, from Britain. And I looked through it and the way that the psychiatrist, uh, in the turn of the century was describing transness and specifically non-binary identities is called, like, the third gender or something. I wish I remembered, like, the author name, but in a way that was empathetic and very serious and was discussing– with very different vocabulary– ideas that are contemporary to us that we are extremely familiar with, you know. It made me really understand that my experiences as a trans person are so old, and the way that that exists within culture and within a historic location can be vastly different. But I'm not the first to deal with it, and I won't be the last. And knowing that, like, thinking about those- those kids coming in from camp, like when I was, I was like a tween and stuff. Queerness and transness were like whispers on the wind, you know, not something you could really say out loud. Uh, and so knowing that that was something that people had pursued successfully and happily for all of time, it would have had a big impact on me. And it, you know, even as, like, a 20 year old when I- when I was in the archives the first time, it did have a big impact on me. 

[00.37:46]

MJ: I witnessed it. And that- actually when Leo and I were prepping for, like, talking about these questions on Friday, that's the first thing that came to mind for this impact. To answer this impact question is just like seeing Leo go through and move through that little– well, it was more than a pamphlet. It's it's a book.

LD: It's a book. 

[00.38:07]

MJ: It's a- it's a full book. A hardcover.

MM: Ooh

MJ: It was really just- I am very grateful to have been in the space. 

[00.38:18]

MM: That's so special. Thank you for the vulnerability too. And Leo, I love everything that you said about that. I, and especially in terms of impact like this, is we're seeing our history and it- it really reinforces, like, queer people have been here and we always will exist. And also kind of touching on that part where you're talking about how it's seen as, like, such a modern thing. It's like, “oh, it's a trend. You know, being queer is like the thing now;” that's- people just- it's more accepted now. These people have always existed. And of course, again, they always will. But it's because we get to see our history and know that, like, this has been happening. This is just part of human nature and having access to that, it's so, it is very impactful. And especially, like, Leo, your story, I think that that really illustrates it well. 

[00.39:09]

LD: Yeah. In my, in my primary source set of queer authorship before the 1980s, we have a lot of these pulp fiction novels, these small paperback books that were, like, 50 cents. And at the time, there were a lot of restrictions on what could be published. You know, so if homosexuality does occur, it must be presented as a negative. So you could talk about it. It's just the homosexual couple could not end up together at the end. So they would either have to separate or, if they stayed together, one of the partners would have to die. So a lot of the time, that's what would happen in these stories, is that one of the partners passes away, or that they, uh, breakup at the end or something. But these people were so dedicated to presenting these stories, having that representation, even when it was deeply imperfect, that they really were trying- it's like so much struggle so that these, these little tiny paper books would slip through the cracks and, and mean something to somebody. Sometimes they just straight up disobeyed the rules, which is something that can be very meaningful and important as well. 

[00.40:21]

MJ: Another thing I just- that came to mind listening to, you know, Leo reflect on his experience with the 1912 item and just being like, oh, wow, this was like five generations ago iis that the archive sort of, generally speaking, can also be violent there. You know, there are intentional and very harmful erasures that have occurred in the archive. And, you know, what we're trying to do here is repair some of those harms. And, and so it can- it's very joyful work. But it's- also there are moments where, um, there are griefful moments that that we also experience in working in the archive. 

[00.41:01]

LD: Yeah. In the turn of the century in Germany, there was a big psychological and sociological effort into studying and documenting, uh, a gender difference. And that's where, like, the earliest scientists and researchers really started to care for these people. And a lot of that disappeared because it was destroyed in the Second World War. And that was like an intentional and violent destruction. The loss of these things is something that we also have to contend with, and that it makes it even more important for us to keep them around. 

[00.41:40]

MM: yeah, for sure. And, you know, it's obviously not all sunshine and rainbows, but, you know, every- every rose has its thorn. 

[00.41.48]

MJ: The cultural, the pop- pop song references in that sentence are just highly amazing.

MM: Nothing was intentional. That's just the first thing that came to mind, but 

MJ: sunshine, llollipops and rainbows. 

[00.42:02]

MM: I guess kind of going more into the sunshine and rainbows. Do we want to talk about the Portrait Project? This is the fun stuff. Um, and I was lucky enough to get a tour right when, right when it kind of opened. This is so cool. And I'll- I'll kind of let them take it away, but, um, just give us an introduction of the project. 

[00.42:20]

MJ: Okay. So the SC LGBTQ+ Portrait Project is the first major exhibit installed in Special Collections that focuses on the lives and impacts of LGBTQIA+ community leaders, artists, educators, and intellectuals. Since the LGBTQ+ Collection was established. Again, that was less than ten years ago. So this is a really big deal because Special Collections has, you know, large, large scale exhibits curated up there all the time. But this is the first one for us. 

[00.42:54]

LD: The project is eight portraits and curatorial materials from collections of the subjects on the third floor of Addlestone Library 9 to 5. And we can give curatorial tours upon requests. 

[00.43:08]

MM: This is amazing. From personal experience, the tour is so cool and you get to see things and it's- it's also, like, personal because y'all can talk about, like, the process of creating it, of course, but it's just- oh my gosh, it's so cool. And you can't just describe it, like, you have to come and see it. It's really, really cool. How did this originate? Where was the seed planted? How did it come about? 

[00:43:28]

MJ: Well, I think, you know, we've been consistently striving towards more outreach, more amplification and more advocacy for the past couple of years. And this feels like a really, you know, sort of like the next step along the way. But I think, you know, maybe Leo and I can share a little bit more about each of the individuals portrayed. And because their stories are amazing and, again, teaser for coming to see the real deal. And then we can talk about how, how we decided to do this. 

LD: Yeah

MM: Yeah for sure. Go for it.

[00.44:01]

LD: Some people we mentioned already, just because they're so cool, we can't not talk about them. But there is, in a chronological order, John A. Ziegler, who owned and operated the Book Basement with his partner Edwin Peacock, on College Way

MJ: 9 College Way

[00.44:17]

MM: It's the blue Communication building

LD: Oh, yeah. And then there's Mary Jo Smith Fetzer, who was an artist and graphic designer, as well as a television personality on children's programming and also lived with her partner, M.E. Van Dyke. Dawn Langley Simmons, who we talked about earlier, first trans woman to have a public gender reassignment surgery in South Carolina and part of the first legal interracial marriage in South Carolina. Miss Linda Ketner 

[00.44:50]

MJ: Miss Linda Ketner is the first openly gay person in South Carolina to run for Congress in 2008, and she almost was very close to winning, actually. But she is also the co-founder of the Alliance For Full Acceptance in South Carolina Equality and is there's so much more we could say about Linda Ketner. 

[00.45:11]

MM: I'm going to jump in. 

MJ: Do it

MM: Linda is awesome. I haven't had the- the honor of meeting her in person yet, but I'm actually a Ketner-Crunelle scholar. And so yeah, she's done so much for the queer community on campus, especially with 9.5 Glebe and the Archives and, I mean, just so much here. She founded the scholarship and then also Tanner Crunelle. So thank you. Thank you, Linda and Tanner. Um, yeah. Linda Ketner is awesome. 

[00.45:39]

MJ: And the portrait that Leo drew of her is stunning. Um, we also have John Martin Taylor portrayed. John Martin Taylor was, um– is– excuse me, John Martin Taylor is a culinary historian and really prolific food writer and cultural- cultural writer, and operated a cookbook store at 30 Pinckney Street in Charleston for over a decade called Hoppin John's. So we've got John Martin Taylor. We also have Africa Brooks, also known as- born as Bryan Alston Seabrook, who is an iconic and immensely talented drag queen who is on the local scene in the 70s and 80s and is the first person of color, Black person, to win the Miss Gay Charleston title in 1979 as Glinda the Good Witch in The Wiz. Last two is, next to last is Lynn Dugan, who we mentioned a little bit earlier. Lynn, you know, was a New York born leader and advocate who was the founder of the the first pride parade in Charleston in 2010. And then last but certainly not least, is Regina Duggins, who's, uh, Black lesbian, founder of Charleston Black Pride, poet and educator, and a really inspiring community leader. 

[00.47:00]

MM: So many fantastic people and honestly hearing their stories is- is so fun. Also, oh my gosh, it's the portraits that Leo made of them. Absolutely incredible. And just also like the setup of everything. Oh my gosh, you- you have to go and see it in person. I'm jumping back and forth. But what was the process like of choosing who to highlight? Because I imagine that that was difficult. 

[00.47:23]

LD: Yeah. The main thing that really challenged us and that we wanted to focus on was we wanted to make sure that we had the archival materials to support their- their portrait in the exhibit. The presence of physical materials in the archives, along with their collection, made it possible for us to do like a full and well-rounded exhibit. And there were some challenges with this, with some individuals that we didn’t end up choosing. There's Africa, Miss Africa Brooks and Regina Duggins. Regina Duggins’s was a pretty easy fix because we were in community with her. So we just 

MJ: gave her a call

LD: gave her a call with, like, “can you give us some stuff?” And she's like, “yeah.”

[00.48:00]

MJ: But also she was like, “no, the most important thing to me are people and in my community. So I don't have a ton of things.” But she still sent over just iconic pictures like that. But yeah, I got through Dr. Duggins and she's amazing.

[00.48:15]

LD: Give Regina Duggins’s is oral history a listen. She has a really, really exceptional life story, and I couldn't- I couldn't capture it fully in our exhibit. So you gotta give it a listen to- to hear it from the horse's mouth. We wanted to have a focus on intersectionality, having people of color and trans people, as well as people who have various experiences and careers. Everyone in the exhibit is really there for a different reason. 

[00.48.43]

MM: Nice. And also in terms of oral history, if there's any- any materials, go and see if they're in the show notes. I'm not sure how that works, but we'll figure it out. 

MJ: Amazing 

[00.48.55]

MM: Kind of going back, tell us, like, the birth of the project. 

[00.48.59]

MJ: All the way back to the fall of 2025. I saw how talented Leo is. Honestly, I was like, this is- and we were also sort of talking about our, you know, quote unquote work plan so that, you know, so the things that we wanted to accomplish in the archives over the course of Leo's internship and this- this came to mind. It was unfolding from there.

[00.49:27]

LD: Yeah. Why not? Why not do something beautiful and fun? 

MM: Yeah. 

LD: With our nerdy, nerdy, nerdy work. 

[00.49:33]

MM: I think it's so cool combining. I mean, Leo, your talent, I think, like, I need a minute here because Leo is one of the most talented people I know.

MJ: Boop boop boop.

MM:  He's covering his face right now. Yeah. Um, I, I mean, especially over the years, I've seen, like, so much of his work, and it's just- he'll come home to the apartment with, like, this huge painting, and it's just like, why is it in our apartment? It should be in a museum. I don't- It's- it's truly so incredible. He has some really great work and. Yeah, I think it's- it's so cool. And like just combining that with, I mean the, the archival material and also creating something new out of it too. And I just, I think that is so cool. I love it so much. 

[00.50:14]

LD: And it was a real gift to to get the opportunity to combine my passions for art and my passion for history into one thing.

[00.50:21]

MM: Yeah. And I guess this- this is a segue into one of my other questions. Um, Leo, can you talk about your process in creating the portraits? And, I don't know, were there any, like, challenges that you faced in doing them? Can you talk about that a little bit for us? 

[00.50:38]

LD: Yeah, let's get into it.

LD: So I guess the first, first part of the process, which we are you to talk about a little bit, was choosing who to to to document, who to highlight in that that decision kind of came down to who do we have the materials for, whose narrative do I find compelling and valuable to uplift like this? Who's, you know, filling in the spots of stories that have been historically overlooked. And then there's kind of the practical archival choices that went along with getting my materials. We were talking about whether we wanted to do drawings or paintings, and we ended up choosing drawings for kind of the practical reason that paintings are- take a long time and are difficult to store. So because- because my drawings are going to be a part of the archives, we want something that is going to fit into those big old manila boxes easier. We wanted to use acid free paper and UV filter glass to make sure that-

MJ: framing. 

MM: Ooh

[00:51:37]

LD: Yeah, we wanted to make sure that it's our archival standard, it’s -it’s a high enough quality that it can stick around for a long time. 

MJ: To last forever. 

LD: Yeah. Which I usually love to use the, the worst materials. 

[00.51.51]

MM: And I think like that's really cool because you, you get to choose, like, what will last the best and then you, you make it easier for yourselves. So, duh!

MM: We're jumping a little bit back to the impact part. But, like, for this project in particular, what kind of impact do you want it to have on viewers and people who- who see this?

[00.52:09]

LD: My main intention artistically with the exhibit was to combine the art and the materials of the collection to make the lives of these people tangible to the viewers. A lot of times with archival collections, with this kind of historical stuff, even with art, to an extent things can feel really distant. And that's not the case. Even for those who- who, like John A. Ziegler, who- who, you know, fought in World War II, whose lives are further back than ours temporally, the realness of their lives, of their experiences in Charleston and on earth is, is important, was important for me to really highlight. And I think that the- the ephemera that they left behind, their notecards and their diaries combined with the portraits to me, makes me really feel like I can see their humanness in full, in three dimension. And that was really important to me. 

[00.53:10]

MJ: And you've added to the representation of their lives in the archives. Also, I just, you know, we need to take up as much space as we possibly can right now. And so all six of the windows in Special Collections are filled with materials from the LGBTQ+ Collections, where, you know, really like, you know, speaking of intentionality– being intentional and how visible this particular project is– we want to reach as many people as possible and to demonstrate that, again, we're here, we're doing the work, and we hope to keep doing it for as long as we possibly can. So that's that's one of my, one of my hopes for how, you know, how this exhibit falls out.

[00.53.58]

MM: Yeah. And how can we support you in doing that? 

[00.54:01]

MJ: Come visit! 

LD: Come see us!

MJ: Yes. Come see the exhibit. Come use the archives. You know, one of the things, um, that, you know, if we can make people feel more comfortable coming to the reading room that I really hope to see happen is that people spend some time with, you know, whatever collection or story that they, they might uncover and then go and disseminate and share what they learn so that, you know, we can use this knowledge and the stories that we have in our archives to push back against censorship and book banning and things of that nature. Um, it's all- it's all a possibility using- using archival materials, it's evidence, y'all. Like, the- that's what, you know, um, you know, to get, like, a little sort of jargon-y, the archives are the evidence of, uh, cultural, social, economic and more existence; it’s how we keep memory and how we, you know, shape our decision making in the future, in the present. And so using the things that we learn in the archives can absolutely make a difference in how we- how we move in the present.

[00.55:12]

MM: Yes, oh my gosh, of course. And the project is viewable until October, right? 

[00.55:18]

MJ: Yes. The exhibit is up now. It opened on June 1st. 

MM & LD: Happy Pride Month!

MJ: Yes! And then, um, it's going to be up through the middle of October, which is LGBTQ+ History Month. Um, and in the middle of October, our friends in the Jewish Heritage Collection will be installing an exhibit. So we get to take up space all summer long

MM: Yay!

MJ: and into the semester. So I hope anybody listening will come through and check it out, either the exhibit or the reading room. 

[00.55.48]

MM: Yeah. And I think this is also like a bucket list thing if you're- especially if you're a student here at CofC, I think that the archives, even just visiting it, should be a bucket list thing. There's so many things in the library, like, that people haven't seen or haven't used, and I think that that's definitely one of them. And I- it does kind of go back to the fear and, like, “the archives, ooh.” Like it's- it's something that I shouldn't touch. 

[00:56:10]

MJ: You know, the one cool thing that I sort of wanted to add in about the LGBTQ+ collection is that, you know, we're actively queering the way that Special Collections does its work. So we are documenting and we're collecting things that are somewhat non-traditional in nature or can be at least. So in addition to, you know, like the, you know, the, John Martin Taylor's mother's cookbook from back in the day, that's like a very, like, traditional archival document. That is incredible. I mean, we need to make Ma Taylor's ambrosia at some point, but we're also collecting, like, beads and buttons and billboards and t shirts and things that have- that are perhaps more ephemeral in nature, but carry this tremendous cultural significance. And, you know, that's- collecting those things has not always been part of, you know, sort of the traditionally considered archival material. Um, and so, you know, we're we're applying sort of queer sensibilities to everything we do, from collecting to amplifying to all of the things. So don't be afraid. There's there's beads come through. 

[00.57:22]

MM: I love that you mentioned queering. I think that this, it all ties back to Women's & Gender Studies, especially in my mind. But I mean it- yeah, it totally makes sense. And can you, like, give, uh, some kind of definition for queering? I know you can't, like, put it in a box, but, um, what's your best way of explaining that?

[00.57:40]

MJ: I actually do have a definition from one of my favorite queer scholars, archivist-librarians named Alana Kumbier. They say that queering the archive is a theory and practice that applies queer sensibilities to stewarding and understanding history and archives to uncover erased, marginalized, and non-normative histories and stories. And so, you know, that's- I really love Kumbier’s definition of queering the archive. It's- it's a verb. You know, we're we're we're doing this. It's an action. We're invested.

[00.58:12]

MM: Perfect, thank you. You were so prepared. I should expect nothing less, though. This is kind of more fun, but can you guys talk about, like, working with each other, what that looks like, how that experience has been?

[00.58.24]

MJ: A joy.

LD: Fun.

MJ: Leo has brought- you know, speaking of the genesis of the portrait project, you know, one of the things that in the archives, when working with interns, I always try to kind of like, identify what's special about them. And, you know, Leo has many special things about him. He's blushing so hard. But, but Leo is also somebody that has, um, just a really keen sensibility for understanding and using archives and applying them to, to his work. I don't know, it's a joy. It's an absolute joy.

[00.59:04]

LD: Aw, you guys are being so nice to me. I'm gonna leave. 

[collective laugher]

MJ: Right- right away. 

[00.59:11]

LD: But yeah, it's been it's been such a wonderful opportunity to get to to learn not just about, like, the the process and methodology of archives and about history, maintaining it and making it, but also about, you know, the, the, the invisible labor that people don't see about the, the care that goes into people who, who, who curate our past for us. It's been nice. 

[00.59.39]

MM: Yeah. I mean, it just sounds like- just a great time. I mean, of course, like there's going to be difficulties, but I think like, it sounds like a great experience. And I love both of you. I was looking forward to this for so long. 

[00.59:51]

MJ: Thank you for the invitation, Mallory. This is, like, super great for us to all get together in this tiny little booth and chat about our lives.

[01:00:00]

MM: Yeah, any day. I, I guess my final questions, one of them being- going back to the project, what does it mean to do this kind of project in times like these, and also at CofC and in the lowcountry?

[01:00:17]

LD: It's, I think, very important, you know, both nationally and locally and here at this institution, at College of Charleston, we are seeing and feeling a pushback against queer visibility and honestly, an assertion that queer histories and lives are not worth remembering or protecting. In my time working with the archives have assured me that queer lives and queer work are incredibly valuable and deserving of advocacy, resources and protection, and that even when that work puts you at risk and endangers it can, can be risky and difficult and hard and incremental. Uh, that is, that is the work that is worth doing and protecting. And there's people who are going to work really, really hard at it. But community support always makes it a little bit easier all along the way. 

[01.01:10]

MJ: Can't do it without community. 

LD: Can’t do it. 

MJ: No, no. To paraphrase Audre Lorde, you know, There's- there's no liberation without community. And so, you know, in times like these, it's- it's, you know, really important to be visible in our work and to be unapologetic in our, in our work. Because, you know, what we're doing is, is tremendously important to, again, going back to the- the living nature of this work that's deeply rooted in community. So, yeah.

[01:01:40]

MM: I think that's just the best way to put it. Um, how can listeners get involved in and support the archives? Of course: visiting. Is there anything else?

LD: Yes; advocacy, I know [indechipherable mumbling], But advocating for us being loud and visible in your support for

[01.01.58]

MM: If it’s safe for you; if it’s actually safe.

LD: If it’s safe, yes. Of course, that's very different for very different people. But if you have the ability to let people know that the history and the protection of it, equally and honestly across the board, is something that is valuable to you and to your life, be loud about that. Let people know. 

[01.02:20]

MJ: Please be loud about it and I'll just, you know, say it again. Come visit us. Come, you know, experience the archives and learn from you know, the past and then apply it to your life. But also, I have to mention that we do have a charitable fund that people can give to that supports the work in the archives, primarily by helping us pay interns, amazing interns like Leo. And, you know, we've, uh, hopefully bringing in two additional interns in the fall. Heretofore, the interns were not paid, but that fund helps us to pay interns and so much more. And you can learn more about the archives and what we have and give, give to us or one of our community partners, some of whom include We Are Family, Alliance for Full Acceptance, Charleston Black Pride, and QT Camp. On our website we have a LibGuide so you can go to LibGuides.library.cofc.edu/lgbtq, and that is a research guide that has a ton of information, including primary source sets created by Leo and other students who have labored in the archives with us in the past, like Em Weimer and, so, yeah. 

[1:03:42]

MM: Perfect. Yeah. And again, if we find- if I find a way, we will link things in the show notes. 

MJ: Cool cool cool. 

MM: But yeah, you heard it all. Anything else? 

[1:03:54]

LD: Oh, I just wanted to let you guys know that, um, you're my best friends. And this was actually my birthday party. 

[01.04:00]

MJ: Oh, yeah

MM: Yeah, Leo’s birthday was yesterday!

LD: Yeah, it's my day for the rest of the month. 

[01.04:07]

MM: Happy Pride Month. Happy- happy Leo month. 

MJ: Yeah. 

[01.04:13]

MJ: Thank you, Mal! 

MM: Aw

MJ: we love you, too. This is awesome.

[01.04:17]

MM: Thank you again; thank you for being here. Thank you for doing this. This was amazing. Um, everyone should go support the archives. Go visit the project. See, see all the cool things, hear all the cool stories. 

[01.04:28]

MJ: When the semester starts we'll do Tater Tot Talks again. Come eat tater tots with us!

MM: Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. So, so much fun stuff. Yeah. Thank you both so much. This was a pleasure. 

[01.04:39]

MJ: Thank you. 

[01:04:40]

MM: Before we close out, I want to give a huge thank you to Mary Jo and Leo for taking the time to be guests and for sharing their wisdom with us. Be sure to check out the SC LGBTQ+ Portrait Project on the third floor of Addlestone Library while it's on display until October 9th of 2026. You can also request a guided tour with them by DMing the Special Collections Instagram page at @cofcspeccoll, and also follow them to see more of what they do. The link to their Instagram will also be available in the shownotes. Special thanks to everyone in the Women's & Gender Studies department for the opportunity to be a host again, and for all of their help and guidance throughout this process. Thank you for tuning into this episode of What IFF?, and we'll see you next time.

[1:05:24]

[soft chimes outro music that fades into silence]