Healing Through Books Featuring Bibliotherapist, Emely Rumble, LICSW

This episode features our conversation with Emely Rumble, LICSW, which was live-streamed on December 2, 2025.  

Emely Rumble, LICSW is a distinguished licensed clinical social worker, school social worker, and seasoned biblio/psychotherapist with over 15 years of professional experience. Committed to making mental health services more accessible, Emely specializes in the transformative practice of bibliotherapy.

Rumble is passionate about advocating for the integration of creative arts in psychotherapy, mental well-being, and self-improvement. Emely champions the social model of disability and embraces a neurodiversity-affirming therapeutic approach. Emely’s work has been featured in respected publications such as Parents Magazine, ‘School Library Journal’, Dazed Magazine, Success Magazine, BronxNet News, The Bronx is Reading, Essence Magazine, CNN Health, The New York Times, Bustle Wellness and Therapy for Black Girls among other publications. Her debut book, Bibliotherapy in the Bronx (Row House Publishing, 2025), explores the modality of literature based therapy in healing practice.

In this transformative work, Rumble offers readers an intimate glimpse into her journey as a psychotherapist in the Bronx, where she has spent over 14 years using books to help clients navigate complex emotions, heal from trauma, and find their voices. Through vivid anecdotes and real-world case studies, she demonstrates how literature can serve as a bridge between personal pain and collective healing.

Rich with practical tips, reflective exercises, and book recommendations, Bibliotherapy in The Bronx is a valuable resource for anyone interested in the power of words to change lives. Whether you're a therapist, educator, bibliophile, or simply someone seeking deeper understanding and growth, this book offers a compassionate, culturally affirming guide to the transformative potential of storytelling.

Rumble's work is a testament to the enduring power of books to heal, empower, and liberate. In a time when the world feels increasingly divided, Bibliotherapy in The Bronx reminds us that the stories we tell—and the stories we read—can unite us in our shared humanity.

To learn more about Emely and her work, please visit LiterapyNYC.podia.com.

Find Emely on Instagram: @literapy_NYC

Find Black Writers Read on Instagram: @blackwritersread

Find Black Writers Read online: https://blackwritersread.com/https://blackwritersread.com/

Support Black Writers Read on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/blackwritersread

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

People assume that if you're from the hood, you're not reading, baby. We reading in the hood. I don't know what other people have heard or what's being said, but we be reading. So really the title bibliotherapy in the rocks could be replaced with Springfield, could be replaced with bibliotherapy in Detroit. You know, it's any place that people have a preconceived notion of that might be considered the hood or low resourced, where creativity is thriving because we make do with what we got and we make it happen. This was really also like a reclamation of like, look, we're doing bibliotherapy in the bronze and every hood. You're doing bibliotherapy as a reader who turns to books to find, you know, find yourself, find validation, find joy and pleasure. Like bibliotherapy doesn't belong to anybody, it's for all of us. And we be reading and we be healing. And that was the point.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Hello, and welcome to Black Writers Read. My name is Nicole Young Martin, and I'm the founder, producer, and host of this podcast. Thank you for tuning in for episode 12 of season six of the series. Launched on Juneteenth, 2020. Black Writers Read was created as a platform to showcase, celebrate, and honor the words, work, and traditions of Black writers from across the country, across genres, across experiences, and across the Afghan diaspora. Black Writers Read is a behind-the-scenes conversation into the craft and what it means to create as a black author in today's society. Since starting the series during the summer of 2020, we've hosted almost 100 authors representing 15 plus genres from six countries and 26 states. This episode features our conversation with Emily Rumble, which was live streamed on December 2nd, 2025. Emily Rumble is a distinguished licensed clinical social worker, school social worker, and seasoned bibliopsychotherapist with over 15 years of professional experience. Committed to making mental health services more accessible, Emily specializes in the transformative practice of bibliotherapy. Rumble is passionate about advocating for the integration of creative arts and psychotherapy, mental well-being, and self-improvement. Emily champions the social model of disability and embraces a neurodiversity affirming therapeutic approach. Emily's work has been featured in respective publications such as Parents Magazine, School Library Journal, Days Magazine, Success Magazine, Bronx Net News, The Bronx's Reading, Essence Magazine, CNN Health, The New York Times, Bustle Wellness, and Therapy for Black Girls, among other publications. Her debut book, Bibliotherapy in the Bronx, explores the modality of literature-based therapy and healing practice. Released on April 29, 2025 by Row House Publishing, Bibliotherapy in the Bronx is a groundbreaking exploration of the healing power of literature in the lives of marginalized communities. Drawing from our personal and professional experiences, Rumble masterfully intertwines storytelling with therapeutic insights to reveal how reading can be a potent tool for self-discovery, emotional transformation, and social change. In this transformative work, Rumble offers readers an intimate glimpse into her journey as a psychotherapist in the Bronx, where she has spent over 14 years using books to help clients navigate complex emotions, heal from trauma, and find their voices. Through vivic anecdotes and real-world case studies, she demonstrates how literature can serve as a bridge between personal pain and collective healing. Rich with practical tips, reflective exercises, and book recommendations, Bibliotherapy in the Bronx is a valuable resource for anyone interested in the power of words to change lives. Whether you're a therapist, educator, bibliophile, or simply someone seeking deeper understanding and growth, this book offers a compassionate, culturally affirming guide to the transformative potential of storytelling. Rumble's work is a testament to the enduring power of books to heal, empower, and liberate. In a time when the world feels increasingly divided, bibliotherapy in the Bronx reminds us that the stories we tell and the stories we read can unite us in our shared humanity. To learn more about Emily and her work, please visit her website at litherapy nyc dot po-dia.com. That is L-I-T-E-R-A-P-Y NYC dot podia dot com. Happy almost birthday, Babylotherapy in the Bronx. I wanted to make sure that this hit the audio podcast before your one-year birthday out into the world. Emily, Emily, Emily, Emily, Emily. Ooh, Emily, you are the homie. Revisiting this episode has been such a beautiful experience. I love that we get to share oxygen together, this world together, and more importantly, I love that we live so close to one another. So I look forward to meeting you. Y'all, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope y'all gain so much from this interview. The biggest takeaway for me is just how genuinely authentic Emily is. And that is a very special gift for anyone who works in this particular field. I am actually glad that she took a moment. Well, it's more than a moment to write a book, but she took time out of her schedule with her very intense job to document her process so that other people can incorporate it into their worlds as well. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode, and I hope that you'll enjoy our conversation as much as I did.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Nicole, I'm holding back tears, child. That was such a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Like you, like I like I just how much you love the community and the culture. Like, just and how I love how even today there was a couple of posts you made on Instagram, just how you were nerding out, celebrating a recent release of a publication, and just like the time and the care that you take when you even curate your posts. You like set the books up in a beautiful setting. It looks like you do really nice lighting and you do really good captioning and amazing like music. Like, there's just there's so much beauty in the care that you take in your work. So far.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Well, I feel so cared about and cared for hearing you say that. You know, there's all this talk on social about like, is is Bookstagram and Book Talk dead? You know, nobody's reading book reviews anymore. So just to hear you say that, like you read the captions and you appreciate the music, right? And the photos is like that feels like a hug to any book creator because it's it's hard work, but we love our books, right? And you do the same work with literary activism here at Black Matters Free. So I'm just happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yes, and I am so excited to not only hear you read, but talk more about the books. I'm gonna turn over to you to read, and I'll be back for chat. So happy reading.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Now I want to make sure that I um Nicole told me 10 minutes of reading, y'all. So I'm going to read from what many people have told me is their favorite chapter, especially former students of mine when I used to be a school counselor, um, because I I take that as high praise. So this is an excerpt from chapter five poetry therapy, a biblical therapy in the Bronx. Listen, what do you hear in your stillness in a moment of deep feeling? What have you heard from your innermost self? Who did you turn to? I John Cook in Poetry as Spellcasting, edited by Tamiko Bayer, Destiny Hempel, and Elizabeth White. We now enter the unique intervention of poetry therapy, a distinct branch of therapeutic literature. While bibliotherapy often relies on narrative structures with a clear beginning, middle, and end, poetry therapy takes a different approach. Through poetry therapy, we form deeper connections with the text and ourselves. Poetry's brevity and ambiguity invites readers to fill in the gaps with our own experiences and emotions. As we'll explore in this chapter, poetry therapy offers a unique path to emotional catharsis and healing by capturing moments, engaging our senses, and using literary devices to reveal our inner landscapes. Unlike stories, which provide structured plots with a beginning, middle, and end, poetry allows us to sit with a moment and stay present in it. The brevity and intensity of poetry allows us to revisit and reexamine significant instances in our lives, fostering a deeper connection with ourselves and facilitating the emergence of suppressed emotions. Through the power of poetry, we can find solace, understanding, and healing. And the beauty of it is that two people can read the same poem and come away from it with entirely different interpretations. The heart of poetry as therapy is about what it specifically speaks to you. Psychologist professor and poetry therapist Nicholas Mazza writes about the importance of asking our clients what does it mean for you? Whether we are reading a poem in its entirety or simply reflecting on a stanza or choice of words, the client's interpretation of what they are reading is the most important and illuminating element in their healing practice. By inviting the client to share their personal reactions to poetry, we offer them an important element of control in the therapy room. This is a powerful tool to decenter the therapist and center the client's voice and experience. It's all about decolonizing therapy. Come on, somebody. The clinician is there to provide a sense of support and security for the client while remaining interested first and foremost in the client's interpretation. This approach promotes early engagement in the therapy process and fosters the client's verbalization and self-expression. The case of Annie, hip hop therapy. Hip hop, born from the hearts and minds of some of the most marginalized communities, is an art form crafted by often unsung poets. The lyrics, artists, curate, and the ways they perform and recite the magic of their words as testimony provide a multi-sensory experience that cues great opportunities for healing. I sometimes meet resistance to incorporating a poem into a session, but as a bibliotherapist in the Bronx, I've never had a client say no to incorporating hip-hop lyrics that speak to them. The impact of hip-hop lyrics as a therapeutic tool was central during my work with Annie, a 14-year-old youth in foster care with a history of being a flight risk. Having been shuffled between social workers, Annie harbored understandable resentment toward yet another newcomer to her life. Her journey into the foster care system commenced at the tender age of 10, marked by her parents' struggles with drug addiction and their inability to provide proper supervision. Before Annie's case landed on my desk, she had experienced two potential adoptions that ultimately fell through, allegedly due to her perceived noncompliance with her service plan. As I embarked on getting to know Annie, her profound affinity for hip-hop was clear. She possessed an encyclopedic knowledge of Nas's lyrics from every track on the seminal album, Ilmatic. A radiant smile graced her face when she reminisced about this album's significance and connection with her father. In her cherished memories, the album served as the soundtrack to her last recollection of her father's sobriety, a time when they danced together in the living room. Recognizing the profound emotional resonance that hip-hop held for Annie, I decided to include her passion for this art form into our therapy sessions as a poetry therapy intervention. With hopeful anticipation, I asked her to craft a haiku dedicated to her father, who was then undergoing rehabilitation. In this instance, the power of hip-hop transcended mere musical preference. It became a conduit for Annie to connect with her emotions and navigate the complexities of her past. The prompt was think about Nas's song, It Ain't Hard to Tell, and write a haiku about what is not hard to tell for you about the truth of your life experience. Here's what she wrote. It ain't hard to tell. Adultification, the loss of childhood innocence, the force of life being thrust upon us, even when circumstances seem so unfair. That's what the taiku is about. I reflected to Annie that I wondered what it is like to be a young girl who feels forced into anything. How does she manage the interruption? How does a girl become a woman before she is ready? How does the world treat a girl, particularly a black girl, who navigates life with the maturity of a woman, even if it's false? When Annie began to cry, I knew that some part of what I said and what she wrote was opening a gateway for her tears to flow. I sat in silence and waited until she was ready to continue our process. The silence felt like it lasted forever. In time she began to sob, to scream, and to shout. It's not fair. All that was left for me to do was to hold her as she continued to release and to let her know that I agreed. It's not fair. No child should be forced into becoming anything or anyone. Every child deserves to go at their own pace, to be loved and provided for, to have their needs met so they can become who they are meant to be in this world. By the time our session was over, Annie had made some deep connections between being a young person in the foster care system, an African-American girl in the United States raising herself, and a vulnerable youth navigating trauma. Nas employs various metaphors in this song to emphasize his lyrical prowess and the depth of his rhymes. He compares himself to a jazz player, a wizard, and a novelist to highlight his unique talent as an MC. In this session, Annie was able to compare herself to every other black girl who has ever felt forced to reconcile the expectation of becoming a woman or being adultified long before they felt ready. The essence of poetry capturing moments. Unlike conventional books, where stories unfold over time, poetry is a snapshot of emotion, an instant frozen in words. Poetry distills complex emotions and experiences into concise verses that capture a single moment, a fleeting feeling, or a profound insight. This unique characteristic of poetry allows readers to dive deep into our emotions, revisiting and re-examining pivotal moments in our lives. One of my favorite poems to incorporate into poetry therapy is Diving Into the Wreck by Adrian Rich. Rich was a prominent American poet, essayist, and feminist icon whose literary contributions left an indelible mark on the landscape of 20th century American literature. Her style as a poet is characterized by bold and unapologetic explorations of complex themes, including gender, sexuality, politics, and identity. Rich's poetry often employs vivid and evocative language, making extensive use of metaphors and imagery to convey her ideas and emotions. These lines always resonate with my clients no matter what walk of life they come from. I came to explore the wreck. The words are purposes, the words are maps. I came to see the damage that was done and the treasures that prevail. Doing the work of healing while self-reflecting and bringing our awareness to painful memories and experiences that have impacted us feels like exploring the wreck. This is also a great metaphor to explain why it takes time to see outcomes in psychotherapy where there is a wreck, there's lots of damage, there's wounding. It's best not to dig, but to go slow, to sit with and observe the wreckage, to give ourselves time to process the things that will never be the same, to allow reality to settle in and grasp the helping hand that is offering some respite and assistance toward the repairs that are needed. We cannot access words when we are in shock after a traumatic event, and we shouldn't be in a rush to. The nature of poetry therapy is to provide us with access to the moment and to the feelings that come up as a result. Then, through the poet's lens, when we are ready, willing, and able, we can begin to explore the damage at the pace that feels right for us. At this point, we can consider that even though the wreck of personal tragedy is upon us, treasure still exists in the possibility of what can be found at the site of our wounding. Girl.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Okay, can I just tell you which one I'm so happy that you read that particular section? Because it just highlights how brilliant you are now.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Thank you. It's hard to read. That's the first time I didn't cry. Every time I talk about Annie, I cry. So that's progress. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

So, first off, thank you for sharing Annie's story and in the way that you did. I love that, at least from what I'm interpreting, that you collaborate with your clients as a provider. And that is something that I've seen like with medical professionals that needs to happen. Like people in the profession, it feels like they don't honor us as people, and they don't honor us as people who know ourselves. And for you to honor a teenager who many people say, Oh, children don't know who they are, and blah, blah, blah, blah, and collaborating with Annie on what she needed and saying, okay, what language speaks to you, and how can we use that to get to the root of your healing? I'm like, yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yes, because if there's one population that is not gonna let you put words in their mouth, is teenagers. Yay! Teenagers know what they have to say, and if they don't know, you better not try to say it for them because they will let you know quick. Like, no, that's not what I meant. So I love how you made that connection between helping her decide, okay, how are you most comfortable accessing language and story, and then weaving that into a therapeutic alliance that can support her process. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah, and then also, too, I love how you decolonize poetry because one of the things that I talk about in my class, and poetry was one of the first forms that I began writing with, is poetry is one of those things where it's like, oh, you have to learn like the structure and all these other things and format for it to be able to be respected as poetry. And you're like, poetry is rap. You don't even, you don't even mystify it. You're just like, poetry is this, we use Nas.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

There you go. There you go. There you go. And I do want to say, like, for my uh colleagues who are licensed hip hop therapists, you know, this is a hot topic because they really do feel like hip-hop therapy is its own form of therapy. But for me, because I am a bibliotherapist, you know, for me, I'm always gonna refer to hip-hop lyrics as poetry because, and also being from the Bronx, right? Like this is an art form that so many of us grew up with that we learned as a form of resistance and self-celebration and celebration of who we are, where we come from. So I I truly believe that hip-hop, you know, therapy and poetry therapy is like two twins, fraternal twins.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yeah, and I was wondering if you were from the Bronx. So thank you for mentoring that, which I also, before I go into the questions, want to shout out the fact that you went back home after your education to do your practice. Yeah, and that's that's something I wanted to do. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way, but I'm glad that you were able to. Like that is huge.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Well, I want to clarify and say I was born in Connecticut. Oh, my grandmother passed when I was 14, and then I entered foster care, and then I hopped around. So that's how I ended up in New York, honestly. But yeah, I I always say, like, for me, though I wasn't born in the Bronx, it always felt like home because that's the first place where I really grew roots and I stayed. And I wouldn't be the social worker that I am without my community, because that's where I went through grad school, that's where I interned for both of my internships.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Why I built literacy, so you know it's really integrated in that way into who I am as a therapist, and it's something because you're I've lost count with how many folks I've hosted who the Bronx they have roots in the Bronx. It's something about like the y'all are just so authentic. Like, I just I can't even encapsulate it, but it's just like y'all are just so real, and it feels like which this is an aside question. Like before we jump into the other questions, like the Bronx, from what I know it, and I had an opportunity to take a tour with someone who grew up in the Bronx. This was years ago, and it was an amazing tour, and major musician. It's something why is the Bronx such a special place? I know this is like it's not a it's a very generic question, but it's such a special place.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

I've never been to the West Coast, so like when people ask me that question, to me, it feels so uniquely special because of the range of diversity in our communities, you know, and because the Bronx is, you know, a lot of people will say that the Bronx is the most forgotten borough in terms of um just like historically, right? We we used to say the Bronx is burning because the Bronx was burning, the trash that's left on the streets, the lack of trees and flowers, unless you're in the botanical gardens or Riverdale. So, like there's just a feeling of like toughness that you get when you come from the Bronx. That's just you don't have a choice but to be authentic. If you're not, you're not gonna survive, right? Like, in order for you to um be from the Bronx in the Bronx to build community in the Bronx, like it's I always feel like it's the burrow of the people. Like there's there's a lot of struggle, but there's so much creativity in that struggle. Like we may, some may say we have fewer resources, but we're so resourced spiritually, emotionally, and in terms of like community care, right? Like, I miss that so much now that we've moved to Western Mass. Like, I miss that being able to ask my vecina next door, hey, you got some extra rice, or like you mind watching the kids for me right quick, so I can run to the bodega or the bodegu telling me, Oh, yeah, don't worry about it. You could pay me next week when you get paid, you know, take the sugar, like that kind of um just love for people, like it's really bronze bread, in my opinion. I feel like really all of New York City is that way because we are so close in proximity to one another, and like there is no 60 degrees of separation. And like people know if you're from there, they know you. If you're not, they're like, who's this person? Oh, it's a tourist, right? So there's just this sense of like we know our people and you know, we look out for each other. So that's a very Bronx New York kind of vibe.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah, and every time I take the train in New York, because I try to go down like two or three times a year because of theater, the Bronx is like the first stop you, like the first place you see on the train. And I always get excited because I'm like, I'm near my destination, and so I'm just like, I don't know. Yeah, the Bronx is such a special place for me because of what it's done for the culture. Yes, like like for real.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yeah, there's no place like it. And it's so funny because coming to Springfield, like when we first moved here, I didn't have my car, so I was taking Ubers everywhere. Everybody, all my Uber drivers, Nicole, were Puerto Ricans from the Bronx, and it cracked me up because I'm like, I know Holyoke is many Puerto Rico off the islands, but I didn't realize that. So was Springfield. Yep, like it's heavy Puerto Rican from New York City or from Florida. There seems to be like a connection between these cities, but yeah, it's it's a special place. I miss home every day. I'm looking forward to being able to go back soon.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Oh, and I hope that Springfield has embraced you. I've worked I've worked in Springfield before and I now work in Holyoke. But I hope that Springfield has embraced you because Springfield for me is a special place. I'm originally from Detroit, and Springfield reminds me so much of the east side of Detroit. Like the east side of Detroit, even though I grew up on the west side of Detroit, the east side of Detroit is like this like rugged, like how to put it, we struggle but we strive type of mentality. And it's like we make do with what we have and we remain hopeful. It's just something very special about I almost before I moved in with my now husband and got married, that's how I ended up in Windsor. I was looking to buy property in Springfield.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Like Springfield is such a special place, and there's so many artists here, like there's so many creative. Springfield really invests in their artists, there are artistic fellowships, like there's some really great things happening out here. So I've been so I feel like I've been welcomed with a lot of love and a lot of warmth. And my hubby is from Springfield, born and raised. So this is like his founding ground. So it's cool to like come back to these past versions of ourselves because I went to Mount Holyoke, um, and that's how we met. He came to a party. Yes! You know, that was the love connection. So now it's like we're bringing our kids back to our origin story. So that's been kind of fun.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

That's cute. So, speaking of origin story, I want to start the official part of the conversation with what is the origin story of Bible therapy in the Bronx? Why the title and why this book right now?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

I love that question. Goodness, there's so much that I could say there. Well, first of all, why the title? Because like people assume that if you're from the hood, you're not reading, baby. We reading in the hood. I don't know what other people have heard or what's being said, but we be reading. So really the title, bibliotherapy in the bronze, could be replaced with Springfield, could be replaced with bibliotherapy in Detroit. You know, it's any place that people have a preconceived notion of that might be considered the hood or low resource, where creativity is thriving because we make do with what we got and we make it happen. And there's so much beauty in our communities. Um, so I really wanted the title to specifically um describe location because I felt like it was important as a therapist, but also as just like a black Puerto Rican woman, you know, from the hood, for people to know that yes, this is a professional resource in many ways. If you're curious about bibliotherapy as an intervention, absolutely you'll walk away from this book with some tools. And also, this is a love letter to black librarianship, to the contributions of those who've done amazing work in this field, but are not a part of the credentialing programs and the history that we talk about when we talk about bibliotherapy. You know, you do a Google search now in bibliotherapy, you might come up with a few black librarians' names, but for the most part, back in the day, you research bibliotherapy, it's gonna give you the names of like stoic philosophers and people in England who are doing this. And so this was really also like a reclamation of like, look, we're doing bibliotherapy in the Bronx and every hood. You're doing bibliotherapy as a reader who turns to books to find, you know, find yourself, find validation, find joy and pleasure. Like bibliotherapy doesn't belong to anybody, it's for all of us, and we be reading and we be healing, and that was the point.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yes, which I love because like that's the thing. Like, I hate when they say, Oh, black and brown people don't read. And I'm like, I my parents told me I started reading at two, and I read some of the most interesting things as a child. I read periodicals and I read magazines.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

I love that, I love that so much. I would have been geeking out with you as a kid. My thing was the Britannica Encyclopedias. I had the whole set. My grandma got me the whole set. Other than the Bible, those were the only books that she would let me like own and have because she felt like, okay, this is like a resource.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

And also, too, thank you for shouting out librarians. Like, I love like when I was working on my dissertation, I love going to librarians and asking them, like, help. I have this thread in my lit review, I don't know what I'm doing. And they're like, they geek out in terms of they sure do.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

They have like an inner Rolodex that's just like, oh yeah, I'm thinking of a book that was published in 1965. Not sure if it's out of print, but let me go to the archives. Listen, Iberians are angels, they really are.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yeah, super heroes, and also just libraries are such special places. Like I remember as a child, and our nearest library was a little bit of a walk away, but I remember my mom and I going and just the programming that the librarians would do to bring children together. And the library is such a special place. So thank you for honoring that.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, I don't know where I would have been without the public library growing up, you know, like it was a safe place to go after school on the weekends. I remember like, I remember every childhood librarian that I had, my librarian at school and my public librarian in the city. And how much my imagination and my sense of curiosity was like really nourished in those spaces, you know. And I think back to becoming a mother, I had my son in 2018. I had my daughter during the pandemic, but literally like library infant toddler programming saved my life. Your girl was going through it. Postpartum depression, you know, I it was just a lot going on. I remember bringing my son home and I was like, Y'all just gonna let me take this baby? And like my husband got to go to work and I'm gonna be alone with this baby all day. And I was going through it, and I would just go, I'll never forget, every Wednesday at 11, we would go to storytime. And I met so many amazing parents and caregivers there, and it became like a mommy and me bonding thing every week. I just take my kids to the library, and then during the pandemic, the library programming moved to virtual. So even though we couldn't be gathering in person, I was still able to make those connections with other moms and and caregivers um virtually. And honestly, libraries just deserve so much more from us, and we really need to just keep fighting for our libraries. I'm so proud of the ALA for their advocacy in court. We won. Like, there's just I can go on and on about what a library lover I am because really that's my origin story is is the library.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

So, with that said, what is bibliotherapy and why have you integrated it into your practice?

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, so long story short, bibliotherapy is the intentional use of literature. So that could be stories, poems, memoir, um, as a tool for emotional insight, connection, and healing. So this practice is sort of rooted in the belief that reading the right thing at the right time can shift something inside of us. It can help us find language to name what we haven't found the words for yet. Uh, reading and connecting to story helps us normalize our experiences because a lot of times we're so self-conscious, we think we're the only ones. And then you read the story and you're like, oh, this is so validating. It also helps us to expand our emotional vocabulary, to imagine like more possibilities, right, for ourselves. So I started integrating bibliotherapy into my work as a therapist because I started out as a school social worker, and so a lot of my challenge was trying to get my students to come to counseling. And a lot of times it was like, miss, like, I'm not, you know, I don't want nobody to know I have counseling. And so I would just start pushing into the ELA uh classrooms to help teachers make stories come to life. And so for the kids I worked with in schools, you know, books became mirrors when they felt unseen. For the adults that I started to see, even if that was a parent of a student, right? Oh, we should read this book. I think this will help you understand ADHD better or how your child's anxiety is impacting their behavior better, right? So for adults, literature becomes a source of comfort, of clarity, language for trauma, even sometimes just like psychoeducation, right? Like we don't know something, we pick up a book and we learn something. So as a therapist who works creatively, I found out pretty quickly that engaging with literature and story helps to lower our defenses. When somebody is reflecting on a character that they're really invested in rather than directly on themselves, we feel safer to explore these really heavy things that we have to talk about in therapy that are hard to talk about, right? Like shame, grief, identity, relationships. And so I love how engaging with story helps us to go deeper into ourselves, to tap into our imagination, who we are, our history, our culture, our community, especially for those clients who are black, brown, queer, disabled, and neurodivergent. Like we have so much being thrown at us and these like verbal and nonverbal messages that our stories don't matter. And so really being able to connect with folks who are telling the truth and sharing their stories and knowing that you're not the only one is that alone is healing. Just knowing that like there is nothing to be ashamed about, you are not broken. And I think to the point you made earlier, you said something about decolonizing therapy and like the therapist's role in the therapy process. I feel like there is this way that the medical model reinforces that, where the medical model says, like, the patient is sick, the therapist has the tools, and you're gonna come to therapy and be healed. And I just don't believe in that at all. Like, I feel like we are the experts of our life story. And even though we might be going through a mental health struggle or a difficult time, right? Like the answers are inside of us. And so a true therapist who understands use of self and how to engage a client therapeutically um will do so based on the client's needs. And what I love about counseling readers is that most of the time, well, let's be honest, most of the time they'd rather be reading than coming to therapy. But the minute that I say, Well, what's the last book that you read that made you cry? What's the last book that you read that you couldn't put down or that you hated, right? Like now we're tapping into that emotional um ISO principle, like they say in music therapy. You know, when you listen to a song and it's just saying all the right things that you're feeling and you couldn't find the words for, and you're like, Yes, run that back. And then you got that song on rotation. That's when when the therapy gets really, really good. So bibliotherapy is all about the right book at the right time when we need it the most, and how we apply those insights to our life.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Which I love. Oh my gosh, like just talking about how much representation in literature is important. Like one of my absolute favorite stories to tell about my experience as an instructor and professor. I was forced to teach August Wilson's fences, which I have some beef, which which I tell my students that August Wilson, which it's true, he's a he was a brilliant, brilliant writer. And but at the same time, I was just like how he disenters women. I was like, I can't do this. And I was like, I have to teach this, okay. And I tell students, like when I start teaching, I'll tell them like how the books were selected for the syllabus and all these things and my relationship with them. And I'll just be like, yeah, straight up, me and fences ain't about that. And I had a student, I'll never forget him, um, black male immigrant from Jamaica. He was like in his mid-40s. He came up to me after we finished reading Fences, and he was like, Professor, I am Troy. And I was like, wow, okay. And he was just like, This is the first book where I saw myself, I saw my father, I saw my grandfather. And I was just like, right, okay. And so now I have a different perspective on teaching fences. I'm like, yeah, Troy, for folks who don't know, Troy is trifling, please. If you can't watch at least the Denzel Washington Viola Davis film adaptation, Troy is trifling, but when we do deeper readings of it, we understand the circumstances that brought Troy to his trifleness because it was 1950s. He was African American from the South. And when I told, we did the math one time, and I told my students, we were like, this play takes place in the 50s, Troy is in his 50s, he grew up in the South, born in the 1900s. What does that mean? And my students were like, his father was possibly enslaved. Boom! They got it, they got it, and so I love that my students are able to make those types of connections and transformative work for themselves within books.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, yeah. Because I would imagine for somebody saying that they identify with Torius, like you read fences, and now you're really having to unpack your own internalized patriarchy. Yeah, right. Like you say, you see yourself and your father and your grandfather. Oh, so we got some really good bibliotherapy that we could do with that, right? Like I've I've got questions. Now we're gonna do a whole family tree and we're gonna talk about some of these right generational patterns that we're gonna break. So a therapist could do a lot with that, and that's so beautiful. Then not only did he identify that and see himself in the text, but that he could share that with you, right? To be like, wow, like I just made this connection and thank you for like introducing me to this play. That's phenomenal. That's what it's about. That's biblical therapy.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Yes, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

That's simple, that's simple.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yes, this segue so nicely into the next question. So I wanted to ask this question because so I'm not in the discipline, but I'm familiar with it in the fact that I see a therapist who but her training is in psychology. I've had former therapists who were trained in social work. I have former students who are now in social work, and also too, the folks who go into social work specifically typically are people who look like us or people who are from poor socioeconomic backgrounds. And social work is a unique discipline, one that integrates care work. Care work can also be an important component in writing. How did social work as an academic discipline and practice inform the writing process of bibliotherapy in the Bronx?

SPEAKER_01 40:46

No one's ever asked me that. That's such a juicy question. Thank you, Dr. Nicole, with the questions. Okay, so much I want to say about that, especially because a lot of the feedback that my book has gotten from people who are not in the field is like I didn't expect that this was gonna be such a social worky kind of book, which I thought that that would be obvious since I'm a social worker, but I want to say, you know, um, in response to that, and in response to your question, that from social work, I learned that storytelling is political, that people don't heal in isolation, right? That culture, race, our intersectional identities and systems matter. They impact our well-being, they impact our lives. And so all of those truths, not just my personal truths, but the truths of the clients who I've supported, right, guided not just what I wrote in the book, but how I decided to go about writing the book. I didn't want this book to be purely clinical. I didn't want it to be like an academic heavy text. I want it to how can I explain it? Like I wanted more of a balance that was going to honor the voices of the communities that I've served, you know, the the children, the students, the families that I've supported. So um also really central to our training in social work is the knowledge that as a clinician, we always have to hold complexity for people's stories and curiosity, and that we are in other words, like even though we're caregivers, we have counter transference. So like we're we're imperfect as well. And we are played upon spiritually, right? It's an energy exchange, it's an emotional exchange when you're working with someone, especially when they're in pain. And so um I think being especially a school social worker because it's such a dynamic way to do social work and it's such an unpredictable way to do social work, and most of the time you're the only mental health professional in a setting with nobody else who's trained as a mental health clinician, it teaches you a certain sort of like urgency, creativity, and resourcefulness. You know, you're doing like group counseling sessions in the hallway and like pulling kids from lunch. I mean, you got to play it cool because you don't want the kids to be like, I'm not going with the counselors. So I feel like all of those um professional experiences and the lessons that I learned sitting with people as a therapist, you know, when you're sitting with a middle schooler who has no language for their grief, or a parent that's finally putting the pieces together around how they're navigating generational trauma or immigration stress, or maybe even like reenacting that trauma on their child, like you learn to write and speak in ways that reach people where they are. And so I'm really proud of bibliotherapy in the Bronx because I feel like anybody from any walk, whether you're a social worker or not, can pick up this book and really see yourself in these stories, in these case studies. Um, even just in some of the exercises that I share with people who maybe you're not ready to go to therapy, but you want to try bibliotherapy, you enjoy reading, you enjoy expressive writing, you can start with this book, right? You can start sharing your own story, telling your own story, writing your own story, singing your own story. So I think the writing in the book, for me, like it really just echoes the work that I've always done. As a therapist. And so holding people's stories in a way that leaves their dignity intact, in a way that's not judgmental but curious. Of course, always grounded grounded in theory, right? Like I am trained as a psychodynamic, psychoanalytic therapist, but that's not, you know, one thing I will say, I'm not Freudian in my approach. I'm not a blank slate that's coming in. Like that's my training. But what I what I am gonna do is I'm gonna integrate that with who I am, my own intersectional identity, being black, being bodigwa, right? Um, in the Bronx, working with different populations and also like approaching everything with acknowledging that the systems that we interact with shape our mental health and also with cultural humility, because I don't know every damn thing, right? So I feel like care work, the way you so beautifully described it, is it's shown like on every page of this book. And I hope people feel that that like this whole book is social work because through vulnerability, through ethics, through the commitment to write something that's accessible to people and that is actually useful, like that's what it is. That's community care, that's passing the torch down, that's you know, showing clinicians that there is a way to engage in this work that's not carceral, that is honoring who people are and how people move through the world and how they choose to tell their their own story. So that was really the hope. And I'm so glad that you you felt that. And I love this question so much. This might be my favorite question that anybody's asked me.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Oh, that means a lot. And I because I was like, I have to, because social work is just not only such a unique field, but it's a field where a lot of us are in it. And it's so it's also too like an interesting discipline because of that privilege of the expert and like this dynamic between the client and the provider, where it's like the client, even even though they've lived in their bodies, they don't know who they are. And I'm like, no, like, no, no. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

And this is really important too, because like I start the book by sharing about my childhood growing up with my aunt who was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, and she was my babysitter from a really young age. So, like, from a really young age, I had to engage my imagination to cope and to like survive some of the unpredictable nature of the way that I grew up in that house. Um, and so it I had a conversation with D Danielle Thomas, the author of The Day Guy Swammy as Black, and she had the whole interview was about my aunt and how she felt like she understood me more as a therapist based on the way that I write my aunt and seeing my aunt through my eyes. And I feel like that meant so much to me because that's literally how I approach every client that I work with. Like someone who is really struggling with reality orientation, especially for a more um severe diagnosis like paranoid schizophrenia, like you're not gonna get anywhere telling someone who's actively experiencing a delusion or a hallucination that they're they're mistaken. You could go in circles, like, no, you know, you're telling me you see this, no, you don't. You're telling me you hear this, no, you don't. That's not how you treat someone, that's not how you relate to someone, that's not how you care for someone. Someone who is actively psychotic needs to be returned to a state of balance and safety. And so the question is not how do I convince this person that what they see and what they hear isn't real. It's how do I safely connect with this person so that they know that they are not alone in this scary place so that I can slowly right, like show them that care that brings them back to a place of stability. Um, and so I'm really comfortable in that realm of like yes, I'm the therapist, and yes, I have some expertise and training and skills, but ultimately like your life, your inner world, your reality is your own. And I think for a lot of us in social work school, we're not trained in like the skill of sitting with people and being with people, right? Like you can have all the book smarts in the world, but baby, if you don't know how to talk to people, you're not gonna go very far, right? As a clinician, like you have to be able to put people at ease and not in a way that's um rehearsed. Like people know when you're faking it or when you're reading from a script, right? So, like, so much of my journey and and learning how to be a better therapist, and I'm learning every day has been uh this work and bibliotherapy and poetry therapy, and some of these spaces and places where people told me that's not gonna be an effective modality with this population. People with schizophrenia can't, you know, relate to poetry. Like, what? What people who are struggling with reality orientation are perhaps the most poetic, actually. So, like, what if we start there, right? So there's just so much I have to say about that. I'm very passionate about that. I feel another book. We'll see, child, because I'm tired. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

So back to this particular book. I'm already like getting you prepared for your next one. I know, right? Yes. So I love that this book serves multiple functions, including as a textbook for students in the field and for clients, along with the pro um, along with the progress of the book, starting from the origin of bibliotherapy and the role of librarianship. I live next to train track, um, to intersectionality and ending with embracing the gentle path. How does bibliotherapy in the bronze speak to the evolution of the practice of therapy and the role and training that the provider needs to take on, or even the direction that the profession should take?

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Yeah. I think that you know, therapy needs to evolve to be more human, um, more attuned, like more culturally attuned, more imaginative. I think it's really interesting how many people are going to Chat GPT and like generative AI for therapy. It actually says that like maybe we're not doing as well as we thought, building connections with people so that they can feel safe unveiling themselves in therapy. We can't rely solely on manuals and checklists and you know therapeutic assessments. We need tools that help people reclaim their inner world. And I think literature does that. So I really believe, and I'm so passionate about the creative arts therapies. Bibliotherapy is one, but we've got music therapy, dance therapy, drama therapy, right? Like therapy needs to return to narrative because naturally, as human beings, we are story thinkers, we are storytellers. And so I think bibliotherapy and engaging through story just helps us to honor narrative as a form of truth and data. Um, also, it helps us treat the whole person, right? And not just their symptoms. Oprah and Dr. Bruce Perry have that book, What Happened to You. I love that reframe because a lot of times we say, like, what's wrong with you? You tripping? But what happens if we reframe that from judgment to curiosity and we start to get really curious about what happened to this person to make them so hostile or to make them jump the gun that way, or to make them so cold, or to make them less trusting, right? I think providers need to be trained in cultural humility in order to really um develop that sense of curiosity, especially about people who are of a different identity than we are. I think representation is important, right? And therapy. We don't have, I mean, we've come a long way, but we have a long way to go. I want clinicians, librarians, educators, caregivers to really think critically about how we uplift people and how we do that is we start with the relationship and we start by actually like getting to know people. I never literally like when I have a new client, it takes me months sometimes to actually even get to the therapy work because I spend so much time just wanting to have a therapeutic stance to build trust, right? And I think we don't talk about like gentleness enough. Um gentleness is actually not not passive in therapy, it's very active. You have to refuse to pathologize, especially when so many of our tools and assessments are meant to pathologize. Like, well, what's the diagnosis? You can't build for this unless you have a diagnosis, right? Um, forget about the racist and ableist history of the DSM and transphobic history of the DSM that we used to diagnose. So I think this gentle approach to the work, this commitment to slowing down, going at the client's pace, remaining curious, a belief that um also healing doesn't have to hurt to be effective. Like sometimes my clients come in and they're like, What, you want to read a novel with me? Like, isn't that a waste of time? Like, shouldn't we be like hitting these, you know, goals? And I'm like, hey, it's a process. I need to get you into my therapy room. And they're like, What do you mean I am here physically? Yes, you're here physically, but I need to get you here, anchored here emotionally with me. And something that I've learned in the 15 years that I've been doing this work is that for some people, um, relating is really hard and really activating. Um, we do a really good job of like faking the funk. And I think that's why when we're like out in social spaces, the first thing we ask people is like, what do you do? Right. Everything is based on like titles and credentials and getting into fit in and a sense of belonging, but like we forgot how to just like talk to each other. Um, and so I have to spend a lot of time putting people at ease, letting their defenses come down before we can actually get to the nitty-gritty. And I think we're trained as clinicians in social work schools to be like, okay, um, so tell me about your mother. Like, that's not the first thing that should be coming out of your mouth when you meet a new client. So um, I have so many thoughts on how the field needs to evolve. I have seen a lot of um evolution happening. I hope that social work school and training programs will catch up with the times. I'd love to see more creative arts therapies interventions in social work programming. I do teach bibliotherapy, but I teach it um to librarians. No one has yet hired me to teach bibliotherapy to clinicians. I would love that. I do workshops for educators, librarians, um, but the social work field hasn't quite gotten there yet. So hopefully um we'll see more integration of the creative arts because that's the thing. Clinicians are doing it. It's not that we're not doing it. I think we need more empirical evidence of the effectiveness of the modality, with you know, with that being funded, of course, through these like scholarly journals and things. But you know, there's the Journal of Poetry Therapy, there's a few um smaller publications that honor these modalities and people who are doing the work on the ground. So I I just want young social workers out there to know like you can become an expert in your field and do it your way. So I hope that encourages somebody. I hope people pick up the book and they're like, I'm gonna go after, you know, this method because it speaks to me. That's what I hope.

unknown 55:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yes. So speaking of speaking to you, we're gonna go back to a little, little Emily. When did you fall in love with books? And when did you discover that you yourself were a writer?

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Oh, I love that. I've always, always um read. I think like you, I read really young when I was like two. I found out that I was nonverbal until I was five, um, which I didn't even know. Like so much of my childhood was a blur, and then I reconnected with my biological mother, and she's like telling me all these things. Um, and then so many beautiful memories started to rush back. Like she told me one of the things that she would do is come pick me up on Saturdays after work, and she take me to the library, and I do remember those library trips, but I didn't remember that they were with her. I had a little red wagon that I would take, and the librarian would let me take out 10 books. And so I guess my grandmother was like, I'm not carrying all those books, you know, to the library with Emily, but my mother did it, and I do have really fond memories of those library trips. I loved um, I just loved reading. I have so many memories of like Matilda, I think was one of the first books that I really fell in love with. And then the movie came out, and I was like, that's like the only film adaptation that still to this day I was just so grateful for. Yeah. Um I was really introverted as a kid. I was really um observant, you know, growing up with my aunt with schizophrenia and just like seeing mental health issues in my community not being addressed. My grandmother was like, she, my grandmother did not play. We went to church six days a week Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, break on Thursday, Friday, Bible study, and then Saturday service because she was Seventh-day Adventist. So we were always in church, and I feel like having like a strict grandma who raised me, who was like so rigid and like everything by the book, you know, reading was like an escape. It was like, okay, I get it. Like I have to wear these skirts, and I I can't wear lipstick and I can't shave my legs till I'm 14, but I will read this romance book. And you know, I used to hide books from my grandmother so she couldn't see that I was reading them. And then whenever I'd uh go to like a friend's house whose mother had like a bookshelf, I'd always just like look at the book titles and stuff. But I was just always like buried in a book. It was a way that I found an escape, it was a way that I found my voice, it was a way that I um was able to go on so many adventures. And I think you know, the reality of it is that childhood was pretty scary for me in a lot of ways, you know? And so I never want to say that like I was such a traumatized child because I don't like pathologizing it. I had such a beautiful relationship with my aunt, with my grandma. But when you when you're a child and you're kind of like seeing things in your community that are scary and nobody's explaining it to you. And I was um African-American and Puerto Rican, so the community that I grew up in, you know, those communities were very like separated. And so having all this access to Puerto Rican culture and none to my biological father's culture, I was always like wanting to learn. I was really into reading about black history. Um, I when I became like 12, 13, I was like a little militant, you know. I had my little Afro and I went through that phase. So I just feel like books were really like a co-parent in my life with my grandma.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

I love what you said. Books were co-parent. Like I just like I just have so many fond memories of books, like one of my favorite childhood books. And even when I see it as an adult, I get excited was Madeline.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Oh, still till this day. I just um purchased a box set on Black Friday for my daughter. I can't wait for it to arrive. I'm like, you're gonna know about Madeline.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Yes, what was it was something about like the the girls were in two straight lines and oh yeah, very rigid, and I remember loving that series because the nuns were so strict, yep, and my grandmother was like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

So, like, I loved the mischief that the girls would get into, and then Madeline went through it, she got bullied, you know, she went through a lot, so that whole series is amazing. And I I don't know if they're still showing the cartoon or earring the cartoon, but I remember the cartoon too.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Oh my gosh, I got not now. I'm like, now I want to read these as an adult, right? Let's buddy read this series together.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

That'd be fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

I love that life. I have a couple more questions before we wrap up. And plus, also I'm like, I gotta cook for my family. Same. Yes. How did you go about choosing these contributors? And why were their voices important to include in this book?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Yeah, well, Natalie Gutierrez is the author of The Pain We Carry. It's a book that uh my clients loved. I loved it when I received the Aviance Readers Copy, and I didn't know that before reading her book. And I remember um reading it, I started integrating it into therapy with clients and um just reaching out to her, and she was so sweet and thankful. She was like, oh my God, I didn't even know that anybody knew I had a book coming out. And so we just connected and she would send me different meditations and guides that I could use in my sessions as an accompaniment to her book being used with clients, and we just became really good friends. I really respect Nat so much. She's an internal family systems therapist and also um a Puerto Rican gurandera. So she's got that intersection of the spiritual and the clinical. Um, and I always tell people like I am a deeply spiritual therapist. Um, that may not be appropriate for all of my clients, but that's like my um orientation. And so I love the way that Nat just integrates um Puerto Rican ancestral knowledge into healing practice. So I'm so glad she said yes to writing the forward. And then Nikolai Pisado is just a phenomenal trailblazing community activist, literary activist teacher. She's like my sister. During the 2020 pandemic, like I had shared with you, everything was shut down. So I was doing the virtual library programming, and um, my son was diagnosed with autism, and then he stopped speaking. So I started looking up programs that I could do or anything that I could do to teach him how to write and spell. Because I know from working as a school social worker that typically for autistic children who are nonverbal, you know, many of them need to be taught to communicate. And so my son, at that time, we were using like a lot of um pictures around the house, charts for everything, step-by-step processes for everything. And I knew that I wanted him to be an AAC user, which is the device that he uses to communicate. But typically for AAC users, as they grow older, it's great to teach writing and spelling because that way they're not limited to just a robust communication system. They can write and say whatever they want to say. So I found Nikolai, her book called Ring the Alarm. I forget the subtitle, but it's something about like a parenting guide for poor black and brown parents. That immediately just took my heart because I was like, who's writing books specifically for this population? Um, and like letting letting it be known. And she self-published it because she couldn't find a publisher who would keep that title. So after reading her book, um, I found out that she was doing these uh free workshops for parents during COVID. And I attended one and she taught me so much about teaching my son um early letter sounds and getting those like early um phonic awareness, you know, skills in. And when I tell you, still till this day, my son's preference is to be non-speaking, but he knows how to read and he knows how to write, and he's learning every day, and it's because of Nikolai. And she's a phenomenal coach. Her workshops are pay what you can. She makes sure that her work is accessible and she's just inspired me so much as a therapist. I've really just revamped my practice. How can I, you know, take on more Medicaid clients? How can I build a practice where I have multiple streams of income so that I can work with more lower-income families? Um, I, you know, she will say, like, we're sisters, which we are, but like in my mind, she's also a mentor because I just respect and love her so much. So um that's just my girl. So y'all should check out Nikolai.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:53

Prior to having our guests on Black Writers Read, we asked each of them why they write. Here's an excerpt from what you offered. Writing is important because it becomes a bridge between lived experience and understanding between cultures and generations, between what hurts and what hopes. It, oh my God, that needs to be a tattoo. It's a way of documenting our existence, especially as black, brown, queer, neurodivergent, or marginalized people whose stories have to often be erased with the story. When we write, we insist on our complexity. We affirm that our lives are worthy of being remembered, studied, celebrated, and held with care. Ultimately, I write because it is one of the most radical things we can do to tell the truth about our lives and offer it as a companion to someone who needs it. Writing is where I practice freedom. It's where I build the world I want my children, my clients, and my community to inherit. As a black Puerto Rican woman, with Multiple intersecting identities, including mother, wife, daughter, and granddaughter who embraces a strong connection with your ancestors. What would today's Emily tell a younger Emily about the journey she takes on through bibliotherapy in the Bronx?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

Beautiful. I love the way you frame that. I would tell little Emily, show up and show out. Show up and show out. We are so afraid of allowing ourselves to be seen because we're so afraid of the judgment of others, which is a natural thing to feel. And I think because I'm naturally very introverted, um, in many ways, yes, I would hide in books because books were my comfort. And so I if you would have told little Emily that I would be writing a book, I would have been like, no way, Jose. Like, what? I'm not writing a book. Um, and so I think so much of the journey for me has been not being afraid to be seen or like doing it afraid, and then finding that wow, there's so many other people who will resonate with my story who find strength and hope in the fact that I told my story. Um, because the the truth is that the version of myself that I am now, I've had to work extremely hard to become her. It wasn't like I snapped my fingers and all the trauma was gone overnight, right? This is like gears of self-work and of integration um and of a faith walk and a community of sisters and healers and ancestors behind me, right? So that's really what I would say to little Emily and anybody out there with a dream is like just show up and show out, believing yourself and believing your gifts and believing your truth and share it. And you'll be pleasantly surprised to find that for everybody who's gonna judge, there's gonna be so many other people in front of that person just rooting for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

So, yes, that little Emily with the little red wagon with her in the library, you know what I'm saying? Just wheeling through the hood that has to be oh that's a children's book.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

It is, it is actually. I love that, I love that. That's beautiful. Maybe that's the next book. Who knows? We'll see. We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

And speaking of, what is next for you and how can a black writers read community support you on this journey?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Ah, well, you've supported me so much just by having me on today. I really look forward to continuing to, you know, get to know you and and your audience and seeing how I can, you know, pay it back, pay it forward. And what do I have next? So I just um yeah, I'm coming up on a year in April uh for bibliotherapy and the bronx being out in a year. Read the book, share the book, review the book. The more that um the book gets reviewed. I heard like once you meet 100 reviews on Amazon, it boosts the algorithm or something. So just like reading the book, sharing the the book. Um, you can subscribe to my website, literacy nyc.podia.com. Sometimes I'll have events that I do or I'll teach workshops either virtually or in person, and I'll announce that on my um website. You know, show up to a class, show up to a workshop, hire me, book me to come speak to your students, um, book me to come speak to your staff or do a bibliotherapy workshop, you know, with your clients or with your team. Um, just stay connected. And I do have a book club, it's on Fable and Story Graph. You can feel free to join the book club, it's free. And just, you know, word of mouth referrals, y'all. If you know anyone who is looking for a therapist that specializes in this modality, I'm officially licensed in Massachusetts as well as New York. So send them my way. And yeah, mainly just you know what I'm saying? It's all here, y'all. So show the book some love. And thank you for showing love to the community through that book. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for seeing me and and for receiving it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

Yes, Emily. Oh my gosh, I have been waiting for this day for so long.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:11

Me too. Me too. And it's been a long day. This was so energizing, and my heart just feels really full. So, thank you for for having me today and for pouring into me. I feel so full.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:24

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Black Riders Read. Black Riders Read is available on all platforms. Please be sure to subscribe to Black Writers Read wherever you listen to your podcast to receive each new episode once they are released. And after you've listened to this episode and subscribed to the podcast, I would appreciate so very much if you could leave us a review as your feedback helps me to curate the series and it helps others to find us. I hope that you are so moved and encouraged to take your support of Black Writers Read one step further and join us on Patreon. Thank you so much for championing this work and helping us to sustain this award winning independently produced virtual platform. To learn more, please visit BlackRidersRead.com. Thanks again for your support and for ensuring that Black Writers continue to matter.