Johnzelle Anderson’s 'Mixtape': On Rewriting His Soundtrack of Life

This episode features our conversation with Johnzelle Anderson, which was live-streamed on April 19, 2026.

Johnzelle is a licensed therapist by trade, and believes in the power of storytelling to heal, imagine, disrupt, and inspire. His writing focuses on mental health, race, relationships, and identity.

He’s an avid reader and reads approximately 100 books annually.

He lives in Virginia with his daughter and an energetic Sheprador.

During this episode, we discussed Johnzelle’s debut memoir, Mixtape: A Memoir, which was released on March 17, 2026 by Atmosphere Press.

In Mixtape: A Memoir, therapist and storyteller Johnzelle Anderson weaves a raw, lyrical portrait of resilience, identity, and healing.

Born to a disengaged West African father and a volatile white mother, Anderson grows up mixed race in 1990s Roanoke, Virginia—feeling like an outsider in every room. Amid childhood abuse, neglect, and racism, he clings to the safety of his grandmother’s love and his inner voice’s promise of a better future.

Told in tracks rather than chapters, Mixtape charts Anderson’s journey from trauma to triumph—from being body-shamed and silenced to building a career in mental health and forming a family of his own. Along the way, he confronts the legacy of generational pain, redefines his sense of belonging, and takes a life-changing trip to Ghana in search of the roots his father never shared.

Honest, at times humorous, and unflinching in its vulnerability, Mixtape: A Memoir is a coming-of-age story for anyone unlearning and daring to rewrite the soundtrack of their life.

A story about the sound and silence of survival, and the rhythms that carry us home. Mixtape: A Memoir is available in hardcover, paperback, e-book and audiobook with Johnzelle narrating the audiobook. 

Learn more about Mixtape and to purchase your copy of the book, please visit: johnzelle.co. 

Mentioned during the episode:

Check out our interview with Emely Rumble, LICSW about her book, Bibliotherapy in the Bronx (S6 E12): Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify

Find Johnzelle on Instagram: @johnzelle_

Find Black Writers Read on Instagram: @blackwritersread

Find Black Writers Read online: https://blackwritersread.com/

Support Black Writers Read on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/blackwritersread

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

It really feels like, you know, having gone through all the things that are written about in the book, going through the journey of writing it and then playing with the publishing machine, you know. Now that it's here and it's out and things like that, it feels like I've done the inner child uh justice. It it feels like those flowers are going to uh these younger versions of John Zelde who didn't know his worth yet. Um so I'm enjoying that. It's very healing to have written it, but it's healing to see the interaction it's having with people. Not because I'm not even saying from my own like storytelling or craft, but seeing because I know, you know, you y'all heard how many books I read a year. I know what books do for me. Books are my friends. Um so for my book to be a friend to somebody else, uh, and to kind of write it in a way like I'm talking to a friend while saying these this really heavy, sometimes like you know, um uh difficult to hear type of stuff. Um it it means that I all the that I went through was worth it. So uh I've been very present and grateful um in this time.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Hello and welcome to Black Writers Read. My name is Nicole Young Martin, and I am the founder, producer, and host of this podcast. Thank you for tuning in for episode 24 of season six of the series. Launched on Juneteenth, 2020, Black Writers Read was created as a platform to showcase, celebrate, and honor the words, work, and traditions of Black writers from across the country, across genres, across experiences, and across the Afghan diaspora. Black Writers Read is a behind-the-scenes conversation into the crowd and what it means to create as a black author in today's society. So starting the series during the summer of 2020, we've hosted over 100 authors representing 15 plus genres from six countries and 2018. This article features our conversation with John Dell Anderson, which was live streamed on April 19, 2026. John Dell is a licensed therapist by trade and believes in the power of storytelling to heal, imagine, disrupt, and inspire. His writing focuses on mental health, race, relationships, and identity. He's an avid reader and reads approximately 100 books annually. He lives in Virginia with his daughter and an energetic pepper. During this episode, we discussed John Zell's debut book, Mixtape A Memoir, which was released on March 17, 2026, by Atmosphere Press. In Mixtape a Memoir, therapist and storyteller John Zell Anderson weaves a raw, lyrical portrait of resilience, identity, and healing. Born to a disengaged West African father and a volatile white mother, Anderson grows up mixed-raised in 1990s, Horn Oak, Virginia, feeling like an outsider in every room. Amid childhood abuse, neglect, and racism, he clings to the safety of his grandmother's love, and its inner voice's promise of a better future. Told in tracks rather than chapters, mixtape parts Anderson's journey from trauma to triumph, from being body pain and silence to building a career, mental health, and forming a family of his own. Along the way, he confronts the legacy of generational pain, redefines his sense of belonging, and takes a life-changing trip to Ghana in search of the roots his father never shared. Honest, at times humorous, and unflinchingly in its vulnerability, mixtape, a memoir, it's a coming-of-age story for anyone on learning and daring to rewrite the soundtrack of their life. A story about the sound and silence of survival and the rhythms that carry us home. Mixtape, a memoir. It's available in hardcover, paperback, ebook, and audiobook with John Zell narrating the audiobook. Learn more about Mixtape and to purchase your copy of the book, please visit johnzell.co. That is J-O-H-N-Z-E-L-L-E dot C O. Mixtape is a powerful act of narrative reclamation. As a therapist and bibliotherapist, I see John Zell Anderson's story, The Rare Courage It Takes to Turn Trauma into Truth and Truth into Art. Its memoir is both a mirror for those learning to love their complexities and a map for those rewriting their own healing story. This is a quote from Emily Rumble, author of Bibliotherapy in the Bronx, about the book featured in this episode. I wanted to share that quote because thanks to Emily, I discovered John Zell. I remember earlier this year when the book launch was happening, and she posted a review of the book on Instagram. And I was like, who's this person? I need to know this person. This author needs to become a friend of mine. This author will one day be a homie like Emily was, which by the way, Emily was recently on the podcast as well to talk about her book. Please check out the show notes for her episode. I reached out to John Zell. John Zell got back to me, and we made it happen fairly quickly. I was so excited to have John Zell on the podcast. We have since become friends. I am so excited for y'all to dive deep into this episode, especially given what John Zell talked about, about working with and healing the inner child, and also thanking the inner child for his brave journey. And also little John Zell too. On social media, I will be sure to share a picture from the book that we talk about in the episode that is just so oh my god, it's super, super cute. As mentioned in the interview, if you buy the ebook, you'll see this particular picture in color. I actually have a hard, I have um I have a hard copy of the book. I have it in paperback, so I got to see it in black and white. I do promise one day to buy it as an ebook because I do want to see this in color. Oh my god, this is such a rich discussion. And you'll also get to meet John Zell's daughter, and this is one of the realities of um of recording at home. We get to really hear what life is like now for John Zell, a single father. And I really applaud him for all of the work that he's doing with his daughter. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode, and I hope that you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Uh that was so great, thank you. Um I was like, who is she talking about?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

I'm like, what a writer. I I have these in my questions, but before I turn it over to you to read, like, um, and I want to make sure I get this on air, like, just the sharpness of the writing. And like, there's just there's so much to love about this book. And I can tell that you've done a lot to get to this place to be able to write not only your own healing journey, but also to studying and understanding the craft of memoir to bring us mixtape. Like, there's there's so much to love about this book. Like, yo, homie. I'm like, I love it. And I and I do hope that you are getting lots and lots of flowers as you continue um your your your your like getting your word out there on the book and all of those things. Because this this book is it's phenomenal on so many levels.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Thank you. It it really feels like um, you know, having gone through all the things that are written about in the book, going through the journey of writing it and then playing with the publishing machine, you know. Um now that it's here and it's out and and things like that, it feels like I've done the inner child uh justice. It it feels like those flowers are going to uh these younger versions of John Zell who didn't know his worth yet. Um so I'm enjoying that. It's very healing to have written it, but it's healing to see the interaction it's having with people. Not because I'm not even saying from my own like storytelling or craft, but seeing because I know you know, you y'all heard how many books I read a year. I know what books do for me. Books are my friends. Um, so for my book to be a friend to somebody else, uh, and to kind of write it in a way like I'm talking to a friend while saying these this really heavy, sometimes like you know, um uh difficult to hear type of stuff, um it it means that I all the that I went through was worth it. So uh I've been very present and grateful um in this time.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah. So Herbie and like a little five-year-old John Zell where Herbie and Yo repossess first car. So the love is going back to that kid.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yes, there's a photo of me and Herbie in the book, too. Yeah, uh let me see if I can find it. Um if you get the uh the Kendall version or the ebook version, you can get the picture in color. Oh but they they said to put it in color in the um in the um the like physical version would have been too expensive. But there's oh yeah, there's uh little John Zell with Herbie, the tattered teddy bear.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

So um, so anyway. So I'll turn it over to you to read and then I will be back to chat. So happy reading.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Thank you. All right, y'all. So um if you're tuning in, uh you may hear a cameo from my daughter. She's fighting a nap right now. So if you hear uh some background noise, that might be what's going on. So uh the chapter or the track rather, I'm gonna share is um was one of the first that I wrote for the book. It was also the longest and it was the most difficult uh to write. Um so I'll preface with that, but I'm gonna get into it. So this is track 34. Uh Rest in Peace, Captain Sabahhoe by Mayada is the song. And at the beginning of each track, you'll see um the name of the song and the artist. Um, and I'll maybe get more into the book's format later, but this is the story of how I made it to 31 years old before I got my heart broken for the first time. No one Succeeds Alone by Robert Refkin is one of my favorite books because it illustrates the role mentorship played in making him the person he is today. Though I'm a therapist, it hadn't occurred to me that I already possessed the skill set to influence lives. I was reading the book for the third time when 18-year-old Zalen came into my life. I wasn't looking for someone to mentor, but Zalen reminded me so much of myself at 18. Mixed race and black, raised by a single mom, absentee father, insecure, anxious, depressed, and socially awkward. I didn't have much guidance at that age, and Zalen had even fewer positive influences. Refkin reminds us that believing in people changes their lives. Zalen had isolated himself during the pandemic and didn't have any close friends. I heard somewhere that loneliness was unhealthier for the body than smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, and I empathized. I wanted Zalen to feel less alone. If given the opportunity, I knew I'd do anything I could to support him in becoming the person he wanted to be. Zalen found it interesting that I used exercise to manage my anxiety. That's cool. I really want to get into a gym routine, Zalen shared one afternoon. Wanna join me? I offered on a whim. Seriously? He asked, his green eyes lighting up with excitement. Absolutely, I asserted. That'd be awesome. Thank you, he replied. I added Zalen to my gym membership and we set the goal of going five days a week. Zalen was timid and quiet those first few weeks. It takes a while to get used to a new routine and new surroundings, I encouraged him. Though we felt comfortable with each other, I understood that building rapport took time. I showed him that I was committed by being consistent. At 8 30 a.m., he knew I'd be there to drive us to the gym. Little by little, I began to share my world, remembering that no one succeeds alone. I I understood the assignment. As Zalen became more accustomed to exercising, our conversations deepened, the connection rooted, and he learned to trust me. Zalen had this tendency to put up a facade. He was emotionless. It was a defense mechanism. He was painfully self-conscious, so he kept others away by seeming uninterested. I remember the precise moment he began letting his guard down. We were doing box jumps at the gym, a high intensity interval exercise involving jumping up and down from giant blocks of various heights. Zalen was braver than me and did the higher box jumps, although we were the same height. One day, in an effort to bond, I accepted Zalen's challenge to try a higher box jump than I'd ever done. I wanted to show Zalen that he could do things even when he's afraid. So I jumped and my feet planted. Then suddenly, with a wobble, I lost my footing, fell backward, and landed hard on my tailbone and right arm, almost sure I had broken something. When the wind returned to my lungs and the stares uh the stars in my vision subsided, Zalen's unbothered demeanor vanished and his caring, empathetic side showed. Do you need some water? Should I call someone? He asked, worried. Uh, I think I'll be okay. I just need to breathe for a minute, I assured him. As I regained com as I regained my composure, I let go of my mentoring posture and showed him what it was like to be a regular ass human being. I hadn't lost any cool points from Zalen. He just wanted to know I was okay. Thankfully, I wouldn't have to bust my ass regularly to get him to loosen up. What started out as a gym routine evolved into life coaching. I enjoyed supporting Zalen and seeing his transformation. I didn't expect how much this young man would teach me about myself and the world around me. When I met him, he was so insecure. Having recently graduated high school, he struggled to find purpose beyond working part-time at a grocery store and playing video games. Zalyn needed guidance, encouragement, and someone to teach the essential skills to usher him from adolescence into adulthood. Being that person for him became a source of joy and purpose for me. Early on, I encouraged Zalen to write a to-do list to organize the goals he wanted my help with. He came up with the following Meet at 8:30 a.m. at least five days a week to go to the gym, apply to a community college, and work towards an associate's degree. Create a budget and save money for a car. Register to vote. Practice driving and get his driver's license. I remember how proud I was when he passed his driving test at the DMV. I knew I loved this kid when I let him practice driving in my brand new Volvo. And he scratched the fuck out of one of my 20-inch rims. He wasn't paying attention and hopped the curb. One morning, I received a text from Zalen as I was headed out the door to pick him up for the gym. I can't go to the gym this morning. My mom's car got towed, and I'm gonna go with her to pick it up, he wrote. Suspecting more was happening, I called his mom, Allison, who answered in tears. My car got repossessed. I knew I was behind on the payments, but I didn't think it was that bad. They said I needed to pay the loan in full, otherwise the repo will go through. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I have to be at work in less than an hour, she explained. Since I was already in my car and had planned to pick Zalen up for the gym, I told Allison that I'd drive over and take her to work before circling back to get Zalen for the gym. I haven't told Zalen what happened. He just thinks the car has been towed. I'm so embarrassed, she admitted. Don't worry, I won't say anything. Let's focus on getting you to work and we can figure out the rest later, I assured her. I drove her to work and listened as she vented about her financial situation. Do you have any relatives or friends with a spare car you can use? I asked her. No, I'll just have to use Uber until I can get another car with an even shittier interest rate, she sighed, deflated. I offered to drive her to work the next few days since I'd be there anyway to pick Zalen up for the gym. In the meantime, I did the mental math on how multiple Uber rides a day would easily exceed what Allison would spend monthly on a car payment, if by some miracle she could get approved for a car loan. I was concerned because if she didn't have transportation, then Zalen's resources would be threatened. Growing up in a single parent household where maxed out credit cards, harassing bill collector calls, bankruptcies, and repossessed vehicles were the norm, I felt for Allison's predicament. I was sure Allison working two jobs without a car wouldn't be sustainable for long. At the same time, I had become concerned with my grandma's driving and overall safety on the road. She'd backed into polls and had more near misses than I was comfortable with. I lived in perpetual fear she would run over someone's kid in the Kroger parking lot because her 2009 Chevy Cobalt had such poor rear visibility. The catalyst for change came when Allison's car got repossessed. My business was doing well financially, and I had been passively researching my options to upgrade grandma's car to a newer model with a backup camera. Because I cared so much for Zalyn, I also wanted to help his mom so that her financial ruin wouldn't unravel the progress he'd made with school and other personal goals. He was coming out of the depressive rut I found him in, and I didn't want anything to get in the way of his momentum. So I came up with a plan. Step one, I'd buy Grandma a newer, safer car. Step two, instead of trading in the Chevy, I'd lend it to Zalen's mom until she could recover from the repo and get back on her feet. As luck would have it, I knew the sales manager at a local Kia dealership. He gave me a great deal on a new sparkling white 2023 Kia Rio for grandma, who had no idea what I had been up to. When I drove to Grandma's apartment in the Kia, I had arranged for my wife to bring her outside. Johnzell has a surprise for you, themed Rachel. As she exited the building, she kept blinking as I stepped out of the car, hugged her, and placed the key fob into her shaking hands. As you can imagine, Grandma was overwhelmed with emotion. She quickly forgot all about her old car, hopped in, adjusted the driver's seat, and luxuriated in the new car smell. Put it in reverse, Grandma, I told her. She looked down at the screen, confused at first. That's a backup camera. So you don't run over any kids. I joked. It felt so good to do this for grandma. Interlude. This was the final piece in fulfilling that childhood promise I'd made to take care of grandma in her old her old age. Next, I intended to surprise Allison. I picked up Zalen and explained to him that I bought my grandma a new car so I could lend a Old one to his mom. Why are you so good to me? Zalen asked. With a smile, I said, I'm going to keep believing in you until you learn to believe in yourself. We got into the Chevy and drove to Allison's hair salon. As we got out of the car, I handed Zalen the key. When we get inside, hand this to your mom, I instructed. Alison was in the middle of dyeing a client's hair and looked at us quizzically when we showed up unannounced. Zalen has something for you, I grinned. Zalen handed her the key. There is a red Chevy cobalt parked out front. It's yours to use as long as you need, I assured. Her client's mouth fell open, and Alison began shedding tears of joy. Alison excused herself from her client for a moment while she chatted with Zalen and me in the hallway. Thank you, she repeated. You're welcome. By helping you, I'm supporting Zalen, and by now you know I'll do whatever it takes to help him succeed, I encouraged. Smiling at Zalen and patting him on the back. I didn't ask Zay uh I didn't ask Allison to pay me anything. The payments on grandma's new Kia were reasonable, and I didn't mind covering the insurance on the Chevy so Allison could focus on saving up for her next car. But wanting to contribute something, Allison insisted on paying the insurance premium. I'll send you the money on the first of every month, she promised. I nodded in agreement. The Chevy was old but had low miles and ran great. Whenever Allison was done using it, I could sell it and put the money towards the Kia. No rush. It may sound strange, but despite having accumulated the debt of a new car to assist Zalen and his mom, I was oblivious to how deep I'd gotten with this mentorship. My empathy for Zalen, combined with the subconscious desire to fix what went wrong in my life when I was Zalen's age, left me vulnerable. By spring of 2023, darkness began to surround Zalen, and that guard he learned to let down that day at the box jumps started building back up. I tried teaching Zalen the importance of time management when he began keeping me waiting for a long time when I'd arrived to drive us to the gym. I showed grace at first and used these occasions as teachable moments. I forgot to charge my phone and the alarm didn't go off. This won't happen again, he'd promise. It would keep happening, and I'd learned that talk was cheap. Zalen, your I'm sorry are worthless because you're not backing them up with action. You don't keep your word, I'd admonish. Zalan learned the importance of punctuality the hard way when Food Lion fired him. He'd been written up too many times for coming in late. I just got fired. Can you pick me up? He texted one day. When he got in the car, he wasn't upset. In fact, he seemed relieved. I knew he never liked the job, but through his demeanor, I could tell he didn't take accountability for why he lost his job. After getting canned, Zalin resumed smoking weed heavily despite having asthma. When he began slacking at the gym because he'd stay up all night playing video games, or then he began slacking at the gym because he he'd stay up all night playing video games. He became annoyed when he noticed no changes in his muscle tone, whereas I was becoming leaner and more muscular. Procrastination and unbalanced priorities made Zalen's first semester of community college a challenge. He took one class to start out. And as he got and as he got acclimated, I helped him set up a reading and study schedule. My rose-colored glasses and earnestness to help had me working harder at helping him pursue school than he was. That semester was exhausting because it required a ton of hand holding to get him to do the work. He didn't have a job, so he only had this one class to focus on. I became annoyed when he repeatedly waited until the last minute to start an assignment and would call me late in the evening, freaked out and needing help completing it. I'm not going to keep staying up until midnight helping you write these papers, Zalin. I have a family and need time to rest, I'd remind him. I know, I'm sorry, this won't happen again, he'd assure. Empty promises. Seeing how I used my Apple Watch to track workouts at the gym, Zalen began peppering me with questions about how it worked. That's cool that you're able to track your workouts and sleep patterns, he said after a brief tutorial. Silently considering his fascination with the device as we did hammer curls and tricep extensions, I asked, if I were to get you an Apple Watch, would you agree to use it to set alerts to go to sleep at a decent hour, reminders to study, and alarms to wake up on time for the gym? Those green eyes widened like a deer in headlights, and he nearly dropped his dumbbells as he considered the proposal. Before I knew it, we were at Best Buy comparing Apple Watch models and browsing the different band colors. I was holding the purchase with me in the passenger seat while Zalen drove us back to his apartment when he lowered the volume of the music. I can't believe you just bought me an Apple Watch. Thank you so much. I smiled and said, You're welcome. Remember our deal, okay? I won't let you down, he promised. Things continued regressing in late spring as Zalen resumed taking me for granted. I lived 40 minutes away from Zalen and reminded him that if he wanted to skip the gym, he'd need to let me know at least an hour in advance. Continuing to stay up late gaming and getting high, he'd cancel when I was five or ten minutes away from picking him up. This shit was getting old, and when confronted, Zalen failed to acknowledge or didn't care about the impact his actions had on me. I was beginning to understand how lopsided our relationship was becoming. If I was giving 100% and he was giving little to nothing, then where was his skin in the game? I was working way harder than he was. This ship was sinking, and it didn't make sense that he'd made a complete 180. Something was wrong with Zalyn, and when I tried to bring it up, I was met with indifference and entitlement. I know something is going on, and I want to help you if you'll let me, but I can't keep but you can't keep disrespecting my time and lying to my face. It's hurtful, I told him. In response, he would lash out, somehow leading me to believe I was the one causing his problems. This dynamic fucked with my mind. I believed I was emotionally stable before Zalyn came into my life. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone out of my way to help him. But over time I had let my guard down. I ignored the red flags slapping in the wind. Meanwhile, his guard was back up and topped with barbed wire. How long would I continue to deny the fact that in many ways Zalyn was using me? One morning, after the gym, I called out the elephant in the room. Remember how you said your friends Antoine and Emmanuel stopped speaking to you? I get it. If you treated them only slightly as bad as you treat me, then I can see why you have no friends, I said matter of factly. I needed the truth to sting him a bit. You're right, he acknowledged, somewhat tearful. Then do things differently this time. I don't want to walk out of your life, but we can't keep going on like this, I reminded him. I know, I'll do better, he promised. You're the only person in my life who tells it like it is and pushes me to believe it myself. When my friend Susan would ask about the mentorship, and I'd share how challenging it had become, she was blunt and stating, he's abusive, John Zill. After all you've overcome in your life, I don't understand why you've let him treat you like this for so long. I knew her words were sincere, but the truth hurt, and I still wanted to believe Zalen would see how much I cared for him and hoped he would work to turn things around. I saw Zalen's woundedness and wanted to be a source of light. In my pursuit of helping Zalen realize his potential, I had somehow given him the ability to dim my own light. If I wanted to escape the spin cycle with Zalen, that car I'd lent his mom six months prior made things more complicated. Initially, Allison insisted on paying the insurance and handling the maintenance. Though I wasn't pressed about the insurance money, I noticed when Allison consistently failed to send the insurance premiums monthly as promised. I also became frustrated I had to keep reminding her to change the oil, to look into getting new tires, and to be mindful that the car was due for state inspection. Since the car belonged to me, I wasn't asking too much that she handled it with care. But more than that, I wanted it to be safe and reliable since Zalen was also driving it. One evening, when dropping Zalen off, I was shocked to find the Chevy unlocked, windows down, while it was pouring rain outside. I got out of my car, rolled the windows up on the Chevy, locked the car, and promptly texted her about my concerns. I didn't receive a response until two days later when I brought it up again. As spring turned to summer, I became increasingly aware of how Zalen's actions were hurting me emotionally. My anxiety disorder, generally well managed with medication and exercise, was through the roof. Logic and close friends were telling me to distance myself from this mentorship. Still, in my tenacity, I remained Zalen's emotional punching bag. I saw the darkness in him and feared that if I tapped out while he was on this self-destructive path, he'd give up on himself completely. I felt burned out and overwhelmed. My confidence tanked, and I had nothing to show for it other than an insane number of miles on my new car's odometer. Zalen couldn't have cared less. You treat me like shit, Zalen. Do you still want my help? I I'd find myself repeating. Yeah, he'd respond with a shrug. You don't act like it, I'd say, knowing the abuse would continue. The point of no return came one morning in August. After I had agreed the day prior that I'd drive him to class, Zalen once again left me waiting outside. I texted him when I arrived but received no response. After several minutes, I knew he was asleep and I was tired of wiping egg off my face. I accepted I couldn't make him care about school or anything if he wasn't going to put in the effort. The magnitude of the sunk cost became too much for me to bear. I drove home and proceeded to have the worst panic attack I'd ever experienced in my life. The emotional pain manifested itself physically in what is known as a psychosomatic state. I vomited involuntarily for hours and had to cancel my sessions for the next two days because my entire body shut down. After waking up hours later and seeing my I'm here text, Zalem replied, Fuck, phone died. He didn't bother to apologize for wasting my time, so I didn't respond. There was no point in sharing how the abuse I'd endured for the past 10 months had brought me to rock bottom. As I looked down into that toilet bowl, tying back my dreadlocks so they didn't get vomit on them, I knew I couldn't continue to let this 18-year-old hurt me, even if he'd become my chosen little brother. Four days passed without a word from Zalen. In that time I had regained some strength and composure. I was heartbroken and wounded, but I knew what I had to do. In a group text to Zalen and his mom, I wrote, Good afternoon. I've come to the limit of what I can do to help Zalen. I can't continue to endure him disrespecting my time and taking me for granted. It's unsustainable and it's and is taking a toll on me. I will be by at 9 p.m. to pick up my car. Please leave the key under the floor mat and lock the car. I have the spare key. I immediately put my phone on silent as I had therapy sessions scheduled back to back for the evening. When I had a few minutes before my last two sessions, I checked my phone and quickly became overwhelmed by the bombardment of missed calls and texts from Zalen and Allison. As I felt the room spinning, I saw a FaceTime come through from Zalen. Though I had a session starting soon, I picked up. You can't do this to us, Zalen started. No hellos or remorse. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, I managed to say, trying not to get too upset before my next appointment. He tried to offer a half-hearted apology. I understand and appreciate all you've done for me and my mom. Please don't take the car away. Standing firm in my resolve to cut ties, I said back, I'm not doing anything to you, Zalyn. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions have spoken so loudly that I can't hear anything that you say. I need to protect my peace. I'll be by this evening to pick up the car. Goodbye, Zalyn. Burning tears rolled down my face as I tried to gain composure quickly and put on a happy face for my next client. My nerves were shot. I had every intention of taking the Chevy to CarMax the next day, selling it and using the money from the sale to pay down some of the car loan on grandma's Kia. When I finished work and prepared to head over to retrieve the car, Alison continued calling me. I finally answered and she pleaded, I can't get financing for a new car. Can I buy this car from you? Again, no hellos. Exhausted and wanting the day to be over, I agreed to sell the car to her for $3,000. We met at a halfway point and I signed over the title in a random, dark parking lot. Zalyn wasn't there. I removed my license plates while she transferred the money to me on PayPal. Disappointment loomed as it sank in that was that what was once a mentorship I valued had been reduced to this, a transaction. I handed her the title and the spare keys, and then we went our separate ways. No words. When you love someone, it leaves an impression on you. My life had changed forever, having known Zalen, and I truly wanted his life to be great despite my need to walk away. The unconscious need to save a younger version of myself through helping Zalen had now become conscious. My intentions backfired as I ignored what I knew as a therapist to be true. You can't help somebody that don't want to be helped. I didn't know how, but it I became certain this experience would eventually make me stronger.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Thank you so much, John Zell, for reading that section. It's such a great, even though it's like toward the latter half of the book, it's such a great gateway for the Black Writers Read community, one, because it illustrates why this book is so important, the relatability. One of the things John Zell and I talked about off air is the relatability of this. Like I have a mirror experience, not with a mentee, but with a former student, where no matter how many, like how much access and like, you know, openings I gave to this particular student, there was no avail. And I got the nastiest venomous um ending with the student. And this wasn't the first time this has happened with someone who was, I'm not venomous like that, but someone who's like me, a young black woman who's first generation and things like that in college. It's happened multiple times. So this is one of the reasons why this book is so slick. The entry point, like there are so many ways that people can connect with this book because you've gone through so much and you've shared so much. And it's like, wow, I can relate to that story, I can relate to that story, I can relate to that story. Um also, too, like it's one of those the fuck she said. Like, when I can open it to the questions, like literally the line where I think um Zalen says, I'm trying to remember exactly, about like you can't help us or something anymore. And I was like, wait.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

But you can't do this to us.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Yes, you can't do that. I was angry, I was like, you little motherfuckers, really, I was like enraged reading that line, and I was just like, because that's the other thing, too, is like really understanding like the lack of humanity a lot of people have entitlement and the entitlement and like it, I bet it took a lot to write this book. So let's get into the question because I have oh, I have so many questions. Um so John Zell, the first question that I have for you is what is the origin story of mixtape a memoir? Why this title and why this memoir right now?

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Great question. So um I knew this book's title and concept before I wrote a single word. Um, I love music. Um I wouldn't be here without music. And I'm not a musician, but music and books have saved my life time and time again. Um, and that's not me being dramatic, I'm being deadass. Um so in telling my story, um, I wanted to do it in my own way. Um, and you read the back copy where it says the a story about the sound and silence of survival in the rhythms that carry us home. Um I didn't actually write that line. Uh uh a very talented storyteller who you will someday have on your uh bookshelves uh gave me that line, and I'm not gonna tell you who yet. Um, but um I wanted the element of sound because a book is you you get the visual, you get um kind of you create it for yourself, but I wanted to add the element of sound because music is so important to me. I like a mixtape because you create a uh a soundtrack for a friend or a loved one or whatever, and it has a theme, but you don't have to overly explain it. It's somewhat self-explanatory. But I wanted to make a literary mixtape. So in the front of the book, you get QR codes to the Spotify and Apple Music uh playlist. It's a real playlist you can listen to. And I've already shown you, like at the beginning of the tracks, you get a cassette tape with the song so that you know. Now, originally this book had um uh the quotes, the actual quotes that resonated from these songs at the start of the chapters, but in later in production, the publisher was like, You will get sued for copyright infringement. And I don't have Megan the Stallion lawsuit Lenny. Um, so I took them out and then we figured out a way to keep the essence of the mixtape without you know losing my concept. So this actually worked out better because you have the playlist, but also when you say you've finished reading something, like, or for example, you start reading something, and that last the chapter that I read you was uh Rest in Peace, Captain Save a Ho by Mayada. You're you might listen to that song before you read it, and you're kind of getting a respite from whatever chapter came before that, right? And so you hear the song and you're like, hmm, I wonder, you know, I can get the vibe of the song, and then I go into the story. It there's something about it that resonates. Like obviously the title, Rest in Peace, Captain Save a Ho. Hello, you just heard that track of my story. You can see why I would choose a song with that name. And you listen to that song and it it draws that home a little bit more. So what I wanted to do was use the music as a framework for telling my story. So the the mission was literary mixtape. I'm not a musician, but I wanted to have that, because I have that music mind, but I wanted to be like in the lab, like curating a playlist as I curated my story. And a second meaning to the title mixtape is if you look at it, mixed is the first half of the word. And growing up, because it's the story is a story about identity, as well as uh what happens when you have a series of unreciprocated relationships. But mixed is what they would call a person who was uh, I have a white parent and I have a West African parent. And so my identity was defined for me from an early age, where they say, Oh, you're mixed. If they weren't asking me, what are you or what are you mixed with, what are you? Um, and so I also like the double meaning because mixtape, as I've explained to you, the musical framework for the book also has the word mix. So it it it I couldn't think of any other title for this book, other than that. So I had the concept before I ever wrote a word. Um, and what I just shared with y'all um, that track, uh Rest in Peace, Captain Sabahhoe, that was one of the earlier chapters that I wrote, and it was the most difficult to write. Um, and I remember I wrote the original draft of. That when I was at a memoir writing workshop, um, and I sobbed like a little bitch uh through that entire workshop. Um, because it had just happened. Like I was a couple months out of the fallout from that, and um I had to write it and I had to, and I'm the type of person, I'll do the most difficult thing first and then go to the easy stuff. So I was like dealing with that at the time, and I'm in the middle of writing this memoir, and I was like, I gotta write this while I'm at this workshop. I'm gonna write this. So here I am sharing snippets of it and sobbing and getting tearful in front of these strangers at this workshop. But that is that's the behind the scenes of what um this kind of work was in writing this book. So to answer your question, I frame this book around a playlist instead of a table of contents, and I wanted to refer to my uh prose as tracks rather than uh chapters. So that's what you get uh with mixtape and memoir.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Which I absolutely love because you're a kid of the 90s, and I was I was a teenager in the 90s. See the boombox. Yup.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

The cassettes, what would they know about what would they what y'all know about a cassette?

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Y'all, y'all know nothing about that if you were born after 2000, the CD.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yes, and having to like when the tape got stuck in the thing, you have to take out the tape and spool it with a pencil. Oh but music, 90s and 2000s, like music is just so like pivotal in the black American experience. Like, I just remember like even because I was big into like RB, like in Vogue and all of that. And like, and and it was nice to have a type of music in my formative years. Um, yes, I can see why music was so important to you and so pivotal here. So I'm gonna go into like some genre-e type questions. Memoir is my favorite genre, actually, um, and I know that it's yours. I like what memoir is and does. Mixtape and memoir so beautifully handles craft. Like, I love how you opened, for example, track eight, talking about outlining the process and how pivotal that visit to a coffee shop was for you. I'm suspecting that it was unexpected to have that aha moment at that moment, right there. Can you talk about how you went from an outline to filling in specific moments from your life in mixtape? And why does such a young John Zell show up so much throughout the book?

SPEAKER_01 46:44

What I didn't realize when I started writing this book that this was going to be therapy on steroids. Uh, been through a lot of therapy, never trusted therapists who ain't been to therapy. Okay. Um, in the year 2023, when I first started writing this book, I went through four therapists that year. Finding a therapist when you are a therapist is some hard shit. Okay. And not all therapists are created equally. So after I fired that white lady, I went through like three black people and they weren't cutting it either. So I said, you know what? I'm going to write this damn book, and that's going to have to be my therapy right now because the therapy wasn't doing it. But I've been through a lot of therapy in my life. So the the the catharsis, the creativity, the introspection, the um the revision and having to conquer, you know, deal with that story over and over again. Um it did a lot for me. It didn't lessen my humanity, like it didn't make me numb to it. It refined, and and as the back of the book copy says, it's like rewriting the soundtrack of your life. It's like um, I'm not revived, I'm not of a revisionist history, a revisionist historian. But in writing this book, as I went along in the process, I learned what I know now as an adult, as a therapist, as a father, as all of these things, and as a storyteller, I can give voice to my inner child in a very creative way. I'm a therapist who writes, but I don't write like a therapist. And I'm deliberate about that because that's boring. No shade. Psychology writers, do your thing. Me, um, I wanna I like memoirs because I feel like I'm kicking it with somebody, right? I feel like I'm getting uh a glimpse into the intimate details. And so if I'm gonna if I'm gonna bust it wide open, you know, for the world to see, uh, I'm gonna do it in my own way. But what I realized is what I know now, it's almost like I don't know if you've ever seen the um the show Unprisoned with Carrie Washington. Um, she has she's a therapist, but she has her inner child that is literally like a little girl who's dressed just like her in every scene and stuff like that. So this kind of felt like that. Like I am the evolved uh person that little John Zell couldn't imagine becoming someday. And I'm going back and I'm writing this story, but I'm telling it through the eyes of who John Zell was at the time. And then I use the mechanism of interlude because I break the fourth wall in my writing. So you heard one in that uh one that I shared there. But I'll be like, I'll tell a story and then I'll be like, interlude. And then I'll basically talk directly to you, be like, hey, here's what was really going on. Or I'll be say talking about like uh my my mother who I refer to as Cindy, and when you read the book, you'll understand that distinction. Um but then I'm a therapist now, so I can give some insight that little Johnzell wouldn't have known. So I use the interlude as a way to break the fourth wall and to kind of not stop the progression of the story, but to give little Easter eggs and tidbits. So at one point I was like, interlude. I suspect this lady has histrionic personality disorder along with an undiagnosed uh mood disorder. Uh, you know, I can kind of do a little one-two as a therapist because you've seen as the reader enough, but I'm a whole licensed therapist, I can say shit like that. But I didn't want it to come from the perspective of a say eight-year-old, because an eight-year-old wouldn't be able to speak on that, right? Um, and so I use these different elements to tell the story, but then I I insert my I I joke all the time, my alter ego is a comedian, a DJ, a part-time assassin, and a librarian. So I use the DJ element here. I talk about my books. We ain't gonna too much on my part-time assassin because that ain't none of your business, and the librarian, um uh, or the comedian, the DJ, the part-time assassin, and the librarian. So you get three of them, I ain't gonna tell you much about the other one. But the point is, we're all here. All of these parts of John Zell are here, but they are going to. I really wanted to uh because I remember, you know, I remember and uh I know what it felt like, and so it's my job as a storyteller to give the readers the glimpse into what it felt like. And I wanted to, if you're gonna make someone feel something, you got to engage five senses. So sound was really important for me because the sense for me that is most important is music and sound and and the stories we tell and all of that. Like, um, so I I really wanted to do that. Um but yeah, uh younger version of John Zell um is the is the protagonist here. Um, and he's imperfect, right? He makes some mistakes, he makes some blunders, but he's also um oftentimes working with what he's given and and navigating some things that don't make no sense. So that was a long-winded answer.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

But that also took care about like three or four questions, which is amazing. Yes. And you mentioned another reason why this book is so brilliant. You do such a great job at, and the other thing too, people have to understand about the genre of memoir, because you're doing a look back and it's creative nonfiction, you have to create yourself as a character. And that's why I love those interlude moments because it'll be like, you know, a much younger John Zell telling the story, and then you'll be like, wait, what did he just say? And the interlude is your older self, you've lived some life, you've gotten your training as a therapist, and you're like, okay, let me reframe this for you. It felt, I love that breaking the fourth wall. It felt very like, I live near train tracks if you hear a training. Um, I love that it was very like Abbott Elementary, where it was like, yeah, let me take this moment to break down to you what's actually happening so that you don't think that we're crazy. So I love the John Zell, the younger version of John Zell that you've created and the honesty in that younger version of John Zell, but also too, being mindful of this book has the ability to reach multiple people. And so that's one of the reasons why I love the interludes. So I've done a lot of research on you, and being that you are someone who incorporates bibliotherapy into your work as a therapist, I'm seeing that here, and you talked a little bit about this already, but I would love to hear more. You do this, but through music in your book. And I would love to know what came first, the track or the story within the track, in terms of thinking about like how bibliotherapy works, and then what does the song say about you and where you were in that part of your life? Or while writing that particular track? And I hope that question makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

It made complete sense to me, and I want to tell you something, Nicole. You're the first one to ask me this question. I've done more interviews than I can count at this point, which is a great thing for the glow-up. But this is a the first time someone's asked me this. So um the songs came before the writing. And what I did was because I'm so because music is storytelling, I listen to music all the time. I'd listen to a song and I'd hear a line and I'd add it to the playlist called Mixtape, which was much bigger before there was like the public one that you can get to now. And when I was writing, because I have all these stories living in me, but the part of unpacking it is I need to evoke something. A song can evoke something, and it didn't necessarily have to be a song of the era that I'm writing about. For example, um, the book opens with uh a very cinematic type of track, which is uh Notorious Thugs uh Biggie featuring Bone Thugs and Harmony, right? And it's a scene, it's a story of the day I was being born. What the hell about a white lady having a mixed-race baby has to do with notorious thugs, you might ask. Well, there's a line in the song where Biggie says, been in this shit since 92. Look at all the bullshit I've been through. If I'm leading my own story, that line, John Zell was born in 1992, and you're finna see the bullshit that I've been through. I chose that for that reason. I knew that line from that song was going to be at the start of my book before I had written the prose to go with it. So the songs uh were all thrown on a playlist, and when I would sit down to write, I had like a framework and an outline and things like that. But like I said, I started with that really hard thing to write about, something that was very, I mean, I had written some little scenes and things, you know, piecing it together. But the I started with like the heaviest, most visceral, and then I went back, right? It didn't go in a linear order, but obviously a memoir needs to be told somewhat chronologically. But then using my framework of a mixtape, I even at some points will be like, oh, we're gonna do a rewind here. Like I really played with the elements of music and stuff like that as a literary mechanism in telling the story. So um, you know, there were other tracks that you might listen to and you might be like, Why the hell did he put this here? But then you might get a track like uh I use same hands by Bia featuring Will Dirk. And the chorus of that song is crushing up the drugs with the same hands that I fixed to pray with. I don't trust this nigga that I lay with, too stuck in my ways. Um, yada yada, I cannot afford to be complacent. So you might be like, You crushing up the drugs with the same hands that you pray with? It's not literal. I chose that song, and that's gonna make the the reader scratch their head a little bit, but there's a line later on in the song where it says, I don't judge nobody because I send to. If I see you win, then I win too. So I like that line. And back when the quotes were in the book, that was what I pulled. But um I couldn't put the quotes in the thing. So I did do a small series on my Instagram. If you go to my Instagram, Johnzell underscore, um, there's a little highlight reel where I went through each track day by day leading up to the um release of the book, and you can go track by track and get the explanation of why I chose each track. So if you want the literal of why I chose it, you can go there. Um, but if you're just wanting to read it and figure it out for yourself, that could be a fun experience too. Um, but yeah, the tracks came before the pros, but I um it was fun to I I thought of, you know, I used to watch making the video and uh making the out, you know, those little shows that they used to do. And I just imagined myself like, okay, before this, before this record drops, I gotta find out which tracks are gonna get cut and which because I was doing stuff cutting my own little editing things and stuff like that with my prose, but I was also doing it with the songs. It was like, hmm, maybe because originally um Ungodly Hour, which is a track that I use to talk about uh being baptized in the Catholic Church as a child, it was originally Church Girl by Beyonce. Um and I was like, hmm, that that one doesn't quite fit as good as Ungodly Hour. So I was like, I like them both. And but again, if you look at my uh mixtape, you'll see Beyonce is well represented there. So she could have afforded to lose one track on here. She's well represented, but um yeah, I I got to have fun with the the picking and choosing of that. I got to have fun with telling my story, even though it was a hard process. So um creatively, I really um uh this was such such a fun, difficult, all of these things uh type of project to put together.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

So so being the memoir is your favorite genre to read, and your first book is memoir. Can you talk about some advantages and challenges of this particular genre?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

I think I won't say I think, I know now that I am a published author and have uh gone through the I've you know, I'm not classically trained as a uh storyteller in a sense that my degree is there. Um but what I realize in writing memoir, first of all, a celebrity memoir is an easy bestseller for a celebrity. You already have recognition, right? Uh what I encountered in having written my whole book, and if you read this book, you'll realize it stops when I'm 31, but I am now 33, about to be 34. There's been time from when the book was finished to publication, right? Because it's not a fast process to deal with the publishing machine. But what I realized when the book was finished, and I went to Go Query Agents, um, you have to then prove yourself that because they ask you, why do you matter? Why does your story matter? Why does this need to be told now? What do you have to offer? And you know what that sounds like that sounds like capitalism to me. And I'm cool on capitalism because I didn't ask to be born here, but here we are, right? But I through writing this book learned my worth. I learned that I ought to love, like, and understand myself, especially since other people will not always love, like, and understand me, right? Uh, I gotta have that internally. So imagine me going after writing what I believe to be my favorite thing I've ever written. Um, and I'm not saying I'm perfect. Um, two typos made it into the final print, and they were the fault of the publisher, not mine, because I have the earlier drafts to prove that that wasn't my mistake, but that's neither here nor there. That's neither here nor there. The point is when agents are asking you to prove the value of your story, I it wore me out. I wore, I I I queried over 200 agents. And what really hurt the most was the black ones who talk to you just like the white people. And just like a white cop tries harder, or I'm sorry, a black cop tries harder to prove that they're a cop. I'm more afraid of a black cop than I am of a white one, but that's that's a conversation for another day. Just like the white uh uh uh publishers and the agents and all of that act the way that they do and they cap for capitalism, the black ones were even worse because they have to prove that they fit in in a very whitewashed industry. But that's a conversation for another day. The point is, I got tired. I got tired of having to have told my story in the way that I did, and they're like, Well, how are we gonna market this? Um, why do you matter? What what platform, how many followers do you have? How many subscribe? Uh, how many this? Uh, how what is your platform? Um, what are your metrics and all these other things? I'm like, you don't even, you haven't even read my story. And you want to know how much money and how marketable this can be. And you lead with that. So I will say the hardest part about writing this book wasn't the writing the book. It was not being, I wasn't the the not being classically trained in in literature wasn't an issue for me because I read, if you read, you can write. Um, and wow, the ancestors would be so proud because they didn't let us read or write. But that's that's a con and I say ancestors, capital A, I mean the the black ones. I have both, but I'm talking about the black ones. Black is capitalized, ancestors are capitalized, you know who I'm talking about, I don't capitalize white, sue me. Um, but anyway, um I knew I wrote a good book, but dealing with the machine and being told, you gotta prove to me why you matter before I'll even look at anything. And I did that. I played the game, I did the query letters, I sent snippets of my book. I'm giving it's not just giving a story, I'm giving me because I poured myself into this. And I the world won't handle you with care, they don't have to, but the process of showing bits and pieces of my story to people who only saw numbers and dollar signs and metrics and Instagram followers and all this other stuff, and told me my value before they ever read a word of what I had to say, I became very discouraged, but I knew that my story wasn't the value wasn't based in those things that the industry was looking at. So I decided to go hybrid, in which I don't need to have an agent. I go straight to a publisher and I went that route. But in publishing this book, it's a memoir, it's my favorite genre to read, but I'm not a celebrity. I didn't have a big following, I still don't. Uh I'm proud of the almost 500 followers that I've accumulated through being a brown person on the internet who geeks out about the books they read and puts reviews up for fun. So I think that that's pretty great. But um I published my book anyway, but I'm not a celebrity. Um I'm not gonna speak on any celebrity in particular, but I've read some I've read a lot of celebrity memoirs. Some of them are not very good. Some of them are very boring. Some a lot of them don't actually tell you anything that you don't already know if you listen or follow the people. Um and y'all don't know me, but if you read this book, you're gonna know me. And furthermore, you're gonna be able to relate. I had to deal with the publishing machine, and um I told my story anyway, even though the metrics and the marketability and uh capitalism said that my story didn't matter, but my ancestors, capital A, the black capital B ancestors told me that my story did matter. They were with me when I wrote it, and they told me my story was going to be bigger than I can imagine it would be, and saw me through the process. And when my story came out, it has done more, and I have had more exposure and experiences, and have interacted and resonated with people with this story in ways that I couldn't have imagined when I first started writing it. So my black ancestors were right, and mainstream publishing can kiss my black ass.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

Yes, Harriet came down on Juneteenth and was like, John Zay, you're gonna write this book. You're gonna write this book. I love you. Black capital B, Ancestors Capital A. Because I and I bet I know the ancestors that came to you to write. Yes, so I have just a couple more questions for you. So I want to know, given that you are a therapist and you are writing, even though this is a memoir, you have to write it from the perspective of being a therapist. I would love to know what did you incorporate from your work as a therapist into writing mixtape? And then what do you now incorporate into your work as a therapist after writing mixtape?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

So uh if you look at where my name is, if you're watching the video, um it says John Zell, therapist storyteller, and I put a line in between. Um the storyteller is present when I'm a therapist, and the therapist is present when I'm a storyteller. They transcend, they're a hybrid. They're me, but they're they they they grab and and take different pieces, right? Um bibliotherapy, as you mentioned, is a part of what I do. I use books and stories to um help my client and walk with my clients through their journeys to, of course, a story can show someone that they're not alone. A story's always show me that I'm not alone. And I want my stories to show people that they're not alone, right? Um, but having written a story, see, me writing a memoir also came from, I think I told you this off-air, but over the years, I've been a therapist over a decade now. So I might share an anecdote because that's called narrative therapy, right? Like where a therapist will share maybe a narrative or a story or something, uh, they call it self-disclosure. And my style of being a therapist, some would probably say I self-disclose more than the average, but I'm me, and you know, if I'm not for you, then go find somebody else, and vice versa. But anyway, um, I'll share a story from my own life. So the client might be saying, like, you know, because they make assumptions about a therapist, right? So a client might be like, Oh yeah, so-and-so pulled a gun on me, but I'm sure you don't know nothing about that. Oh, well, since you don't know about me, let me tell you about the time I was chased at gunpoint in the Walmart parking lot by my father. Since you think I don't know nothing. And be like, damn, you should write a book. Okay. I'll make note of that. So I have stories that have come out, little anecdotes that I've pulled out, not to make their therapy session about me, but sometimes they need to know about me in order to trust me. So I've had so many clients over the years say, you need to write your own story. And I tell my clients all the time, I'm like, you need to write your own story. Like, there hello, there could be, you know, because here I am the therapist that I'm being changed and um inspired by these stories. Because what is therapy if not going to a person and telling your story? So that is how these things transcend. They keep influencing each other. And as time goes on, I'm getting better. The story my stories are getting better, but also my ability to hold stories and to help people process their stories, and vice versa, it gets better. Not because there's anything. Um I would say that being a therapist is an art, it's not a science. And so just like being an author is an art, it's not a science. There's not a formula that says, read this and you will write a best-selling memoir or whatever, you know. Um it's it's about craft, it's about practice, it's about trial and error, it's about timing. It's a bit of magic, honestly and truly, um, and and and all of these other things, but that's the ambiguous answer to uh a question that's still being answered day by day.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

So I have two more questions for you. So the last section of the book, Outro Freedom, is written like journal entries chronicling specific dates. It ends with a commencement speech to one person, to you. I like how it opens up possibilities of follow-up books. So, can you talk about why you chose to end the book in this way?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

I chose to end this book this way. Um, surprisingly, I didn't know I would need this book when it was when it was said and done. I didn't know how this book would actually serve me. Another part of that though, and I'll give I'll come back to why I didn't know I needed this book. Um I can't stand a memoir that ends happily ever after. Like I'm 30. Well, uh the book ends when I'm 31, okay. There's I I I'm I might be a third of the way there. I plan to live long. Um so um I don't like something that uh ends happily ever after. We we give kids these these fair these stories that end and happily ever after, and then the white people get married. Um but life doesn't work like that. And I can't I don't like when a memoir or a story ends with they they lived happily ever after. I'm okay with uh, and then it was a little messy and ambiguous, and they trying to figure it out because my therapy sessions end like that with clients. Sometimes it's tense, sometimes they crying. I and I and I don't hold myself to the standard of, oh, as a therapist, I need to put them all back together and put a bow around it, and you're the journey continues. You might read this book and be feeling a kind of way or something, or you might read someone else's book and be feel a kind of way, you might watch this podcast and feel a kind of way, right? The story continues, so I didn't want to end my story with a and here's the 10 tips on whatever. I said, rather than doing that, rather than giving some pithy anecdote or something, I'm gonna talk to myself. And when I wrote that commencement letter to myself, it's all the things that I'm constantly working on. Be kind to yourself. Um, you know, these principles, such as focus more on love, liking, and understanding yourself than begging someone to care about you. Like these are all the lessons that I learned from telling the story, and that I'm still reminding myself of. These are the lessons that my ancestors are telling me. Um, these are the things that I want to teach my daughter. I wanted to, you know, I've told my story, I brought the reader in, we homies, right? Uh and you've gotten my interlude, you've gotten my insights, you you know me now. Um, but just because I knew me and I'm written this, I'm not gonna play you and say, I have it all figured out, and this is how I'll live happily ever after. Because when this book was finna go over to the publisher, I'm sitting at my desk doing final edits when I get blindsided by a separation less than 24 hours before it's gonna happen. I was the last to know. So when you read this book, you'd be like, Oh, he he's married, he lived happily. No, no, no. But you go to the acknowledgement section, and the first thing in the acknowledgement section, you're gonna find out that that marriage didn't last. I write something nice, it's a it's a little bit of a uh uh uh like you know, to my ex or whatever, uh kind, respectful, whatever. Thank you for, you know, even though the marriage didn't work out, you know, I appreciate you, whatever. And that is the Easter egg. That's the you know, you wouldn't know that, but I needed this book when I was going through she up there playing drums with the toys. So you're getting a little a musical intro interlude from MJ right now. Um but I didn't know that I would need my story of a series of unreciprocated relationships to heal and work through the fact that I thought, see, that's why I'm glad I didn't end it on a happily ever after. Because if I would have ended it on a happily ever after, and then something isn't happily ever after, then I've set y'all up for failure and my story is void. I knew that life is too ambiguous for that to happen, so I didn't want to do that. But then I what I realized as I went through that grief process uh and and I continued to do revisions with the publisher and stuff like that, I realized that I have in my hand a collection of series of unreciprocated relationships that taught me the importance of being love, liked, and understood. And it actually helped me to understand that my marriage, though I thought it was the one relationship that would be my space for love, like, and understanding, I was able to take the lessons from other experiences and be like, actually, it wasn't as supportive as I wanted it to believe it was. There was elements of neglect happening to me. And one person that interviewed me about this book, and I caught me off guard. They said, you know what I noticed in reading the book, and then having seen things you uh uh you know, following you on Instagram and seeing that you're now separated and stuff like that. It seems like your ex, your wife, was like your mother in some ways. And I said, Not the readers making connections with stuff I'm still trying to figure out, and they weren't wrong. There are elements that kind of show up there, and like you said, the ending of this book leaves room for there to be a follow-up, and worry not, because the follow-up memoir is going to be called African, as in half African, okay, African. Um, a memoir, and I'm working on it now, and it is going to incorporate verse because I am not subscribing to one genre. I want to write memoir, but this time I want to do it with poetry, and maybe it'll be a blend with prose, or maybe it'll be all uh verse. We'll see. Um, but that will be the place where you get the T about what the hell happened with this marriage. And also you'll get more about my travels to West Africa. So um I think I answered the question.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:02

Yes, you did. And also, too, I wanted to insert I love that it's a graduation speech, and you're about to hear my co-host, my dogs barking. Um, I'm putting the professor hat on for a minute. Graduation speeches, the best ones are those that leave guideposts for our students to take on new challenges in life. And that's what I love. Well, other than everything else, why you end the book in the way that you did, because it's like John Zell just worked through some shit. Now let's get ready for the next challenge. And I think that's what commencement speeches do. Yes, they are celebratory, but they're also like, yo, the world be life in. Let's prepare you for the next chapter of life. I also think, too, it's a great way to go back to a young John Zell and Herbie and be like, yeah, let's, you know, let's hug you and thank you for growing in the way that you have and going through all the things that you have, and let's prepare you for this next chapter. So I I love that it ends with a commencement speech because of what it opens up. But also, too, what it does is it says to your reader, something else is coming, but what is it and when is it? So my last question to you is and you mentioned um African, which I cannot wait for that, especially given given the situation with your absentee father and and also to uh your your mother. Cool. Um, the question that I would like to end with is what is next for you and how can a black writers read community support you on this journey?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:09

So uh my she's gonna copy everything I say. Um you need to stop copying me and be quiet, okay? Okay. So my co-host is here. She's she's tired of playing in her room. So to answer your question, you might hear an echo because she likes to copy everything I say. Um but coming up next, I have a children's book that I'm working on that centers my daughter as the main character.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:36

Um we have a children's book.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:40

I'm working on a novel that will center um black and biracial characters, and uh it's gonna explore bisexuality. Um and depending on how nasty I want to be, it might be smut. Um, so we'll see how that is. And then the other book is African, a memoir, which I hope to write in verse. Um and uh yes, currently working on all three of those uh at various uh stages of development. So those are the three things that are coming up for me, um, as well as um giving a mixed paper memoir all of the opportunities for shine and promotion that it preserves. Um, so doing all of that while also being a single dad, while also finalizing this divorce, while also uh being in a new relationship, um while also uh living in the middle of this economy that is uh unsustainable as hell. Um uh but looking good while we do it. The things that I focus on is uh peace, joy, reciprocity, freedom.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:53

Freedom.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:54

Having written my book, I have been able to experience those things I'm doing those things.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:02

Almost things.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

And this right now, and what I'm experiencing, is what little John Zell couldn't have even imagined. But there was a glimmer of hope that knew that he was gonna be okay. Be okay who I am today is doing that little John Zell justice. But furthermore, you see this little girl right here with my face. And I'll end with this. I write the dedication to my daughter. So the dedication to this book is to MJ. So I say, Maya Jane, it's right there. Maya Jane, you can't read yet, but one day I hope you'll pick this up and understand where I come from. May these words serve as a guide for exploring who you are unapologetically. Love Dada. So I dedicate this to my daughter because um she won't have to go through this journey of exploration in the same way that I did.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

Is that my name?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:07

She won't have to know her connection to the continent because in December I took her to Sierra Leone, West Africa, where my father immigrated from. He never took me there, but I was able to go there and connect with the roots. I've been to West Africa three times, I've been to Ghana three times, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

Three time, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:27

Um and her journey of not knowing where she comes from or knowing her blackness or knowing her roots will be the same because I'm going to teach her um and give her access that I didn't have, but also just thinking that her story is going to be her own. And I don't need to parent from a place of what I didn't have, but I can parent from having work through my own things and love, liking and understanding me so that she can learn from a young age to love like and understand herself. And that would be my greatest accomplishment is teaching my child to love like and understand herself, to give it to others and to receive it in a healthy way. And I think that people who read this book, she's just copying everything I said. Um I want to copy. I know we're almost done. But we'll also feel like they're along for the journey, but um it's universal human experiences in which we all want reciprocity, we all want connection, we all want to feel like we matter. We've all had a moment where we've been made to feel like we didn't matter. I felt that way when taking this book to uh mainstream publishing and being like, hey, can I have a chance for you to look? And they were like, Why do you matter? Well, I matter because now this book exists, I matter because it's finding its readers, I matter because my daughter deserves to someday pick this up and know what uh no no no. I'll leave it on that because this one's getting restful. Yes. Uh I'll let you ask any anything that you have and we'll wrap up.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:13

Yeah, so that was my last question. So, John Zell and Maya Jane, thank you so much for being here this afternoon. Thank you so much for writing. And thank you so much for sharing so much about your story. Also, too, thank you for being a black male therapist. Because that's a whole that's a whole other conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:35

Yes, uh, you Google black male therapist near me, and I'm like one of two people that shows up in my area. So it's great for Mark and it's one of the few terms that being black is uh you know paying off.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:47

So we love that for so thank you so much, John Zell, for being here this afternoon. Please go spend the rest of your afternoon with your daughter, make dinner, and we will touch babies very soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:04

Thank you everyone who's watching and listening uh for um uh uh being patient with the dynamics of this young uh future dictator of the world. Um because it's her world and we're just living in it. And you heard it here first on Black Friday Street. Um Maya Jane will uh take over the world someday. Um so anyway, um thank you for listening, thank you for your patience, and um please enjoy Mixtape and Memoir. And um thank you, Nicole, for having me and for your support and uh for spending time with my story. I greatly appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:43

Yes. Thank you so much and have a great evening, you two. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Blackwriters Read. Blackwriters Read is available on all platforms. Please be sure to subscribe to Blackwriters Read wherever you listen to your podcast, to receive each new episode once they are released. While you're there, please do a review and each action helps others to find out and helps us continue to grow. I hope you are so moved and encouraged to take your support of Blackwriters Read one step further and join us on Patreon. Thank you for continuing this work and helping us to sustain this award winning that we produce virtual platform. To learn more, please visit BlackRidersreat.com. Thanks again for your support and ensure that BlackRiders continue to matter.