Exploring Freedom through Horror featuring Michelle McGill-Vargas

This episode features our conversation with Michelle McGill-Vargas, which was live-streamed on May 2, 2026.

Michelle McGill-Vargas writes speculative historical fiction, short stories, and flash fiction. Her work has appeared in Splickety Magazine, The Copperfield Review, and Typehouse Literary. She is a board member of the Midwest Writers Workshop and Historical Novel Society-North America. Michelle is also a writing coach for Writing Day Workshops. She currently resides in the Midwest with her family and furbabies. 

During this episode, we chatted about Michelle’s debut novel, American Ghoul (Blackstone Publishing, 2024).

"You can't kill someone who's already dead."

That's what Lavinia keeps telling her jailer after--allegedly--killing her mistress, Simone Arceneau. But how could Simone be dead when she was taking callers just a few minutes before? And why was her house always so dark?

Lavinia, a recently freed slave, met Simone, a recently undead vampire, by chance on a plantation in post-Civil War Georgia. With nothing remaining for either woman in the South, the two form a fast friendship and head north. However, Lavinia quickly learns that teaming up with this white woman may be more than she bargained for.

Simone is reckless and impulsive--which would've been bad enough on its own, but when combined with her particular diet, Lavinia finds herself in way over her head. As she is forced to repeatedly compromise her morals and struggles to make lasting human connections, Lavinia begins to wonder, is she truly free or has she merely exchanged one form of enslavement for another? As bodies start to pile up in the small Indiana town they've settled in, people start to take a second look at the two newcomers, and Simone and Lavinia's relationship is stretched to its breaking point.

A wildly entertaining debut from Michelle McGill-Vargas, American Ghoul deftly combines horror and social commentary—with a dash of buddy comedy—in an innovative twist on the vampire genre.

To learn more about Michelle and to purchase your copy of American Ghoul, please visit: michellemcgillvargas.com. 

Find Michelle on Instagram: @a_s_k_delta8

Find Black Writers Read on Instagram: @blackwritersread

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

When you read some um uh black speculative fiction, some it's it's our way of addressing some things. Like if you if you've seen sinners, you have to see that movie like several times because it has like so many layers to it. And if you're just looking at the surface level, yeah, you're having fun, but there are so many different layers to it. And so you can use horror, you can use speculative uh fiction to kind of address those in a way that I guess is not so overt that you're saying, okay, here's the horror, or here's the monster, or here's the terrible thing that's happening, sort of thing. And so you kind of get that. And so I like that we're starting to tell our stories in a way that is entertaining, that it's not all just, you know, um, yes, this takes place and there's a former slave in the story, but it's not all just like slave stories, trauma stories, and all the things that we're going through. You can have this sort of thing, and then you can take pieces of it the way that you need to take it. If you want to deep dive into it, that's great. If you just want to read it and just have fun with it or watch the movie and have fun with it, that's great too. So I would like to see us continuing with that as far as uh writers who do black or uh speculative historical fiction, um, just getting it so that we're just telling stories, right? Um, if we do hit something on there, we want to take a social issue. And I don't want people to feel like every time because you're a person of color that's writing a book or you're a woman writing a book, that we have to tell, you know, we have to hit these social issues, that we can just write stories, just to write stories and just enjoy them.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Hello, and welcome to Black Writers Read. My name is Nicole Young Martin, and I'm the founder, producer, and host of this podcast. Thank you for tuning in for episode 25 of season six of the series. Launched on Juneteenth, 2020, Black Writers Read was created as a platform to showcase, celebrate, and honor the words, work, and traditions of Black writers from across the country, across genres, across experiences, and across the Afghan diaspora. Black Writers Read is a behind-the-scenes conversation into the craft and what it means to create as a black author in today's society. So, starting this series during the summer of 2020, we've hosted over 100 authors representing 15 plus genres from six countries and 28 states. This episode features our conversation with Michelle McGill Vargas, which was live streamed on May 2nd, 2026. Michelle McGill Vargas writes speculative historical fiction, short stories, and flash fiction. Her work has appeared in Splickety Magazine, the Copperfield Review, and Typehouse Literary. She is a board member of the Midwest Writers Workshop and Historical Novel Society North America. Michelle is also a writing coach for Writing Day Workshops. She currently resides in the Midwest with her family and fur babies. During this episode, we chatted about Michelle's debut novel, American Goal. You can't kill someone who's already dead. That's what Lavinia keeps telling her jailer after allegedly killing her mistress, Simone Arsenal. But how could Simone be dead when she was taking callers just a few minutes before? And why was her house always so dark? Lavinia, a recently freed slave, met Simone, a recently undead vampire, by chance on a plantation in post-Civil War Georgia. With nothing remaining for either woman in the South, the two form a fast relationship and head north. However, Lavinia quickly learns that teaming up with this white woman may be more than she bargained for. Simone is reckless and impulsive, which would have been bad enough on its own, but when combined with her particular diet, Lavinia finds herself in way over her head. As she is forced to repeatedly compromise her morals and struggles to make lasting human connections, Lavinia begins to wonder: is she truly free, or has she merely exchanged one form of enslavement for another? As bodies start to pile up in the small Indiana town they've settled in, people start to take a second look at the two newcomers, and Simone and Lavinia's relationship is stretched to its breaking point. A widely entertaining debut from Michelle McGill Vargas, American Ghoul definitely combines horror and social commentary with a dash of buddy comedy and an innovative twist on the vampire genre. American Ghoul was published by Blackstone Publishing and released in September of 2024. It is available on a hardcover, paperback, ebook, and audiobook. To learn more about Michelle and to purchase your copy of American Ghoul, please visit MichelleMiguel Vargas.com. That is M-I-C-H-E-L-L-E, M-C-G-I-L-L-V-A-R-G-A-S.com. It's always so great and refreshing chatting with authors from the Midwest. Me being from the Midwest originally, I'm originally from Detroit, and I actually have family based where Michelle grew up. It's so interesting how much I am still learning. Like I didn't realize there was a German immigrant population in that area of Indiana until reading Michelle's book and talking with her about it. I didn't learn about the industries that were in Indiana until that point. And I also didn't know about the particular pattern of the great migration that landed in Indiana. Because I was just like, how can you get a character to move from Georgia to Indiana during that time period? And Michelle, through research and a creative imagination and also just lived experience and being originally from a place where the book is set is able to really take us there in such a beautiful way. There's so much as all of my interviews, there's so much to really appreciate about this particular one. One, in terms of how Michelle talks about and uses research and creative license pretty equally, I love, I love, love, love, love how much she gave herself permission to just go there. And as you heard in the little intro that I had at the beginning of this episode, giving yourself permission to not put yourself in a box is so important. Ironically, as I am editing her episode and getting caught up on the rest of the season as I'm getting ready to launch season seven, I was able to return back to my own writing. And one of the things that I am so grateful to Michelle for is the permission to really be free off the page. Just because I am a black woman with so many marginalized identities, it should not be expected of me to always explore social issues in my writing. I do it in my poetry, I do it in my playwriting. I'm now exploring short story and fiction. I kind of want some freedom there, especially given what the world of fiction can do for us. So, Michelle, if and when you're listening, thank you. Thank you for that permission. And thank you for reminding me how my own creative license can inform my work. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode, and I hope that you'll enjoy our conversation as much as I did.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Hello. All right, so what I'm gonna be doing is reading from the first chapter. It's not that long. Um, so I'll start off with that one because you'll catch them in the first chapters like why bother. Yes, happy reading, and I'll be back to chat. All right. Chapter one. I can't kill somebody who's already dead. That's what I told them white folks sitting out there judging me. Of course they didn't believe me. For months they saw Simone walking and talking like a real living person, but she wasn't. Wasn't living at all. Her heart didn't beat none, and if they paid close attention, they noticed she never took a breath and barely rarely blinked them baby blues of hers. No, Simone wasn't one of us. But none of that mattered now. All they saw was me, some colored woman standing over what they thought was Simone's freshly dead body. Hell, ain't been three years since old Uncle Abe freed me and my ilk. But here I am, shackled again, except this time I'm in an Indiana jail, waiting for my date with the Haman's news for supposedly killing a dead woman. What are you going on about, Lavinia? I flinch at the jailer's familiar use of my name, like he knows me. I fought hard for my name, but hearing it come out of his mouth is like sticker bugs scraping against my legs. Reminds me of how getting familiar with the wrong folks got me into this mess. Martin, the jailer, makes his way to my cell. I doubt he can hear me over all the shouting outside. I can't make out the words, but I ain't gotta guess the whole town's out there demanding my head. Martin turns his ear toward the noise, snorts quietly, then smiles. Even though it's late in the afternoon, the July heat has him sweating like a fool, and I can smell the tobacco plugs steeping in his mouth. The whole jail ain't that big, just two side-by-side cells, each barely large enough to hold a cot and a pot. Takes Martin only a few strides across the wooden floor to get to me from his desk. His hand grips a battered tin cup for collecting shots of muddy juice from his stained mouth. He shifts the mound around in his jaws before settling on a comfortable corner in his cheek. Then he leans against the bars of my cell, spits a glob into the cup, and licks brown dribble from his bottom lip. What did you think was going to happen? You killed a white woman. She was dead, I say loud enough for him to hear, despite the noise. Of course she's dead. You killed her. Martin removes his hat and scratches his thinning gray hair. He spits into the cup again. I regard my hastily bandaged forearm and cover the bindings with my hand. I ain't killed nobody, I say, knowing it's only technically true. Don't matter. Y'all gonna hate me no matter how many times I say it. We found you with the body. You act like I was the only one out there. I place a finger to my lips and glance at the corrugated tin ceiling. Oh wait, I was the only one out there. This has nothing to do with you being colored, Martin says, shocked that the accusation came from my mouth. Doesn't it? The whole neighborhood was outside and there wasn't a mark on Simone. Yet everybody somehow came to the conclusion that out of all them people out there, I was the one who killed her. But sure. It ain't got nothing to do with me being colored. It doesn't. I got no ill will toward you people. And Miss Arsenal treated you just fine. Why would you go and do such a thing? I told you I didn't kill her, right? Because she was already dead. She was. Then under my breath I add, you'll see. Don't be surprised when she shows up tonight and busts me out of here. Loud thumps rained against the jail from all sides, causing both of us to jump. Martin hurries to the door and cracks it just enough for several stones, clumps of dirt, and louder threats to make their way inside. I test the strength of the metal bars of my cell with my body. They ought to keep me safe in here for a time. As fast as this town turned on me, I wouldn't put it past Martin to hand them the keys. He finally gets enough sense to shut the door once a few of these those rocks knock him back. And here we thought you were different. Martin closes his eyes and shakes his head. If you only knew how different I really was, I mutter, noticing a thin red line emerging on the bandage around my arm. All that jostling getting me here from the courthouse must have got it bleeding again. Martin sighs and tilts his head as if he's tired of hearing me talk. If you only knew how different I really was. Now, what's that supposed to mean, Lavinia? I'm a ghoul. Or at least I was one. A what now? A ghoul, I say, surprised by the wave of sadness that hits me. I stroke my injured arm, remembering how at first I hated being a ghoul. But now, with only Martin standing between me and that mob, I get anything to be one again. The constable bursts in, and for the first time I hear only a few voices shouting my name. Damn fools, he says as he slaps a set of keys onto his desk. All that hollering for what? As if I understand anything they're saying. You think if folks want something that bad, they tell you in English. These Germans sure love a hanging, Martin says with a smile. You get 'em calm, boss for now, and let's keep it that way. No drinking tonight. You think he can handle that this time? Martin's face falls. Then he notices that I notice. He adjusts his pants and then sidles over to the constable. Ain't nothing but the grace of God gonna keep her safe. He lowers his voice while staring at me. She killed a white woman. I ain't killed nobody, I remind them. Had you not gotten so stinking drunk, the constable continues as he reaches for the door handle, they wouldn't have gotten inside and strung up the last fella we had in here, and he turned out to be innocent. What do you want me to do, boss? I'm one man against the whole town. You've got a badge and a gun. Use them. He listens at the door before opening it and swears. Look, Martin, mind the door this time, will ya? Somebody's going to Hammond and Change tomorrow morning. If I come back and find her dead because you couldn't keep your eyes open, I'll settle for you. And with that, he leaves me at the mercy of an armed drunk and a town itching for a neck part, necktie party. Martin mumbles something as he wears a path in the middle of the floor. Then he finds his way back to my cell. What were you saying earlier? He spits out, brows all crinkled together, like I'm the reason he's mad. I didn't kill, no, not that. Ghoul. What the hell is a ghoul? Some fancy French word Miss Arsenal taught you? I raise an eyebrow. If he's talking, he ain't drinking. And if he ain't drinking, I just might survive long enough for the constable to get me on the train out of this town. Not like the law and hammer will believe me any more than these two. But swinging from a tree for something I didn't even do ain't how I want my story to end. And even though I owe Simone a good skinning for what she did to me in the end, I sure hope she ain't dead, dead. Could use a little help getting out of here with nightfalls. I gently press down on my bandage. More crimson blooms. You really want to know? He shrugs. Nobody here but me and you. He takes out a pocket watch and checks the time. Be a couple of hours before the constable gets back from the post office to send that wire. And the Michigan Central won't be by till morning to carry you to Hammond. A story will keep me occupied. He spits the entire wad of tobacco into the tin cup and wipes his mouth on his sleeve. I sigh and sink down onto the earthen floor of my cell. This jail reminds me of the sod dugout me and Simone lived in when we first arrived here last fall. The cave, as we called it, was dark. Had to be for Simone's sake, with only a door to let in a few rays of sunlight. This jail got one door and a tiny window in each of the two cells. The wood along the bottom of the walls is worn away or has been chewed by vermin. I quickly climb onto the lint onto the thin straw-filled mattress on the cot. You gonna tell me the story of what? Martin opens the drawer of his desk and takes out an oval pewter flask. He shakes it, and I hear I can hear liquid sloshing around. Shit. But he approaches the cell and hands it to me. I narrow my eyes at him before taking the flask. I unscrew the lid and sniff. Not that it matters that if it's poison or that it smells like tobacco in stale breath. I pour a swig into my mouth without letting the rim touch my lips. Martin's always jawn on tobacco, so I don't doubt the stuff is crusted all over the top of it. The whiskey warms my innards and my shoulders lower. For a second, I don't even feel the throbbing and pain in my arm. Didn't know I was that tense. You really want to hear it? I ask. I already said yes, didn't I? A smile crawls across my face. He ain't ready for this story, but I got nothing else to do. You ever heard of vampires? And that's the end of chapter one.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yes. So one of the things that I want to say on air that I'm glad I had an opportunity to tell you, Michelle, off air is that this book reads very cinematically. So film producers and optioners, please pick up this book, read it, because I I can see it as a film. I really could. And I think it's because you're so good with dialogue, like the dialogue doesn't feel because in some fiction, the dialogue doesn't really live off the page. And it's like it's there to carry the story, but not necessarily to what's the word I'm looking for? You it's for me, it's hard to imagine the dialogue. And then also, too, you're so great with details. Like I can tell that you have such a great finesse with character development. Oh, thank you. Yes. So Ryan Kugler, if you're listening, yes, like please, because this I I see this living off, I really see this living off the page. Thank you. Yes. So the first question I have for you, Michelle, is what is the origin story of American Ghoul? Why this title and why this book right now?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

The origin of American Ghoul is not as deep as people think it is when they ask me once they've read the book. Like I've done a book club and they're just asking. I was like, I was not thinking about that at all. I love horror movies. So October, as that's all I watch. I don't care, I've watched them a thousand times. I'll go all the way. You got me in the 1930s watching the original Dracula, all the way until like centers. My favorite, I haven't seen that movie. I don't know how many times. So I love it. Every time a horror movie, that's all I watch in October. So I was watching the original Fright Knight, and the guy at the end, um, what's his name? Bobby Cole, something like that. But um, you think he's a person, but uh something he's not right because he like melts at the end. If y'all didn't see the story, it's a spoiler, but it he melts and stuff at the end, so you don't really know what he is, he's not a vampire. And I'm like, if he were human and you think about the Renfield character, like why? Why would somebody want to like just follow a dead body around and you like watching him eat people and then you gotta like get why would somebody want to do that? And so, in my crazy mind, it was somebody had to be in the worst circumstances ever. So slavery, worst circumstances ever, that would be a reason that somebody would say, you know what, to get out of here, I'm gonna follow this dead body wherever she's taking me because I need to get up out of here. So that's where the story came. And it was really just something I was writing for myself because what I really originally wanted to write was like going nowhere. So I'm like, okay, fine, I'm just gonna write this story for myself.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

I love what you said. Like a human in the worst situation ever. Slavery. And I saw like the reading rainbow pop up. Everybody just have one. I have a really twisted sense of humor. Like I still talk about, and I'm like 90% of the African continent, and I still talk about that cruise ship that our people came on centuries ago that didn't have a return ticket. So like I, which funny enough, horror is a genre I'm just getting into. So I I do thriller, I don't do horror. And now hearing it from this perspective, I'm like, that makes sense. Because I do have a question about the unique pairing with Lavinia and Simone. And so I'm like, given that this book takes place so close to after emancipation, now I'm like, that's why she's traveling the US with this, with this hussy of a vampire. Because that's really the only way that she would be able to travel the country freely. So it makes total sense. See, this is why I asked you this question off air. I was like, I'm like thinking, Michelle, where did you get your MFA in creative writing? Like it's just it's not that deep.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

It's not that deep at all. It is not, and I love how people like will read stuff like, oh, you know, you're you're tapping into like the you know, the it's not this is not a trauma story. It is not. I was just having fun a couple of months writing this story, so that's where it came from.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Nice. It's that black brilliance shining. I'm loving it. Yes. So This is so just some some context. I have a I have a very diverse audience that listens and watches the podcast. And then also me, I'm not new to I've been writing now for maybe about like 10 or 12 years. Okay. And I come from, and I'm still working on getting published. I've had a couple of things here and there published, but like I come from the the genres of music and theater and then fell into um into into writing. And so I'm still learning a lot, a lot about genres. And actually, I this is one of the books I was thinking of recommending to pair with yours. I first heard about the genre from this particular author, Psycho Pomp and Circumstance by Eden Royce. Okay. No vampires in this, but it takes place around the same time period. And there's a lot, like the two books, and also um Tracy Cross's books. I have them somewhere, but I feel like these books can be read together. And also professors, and also I may do this at some point, teach these books together because of what they say about the African-American experience, spirituality. Um what's the other word I'm looking for? Um, horror, so many things within this particular time period, because they all take place around the Reconstruction era. So I would love, and this is where the question is going, because this is the maybe third author I've had on of the genre. What is speculative historical fiction and why was this the genre chosen to carry this particular story?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Well, uh so speculative fiction is they it's kind of like an umbrella term of things. So it's it could be fantasy, it could be sci-fi, it could be horror, it could be dystopia. So it's it's that umbrella term for it. Um, but historical, I really like historical, and I'm from Gary, Indiana. I I like I told you, I live like uh two steps away outside of Gary Indian because now I got some money, so I got I'm out. But it's I'm not that far. But I'm from Gary, Indiana. And so when when people hear Gary, it's just like, oh, you live in Gary, oh my God. Or they singing some Michael Jackson song, right? Like, have you been to the house? No, I ain't been to the house. I haven't been in this 51 year, I've never driven by the house. I have not. Not that I don't want to, I love MJ, I just have not driven by the house. Um, but with his story, when I started digging into the history of the city, and all it was just like a ton of stuff that you could write about. And so just I just really love history. I'm a history nerd. I will read an encyclopedia. Well, back in the day, we won't have encyclopedias no more. I told you I'm 51. Well, I would read like encyclopedias and things and documentaries. I love all that stuff. So I like the research. Um, and so pairing that together, that's the the 1800s is kind of like a time period that I really kind of like. And so just pairing it that way because I've done so much research in that time period. And Gary, Indiana didn't exist in 1865, it only came into existence in like 1906. So I could get away with stuff happening and nothing was there, so nobody can say that wasn't there. I know it wasn't there, there was nothing there. It was sand and beach, that was all that was there. So I could just make up as much as I want to with that. But I love historicals, and so putting in that context again, wondering who would want to follow a dead body. So yeah, they kind of went together with like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, and thank you for mentioning history. Like, so I'll preface this. He's in the other room. Um, my husband, he's into civil war reenactment. He's white, so I gotta put that out there first. Even though black people served in the Civil War, the ways that they got there are a little different. And I'm slow, like we're both into history, but we're into different time periods. I was originally into the Gilded Age. And this is another reason why this book I love and why I'm now starting to admire a different genre. Because my genre is my genre was memoir and I do plays and poetry, but now I'm like, oh my God, I'm loving the the possibilities of historical and speculative fiction. But the the stories that I learned through his experiences of doing Civil War reenactment, and he travels a lot because he actually travels to the sites where these battles happened. And hearing the stories, like one of my um favorite trips that we did together, we went to um Manassas, Virginia. Uh, is it Virginia or Maryland? I can't remember. Where Manassas, I know it's by an airport, it's a DC area. And I found out I have family connection to the area, and hearing the story of that particular battle and all those things is interesting. And also hearing about the land and all these other things. And I'm like, I see now why this particular time period, people can tap into authors because yes, we have a lot of documentation, but there's also, especially given that the US um was expanding at that time, we have a lot of possibilities. And I'm glad that you mentioned, given that Gary Indiana wasn't found until after the time period of this book, my students, like the other day, asked me this question because we just finished reading a book that is based on a particular um incident, but it doesn't take place during that time period. And they're just like, this is so confusing. Why is this? And I said, I'm not the author, but I suspect that if the author literally said it during the time period where this actually happened, she's going to have to like really take note and accountability to historians because historians are very like, what's the word I'm looking for? Just unapologetic. Like, for example, my husband doesn't want to go see O'Mary, but I want to go see it. So for folks who are familiar, it's the Mary Todd Lincoln satire. Um, and so I love the freedom that this period is giving us as African-American writers, even though we were kind of starting to be free at this time. But given that a lot of our stories were not documented at this time, it gives us a lot more liberty and a lot more freedom. So I can easily see why you were drawn to this particular period. That was such a long-winded response for me.

unknown 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

No, it is. And and and that could be like you can have alternate histories as a kind of speculative fiction, um, speculative fiction too. So, like um, a book just came out, Marcus Redmond did uh Blood Slaves, and I did a blurb for that. And so I read the book before it came out to do the blurb, and I was like, I have not rooted for folks as hard as I've ever since Black Panther because it was alternate history and it and it it's about I guess this is not a sport, but go read it. It was a really good book. But um there it's it's not 1800s, but it's during, I want to say 17, late 1700s, maybe. And so it was on a slave plantation and it was a slave revolt, but it was started by a vampire who we gonna make other vampires and we're gonna free everybody. And so it was those types of alternate histories. So that you know, if you're taking liberties with that, that may be the reason why it's like, okay, this is didn't happen. It's an alternate history.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yes, now see, which folks who are watching, and if you're new to Black Writers Read, you essentially, and I and I hope that y'all get this. Y'all are sitting in on a conversation that I'm having with someone to learn and like my free little workshops. Like these are free little masterclasses for me. Like I learned so much from each author that I try to tie into my own writing, and I'm learning a lot here. And again, I can't believe that this is your debut book. I just can't. Like I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. Like, why don't you it's a no, it's a great thing because, but also you're just such a slick writer and you just know so much. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So that's a lot of editorial passes, people. It just doesn't fall from the page. Because like I was telling Nicole, I'm a panther, like I don't plot, it's just whatever people are saying in my head, that's what kind of goes on the page. And if they're not talking, I'm not writing. So there's a lot of editorial passes with this.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yes. So I think I'm gonna I'm gonna skip around some questions. Um, so I send for folks, I send questions ahead of time to our guests. So American Goal is set after the Civil War. For you, what are some advantages and challenges of vampires existing during this time period?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

So, because Dracula does is is 19th century, right? But it's like the end of 19th century and it's in England and all that other stuff. So you get that whole gothic feel of it. Um, but with the Civil War, there were some technological, I guess, advances that were starting this. So, like you have photography. This was the first time that we got to see the Civil War because um uh I'm gonna say his name wrong, Matthew Gardner. I think that's the photographer that did all the photography and you got all those gruesome pictures of the Civil War. And um uh there's a mention of that in the story as far as that. And then um with transfusions, right? Blood transfusions. So that was a way for Levinny to kind of explain, oh yeah, she's got issues, she needs a blood because she needs a blood transfusion, right? So it's it's that kind of thing. So you you get all that new technology that's going on, and you can kind of fold that in historically as far as what that is, and then the technology that we're used to now, you you you kind of got to get out of that mindset. Like, no, I can't text somebody and say, get out the house because the vampires come. You can't do stuff like that in the 1800s, right? And so I like that you're limited by the technology that you have, but then I do like the advancements that you can use to kind of weave in there to help kind of make your story a little bit more real, and then just um just play around with that.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Which I just got this image because I'm a huge fan of Clara Barton, who was a nurse during the Civil War. And I'm like, I'm imagining folks who write vampires during this period, it's like Clara Barton just messed everything up. Like, girl, why? Why are you doing this? Yes. So I have a couple of questions about the book itself. And I really hope that people from this interview, if you have not already read it, please pick up a copy. Please pick up a copy. Okay, go ahead. Yes, please pick up a copy and leave a review wherever you purchase this book. So who is Lavinia, American Ghoul's protagonist? Who is Simone? And why are they traveling together? We talked a little bit about this at the very beginning. Um, and then lastly, why was it important to you to have American Ghoul told from Lavinia's perspective of first person? So before you answer the question, I want to put out there why I asked the question about first person. I also teach their eyes are watching God by Zero No Hurston, along with this book and um Tracy Cross's. And one of the things my students and I say is if um Janie May Crawford is this like, you know, very liberated character, coming of age story, and all these things, why is it told in third person? Why are we getting her experience as an outsider? And this is another reason why I love American Ghoul, is because it is told from the perspective of Lavinia, which is extremely powerful. So the question again, um, because again, I ramble and sometimes I even lose where we are. Who is Lavinia, American Ghoul's protagonist? Who is Simone and why are they traveling together? And then why was it important to you to have American Ghoul told from Lavinia's perspective in first person?

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Okay, so who is Lavinia? She's somebody who's trying to find herself, right? Because when she was on that plantation, everybody's gone. She's the only one that's left, as far as like black people. She's the only one there. And she has this fear of what is the world gonna be like because she that's all she knows, right? Is just being that. So trying to find herself, and she's conflicted with the whole uh religious aspect of it. So it's little sprinklings of that in there too. So she's just really trying to find herself, but everything is just kind of um thrown off because now she's got this almost like childlike vampire that she has to kind of take care of. So she's in the middle of learning about herself and then learning about what the heck is a ghoul, what does that mean? How does that play into my life? And then Simone is just um real immature. So I have to say when you're asking about the first person one with the voice, and and this is not one of my favorite movies, but I like watching it. It's gone with the wind. And I it's the I like the movie because uh uh Hattie McDaniel, her character, she would say stuff she didn't care who she was saying it to. She was sassy. I'm gonna say this direct. She called uh what's the girl's name, Scarlet, like she a little spider trying to go off it all, you know, trying to get people's husbands. So that's the voice I heard when I heard with Vinnyia. So that's why I wanted to tell it in first person because the only scenes that I really like were the scenes that Hattie McDaniel was in when she was like checking people and they didn't know that's like what she was really doing. I mean, she was just so sassy with it. And so that's what I heard with that, and then pairing that together. So it's kind of like a um uh I hate saying a name, I'm just gonna say Hattie McDaniel. I'm not gonna say a character's name, but Hattie McDaniel and Scarlett and that back and forth kind of tension that they had in that movie. So that's kind of what I saw when I uh put that in. So with it being in first person, um, and then the fact that they do have this, I don't know if I'm telling too much, but this kind of connection because she is a ghoul, so you she can kind of get into Simone's head. So that's a way to get past that whole your head hopping. Well, I mean, she she thinks they connected, she can see that stuff. But I mean, just some of those experiences of her being a black woman doing this, it was just not so much that I was like, could you tell it from third person? You could, but I don't think you would get that same voice that I heard from that Hattie McDaniel had. It was just the kind of voice that I heard, and I had to get it on there as first person. And I don't know, I'm rambling too. I did I answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 37:08

You did, and you mentioned something which I'm glad because I I have never seen Gone with the Win. I just heard it's like nine days long.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

It's long intermission. Like, stop, go use the bathroom, get you some popcorn, we'll be right back with part two. It's long.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

I did see the parody Went with the Win on the Carol Burnett show, which I don't know if you've ever seen, but it's the one that has the famous curtain dress by Bob Mackie that's in the Smithsonian. So I saw that. So I and because Gone with the Win is such an important film, I know of the movie and from the parody, but I'm like, it's long. And I love that you referenced Hattie McDaig. Because I don't even know what her character's name was. Yeah, I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Um you can imagine what it is. I don't know, it's yeah, it's Hattie McDang. So yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yes. And I didn't realize it was told from her perspective.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

The story?

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Or um Gone with the Wind. Gone with the Wind. Oh no, it's not from her perspective. It was just from the voice that I was kind of oh no, no, no, that was a whole totally different story if it was told from my point of view. No, it'd be Gone with Terra, whatever the name of that plantation was. That would be the name of the story. But no, I was channeling her voice, the way that she interacted with Scarlet on there. So yeah, she'd burn that whole place down. It's like, no, we ain't gotta worry about the ray-up. She's about to burn it on damn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

That'd be that movie would be if it was told from her perspective, the movie would be like, go with the wind, go in. It would be done in like two minutes. No intermissions. We done. Yes, I love it. So speaking of homegirl Simone, who is so messy, but I love her.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

I had somebody get on Instagram, was just like, I love this book, and she was just going in about Simone. And this heifer, I was like, So do you like the story? I mean, but she said she enjoyed the story. But I mean, it was just she was just going in. It was so funny. But go ahead, so quick.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Guys, I love that Simone is messy. So Simone Asino is from Montreal. The story starts in Georgia and we land in Indiana. Commerce is also a key theme in this work because we see like Miss Tilly's saloon and the working girls and all these things. Um, so there's several types of businesses also represented in this book. What was the research process like for writing American Goal? Like, what were some research you did, you tapped into? How long did it take? Like, was this like a systematic process? Or because it seems like it given the references that you make in the book?

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Um, I I guess I did a lot of the research first just because it was interesting. So it wasn't research specifically for this book, it was just that time period and what are some of the stories and things that I can integrate into that. And so there was a lot of um historical stuff that your editors say, nobody cares about this but you. So it's like you don't need to say all of this stuff because like I was I I really like the historical stuff. Um, but dang, what was your question? What were you asking me?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yes, um, talk about your research process, which I'm getting into, yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Yeah, so yeah, so it was I was doing all that before I wrote the story. So it's basically just taking what I kind of already knew and then just um wrapping the story around that. So it was looking to see like there were towns, even though there was not the city of Gary, there were towns. So if you're from or you know Gary, there are different neighborhoods, and all of those, not all of them, but most of those neighborhoods were actually little separate towns before um before Gary came to be. So like Tollison, that was a that was a town, and now it's just a neighborhood, right? You had Miller, that's a neighborhood, but it would used to be called Miller Station because there was a train depot over there, that sort of thing. So just using all of that and uh looking at the different nationalities that were there. So you tap it into the the the um Eastern European folks who came over here, you know, trying to get a new life or whatever, and they're settling in this area. So just kind of using all of that in there, and then like where can I put these pieces in the story so that it makes sense?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Nice. And I and now I gotta do my own research. So, folks, I'm originally from Detroit and I have family that lived in Gary, Indiana, and I think they still do. And I would go to Gary, Indiana, and not for fun. We always only travel for funerals, and so I'm like, I gotta do my own research on the region because I know of like the immigrants that settled in Detroit, but I didn't realize so this now makes sense in terms of the German references because I was like, German immigrants? Wait a minute. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

The Tallinnus was a German town, and so that's what they came there for. And so um, yeah, it was all centered around a Lutheran church that was there, that's still there. Um, and I'm a Lutheran, so it was all of that history in the cemetery that was that's still there. So all of that historical stuff is that was just interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Nice. So I have a couple more questions for you. Prior to having our guests on the podcast, we asked each of them why they write. Here's an excerpt of what you offered. Being an author during this time means finding stories to help people escape to a world much different than um what is going on now? We experience enough trauma on a daily basis by just watching the news. Reading is my escape, and I want to provide that same escape to readers. Nothing heavy, just something to give minds a break from the bat. So, for you, who have been some of your favorite authors to read, and how has their work inspired your own?

SPEAKER_01 43:05

My well, favorite authors, I guess, would be the classics. And when I say classics, I'm talking about Langston and Zora and Tony, those classics. So I love reading those. I I'll read those over and over and over again. Um, but as far as like favorites, I think contemporary, I don't really have a favorite. Like there are authors that I read, but I really like books that will take me somewhere else, or books that show me like a different culture. So like I'll read um like Rita Wood, she does uh um historical speculative. So I I like reading her. Um Colson Whitehead, I like reading his stuff, but then um um uh Yangsi Chu, she's uh I'm gonna say it wrong. She's a Malaysian writer, and so she's writing about stuff, she's got some speculative elements in there, but she's writing about Malaysia in like 1901. Like that's not an area or time period, I know any. Anything about, but I love reading those type of stories because you know, teach me something. Let me go somewhere else different than where I am. And not that I don't like contemporary stories. I used to do the Terry McMillan's, the Elon Harris's, the Eric Jerome. I used to do all those. But I mean, it was now it's like I just need to go somewhere. I don't need to be here today. I got enough of that. So just let me take somewhere, take me somewhere else. And so that's what I was thinking with American Ghoul. I wasn't trying to get all that deep. I just want somebody to have some fun, got a quick read, get a couple of chuckles. It's nothing scary. My guy mama read it. My mama isn't, you can read it with the lights off. It's not that super scary. But I mean it's an escape. And so that's what I'm thinking when I wrote the book. Some people read in deeper stuff, which is fine. I'm, you know, I'm glad they get stuff out of it, but it was just, you know, I want people to just relax, have fun, forget about the world for a few hours, a couple of days, however long it takes you to read it and just enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Nice. And continuing um your response to the question, you also say, and this, I'm really excited to hear your response. Given the research of um Octavia Butler's work, um, it is important to share my work this way because black speculative fiction um starting to blow up, and I want my voice in stories to be among the many greats, like Tiana Ridue and Octavia Butler, and to see our stories framed in ways other than trauma stories. I had fun writing this book and exploring the characters, and I want readers to have the same experience. So, how does your work continue the traditions of black speculative fiction with authors like Tiana Ridue and Octavia Butler? And how do you see this work evolving over the next 25 years or so? And then I have a tacked on question that I just thought of too. But I want to hear your response to the first set of questions.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

I appreciate you putting me in the the in the company of those two writers. Um, but um again, I'm not trying to get that deep with it. So when you read some um uh black speculative fiction, some it's it's our way of addressing some things. Like if you if you've seen sinners, you have to see that movie like several times because it has like so many layers to it. And if you're just looking at the surface level, yeah, you're having fun, but there are so many different layers to it. And so you can use horror, you can use speculative uh fiction to kind of address those in a way that I guess is not so overt that you're saying, okay, here's the horror, or here's the monster, or here's the terrible thing that's happening, sort of thing. And so you kind of get that. And so I like that we're starting to tell our stories in a way that is entertaining, that it's not all just, you know, um, yes, this takes place and there's a former slave in the story, but it's not all just like slave stories, trauma stories, and all the things that we're going through. You can have this sort of thing, and then you can take pieces of it the way that you need to take it. If you want to deep dive into it, that's great. If you just want to read it and just have fun with it or watch the movie and have fun with it, that's great too. So I would like to see us continuing with that as far as uh writers who do black or uh speculative historical fiction, um, just getting it so that we're just telling stories, right? Um, if we do hit something on there, we want to take a social issue. And I don't want people to feel like every time because you're a person of color that's writing a book or you're a woman writing a book, that we have to tell, you know, we have to hit these social issues, that we can just write stories, just to write stories and just enjoy them.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah, and then I don't even know if this is a question, but more like a comment. Um, because Octavia Butler, for the past what, five or ten years, especially given the current state of the United States. Um her work has like, it's always been in the forefront, but even more so now. And now we have, I cannot remember the name of the book, but a book of hers that was just put in reprint that she did not want reprinted. And I'm like, I don't plan on buying it or reading it, but this says to me how important her work has become. Someone is trying really hard to monetize, and I'm glad the conversations that people in the black book book universe is talking about in terms of like the preserving voice and really honoring um our writers. Because also, too, even Tony Morrison, a lot of her stuff is coming up now in terms of her work as an editor and other things being reprinted and things like that. So I don't even know if it's necessarily a question, but just something that I just wanted to bring up in terms of black speculative fiction, because those two authors in particular, especially Octavia Butler, especially with the release of uh, I cannot remember the name of that book, um, The Reprint, and just that I think for me that says what their legacies have left behind.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Yeah, and then even and I lost my train of thought what I was gonna say with that, but um but oh, but as as black people, as people of color, we occupy all spaces, and our story should just not be contained to the experiences of people who of who are not people of color, like you know, we writing something so that because it's marketable, or writing something because it makes them comfortable or something like that. We're all in all of these spaces, so yeah, we were in the Civil War, so yeah, we were part of the Gilded Age, so yeah, we were in all of these spaces. We should be able to tell stories the way we want to while occupying those spaces that it doesn't have to be, like I said, from the point of view of some type of trauma. We're just there. We've been here, we're going to be here, and so we should tell stories like those from our perspective to see okay, what was it like, or what could it have been like if we were the richest people in if we were on the Gilded Age and we're the richest people on there, or you got like Bridgerton, and I've never seen that. That is not my jam. My mama likes that, but that sort of thing, right? Um, but we're just there, we're there, we're just not contained in this little small bubble of time.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

So I love that you mentioned Bridget. So this is a weird aside, but again, y'all who are watching and listening, y'all are in on a conversation. Bridgerton. Care by buckle up because I I got so I love that time period, but also I got I have questions for Shonda Rhimes. Like, but also I'm not into the like high soap opera drama. Like my stepdaughter loves Grade's Anatomy and it's on its like 99th season. Um, but I'm like, and I congratulate Shonda Rhymes for being able to create those worlds. But me with Bridgerton, I was only able to get through like maybe my husband and I, we watched like 20 minutes of the first episode of the season one. And the thing that got to me is, and I'm I'm very progressive, I'm loosey goosey and all this other stuff. But sometimes I'm just like, oh my God, this is I was clutching my eye. I had to go to the store to clutch pearls. The the sex scenes in the first 20 minutes, I was like, didn't they just meet? Why are they having sex in the garden? Wait, they're having sex in the in the in the in the in the budget thing?

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Wait, wait, there was like nine sex scenes. I know, and I've never seen it. And when I ask people, like my mother, she's like all into that queen shark. I guess it's in that queen shark or something. And I'm like, okay, so what is it about? Oh my god, these sexy. Okay, every time I ask about all this, what is the story about? Like, why should I watch that? I can think of my own sex scenes in my head. I can what is this movie about? And I have yet to have somebody explain to like tell me the plot. I know there's a plot, but nobody tells me the plot. It's just the guy that's in there, and then the set that's all I can.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Yeah, because the thing with Shonda, well, minus scandal, but the thing with a lot of Shonda Rhyme shows, I feel like we could do if folks drink, could do a drinking game to when the sex happens. And for me, like the set it just I think for me, it just seems not unrealistic, but I'm like, wait, let me plot. How did y'all get from just meeting to sleep being together? Wait, like I like, but also me, I'm a I'm a I'm a writer. Like, I like I know some people, they're more visual when it comes to storytelling and more action-focused. Me, I'm more dialogue focused, like I'm about to bring up a name of a filmmaker that has probably been blacklisted and like completely censored for life. But I'm a huge Quentin Tarantino fan. Like I love, I love rich dialogue and the storytelling being told from dialogue. So I know some people they need that action and they need that sex, but for me, I was just like, I'm lost. I was like, wait, like I would be rewinding, not for the not for the juicy sex, but I'll be rewinding, like, did I miss something? How did they get from this? Wait, weren't they just talking about? I'm like, what? So I but I I commend Shonda Rhymes, and this is the the gift that I wish I had. I might, but I haven't had a chance to really sit down to do it. I love the gift that she has of creating these worlds where people of color exist without all of the historical trauma and like we we exist in worlds for her where the Beckies can exist. Like one of the reasons why I like Scandal is because Carrie Washington's character was super messy. And I'm like, what world can a black woman exist where she's not so what's the word I'm looking for? Not so not messy. Like, I'm not gonna say perfect, but we can't, I don't like things where we can't have flaws because that just that just that that just is just not realistic. And so I love writing that takes that risk and that push. Because also me as a professor, I deal with so much social commentary all the time. I'm just like, yo, like I sometimes I just want this is why I love things like Frasier and I like a lot of slapstick comedy type things because like because I I need I need that escape. And I'm like, I want us as people of color to be able to exist in that world. Like, I want a messy, like, which I still haven't seen it yet. I also might be the person who needs to write it. I have not seen a messy, like ingenue black woman in a um husband's in the background, um, in a like romantic comedy before. Like, I if people know of it, please tell me because I will watch it. But I but you're right, like we need to be able to exist in spaces where everybody else does. We do not have to always be the we shall overcome. Like, we do not need to be nourishing the Selma Bridge in all of our stuff.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah, like I said, just just have fun with it sometimes. And if you see the social commentary in it, like I did a uh um a book club, and and it it was a book club of white women, and it was it was great. I had the best time with them talking about this book, but they were digging so deep into the social commentary, and it was and they were like, I was like, Yeah, that sounds really good. I need to write that down because if somebody asked me, I could say, yup, that was it. Uh-huh. Yeah, I was thinking, I was not thinking that, but that's what they pulled from it, which is I guess great people are getting stuff from it, but it like I keep telling people this is not a deep book. It really is not. It came, it did not even come from a deep place. I was watching a movie and I wrote it down. That's where we get it from.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Yeah, so also too, like just the fact, also too. I want to applaud you because let me make sure this book is three. This is a lot to write. This book is three hundred and how many pages? 38 pages. This is a lot to write. So thank you for writing this. Like for real.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

So it's it's not dense. You're not reading like Barack Obama's book that's like tiny, tiny font, and it's got like 700 pages. Good read. If you read it, good read. But it's like I got old eyes, and I'm like, okay, what font is this? Like two, and it's still 700. It's not dense like that at all.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

No, you did not, Joseph. I'm looking at it. So, quick story, and then I have my last question for you. Quick story, Barack Obama's a promised land. So I read his first two books, I own them, and they're not that long. And I was so uh girl, I was so excited for a promised land. I don't pre-order books. That book I pre-ordered. I was pissed when I got the box in the box, it literally looked like like like a whole, like I don't know how much stuff came, came in the, you know how like when Amazon ships their stuff and they'll have like this big old box, and then you open it and it's like a pen or a body pen. No, this book was that big, and I was like, what the heck? And then I was like, maybe I'll listen to the audiobook. And it was like audiobook, 29 hours. I was like, uh-uh. Was he reading it? Is he okay? Yes, okay, yeah, it is it might not be 29 hours, but it's long. And I'm like, Obama, President Obama, I love you, but you are so long-winded. Like, but I get that he has a lot to say, which I still have not read this book. It's still, I am looking at it and pointing at it right now. I have not, and I've owned it since it came out.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

It's really, it's a really good book, but I mean, you have to like, I need to set some time aside to read this because it is dense. He's getting into a whole lot of stuff. It's it's great, but I mean, you know, nowadays people's attention span is about that long.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

So and I love reading, and I love reading like biography and memoir, but I was like, bruh, why? What? Well, also, he's long-winded anyway, but I'm like, okay, I'll eventually read it. I'll eventually read it. But yeah, it's good, it's good. Okay. So and I hate that we're wrapping up our time together, but I do have one last question for you, Michelle. What is next for you, and how can the Black Writers Read community support you on this journey?

SPEAKER_01 59:41

What's next for me is waiting for my agent to wade through the mess of manuscript that I just gave her. Because like I said, I don't plot. And she's just like, okay, it's a lot of story here. So she you guess you gotta figure that out and go through. So that's what I'm I'm I'm waiting on and working on now. But I mean, just um, if you're talking about like read the book, if you hate the book, post the worst review ever. So people would be like, dang, is it that bad? Let me buy this book and see how bad it is. And so, I mean, it that's how it goes. So, yeah, do that. Get the book, write reviews, and and you'll get a because I already have a second book. Like, what happens after this is already brewed in my head. I'm ready to write that down. But I mean, you can't write it down if you only sold like two books.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

So also, too, I'm anticipating you sold more than two books because you've at least done book clubs.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

So yeah, yeah, more than five books. More than five books, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

So, Michelle, this was so much fun. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you so much for writing. Thank you so much for making the time to be on Black Riders Reading. Thank you so much for reaching out to me. This is the magic of social media because we you reached out to me well almost a year ago, I believe. You were booked, booked, book, booked.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

I was like, ooh, everybody trying to get on this podcast. Okay, let me try, let me see. I got a book you want to try to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Yes, which I am in the process of booking season seven right now, and I am booked through November already. It is insane, but it's it's a it's I'll I'll say this, it's a blessing because I know with some podcasts, getting guests is really hard. Me, I'm like having to like really sit down with my associate producer, Candace, and I'm just like, okay, what are we doing? Like, I'm gonna have a retreat with her in May to talk about because the podcast in terms of how it's growing, and it's just like, okay, like, and it's been now, it'll be seven years this September. And I'm just like, okay, how can I continue growing? Like, where's the stop gap? Because also, two, I'm still trying to grow supporters. So getting people on is not an issue. It's getting supporters, it's getting, you know, for this independently produced award-winning podcast. But I also know that I am in, but I I love it, but also because also two, we're colleagues and we've had people on each other's podcasts and they've been on mine. There's other black literary podcasts that exist. So I'm hoping everyone listens to all of them because I think we all have a different perspective that we are contributing to the larger conversation.

unknown 1:02:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

So no, this was fun. I enjoyed it. Yay! I love no polish.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

You get no polish from me. Yes. And people are like, oh, are you like, is this good? No. I'm like, this is a conversation. I'm like, this because people will be like, can I curse on here? Can I not? Yes. Like, it's for me, this is the author's space. Like, I I want this to be where y'all can be your authentic selves and shine.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Yeah, but I also have to remember I'm a few years away from retirement, so I got the I behave when people see and stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

I'll be real me about eight years. Oh, we definitely gonna have you back on then. Be like, Michelle is back in her 60s and be like, ooh, ooh, oh, this is the this is the Michelle we've been waiting for. Okay, my imaginary pearls. Um I'm clutching. Like, yes. So thank you so much, Michelle, for being on today. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Black Riders Read. Black Riders Read is available on all platforms. Please be sure to subscribe to Black Riders Read wherever you listen to your podcasts to receive each new episode once they are released. Also, please review the podcast as each action helps others to find us and it helps us continue to grow. I hope that you are so moved and encouraged to take your support of Blackwriters Read one step further and join us on Patreon. Thank you for championing this work and helping us to sustain this award winning independently produced virtual platform. To learn more, please visit BlackWritersReed.com. Thanks again for your support and for ensuring that Black Writers continue to matter.