SHRM's Education-to-Employment (E2) Initiative with Emily M. Dickens

In this episode, Elle O'Flaherty, Co-Chair of NCDA's Government Relations Committee, hosts a conversation with Emily M. Dickens, Chief of Staff, Head of Government Affairs, and Corporate Secretary for the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM). They discuss the challenges and opportunities in the current labor market, focusing on SHRM's Education-to-Employment (E2) Initiative, designed to bridge the talent gap through collaboration among various stakeholders including schools, employers, policymakers, and career development professionals. Emily emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning, and discusses the untapped potential in diverse workforce segments such as people with disabilities and formerly incarcerated individuals. She also underscores the role of artificial intelligence and demographic shifts in shaping the future workforce.

Elle O’Flaherty, JD, PCC, CCSP, ACCG is the Founder & CEO, Interlace Solutions Coaching. She is a speaker and coach known for her science-based and hyper-practical presentations, and a pioneer in inclusive leadership and neurodiverse workforce development with a specialization in ADHD coaching. 

Emily M. Dickens, J.D., is an accomplished attorney, strategist, and senior executive at the Society of Human Resource Management (SHRM) - the world’s largest HR trade association - where is serves as Chief of Staff, Head of Government Affairs and Corporate Secretary. In her role, Dickens oversees SHRM’s advocacy and policy agenda, guiding the work of the “A-Team,” a 300,000-member grassroots network of HR professionals who shape workplace policy nationwide. She has executive oversight for four divisions: corporate governance, government affairs and policy, legal and administrative affairs, and the SHRM Foundation.

Resources

SHRM Toolkits

Transcript

NCDA Podcast - SHRM
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Elle O'Flaherty: Hello, and welcome . I'm Ella o Flaherty, co-chair of ncda Government Relations Committee, and I'll be your host today. As career development professionals, we see firsthand how students, job seekers, and workers are navigating a labor market that often feels disconnected from their preparation and their potential.

Today we're taking a closer look at some of the biggest challenges and opportunities facing workers and workplaces today, rebuilding the education to employment pipeline and how our colleagues in the human resources or HR space are working to address them. Our guest today is Emily m Dickens, chief of Staff, head of Government Affairs, and Corporate Secretary for SHM.

I'm sure it needs no introduction, but that's the Society for Human Resources Management, which is one of the world's largest HR associations representing nearly 340,000 members who shaped the work lives of over 362 million people worldwide. And I'm sure our members have worked absolutely hand in hand with [00:01:00] many of theirs.

Emily leads SHR M'S Government affairs and global public policy work, and is also a champion of SHR M'S Education to employment or e squared initiative, which seeks to close the talent pipeline gaps through skills first, hiring apprenticeships, re-skilling, and greater collaboration across schools, employers, policy makers, and career development professionals.

Emily, I'd like to welcome you to the podcast today, and I'm really excited to hear more about this initiative. So let's start with a big picture from shr. M's. Vantage Point, what does the current education to employment pipeline look like and why does SHR RM believe it's broken? 

Emily Dickens: So thank you. , And it's a privilege here to represent the largest HR association in the world.

And it's why it's important to sharm. You know, I've been here for almost, , eight years, and the day we walked in the door, there was a talent issue. , It really was about getting talent into open jobs. Now it's about getting [00:02:00] talent into open jobs and getting the right talent. And why is our talent unprepared?

I used to work for a, , president of a system that used to say, when you graduate from a university, , you're prepared for , not just your first job. You're prepared for your last job. In some ways, yes. With the soft skills, which were power skills that we can talk about later. But in terms of the skill skills, those technical things, no longer because the world of work is changing so fast, and that's why our education to employment pipeline is what we call leaky busted and broken.

It is still the greatest in the world. We wanna say that, but there is lots of room for improvement. And we think about it from the K 12 aspect, the things that are no longer in school, uh, because time is spent teaching two exams and two other things. There's not enough time left to talk about careers and your future.

And what are those passion things that a student is interested in that could lead to entrepreneurship and employment later on. , We don't talk in, in higher ed, we [00:03:00] talk about the ships that internships and apprenticeships and things of that nature. But you know, I always say if a syllabus is older than two years, it's too old.

Because the hope is that a professor is meeting with people who are already in the industry, that they're preparing the students for, and talking every day about the changes that are being seen and updating that content so the students are getting their best content. And then lastly, we still have people who are what we call untapped talent.

People with disabilities, people who are formerly incarcerated, who are struggling to, to get the dignity of work that they're owed. Everyone is entitled to the dignity of work, but that's because workplaces aren't prepared to welcome them. In a way that can take advantage of the skills that they do have because they can't see past whatever the issue is that they have.

So that's why it's important. HR professionals, you know, a lot of people have been focusing on the pipeline issues on both sides, but what's missing at the heart of it are career professionals, [00:04:00] HR professionals, because we're the ones that are guiding you into those roles. We're the ones that have those roles open, and no one's asking us what industry really needs.

Elle O'Flaherty: Everything you just said I absolutely know is going to be music to our members' ears. , It aligns completely with what we are doing at NCDA. And so I'm, I'm really excited to delve into this talk some more. Mm-hmm. , So the, it sounds like the e squared initiative is central to shr m's response to what you called,

rusty, leaky and broken, is that what you said? 

Emily Dickens: Leak, busted. Broken leaky. Busted. Broken, 

Elle O'Flaherty: leaky Busted and broken. Yes. Which really I had a response to that. I really like it. Mm-hmm. Um, can you walk us through what Equa is designed to do and what would success a success look like if it achieves its goals, which hopefully it will.

Emily Dickens: So I'll say this, just a little bit of background. So my background is in higher education, higher education advocacy. 

Elle O'Flaherty: Hmm. 

Emily Dickens: And so coming to SH rm, I was al concerned that where could we make a difference? Because my CEO's background is in the same, he's done a couple other things, but we were both coming from a [00:05:00] higher ed affiliated association when we came here.

And we've always said that there is a link between the education and employment pipeline, and we were filling all these other roles for our members and we realized that's. Some point we would have to get really serious about this, and the time is really now. And so what we're saying is that you can't have the workforce of the future.

You can't have the workforce of today without this kind of inextricable link between education and employment. And so what can SHRM do? Well, , there are three things we say awareness. We say advocacy and we say action. The three A's. So awareness, we are talking to everyone we can who is in this space that's tied to the space that can seal some of the leaky busted and broken pipes in this pipeline.

We're talking to them and we're finding out what's working. Because often there are things that are working regionally and locally, but with the right investment and awareness could be, , replicated across the country [00:06:00] or in other similar areas of the country where we need to fill those gaps. So awareness is quick, is really important.

We need to know that you can't do it alone, and we need to be aware of what our partners are doing and figuring out how we can assist advocacy. There is legislation at the state, local, and federal level. That we all need to be supporting or tweaking or improving or developing, that can help close some of the gaps that we're talking about in the pipeline.

And so that's the second A. And the last is action is where we can take action. And so with some of our existing entities and projects, for us, action was getting in front of our 340,000 members. Virtually, and then in person in front of the 25,000 people at our annual conference and announce that this was a priority.

And if you're interested in this, if you're looking for talent and you're frustrated because the students that are graduating from your local trade schools or graduating from the local community college or four year institution, or even people with [00:07:00] ge with a a, a diploma if they're graduating and not meeting your needs, that you can't help.

Your local economy 'cause the talent is not there. If that's frustrating. You making people know that SHRM is here to help them in action by connecting them to the resources in their area. So we've got a big footprint and the ability to leverage our over 500 chapters across the country and leverage our members and individuals to talk about this issue is important and that's why we're in it.

Elle O'Flaherty: And did this, uh, disconnect, this sort of frustration of finding talent , and matching it to the open positions. Did this bubble up organically from your members? 

Emily Dickens: It's what we hear, and I would say, yeah, it did organically. Look, we knew this talent issue. Even as we saw the unemployment numbers differ than what they have been in the past few years, we knew this was an issue.

And we also knew that skills was an issue. So during the first Trump administration, there was a group put pulled [00:08:00] together by the administration called the American Workforce Policy Advisory Board, and it had 25 CEOs of major entities including app. All and others as well as SH RM and the Chamber and National Association of Manufacturers.

And they met a number of times over a period of time. It was co-chaired by Ivanka Trump and the, secretary of Commerce Wilber Ross at the time. And the, and one of the, the outputs from this group was the skills. Issue that we have, the fact that we need to reskill and upskill people constantly and people have to stop thinking that it's lifelong learning.

Mm-hmm. Like, just because I have the skill today and I'm really good at this job doesn't mean I have to stop here. Because tomorrows we all saw, we all see now with, aI tomorrow, things can change and you gotta be flexible and agile and able to welcome the new opportunities. And so , we've seen this and we've been thinking about it and noodling on it that we're not solving, even as we saw, we had bodies available to go into roles.[00:09:00] 

They're not the right bodies because they don't have the skills. And so again, that means that the students, wherever the people are getting their skills from. They're not getting the skills that they need to get into the workplace of today, and you're gonna see this expand. We are seeing that a lot of entry-level roles, organizations are trying to see how much of that can be done with new technology.

So that means you in the future are going to have to come out of K 12, and you're going to have to come out of college with the skillset of maybe someone who's lower middle management as opposed to entry level. That means there has to be a direct connection between what that workforce needs at middle or a mid range in their organization and what those students are being taught.

That means you need to be graduating with certain certifications. And when you talk about the action, the a. Of the three A's the actions. You know, shr m's. Been doing that for some time with HR professionals. There are professors and institutions across the country who teach our SHRM [00:10:00] curriculum. Their students then do an internship that's required, which allows that student that immediately upon graduation they can sit for the SHRM certification, which normally, you know, if they're not going through that type of program, it would take three to five years before you'd be eligible to sit for that certification.

So the ability to graduate and within months have that certification, puts you at a level now where you can be considered. For not entry level, but the next step because we know that we're seeing in many industries that the entry level issue is going to be, , something that from, especially for students who are coming out of K 12 and coming out of college.

Elle O'Flaherty: Everything you just said really aligns with what our members are also seeing, , on the ground. And that sort of future thinking too, I think is so critical. We funded research through NCDA showing that the jobs of today, in the next six or 10 years, many of those jobs will, change or, and new jobs will come online that we [00:11:00] haven't even considered, we've never even thought about because.

If they don't exist now, they don't. Um, so that kind of flexibility and lifelong learning, I think is such a critical component that you're touching on and something that I'm very excited that SH RM is putting its significant weight behind because it really is so important. . One of the things when I was doing research for this interview, and I have to say you, uh, everything you talk about is completely fascinating, especially for those of us who are interested in career development.

But one thing that you shared on LinkedIn was your own research SHR M'S Research showing that 49% of companies reported leaving positions unfilled due to skills gaps, while at the same time more than half of recent graduates are either unemployed or. Underemployed. So again, pinpointing this mismatch between, , skills and students, what can schools do

and how are you talking to them, um, to help make students work ready and potentially how could our members help to influence that realignment? 

Emily Dickens: Well, so this is all part of our a the first a [00:12:00] awareness, right? Because traditionally people wouldn't think that a HR association would be partnering with institutions of, primary learning , of K 12.

But I have to say, I have a great partnership. My husband is a K eight administrator, right? So Oh, cool. That's what he and I talk about all the time. Is, for years we've heard people talk about music, especially in inner city, right? Music, leaving the school and arts, leaving the school, but we, and you have people who are advocating for that, and I love it.

I was that kid that played clarinet. What we don't have enough people talking about is career training, leaving the school. And so, and we all remember middle school was the coolest thing about middle school was even if you never wanted to cook, like home ec, 'cause home ec taught you more things than just how to cook.

Right? And even if you didn't want to become a mechanic taking, , shop. And being a girl and think about it, girl, everybody could take shop, taught you some basic things about changing a tire to right? And then for that [00:13:00] young man who really loved it, then he took shop two and shop three. Like he, that, those were his electives, not having.

That in our schools and those direct connections. You know, I always think my dad was a mechanic, and I always joke about, you know, I had a car that in 2002, , when I'm in law school, my dad could go under the hood and fix it when it knocks off, right? Today, there's no way my dad, who would've been in his nineties, nine, but there's no way the skillset he had then would be applicable.

He could not be a mechanic of today, because there's a computer up under the hood of my Volvo, right? So when you, you know, it's, and so if you just look there, you know that, that. Training, allowing those young men and women to graduate from high school knowing how to use the computer technology that is under the hood of all these luxury cars we have now and had the basic cars.

Almost every car no longer has, , a regular motor there. I think these are the things we need to be thinking about. What are the basics We, let me just say this, A college degree is important. [00:14:00] It's not for everyone. And sometimes we over induc, we get excited about something in this country and we just go all the way.

Yeah. And we did that. , And what it did is we sold that story and it's great family said, yes, I want my child to do better than me. A college education is what can help them. But you know, I grew up in New York City. I have friends that work for the MTA who are very skilled. They came right outta college.

They went right back to the MTA heck, they're like about to retire and have a pension and then take on a whole other career, right? We don't tell those stories right about those traditional blue gray collar jobs that help us run our lives. That help us for, without them, we wouldn't be there. , We joke about the plumber who's under your sink and you can see his backside.

We have all these jokes about that. Right? But that, but the plumber's probably making more than you. They car, the plumber, the car mechanic. Right. They're all making more than you. The [00:15:00] salesperson who convinces us to spend our money, who based on commissions is probably making more than us too. We don't talk enough about those roles.

We don't talk up about them, and the fact that we couldn't live our lives and enjoy our livelihoods. Without these people here, , there was lots of discussion a few months ago about Walmart paying their managers in six figures, their store, their, their store managers in six. , We joke and laugh about that, but I think a lot of us grew up with a friend who worked at McDonald's after school and then McDonald's U.

Pick them up when they graduated and next thing you know, they were running their own McDonald's, right? They're somebody else's boss. So we've gotta be more aware and talk more aware about that. And it is us encouraging our colleagues in the K 12 arena to look again at the curriculum, figure out how we can infuse more entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship into the discussions with young children and encourage them to, to create businesses on their own.

And also how we can get the skills, critical skills that we need that they're [00:16:00] not getting earlier. Talking about, my husband and I were just talking about this, talking about career much earlier. Yes, in your child's education is so important and so why not? And there are tons of people and organizations that would come in free and spend time and donate time so that they can expose students at a younger age to what we need to do.

I think Boeing does, does an excellent job. Some years ago, I used to work for a Thurgood Marshall College Fund, and so our students would get internships in corporate America where Boeing started grabbing students not as juniors. They started grabbing students as freshmen and sophomores because, and then letting those students intern every year successively.

At Boeing, by the time they graduated, they knew the culture, they knew what products were in queue. They knew the skills required, they, and they understood the importance of continued learning. We've gotta start earlier with everything. So that would be my first thing, is that you've got to start as early as possible, and we have got to infuse the discussion of careers and what work [00:17:00] looks like much earlier in the discussion of our children's education.

Elle O'Flaherty: I don't think I could possibly agree with you anymore. And I know that our listeners at home couldn't see me, but I was vigorously nodding. , Having gone to a high school where the majority of people did not go to college, and we did have an extremely action, uh, active trade component, trade school component to it.

Um, it, in my opinion, it really is access to, . High paid, high skilled jobs that , are critically important for a lot of folks. , My background is also, I, , specialize in working with individuals with a DH adhd. Hmm. And for many people in our community, traditional white collar jobs are not a way to find job satisfaction.

And instead, these kinds of jobs working with our hands where there's a lot of movement , or other non-traditional jobs, including entrepreneurship, , really is the way that we find satisfaction , and we thrive. So. Everything you said, yay. And I know I'm not the only one. All of our members will be stand up, standing up and cheering.

, So let me ask you, , something else. Mm-hmm. Your, . Career development professionals often work with some of [00:18:00] these populations we're talking about that face barriers to employment, like veterans, uh, , new arrivals or immigrants to our country, people with disabilities, as I mentioned, , and those who have justice involvement in our returning incarcerated residents.

How does SH RM focus on untapped talent like these, and, , how can it connect with career development work in this area? Woo. 

Emily Dickens: So I 

Elle O'Flaherty: like 

Emily Dickens: that reaction. I'm excited. So one of the, the visions that reports to me is the S Strong foundation. It's a separate 5 0 1 C3. And and a lot of our focus over the last five to seven years has been on these untapped talent pools because when you have a workforce participation.

And you have more jobs available than bodies. Everybody that could possibly work deserves consideration. Yes. And we saw that professionals, HR professionals, it's very easy to continue to tap into your own personal pipeline. So if I went to X school, I'll just keep going back to X school to get my, my people that need to fill the role.

What happens [00:19:00] when it dries up? And so what we realized is you've gotta start teaching HR professionals and others, people, managers, how you prepare workplaces for people who are different. It's really interesting to hear you and your experience for A DHD. You know, I, I always think about people who are maybe on the spectrum who are so detailed.

I could easily, there are so many jobs that I know in my head I could. , Get that type of talent for, because I know there won't be a number out of place or a, piece out of place because I know the focus that comes with that particular population. I personally know that people who are military affiliated, because I worked on a college campus seven miles from Fort Bragg for over five years, I know that population comes with a lot of additional skills that can be a bonus to my workforce too.

And I also know that they're usually coming with a. Spouse or a partner who has a transferrable, uh, transient degree like nursing or education because they needed to be the trailing spouse. So they needed a, a degree that could easily [00:20:00] transfer where they are. So I think the number one thing is, when I talk about that a again, awareness is our HR and career professionals have got to become more aware about all of the positive things that come along with these populations.

We don't talk enough about the loyalty that comes from people who are justice impacted the fact that you took a chance on them. And you gave them an opportunity when others said they wouldn't have that opportunity creates a level of loyalty and stickiness with that particular person that's not something you, someone you have to typically worry about.

Um, when it comes to retention. Because that fact that you took a chance on them. So for each of those populations, it's important to understand how you can make a positive tie for what is valuable to them and what could be valuable to you. But that means you've gotta start studying those populations and figure out which roles in your organization could really be of a benefit to them.

And so again, I talk about lifelong learning. It is incumbent upon anyone who considers themselves as hiring people. [00:21:00] So that is not just your HR professionals, it's not just your career professional. It is your people manager. When you're looking at talent, you need to know that you can pick from so many different boxes, not just the traditional boxes, and know what things come in those non-traditional boxes that you need to be focusing on.

And so that would be my advice, and I know I feel like this, but I can, I, 'cause of our timeframe, five to seven years. So I can tell you under the first Trump administration, you might recall, the First Step Act passes in, , late 2018. I think this, so it passes. We get a call.

From a foundation that says, now that this is passed, what is Shom gonna do about it? I said, I don't do criminal justice reform, so this, this is not something we've been advocating on. And they said, but these people, in order for us to make sure recidivism doesn't become an issue, they need jobs. So why wouldn't SHRM step up here?

So that's where we've stepped in, where there's an opportunity. So for us, we started the second, chance initiative with our foundation, which gave HR professionals [00:22:00] toolkits to help their workforce prepare to offer jobs to these particular people. And why do they need to prepare their workforce?

Because here's what happened. I hire. Um, of someone who is just as impacted. They're minding their business. They're loyal. They love what we're doing. They're excited to be with me, thanks to the internet. The person who works beside them finds out that this person was just as impact. They complain that they're fearful, or how can you do this?

And they're surprised. So how do you change that scenario? Well, as the HR professional, as the CEO, you say, this is a workplace that gives second chances. So you may from time to time find that you're sitting next to someone who could be just as impacted. Everyone deserves a second chance as long as they're doing their job.

As long as they are civil in the workplace, as long as we're all working together and getting the job done, there's no reason to treat that person any differently. And you from the top down, your leadership has to say you're committed. You could say we are committed to hiring people with [00:23:00] disabilities.

We're partners. , We are members of the CEO Commission on, , disability employment, and that's important. We're NDSS and Voya we're founding members with them. It's to making sure that people with disabilities have the same rights to , the dignity of work that their lives and livelihoods are just as important as anyone else.

And if you want to develop a workplace where this population can thrive, you've gotta inform your existing population that this is a priority, and then give them the skills they need to work closely with these individuals. 

Elle O'Flaherty: If we were in person together, I'm pretty sure I would hug you and then I would have to talk to one of your HR professionals about my behavior.

So I'm glad we're not in person, but I just resonate with so much of what you said, and particularly I love that not only are you, , advocating for this kind of, , awareness, but also the toolkits which give it sounds like really practical, actionable. Ways that people can implement this, , which so often I feel like that is the connector piece [00:24:00] that sometimes movements like this miss.

And I think that's so critical. 

Emily Dickens: So what you're, lemme just say one thing and the toolkits for the most part are free. So we made , a conscious decision. Small and mid-sized business off often offer for opportunities that others don't, but they don't, they're not able to afford some of the resources. And so again, if you're the largest HR association in the world, we're mission focused.

You know, now look, no money, no mission, and vice versa. But the issue is there are opportunities for us to give back in ways that really can make an impact. And this is one of those ways. And so there's. Content there. That's why the 5 0 1 C3 with the foundation where we offer much of that content for free, for anyone who wants to do better, that that understands the importance of making sure that your workplace is as inclusive as possible for anyone who wants the dignity of work.

Elle O'Flaherty: Wow. So these are publicly available, not just to SHARMs members. Yes. Yes. 

Emily Dickens: On the foundation 

Elle O'Flaherty: [00:25:00] site, I'm gonna absolutely make sure that those are in our show notes. So anyone who wants to check that out, I encourage you to. I know I will be. Um, thank you so much for letting us know about that tool. Mm-hmm. So what it sounds like you're really doing with this initiative is.

A lot of coalition building across, um, it sounds like K 12 higher ed institutions. Um, you certainly, you all reached out to us, which I really appreciate. Mm-hmm. , Workplaces, workers, and, , organizations and employers. That is a big coalition to try to build, but a lot of different viewpoints and competing interests.

Yeah. What kind of a reception have you been getting and what's been resonating with different, members of this coalition? 

Emily Dickens: So 

Elle O'Flaherty: I will 

Emily Dickens: tell you, we did a dinner, our annual conference, which is in June. , We were going to do a soft launch there with a panel of people who are smarter than me who work in those areas, and we knew that was a goal prior to that.

We bought them together for dinner in DC to tell them we wanted to do this, we wanted to do it together, and we know we can't do this alone. The power to [00:26:00] convene the power of an invitation is so , people underestimated so important. The idea is I don't want you to do anything different right now because we're in the awareness phase.

What I want you to do is tell me what you're doing and how can we help and how, if HR is aware of this, how we can do a better job of leveraging our members to make sure that we're getting people skilled and into the right jobs, and we're closing and sealing these leaky, busted broken pipes. And so that's really where we are right now.

And you're right, we are reaching out to pe. Anyone that we think is in this space that we didn't know about, we are reaching out to them to say, how can we help? You know, how can we work together? How can we elevate what you're doing? One of the things I would love to see once our platform is done and it's up, we've got the Equa site up there, but the platform should be anywhere, can go there and find out who else is doing this work, who is, who's gotten funded to do an [00:27:00] initiative that talks about closing a pipeline , and it's important.

I truly believe when you look at what's going on locally and regionally. There are many great projects going on that are probably working, but they don't have the funds to, to talk about it. And , the more we can get it out there and share what they're doing with others, and then others can see whether that works for them.

And then imagine a coalition of groups who are dealing with the same exact issue working together. And it's not SHRM leading that coalition, but because SHRM made the connection, the power of using your network, , I, I say people all the time, your network is your net worth. And I absolutely believe that.

And when you share your networks, I think your network grows even more. And so it's critically important. And I will say as someone who had worked in higher ed, I worked on a college campus. I've, , worked for a university system. I'm an immediate past board chair of my alma mater, right? So I've seen all facets , of higher education.

I am particularly concerned [00:28:00] about the experience on our campuses and then when I hear from my husband in K 12 about what the career services office looks like today, there was a time where career services offices on our campuses were also available for alumni. Mm-hmm. Right. And so, you know, I thought about it when the jobs started to be endang, the federal job layoffs began.

And I remember thinking that there were so many former students at my alma mater who worked for the federal government, and , I remember thinking, is there any way that our career services office would be able to help them? And no. Because the same amount of staff they had there when I was there, they got, yeah.

Right. And so what does the career services office of the future look like? And so during my retreat with my government affairs team, I said, , if we, you know, if money wasn't an option, what would be a way for us to get back and help? Can you imagine retired HR professionals?

Fanning out across this country, [00:29:00] volunteering their services at career services offices to do trainings, to do prep, to be on site, to be mentors on site. Can you imagine that? And yes, I think our members would welcome that. Yeah, I wanna dream big and say, where is it that we can help fill in the gaps?

And then I'd love for someone to be saying. This is what the career services of Office of the Future looks like, right? University campuses are the heart of their communities, and they serve not just the students but the neighborhood, and imagining a neighbor being able to go on that campus and leverage the services of career services because the individual doesn't have that.

So there are just, I just think there's, and that's just one part of this pie, right? When we were earlier, , in 20 18, 20 19, we. Partnered with the National School Board Association. People were like, why would you do that? Well, we saw that the skills that used to be soft skills, we call 'em power skills, weren't being taught in schools and we know we needed to rely on those more than ever.

Those are the only [00:30:00] consistent things when we think about the skills that people get now in school. The one, the things that will last with you, you know, sharing. Being a collaborator, being able to critically think there are just these key skills, being a team player that kids that you learn early on. I say everything you need to learn, know you learned in kindergarten is a great book about that.

I love that book. You learn how to share your lunch and share your seat and hold the hands of your partner. All of those things are important now and will be important no matter whether we're using AI or other tools. And so when I think of K 12, that was an opportunity for us to partner there by.

Helping , to co-write and research and do this research and launch it with them. So there are all these ways that we can all work together. And so no, Shar doesn't have this unlimited budget. What we have is unlimited hope and unlimited dreams that this could be better for us and for our country. 

Elle O'Flaherty: That is amazing.

And I would say that we as NCDA, very much, uh, if I can, um, without [00:31:00] any authorization speak on behalf of our organization, we very much share those same hopes and dreams. It's exactly what you're talking about. Our members. I hear from a lot of them. I haven't worked in the K 12 or the higher ed space, but my colleagues who I've spoken to, they are, , absolutely swamped with the number of students who are seeking their services.

And yet , the funding and the number of people working in the career services doesn't go up. , And I agree with you with that challenge. Some of the things that we've been advocating for are things like the Jobs Act. , We OA, which of course is how we get funding for, , community workplace, , help that sort of a thing.

And so exactly what you're talking about, we would love to be part of those conversations. It's so, so critical and, um, the first almost 20 years of my career as a practicing attorney, and so I'm really, LinkedIn quite a bit with some of the folks doing career development in law firms and some of the folks who are doing career services in law schools.

And it is such a, fundamentally, in my opinion, different, experience for those folks [00:32:00] because law schools tend to be one of the major drivers of income for universities, for alumni donations, for that sort of a thing. And so they tend to have more of an emphasis on not only helping current students, which is very important for their rankings of course, but also alumni.

Mm-hmm. Because that influences their donations and all sorts of things. Um. I just see such a different experience and I see that the alums have such a different experience with career services. If we were able to make that kind of transformation and improvement, I can't imagine how much it would benefit, of course, individuals, but also employers and workplaces.

So I. I always say that ncda a's platform, our policy platform, you can basically boil down into yay jobs and, , which everyone can get behind. Mm-hmm. It's such a universal thing and what you're describing seems to fall in the same category. It's something that everyone can get behind trying to develop workers and having folks who are ready , to contribute and exactly in the right place at the right time for employers.

Um. So let me ask you something and here's where I'd like you to pull out your crystal [00:33:00] ball, if you don't mind. Okay. Looking ahead, what trends, whether it is technology, demographic, or policy driven, do you think will shape the workforce over the next, let's say, five to 10 years? And how should career professionals prepare for that?

Emily Dickens: Alright, so I'm gonna say number one, I've mentioned it a couple of times here. Artificial intelligence. Um, yes. The next level of that, right. , Of artificial intelligence. And I boil it down to, to this, there's a restaurant I love called Chopped. It's a salary. Me too. So there used to be only one I would go to in Union Station.

So where I live in Northern Virginia, I get excited. I look across the street, they're building a Chopped. And so the first day I walk into Chopped, it looks totally different than the one in Union Station because in Union Station I'd walk in, there was a three cashiers and they take my order and then I can watch the people behind them make my salad.

When I walk into this brand new [00:34:00] Chopped, there are six machines. Hmm. Right. I can still see the team in the back making my salad, but the machine allows me to order right there. And in my head, I think that the people who used to be behind the cash register are now the people who are feeding the data into the machine, who are doing the maintenance for the machine, who are building the machine, right?

And so everybody should think about every time you see a job that no longer exists know that there is another job that has been created as a result of that job, no longer existing. So I know it's a positive, but that means that you've got to make sure that you're getting the new skills so that you could be eligible for that new job that's created.

And there's almost an over-reliance on your current employer to give you those skills. So I think with AI, as we talk about this, we've gotta be more engaged in our own career trajectory. And understand that there are new jobs that are gonna be [00:35:00] created once, we can't think of right now, but we need to be prepared for that.

That's number one. Then demographic shifts. You know, as much as we've talked about K 12 today and higher ed, we do know there's a period of time where , our numbers are down. Our population numbers in this country in terms of new births are down and but people are living longer. And thriving longer, and they're the largest percentage of growth.

The group with the largest percentage of growth in the workplace over the next few years, 75 and older. Mm-hmm. So. And they wanna work, you know, now they do wanna work and it's how do you find a space for them? How do you acknowledge the skills that they have, which are helpful to all generations, and how do you, , make it work into their schedule and your schedule?

So I think that's sort of demographic ships, , the fact that no matter what we're talking about as it relates to i and d in this country, we are a more diverse country. And we are a country that does have populations that are not native [00:36:00] us . So how do you get them to thrive in the workplace too? I think that's a clear issue too.

And then again, this growing on , this growing interest in continued lifelong learner. I read all the time like, I wanna learn something new all the time. And what we did here at SHRM is we didn't run from ai, we ran to it. So everyone who works for us, initially when we heard about this, we said, we'll pay the $20 for you to learn how to play on it.

Just go home, play on it, figure out what it could do for you. And then six months later we said, okay, now that you've played on it and we're still paying for it, find something to do with it that relates to your job. And now over a year later, when we do our bonus reviews this year, we're going to bonus people who found ways to create efficiencies and to help them do a better job with the use of this technology.

We have fully embraced it, and I'd say, and that's all part of lifelong learning. We have taken our staff along this journey together to learn a new skill. [00:37:00] And we'll continue to do that. We actually shut down for a couple of hours one day where the entire organization got trained on using this tool. So lifelong learning's important and then credentialing.

So we graduate, we've got our jd, I, I, my jds always out there. , I'm proud of it. It was something I wanted to, but, you know, . If, even if it's no credential, there's probably another skill set or area where I need to get some additional information. And there are tons of credentialing opportunities, short form classes that people can take and things that today you may not think is useful in what you currently do, but you never know when you can use it, but, and just having that additional information.

And then there is a rising demand for career professionals at all levels. People life coaching is a big deal, right? Um, life guiding. And part of that is not just how to do your finances and to maintain your relationships with your siblings and your friends and, and to take care of your mental health.

Part of that is. Your career trajectory? , I had an [00:38:00] amazing executive coach and if you told me, , years ago, I was like, I don't need executive coach. I feel very blessed that I had the same coach for four years, where you know, every other, Tuesday morning, 6:00 AM we're on the phone talking about my career trajectory and the things I wanna do.

I understand that's a privilege and everyone doesn't have an employer that'll pay for that, but the ability to be able as career. Coaches and professionals to be able to make a bigger difference in the lives of people and help guide them in this uncertain time is nothing but space and opportunity for individuals like you and others who are doing this work.

But you're gonna need people who are able, you know, we're getting more about ROI to show success and to show that you figured this out, and that means as career professionals. You're gonna have to figure it out. And that means you're gonna have to do the lifelong learning and be the ones who are attending , and being around.

So, long answer, but those are the things that I think we should be watching. 

Elle O'Flaherty: Great answer. From my perspective. That is one of the neatest approaches I've heard to integrating AI into a workplace and it's, it's [00:39:00] very impressive. . I'm also the kind of the through line of what I'm hearing is it's, it's interesting promoting, , curiosity and an openness to, to change to different ideas in different positions.

And also on a macro level, what you're really describing by getting people engaged in the workplace, , making sure people stay engaged and especially in roles that fuel them. I really see that as an opportunity to positively impact our communities and our country. 'cause having more people who find life meaning through work and who are really energized and find joy in their work, can only , in my opinion, benefit us as a society.

Emily Dickens: Absolutely. You've heard me say dignity of work a couple of times, right? I just think the human right now, we, we want the dignity of work, right? And we're also going into a time period where everything seems to be based on technology, this AI thing. But I was in Germany [00:40:00] recently and , one of the presenters said, it's also about advanced interaction action.

People want to connect with others and. They want to connect their passions to others that have the same passions and work with them and be around them. There are opportunities for us to work better and stronger together with the technology. At shrm, we call it AI Plus. Hi is the ROI. Our human intelligence is amazing.

Our brains, we don't use much of our brain. This, this is an opportunity for us to use more of our brains. And for us to really be thinking about how we can lean into our passions for our next career, because there are so many jobs out here that haven't been created yet. Imagine being the person that leans into your passion.

Creates a business and creates jobs that we didn't think of tomorrow that don't need the technology, that really need that advanced interaction of humans doing the job and [00:41:00] doing the work. So I know there's lots of negative going around right now about. Jobs and the future of jobs in this country and all of those.

And I would just say, think about all the jobs that will be created that we don't know about. Think about all the businesses and, and entrepreneurs that will come out of this moment, this new big bang. , And I think it's, I'm excited about it to be a part of it, but I also want us to make sure we're prepared for it.

Elle O'Flaherty: This has been such a powerful conversation and, , we're both DC based, so I am absolutely gonna ask you to ledge at some point. I know you're a busy person, so if you can work out it, hopefully it will. But, , let me ask you Sure. If you can leave our members with one Call to action, something they can do in their school or communities or workplaces to advance the goals of E Squared, what would it be?

Woo. Just a small question. I know. 

Emily Dickens: You know what I say? Do a better job of talking about work. Right. , We come [00:42:00] to work, we don't talk about work. You know, our students K 12, they look at the teacher, they don't know, my husband's Mr. Seller, they don't know how Mr. Sellers became AP sellers.

Right, right. I think we've gotta do a better job of telling our stories. We don't do a good enough job about that, and it's why we kind of look at people in big swaths. Um, I was on the phone with one of my big sister sorority sisters this morning and she's talking about the number of, , black women who based on this big number are outta work right now.

And I said to her, we gotta dig into the data. And we can't paint everyone with a monolith because there are blue collar workers in there, gray collar workers and white collar workers. Right? And when people see everyone doesn't have the same experience of having worked for Fortune five. It's not the same trajectory.

And I think the problem is we assume a good job. Is one where it's working for one of those fortune fives and that's the only job, and it's not, you and I both know that there are tons of associations that I knew nothing about in [00:43:00] college and didn't know about in high school. Yes, you and I know there are a bunch of things you can do with a jd.

They don't require you going to a courtroom. We don't talk enough about our work and what that work entails and that talking about it will help a light bulb go off. For not just you, but for others who are thinking about what work will look like for them. So tell your story. Share what work looks like for you.

I'm one of those people I hate to like, I don't wanna show off and talk about what I do for a living and things like that. And my CEO said to me, , if you don't share some of this on your personal social media and not just LinkedIn, your little cousins or their friends, they never get to see what work could look like for them.

That is much different than what they expect. And so talk about your work. Tell your stories because you never know who you could inspire and who you can help by your story, tell your story. 

Elle O'Flaherty: That is such important and powerful advice. [00:44:00] You have such important things to share and I can't begin to tell you how much it was.

My pleasure to talk to you today. I hope you'll consider coming back because I would love to ask you. Even more questions. , For all of our listeners, we've been talking to Emily m Dickens, as I mentioned, the Chief of Staff, head of Government Affairs, and Corporate Secretary of SH rm. , Please do check out the show notes about the e squared initiative.

It is already, it is opening my mind to lots of ideas and I think it'll help you too. And particularly those toolkits that Emily mentioned. , I think those are gonna be incredibly helpful. Again, I am speaking out of turn, but we would love to partner more closely on this with SH rm and , I hope that we can continue the conversation, Emily.

Emily Dickens: Great. Me too. Thank you again for the privilege of being here with you today. 

Elle O'Flaherty: Oh, it was absolutely my honor. As I said, thank you so much and thanks to our listeners. I hope that this gave you lots of, , great ideas.