DEI Symposium Series - Disrupting Racism in the Workplace

This episode is part of the DEI Symposium Series, developed from the DEI Symposium presented at the 2025 NCDA Global Career Development Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

In this episode, Dr. Frank Gorritz discusses the important topic of racism in the workplace as part of the 2025 DEI symposium series. Dr. Gorritz emphasizes the need to address not just individual instances of racism but also systemic issues including white supremacy culture and its covert manifestations. He highlights the impact of microaggressions on minoritized employees and introduces the Theory of Work Adjustment to explain how workplace dynamics affect these employees. Dr. Gorritz also stresses the importance of career counselors creating a safe space for clients to discuss their experiences and feelings about their workplaces. This discussion reiterates the value of addressing political, social, and identity-related issues in career counseling. Several resources are recommended for further exploration on the topic.

Frank Gorritz, PhD, LPC, LMHC, NCC, ACS, QS is a counselor educator in Florida.

Resources

dRworksbool (2021). White supremacy culture. https://www.dismantlingracism.org/white-supremacy-culture.html

Iyer, D. (2022). Social change now: A guide for reflection and connection. Thick Press.

Jones, K. & Okun, T. (2001). Dismantling racism: A workbook for social change groups. dRworksBook.

Transcript

Career Practitioner Conversations Podcast

National Career Development Association

DEI Symposium Series – Disrupting Racism in the Workplace with Dr. Frank Gorritz

November 25, 2025

Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA, director of Professional Development, and this episode continues our 2025 DEI symposium series with a conversation about racism in the workplace. I'm here with Dr. Frank Gortz, a counselor educator in Florida, and uh, thanks for being here, Frank.

It's good to have you here Again, it's awesome to be here. I always love doing this with you. Thanks so much. I'm excited to get this one kicked off. So , let's start with some background information. Why did you pick this topic and how do you see it fitting into this series as a whole? Sure. I mean, it makes me think back to the overall theme for the conference of 2025, which was, you know, evolving and adapting career development in revolutionary times.

And I think a lot of times, you know, there's some conversation about racism in the workplace, right? We talk about how maybe there's like basic microaggressions, we have a racist coworker, or. A racist boss, but I don't think we ever really talk about racist systems in the workplace and what that actually looks like as we are adapting career development to really consider for those minority stresses  in the workplace.

And there's a reason to that as well that, you know, I want to get into one of the reasons why I think this is important. Is because it's about, you know, white supremacy in the workplace, and I think white supremacy in particular throws people off because when we hear this term, we think, okay, we think about KK, K, we think about like white nationalists.

We think about folks who are overtly racist, right? But that's not what white supremacy is. White supremacy is an ideology. And an ideology is not as covert as people think it is, right? So, um, I study discourse analysis and something that's really interesting when we think about discourse, right? Our social conversations, the topics that are on our minds, the language we share, all of that is guided by ideology, even if it's unconscious.

Very much so that when we take facts for granted. Because it's just the automatic, right? That's what I'm talking about there of the underlying discourse and ideology. Sometimes that can happen in the workplace too, in in ways we just don't realize. And so that was one of the major reasons why I was inspired by this topic and wanted to share it for the symposium.

Oh, thank you.  That's really helpful. And I think that really does tie it into some of the other topics. So those of you that are out there listening, be sure you take a look at all the topics in this series and, and how they all do really work together  to bring us all  up to speed with what we need to be thinking about in, in, in these times.

 So Frank, in your session, you shared. Of the term work adjustment and the need to focus on work adjustment, what is that  and why is it important when  when dealing with these issues in the workplace?  So when I think about, you know, the Theory of Work adjustment, which is by d and Quist, if I'm not mistaken.

 They really talk about this idea that we really need to start thinking about how the workplace interacts with you as a system. So in their basic terminology. They basically go into the idea of, Hey, we have reinforcers and we have non reinforcers in the workplace. Right? There are gonna be some times where you're happy and your employer's happy with you too.

Okay, great. Awesome. Sometimes you're both not happy with each other, and that happens too. And sometimes that'll lead to quitting, right? Or even firing. Sometimes the employee's happy, but the employer's not happy with the employee. And that's where I think white supremacy plays a huge role. Because one of the biggest things that I tend to notice in workplace hostility and workplace violence is the idea of gaslighting and the underlying, the undertone of, we don't want you here.

And a lot of times too white cultural norms are tied into that. To make employees of color feel uncomfortable or to also maybe make them feel like they don't have support or the resources they need in the hopes that they quit, right? Because let's think about it, right? If we get an employee to quit, then we don't have to pay them unemployment so we can drive them out.

It won't be a big deal. It's easier to say that they quit on their own accord and will be, you know, hands off free from that person's decision. But we can make it super hard on them until they give up.  And so we notice a lot of that happening just across various workplaces. I don't even think there's like a specific workplace that I have in mind, or like type of workplace.

I think what's interesting about this is that is it can happen all across the board. Whether you work in retail especially  or whether you work in food industry, um, whether you work even in legal settings like, or even office settings, right?  Corporation settings, academic settings, they, they all, I think sometimes these unspoken norms show up and sometimes they can be weaponized against, um, employees of color.

And so that was another major basis for this presentation, and I think that's where work adjustment especially plays a role because career counselors out there need to really start thinking about  what are the expectations around how we expect people of color to just navigate  racial hostility in the workplace?

Some employees might be okay. Because they don't let that bother them. Maybe they feel resilient enough where they don't have to do anything about it. Some folks don't feel that way, and some folks really struggle with the mental health implications of racial hostility, whether that be like depression, anxiety  minority stress, also leading to like internalized guilt and blame.

Like somehow it's my fault that I'm doing something wrong, that my workplace is treating me this way.  There could be a lot of adverse effects on employees of color, and so career counselors need to start getting to these conversations. If we all notice here, Hey, there's some racial work dynamics happening here.

How are you feeling about that? And that's where, you know, when I think about the topic I presented on last year about quiet, quitting, that especially sort of shows up because what we don't talk about is quiet firing and racist and hostile  in a way influences in the workplace reinforce quiet firing.

There's a lot to unpack here, Frank. We might need more , than our allotted 20 to 30 minutes. Yeah. You, you, you're linking this issue to, it's not just about employment and whether you have a job or don't have a job. There's so much else. That we need  to think about in terms of personal identity, in terms of trauma, in terms of mental health.

, So th this is something, and as you're, you are bringing this to our audience, which I wanna remind everyone. Our main audience really is, , made up of career counselors, career coaches, career advisors, people that are helping those in the workplace, who are trying to navigate all this.  Microaggressions is a word that,  you used in your session, um, microaggressions in the workplace, what does that look like, particularly for someone that's a minoritized worker and how do we know it , when we see it or when we hear it?  Oh, that's such a good question because I think too, like anytime I talk to anybody who has a minoritized identity, they just feel it in their body.

When a microaggression happens, like your body just sort of recognizes and remembers its discomfort. Somehow, you know, our brains are programmed to like keep us safe, right? And so when a microaggression happens, your brain goes. What was that about? Am I, do I have to worry about like, my comfort here and what is that about?

Which is also why a lot of times when people experience microaggressions, they don't realize it until days later because your brain is still trying to process it. And  we notice that as an issue too, which is why, you know, I'm, I wanna let career counselors know about that in this episode. That sometimes it takes a minute for people to register, going.

I think this person just microaggressed against me. And, um, when we think about this term, it's such a  a blase term. Like, you know, we hear it all the time. It's such a buzz word, but microaggression really is when you think about it, aggression that is transmitted to somebody on a smaller scale. Where it's more intimate  based on somebody's minoritized identities and sort of the power relations between maybe race or, or maybe gender.

 That's when we see a microaggression happening. I will say that there are multiple types of microaggressions, so there's micro insults. Where somebody may, um, deliver an insult that's unintentional, but definitely have some like racist undertones, gendered undertones, right? Then there's micro assaults.

And micro assaults are when people say things that are assaulting to another person, or even do things like assault another person because of their minoritized identity.  And in a workplace that might look like  having a colleague literally come at you with hurtful words and threats, et cetera, um, because you just identify as POC or any other minoritized group.

Then micro invalidations are when a smaller system validates the invalidation you're feeling. Now, I know that's a lot to swallow, but what's really wild about that one is that's where a lot of the gaslighting happens because a micro invalidation is a whole system basically telling you your experiences aren't valid, and so you're not somebody we believe if we reach out to help and say, Hey, listen, like if we reach out for help and say, Hey.

I feel like I'm experiencing microaggressions. If micro invalidations are happening in the workplace, it can be very hard to get support unless you reach outside the workplace, and that's where career counselors can really play a strong role going. I could definitely see the gaslighting here of them telling you that there isn't an issue, but maybe they have policies that absolutely make it an issue.

And here's a great example of that. 'cause this actually happens in a lot of places, um, right now, especially with trans rights and trans inclusivity, right? Maybe like corporations or businesses that say, Hey, like we're trans-friendly, but they still only have a gender binary bathroom, right? So it's those little things that make you like, feel a little unwelcome and go, yes, you care about us, but do we actually belong here?

And and that's like a big issue. Same with, and this is huge for so many workplaces. We see it all the time. So any workplaces, if you feel triggered by this, I am so sorry, but it's gotta happen where oftentimes workplaces might preach, we are all about diversity. And when you look at their staff. They're primarily white or, or primarily men?

 Primarily able bodied. And so whose diversity are you prioritizing and what does diversity actually mean to you? If everything around you doesn't back up what you're saying? And I think a lot of minoritized folks are tired of that, of, of feeling taken for granted by the fact that you keep promising that you're going to give me a nurturing environment.

And all I see around me is just constant invalidation and nothing maybe even changing.  So when I say microaggression. Microaggression tends to fall into one of the three camps of either micro insults, micro assault, or micro invalidation because these are all just forms of aggression that minoritized people feel.

 Not only just feel emotionally, but sometimes I feel under soul. And I've heard clients tell me that before and I sat there and I go, ouch. Yes. I think I know what you mean because it's just this sort of unexplainable psychological discomfort. That's definitely something that career counselors can really take with them and start  unpacking with their clients.

Yeah.  Things that aren't necessarily against the rules, right. That aren't necessarily e that's it. Exactly.  Illegal or, um   in the manual that you get as an employee of, you know, it, it's not in  the compliance training necessarily, but they are,  se seriously negative effects on the individual as well as on the workplace and potentially productivity and everything else that goes with it.

A hundred percent. Yeah. That's a, that's a great example of micro and validation right there. Absolutely. Yeah.  This, these are crazy times.  Employment is hard to come by right. Lot. We, when, if you're on LinkedIn, you see all of the people who are open to work, you hear about all the layoffs. So we've got folks who are potentially in situations that they, they're uncomfortable in, but they can't, they can't leave because there's not a lot of.

Employment options. So wonderful for that group to know that there, there's this group of professionals, these career development professionals, coaches, counselors, advisors that they can reach out to  in their communities and maybe even, uh, among their employers  to get more information to get support.

So your session  at the symposium, at the conference had the word training in the, in the title as well. So where can, where can our audience. Find the most helpful resources, uh, and the most helpful training to help prepare them, to prepare these students and clients, uh, for these kinds of situations.

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And so I think when it comes to training  there's not a lot out there, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things out there. So I think about the, and this is especially true for just building resilience  among our employees of color or even employees who have intersectional or connecting identities of race or gender, et cetera.

So some of the biggest inspirations for me. Include, and I'm gonna pull up a little list because I absolutely love these people and their resources, and I think career counselors as well as people who are wondering if they're experiencing microaggressions in the workplace  can really, really check this out.

And so  there's actually a resource. By and I'm trying to see. So it's very interesting. So if you look at Dr Works book, um.com, I think it's Okun and Jones, and they talk about white supremacy culture, it's actually dismantling racism.org. Um, if you guys check that out and you get to see some primers on white supremacy culture, I mean, that is the ultimate tea to serve.

You know, when you're sitting here going, wait a minute, no, I know what's happening to me. We're doing this. My workplace is doing this, or I have colleagues who are doing this to me, right of, a lot of times when we think about the effects of microaggressions, especially racial, of making employees feel smaller than you  breaking their self-esteem  making them feel like there's something wrong with them as well, like that they don't belong, they're out of sorts.

 Even sometimes going as far as to show signs of disgust that they are there in the workplace or even avoiding eye contact.  All of it is just there. So if you wanna know more about like white supremacy culture, definitely check out dismantling racism.org. I found it to be a very helpful resource and,  dipa Ier last name IYER, um, has a book called Social Change Now, A Guide for Reflection and Connection. Um, I live for Dipa ier, so Dipa, if you're listening. Hey girl. Hey.    Her book is absolutely wonderful because I think for clients it goes into the different roles that you can take. In terms of reclaiming your autonomy and, um, I really wanted to focus a little bit on resources like that during the presentation.

So for example, what would it look like for your clients who are navigating racial microaggressions to look for people in their lives or at work who fulfill certain roles of healing and empower? Also, how can clients also take on some of those roles themselves and all of these roles that Deepa ER talks about in terms of promoting social change?

 They're quite natural for many of us. These are things that we do all the time. So a great example is Deepa Year talks about the guide. So finding somebody who's a guide in the workplace or tapping into your inner guide, this is somebody who, for example, believes that they have a responsibility to mentor and support others  to challenge old systems.

Maybe somebody who has gained wisdom and skills through experiences in these types of situations. And that in itself can be such a blessing if maybe your client has somebody, uh, access to somebody in their workplace or even just. Find somebody who may be used to work there,  and actually receive support in that way.

I mean, I think community support can definitely go very, very far if we know what type of roles to look for, as well as what types of roles we want to fulfill. Maybe for other people who are navigating the same thing, if that makes sense. Absolutely the power of developing a network, not only of people that can advise you  and provide some sort of expertise, but also  colleagues and kindred spirits who are experiencing the same things, and so that you have.

You have other people that you can talk to about kind of how they're navigating and, uh, just commiserate if you, if that, uh, that can be helpful too, to know that you're not in it, on, you know, on, on your own right. And we're, we will get those links in the show notes. So listeners, um, take a look at the episode show notes and we'll have the links that Franks has mentioned  in there for you as well.

All right, Frank, so career counselors and coaches  what do they need to focus on when they're working one-on-one or in a, you know, a group setting with students and clients either in a, in a counseling session or, or in a, in the programming that they're putting together at career centers and with their offices?

Where do, where do they need to be putting the focus right now? Mm. That's a really good question too, I think, um, something that I always emphasize to students and encounters in training is first and foremost, focusing on the person in front of you. The very simple, how are you? Not falling for the bullshit  fine answer, right?

But like really reading somebody's body language and saying, I hear you saying that, and you seem a little down right now too. Can you tell me more about like, what's going on? Sometimes even through that simple invitation, I have clients all the time, counseling wise, who absolutely spill out everything that is happening just because they were invited.

To share what's presently on their mind. And I think what's so important about that is that clients aren't always able to piece everything together right away. So a lot of times they might dump a whole bunch of puzzle pieces metaphorically in front of you going, I have no idea what is happening at this workplace, but I'm experiencing this, I'm noticing this.

And then we can hold some really supportive space in putting some points together. Of like, Hey, I noticed for example, that you mentioned that you noticed somebody getting harassed in the workplace and it made you think back to a time when you were harassed maybe by that same person three months ago.

Um, and that brought up some feelings for you. How is that making you feel about where you work? That's a big question. I don't hear a lot of clients being asked is how does that make you feel about where you work? And that's such a huge, powerful question. I think clients are secretly thinking it, but maybe they don't always come out with that.

And so also having the right questions to broach the topics. How are you feeling about your workplace environment with all of the things that are happening right now politically? How is your workplace treating those issues?  Especially when you think about a lot of censorship that's going on right now, there's probably a lot of minoritized workers and employees who feel especially  oppressed right now, um, because they're absolutely feeling the historical context of today.

Yet they know that their bosses don't support  those experiences and sometimes even shut them down. So there's definitely a lot to unpack there. But to answer your question, I would say the simple invitations of how are you, tell me about what's been going on lately at work. How are you feeling about your place of work?

And another powerful question, how does your workplace make you feel? Because a lot of times for minoritized workers, I think that's where that starts to come out too, of like, I've always been asked maybe how do I feel, but, but how does my workplace make me feel? Do they make me feel valued or do they make me feel like a second priority or  do they make me feel alone?

And I definitely think there's things you can unpack with that the more knowledgeable we are about, like social systems and, and how they operate.  And it doesn't mean either  in any way, shape or form that we're looking for some sort of reason  to trash a workplace or something along those lines.

We genuinely want to address issues that are happening. That people of color and minoritized employees are feeling all the time, but maybe don't have the space to share that. And that's exactly what we're doing here. Yeah, I heard that word there at the end space. Yeah. So the, the very first step is to create a space Yes.

That allows the person that you're speaking with to, to connect  with what's happening with them, to connect with you and for you to connect with them as a human being. And it, it seems very compassionate to, just to start with that kind of a  a question.  To set the tone for what, you know, what, what's happening.

 It's  maybe it's a, a, a meeting for a resume critique, but that's not necessarily Yes.  What, what the pressing issue is. So by, by opening it up to, yeah.  To, to talk about what's important to that person. Sounds like an amazing habit for us all to get started.  Maybe not only with our meetings with students and clients, but in our regular meetings with colleagues, uh, to just start with kind of how are we all doing?

A hundred percent. And something that's really important to point out right now is that, you know, when I was talking about censorship earlier, that's actually happening in counselor education too. And sometimes without knowing it, educators sometimes perpetuate some of this because what they say is, don't talk about politics with your clients.

And of course it doesn't mean that we're pulling out the US flag when we sit with our client and like preaching to them about systems. No, that's not what that means. But if counselors feel like they can't broach those topics, it does prevent us from being able to culturally broach with a client who might be going through that and might be going through something that is considered political.

By the way, all of our social identities are politicized, right? Yeah, a hundred percent are. And we all know it too. We all know that for sure, because we all know a system that we can identify that's oppressive. Whether we're in the same camp or not, we can all agree that there's some sort of ism that bothers you.

 And so with that, I definitely think if we continue to perpetuate this message of like, no politics in the counseling room, what if their identities are so politicized  that is part of their lived experience and political events are in fact very salient to them. So what happens then? And so I definitely think educators and students alike who are listening  you definitely have the platform to approach political topics.

It doesn't mean you're preaching about political parties, but what it means is, is that you're giving space to a client to talk about some really taboo things with you about how a workplace is making them feel based on one's position of power in society  and how they're viewed in society. These are such complicated times.

It's really hard to avoid. The effect of what we see on the news or, or hear on the news and which news we might be listening to. So , there's a whole range of information just coming at us from all directions and it doesn't seem to be slowing in any way. So it's something we're all gonna have to continue, adjust and adapt.

, Which is kind of where we started the conversation.   How full circle I live. Yeah. So Frank, I just wanna say thank you so much  for bringing this conversation  to the podcast, for bringing the topic to the symposium this past summer. And  I'm looking forward to continuing to follow your work and thank you for being out there , and doing great things.

Thank you so much. I, I really appreciate it and I really appreciate you.    And NCDA really giving people the platform to talk about emerging issues in the workplace, because that's really what we're here for, you know, is NCDA. And, I know people always harp on career counseling. I have no idea why.

I have no idea why, but if you're one of those people, those listeners, you know who I'm talking about, that stop doing that because career counseling is really valuable and it's more valuable than ever because we spend most of our lives at work. How are we gonna do counseling if you can't talk about what's happening at work?

 So career counseling should be one of the most, the major foci in counselor training, and it's certainly no second rated topic. So just correcting all the people out there and letting them know that NCDA is the place where we're giving you guys updated trainings, updated information, definitely even if you're not a career counselor.

Check out NCDA and its resources because definitely you'll have a client who talks about their workplace with you eventually. So it's better to have some resources available rather than just be like, oh, well, I'm not really sure.  Because NCA is definitely a hub for some good resources and definitely , some great space to hold with like-minded professionals and, , very supportive educators in the field.

So I'm  very grateful. Thanks so much for that. Shout out to NNC d in particular, Frank,

 I hope to have you back again soon. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you. Thank you.