DEI Symposium Series - Exploring Liberatory Outcomes for Career Development Classes and Workshops

This episode is part of the DEI Symposium Series, developed from the DEI Symposium presented at the 2025 NCDA Global Career Development Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

In this episode Dr. Cheryl Love hosts a conversation with Shelby McIntyre about updating career development classes and workshops with relevant DEI materials and activities. The discussion focuses on integrating liberatory outcomes into career development work. Shelby McIntyre, a career counselor at Pasadena City College, explains the importance of moving beyond traditional outcomes like graduation and employment to include broader goals such as civic engagement, social agency, and critical consciousness. She shares practical examples of how to implement these concepts, addressing challenges like systemic oppression.

Dr. Cheryl Love is a Career Counselor and a College Specialist for the Arts, Humanities, School of Education and School of Public Policy in the Career Center at the University of California, Riverside. In this role she also serves as the Liaison to the African Student Programs, the Black Student Success Initiative, Basic Needs, UCR Transfer Work Group, and the Kessler Scholar Program. 

Shelby McIntyre is a career counselor at Pasadena City College. She also serves on the Board of the California Career Development Association and as a member of the NCDA Government Relations Committee.

Resource:

• Toolkit for Integrating Practices for Collective Liberation

Transcript

Career Practitioner Conversations

DEI Symposium Series – Exploring Liberatory Outcomes for Career Development Classes and Workshops

National Career Development Association

January 27, 2026 

Welcome to the NCDA podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA, director of Professional Development, and this episode is part of our 2025 DEI symposium series. It features a conversation about updating career development classes and workshops with relevant DEI materials and activities. And I'm here today with Shelby McIntyre and Dr.

Cheryl Love. , Both of you have been so active as NCDA members and you're volunteering in so many ways. It's great to have you both back on the podcast. Dr. Venable, it is so great to be here.  Again, I'm Dr. Cheryl Love and I am a career specialist at the University of California Riverside. And in addition to that, I serve on the board of inherited unseen leaders and nonprofit that works to help unseen leaders, not only in the us.

But  globally, and I'm the vice president on that board. I also serve as the  diversity initiative and cultural inclusion. Training subcommittee, co-chair for NCDA and um, am involved with NCDA in other ways as well. But  want to get the conversation started with the amazing Shelby McIntyre, who's going to talk with us today about evolving and adapting career development classes and workshops for libertarian outcomes.

So, Shelby, I'll let you introduce yourself. Thank you, Dr. Love. Thank you, Melissa. It's wonderful, wonderful to be here.  My name is Shelby. I am a career counselor  faculty full-time at Pasadena City College, a community college in Pasadena, greater Los Angeles area, Southern California. And, uh, I like to say the community colleges, uh, I got this from one of the chancellors before.

He said we serve the top 100% of students, right? So I love that we're an open access college and that we do, we serve the top a hundred percent. Um. I'm also a certified career counselor through NCDA. I was former co-chair and serve on the committee. That's the government relations committee, uh, that NCDA has.

I've  been involved in California Career Development Association.  So there's so many ways to get involved in NCDA, and I'm just honored to share today on a topic that's near and dear to my heart, which is liberatory outcomes. So, you know  I, I think I'll keep my intro short  but thank you for having me.

Thanks for being here again, um, giving us  some insight about liberatory outcomes.  I, um, was, um, honored and privileged to be in the room when you did your presentation at the NCDA Global Conference in June. And so I'm glad that you're gonna get the chance to share, uh, with even a larger audience on this  really appropriate.

For times like these  concepts. So can you explain liberatory outcomes and why you're focused on them? Absolutely. So. Higher education and educational systems in general are so focused on outcomes, which is wonderful, right? We have to be looking at how we're serving our students or not serving our students.

And the traditional outcomes we've looked at are graduation rates, success and retention rates and courses. These are vital outcomes. We've also expanded it to look at living wages and if people aren't employed in their field of study, also very important outcomes. And so this concept of liberatory outcomes  there's gonna be a link in the show notes that has  some resources because all of these ideas are not from me.

I'm taking these ideas and, and integrating them into my career work, and that's what I wanna share with y'all, but I cannot take credit.  So liberatory outcome is a, is a concept that exists before me, but it's the idea of, aside from those metrics, right, if students don't graduate. If they don't end up employed in their field of study, if they don't end up with a livable wage, which that's a bummer, so hopefully we can at least get that one.

But, uh, if they don't get those outcomes, are there other outcomes that education serves? And this also has to do with the difference between education and training.  As. Our world evolves. More and more students are seeking out higher education for labor market outcomes, which is great. And sometimes it's muddied the water between education and training, right?

 And so what liberatory outcome also kind of helps us do is recenter on what do we want students to get out of an education? We want them to have career preparation, of course, but what is an what else? What other outcomes are part of an education? And specifically these liberatory outcomes. Are centered on this idea of collective liberation.

And so, um, you'll hear a lot of words like DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, anti-racism, and collective liberation can be a shorthand for including all of those things, um, including accessibility for folks with disabilities, neurodivergent, and it's a big umbrella term and what I appreciate about the word collective liberation is.

We have words like decolonize and anti-racist, which are so important.  And at the same time they do kind of center the thing we're trying to get away from.  Anti-racism centers, racism, decolonize centers, colonize.    My therapist actually brought this up to me as she, she heard of re indigenizing rather than decolonizing.

And so collective liberation is a way to kind of talk about how we can remove systemic barriers for folks. Collectively liberate one another from the oppressions that we've built and baked into our society. And I know this is a long answer, uh, but these are all the components that build liberatory outcomes, right?

Right. Um, and so,  while I do wanna say it's important to center specifically the nuances of racism, the nuances of disability, the nuances of socioeconomic, marginalization, collective liberation, helps us just have one phrase that really includes all those things. And then we have to really intentionally look at all those things.

And so.  Specifically, what is a liberatory outcome? Right? What does that mean?  It could be civic engagement, so something students get from education that isn't a graduate, uh, that isn't  graduation or a job, but it can be a sense of social agency. It can be their leadership development, it can be their racial and ethnic identity development.

It can be a sense of critical consciousness, Paulo, Freres  term that's so important in this work. And so the idea of liberatory outcomes is just the idea of. Everyone in education, whether you're in the classroom, whether you're leading workshops, whether you're working one-on-one in student appointments, we can all play a part to help students not just reach those traditional outcomes of graduation and working in their field of study, but also these liberatory outcomes that they have an increased sense of social agency, of identity development  and critical consciousness.

I love it. Collected liberation. I think we all should be working towards that goal. Collected liberation. And I think  the generations coming up, they want more from us than, Hey, help me get a a, a good paying job. And so I think  the generations coming up have a focus on, you know, quality of life they want to,  be removed from the oppression that has bogged all of us down for decades. And so I love collected liberation because that's definitely helping us be centered on all the things that we should be focused on. And yes, please liberate me. I think I've been oppressed long enough. But anyway  moving on. Um, because again  I really am enjoying  the information that you are sharing with us.

What does liberatory outcomes look like in the context of career counseling or leading a career development class or workshop? Can you give us some examples to really help us visualize this? Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you said about the younger generations. It's so true. And yes, we need to liberate each other.

I'll liberate you. You liberate me. We, you know, I really,  and that's the big piece of it is I think just to touch on what you said, 'cause I think it's so important. Historically, I think some career counseling has been working one at a time. How can we help people overcome economic marginalization through their own career outcomes?

And collective liberation helps us look at the broader scope and say, well, our students, a lot of times, they don't want to just liberate themselves at everyone's expense. Right. For example, like if I liberate myself by working in a capitalist system that is.  Still exploiting others, and I just get to reap the benefits.

That's not really what I wanted education for. So, yeah, I, I just wanted to say, I'm really glad you brought that point up  of how our, our, our generations are gaining such an awareness of that and speaking out about that.  For sure. Yeah.  But yes, what does it look like? Let's talk specific examples in career development, right?

Because these are lofty concepts, right?  Even just that phrase liberate me. What does that mean? Right  right. Um, self liberation, what does that mean?    It can start really simple. I'm sure many, many career practitioners in today's day and age are doing this already. So you might be listening to this and saying, you know, yeah, this is what I've been doing for years now.

I maybe have some words for it, or maybe you already have the words for it, and then if so, please join the conversation. Uh, but it can literally be as simple as in a one-on-one appointment. Intentionally providing openings for students to process their marginalizing experience for with the workforce instead of kind of putting those things to the side as taboo or stigmatizing.

If a student says, I didn't get an interview, and I worry, it's because I mentioned my neurodivergence in my cover letter.  Sometimes, maybe historically we would've steered away from that conversation and said, oh, well, that's out of our control. It doesn't, we can't control if they're biased, so let's focus back on you.

But we can also take some time to process the layers that are involved in that and the internalized oppression that comes with that, and honor the students' bravery for bringing their neurodivergence in their cover letter. Like that's a brave, courageous act. So it could look like opening spaces and leaning into the discomfort of these conversations because conversations about difference and systemic oppression and these lofty things that us as individuals don't truly have a great deal of control over, it can make us feel uncomfortable and powerless.

And I think going into this work is kind of embracing that as part of the process.  And yeah. She Did you wanna add to that? Yeah, I was gonna say, um. Should, if you're doing this work, be comfortable with being uncomfortable. I think we do, um, a great disservice to the students, to the clients we serve, when we wanna stay in the comfort zone and it's, it's not helping with.

 Making sure that we all can be collectively liberated. And so that's what I just wanted to add. As I was hearing what you were saying, it's like  yeah, there's going to be some discomfort in your clients. Your students deal with being uncomfortable daily.  Um, give them the space to be able to share their lived experience and giving them resources to deal with.

 Things that are not, just more often than not.  Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And a really specific example of that that, that goes with what you just said is the idea of code switching.  I was asked to do a workshop for our black students on professional etiquette and. Even just that ask  made me pause.

I was like, oh, where is this coming from? Like, what do you mean by professional etiquette? Like it sounded very assimilation coded, right? Mm-hmm. Teach these students how to change themselves to fit into these work environments and so yikes, right?  Yes. And so part of these conversations is also gonna be educating our colleagues, right?

 Yeah. I think another piece that comes up in this work is confrontation. You don't have  to come at this in an aggressive way, right? You can come in an openly curious way. What do you mean by professional etiquette and what makes    think this is a need for this particular population of students?

 And so, you know what? We ended up still doing a workshop series for them, but more so it was, it was not, here's how you assimilate yourself. It was how do you feel in professional spaces historically? Have you ever been told by somebody to act more professional? And what did that look like for you?

Mm-hmm. And we really just. Process the marginalization and just gave students the floor to speak to each other. And a lot of this is, is learning when we need to step back as facilitators as well. Um, and another big part of this, we know we talk about liberatory outcomes and collective liberation in a class or a workshop setting.

 Is even looking at how you hold and share power. In that session, right? Like I think so many of us see ourselves more as facilitators than presenters because presenters kind of brings back that sage on the stage. I have something to share. You all listen rather than we're co-creating and co-learning together, which is such an important part of the process.

Yeah, I think so. And it's the secret to getting to collected liberation. Yeah. Um, and when you said  that you were asked to do this workshop  about professionalism to a group of black students, I immediately  flashed back to moments that weren't great. And so, because professionalism is one of the many tools that have been used to,  try to force people to fit in  a box. Um,  I will often say it's the tool of white supremacy to  try to make sure that you other people and you, um, make it so that the way that they live their lived experiences. Don't have value and they need to, um, get what the program is.  I've been talking before and so, yeah.

So I appreciate  that example in the discussion because again, collected liberation is,  being honest about your privilege and um, really together us working to get to a better place, I think. But anyway, so thank you. Yeah. Anything else? No. Can I care about that? Yes. Yeah. I wanted to jump on what you just said about sending the message that our students lived experiences don't have value like that.

That could even just be a stepping stone. We could just ask ourselves as an inquiry question, is there anything I'm doing in my work in one-on-one appointments or in classes or in workshops that's sending, that may be, that may be sending students the message that their lived experience doesn't have value.

 Like that. Like even just that fact we can just, so much of this I think is inquiry based and I just love the way you phrased that, so I wanted to take time to repeat it. Okay. Because appreciate it. That's marginalization, right? Mm-hmm. Is  reinforcing that.  That  that narrative that our students come in with nothing or even stuff to be erased or unlearned right.

And  need to re assimilate in this certain way. Absolutely love it because, you know, one of the things I try to do in the work that I do  and I'm gonna use Collected Liberation now more and more, and more lean into it, is helping people to be their authentic selves at all times. In places and spaces, and if you are in a space that's not allowing you to do it, that space probably is not a space you wanna spend more time in, or you wanna spend more time in that space so you can change the atmosphere, as I like to say.

So. I love both of those frames. 'cause it's true. We, we, we can't shame people for having that survival instinct to say, I deserve better. I'm gonna leave this space. Right. And man, we have to applaud those heroes who go into those spaces and say, I am going to incrementally work on a culture shift to make this a more inclusive space.

'cause we need both. Um, definitely do.  And I, I think that also, when we're talking about spaces, I just wanna share this quote that what you said reminded me of that I learned in graduate school and. Never forgotten is, um, even with th those of you that work at a career center, when we think about our centers  there's a difference.

The quote is, there's a difference between all are welcome here and this was created with you in mind. And so you can say, you know, this career center welcomes everyone and you can be more effective. By saying we're gonna have programming specific to our students with disabilities. We are gonna have programming specific for our Asian and Pacific Islander students and Desi American students.

And you know, I'm not trying to give you all way more work to do in your day. 'cause I know part of this work is also caring for ourselves and having boundaries. But just thinking about that, how am I creating a space where students, especially marginalized and historically oppressed students, feel like this was created with my.

With me in mind and or created with me. 'cause we can bring students into this work. Hopefully compensate them, but we can bring them into this work rather than just doing stuff for them.  Nothing for us. About us without us.    I'm saying a lot of phrases I'm heard. Hopefully these are familiar.

You're nodding your heads at home. Those who are listening. Phrases that people should internalize. I'll just say, so in the session  at the conference at the NCDA Global Conference, you referenced how your current workplace, Pasadena City College, has integrated liberatory outcomes at an institutional level.

Can you tell, um, those who are gonna be listening to this  conversation, tell us.  About that, how that has happened, what does it look like now? I love talking about this and just raising, screaming from the rooftops because I think precedents are so important and institutional precedents the power that it comes.

And I love this one because I had nothing to do with it. And by that I mean so much of this work is done in community and coalitions and some of it starts as silos and then, you know, we learn about it and we start praising it and sharing it.  Right. So this came about my desk as an email one day, and there was a long road before that I can't speak to as well.

But I just wanna say like, when you see these opportunities and you see these things that are working, just join in, you know, share the, share the terms. So I'm gonna tell you from what I do know, because, um.  I heard about it and I, I wanted to make time to share on this podcast. So, um, Pasadena City College is one of 116 community colleges in California.

 But we all have different cultures and different levels of  comfort. I think with.  Claiming to be a school that's anti-racist, that is geared towards collective liberation. And so in the 20 23, 20 24 school year, our academic senate had some incredible leadership and they. Really put their energy and time behind this liberation through education campaign.

And it is linked as well in the toolkit that's in the show notes if you wanna check out the website. But it's the idea of identifying five goals that the institution prioritizes for our students around collective liberation, as well as an institutional learning outcome around collective liberation.

And that one was actually kind of a, a, a. I heard like a fight a little bit, right? Like not, you know, some of these things, it takes time and there's a little bit of discomfort or pushback or questions. And to say one of our institutional learning outcomes is collective liberation is amazing.  So I'm gonna read some of these goals to you  but let me grab one real quick.

Because I have the goals ready, but I also wanted to get the institutional learning outcome. Um, so I'll start with that one. Okay. So we have seven institutional learning outcomes, so it's just one of seven for the whole school. What we want students to leave with when they engage with us, it says students will evaluate and challenge systems of oppression in order to develop strategies to become change agents to foster liberation.

Wow. I think that's pretty radical to see a large, you know, 28,000 student institution publicly say that's one of our seven outcomes. And I know that that took work to build the buy-in and to build awareness. And so that's the institutional learning outcomes. I'm also gonna read the five goals and then we'll sit with those for a minute.

Um, so it says, Pasadena City College commits to achieving liberation through education by providing the following to our students goal one. Opportunities to gain knowledge of the social, political, and economic structures in society to solve real world problems and improve their communities. Goal two.

Access to instruction that reflects and affirms students' identities and values, their lived experience and ways of knowing. Goal Three occasions to engage politically and oppose structures that uphold systemic racism and other forms of afresh oppression. Goal four. Removal of structural and financial barriers to achieving students' academic and personal goals.

And finally, goal five, opportunities for students to express their cultural identity and experiences in safe and affirming environments.

Well, I'll say that,  I'm just thinking about some of    our colleagues in other states. Hmm. Um, and even in some places in California that would be hard pressed to be able to have one of those goals.  But, and I have no doubt that it took  a lot of hard work to make it happen at Pasadena.  City College. So I commend the folks, um, I'll call 'em social justice  champions that, um, made it happen. I commend them and  it definitely, I, I know it'll be in the show notes. Um, they'll  be able to, um, link to  resources and kind of get to see the roadmap because it's definitely  something for sure, for sure to aspire.

Yes.  So may I wanna. I wanna shout out two names because it was a coalition, so I don't wanna leave anybody out. But because I'm a counselor, I have my counseling colleagues, I wanna shout out Dr. Arm Walker and Dr. Gina Lopez, who are two counselors that led that initiative.  And Dr. Lopez teaches our career planning class.

So you know, this can be career people, this can be counseling people, and it was a coalition of instructional faculty and other folks. But yeah, I wanted to shout out those names. They're huge players in this. So, um, this leads to the, the final question. I know we are getting close to time here, um, but a great lead in, um, because oftentimes people hear, you know, amazing initiatives, amazing movements, and they're like, well, I don't think I can do that.

And so  I think anyone can  start a process to bring about change. I'm a firm believer in that. So with that said. If someone wants to integrate this concept of liberatory outcomes into their career development work, how could they start? Yeah. I do wanna acknowledge what you said about colleagues in other states and other institutions mm-hmm.

Where this kind of work could get you fired, get you a lawsuit. Um, so we have to start with capacity, right? So what is your capacity?  I'm not gonna shame anybody who's not willing to lose their job over this, right? Like, we all have a role to play and maybe we, we do it behind the scenes. And, and so, you know, one of the first things to start in this work is, is what is your capacity?

Even things like, am I a part-timer or a full-timer? Because you might have different institutional support based on that. Um, and so a big part of this is coalition building. So there's a bunch of resources online, just like you said, roadmaps, ideas, curriculums.  And I, I hope to compile a few  in the document, in the show notes just as a starting point.

Um. But I think as much as those resources and that knowledge is important, I think it also has to start with community and coalition building. So finding those people in your places and spaces who are just as dedicated can support you. You can  come as unified front. You can work things out and support each other along the way.

That's a huge piece. And then also starting with your own capacity in the foundation of self work. Wow. So, um, one of the things that's included in the toolkit I'm sharing  that I shared at the conference and I'm sharing in the show notes is a lot of questions because again, a lot of this is inquiry based work.

So I'm just gonna read a few that can help us start to make sure to assess our own capacity and. You can literally start this work without doing anything big, anything institutional level. Just asking yourself inquiry questions like what identities do I hold? Race, class, gender, age, ability, et cetera, and how do they shape my blind spots, biases or triggers in educational spaces.

So even just like self-awareness can be a starting point.  And  even self-care  in boundaries can be a starting point as well.  Am I falling into any common pitfalls of this work, such as saviorism, burnout, as martyrdom, lack of boundaries, or over-identification with being the good educator?

And again, there's nothing wrong with trying to be good and trying to collectively liberate one another, but there are some nuances around these concepts, right, that we can kind of interrogate and look at in ourselves. So you can go as easy as just starting with yourself, right? Finding your allies. And then there's some other questions that can, can help when you do have a little more power, like maybe you're designing a curriculum for a workshop, you can ask yourself a question like, how might I be unintentionally reinforcing dominant narratives around meritocracy, individualism, or capitalism through what I teach or how I teach it?

 And how might I more intentionally challenge dominant narratives and make more space for counter narrative? Right. So just opening it up a little bit, how do I make sure students who've been marginalized can share their lived experience in a way that's valued? So I'm not gonna read all the questions.

There's a bunch there. You could just  pick one a day and have fun with your own inquiry. Um, and then, and then you can do it in community. You can share with one another, share ideas.  For those of you that are more like specifics oriented, um, I do wanna share.  This could look like talking about unions more in the classroom.

Mm-hmm. This could look like  salary negotiation from a  from a mindset that recognizes that many of our students value humility, and even just taking up the space for salary negotiation can feel counter-cultural to their upbringing and values. You know, it, it could just be the way we start to approach this work.

   I know I'm giving a million examples  but it could literally be a workshop on overcoming bias in the job search. Lakeisha Matthews has done amazing work in developing some articles  in the NCDA career convergence on that,  you know, I could spout resources for days, but really where the heart of it is, is building your community  working on yourself.

A lot of this I bring into my therapy, right? So I'm constantly recentering on my inner healing, um, as part of this work.  And that would be really how I'd recommend getting started. Start with self for sure. And then also you've mentioned lots of really great resources and just we'll say, since we are doing this podcast for NCA, some amazing resources, I will do a shameless plug for the diversity initiative and cultural inclusion.

Yes. Um. Committee, um, DICI  we are doing amazing work and we welcome any and all who'd like to participate. Um, this  is  part of the DEI Symposium podcast series 2.0. And so you're gonna get to listen to a lot of amazing presentations. This one to help you with your journey, your personal journey, and to help you with the work that you do for your students, for your clients.

And so  lots of support, lots of people to connect with, to help in the work that you do. And, um. We are in the process now of calling for proposals for the DEI symposium taking place in 2026 in Minneapolis. And so deadline to submit for that is November the seventh. So you can  look for information on NCDA website  to, for that.

 So again, lots of ways to be able to connect with folk to help with the work. That you do. And so as we  close for the day    final word, Shelby, that you'd like to give, and then I'll have a closing remark. I just wanna thank everybody who took the time to listen. I wanna thank you, Dr. Love. I wanna, I wanna thank people for engaging in this work because I do think the systems we live in really reinforce individualism, status quo and kind of force us and, and not to shame people who are on that mode, but to force us into this survival mode.

So everyone who's surviving and then going on top of that to look out for community and try to do some of this work and support one another. Keep doing it, whatever that looks like. And so I do think, you know, a lot of people do have a lot of humility and humbleness about their work. Maybe it is time to share at the DEI, uh, symposium.

So maybe share that work with us. I, I'm so excited to hear from more of y'all.  But I hope this was  I hope this was just something to add to your toolkit and I look forward to continuing to do the work with y'all. And  it definitely is something to add to your toolkit. Thank you so much, Shelby, for the work that you do and continue to do honor a privilege to work with you.

Uh. CCDA, um, as part of the board there in the work that I do as the chair of the Diversity, equity, inclusion and Accessibility Committee for CCDA.  And Shelby, you continue to do amazing work around, um, government and legislation, so appreciate you for that. And so,  be on the lookout for other  amazing topics in the DEI symposium podcast series, and I will end with this amazing thought that a student gave to me at a summer program a.

That  I, um, participate in every year that the African Student Program Center sponsors. It's the 8 2 8 summer program for income and black scholars and the student in a conversation said this, when you're born, you look like your parents. When you die, you look like your choices. So make good choices.

I'd say so that you can be a positive impact in the community where you live and in other spaces too. So again, thank you all for listening. Thank you Shelby, for an amazing  presentation. Love to being in conversation with you and um, I look forward to continue to get into good trouble with you.

Everyone have an amazing day and year.