The Signal You Ignored: How Leaders Misread Reality in Real Time (Decision-Making, Leadership Blind Spots)

There is a moment most leaders never talk about.

Not the failure. Not the outcome. The moment before anything breaks.

Everything still looks fine. The numbers hold. The team shows up. Nothing appears wrong. But internally, something shifts. You feel it. And instead of following it, you explain it away.

You call it timing. The market. A phase.

Weeks later, everything is off.

This episode breaks down leadership decision-making under uncertainty, including executive decision-making, risk management, and how leaders navigate complex business environments in real time.

If you are responsible for outcomes, this conversation will sharpen how you interpret uncertainty before it turns into failure.

In this episode:

• How leaders misread signals before failure
• The psychology of delayed decision-making
• Why intuition gets overridden by narrative
• Identifying leadership blind spots early
• Decision frameworks for high-stakes environments

This episode is supported by Dre’s Island Flava, a local Caribbean catering company serving authentic flavors and culture. Learn more here: https://dresislandflava.com

Transcript

A Podcast For Clarity

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is not a podcast for comfort. It's a podcast for clarity. In a culture flooded with noise, dangerous narratives, and emotional uncertainty, this space exists to examine what actually matters and what actually works. Here we question power itself, belief systems, and the assumptions most people inherit without inspection. Most people accept instead of dissect. This podcast is about correcting that. Welcome. Bienvenue, Marhaban, Bienvenidos to the Magnificent Ones podcast.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

There's a moment most leaders never talk about. Not the failure, not the outcome. The moment before anything breaks, when everything still looks fine, numbers are holding, people are showing up, nothing is visibly wrong. But something shifts, not externally, but internally. You feel it. And instead of following it, you explain it away. You tell yourself it's the market, timing, a phase, a fluctuation. Three weeks later, everything is off. And when someone finally says it out loud, you already know why. Today's conversation isn't about leadership success. It's about the signal leaders feel early, misread, and pay for later. Kevin, you brought three decisions Greenwich Acura, Direct Buy, and UTI. On the surface, they're different environments, but they don't feel like separate events. They feel like the same pattern showing up in different forms. So instead of walking through them one by one, I want to start here.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

When you look at the three decisions now, stripped away of context, what's the same mistakes that were made in each scenario?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I would say that treating treating success and progression as a ladder, where each time when I've had a measure of success, I feel like I'm done. And I'm just standing there watching things unfold. And and you know, the machine is built and now you can just watch it go. And it's a pattern I'm you know, I'm I'm uncomfortable to talk about because I, you know, you feel like you should learn, but it seems to rear its head as I've tried to grow and expand, and I've misdiagnosed success for a finish line where I could just move outside and and and start to move to my next project or what have you, versus treating it more like a a fluid interlocking group of rules that I've tried to live my life by that lean on each other and you can build the foundation, but you can't you can't leave the house unattended.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Absolutely. What are your thoughts, Phil?

SPEAKER_04 3:03

No, I agree a hundred percent. It's easy to fall into that trap of feeling like you've reached that line. You're you're done. I've succeeded, I've built something, and now what? How do you keep yourself going and keep that team engaged when you feel like you're done?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

So I do have a curious question for you. You know, a as as I was going through you know your information, something that I found very compelling was you talked about going on vacation. And you know, the the team, the team does need you while you're on vacation, and there's this this a sense of satisfaction that you're needed and the difference between being needed and then having a team that can function without you. Like how like can you walk us through how all of those, like, how do you get to the point where you say to yourself, this is a problem. I I am now on vacation, and I and yes, the part of me is happy that it doesn't run without me, but at the other on the other's hand, now I can't be disengaged from work.

Ego And The Cage Of Dependency

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah, I I would say that's that's going from a mindset of being self-employed to being a business owner. And the challenge that I have, and I'd like to think a lot of people have, so I don't feel so lonely about it, is I have a tremendous amount of self-confidence. And I've certainly over my career arc subscribed to the if you want something done right, do it yourself theory. And that creates a cage of dependency that your ego has generated. Because there's there's brilliance everywhere. And my way is a way, it's not the way. And to not enable people to give back and to learn and to become leaders of their own is is where the challenge is of not being able to leave for a day or a week. Or if you want to grow your business outside of one building, if you're the stimulus for everything that happens, how can you expand and and and do more? So that's that's the trap. And yeah, it that the the boiling point or the thought is when I leave, I'm terrified. Or when I leave, my phone better be right next to me because I know there's gonna be fires and I'm the guy. And when when you're thinking like that, you're very lost, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

So do you think it's a matter of ego then?

Whispers, Cracks, And Tough Feedback

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Largely. Largely it's I and from for me, it's a combination of ego and insecurity. You know, they're battling each other all the time where you you feel as an imposter that you need to put your stamp on everything because that fuels that ego and gives you the confidence. But more importantly, it's coming from being a college dropout, selling cars, being in an environment that was high pressure, and a lot of the stereotypical things that happen in that business. And I'm saying that carefully because there's a lot of good people in all businesses, but the reputation in the car business is earned. You know, there's a lot of deception and things that I wasn't happy with. So I found myself at a very young age trying to figure out how to be successful in my own mind. And equally as important, how do I how do I make sure I'm doing it in a way where I can go to sleep at night, put my head on the pillow, and feel that I'm doing something positive. So that's really a long-winded way of saying that that set my mindset to I need to be different. I need to block out all the noise. I've had no mentors, I've had nobody that really helping me learn how to do what I wanted to do the way I wanted to do it. And as I went through my career moving to a one-building operation at Greenwich Acura as a general manager, it was still okay because I could have my hands on a lot of things. And I started to learn because I was 27 with a group of 50-year-old men, and you don't get to tell people twice your age what they should be doing and expect to lead properly. So that you know, I've evolved a little bit out of that. But really, where it where it showed itself is when I moved into franchise operations and I had three businesses where I quickly learned that if I didn't change my my approach, it would break me.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

So uh let's back up a second. So we talked about you know that first mistake of kind of resting on your laurels after you know achieving that level of success. So let's kind of isolate that earliest moment. So what did that kind of signal feel to you before you labeled it?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

It it it's a whisper bef a whisper before a collapse. And, you know, and he do it, you know, we've we've spoken about it a little bit, uh, I don't know if it was now or in some of our other conversations, but it really is I stopped doing the things that got me where I was. I stopped running, running the exact build that made things successful and doubled the business in a you know in a short period of time because I thought that I had achieved success. So it it wasn't like an aha moment where everything fell at once. It was a crack, and you start to point to outside influences and uncontrollables, or I do. And then you have you rein yourself back in and say, wait a second, come on. It's always going to be near a holiday or the bad weather or you know, the economy took a dip, or something you can look point to. But those those don't do you any good, and they're largely consistent anyway. So there's always a reason to fail or succeed, depending. But I stopped looking internally because I thought I had done the work where I had and I, you know, I where I was entitled almost to step back. So what's the aha moment? The aha moment is when the owner of the dealership came in, closed my door, and said, Kevin, what is going on? We we haven't experienced this in two e two years. And that was really the moment where I, when I didn't have the answer, I spent the next day or two finding the answer. And I've done my best not to go back.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

Oh, that's absolutely understandable. So uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

My my question is you were 27 at at this point, right? Yeah. And your your boss takes you into the office. What was what was what was that like? Because you were you were talking about the age gap that was there, and that you know, you're telling these people what you know what to do. Now your boss comes to you and you don't have an answer. Like for you, from a just a mental point of, I'm I'm I'm guessing that you're a high achiever and you're a go-getter, and now you you don't have an answer in that moment. Like, what did that feel like to you uh just as a just as a from an identity standpoint?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

It was embarrassing. It was embarrassing that that it took someone else to come in and point to something that should have been obvious to me. And just being I was I just had to be vulnerable and just be honest that that I wasn't doing the things that got me and got the business where it needed to be and own it. You know, I don't I don't believe in mistakes being hidden or masked. You know, you need to be upfront in all whether you're you're talking up or talking, you know, to to a report. You know, there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable and honest. So that that that's how I handled it is just wow, I I really I really did something wrong here and I'm gonna fix it and we will not go back there again.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Thank you for that. Phil?

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Yeah, I mean it's it's always tough to have those conversations as you know we talk about having tough conversations and being on the receiving end of that, it it it can feel embarrassing, but as long as you're able to take that ownership of that moment, it it really gives you that opportunity to grow yourself as a leader and help you not repeat those same mistakes moving forward. And I think having those tough conversations is one of the most difficult things as a leader to do because you never want somebody to feel that shame and embarrassment, but the only way that we can grow is from those difficult feelings to help us really develop.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, I I I agree, and I I would say that the only way to effectively on the leadership side handle things like that is long before they happened. If you you know, I have very specific ground rules that I live by and they can't be corrupted and the order can't be changed. You always need to start with like, you know, and a lot of that's just being from being honest and and truthful and approachable. And where I I've skipped, and I think a lot of leaders skip, is they move from like to understand. If you like me a bit or enough, and I can explain why my product or my business is so strong, and I'm I'm I'm gonna get you where you want, then you expect to be able to let them go without clarity and an environment that they feel comfortable giving their input and being vulnerable and failing on their own and being honest about it. And that's the the trust level. And that's so that's to me the most vital one is is that move from light to trust that creates a safety in any room where you don't have to be the loudest, you don't have to be the one creating all the stimulus and the energy and and the momentum. You can really have a have a candid, honest conversation with anyone at any given time, and it's received under the right lens.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

Absolutely. So when you're when you're having these signals, you know, we've we've talked about some of the, you know, oh, it's the weather, oh, it's that. But how did you internalize that to override that feeling of like, I know there's a signal, but how did you override that signal for yourself and say, it's not really a problem, you know, it'll be, it'll, it'll, it'll pass. The things will work themselves out.

Leading With Questions Not Answers

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Over the course of the first 10 years of my career, I did a lot of lookbacks and I have some specific moments in my career and life that have formed the foundation for how I operate. So not being your super organized, everything is written down type of person, I've had to take the time to build a process and every morning look at it and say, am I am I at the right stage? Am I focused on the right thing? Am I pointing to the metric that's hurting me right now or the person that needs the attention? Or am I just running a boilerplate business? So once I got that level of organization where now I can fluidly move in in and out and I can recognize the size of the signs of the the cracks before they collapse, it's made it a lot easier to go to the right point and to have those conversations before they become an issue.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

So, in a sense, you know, yeah, going back to that moment, it's not a matter of that you ignore the the signal. It's is it would it be fair to say that it's more of like a reinterpretation of the signal? And so what was there, was there an instance where maybe just as a human being, right? Just we're just human beings here in the situation, it's you explain it away to yourself because that's more believable. Like you like telling yourself, oh, like like you said, oh, it's the weather. It's the it's it's the it's the the things that aren't tangible, right? It's it's because it's Christmas. The explaining it away versus you know doing a taking a moment to look back and say, hey, well, maybe it it wasn't the weather, maybe it was me. One of the things I and I'll and I'll preface it by saying that in analyzing your work, something that it is is very that that sticks out to me now is that it does show a high degree of emotional intelligence, and that being able to reflect and and and then create value and help others not make the same mistake is is a very important skill skill to have. But those that's also a skill that is learned through having those really, really hard times, especially when you you want to be the best, you you're driven, and you have a chip on your shoulder, and you're like, no, I have to prove myself. And and so was there a situation or a moment where you felt that you had to explain something away because you misread or re-reinterpreted the situation?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Explained it away to myself often. Explained it to people that report up through me or to to anyone in the business. Absolutely not. You know, I I'll be the first one, and I've always been the first one to say control the controllables and and focus on what you can do and what can you do today. And, you know, there's been times and in in that same that same era, I had a meeting where we were struggling, and I went in with all my notes and and what we were gonna do different. And I sat there and I five minutes in, I stared at a bunch of blank faces, and I stopped and I started asking questions. You know, okay, so what what do you think we might be doing differently? What do you think changed? And that's the approach that helped that helped me a lot to let others uh be accountable, you know, instead of just telling them what's wrong and how to fix it, finding finding that that layer where you created that, I created that safety and they felt comfortable being honest about where they were doing well, what was maybe an uncontrollable, and we could put that to the side and then focus on, okay, well, where are we missing? So did uh you know, are our callbacks on the same schedule? Are we answering by the third ring or did we fall off that? Are we are we trying to control the sale with, you know, by not giving them a test drive right away? You know, things along those lines. And and just by asking questions instead of making statements, it I was able to change the dynamic. And, you know, that's that's something that has carried forward. And I haven't really made that mistake often since, where I, where I I got into that the guy mode, and I know all the answers, and and I'm just gonna tell you. I've formed a a pattern of always leading with questions to, you know, and I certainly have my own beliefs, and they're probably not easy to to make me feel like I'm not right. But I've I've been but I've I've done my best to adopt the before you jump in and tell them why they're wrong, let them speak, and let's come to find a way to come to an agreement together to move forward. And then he you said something also, which I think is important in my progression. When you're not an academic and you didn't go through school and you're not a book learner, you better figure out another way. So any any measure of success I've had has been through tripping, falling, making mistakes, and then identifying patterns. That's where that's where I've done well. Because I've been able to see the patterns of what took me somewhere, reverse engineer them to where I to where I am, to where they started and when the last when things were going well, and then put it put it down in in scripture and say, I'm not gonna do that again. And while I have done it again, it's less often than I would have. And I recognize it sooner, and I've keep building that stack of what mistakes have I made this month that I can try and avoid repeating. And I own it, it's okay. You know, I'm not I'm not afraid of it because I've I've I've learned a lot more about myself and business through my failures than my successes.

Who Pays For Leadership Delay

SPEAKER_04 19:43

Absolutely. And so when we kind of talk about these things, you know, these these signals and how they've you know affected your business, there's always going to be a cost to other people within your business. So when you're experiencing these delays, who who have who's been impacted throughout your career that's kind of paid for that delay in recognizing that that lapse in in the situation for your in those leadership moments?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

The easy answer is ownership or the C suite team, you know, depending on on where I've been, because they're the ones that, you know, my my last my last role was at a publicly traded trade school group, 15 campuses, I had 100 people reporting up through me and you know, 12 areas of interest. So I could answer it in a lot of ways because it's everyone. But the most tangible is we are reporting revenue to the market and you missed your projections. So that's the easy one. But to that's that's the end, right? It's so it's everything that I've done since you know my early 20s is that reverse engineering mindset. It's obvious profit is the the end game. But when profit is the goal, you can skip things and you can miss important things that lead to it. So moving things back, who really paid in that situation? The students, the students that that should have gone to the campus and should have realized their dream, you know, in trade. There's a there's a large group of people that will never go to college and would never go to college for several reasons. And seeing them with their parents when they graduate within a year, and you know, the parents are crying like they just that like they're now a doctor. And I don't mean it to mean it because it like it's amazing. Some of them have gone on to do such an amazing things. So who got hurt the most? The first person, the person that was relying on me to to run a process and be true to it, to give them the opportunity to see the benefit and and chance to to go. Somewhere that they was better than working in a you know in a warehouse.

unknown 22:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

So in in analyzing, you know, your the excerpts from from your website and as well as your your personal experiences that that you've laid out, something that is very human about what what you what you said. And I think that's what I the point that I really want to drive in. It's it's it's human. For you, being in a situation of of power, influence, and again, and we're we're taking a step back, going through you're off the clock essentially, and you're you're you're not plugged in to work mode, but you're still in work mode. Like, where does this where does the satisfaction come from knowing that okay, I'm needed? I think that that's the the psychological ang angle is you know that you're important, right? Like you do you know that you're already important because you already bring the value. Now the m I guess my question, I'm trying to synthesize it, is did you feel burnout knowing that you were always need needed? Because you're you're the leader, and it's like you you you do have a sense of of ownership already because you're the leader, but now you you're always needed. Did that ever become draining for you? Being always needed and not being able to fully just let go?

Scaling Through Being Unnecessary

SPEAKER_00 23:40

I'm I'm sure it did. Probably not to an awareness level that I would I would you might expect. It was more on the business side when I went from I had a franchise in Queens that did really well. I got approval to open a second one, which was surprising because it was the the franchise was a self-employed, not in a business owner mindset, and they felt like you needed to be there, but I convinced them because we had such strong results, you know, for scale, and I'm terrible at this. We my direct buy location in Queens was selling 200 memberships a month at about$5,000. Then the second best location out of 160 was about half that. So they gave me the approval, which you know that that's for context more than anything else, to open one in Manhattan. No big deal. It's a 20-minute train ride. I could bounce back and forth. Got approval for a third one in Massachusetts. That's where we hit on what you're talking about. The awareness came through the break. The awareness came through me finally saying, I can't do it. Even if I wanted to, even if I am burned out, I can't. It's not possible. So I'd go to Boston and that week we would slow down in Queens and Manhattan. I'd run back to Queens, not physically. And and Boston would, if I stood up, he'd build what I'd, you know, it then Boston would drop. And that was that was the aho moment that that made me realize that I needed to change my priorities from being that person who was needed to having a goal of being unnecessary, which is a whole different type of empowerment that I've I've long since, because we're going back 20 years, realized that's that's the fun for me, is being the architect, not just in a business model, but an architect of identifying people's strengths and their leadership skills, giving them clarity in a very structured way of why they're doing what they're doing and what the outcome should be, and then watching them work and having them come to me and when they come started coming to me and saying, Hey, this is going wrong, what do you think? I would say, Well, why don't you work on it and call me back when you have a solution? Which was tough, you know, being a controlling person and an A-type personality, but it it paid dividends beyond what I could have ever imagined for a lot of people and the businesses as all.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

You know, and and that's valuable because I think as a leader, it's it's important to empower those around you. And then empowerment means that you can have growth because they say hindsight is always 2020, right? And you're going back 20 years. So if there were empowerment moments when you went to Queens, then maybe you didn't have to carry that weight alone because you could delegate and say, hey, well, you run this Tuesday, I'm going to Boston, and Wednesday I'm going to Manhattan. I, you know, how however, how however the logistics I'm not too clear about. But I but I I I it's it's funny. I've made mistakes as well, right? That I can't do it all. But it looking back now, it had I delegated in those moments, those things were achievable. So I there's a level of of of credibility to what you're saying because of the fact that you know it it's it's an identity thing. You have to actually reconstruct your identity and say, you know what, in order for me to evolve and grow, I have to take what I have learned and now use this to not make those same mistakes. And I and I think the things with a lot of you know, quote-unquote academics is that they'll learn the mistakes, but they don't necessarily execute after that. Because how academics focus and and and they they try to protect the identity versus trying to recreate a new one, a better one. And so I never thought of it as a knock that you didn't, you know, you know, finish college. I think that you wouldn't have been the person to have the the deeper connections that you've had later on, had if you had not gone down that path. Because what it did is it made you more relatable to others because you have a human story to always tell. And when another human being can connect with you, that's the greatest thing. It's like if I can relate to my leader, then I know that I could follow that person because there is right, there's engagement. There is, I can tell you, hey, the reason why I'm telling you this is because I did that last year or five years ago. So versus the system is perfect, uphold the system.

Cadence Over Pep Talks

SPEAKER_00 28:34

So that's definitely a lot of ways to get there, and you know, I I don't take a stance on what's right or wrong. It's it's individually based and it's what you get out of it, but you can get where you want in a lot of different ways. And and Heaton Phil, I think there's something important that I want to make sure that I'm clear on. Because if if I'm giving a suggestion that you just walk into your managers and say, you know, you can do it, let me know how it's going, you're you're doomed to failure. The the work is long before that point where you've created that like, trust, and understand where you where there is an open dialogue available to them, or else when they're struggling, they won't call. And you will you will be way behind before you even knew what happened. So that's really important. And and the way that I got there was first through cadence rather than than than the rah-rah speech. So as a as an example, every almost every business that I that I've met with their Monday meetings are to celebrate results or complain about results. And you you are setting the table for 10% of the people in the room to feel great. And unfortunately, they're they're your heroes. You know, you're the hero, you can be a hero as a leader, but you a lot of us lean on 10% of our team to run 90% of the business. So they're celebrated week after week after week, and the rest of your team is feeling less then. So my Monday meetings stopped a long time ago being about results and more about activities within that create the results, and beyond that, starting with questions. What did we learn last week? What can we take from last week and improve on this week? Open dialogue where everyone walks in out of that Monday meeting feeling like they're part of something and building it with you. So I will always have I run a five-day cadence on my meetings. You know, I not everyone can do that, and I don't mean two-hour meetings with everyone. You know, they could be five or ten minutes, but it's creating that consistent clarity where everyone knows what to expect, what they'll be talking about, and that creates the safety where they can return serve and feel comfortable telling you something's going great and we should share it with the rest of the team. Or, hey, I was the one that missed it this week, and I've sat back and waited for the results, and it's on me, and not being afraid. So that you know, I I I wanted to stop there because it's it's not just an open end trust your team and expect it to go well, or micromanage your team and be stuck in the room. It's the work that never ends that leads to that.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

You know, so Phil, Phil and I were we were having a conversation the other day, and it was it was it was about your work, of course. And you know, Phil was talking to me about you know a pattern, you know, which was signal interpretation and delay. And as such, I I want you to ask him the question that you asked me the other day. You know, please, you know, I didn't want to forget about that.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Oh no, of course. So uh so what should someone not trust about their thinking in that first stage, that first signal? What what's something that we really should not be trusting about our thinking?

SPEAKER_00 32:08

That the result is where your success is. If your if your eyes consistently look for how did we do last week, then you are blind to the steps and the cracks in the system and the operating system that will show up later on. You know, and again, as I said, collapse always whispers before it screams. And if you don't listen to the whispers because you feel like you're holding up, then you're going to you're going to see a a a cliff drop, not just a blip.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

So what should they pay attention to?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

No, that they keep dismissing the well it it starts it uh you know, they're they're simple thoughts, and I don't want to make it more than it is. So it it starts with genuine servant leader, wherever role you're in, and taking an interest in people every single week. All of your people. And it it you know, it's it's not handing them a pen and saying, Go work hard for me, and and and fake reciprocity. It's letting them know that you care about their future, where they're going. And if you have a hundred-person team, you can't meet with a hundred people every week. So you manage your leaders, but you create that environment, that culture of genuine interest, which will a return serve because they will work really hard for you once they know that you care about them and you genuinely care. And also, again, that that that culture and environment where everyone is moving in the right direction. So that that feeds into like, trust, and understand because you're you're building it organically and not not through you know fake acts of kindness. You know, you're really building it. So if you lose interest and you think that you can step back and just rely on other people to build the culture for you, then you're again, you're you're doomed to whatever's in front of you. And and that's a shame. And within that, you know, there's they're skipping, skipping those meetings and and not being consistent so that the clarity is there, and you're relying more on momentum from outside than the clarity of the steps every week. So it's it's following, and and you know, there I I have a really simple sixth law approach, and again, they're not a ladder, they're a they're a wave, and the last one's collapse. So every day you need to be focused on the other five because they're interchangeable and they rely on each other to avoid that collapse.

Servant Leadership As A Practice

SPEAKER_04 34:46

So I I do have one additional question. I know a lot of people talk about servant leadership. What what does that mean to you in within your business and within your life? How do you put that within your everyday work life?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

It's a it's a a simple thought and swing process that if you're not if you're not willing to do, then you're you're you're probably gonna be in trouble. First, you need to teach somebody how to do something. Then you need to, this is the one where most people don't want to do it, and sometimes I don't, you need to show them how to do it. Then you need to step back and watch them do it, and then you need to praise and redirect.

SPEAKER_04 35:29

Okay.

Poker, Rhythm, And Disruption

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Are you gonna ask your uh your your final question? It's funnel.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

So so there's there's rumors that you're a poker champion. Are you care to elaborate on that story a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, I I have some friends and we used to play, this is going back years. They would come once a month and we'd play in a house game like a bunch of you know 20-something year old idiots. And they they got more serious about it, and they wanted to go to Las Vegas to play in the World Series of poker. So I reluctantly agreed to tag along. My wife Grace came and and a bunch of friends, and fast forward, things went well. And at starting with 500 people, we ended up with 10, the final table. So they broke for lunch, and I invited everyone to lunch on me. Nine people, eight people said yes, one didn't. I was the tenth. And we sat down, and for almost two hours, an hour and a half to two hours, I just asked questions and listened. I didn't have a specific agenda. I was really just enjoying the moment because I didn't know that I had a right to be sitting at a final table in the poker tournament, and I still don't know that I do. And when we got back to the table, they all played completely differently. It f with me. It was so obvious to me when they were bluffing or when they were like they were almost outwardly telling the truth. And that lunge created, you know, going back, we just hit on it, reciprocity. And I it wasn't intentional, it just happened. They couldn't hide anymore because we had shared a bit of a bond through our discussion that that everything just opened up. So one by one they dropped off, and you can probably guess the last person that didn't that I was sitting next to was the person that did not go to lunch. So now we're down to two people, and this is a professional poker player, like eyes of steel. He he wouldn't give me anything. We went to a break to start, and on the way back, I made a decision to what they call play blind. And if you're not a poker player, what that means is you don't look at your cards, which is kind of really important in poker. A little bit. But I I knew that I couldn't beat him by playing cards against him. So rhythm works two ways. So it I couldn't create my own rhythm, I had to disrupt his. So the first hand I raised, and the dealer and the and the and the other player looked at my cards sitting on the table and they looked up, they looked at me, and I had raised and he folded. The next hand, same thing. He didn't bet. I raised, he called, which means that he put in the same amount of money. They flipped the cards, I checked, he went all in in one shot. Like all of his chips. I looked at my cards and I had an unbelievably great hand. So I naturally called, flipped the next card, flipped the next card, it was over in two hands. I won. And that was just a straight disruption of his rhythm. So it goes back to just everything in life operates the same way for me. And and you know, that those were two really important rules that I lived my life by that served me so well. And it's just funny because again, I'm I'm I'm not a great booker player. I don't know all the numbers, I don't know all the odds. So coming out with that victory was boy, that was great. And the coolest thing was one of my closest friends was starting his vet business. So I gave him a nice check and he started his business. Another friend, I gave him a big check that was there, and he, you know, bought his first house. I bought my ring, my wife the ring she deserved, and I said, okay, I'm done with poker. And I had I didn't play the entire time my children grew up at all.

The Rhythm Wave And The Book

SPEAKER_02 39:35

You know, you you you brought up two phrases that I know you're familiar with. Rhythm, wave. Would you would you would you be kind enough to explain that, what what that is?

SPEAKER_00 39:50

It's it's what we've been talking about, the understanding that if you ever feel like you're done and you've just climbed the rungs and you've gotten somewhere, then you're you're likely to suffer some type of collapse. And collapse is not, you know, a lot of times when people hear the word collapse, they think of failure. Collapse is actually a result of success. You can't collapse if you never if you never rose. So the the the rhythm and the rhythm wave is built built on the belief and the learnings that if you stick to five repeatable, simple, daily routines in your life and your team, and you don't lose sight of them, you avoid the sixth, which is the collapse. And you can never ever take your eye off the ball because you will you will lose.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

So you know, there there's this person that happens to be an author that that talks about these things. What in what is the name of your book?

SPEAKER_00 40:52

The name of the book is The Rhythm Wave. Uh the Rhythm Wave is available as Amazon. However, it's also available as a founder's edition to your listeners by website, Rhythm Leadership Group. So anybody that's interested in taking a look, go ahead and do there. You can still buy it on Amazon. I'd be really grateful. But go go ahead and just give it a read there. And I offer a 30-minute diagnostic to anyone that wants to talk about their business. I love talking about this stuff, as I think you can probably tell. I'm really interested in human stories and how they're evolving in their business and growing. So that there's never going to be a cost for that. And when I do work as a consultant, I don't work on contracts. So my my goal in everything is as these days is to be to be unnecessary. So I walk into a room and you tell me when I'm not necessary, or I know when I'm not necessary because we've now built something you can repeat.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

And I think that's a part of your legacy. When you go back, you you see that your your failures weren't necessarily failures, they were you learning, and now you get to instill those that value from your learned experience to others. One of the things that I I did find compelling, even on your LinkedIn page, when you're, you know, you take the time to share the excerpts, is that you're you're really pushing lived experience, right? Whether it's the kiosk story, you know, it is the it's your experience that you're sharing. And I think that's something that does bring value to people is in vulnerability is if I want to talk to you, again, being relatable to say that, hey, I'm a human, I can speak from this because this is what this was a pitfall of mine. And there's a level of vulnerability there, even with in the field of consulting. A lot of times, a lot of consultants will will they'll they're the expert, right? So they've clearly never made a mistake. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you have a high success rate. I think when you strip everything off, you know, take the ego, leave it at the door, and just say, I'm a human being, I messed up, I've learned from my mistakes. You know, you you can now you take take the uh the light bulb scenario into play. I now know a thousand ways not to make a light bulb. I now know a thousand ways to not do it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Absolutely. I and you know, the the LinkedIn post you're referring to is it's it's the way that I communicate in general. I I I try and use stories to create curiosity and let people go on their earn own journey to figure out what they mean, and then let them ask questions accordingly. And that fra that frames a dialogue that I'm really comfortable with because it does enable me to to to be honest and vulnerable. It does set the table because most of my stories are about what I did wrong and what you know how I tried to evolve from that. And and I I f I find that helps in. In almost all discussions, is not trying to be the one in the Ivy Tower saying, Look at me, I know everything. Do what I say, you'll be successful. Because I've I've failed on my own like that, and I've watched way too many people. And I left my last job when a culture change like that happened. And I just walked, I just walked out one day, just said, I'm I'm leaving now. And that's when I wrote the book. Turned out I had plenty of time and I'm not ready to retire.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

That that sounds like a very familiar story.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Yeah, I don't think I don't think I can do podcasts. You guys are too good.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

No, it it is it that is a very like compelling case to make.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

To me, that's like the true like Hallmark moment, right? It's like the thing about the movie, you're watching the movie, and like there's a mic drop because you've you're like, all right, I'm out, and then you go on, and you know, you just said you wrote the book, and then there's it's raw, it's visceral, and it's real because it's coming at a time, and it's not a slight to whoever you were working for. It it it if anything, it's wow, like I I gained something from this experience that I can now contribute to humanity to make people better. That's the compelling story in all of this is that inputs and outputs, you know, there was a cause, but there was also an effect. And that effect is there was wave and disruption and rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah, I like this, I like the simple lake waves, not the big ocean waves. Yeah, and I I I would say that anyone that that does read the book or talks to me, it's you know, this conversation, you know me just about as well as you're gonna know me. And when when people the the the feedback I've gotten on on the book is that it's it is written from a place of vulnerability and it's a really simple output. You know, somebody, somebody did the uh slap on the head and said, this should just be called leadership for dummies. Because when you read through it, it's like, well, that's obvious. The problem is obvious doesn't always meet lead to behaviors. And I I I do that there's nothing groundbreaking in what I think or what what I've written. It's it's more just a collection of simple ideas that when strung together and and consistently worked, yield predictable outcomes.

SPEAKER_04 46:26

Yeah, and they're not just simple ideas either. I mean, it takes a lot of courage to talk about your failures. It's the one thing that most people would be too afraid to articulate. You know, they'll learn from them, sure, but to really just go back and see where was the breaking point, where did I miss this signal? What did I do that caused me to ignore this and then to improve upon it and get that story out there so that other people can see it's okay to have these setbacks. It's important to tell these stories, and it really does take a lot of courage to get that stuff out there.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I I appreciate that, Phil. And I would say that I've been fortunate in my life to be in the rhythm wave, to be in an environment with you know, parents that took genuine interest and and let me trip and fall and make mistakes and follow an unconventional pattern. And that, you know, that that was probably the lesson long before the first 22-year-old Honda story is extremely comfortable in who I am, and I'm not afraid of my mistakes or or you know, now or in the past, I don't mind being called out, and I I like it. I you know, if you want to be unnecessary, you can't try and be the brightest person in the room. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

You know, can I, you know, I know I know we're getting ready to wrap wrap up, you know, but I I definitely want to pay you a compliment because there's this there's a a saying that I I live by, and and and Phil is probably gonna be annoyed about me saying this, but I'm gonna say it. Is that simple is complex. And and what that means for us is that P we turn come we try to have these complex systems. We make things complex. When if we took a simple approach, and because it's so simple, that's what makes it complex at the same time, right? It's this paradox. Because imagine if you came to work each day and I said good morning to you and asked how you were doing, and I'm engaged, and I I know your name, and I treat you like a person, and I don't treat you like a number. And you feel that you are valued by me doing those things. So you feel that that you are valued because I do check-ins. It's simple because we're supposed to say hello, right? It's it's like this this thing. And yet, if you go take the same situation, you come to work and I'm your boss, I walk past you, I don't make eye contact, I don't acknowledge you, I don't acknowledge the things that you accomplish. I don't say thank you, I don't tell you to have a good day. Oh, your wife just had surgery. Don't mention it, even though I know about it. It same situation, different outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Yeah, you're right. And that uh if if you don't mind if we're going over a little bit, it really leads to not at all.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

This can go as long as it needs to.

Simple Is Complex In Culture

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Well, there you go. Well, that's that's a good sign that you haven't cut me off then. So that I have something that that I call the box. And it's come it's come to be built over years of listening to all the reasons why people don't follow you or they don't buy from you, or any of those things. And you know, as you can imagine, the reasons can be in the hundreds. So what what what's the box is it's just it's learning where their hesitation lives. And it's usually only in one of four spots. So two two things. First is you need to take a lot of words, you know, what you made me think of it with the complex and simple. You take a stream of consciousness from someone, you listen actively, and then you return serve with a one or two sentence reply that captures where they are in your mind, and you ask for agreement. So, as an example, value is the first one that I always focus on. Have I created enough value for it for you to follow me, listen to me, do what I ask, or buy from me? So in yeah, at UTI, if someone said the campus was too far, they would it was a checkoff box in the CRM that said too far. But what does too far mean? So when you dissect with a team and you ask the questions, it might go something like, hey, Phil, you probably passed five campuses on the way to visit us today, right? Mm-hmm. You're probably thinking, well, why would I drive past five campuses to go to UTI? Right. Does that sound right? So I guess what I'm asking is, or I'm thinking, I haven't demonstrated enough value where you think it's worth the extra 20 minutes to get to UTI to advance your career. Is that fair? Yes. So let's talk about that. You're now in a value box. You're not in a a random, ambiguous drive time. So value, need. Do you need to make a change? And this again, it's leadership, sales, anywhere. Are you in a position where you need to do what I'm asking? Or you need to do it for yourself. The next is decision makers, which is a common mistake. If you're in a group of people, most of our eyes go to the person that's agreeing and nodding. But are they even usually those are the people that have no, they have no pressure because they're not part of the decision. So they can smile through your presentation or your discussion because there's no, there's no, there's nothing that they have to worry about. You need to find the people that are the true decision makers and turn them and make sure that they're the ones because the rest will lead those. They will follow those those folks. And the last is affordability. And affordability can be you're worth it, but can I can I pay for it? Or affordability can be can I take my time away from what I'm doing to do what you're asking? And every single thing I I've challenged people lots of times, come up with any concern or objection, and I will find a way to pivot into one of those. And that helps build clarity and trust and build a consultant mindset as a servant leader, as we talked about, where you're you're understanding and you're helping them get past an obstacle for themselves. Of course.

The Four-Box Clarity Framework

SPEAKER_02 52:32

So in in talking about you know, simple and complex, it if it if it it is, it is in in in and and if we're being as a matter of fact and we're being straight to the point, it is simple. Anything that we do do in life, whether you're going by the scientific method, it begins with a question, then everything comes after. So questioning why something doesn't work should be a thing that everyone kind of just does, right? But we don't in practice. For example, we go to work and and we'll have say that you go to work and there's surveys. So you do you do the surveys. Okay, not then what? Do you then reach out to your people and and and say, well, I noticed that you know 77% of the people here, they have a problem with the environment. They didn't say what the problem was, they just have a problem with the environment because that's a checkoff box. How do we make this be information that we can now execute? There needs to be an actionable outcome, right? And so again, I think that we've, as corporations and a lot of institutions, we fall into this uh pattern of checking something off the box. Well, I did my job, time to go. But that's not actually, again, to your point, bringing value, right? And value is important. And so whether it may not be a financial value, but it it's the question could be do I feel that I'm valued? And if you don't ask me questions, then how can I feel like I'm truly a part of something or that I matter? I'm gonna feel that I'm a number, and if I do feel that way, then I will also act as a number. If someone is sick, I will not fill in for them. I'm gonna go home. There is no investment. If you don't invest in me, I'm not going to invest in you. And sometimes a simple investment is just asking a question.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Agreed. One 100%.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Any thoughts, Phil?

SPEAKER_04 54:30

No, I mean, uh, we do see it every day and in our interactions. You know, to Oakley's point, it is just as simple as saying hello and that that basic investment that so many times people people pass by, just saying, hello, good morning, how is your day? What can I do for you? You know, not just here, but even outside of work. You know, what situations are going on in your life that we can, even if we can't help with them, that we show that we care and that we're understanding of situations so that they can be the best that they can be at work.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Yeah, I I I agree. It's it it stems from authenticity and curiosity and the realization that your success is reliant on a lot of other people. And if you don't build that foundation and trust to and heat to your point about the survey, number one, they're probably not going to fill it out. And number two, if they do, they're just gonna put check off whatever box you they think you want to hear because they don't want to get in trouble because you you you so it's that's that's the fake reciprocity. Tell me what you think, but tell me what you think I want you to think.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

We're happy. Two thumbs up.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

It's great, and then they leave. When I was at Universal Technical Institute, you know, it's a for-profit business, as it should be. They decided to cut compensation from the the admissions team, my admissions team by an average of about 15%. And I saw all of this in real time. I don't think we lost two percent of our staff in the next year. And because there was a belief beyond the dollars, and the dollars are always really important to the company, to the individuals, but having the ability to have real honest conversations about where some somebody was, let them know you supported them, whatever their decision was, and gave me the right and my team the right to say, okay, well, that's fine, but as long as you're here, can we agree that you're gonna keep working as hard as you can? And then you'll then it'll go where where it goes. And and they stayed.

Authenticity, Value, And Retention

SPEAKER_02 56:46

And that's a fair assessment. You know, I think people again, it it is so simple. And how people find define value in in our relation, in personal relationships. You know, we're all married, and if you go you go to your wife and you just make decisions and you're just constantly making decisions, well, where was my input? You took my ability to make a choice in the matter. Am I gonna feel valued there? You talk about reciprocity. If if yes, you you did take away 15% is is a significant amount. But if I know that I'm valued and I was a part of the process, that means that I was valued enough to be a part of the decision-making process. I chose to stay regardless because I was a part of the process. And I think a lot of businesses today, even when the on the business side of things say that a company is going to invest in their employees, how uh the the in the the intent versus the outcome sometimes doesn't land positively because the the institution is just doing something, but they're not including their their workers as a part of that process. Even though you're like, no, we're really actually giving, we're gonna give you an extra 15%. But if we didn't communicate, I something got lost in translation because when did you sit me down and say, hey, so here's what's going on. Here's the new initiative. We're actually giving you, we're not taking away. I heard 15% and I was gone because I thought I was gonna lose, I l lose out on money.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

That's why that's why I think that's what's really fascinating about your your framework. Again, it's so easy. It is so easy, but if everyone was doing it, then why would we be having the problems that we're having today? Why would why would people feel burnt out? Why, why would people have to worry about high turnover rates, right? Why?

Final Takeaways And Listener Challenge

SPEAKER_00 58:48

I think a lot of times we're just all prisoners of our own mind. Yeah. And we know where we want to go, and we can say the, you know, we can use the buzzwords and we can feel like we want to do it genuinely, but at the end of the day, is it serving m what I want today and what I need today? Because that's where we live. And it that the trick and maybe the most complex thing of out of all of it is to get outside of the the today and the hyper focus on the outcome and build something. Build something that can exist when you're not there, outside of the walls. That's that's to me when you've really won is what is when you are not necessary, you know, with children. You mentioned families. You know, I have a 22 and a 24-year-old. When they don't need me as parents, it hurts a little bit. As a father, it's an immense amount of pride that my wife mostly, with some of my help, put in the the work and the the time where they're they're doing really well now. So it's again, you know, I keep going back how it's all it's there's no difference between how you live your life day to day and how you run a business and lead a team for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

And you know, I I I want to then before we go, I want to say something that I think it's important to note. You know, you you mentioned, you know, not finishing college, and I think that that's an important thing is that sometimes people go into a system, right? And they measure their their value from a system, but not every the system isn't for everyone. And I think that early on, this is my personal interpretation, and what I thought was valuable about your story is that because you you weren't, I would say, strong word indoctrinated into that system, you then became a person that analyzed systems. It didn't matter if you got it wrong, but you were able to reverse engineer, re-optimize, then execute. Whereas a lot of times when people go through a system, if the system doesn't work, they're like, I'm gonna still use it anyway. And that's what we see. So I think there is a value for a brain like yours because otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation and you're making an impact in people's lives because you know how not to do something. And you're not a person that's reinforcing the systems that don't work, right? And I think that's a huge testament to you. And so we're very grateful for you reaching out and taking the time to do the the the the five of those five questions. You were intentional about all those things, and there there was a human component to it the entire time. And that's something that we definitely appreciate and we're grateful for. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Absolutely. Thank you very much for the compliment. Humbled to be on with you guys. You're you're you're intelligent business people, great questions, and and you know, this is this has been helpful for me and and in my next my next steps. So thank you so much for the time today.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

Absolutely. It it's it was very fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:52

What stands out isn't the decisions, it's the space between the signal and the action. That's where leaders lose clarity. Not because they lack experience, but because they interpret reality through who they believe they are in that moment. And by the time reality becomes obvious, the cost has already been distributed. This wasn't about what happens to do when things break. It's about what happens before they do. The signals are almost always there. The question is whether you recognize them or reinterpret them into something more comfortable. Kevin, I appreciate the way you stayed inside the thinking. If you're listening, don't wait for the breakdown to confirm what you already feel. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

If this podcast challenged you, good. Clarity often does. The point here isn't consensus or reassurance, it's to leave you more precise than when you arrived. Keep what sharpens your thinking, discard the rest. But don't confuse familiarity with truth. If this conversation mattered, follow the podcast and share it selectively with people who value depth and not noise. Until next time, stay disciplined with your thinking, selective with your attention, and honest about what you're really optimizing for.