Honoring the Well-Being Science and Evidence - with Jarrett Green

“It’s time for the legal industry to start actually honoring evidence and science as it relates to well-being. ... [O}ur entire profession is premised on the notion that evidence and facts dictate everything therefrom. Yet when it comes to how we live as lawyers and legal professionals, we are the single most anti-evidentiary profession in existence…"

On this episode of Practice Well(Being) we had the honor of speaking with Jarrett Green, Esq., M.A. - a former Skadden Arps litigator who left the practice of law so he could live his passion of helping lawyers, legal professionals, corporate employees, and other high-stress individuals experience less stress, more happiness, greater focus, improved productivity, optimized cognition, and enhanced overall success.  He has a Masters in Psychology with emphases on Neuroscience, Positive Psychology, and Cognitive-Behavior Psychology and is the co-founder of USC Gould School of Law’s nationally-recognized "Mindfulness, Stress Management, & Peak Performance Program." Jarrett consults and leads programs with nearly half of the AmLaw 100, and many Fortune 500 companies. 

In this incredibly enriching discussion with Jarrett we challenged conditioned notions of success and default positions of thinking while offering you actionable tips like:

• The single most obvious piece of evidence about what makes better legal professionals. 
• The power of 6 minutes.
• The magic of “amazing errors.”

We also talked about the biggest barrier to change in our industry and the small commitments we make that have the power to change everything. You will walk away from this thinking differently about the impact of practicing well-being.  You can find Jarrett at Jarrett-Green.com and on LinkedIn. You can connect with Nita on LinkedIn. You can connect with Becky on LinkedIn, Instagram or at her website – www.untanglehappiness.com  

Referenced in this episode: Atomic Habits by James Clear, Think Again by Adam Grant, Principles by Ray Dalio.

Transcript

In this episode of practice wellbeing, Becky and I have the distinct honor and joy of speaking with Jarrett green. Jarrett spent 12 years as a commercial litigator, six of which were spent at Skadden Arps. He left the practice of law a few years ago to do good work around his true passion, which is to help lawyers legal and corporate professionals, and generally high stress people experience less stress and more positive emotion to improve their work in 60.

Well, he is fully credentialed with a master's in psychology, emphasizing neuroscience, positive psychology and cognitive behavioral psychology. Jarrett is masterful at infusing humor and life experience into his work where he consults and leads programs for stress management and peak performance. For more than half of the Am Law 100 firms.

This is a deep and soulful conversation where we challenge our default thinking. And by. Jarrett makes an incredible argument for honoring evidence and science, as it relates to well-being suggesting this is the change we need most in the time we need it the most. And the science proves it. Thank you for listening in.

You're going to love this.

green. I like to say it was just a fortuitous opportunity that we had to connect, but I really don't believe that for one second. I had gotten to know you through a chief wellbeing officer of a large law firm out of Los Angeles, who said you have to meet Jarrett. He's important to the work that you're doing, and he is an amazing human being.

And while you certainly are important to, you know, the work that we're all doing here, it's kind of the amazing human being part that. Got me hooked and got me interested in wanting to meet you, you know, who doesn't want to be connected to amazing people who lift us up and inspire us to be better humans.

So, you know, I'm just so pleased to have you here with us today and talking to us today. And I don't really want to do any disservice, you know, with a drawn out introduction because I actually think. Your story will be so much better kind of coming from you. But I will say this that 12 years as a commercial litigator, working for a big firm, like Skadden and parlaying that into what you do now to, you know, advise firms and organizations and lawyers to kind of understand the connection between.

Emotional wellbeing and success. I mean, that's not really a traditional route, but I think given, I think you'll agree with this, given the collective, you know, shift in consciousness around wellbeing and engagement and success. It's certainly, you know, an important story I think, to hear for all of us, for all of our listeners.

So, you know, I guess I'll just kind of kick it over to you and say, you know, tell us more about you and how you elevated. Thank you so much for that incredibly gracious introduction and you and Becky for having me, I'm very fired up to be here. Super honored, the amazing work you both are doing, and I'm so excited and I hope this is helpful to your listeners.

You know, I think the only, it's very, very fine that you said that I'm an amazing person. I think the only thing amazing about me is how many, like an amazingly large number of errors I made in my life. That's pretty amazing. And I kind of struggled in so many different ways. Uh, at so many different levels that it became my gift in the long run, because I've kind of feel like I've screwed up in every possible way.

And that has given me the chance to, I think, have a deep sense of empathy for other people's mistakes and perfection. 'cause I really can taste the struggle regardless of what, any struggle that you know, people in our industry and we're all struggling in different ways. Um, but I feel blessed to have gone through a cornucopia of errors and mistakes.

Foibles ball drops, stupid decisions, all. So I think if I wrote a book on this topic, it would be called being stupid by Jarrett green. But the beautiful thing about that is I tried at a certain point to start learning from all that, and to, I had a deep yearning to become a better version of myself while I was doing all that, I was also an effective litigator.

Right. I was seeding and scanning and I had a very good reputation. Yeah. You know, um, I was very good at delivering product, all that, but what people didn't know is underneath, I was struggling deeply and a lot of people, you know, call it like, you know, duck syndrome where duct looks so cool. Common collective on a surface underneath is going crazy.

And that's what I was, I was always presenting, you know, the Skadden look, obviously I didn't look. Tom paints. As I mentioned, Tom Hanks in Castaway, although someone recently said, you don't, you don't actually look as much like con Hanson Castaway. You look more like Tom Hanks in Forrest Gump when he runs across the country showering, that's who you look like.

And I was like, thanks. That'll hurt a little bit. So whichever Tom Hanks. The shoveled version. I didn't quite look like that before. And I had the makings of, and the appearance of, you know, polished, refined. I have my stuff together and often felt like an imposter inside. And I had a yearning for greater authenticity.

I had a yearning to understand how to deal with my fear. I had a yearning to learn how to deal with anger. How do I feel? You know, when someone, a top partner cuts me down and I take it very personally, or I worked so hard on something and I get a red line that. A blood bath. How do I not spiral into shame?

Um, how do I not take my stress out on my family and friends and honor them and show up with love and compassion? How do I make the right decision to show up at that birthday party? Even if I have a huge deadline, 36 hours later, what's the right decision. How can I touch into an inner compass to know how to navigate that?

I knew none of them. And I had a yearning for it. So I just started to explore reading more and more reading. Eventually I started going to conferences on things related to well-being spirituality, self-actualization, um, emotional intelligence, mindfulness, and then eventually started deepening more and more.

I had an amazing coach and therapist is still my mentor to this day, Victoria Allen, who is an amazing vessel of wisdom, love and transformation. If it weren't for her, I'd be a very different human being and also started to spending a lot of time in mother India, uh, with masters of wisdom, masters of compassion and love.

Who have transcended a lot of the illusions that control most of us in the legal industry. So I just tried to absorb as much wisdom from these amazing humans. They are the amazing ones. So I've just now tried to take the information tools, techniques that I've learned from much more amazing humans. And just my role is, and legal industry is to be a better.

Where I can package information generated and channeled by much more amazing human beings, but I can channel it in an open and effective way that can land in the minds of super busy, super stressed out people who have a very small amount of time and they don't have 10 or 15 years to go on some deep spiritual.

Yeah, they might have 10 or 15 minutes matched. How can I offer value in that 10 or 15 minutes that could shift some unconscious thinking pattern or some behavioral habit or create some greater self insight or self-awareness right. So I consider that in my role and in sacred opportunity. So, I mean, I think it's really important to just kind of acknowledge, you know, where you've come from and how you've evolved to this state, but you are.

Like so many in this industry. I mean, part of your, I guess initial value system or what you were so great at as a commercial litigator, right. Was winning, you know, I think I've heard you say sort of strategically dominating, defeating. Like it's not your, it's a, both, and you you've always had kind of back, but it was this evolution or recognition or consciousness around.

There might be a better way of sort of engaging in, in the way that you do your work, as opposed to what I think I've heard you say in the past. I love how you've used that terminology before. And I'd love for you to kind of talk a little bit about that too. I'm happy to, I think that look, the legal industry is our Western or American legal industry.

In my opinion is a wonderful thing. Lawyers are critically important to a just fair society that functions properly. Um, we need very intelligent, uh, devoted lawyers and lawyering can, depending on your relationship, Loring pan feel like intellectual violence. If you allow yourself to be, uh, to practice that way.

And that's, I think a lot of us get conditioned in that way. Where you could be fighting for a very important cause I, of course this is less the case. If you're, you know, doing certain types of more collaborative work or negotiations and that aren't as harsh, but, uh, you know, I was a litigator and a lot of aspects of law and even many involving, um, M and a and negotiations and all that stuff.

You might be advancing some positive. Cause I felt that was the case. I did a huge amount of. In all of those cases, I really deeply felt I chose the cases. I knew the individuals. I really felt like I was helping an individual who needed and deserve, and they were treated unfairly and it hurt my heart and I wanted to help them.

And the mechanisms of litigation can involve intellectual violence where I felt like I didn't realize at the time until it kind of over time later that even though I was fighting for a good part is an important thing for a person who deserves it. The mechanisms of the litigation system. So it involves using my intellect to defeat.

We're trying to defeat the other side. We're trying to prove them wrong. We're kind of shoved the evidence in their face or need to impeach them. We need to show that they're lying. We need to demonstrate that they were violent or that they had poor intent. Right? All of these things that are built. The system appropriately.

So if you live your life every day, doing those things, it's not necessarily great for the heart and soul, unless you have consciousness. I think you can be a litigator who does those things who can bring up a light of awareness and consciousness and then do those things. With a certain detachment, not taking it as personally not being overwhelmed by the passion of anger of trying to push the other side, even if you're working for a good plus, I didn't have that ability early on.

So I was just kind of driven by kind of a lot of time base emotion. And that manifested in the form of a little bit litigation could be really kind of intellectual violence. It's not physical violence. It's often for a good cause. But it's a very aggressive way to lift. So I think that if people are practicing law and our litigators or any, uh, doing any sort of adversarial work, the question becomes, can I advance the best interests of my client and not become a perpetrator of intellectual violence?

Can I show up? With an open heart to the other side. Can I not become overwhelmed by the poison of anger? When the other side sends a nasty gram opposing counsel? Right? Can I raise my consciousness as you put it and be in the litigation, but not have it not controlled by. I started to figure that out a little bit towards the end.

And that's when people started coming up to me and asking me for support because they felt like I was navigating it differently. Friends from law school, opposing counsel, sometimes after cases like what's your secret. You seem to be navigating this differently. Once I started to do this shift, then I was able to experience the practice of law with a lot more inner peace, a lot more compassion for the ugly behavior.

But also with the same fire and passion for service, it's not like I just became detached from my clients' needs. It's like, no, there's a major violation here, but I'm not going to allow my zealous advocacy to toxify my heart and soul. What does that serve? So I think that's what I started to figure out a little.

And then when I figured that out, it became clear that a lot of other people are struggling with that. And maybe I can help them help them a little bit. It strikes me that as you were talking about it, right? Like there's the act that you have to do, meaning like the, whatever the impeach at them prove that.

Prove this prove that it's like a behavior and then there's the emotion. And then there's the role that your nervous system plays in all of that and how it may or may not be implicated, regulated dysregulated involved. So it's just interesting to think about it in those components. And I think you're talking about bringing a level of intentionality to something that we treat as one big bundle, but it's actually multifaceted and it's such a good, different.

Way that we are not taught to think about things and ironically, or maybe not surprisingly at all. It is literally the conversation that Nita and I were having before we got on this call. Um, so it just, it just, um, like really that really hit home for me today. And it brings me to a question if it's okay.

You know, you talked about. You had this great, I'll call it a great upleveling, a great expansion, a great awakening through all these years of study and experience. And you were very clear that not everybody can do that. And what you hope to do is be able to distill it and bring it to people in a more, you know, in ways that they can consume even within their busy lives.

Maybe it leads them on their own quest eventually. But as a starting point, I'm a rubber hits the road girl. So. What are the things that we can offer here, you know, one or two of your favorites, or however you want to approach it, but just real practical things that we can think about deploying. And you've given us one, which has start to distinguish this thing that we treat as a whole into all of its facets.

But what else. Because I have a hard time delivering tools without getting, uh, giving the nuanced explanation because that's a problem and well-being in the law. In my opinion, is if something is delivered in a little bit of a watered down way, the listeners quickly, especially in legal, they’re like, yeah, that's just more of that wellness nonsense.

So it's a really good question. And it's hard because I don't want to over-simplify even like simple, basic things that actually, I don't want to do a disservice. So like last night I did a 45 minute presentation in person to a small group of CEOs of law firms here in LA. And I'm not that I can't add value in 20 or 30 minutes, but that's about as short as.

I mean, if I'm going to give a tool in 15 or 20 minutes, but you don't want, I can't right now rattle off 15 or 20 minutes without stopping. So what I'll say on the high level, rather than giving something overly tangible is I think the biggest thing that I can offer in a tangible way very quickly in a minute or two is.

It's time for the legal industry to start actually honoring evidence and science as it relates to well-being. I think that can be the change of everything because our entire profession of course, is premised on the notion that evidence it's like from day one in law school evidence, what can you prove?

What's the evidence show? What's the inference from the evidence, right? What are the facts? It's like the first section in every case that we read in law school. Right? So our entire profession is rooted in evidence and facts dictating everything there from. Yeah. When it comes to how we live as lawyers or as legal professionals, we are the single most anti evidentiary profession in existence.

All of the evidence and it's not like the last five years, you both know this as well as anyone we're talking like 20 years of conclusive evidence and beyond, but literally minimum of 20 years of overwhelming conclusive evidence that if we spend time consistently working on our emotional well-being our happiness deregulating, our sympathetic nervous system.

As you. Then we access regions of our prefrontal cortex, activate high level executive thinking the activate, the amygdala fear center. We literally cognize better. We make better decisions. We memorize more effectively. We have better reading comprehension. Our verbal fluency or oral advocacy our written fluency.

No more writers block. Our focus, attention and concentration, not constantly being pulled to social media, web browsing. When we have deadlines, everything about the practice of law gets optimized and the science shows that. Yet wellbeing and emotional equanimity still I'd say perverse stigma in the legal industry, despite the conclusive evidence, it would be like the industry of teachers, high school teachers saying.

You know, in my personal life, I think reading is BS. I think learning, you know, learning just it's stupid when you really think about it, it's stupid. And then I'm walking into the classroom the next day and talking about the reading and the importance of learning. It's the height of hypocrisy. It's hilarious in that context, it's actually identical.

What we're doing as an industry. We are pounding the table from day one of law school, until we retire about evidence and facts and the single most obvious piece of evidence is that emotional wellbeing makes us better as lawyers. And wellbeing is actually viewed by most, as a changing as all the work we're doing, it's changing, but it's mostly viewed as intention with cognitive professional success.

And that's so much anti-scientific it's. So in violation of evidence, what I invite people to do is we don't need to necessarily, I think the most effective way is not necessarily changing. The underlying deeply held beliefs that that comes with time as we go deeper, but let's take our existing belief structures.

Let's take our existing, um, biases. And just apply them in intelligent ways that advance our happiness and advance our success. So, okay. Most of us in the legal profession have maybe a disproportionate attachment to either winning or material success or prestige or getting the new title. Right. It kind of elevates our artificial sense of self.

So that's fine. We all have. But let's at least do that most effectively. Let's do that in an intelligent way. And when we devote small amounts of time, so my recommendation is always like six minutes. So I don't think it's fair to ask really strict. Lawyers legal professionals. Who've been doing this for so long or they've just been, you know, even if we're new to the legal industry, their whole life they've been conditioned this way because suddenly meditate for three hours on the top of a mountain every day.

It's not fair. It's crazy. But I like to ask them, how many of you brushed for Keith this morning? When I talked to her. Uh, virtually 100% of the people raised their hand every morning, who brushes their teeth. I mean, there might be a couple of liars, but pretty much everyone raises their hand. Then I like to say, how many of you spend one or two minutes each morning doing a practice, exclusively dedicated to your mental, emotional, or cognitive wellbeing each morning.

And it's like, people's arms are pinned down. There's there's like usually around, depending on the group, two to 12%, maybe 1500. But one group of attorneys last year, uh, was on webinar and it was like maybe 35, 40 of a specialized group. And, uh, one person raised their electronic emoji. I was like one out of 35.

Oh, I was thinking inside and didn't say that. And I said, oh great. We have one. Do you mind chiming in to share what your morning practices? And he came off of mute and said, I'm sorry, I inadvertently hit that emoji. So the truth is I think the notion of actually facing that scientific reality of can we do a minute or two, we find time to brush our teeth.

We find time to shine. Right. These take time, even with these insane, crazy busy schedules, we find the time to do these things. So what I invite people to do is to start treating their brain and their heart with the same level of deference and respect that they treat their teeth and their skin. That's all, not even greater, just the same.

And if you do one or two minutes in the morning, one or two minutes in the afternoon, one or two minutes in the evening, we're talking about a six minute. Commitment. That's seven days a week, 42 minutes. There's 168 hours in the week. That means you still have 167 hours and 18 minutes to build like crazy handle all of your familial obligations.

There's plenty of times. So first and foremost, seeing that there's an illusion, this continual statement, I will, I don't have time to do this. I don't have, have you have time to shower. You have time to brush your teeth. You actually do have time. And the science shows in one to two. With some tools and techniques that maybe I can circulate in a different way, or I can share it in a different fashion.

People can track you down to ask you to track me down. That's right. That's right. And those tools, the science shows also the book that's coming out later this year, hopefully in August, has it all listed. And the science provided to which shows that in a minute or two. Many of these techniques, literally 30 seconds to a minute or two, we can have a significant drop in cortisol stress level, significant increase in cognitive function.

But we first have to be willing to acknowledge the science that's out there and then say, you know what, I'm going to practice this. Right. I'm going to see, see most people it's the cart before the horse. It's like, I did like one short meditation and my life didn't change. So I'm not going to continue my great teacher in India, Swami.

We couldn't do . That the process of internalizing wellbeing and getting the results is like going to the Delhi train station. He gives us example and it affects me profoundly. It's like going to the belly to train station and coming up to the ticket person and saying, hi, I'd like to take a train from Delhi to Agra.

And then the train person says very well, please give me a 500 word. And the individual says, whoa, no, I will give you the 500 rupees upon arriving in Aughra. But how am I going to know if I give you the 500 rupees that the train will take me to Aughra. So here's the deal. I'll pay you the 500 rupees. The moment we arrived.

Trained personnel says, sorry, it doesn't work that way. You have to make that investment. Give me the money. Then you get on the train and then you'll get the benefit of arriving in Aughra and they'd go back and forth on this way until the passenger says, this is outrageous, I'm leaving. So he's unwilling to make that pre committed.

For a later benefit, but that later benefit will only yield if he makes the upfront commitment. Similarly, we have to be willing to take a few weeks just as a scientific experiment, practice. Some of these tools and techniques each day, just for a few minutes, give ourselves three or four weeks. Then at the end of the three or four weeks, make a logical science-based assessment.

Did I notice any differences in my life over the last. Right. Did I notice a greater sense of confidence or equanimity? Was I a little less reactive when I got that challenging email, was I kinder to anyone else in my life? Did I actually articulate in court? My point more effectively? Did I negotiate with opposing counsel more effectively?

When the employee who reports to me gave a underperformance that triggered me, did I meet them with more ascended leadership, whatever. But only after making that commitment, can we assess the cognitive and professional benefits of wellbeing? But most people in the legal industry are unwilling to make even a short-term commitment to do a proper assessment.

And then they will continue to live the way they do for years and years to come. And they will never get to the. Of well-being it's the classic, it's the classic, like people wanting things to change, but not willing to do the thing to make the change. I think about like everything that you just said, there resonated so much with me because it's, did you ever read the book atomic habits?

So the whole idea of just kind of one, 1%, one small thing that you can do, and we are like, We don't exist in vacuums. Anything in our body does not exist in a vacuum in and of itself. Fascia connects everything, mind, body, spirit in our bodies, or like ecosystems. You made one small change. And the effect, the ripple effect that that has in other areas of your life, like you described Jarrett around performance or engagement or whatever that is.

And, and, and is something that with that one or two minutes or six minutes over a daily practice. And that's why it is also called a practice that you start to see that ecosystem. Shift pretty dramatically. And it doesn't just shift for you as an individual. It shifts for the entire community and world around you because you don't exist in a vacuum.

How you interact with other people changes, then they make changes and it is this ripple effect that continues forward and forward. And for. I love what you said. So I have to disagree with one thing that you said, are you ready? Yes. I want to disagree with the notion that you can't provide practical, actionable tips in a short period of time.

Do you realize how much you just gave us? And I just want to break it down just to pull it out for people. Number one, start using the evidence. That's actionable. Number two, look at your current beliefs. Where are you currently investing time in. In yourself, you get your teeth, your hair, your skin. Number three, make an equivalent or greater work.

Maybe slightly less than just make a similar investment in your welcome. And that can be very bite-sized and you can look at those things as maybe even like co-operative putties to reclaim some of that time. Like when you shower, could you tune in and be more present in that moment? Could you do a cognitive exercise?

Could you do a breathing exercise? So there's this, I mean, you just left us with like five or six different, really actionable things in a really short time. And I, I sincerely appreciate it. I do too. And I will say this, I think it was more than five or six. First of all, I think it was almost like a philosophy that you gave and the argument that so many, so many professional organizations kind of need to hear whether it's a law firm or otherwise right around.

It's basically the return on investment type of argument. Um, that is so critical to have. And I know that we're, we're kind of coming up on our time right now, but before we go into the rapid fire, I actually just want to. One more question that I'd love to kind of hear your response. And I think I know part of the answer because you sort of said it, but I'd love for you to articulate it succinctly.

What do you think is the biggest barrier to change right now in the legal industry or for professional service organizations of any kind? What is our biggest barrier to change? Is it mindset or. Thank you. I think it, I think it's definitely mindset and I think it's the unconscious mindset, right? That we're stuck in as an industry and as in many industries in the illusion, That, what has worked in the past is necessarily the best way.

And even as an industry, but also as individuals, right? A lot of people have a hard time saying, well, I graduated from law school. I have this great career. I'm making this kind of money. I'm it? This kind of organization, whatever it is, there's very clear markers of success, even if we've all struggled along.

But the assumption that we can't become significantly healthier, happier, and significantly more successful is, is an Ottawa, um, especially in light of the countervailing evidence. But I think it's a mindset. I totally agree with you. It's I think as an industry and as individuals, I think we have to change.

The way we think we've you and I have talked about Adam Grant's book. Think again, that came out late last year and it's yeah. And that's kind of, I think a book I would recommend to anyone listening to this about the importance of challenging the way you think all of us, but our industry does it indoctrinates us to believe that shifting perspectives being fluid in our positions is a sign of weakness.

Or being a flip-flop or someone who folds easily, and that's a bias that's very dangerous as opposed to that's a strength. That's a core competency of a great, um, professional leader thinker, and also a person of integrity because we all make mistakes. We all make decisions based on the information we have, but if we're not willing to continually recalibrate and continually challenge, whether.

What got us here will get us there. And whether or not we should keep doing this, or should we think about it differently? I think Ray Daleo in the book principles is another one I highly recommend for anyone who's listening to this. Someone who's demonstrated by building 160 billion with a B dollar hedge fund in Manhattan in wall street.

The number one hedge fund by far in the world. Global financial dominance and he has been preaching this and he says, this is the biggest reason his organization has been most successful. Hedge funds are obviously not exactly. You know, cuddly work environments, but his has the highest employee satisfaction rates, lowest turnover rates, lowest incidental costs related to disability.

Leave all that stuff. So comparatively it's a significantly better culture than any other hedge fund, but they significantly outperform them financially every single year. Well, he talks about exactly. Being able to assess, like we all have these blind spots, these two primary blind spots, the ego barrier, the blind, I'm sorry.

The two biggest barriers to success. You described them ego barrier and blind spot barrier, and it causes that. To come from a place of inner petulance that we're always right. And then there's nothing we can do better. And it keeps us being way less successful, way less happy and having far less healthy relationships.

So, um, one of the things he recommends is having a continual, um, a confidence rating on our positions and our own opinions. And that's just a healthy. If you have a dispute with your spouse or your significant other one thinks that the child should go to this school and thinks the child should go to that school.

That's great. But it's normally unconsciously framed by narrowly if we say, okay, great. Let's each state, our confidence level. It's very interesting. We pause. It's like, well, I'm not out of one to 10. I'm not a 10. We might think we're an eight, but we probably aren't. But even that there's a little bit of.

I'm an eight. I'm not a 10. Okay. You're on both. Let's explore the space. Why aren't you a 10? Why am I not a 10? Let me explain why I'm not at 10, right? That's where we start to find spaces for our own certainty, that the other person is being disrespectful after that email. How confident am I that they're actually being mean-spirited and jerky rather than perhaps overly stressed out.

Maybe they're dealing with a burden in their personal life. Maybe their kid is sick and maybe they snapped on professionally. How certain am I am that they are being an obnoxious jerk that my mind in one 10th of a second assumes they're being. So I think the practice. Challenging our thoughts. Um, you know, we're so great at, in the legal industry.

Cross-examining redlining opposing counsel's positions, but we have to start redlining and cross-examining our own default position. I mean, this has been amazing. I think that, um, it is clear that we could talk on these topics for a long time. And I love the energy, you know, that you have for the work that you're doing.

We usually end our show with a couple of rapid fire questions, but you've already answered some of our standards. You've told us about some people you admire. You've told us about some great resources, you know, you just named two great books. So, um, need to, do you want to. One question from what's left. I have one question that I just want to know the answer to so that we can leave everybody.

Cause I know whatever you say is going to be amazing. Who inspires you? For people, my wife, Rebecca, Rebecca Simon, Greenbook cones this business and she's one of the wisest, most loving, most high integrity pupil on the planet. And she lives the principles we're talking about and watching her show up this way, inspires me to try to live these principles more.

So she's definitely a person who deeply inspires me. And I'll just say my two greatest teachers I'll conclude them as one from India, supplying Mukunda Nanda and, um, neem Karoli Baba who both have dedicated their lives in curly Baba left the body, but they both have dedicated their lives to. Selflessly serving other human beings and neem Karoli Baba is only piece of guidance and his primary piece of guidance, no matter what you were going through mentally, emotionally, spiritually was very simple.

He wasn't fancy. He said, feed people, serve. People, love people. And if we just try our best to do those three things every day to, to feed the hungry. To serve people who are hurting and to love other people. That's the highest form of practice. That's my inspiration. And that is exactly what you do now with the work that you do.

So we thank you so much for being here today. It is an honor always to be in your presence, to speak with you and to learn from you. And I will say this, that both of you very much inspire me, and I could not be more grateful for this connection that we have. So thank you so much. Uh, the last thing that I asked that we'll probably close with is Jarrett green.

How do we find you for our listeners? You know, you could find move here and there a local yoga studio, or if you like, you know, playing the drums somewhere. To contact you. How about that? For those of us who don't live near your local studio or your drum playing locales, just, you know, go to our own, um, where it might, we find you in the ether, Garret bash green.com.

And LinkedIn as well under my name, but kind of embarrassed about my website. Cause it's like, I think we built it in 1987 and I haven't updated it since then. So it's actually one of the process right now, hiring someone to do like a whole whole thing. So enjoy the, you know, the, the retro intranet version of my.

You know, it, it's a connection point and that's all that matters. So thank you so much for this connection point and have a great day, everyone. Thank you, Becky, and things you need to, this was such a privilege and honor, I, I honor, I admire and appreciate you both. Hi, this is Nita. You can connect with both Becky and me on link.

Links are in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you. If you know someone who is doing meaningful work that contributes to wellbeing and think they'd be a great guest for our show. Please let us know. And if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. .