Unfiltered Sessions
Unfiltered Sessions Podcast
Raw. Real. Unfiltered.
Building a business isn’t just about numbers and strategy—it’s about long hours, sacrifices, and the relentless pursuit of something bigger than yourself. Unfiltered Sessions is where we strip away the fluff and talk about what it really takes to scale a business, balance life, and delegate like a pro.
From personal updates on the journey of growing my own business to candid conversations with entrepreneurs and industry experts, this podcast is about the real stories behind success—the struggles, the wins, and the lessons learned along the way.
If you're a business owner trying to do it all, wondering how to scale without burning out, or just looking for honest conversations about life and entrepreneurship, you're in the right place.
No filters. No sugarcoating. Just the truth about business, life, and the power of delegation.
Unfiltered Sessions
CREATE Team AUTONOMY and Drive SUCCESS with Jurriaan Kamer
Discover the keys to modern leadership with Jurriaan, a Dutch organizational change expert who transformed his IT background into a mission to revolutionize management. Jurriaan shares strategies for fostering high-autonomy, high-effectiveness teams while leveraging the Netherlands’ linguistic strengths to excel internationally. Learn how his journey shaped his approach to consulting, speaking, and co-authoring "Formula X," creating a powerful synergy that builds trust and accelerates business growth.
In this episode, Jurriaan dives into the art of authentic leadership, exploring the impact of storytelling, modeling behaviors, and fostering psychological safety. Gain actionable insights on overcoming organizational inertia, enhancing decision-making, and transforming meeting cultures. Whether you're an aspiring leader or a seasoned executive, this conversation equips you with tools to drive meaningful change and forge stronger connections through effective communication and LinkedIn outreach.
NOTABLE QUOTES
"In the consulting work..., being able to stand on stage and share new ideas to a larger audience is a really important skill to have." – Jurriaan
"If you're starting out and you want to become a speaker, I would recommend to do it at least 10 or 20 times without asking for a fee, just to get the reps in and to build your skill." – Jurriaan
"There's so many consultancies out there... and the only way to stand out is to have videos, to have a book potentially, so you can become a little bit more famous, and you can get unexpected reach from that." – Jurriaan
"It was actually the speaking gig that helped me get that book out of the door." – Jurriaan
"If you're a positional leader and you're unable to create any followers, you're not leading anyone." – Jurriaan
"[Organizational change] starts by modeling the behavior and doing the change yourself before forcing others to change " – Jurriaan
"If we want to start creating change, we need to start actually doing the work before we actually start talking about it. Our actions speak a lot louder than our words ever will." – Philip
"You can always transform how your team works, or your department works within that bigger picture." – Jurriaan
"It's really about building the capability to continuously find problems and improve them." – Jurriaan
"You build a movement by inviting people, not forcing people to join you." – Jurriaan
"The places where people are willing to change are often on the edge of the organization." – Jurriaan
"Go out there and make that change by being the one to lead it first walking the walk and not just talking the talk." – Philip
RESOURCES
Jurriaan
Website: https://www.jurriaankamer.com
Book: Unblock: https://a.co/d/fOWt6gO
Book: Formula X: https://a.co/d/cODNSsZ
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jurriaankamer
Philip
Digital Course: https://www.speakingsessions.com/digital-course
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamphilipsessions/?hl=en
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@philipsessions
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philip-sessions-b2986563/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/therealphilipsessions
What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Speaking Sessions podcast. I've got Jurjen here and he is a Dutch organizational change expert focused on applying modern methods to unblock organizations and improve their outcomes. He helps leaders make more impact by eliminating ineffective strategy, pointless meetings we all love meetings bureaucratic structures and slow decision-making. He has been in and around the most radical and adaptive organizations globally, including ones without managers and high levels of autonomy, which that sounds very exciting. But we're going to get in and talk about organizational leadership. We're going to talk about his journey becoming a leadership. We're going to talk about his journey becoming a speaker. We're going to talk about his book as well and really how that's helped him become a more renowned speaker and be able to get on more stages. But before we get into all that, yurian, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thanks so much for having me, Philip. I'm really excited, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm excited as well. I know you've been waiting longer than me. I've had to reschedule on you several times with Hurricane Helene, some escalation meetings coming up, all this stuff. But I appreciate your flexibility there and grace as well to be able to change things up. But we're finally here. Hit record as soon as we could, because we want to make sure that nothing else gets in the way of getting this recorded.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, you never know, so let's dive into the journey, and everybody's got a very unique story, their journey, how they kind of got to where they're at, but especially your speaker journey. But we love to hear about the organizational side also. But talk to us about your journey and then we'll start unpacking after that to really bring some value in here to the audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started out as an IT nerd being obsessed with technology.
Speaker 1:I'm an engineer right here, so we're right there in the nerd levels, yeah so I was all into that for a long time.
Speaker 2:But I was able to get roles into managing IT departments and managing large amounts of software development teams and figuring out how they work together and that made me super interested. More, actually, that made me more interested in the human side of things and so human problems instead of computer problems. And, yeah, I started to work more into modern management techniques and trying to figure out how that all works. I wasn't really impressed with the typical, more hierarchical structures that I encountered when I was working in companies, so I thought there must be a better way. There must be a way where we can have groups of people work together with high levels of autonomy and get them to work together. So, yeah, I started taking interim roles and then, over time, built a consultancy company to help leaders achieve their goals better.
Speaker 1:And so is this a global company now, or is this just more Netherlands based, because I know that's where you're based out of?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm based in the Netherlands, but we have clients all across the world. We work a lot with multinationals actually, so it's fun to be able to work across different boundaries and work within all sorts of cultures. And yeah, just it makes it more exciting for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and does the Netherlands? Do they speak multiple languages. Usually most European countries are their native language in English, but they speak multiple languages. I mean, usually most European countries are their native language in English, but is there multiple? I can't think of that. There's a country I think Switzerland and Northern Italy. They have like four or five different languages. It seems like everybody speaks there. Is that kind of same thing with the Netherlands, or is that just basically Dutch and English?
Speaker 2:Oh, we do have Fries, which is a separate, separate language, uh, in the North of the country. Um, but um, it's not. It's not that complicated. It's not like you're in Belgium where half of the population only speaks Dutch and half of the population only speaks French, which is kind of challenging. Uh, no, it's, it's, it's Dutch. But like, honestly, we were, we're grow up, grew up here with really good English education. So if you're a foreigner going to visit Holland or you're going to work here, it's actually pretty hard to learn Dutch because everybody immediately switches to English the moment they discover that you're not native Dutch.
Speaker 1:Oh man, that's funny. I've been to Germany a few times and it seems like they don't want to switch Right right. Funny, and I've been to germany a few times and it seems like they don't want to switch right right. So if you can learn a little bit easier, for sure that will be tough if you move there, but I'm sure people as, if you move there, okay, we can, we can switch back to dutch and everything like help you learn, but yeah, yeah, yeah that would definitely make it challenging.
Speaker 1:Everybody's ready just to start speaking english?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean. I mean, we are a trader company, so we have a history of trading businesses all across the world, from the Netherlands. So, yeah, we're very open to switching our language and making it easier for somebody to talk to us. Right, and it has helped us. The capability of doing that allowed me and my colleagues to work everywhere because, you know, english is the main language in most places, so that helps, yeah, yeah, then I mean, I'm barely picking up an accent from you.
Speaker 1:I probably have more of an accent than you do, but you know there's not really a lot of that accent there where some of these other countries that English is a second language, that's. There's a lot of an accent there, I guess, unfortunately, especially from a business perspective. So that for sure would help you guys out in the Netherlands and everything, be able to be more global and everything. So it's really awesome that you've got this company that's global, and so how has the company side and the speaking kind of paired together?
Speaker 2:side and the speaking, kind of paired together. Yeah, so so I did a lot of research about how companies like Spotify and Google and Facebook were able to innovate this quickly and get software out of the door. That was just amazing people, and I wanted to spread that word. Uh, you know, send, give people an impression of what I've learned. Um, first I did that through writing, so I read, write, wrote several blogs that were well read and well shared. First I did that through writing, so I wrote several blogs that were well-read and well-shared.
Speaker 2:And then I really wanted to get on stage somewhere to talk about it, and I saw a conference in London that I really liked, but I couldn't afford the ticket price. Honestly, I was just starting out and I was like this is a very, very expensive ticket to buy, but I love to be there to listen also to the other speakers and talk to people. So instead of buying a ticket, I decided to just send the organizers a pitch for my speech and it's like well, I have this story to share, would you like it? Luckily, they said yes and then I said oh, wow, that means I have to build a speech from scratch. I hadn't been on stage before. So I was like, okay, now I get this gig, how do I do it? So the first thing I did, I rehearsed a lot of times in front of a camera, in front of other people, really trying to practice, practice, practice and to get to a first level that I was comfortable doing it.
Speaker 2:And then when I hit the stage, I think it went well. It was my first big thing, um, and that that allowed me to uh, to connect with more people and to grow our business, because we got some clients in the room that were interested and you know, I think I think that's the snowball effect the moment you are on stage, more uh, you, you get a big, bigger reach, a bigger audience and uh, you, bigger reach, a bigger audience, and that really helps. There was a pivotal moment the moment somebody recorded my video in high quality at one of the conferences I was speaking at and the moment I published that, that really helped getting even more speaking gigs, because if you're hiring a speaker, you want to figure out is this the speaker for me? I'm taking a risk here because I'm hiring a speaker but I don't know this person.
Speaker 2:So the speaker videos that I had over time really kind of exponentially grew the interest, and that all feeds into each other, because the moment you're on stage you might get more interest for consultancies but also in the consulting work itself. Being able to stand on stage and share new ideas to a larger audience is a really important skill to have, because when you're doing change management consulting that I do, part of that is sharing completely new ideas that people haven't heard before and getting them interested and curious about what it could mean for them. So yeah, it's a skill that it's a double-edged sword, I would say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I like that. So I definitely want to go down this route of how you communicate these new ideas, because I think that's something very important for all of us to learn about Before we go into that. I really, really want to dissect this whole idea because I really believe there's a lot of power, and that's what I'm starting to use with a new business endeavor that I have with virtual assistants is leveraging my skills of speaking to speak about how delegation all this stuff to then get more business from that. But I would love to hear how you're going and speaking on these stages. Well, first of all, I want to acknowledge that it's awesome that you actually just pitch yourself and then had to figure it out along the way. Total entrepreneur right there, Just figure it out as you go, but then you start actually you're leveraging these speaking opportunities. It sounds like to really build up your business.
Speaker 1:So talk to us about that, because I think a lot of times when we think about speaking, we think about getting paid to speak, and there's really kind of two ways to get paid to speak. Either you get a speaker's fee or you get to sell on that backend, and even then I like to say, there's a third one, which is you don't sell a product or service on the backend, you more just provide so much value. You get credibility, and then people come to you afterwards and say, hey, I saw you on the stage, would love to talk to you about your business, and you really just provide a value. So it's really to me that third way you can make that money is through building that personal brand and building you as an expert. So talk to us about that, how the speaking has really developed and grown your business on that side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're totally right. I think those things are really true. When I started out, I was not expected to charge any money for the things I was doing, so I did, and I know. If you're starting out and you want to become a speaker, I would recommend to do it at least 10 or 20 times without asking for a fee, just to get the reps in and to build your skill, because if something is not, you know if it's not a paid engagement, the stakes are also lower. Like it's okay, like people are, you're just there as an expert sharing your ideas. You can be really vulnerable and just asking for feedback right after you delivered your speech, from the conference organizer, from people in the audience. I think it's just really helpful to start out that way.
Speaker 1:And actually let me interrupt you. So I should ask this before going into how you're building your business. So you mentioned about the 10 to 20, do them free. And you mentioned some about having like the videos and getting that, and it's kind of like because, like this, basically you've been on more stages, people are seeing it through, like the videos and stuff like that highlight reels that you were able to then get on more stages, so like really was a snowball effect. Talk to us about that real quick. Like what, what made you decide to do that? And what are some of those things that we could do to make sure we're presented as, oh, we're always we're speaking on a bunch of stages and stuff like that, so we can get more stages?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think as a, as a speaker, you have to figure out what your, what your angle is or what your story is, the thing that you are really passionate about talking to. That also is valuable for a number of audiences and you know that. That that should be the core, the core thing for me. That over time became the, the, the overlap between Formula One, motor racing and business, which is something I stumbled into, and I can talk about how that happened. But that became my signature speech and when I was getting more inquiries and I became more confident about how that story actually was good enough and valuable, at one point I asked I'd love to come to your conference and you don't need to pay me for it, but I would love for you to produce a professional video. Right, you know, could you organize or get a camera crew there and create a professional edit of it, and so I can put it on YouTube? And sometimes a conference has that already in their package.
Speaker 2:But I was just very explicit that that was a condition for me to come over and the helpful thing about that video is that, like I said, like then, um, somebody looks it up, they can, they can find it, they can, they can, they can hire you, um, at a certain point in time, because the speech became good. After all those reps and after those feedbacks, after that feedback and stuff, I basically was in a situation that every time I was on stage, at least one other speaking gig came out of it. So you know, you have a even if it's just a 30 or 40 people audience, um, literally for for months and months, every time I did that, uh, at least one other paid engagement came out of that and that kind of snowballed. So that that's kind of the, that's the, that's where you want to get to, uh, at that stage, and that really helped I like that.
Speaker 1:yeah, so really, obviously you were on the stages and then, yeah, instead of in lieu of a speaker's fee or getting paid to speak, you know you were like, hey, I'll do it for free, just bring in somebody to do video, which really benefited them, because they probably already wanted to do the video anyways and now they just had an additional reason to do that or they probably already had somebody there. So now they save the speaker fee by now giving you some of that video directly, obviously for your speech and everything so awesome. So I appreciate you getting interrupted to share that portion. Now, how has the speaking, besides obviously getting more paid gigs, helped the business side out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's really a triad of things. So it's the consulting business, so the engagements we do with clients, longer term engagements, it's speaking and it's the books. It's a combination of those three things that are really important to market ourselves. There's so many consultancies out there, thousands and thousands of them, especially smaller ones like us and the only way to stand out is to have those things, to have videos, to have a book potentially, so you can become a little bit more famous and you can get reach unexpected reach from that.
Speaker 2:But we got speaking gigs from or like consulting gigs from, just somebody either watching the speaker video or somebody picking up the book or both, and then you know having both, both a book and a video, and they're like Hmm, I trust these people, I really liked them, and that those are the easiest sales conversations because people already know what you're up to, people already trust the message, they believe in it. You don't need to convince them of anything. The only thing you need to figure out is when to start and how much to charge. So that really helps and that has consistently helped us get business.
Speaker 1:Wow, so many things really unpacked there. I want to hear about this book for sure, but having those unique things for sure, like you're speaking, so people really get to know you, because if you're speaking for anything more than a minute, you can't put up that much of a front for that long, especially when you're being truly genuine, truly being yourself, so you're able to do that. But you're also able to speak and educate people and so really show that knowledge. But then that book as well I mean it's something that's on paper. Now, depending on how you wrote the book, I can get to know you and who you are.
Speaker 1:So now I'm building this know, like and trust even more with you. But then now I've learned something from you and now I want to be able to work with you. I know that you know that information because you wrote the book, you've spoken on it. So like two great ways to really build up that business and really get that know, like and trust before they even come to you. It's like you said when that sales conversation happens. It's basically like, okay, are you ready to start? Cool, let's go Like you're not in there, really sell them at that point and everything. But talk to me about this book is I'm sure that relates to what you're speaking about and the business as well correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah. Just to touch back on your point first is like imagine the alternative, which is like hey, we are looking for somebody to help us. We've asked four consultancies to give us some ideas. Could you create an SW and go through our procurement process? And that's completely cut through to words. Hey, we love what you do. I want you let's figure out how to start and what the charge and what the terms and conditions are. So just to give you that contrast of how some consultancies and I've been there at that place I was super happy to get an inquiry, but then I had to figure out. I had to jump through four other hoops and discovered that there were three other competitors pitching for the same thing. So yeah, it's much harder, it's just harder. So that helps. It opens a lot of doors.
Speaker 2:To go back to your question about the book, funny enough it was speaking that got me to write the book. I always had an ambition to write a book, but I wasn't really intentional about it. It was never the right time, or it's also one of those skills that you have to learn how to do and uh, and and and uh. You have to stumble into the right moment. Basically what happened. I was asked to come and, uh, join a group of executives, um, that were going to visit the Red Bull Racing Formula One factory and they were asking me to do a speech on the evening before the session. So it's like a warmup thing for the first night and I said, well, I can come over, but I'm going to do two things. First, I would love well, first of all, one condition is that I also get to visit the factory like the others like to go behind the scenes of that Formula One team, because I really was interested in how it all works from the inside. And secondly, I would love to try to create a different version of my speech that is fully Formula One focused, because I didn't have that at the time and they said yes. So, basically, the evening before I started talking about my basically my desk research of everything I could find about potential examples of how F1 teams worked and what I noticed in my research. So I wasn't there to convince them of anything, I was just sharing what I thought was interesting when I was looking at it through the organizational lens.
Speaker 2:And the next day I got to validate or invalidate some of the things that I was speaking about before and that actually snowballed into that Formula One speech. That just became the signature thing time my co-author reached out to me and he's a famous business book writer in the Netherlands and he says well, I'm writing my next book and it's going to be about organizational speed and about accelerating organizations. The world of Formula One is becoming bigger here because we have our Dutch driver. The Dutch Grand Prix is coming back. Would you like me to let's talk about that? And then we decided to to write the book together, and the rest is history.
Speaker 2:Um, so it was actually the speaking gig that helped me get that book out of the door. And from that book, um, people, people just started buying a whole boxes of books the moment I did a speech. So, like, that's the other good thing about having a book If you are on stage, uh, you can, can say you know what I'm on stage, would you like to have a book for every participant? And then you're able to kind of amplify that snowball effect. So that's my first book.
Speaker 1:That was five years ago now, that's awesome, and has that book also helped you with getting more speaking engagements too?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly yeah, like I said before, the moment, the book, the book has reached people in unexpected places. Uh, I mean, I, I sometimes get a get increased from South Africa or from from Indianapolis. You know somebody is doing a racing, racing focused event in in, uh, close to the you know Indianapolis motor speedway where the Indy 500 is done. And they, they found me I don't know how, but by typing in Formula One, racing acceleration, business organizations. And it also helps with SEO. If you have a book out there, google amplifies those keywords.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, that's awesome. So talk to me more about the. I guess, where is that book at first of all? Or is it on Amazon and stuff like that? Oh yeah, it's on Amazon, yeah.
Speaker 2:Formula X. It's called.
Speaker 1:It's a business fable.
Speaker 2:So for those of you so maybe familiar with Patrick Lencioni he's a business book writer who uses fables like the five dysfunctions of a team is a good one, and I was inspired by that format. So it's literally 80% of the book is a story, a fiction story, about a leader that is trying to accelerate how their organization works. It's a kitchen factory, for some reason, and he gets inspired by the world of motor racing and how they organize behind the scenes, and so that's the first book, and there's a small theory chapter in the back. My second book is a lot more practical and it just came out. It's titled unblock, clear the way for results and develop a thriving organization. It's also on amazon and, um, yeah, it is. Uh, it's a practical book for leaders that want to um, you know, get better results by unblocking their organization in in lots of different areas awesome and that's a perfect segue.
Speaker 1:where I wanted us to go next was really talking about that organizational leadership and I guess, before we kind of really get into organizational leadership I mean I love leadership talk about that. How has being better at speaking helped you with building out your business and how do you think it can help other leaders with being a better leader by being a better speaker?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think. I think leadership, um, is all about uh, my true leadership is all about finding followers. You know you can be a leader on, on paper, you know because you are appointed to a very nice job title, maybe a C-level title somewhere. That is positional leadership. But real leadership is you're able to create followers, meaning that if you're a positional leader and you're unable to create any followers, you're not leading anyone. It's, it's, it's just you. You know, using your power to get somewhere, um, which which is not what you want. So the the, the two, but to get somewhere which is not what you want. So, but to get followers, you need to articulate where you want your organization to go and it really helps if you're able to deliver that message cohesively, passionately, using storytelling, using all sorts of techniques that we learn as public speakers. So I think public speaking skills for leaders are really essential to be able to get an organization or a large group of people to follow you and to go into a certain direction.
Speaker 1:And what are some of those like key things that you found like being if you can only pick like one or two part of like public speaking skills? What are some things that you think that leaders should focus on and improve those things to be better ish overall as a leader?
Speaker 2:I mean, storytelling is a big part of it. You know, are you able to, to connect the dots for the audience through storytelling, through, you know, finding interesting metaphors or interesting examples and, uh, you know, engaging the audience by, by using and building a cohesive and interesting story to listen to. And the other one is about delivery. Are you comfortable being on stage? Are you comfortable in projecting confidence into the room? Are you comfortable doing that dozens of times rather than are you going to be nervous, or are you terrible at speaking publicly? I mean, the opposite is, you can imagine, really it doesn't help. So, yeah, that's one part.
Speaker 2:I would also say that public speaking is important. However, I'm also doing a lot of workshop design and how do you engage with a large group of people in organizational change, and that is not only about speaking. Speaking is a very important component of it. So you set facilitating conversations in the room rather than death by powerpoint, which you all well, we also see a lot. So, um, yeah, so it's a contrast, it's an additional skill that it's not. It's not directly public speaking related, but it does create a lot more impact yeah, yeah, completely agree there.
Speaker 1:And so now with the organizational leadership, what you teach on and the things you're trying to change, I mean, most people really love going to pointless meetings. They love the bureaucracy and they love not making decisions. Having a meeting about a meeting to finally have a decision made, those are the great things that we love within the corporate environments, and you're trying to do the complete opposite. You're trying to get rid of all these things, these safeguards, if you will, and these sacred things, almost, it seems like, especially in these big corporations. So, first of all, how are you going about creating these changes? And then I want to talk about actually how you go about delivering this message, because, whether it is organizational leadership, leadership in general or just trying to have a conversation and make a change, whether it's the whole company or an individual, how you speak to somebody is such an important thing. So I want to end up diving into that, but I would love to hear more from this organizational leadership side of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's funny that you say that there's a sign behind me that kind of captures everything, which is I tried to be innovative once but I got stuck in meetings. So it's this feeling of you really want to achieve something but you just can't because you're drowning in a swamp of inertia. In my book I also use the metaphor of swimming in peanut butter. It's like this feeling of everything is just sluggish and slow and it's just super, super slow and frustrating. And so we work a lot with leaders that are ambitious and they have a certain place they want to go, a certain place they want to get to, or a certain new strategy they want to roll out, or a new product launch they want to go, a certain place they want to get to, or a certain new strategy they want to roll out, or a new product launch they want to do. And they acknowledge that the way their organization functions is not helping them. So, to start with, that is teaching leaders and leadership teams how to work differently themselves. So it starts by modeling the behavior and doing the change yourself before forcing others to change, because that won't work right. Um, I found a quote in the research for my book which is like people uh, people follow your feet and not your lips, right? They pay attention to where you go, what you do, rather than what you talk about. You know, there's a lot of leaders out there, unfortunately, uh, that that just talk about, talk about, talk to talk, but don't walk to talk, right? So that's what we want to do.
Speaker 2:So we work with leadership teams to look at their work practices, meaning what is the area where this leadership team is blocked? It could be a mix of analysis, paralysis, trying to make perfect decisions, which underneath that is a fear of failure, and underneath that could be psychological safety or other things. And we teach them how to dig out of those holes by creating safe spaces for reflection and improvement and building that into the meeting cadences of the team, by teaching decision-making practices. That allows you to make complex decisions quickly without sacrificing quality and speed, and I can dive into what those things are, but it's really about modeling the behavior you want to see, and the moment you've kind of done that and you've discovered with your team what the benefits are, then you can start inspiring others to do it well as well, and that goes, that goes into the delivery and the and the messaging, like, if you, as a leader, can authentically say, like I've tried this and it really works for us, I would love to invite you to try this thing as well.
Speaker 2:I would love to invite you to um, you know, uh, take decisions um, um, faster, um, I really would like to invite you to decline more meetings or to to revisit your own, revisit your own goals and see if this framework can help you, because I've tried it and it works for me. That just creates more followers. Because it's authentic, it's because it's true, rather than the dynamic that we sometimes see, where leaders are almost coming from frustration and this parent-child dynamic, like I know what is good for you and you should change. That is a typical way of communicating in a hierarchical organization that creates resistance. So, yeah, it's all about getting that right.
Speaker 1:Oh man, yes, so true, and I've seen that I heard somebody talking about.
Speaker 1:They had a manager one time that the company had core values plastered on the wall and they were trying to talk about that and I don't remember the exact story or situation of why they brought up core values and the manager told them those are just words on the wall, that's what HR put up. But that's exactly what's happening, especially in these big companies, these old bureaucraticratic companies, is that they just have lip service. At the end of the day, they don't really believe in what it is that they're doing. Or there's changes that come because HR tells them that hey, we're going to make this change, and it really kind of becomes this flavor of a month thing. Really want something to change. Like you said, the leader has to start doing that, whether it's the actual title leader or somebody. They have to start doing that. And I like how you said you know, watch your shoes, not was your lips, or lips and not your lips because, yeah, the lip service, what we're saying and what we're doing are completely different things.
Speaker 1:And then you also mentioned about the results. Like hey, I've done this, this is what's happening, and I noticed in business, when I'm talking more about the results, or like, hey, here's what I'm doing, then somebody else is like, oh, they're going to believe that more because I'm doing that already. And it's like I'm telling you to do this, I'm coaching you to do this, but I'm also doing it. So it's not like, hey, you know, you should, you should go on a diet and start only eating chicken and rice. That'll help you lose weight.
Speaker 1:But then I'm over here going and getting a burger and a shake and all these things. Like well, like that doesn't match up. So when you match up, like what you're doing and what you're saying match up, then it's like, ok, I'm going to believe that and even if maybe it's not 100 percent right, but at least okay, I believe it, you actually are doing it. I'll start doing it as well. So I think it's an important thing for us as, as leaders and as individuals. If we want to start creating change, we need to start actually doing the work before we actually start talking about it is yeah, our actions speak a lot louder than our words ever will.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, exactly. And like, um, I'm always surprised that some executive teams are frustrated about the meeting culture and seeing that everybody's in meetings all day, like, and we don't, we're not productive enough. But then if you look at their calendars, they are going to be in meetings 120% of the time. Like, how do you, how do you model? How can you model what you want to see? Right, and it's really about looking yourself in the mirror.
Speaker 2:And there was one executive team that we worked with that completely um, got rid of that problem by by, you know, canceling all recurring meetings in their schedules. Like it was a whole, whole executive team of of eight people that were like we are not going to do any of those meetings anymore, at least for a month. It's an experiment that we're going to do. For four weeks, we're going to cancel all recurring meetings and, as an alternative of that, we will be here sitting at our desks and we are available every Monday. So if you just want to go and have a call, if you want to talk to us, just come to us and talk, but don't schedule a meeting, don't pull us into these recurring things. And that really, really helped them get out of that trap and they rebuilt some of the meetings that they really missed into their calendars.
Speaker 2:But the meeting load really went down by 70% and it just made it more easy, like at the moment. Leaders have more headspace to think about what's going on and to sit back and reflect. You know, every meeting is an opportunity to say well, you know what, I already trust you, you don't need me here, you know what to do. If you need any information, you can ask me, but but I, you can make the decision Like, I don't need to. It's a. It's also an opportunity to give someone else the decision, the right to make a decision explicitly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and that's such an important thing there to allow the other people to make that decision there and, depending on the leadership I think it's really the maturity of that leader they allow the autonomy of their people because they're typically, if you will the worker, be the one that's you can't make a decision. You need me to make that decision for you.
Speaker 2:So it's like here.
Speaker 1:let me put it on this little plate for you, tell you exactly what you need to know, so you can then say, yep, good to go, but that's all. So why do we need to do that? Let you be more strategic. Let you work on these other things rather than that and I've seen managers as well, or management teams, where, hey, we need to align, so I need you to present on what it is you're working on, a status update, whatever it is so we can go to this other management team that's in another department to talk and literally go over the same thing. But that way we're in alignment beforehand.
Speaker 1:And I get if you want to do like a one-on-one, but like, why do we need to have this continuously recurring thing where we literally present on the same thing twice, especially the person that's actually the one doing the work? Now we have to go to two meetings and then they're also going to two meetings, obviously to talk about the same thing. But now we just brought in a bigger group the second time. It is crazy. And how how big was that company that you you mentioned about? They reduced 70 of their meetings. I'm curious on that. How how large was that company overall?
Speaker 2:yeah, there were about 500 people. Okay, yeah, so it's not like it was 10 people no, it was you know it's a sizable company.
Speaker 1:It's also not 500,000.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, no but like, even even a 500,000 company is, it can be cut into groups of 500 or groups of 100. So so it's like, it's like you can. That's also a thing I encourage leaders to do. Like, yes, there might be things that you are dependent on in other departments and other executives that don't get it, but you can always transform how your team works or your department works within that bigger picture. If you are able to show the rest of the organization that your place is a great place to work and it delivers, people are engaged, people are highly autonomous and highly aligned, then you become an attractor and people are saying, well, take notice, like I've been, I've been helping departments like that and where, where.
Speaker 2:When people from other departments came over, they were like Hmm, this and people are so engaged here, like what's going on? Like there's something about the buzz in this room, there's something special here, and um, and then they were like I want that for my team as well, you know. Then then the change starts to grow. Um, so that goes back to modeling. Modeling it, trying it first before either being frustrated that others don't do it or trying to convince the rest of the world of something that's still just a theory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what have you found to be the most effective ways to get people to start trying to implement this change from your perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very broad question, but I think, yeah, I mean, it's all about. It's all about addressing real world problems. So often there's consultancies out there that that sell you a framework or a step-by-step plan or a recipe, that that you know that that they've buy proven solutions and frameworks with certifications, because the risk of buying something because other people are buying it too, so it must be good. But the reality is that organizational change is complex and what works for one company isn't guaranteed to work at another company, isn't guaranteed to work at another company. So you have to acknowledge that complexity and it's much better to look at lots of different options and just take whatever you think is useful for your challenge and put some boundaries around that.
Speaker 2:If you want to change how decisions are made, well, try it in one team, adopt a methodology that you've seen that you're inspired by. Try it for a few weeks, run an experiment, measure if it works. If it doesn't work, acknowledge that it didn't work and you adjust and you find something else. So it's really about building the capability to continuously find problems and improve them. It's all about the skill of working on the system as a leader rather than in the system. I sometimes use the metaphor of switching from being the traffic cop or the traffic controller on the intersection, directing all the traffic individually when the traffic lights are off, to becoming this road designer or an architect of how the organization functions, so that when the work happens, it naturally flows and it doesn't require you in every step. So it's teaching leaders how to be organization designers, basically, and getting them to see how things can be different and also to teach how they can be different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you kind of led into my next question there a little bit. I was going to ask, like how do you start to implement this and everything? And you mentioned about like kind of like one department and everything. Are there any like other tips?
Speaker 1:Because sometimes it comes to mind for me is maybe getting a couple advocates on your team, like people that you know, like whether it be like other senior management or other leadership to come in like, hey, I really want to try this thing, I need your help supporting this and really pushing this, so to speak, into the company to really make it happen. So it's not just you as the business owner, you as the top dog, so to speak. That's saying, hey, I want to start doing this. And then, yes, you mentioned about living it out, which I think is the most important thing. You've got to be living it out first and doing it. You can't just say, hey, do this, and then expect people to do it for at least not for too long. So do you recommend getting kind of advocates for this change as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's all about building a movement, and you build a movement by inviting people, not forcing people to join you. So that's again about leadership and followership. The best way to get started is like hey, we have this radical way of making decisions faster, we are willing to cut this bureaucratic process and we have some alternative ideas of how we can go faster. Is there anyone here who wants to try that? Is there a team or a group of people that are excited about that? And usually there's always maybe 10% of people that will raise their hand and say yes, of course, because they are just really open to innovating how they work and they are the front runners. They'll be in the front of stage and start there. So don't focus on the people who are resisting, don't focus on the majority. Don't immediately try to convince the majority of it, but just start running experiments with a group of enthusiastic teams and people that are willing to do it, and then, when you've proven with them that it actually works, then the movement can grow organically. You can invite more and more teams to do it. It's also all about acknowledging localized problems. So if you, for example, bring in a new decision-making framework, some teams don't have problems with decision-making, so don't force them to go through the workshop and learn about it. You know really only match that with teams that are struggling with that. So it's really about building the Lego pieces and the puzzle pieces and figuring out what matches and what doesn't.
Speaker 2:And then you know most of the time, transparency is a big part of these kinds of movements. In most new work, modern work practices, transparency is a big principle. These kinds of movements. In most new work, modern work practices, transparency is a big principle. So also be transparent about that. Like, take any moment when you have maybe an all-hands meeting to go on stage and say you know what this change is really important to me. I'm encouraging more people to do it now. I'm giving some stage time to some of the teams that have been pioneering this.
Speaker 2:Not everything went well. I'm just going to be transparent about everything that went wrong. I'm also going to be transparent about how hard it is for me as a leader, so that you create this safe space for people like oh, this is actually honest and this is real, rather than highly polished communication lines that go through the communication departments, right? So I see so many leaders addressing their own people as if they are on a public investor day. You know where, where, where every word is weighed and polished and changed and they're almost talking through a teleprompter. You know I can understand why you would do that in a public forum if you're a publicly listed company. But you know, in your own internal department you can be you, you can be real and that's you. And if you don't, if you're, if you're not, that people will notice immediately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah for sure, and so obviously as the companies get bigger, they're kind of more separated, different departments. From your experience, what departments do you feel like? I mean, if you could think maybe you probably don't have the actual data on this, but do you feel like give that most resistance to making these kind of organizational type changes? What have you found?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good one. It's funny that I don't have like I don't have quantitative research based on experience. But I've always been surprised by the fact that HR is often tasked with doing things on the organizational culture side but is often completely drowning in procedures, in legislation, in filling all the forms, making sure we tick all the boxes, getting out the salary checks, like all those things. Like hr is is a is a lot more operational than strategic. They're often not a um, a full partner at the c-suite table. Uh, there's almost like an operations department that uh that they run um so, so, and that means that hr in itself, the people that work there, like I'm a really positive way. I really believe that the people there are very people focused and want to do the best thing, but they're just completely stuck in these procedures. So it's a bit of a tragic story that HR often is not the first but the last to transform, and that's sad and that's sad.
Speaker 2:The places where people are willing to change are often on the edge of the organization, where there's something new, there's really a new innovation and there's just a really painful business case that the old way of working won't get you a positive result.
Speaker 2:So every time there's a like, it's almost like a crisis crisis management, like we work with a pharmaceutical company that we heard when they built the COVID vaccines. They were able to completely ignore all the old bureaucracy that they usually had when they have to bring out a new product. They could just get the experts in the room and go super fast and really clear the way for delivering them because of the urgency of the products that they needed to do. And the moment the COVID crisis was over, the pandemic was over, they actually slowly went back to old ways, but the people resisted. They were like no, I'm not going to go through this bureaucratic form because we have just proven that we can do without this thing, so can we just get rid of it instead? So yeah, it's often the places where there's either a shock to the system or a competitor that's doing something crazy and you really need to move fast, where there's more willingness to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I kind of laugh when you talk about the HR side, but it makes sense as the same tag. Yeah, and I kind of laugh when you talk about the HR side, but it makes sense as the same tag is like HR is the one quote, unquote, shoving this down everybody else's throat to make the change. But it's just like us in our business when we're stuck in the business, we know we need to be working on it, be more strategic and focus on doing these other things, but we're fighting fires and we're constantly in that. So we don't actually make that change, even though we know we should and we should be doing this other thing. And it's the same thing with HR.
Speaker 1:Like you said, they're very operational. There's so many other things going on and I think that's a lot of times why changes don't happen within companies, big or small, whatever you know, medium, whatever size they are because there's too many small fires that need to get taken out. Because there's too many small fires that need to get taken out and it's easy, just to focus on that versus going at 30,000 foot view and thinking more strategically.
Speaker 1:And okay, what do I need to start doing to be where I want to go, versus I'm here in this moment and I need to focus on this and finish this out and, you know, fix this. And that's unfortunately, I think, why HR just from my perspective as well why HR tends to be that last one. Not that they don't want to change, but they're more in the business rather than working. You know, working in it versus on it. And so they're trying to roll out this program. So it's again they're working in it, trying to make this program happen, but then there's nobody because that's it's supposed to be them. So it's kind of that self-development thing. I can give better advice on girls to my friend than I could for myself when I was dating. Same thing with HR. I can give advice better to those outside of the department than in the department, because now I have to reflect on myself and actually make that change myself.
Speaker 1:And so I can definitely see how again, I know you didn't have the quantifiable data, but I could definitely see where hr would be, the the last one kind of make the change or has the most resistance because they're stuck doing the work and in the business, so to speak, and that, but that's not unique to hr.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of departments out there that never evaluate. They never. They never evaluate is what we're doing, the right thing to do? Is it smart how we're, how we are working together and our work and our consulting work? And also in the new book I have a lot of advice on how do you build in reflection and improvement rhythms into your organizational way of working, because if you only you know it's the it's James Clear, I think had this famous graph If you go 1% better every day, at the end of the year you're 37 times better than you were without doing that right.
Speaker 2:It's like working smarter, not harder. But it's difficult to carve out the time, but we really encourage teams to, every four to six weeks, you know, put something on the calendar. It's a non-negotiable hour of sitting down and talking with each other about you know what, what is going really well for us, but also what, what can we improve and what should we improve and what are some improvements actions we can take for the next six weeks and this building in this rhythm of of improvement and and and getting stronger should allow. Should you know the ROI of that meeting should be very high if you build up the capability to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, completely agree there, and this has been a great conversation you're in. If people want to get to know you, we'll have all the links in the show notes. But where's like your favorite spot to hang out on social media or the best spot that people can really reach you at to get to know more about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm most active on LinkedIn, so just type in my name and you'll find me there.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, jurjen, thanks again for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it and this was just an awesome conversation to be able to talk about different things speaking leadership, organizational leadership, all that good stuff. But I appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it too.
Speaker 1:All right, everybody have a great one and y'all go out there and make that change by being the one to lead it first walking the walk and not just talking the talk. Yeah.
