Behind the Decision: Power, Control, and Clarity in Divorce Conversations

We dig beneath “the house,” “the money,” and “Wednesday” to reveal the real drivers of divorce conflict: power, fear, identity, and control. With Allison McFadden, we map skills that shift clients from positional fights to values-based choices they can live with.

• why surface conflict hides deeper fears and identity needs
• moving from positions to interests for better options
• invisible power dynamics in process, timing, and voice
• building perceived psychological power and steady presence
• fear, defensiveness, and how they close doors
• designing protocols and parenting tools to prevent repeat fights
• choosing language that de-escalates and humanizes
• avoiding professional missteps that entrench conflict
• redefining success as durable, client-owned agreements

If you're feeling that poll, whether you're an attorney, mediator, therapist, financial professional, or someone exploring the path to becoming a divorce coach, we have an upcoming certification beginning soon. So we've got a New Zealand cohort beginning in March, and we have both the United States and Canada cohorts beginning in April. These programs are intentionally designed not just to teach you the knowledge required to be a divorce coach within the dispute resolution field, but to give you the experiential hands-on training through mentorship and the practice required actually to be able to do the work because it's one thing to learn about it, it's another thing to do it. And information builds awareness, practice builds competence, and mentorship builds confidence. Our certification programs are grounded inside that ADR framework. And if you are a practicing divorce coach but trained somewhere else and you want to deepen your skill set or operate at a different level within the ADR community, our Elevate program was designed specifically for that purpose.

Learn more about DCA® or  any of the classes or events mentioned in this episode at the links below:

Website: www.divorcecoachesacademy.com
Instagram: @divorcecoachesacademy
LinkedIn: divorce-coaches-academy
Email: DCA@divorcecoachesacademy.com

Transcript

Welcome And The Real Issue Beneath Issues

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy Podcast. I am Tracy and I am so honored to have you here and your listening time. So if you work in divorce long enough as a divorce coach, mediator, or attorney, you start to notice something. The argument that's about the house is not about the house. The fight that's about the parenting schedule, it's not really about Wednesdays. That negotiation about money, it's rarely about the math. What we're really working with are the things underneath those decisions, those power shifts, fear, identity changes, grief, control, autonomy. I can go on and on. And if we miss the layer, we can spend months, months negotiating the wrong thing with our clients stuck in what we call surface conflict. So today I am super excited to be joined by a colleague whose work spans law, mediation, and divorce coaching in a way that gives her a unique lens on all of this. Allison, I'd like to welcome you.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Thank you. Thank you for having me here, Tracy.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Okay, so just I I have to I have to, you know, lift you up a little and just tell everybody your background. So Alison McFadden is a family law attorney, court-approved mediator, certified divorce coach, dedicated to helping families through transition. After a decade, a decade, in traditional firm practice in Maryland, she founded Divorce by Allison, which I love, to offer a resolution-focused alternative to litigation. Allison provides divorce coaching and mediation services nationwide and consulting attorney services specifically in Maryland. She is active in the Maryland State Bar and the American Bar Association's dispute resolution section, volunteers through her local courts, Family Law Self-Help Center, and was named Volunteer of the Year in 2025 for her contributions to the Mediation and Conflict Resolution Center of Howard County. Wow. Quite quite a CV there, Allison. Very, very busy. And you look like not a day over 22, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Yes. I've spent I've spent a while doing this work. And so I've gotten some different perspectives from the different, you know, arenas that I've worked in. And so I'm I'm happy to have this conversation with you today and get to share some of that background.

Why Practical Fights Mask Deeper Fears

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yay. So we're kind of focusing on this whole thing, right, behind the decision, power and control and its impact on decision making. So I'd love for us if we can sort of jump right into this. And from your perspective, why do you think so many divorce conversations become stuck around decisions that often to many of us seem quite practical on the surface? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Well, I think one of the phrases that you used in your intro, talking about the layers of those decisions, right? It might seem practical on the surface, but we don't see the the um bubbling up of years of tensions that that are coming to a head now as they're going through this this transition. And so we're seeing that surface tension, but there's often like a much bigger underlying issues. And so they are wondering, like you said, about losing their identity. Am I still gonna matter as a parent? You know, that Wednesday, it might just be a Wednesday to an attorney, but to that parent, that might be their basketball practice where they get to, you know, connect with to their child in a way that's really important to them or some other activity that really means something. Um, and that they feel like if they start missing out on that, that impacts their their value as being an involved parent.

Moving From Positions To Interests

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah. And and and we love to talk about sort of these entrenched conflict loops, right? And been really focusing on it and just did a podcast on it, I think the previous week on on these conflict loops. And and we're we talk a lot about, right, these these individuals, these parties to conflict have been engaged in this conflict dance or this entrenched cyclical pattern of conflict uh throughout their marriage. So they're sort of reacting this cycle over and over and over again. And when we look at the surface conflict, we're really sort of in in my perspective, what you just sort of dug beyond was that surface level conflict or that position, right? Where it's viewed by other people of it's just a Wednesday. But when we move past that position, you know, my favorite, I love me some William Yuri, and talking about principal negotiation, when we're able to move to those interests and understand the why behind the what, we get a little more information that I think is often missed, right? So I I I guess that sort of leads me to this next point of being more specific about, you know, what do you notice underneath about that conflict that professionals miss. And and it can be a lot of professionals. So I just don't, I'm not, we're not just, you know, banging on attorneys over here.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, what happens oftentimes is people end up being labeled, whether it's by their spouse or professionals or themselves, as you know, being too emotional or, you know, being too unreasonable without really digging into what's driving those emotions. Um, because I think you have to acknowledge that there's gonna be emotions going through divorce. Like if you just try and push them down and dismiss them, um, I think that's where a lot of the the trouble can can really come up down the line. Um, and where things you like you said, you end up realizing a month later we were negotiating the wrong issue. This isn't really what's what's happening here. So asking questions early on to try to drill down into why are we seeing this emotion coming out of a client? Why are they presenting as being unreasonable? Um, so that they feel, you know, asking those questions, making sure that they feel heard and that clients feel supported, um, so that they're able to open up to you and explain and give, um, go through some more analysis for themselves too, right? Of what's really making me self-reflection.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah. The doing the work that you know is is challenging work to have that self-reflection. We talk about self-reflection being a bitch for a reason. It's not easy, right? But but what I'm hearing is is being able to that professional to be able to be one, you know, when we talk about emotional aware uh intelligence, that awareness piece to not necessarily look at that client, because what I often see is there are professionals who start labeling clients difficult, unreasonable, right, reactive, and and all of those things certainly may be true, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Or they could become a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

Emotions Labeled As “Difficult” Clients

SPEAKER_00 8:16

You can be a hundred percent labeling someone that way, yeah, which then just creates barriers because they're we're not being curious enough to be able to then learn more about what is the underlying conflict or the underlying need and interest that is uh preventing that barrier, why they're being difficult or why they seem unreasonable and being able to effectively communicate that. So how we talk a lot about power in divorce, right? And and and it is a topic that comes up with every client I have. They often feel that somehow they're in a uh imbalanced power position. How do you see power dynamics showing up in divorce, right? In these divorce conversations. Sorry. I'm like choking on my own. I don't know why. Even when they're subtle, right? These power dynamics.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Yeah. I think when you say power dynamics, like a lot of people immediately kind of think of um like physical power or intimidation and think about um, you know, that kind of power dynamic without, like you said, digging into some of those more subtle um dynamics, things like having the power of information, who knows um not just about the financial information, but like who knows about the kids' schedule, who knows about um the professionals that are involved with the children. Um I think there's also process, uh, there's power related to the process. Some people may have more access to finances or the ability to put more into the process. Uh, some people may be able to control the timing of the process and delays. Um there there can be power in terms of the communication. You know, we tied I mentioned that kind of um most obvious one of a power dynamic relating to intimidation or physical power, but also how people are able to communicate if one person's more um able to be more articulate and and to convey their position more confidently. Um, and so depending on what role you're in, you know, if you're working with clients in a coaching role, helping them recognize some of these areas where they may have power that they um haven't really leaned into before, and also recognizing where they may need, you know, some assistance to be able to show up um in in the way that they want to.

Power Dynamics You Can’t See At First

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah, I love that. You know, I'd I'm fascinated by conflict, obviously, as a dispute resolution specialist. I'm I'm kind of obsessed by it and I watched, I watch conflict alike. So in my spare time, I watch Bravo, which is the big joke. So I just like to watch housewives argue. Um the this idea, right, in conflict theory, there's often these three sources of conflict financial value and power. And in in divorce, right, it it's like a perfect, perfect melting pot of those three different sources of conflict. And then being able to sort of identify how that power plays, because power is also, and I loved that you talked about this, even though it shows up if a a party to conflict may feel that they're unable or not as confident in communicating as the other party, which we hear this all the time, right? When going into mediation, uh, I have clients as a mediator will say, Well, you know, he's just such a better, you know, people listen to him, right? He he he has the ability to sway, right, to sway, which then is perceived as that's gonna have this influence over the mediator, therefore creating an unfound unbalanced, unfair situation for themselves. But one of the things that I love to talk about in skill and strategy with clients is this idea of perceived psychological power. Because even in power and balances, if a client can strategically develop skills, they can show up in some of these processes where they're exerting uh this ideology uh of strength, even though it may not be inherently organic for them, that they can engage in that process. I talk a lot about Beyoncé. Um, I know what does Beyoncé have to do with perceived psychological power? You might have heard me talk about this and in our pre-mediation divorce coach training, but Beyonce does not, she is not an extrovert, she is not by nature, she's very in an introvert. So when she goes out and performs, which is very intimidating, scary, and fearful, she channels this alternate persona, if you will, Sasha Fierce, right? So Beyoncé becomes Sasha Fierce. So I think the first that first step is being able to understand how those power dynamics are showing up. So in your experience uh across legal mediation, divorce coaching, I mean, you've seen the whole continuum, right? Uh of various processes. How do you see sort of that fear or loss of control influence communication and negotiation, having this very unique perspective to be able to see it through three different sorts of windows, if you will, even though we might be looking at the same backyard?

Perceived Psychological Power And Voice

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yeah. I think, you know, if I had to like kind of visualize it, it's the idea of like a door being shut, being very closed off. Um, you know, when you're coming from a place of operating out of fear, or um you you're you're on the defensive. So you're not open to exploring other uh other options. And I think that the idea of being closed off comes across whether you're in mediation and parties don't want to be in the same room together, right? They want to be in separate rooms because they are concerned about even sharing basic information. Um, you can see it in coaching when clients have kind of dug in to one uh one outcome that they are intent on, you know, that has to be the outcome. That's the only way things are gonna be okay. Um and and in that in the legal consulting role too, when you're working with clients as an attorney where they um they aren't willing to consider different options um that might relate to negotiating the idea that I'm gonna have to give things up, um, that there's going to uh that I need to kind of stand strong in my position because I don't want to be seen as weak. Um as opposed to you know coming from counterproductive often, yeah. Yeah, yeah, coming from a place where um you're open to different ideas where you're coming in from a problem-solving mindset um of trying to come to a resolution. Um I think really I think about that idea of just being kind of closed off. You have your armor up, um, and when you're in that closed off space, you're trying to protect yourself, but you're also closing off, you know, all of these opportunities to uh to figure out a resolution and kind of dig to what's everybody's needs, what are different ways to meet them, the ability to get creative um and really like expand the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, I think it's such an important piece that you talked about is this immediate sort of defensive position, right? Often people come in as I have to defend myself, even from right, the legal perspective, I need a protector or an advocate to defend me, quote unquote. You know, in mediation, I have to defend my position also, right? And and in coaching, I have to now defend how I believe and think about this position, right? So when we look from this starting place of defense, it it really, really creates uh, I know I use the word barrier a lot, but it's almost like this blockage, yeah, right. When we're able to sort of help clients shift that perspective of not defending, participating, right? Looking for uh uh opportunity and solution and and creating sort of that brainstorming position, it gets stinted when it's from defense. So being able to sort of shift that I I see is a huge piece in that communication and negotiation. So, you know, the we often talk about right the these differences between healthy influence and unproductive control dynamics, right? And I just gave an example of this and perceived psychological power. But how do you see the difference, right, in terms of our clients and their ability to develop skills to be able to engage in some of these processes? Where's that balance of healthy influence versus unproductive control dynamics?

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah, I think you know, when we're talking about an unproductive control dynamic, there's a lot of pressure. Um, there's ultimatums, there's certain time frames or timelines that that are just arbitrarily set that need to be met. Um there's not necessarily providing information, withholding information, trying to be strategic in that in that way, versus um having a, I guess when I think of a healthy influence, it's somebody who is helping you think through uh different issues in a way that encourages you to explore different options, um, might provide you with certain guidance towards options that might be um aligned with your needs or your goals, but being there in a role where you're really just supporting the decision making and allowing the other person to maintain their autonomy. And I think in divorce, you mentioned the idea of an attorney being like the the the protector. Um and I think sometimes people, when they're in a situation, they just want somebody else to make the decision for them. Um and so that line between I'm going to make that decision versus I'm going to support you in the process of making that decision. Um, I guess is kind of how I differentiate somewhat the two.

Fear, Armor, And Closed Doors

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah. And and I I think the interesting part is how that effectively gets communicated, right? Even from the beginning with potential clients coming into this process in terms of, and I think that's so much of why clients get frustrated with their attorneys, is they in themselves don't necessarily or what they perceive or understand the role to be of the attorney is actually not quite that at all. And and it could be another source of conflict, right? So when we talk about uh all of these decisions, right? Divorce has these massive decisions, high-stake decisions. And this decision conflict is really about the decision itself. Right. And I I like to say divorce has a conflict problem, and the conflict problem is often grounded not about the decisions that have to be made by something else, right? So this decision to engage in conflict and its impact on the actual decision itself gets so entrenched with one another. Yeah. And and I it it it's fascinating because we we we kind of overstep it a lot and don't really help clients differentiate the two. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yeah. I think you know, we've talked a little bit about the idea of positions and going deeper than that and seeing what the real concern or fear that's that's driving that position. Um, because once you have an idea of what that concern or the fear is, you can start um looking at things with a wider lens of what can, what are the possibilities of what can not solve, I don't want to solve the issue, but what can what can be done to address it? Um I think also the we talked a little bit about the idea that you get stuck in these patterns of disagreement. And so I think sometimes, you know, the decision, you know, it might be uh uh something silly that comes up, but because it's a last minute decision about, you know, there's a two-hour delay, who's gonna take the kids this morning. So that's not necessarily silly, but like if you don't have a process of how you're going to decide that and it's a last minute decision, the likelihood is that you're gonna fall into one of those old communication patterns, right? Versus the idea that we're going to set up a structure to try to work through some of those um potential conflicts ahead of time, you know, having a process of how some of these issues are gonna be resolved. And you can't predict everything, but you can come up with communication protocols to try and help deal with some of these issues before it gets to the conflict itself, right? So I think a little bit of like proactively trying to figure out how to nip some of these things in a bud, um, whether it's part of a parenting plan, whether it's part of like a communication protocol using parenting apps, you know, there's a lot of different options out there, I think, for uh dealing with those communication issues.

Healthy Influence Versus Control

SPEAKER_00 22:40

One of the things that I love so much about the work that we do as divorce coaches is we have opportunities to explore this, to be curious, to support this exploration process or self-discovery process in terms of how that thinking and feeling is impacting behavior, right? And and when there isn't a plan or a skill, we revert back to what we know, which are these old entrenched patterns that reinforce narrative over and over again because I can use it to then confirm my bias towards you. See, see, nothing's changed. You're the same person that you've always been, Allison, self-centered and difficult, right? So, so, so our one of our jobs that we do is being able to engage in that discovery process and and divorce coaching to help clients explore, right, the the interest, the the moving past the position to the interest, and and how does that align with this sort of values-based decision-making process? The challenge is it's hard. Yeah. And I'm not if it was easy, we'd we would be out of a job. I mean, we would not have a job. Yeah.

unknown 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's challenging and it takes patience and respect and rapport to be able to support that. Is there anything that you uh find effective and helping shift clients or or kind of expand, if you will, and from that positional arguing to a values-based conversation?

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yeah, I think I think a lot of it starts with some of the reflecting that that self-reflection that we talked about earlier, um, and kind of starting internally versus necessarily starting by looking at the argument or the other person, right? But getting clear in terms of what our values are, um, in terms of what we see as our strengths, and also what are some of the things that maybe we want to work on in regards to how we're going to communicate. You know, it's it's hard to to do that self-reflection, but to be able to recognize that certain things, certain triggers cause you to be reactive and to be able to create come up um to practice skills, right, with with your coach of how you're going to handle those situations so that you can go to you can you can go to responding in a way that um that you feel good about and that's uh productive towards meeting your goals. Um, you know, that's that's the value in doing the work and what we're really trying to to get to, but it takes work, it takes practicing, um, it takes the self-reflection. Um and uh I think also people the idea that this isn't a one and done, but that this is gonna take time, that you are gonna need to like progress is is not gonna happen immediately. It's not something where you're gonna wake up one day and just be able to let everything roll off your back and not respond. Like, so giving yourself a little bit of grace while also being willing to reflect and say, what could have I done differently? What do I want to do differently next time?

Decision Conflict Versus The Decision

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Um and and I think that's uh you know, such an important piece of it. One of the things that I love to work with my clients on and and support divorce coaches and and recognizing is sometimes we can look towards desired outcome, right? And and map it backwards. So what is it that you're trying to accomplish? Right? What's the goal here? And then uh a little in terms of understanding the intention, what's behind that goal? Tell me why that goal is important, what does that goal mean? And then actually strategically work it backwards because we can map it. So if I was to do this, this, this, and this, does that get me close to that desired outcome? Well, what about if I did this, this, and this? Does that get me closer? And it it because often we lose sight and then it it becomes about winning, right? Winning the argument, winning the the negotiation, whatever, which then we're entrenched back into these power dynamics, right? Because for me to win, I have to exert power over you. You need to lose. Right. And when we're constantly in this space, so so keeping sort of an eye on, okay, well, if that's where I want to go, that's what it looks like. How am I gonna do it and what am I willing to do? Because that's that future focus moment that sort of helps. I agree, it doesn't miraculously go away. You're not gonna miraculously one day forget all of the reasons why this person made your life difficult or made you unhappy or or stood in the way of you accomplishing whatever. And right, so now how is that gonna play out moving forward for me? Because it really, really doesn't play that much of a role anymore once the client sort of identifies and makes a decision to want to do it differently.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah. And the that reframing that you mentioned of the focusing on the future and focusing on the long-term future, what is this gonna look like um down the line? And like you mentioned, like mapping it out backwards, right? So that they have an understanding of what they need to do to get there. I think also sometimes clients can be scared to move forward or to take action because of all the kind of what ifs that are that are stopping them. And so sometimes mapping out those what ifs, right? Because if you think through those possible outcomes and you think through, well, what would I do if that did happen? It can help make you feel more prepared, right? We don't want to go down rabbit holes and start catastrophizing, right? But there's a middle ground of thinking about, well, what could reasonably, what could I reasonably expect to happen if I did this? And it what are those outcomes? And kind of um having an idea that I think that helps to give you a feeling in a positive way of having control over the situation when things can feel so up in the air. There's so many variables um that go into everything, it can feel really overwhelming.

Structures, Protocols, And Parenting Apps

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Yeah, and and I think that power, if you will, in control, there are things that we can control. Our clients can control. There's a lot of things they can't, right? They can't control the court system, they can't control their other uh party to the conflict, their co-parent, they're soon to be ex, blah, blah, blah. But what can they can control? And and when it's framed in that process of there are areas of agency, autonomy, uh, self-actualization that I can influence is hugely important. I want to uh shift a little, right? So where do you see professionals unintentionally re-reinforcing conflict, right? And and how can we avoid that? I see it all the time. Yeah I I I'm zoned in on it quite uh quite precisely, but where do you where do you see that? Where do you see professionals unintentionally reinforcing conflict?

SPEAKER_01 30:21

I think sometimes professionals don't um realize how much clients might grab on to something that they say, right? So if you tell a client early on, if you're setting unrealistic expectations with a client, if you are just aligning with a client, agreeing with everything that they're saying, right? Um, just to make them feel good, right? Uh that doesn't help in the long run because what you're doing is you are helping to instead of um helping them see the different possibilities and to approach the different solutions and problem solving, you're having them lock in to only having one outcome, one option, that all or nothing approach that I think really can escalate um the conflict and prevent opportunities for resolution. Um, I think also language plays a lot into it. And this is something where I think some of it is intentional, some of it's unintentional, some of it's just the words we've always used, right? And so it's like a lot of retraining of mindfulness, yeah. Yeah, and and just because you know we've always called it um, you know, custody, there's no reason that we can't call it an access schedule or a parenting plan, um, and use terms that feel more like they're deeper de-escalating conflict, more humanizing, right? As opposed to like the adversarial type positioning.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Absolutely. I think language is such a key component of that, and I love that you're recognizing it. I see it all the time when people be like, Well, you're axe or you're soon to be ax. When we shift to say co-parent, right? It carries an entirely different connotation.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Yeah, you're on the same team still. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah, yeah. So I love that, that reframing. So great, great piece of advice for professionals. Um, so so as we wrap this up, if you would like our listeners to take one thing away from our conversation and put it into their practice as we're working with clients and these, you know, understanding all that's involved behind these decisions when it's about the house, but not really about the house, about the time sharing schedule, but not really about the time sharing schedule. What would you like that to be?

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Um, I think remembering that we don't want to rush clients to getting to a decision just to get them to sign off on an agreement, right? Our job isn't our success, isn't necessarily measured by just how many people are signing off on an agreement. Um but really thinking about our role is helping them come to decisions, make decisions, come to agreements that they can live with long after the divorce process is over, off into the future, you know, as their families are living their lives, um having it be focused on that. Um we're not making the decisions for them. We're trying to help clients get into the best position to make decisions for themselves. So providing them with support and guidance uh to get there.

Values-Based Choices And Self-Reflection

SPEAKER_00 33:41

I love that. I love that. It is our work is not about yes, yes, to get legally divorced, you need to reach a resolution, right? Whether in mediation, on your own, through litigation, and so judge ordered. But our work is so much deeper, and that work is where we're at. And and and being where the client is, I think timing is really important. And and I understand there are time constraints that our clients may not be able to control, but doing that work to really be able to take some time and and looking at success differently. So, Alison, I want to thank you so much for your thoughts and leadership in this field. It is an absolute pleasure having you here and hope you will return again soon.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yes. Thank you for having me, Tracy. This was great.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Thanks. And before we close, I want to speak directly to those of you listening who are thinking this is the work I want to be doing. If you're feeling that poll, whether you're an attorney, mediator, therapist, financial professional, or someone exploring the path to becoming a divorce coach, we have an upcoming certification beginning soon. So we've got a New Zealand cohort beginning in March, and we have both the United States and Canada uh cohorts beginning in April. These programs are intentionally designed not just to teach you the knowledge required to be a divorce coach within the dispute resolution field, but to give you the experiential hands-on training through mentorship and the practice required actually to be able to do the work because it's one thing to learn about it, it's another thing to do it. And and information builds awareness, practice builds competence, and mentorship builds confidence. So our certification programs are grounded inside that ADR framework. Um so you're not you're not working on the sidelines, you're part of the fields with other mediators and attorneys within this family law system, Allison, who who plays a role in all of those, all of those fields. Um, and if you are a practicing divorce coach but trained somewhere else and you want to deepen your skill set uh or operate at a different level within the ADR community, our Elevate program was designed specifically for that purpose. So whether you are on your personal journey, there is room to go. If you're just listening, we're so happy to have you here. These conversations help elevate our fields and ultimately serve our clients and their families better. Okay. And remember everyone, it's rarely about the Wednesday. We'll see you next time.