Conversation With An Aspiring Homicide Detective

Chris talks with police officer Megan Bortner.  Megan has three years on the force. Just like Chris, she's known since she was a little kid that she wanted to be a police officer and a homicide detective.  Megan reached out to Chris for advice and we recorded the conversation so our listeners could learn from it too. 

Transcript

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People just want to know what it's like to be me. How does it feel to see a dead body? Tell a family their loved one has been murdered, talk to a rape victim, catch a killer, and get them to confess. Hold on tight, my friends. Get ready for the journey. And welcome to murder with mannina. Hello, everyone and welcome to another edition of murder with mannina. We appreciate everyone listening and everyone reaching out and sending us cases to look at. I could do this as a full time job Colleen. Well, that would be wonderful wouldn't it? There are so many people to talk to and so many answers to find. Yeah, fine. So anyways, but today, I have a special guest on and her name is Megan. And she is a young officer from Elkhart Police Department in Indiana, which is about two hours north of Indianapolis. So she is our guest to kind of talk a lot about why she wanted to be a police officer where she is in her career. And then we'll get to the part where she reached out to me and now we've kind of developed a friendship and we'll go from there. So Megan, thanks for being on. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Absolutely. So I'm just going to start at the beginning. How long have you been a police officer? In December this year? It'll be four years. So I'm brand new still? Well, that's funny that you say that because I know that until yet five years on you were called a rookie. Which kind of sucks. Yeah, I was actually thinking about that. When I was thinking of questions I asked you today I was like, Yeah, somebody told me at my first apartment that you're still considered a rookie until you have six years on so? Well. In the end. It's only five mins I can remember. But I think it varies based on the officer. So don't press the ones that have been on 100 years. You're a rookie until you're have 20 or something. So anyways, okay, so when did you realize you wanted to be a police officer? I realized I wanted to be a police officer, probably when I was like four or five years old. I remember in kindergarten, though, seems like forever ago, we had to draw pictures of what we wanted to be when we grew up. And I drew a picture of myself as a patrol officer, and I still have it framed up in my I have framed up in my house. So oh my gosh, I'd love to see a picture of that. Yeah. Oh, it's interesting. But yeah, that's adorable. That's fantastic. What made you want to do it? Was there anybody in your family? Like when had you seen a police officer before kindergarten? Honestly, I am the first person to be a police officer. My family. I think my grandfather. He was a maybe a Chicago police officer for a short period of time. He didn't do it very long. And I didn't know he was a police officer until maybe a couple of years ago. So um, I guess growing up, I don't know what I just knew. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't really have anybody in my family. I didn't have like family friends or anything like that. It was just, you know, just something that was in me that I knew. That's what I wanted. So, yeah, that's cool. I didn't have anybody in my family either. But our house got broken into and when the cops arrived, I'm like, Oh my God, I want to do that. That's kind of funny how that happens. So. Okay, so you come from a fairly small town right in Indiana. Yeah. And where was the first place that you were hired on? I first started off in 2019. With Warsaw Police Department. It's in kasi Pasco County. It's about. It's about a 45 minute drive, I think from where I'm at now. So yeah, it's tiny compared to where I'm at now in Elkhart. Yeah. All right. So how many people were on how many officers were on the Warsaw Police Department? When I started there, I'm not sure where they're at now at Warsaw. But when I started, I think we've maybe only had like 28 officers all together. And how many of them were women? When I started there was one other female and then towards the end, before I left, there was another female that started so there was a total of three. Okay, and how was that experience? Because I, I started in Bremen, Indiana, and I was the first one in the town and the first one in the county. And it was not fun. But how was your experience? It wasn't so it was funny because I could tell the guys tried really hard not to treat me any differently. And I know they mean well. But I think you know, everybody that's a police officer is a type A personality. And I think working with guys, they just think that, you know, they can still handle things a lot better than females can and I know they tried really hard not coming across that way. So it was rough. But I think especially the beginning because I mean you have to learn how to like assert yourself Be, it's hard if you've never had to do that before. It's hard, and especially with people that you work with, you kind of have to be like, Hey, I got this. I just need you to help me out, you know. But I mean, for the most part, it wasn't terrible at all working with a bunch of guys and being with just some with a few other females. So good. I'm glad that experience was good for you. It was not fun for me. We didn't have anything to do like, but it was so boring. Yeah, we didn't have anything to do. Alright, so how long were you at Warsaw? I was at Warsaw for three and a half years. Okay, and then you then you decided to go to Elkhart? How many people on the elkaar Police Department? I know we have at least maybe a little over 100 officers. So it's a big difference compared to where I came from. Yeah, absolutely. almost triple. Okay. And you're in the street right now. Right? Right. Okay, so, how do you like that you like to stray off the street when I work the street. Um, I like it. I work nights right now. And weekends, especially during the summers. It's crazy. Like, we've been busy constantly since it's been warmer out. But during the winter months, it's it's rough. Because you know, nobody wants to be outside, during when it's like snowing out and it's below zero. And you know, you just have to try to really find things to do. I don't know, I like it a lot. It's teaching me to like, really how to talk to people and interact with people, I think before becoming a police officer. I didn't I didn't really know how to talk to people. And I didn't really like go out of my way to try to like talk to people before I and it's forcing me to go get out of that bubble. And like, I don't know, I feel like I can easily start small conversations with people before. I think when I started, I would just stand there and be like, Hi. about it. So it's hard to get information with just Hi. Yeah. You call 911. What do you need? Hi. Hi, I'm here. Hi. So you've gotten into you've gotten into stuff. Have you had your first vehicle pursuit? Yes, I've, um, Warsaw not so much. elkaar? Yes. Actually, I lived in Warsaw my first vehicle pursuit was a welfare check at a gas station, I guess it was a car that was sitting at a gas station for like hours. And at Warsaw, I worked nights as well. And the gas station attendant said there was this car that was sitting in front of there in front of the front doors there for just hours. And it looked like the guy in the front seat was just laid back. And he didn't know if the person like overdosed or was passed out. But he just let him sit there for hours until he decided to call us. And so I go there, parked behind the car, get out and I went to the passenger side to see what was going on. And I can see the guy in the driver's seat laid all the way back, his head turned and look through the back window. He shot up so fast. And he took off and it took me a sec because it was my first pursue. And it took me two seconds like he just left. And so I was like, Oh my gosh, and I called it out and I was terrible at calling out where I was at because like, it was a huge adrenaline dump. Like I was like I felt it felt great. And then at the same time, like I had to like talk on the radio say where I was going. We ended up losing him. He was in a really fast like sports car type thing. And we ended up catching him maybe a few days later. I remember he was he had warrants for like drugs. And I think he had he was a convicted felon maybe and he had possession of handguns on him. So he was doing things he was supposed to be doing. So that's a great story. Because that's happened to everybody. It's like it's like you're doing it you know, you're you're responding to the call, you get now you're got the shit together. And then you're like, that's just kind of getting it in your head and then trying to go back to your training of oh, now, like you describe this huge adrenaline jump, we would call that you got your cherry popped. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. How fast do you think you went? And how long did it last? Well, we were easily I think it maybe 100. And at some points a little over 100 miles because he decided to take like back roads. Yeah. And so it was obviously I'm back roads, it's a lot easier just to take off. And it wasn't very it felt like a long time, but it was probably five or six minutes. And that was it. And so but it felt like I was chasing him for about 20 minutes. And then when I looked at the end of the call, I was like wow, that was like only five minutes. Five minutes of your life. Right? It's crazy but super fun, right? Oh Yeah, most definitely. It's one of the funnest things. Like I've said before, one of the funnest, but one of the most unbelievably dangerous things that we do as police officer then of course, walking up the cars. Oh, yeah, people are taking naps or passed out or whatever. So interesting. Have you had one at Elkhart yet? Oh, I've had a bunch of saw a lot. Is it is it a little bit quicker, where they're like, they're leaving, and you're like, Oh, they're leaving. I've noticed with them, like, if they're gonna take off, they don't even they don't even wait for you to like, get out of your car. Like, that's been my experience so far. Like, I haven't even had the chance to like get on my car and like, go up to them and see what's going on. Like, they see my lights. And then they slow down like they're gonna pull over, but they're like, Nah, and then they just take off, and then it's on from there. So I've had Yeah, a lot of my pursuits at the new departments been like that, or it's been mopeds. So. Don't tell me you catch them. Please tell me you catch them. Oh, yeah. moped Yeah. So even if you even if you have like, like, What a poor strategy, you would think they would wait for you to get out of your car, be walking up to your car, and then take off, and then they have a big advantage. Well, and we're so close to Michigan, too. So a lot of them just like take off into Michigan. So I haven't had the opportunity to go all the way into Michigan yet. But a lot of the guys said that, you know, when they go up there, they're like, We have no idea where we're at. So it's just the slide because we're in a completely different state now. So yeah. And now we're in Canada. So that's, that's fantastic. I love that. Yeah, just be careful. Because definitely be careful. It's a it's a crazy, but it's such a fun ride. It is such a fun ride. And so now there is the adrenaline dump as good as the first time i i think my adrenaline like it's funny. Like, I think since I've been doing this a little longer now like my I get like adrenaline dumps on like different things. Now, it's not just like the typical like, Oh, he's running now or, you know, the car took off. It's just like, it's other things like you get a really good call. And you get to like, oh, just dig into things and like figure things out. Or like if you catch the person and like, solve it. It's not just like, it wasn't like a very straightforward case that got handed to you. And you like actually solved it. Like, I don't know, I had I had a call the other day. That was a it was a rake that came out. And I had to stay over and I figured out where the guy left and where he was where he ended up going. And I found him. And it took me a minute, but he ended up like telling me everything that happened. And like I remember leaving, and I was super tired. But I was like, Wow, this feels great. Like I felt like awake. And it was just like, I don't know, I think the adrenaline dump is still there. But be doing this and doing it longer. And the more I do it, it's like the adrenaline comes from different things. Now I feel like Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And that will happen throughout your career. Like you'll get into a vehicle for say 10 or 12 years in and you won't even tell anybody. Where before was like, Oh my God, you tell everybody that even cares or even thinks that you might care. I just chased this guy for 120 miles. It and then and then and then you'll get to the point where you're like, he's running in the car and you're like, is do I really want to do that? And then you're like, No, I'm gonna look the other way. It's so crazy. It's just like different little things that go on in your career that, but I love that you get intrigued and get adrenaline dumps for other things. So I'm going to segue this into she contacted me, but ultimately you want to be a homicide detectives that right? Okay, and why, again, has something I know that I've always wanted to do. i It's funny, because I went to college for a little bit. And I think when I hit my like late teens, early 20s I knew I have always wanted to be an officer, but my parents were not really for it. I think it was like a they're scared that. You know, they just didn't want anything to happen to me. But it's something that I've always wanted to do. They wanted me to get into nursing school. And I was like, Nah, I got my degree in mortuary science instead because I knew I wanted to deal with I wanted to deal with dead body. I wanted to like I wanted to figure out what happened and obviously murders is the worst thing that could anyone can ever do to anybody and I just I I want to be a part of that and I want to you know, help solve and come get closure and catch the bad guys because people that obviously do things like that don't need to be on the street. So All right, so have you attended an autopsy yet? Almost. But I guess it was in Warsaw, we had a call that came in our neighbors didn't see their neighbor in the apartment building for like several days. And he was dead for like a week. And when the coroner arrived, he thought something happened to like the back of his head where it looked like somebody may have like, hit him to cause him to die. And it turned out, it was it was medical related. And nobody just, yeah, so they told us the detective that was working the case. I said, hey, when you go to the autopsy, I want to go, it's like, you know, of course. And then he sends me a text. And you're like, Yeah, you don't need to come. So I was like, All right. Yeah, right. Well, that'll be a good experience for you. So, Colleen, I'll let you take it from from now you can talk? Yes. I'm wondering, Megan, how did you know about Chris? How did you find out about her? I feel like such a fan girl. Ah, the shipped. So when I first got Netflix, the shift was on Netflix at the time. And that was the first show I ever watched on Netflix. And I think I binged everything, like within the day. Oh, wow. And I absolutely like, I don't know, I, I thought Chris was an amazing detective. And I was like, I feel like that's who that's how I want to be. That's what I want to do. So I and I never forgot about her. I've never forgot about the shift. I actually just bought the shift again on Amazon Prime just to re watch it again. So and then I found her on Instagram. And I found out you had a podcast. And I was like, Well, I'm gonna take my chances and reach out. I mean, see if anything happens. So I have watched a lot of true crime series. And the shift is still my favorite also took place in Indianapolis. And I live in Indiana. So I was like, This is awesome. So yeah, well, I just want to go back to it was on Netflix. And I didn't make Deke on. And I made it all the way to Netflix. Well, you and most other reality stars, by the way, you're not alone. You're in good company. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I know. So she reached out to me. And we had a short discussion. And you know, it's so funny, because I remember when I wanted to be a homicide detective, I'll never forget this. There was a detective in homicide, and we went to dinner, and he just really kind of told me what it would be like, and he, you know, he didn't, he didn't paint a pretty picture. Because at that time, there was only one other woman, I think up there. And, you know, he talked about how long the hours it would be, what kind of family support do you have, it's a really high pressured job. Because you know, you need to solve them. And what that means is you need to, like really, really be vested, it becomes your life for a short time, when you're in that, you know, I did it for about nine years, and it was my life, and I paid the price. You know, in my personal life, but it still doesn't didn't outweigh all of the closure, or at least some answers that I was able to give to the families that I became invested in and still hear from today. So anyways, when I when anybody ever reaches out, especially with aspirations to be the police or to be especially a homicide detective, I will always lend an ear and lend a hand who and, and I always just anytime I can preach that most officers are good, and they're out there to do it for the right reasons. So, you know, any, any way I can help? I always try to do that. So, um, I know, you said that you I read something that you grew up in Indianapolis, and I'm assuming that's why you work for the Indianapolis police department. But why but besides living there, why did you pick that department? i Well, mainly it was because that's where I was from and my family was here. But secondly, well, let me let me rewind what I when I got out of college I applied everywhere. I knew ultimately I wanted to be an Indianapolis but like you know, and anybody that's applied for the police department is it's a long process it takes close to a year from the minute you start your application to the minute you get hired and I don't know who told me but somebody just said you know what, apply everywhere and so I applied everywhere. And I don't know that indeed was actually hiring at that time. So I applied everywhere and I landed in a in a really small town but I knew I wanted to get back home and Indianapolis in these larger police departments allow you to have a more colorful career and you know, any type of detective that you want to be. You can be I mean, we've everything sex crimes, undercover. I mean, anything that you can think of we probably have and then to be a homicide detective like you I knew early on that I wanted to do that I wanted to be unfortunately in a city where that happens, right. And for a couple of reasons, I like to stay busy. I do like the adrenaline. But to get the experience, I didn't want to get a homicide for the first time, investigate it and then have to go a few months until I got another one. I wanted to be really, really good at it. Unfortunately, to be really, really good at something, you need to do it a lot. And so you need to be in a city where unfortunately, it happens a lot. So that's kind of Yeah, family in the frequency of being educated on what it would be like to be a detective. That's why I chose indie. Do you ever wish that you worked for a different department? You know what? No, I No, not really. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's a major metropolitan city with major metropolitan problems. But then it's got a nice mix, where you can go out to the suburbs, and it can be a little bit quieter, I think nd, you know, is is a big enough city, where it was always important. And that's what I like, when I worked on the street. Wherever I work on the street, I was able to develop relationships and just mean, hi, when you drive through, I mean, like, hi, I know your name, I know where you were, I know, if this car looks funky, and it shouldn't be in your in front of your house like that still gave me a kind of a small town, because I kind of learned that a little bit in Bremen be in such a small town. It was annoying. I didn't know what I was learning when I was there that I was actually learning it. But everybody's in your business, and everybody knows everything about you. But when something's off, people tell like because that doesn't look right. And so there's that and I kind of wanted to bring that mentality as much as I could, to wherever I policed. So, you know, worked out. So now I don't have any regrets within d, it was good to me, you know, it's got its issues like everybody else. But overall, I have to say that I was really, really lucky and blessed. Hope. I know, being a woman in law enforcement is difficult. And how did you I'm sure you've had times, like you said, how did you deal with it? Well, I think it's hard. Like we're human beings, and it's hard not to take things personal. And I, I would take things personal, you know, when I got up into homicide, because I wanted to do a good job. And I thought the way to get the naysayers to stop, you know, talking about you, or is just to go in and do my job and do it really well. Like, and so if they want to bitch, you know, and I didn't know at the time, that way, if you go in, and you do your job really, really well, you don't make friends that way, either. So you just kind of have to like success. And you know, a lot of people talk about this, you, you know, successful people, you know, don't make friends. And you don't it was such a high stress job. But you know, and so I worked really, really hard. And I just kind of put them in the background, if you didn't support me, you know, and I had great partners when I was in homicide, great partners, I mean, my first partner, well, most of my partners were absolutely wonderful. But you're always going to have the people in the background and you just go in there and you do your job. And it didn't take long like I say this, you're never going to solve a murder sitting at your desk ever. So when it started to get a little bit weird in the office, I just left and I hit the ground. And that's how I hit. That's the cases. I didn't worry about my I didn't worry about my co workers, I worried about the area of where my homicide occurred, and how am I going to get it solved. So it's hard. I mean, you know, we're all human, and we want everybody to like us. But I'll tell you, when you're able to go to a house and knock on the door, either be 2448 72 hours or a month later and say, You know what, I know that the day that your son or daughter was murdered was the worst day but to be able to come back later, and bring them the news of we've made the arrest takes away every naysayer that I've ever had. Um, so what was the first, when you first started in your career? Was there like a specific moment? Like, I don't know, let it be on patrol or when you were a detective that you knew that you were doing the right career for yourself? You know what, I had it really early. So I mean, I knew I knew at seven. And it just never changed. And I feel blessed. That that was that way. I was never one of those people that was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I don't know what I'm gonna study. So I just knew early on, and there was never a moment where I was like, I think I'll do something else. Now later in my career after 26 years of it. I knew when it was time to walk away, but there was that moment happened for me. It's seven, and it just stuck with me. So I think just based on talking to you and knowing you You're exactly where you're supposed to be. Not to say that that couldn't change but I was lucky it happened really early for me. So knowing what you know now What about law enforcement? What would you have done differently starting out? Um, well, that's a good question. I don't, I don't know that I would have done anything differently. I never I am do it the right way, try to do it to the best of your ability. Don't act like you're bigger than anybody because you carry a gun in a badge. I thought that really early on in my career, I have no trouble. I had no trouble being filmed. If you want to follow me fantastic. Because I know I'm not going to do anything that that will make the profession look bad. And body cam. So you know, I wouldn't change anything I think I learned early on. And I think I told you this before, when we talked, it's it's literally how you are, how you develop your relationships in the city or the town that you serve. And like I said, you know, when you asked me, the best thing you can do right now is to develop those relationships in the area where you're patrolling, because those people will help you solve murders later on in your career. I promise you that. Um, were you ever scared? Oh, god. Yeah. But I mean, of course, I mean, it's one of those things that I'm sure that you've, you've experienced it. I don't know that I was ever really scared in the moment. It was afterwards, you know, you get back into your car and you're like, holy shit. That was close. Or you know what I mean? So hopefully, the training that you received, I went to Plainville and there too, and then I went through I MPDS training. So I've been through training academies, and I will say this about IW, MPD. You're not going to get better training anywhere. I mean, you're not going to get better firearms training, you're not going to get better training anywhere. I would put IPD up against anybody in the country as far as training. So with that, yeah. Yeah. With that it when you ask the question, were you ever scared? I was, but I was after I the training kicked in. It was after the incident was over. It was after? When I was safe, that I was like, Oh, shit, that could have gone bad. Yeah. And that goes back to training that goes back to 20 100%. All right. Um, do you think college education should be mandatory for people to become police officers? You know what? That's a That's a good question. I think I think any any time you can get more life experience in this day and age will make you a better police officer. Do I think you have to have it? No. I think, you know, mandatory, I think they shouldn't do much mandatory now. Because they're not able to find people that want this profession. Yeah. So they need to look at that. But I mean, I think when I was in recruiting, I did recruiting a little bit with Indianapolis. And what I learned was when you really kind of wanted Pete, people with life experience, it didn't necessarily mean that it had to be college. But you know, you're taking a 21 year old, and putting them with a gun in a batch in a car, and telling them to go out and solve everyone's problems when you haven't experienced a whole heck of a lot. I mean, there's people that did it, and police departments did it. And they continue to do it. But what we're seeing is if you can wait to try to hire people at 2526, we're seeing that you're getting better officers, they're a little bit more mature, and they've had more life experiences. So it's kind of one of those things that you're never going to go wrong, hiring somebody that's got life experience, because that's all you're dealing with all days, everybody's life experiences. No, I 100% agree with that. I didn't start until I was 28. So no, so I agree with that. So what more can call her a case and you have zero information to go off of like, you don't have any evidence? You don't have anybody being helpful? Like they were there. But they were saying they don't know anything? Or you have no witnesses? Where do you start? Well, you you change your mindset, somebody knows something, there's evidence somewhere sure job to find it. So that I don't believe in oh my god, there's no witnesses. Oh my god, there's no evidence there absolutely is. Sometimes it's a lot easier when it's there. And you can see it or people stay around and want to give you statements but if you could change your mindset to believe that there are witnesses, there are people that saw it there there is evidence and work the case that way. It will and it's just work, work, work, work work. So it's like a snowball, right? You start out with little and the more you push it in the snow, the bigger it gets. Same thing with leads, same thing with witnesses. And remember to that people have information. And sometimes they don't give it for a really simple answer of I was never asked. And if you feel like somebody has information, keep going back because it's there. It's there. It always is there. Somebody knows something even if we know for sure that's Somebody knows something right? No one person knows that it was the killer. So try to change the mind frame that you don't have anything, and just go and find something. Okay. Okay, all right, I Well, I have three more, but I want to ask you this one is okay, is there like a case like a famous case, like cold case or anything that's been solved or not solved that you wish you could have been a part of. I think I wish I would have been a part of Delphi, I think that that case, could have been solved a lot quicker, I'm concerned with the evidence that they have now trying to convict the guy, I went up to Delphi. And I just think that there was a lot of work that could be still could be done on it. So you know, I don't need lights and all of that stuff. I think it took too long to solve it. I think there were a lot of hands in the pot in that case, and I just wish they would have opened their doors to me to, to just look not saying that I could have gone in and solved it. But you've got investigators that didn't do this every day. And they didn't bring in people that did and that's a little disturbing. I just wish overall that goes would go away. Because I think there's people out here like you and I and you know, my co workers and different things that want to help solve these cases. And unfortunately, you know, egos and Oh, my God would have somebody from the outside solve this, and I don't I look bad. If that can go away. I think we could solve a lot more. So right. I'm up to help with any. I'm up to help with any so am I good to ask you one more now? Yeah, go now. Go ahead. You got you got two more Go ahead. Okay. All right. Um, were there while you're on the on the force? Was there anybody that you looked up to that you knew, or somebody that was, I guess, famous that you, you know, kind of used as a mentor that you wanted to be like, I'm not anybody famous, or you know what, I think I was so lucky with the family that I had, every day that I went to work, I didn't want to do anything that would disappoint my mom and dad, I didn't want to show up on the news. You know, that I did something stupid. So I just, you know, I kind of kept those. I owe it to the people that I work with. I went to my family to go out and just represent. But as far as famous, I mean, I would be cool to meet Mariska. Haggerty, Colleen, can you spell that for me? Oh, my to do list. But now, I mean, just represent well, you know, keep you've got your friends, I just I have such great circle of friends. I have great family. And God, I don't want to go to work and be on the news one day or the front of the paper on the internet, doing something stupid. So I always kept that in the back of my mind. All right, my last one. Do you have any good book recommendations? Um, oh, that's a good one. Yeah, there's a couple. I think you did the, what was the interview school that you went to? Or that you thought? Yeah, read read is a good one. They've got a book. But I'll tell you, I don't know investigating homicides. I don't know that there's a book Start. Start thinking about how in your daily life, how are you going to get information from people? And you can do that anywhere you go, right? Like you go into a restaurant and you're ordering something. And let's say they give you a special ask, well, what's in it? What are the special ingredients get? Get, figure out your style of getting information from people, right. And that's something that after interview, an interview an interview. And the best advice I can give you with that is figure out how you're going to develop a connection. Because people will not give you information if they don't trust you. And people can trust you that you don't know pretty quickly. So learn just, you know, I think there's some good books out there, but be your own book. Look inside. How do you develop? How do you get information from people because that's what you need. You need information to solve things. How are you going to get that connection with that person? And that's just experience, but it's practice, like everything else. I I'm, you know, I try to solve everything all the time. It's a sickness, right? I've gone too far. But that's my job. I'm always trying to figure it out. Like oh my god, I gotta figure this out what's happening here? I'm gotta gotta figure this out. And so just but learning your style of doing it because suspects They're not stupid. I mean, we think they are and they are in a lot of reasons, but they know when you're disingenuous, so figure out how to get information but to be genuine about it. And remember this, and I say this, every single interview that I've done with ever, every murder suspect is I do out. Today when you woke up, you thought you were going to kill somebody. Please tell me how we got here and let them tell their story. Awesome. Okay, well, I appreciate you being a guest. having me. Absolutely calling you have any words of wisdom for her after hanging out with me? So many, but there's so many basically what you're the the the backstories how when you get a person's backstory, Chris, you say it just gives you a full tapestry, and it always leads to other clues or people to interview it leads to more. So one thing that you said, you've done differently than a lot of the other detectives you've worked with is you really dive deeper in your interviews. And you really want to know what peoples it ties into. How did we get here, but not just today? How did we get here period? How do you? How did we get to this point where your life is like this, and you have so many and you'll see that man on the street when you're working like when people steal shit, you really look behind that thing. You know, they could just be hungry. Right? Right. Yeah, you know, there are just some assholes and there are but people are doing things for a reason. And if you can kind of look the story behind the story, the story is okay, you stole something I've caught you. But you know what, how did we get here? If you develop empathy, empathy for doesn't mean you don't arrest them. You know, I you know, some people I didn't arrest everybody that I could not, you know, some people it's okay. I didn't write tickets to everybody that I could have. So yeah, like what Colleen said, learning the story behind the story. You'll develop empathy for people, but you'll also just be like, Yeah, you know, I've been there too, or Yeah, I can rely Yeah, I get it. Now. I get it. Why you stole those Air Jordans. Because you don't have shit and you wanted a pair? You know? Well, yeah, I get it. I wanted a pair too. Right. So So doing that is probably the best advice. So, anyways, well, thank you so so so much good luck in your career. You have my number. Feel free to text me keep your head on a swivel. Have you heard that? Yes. Okay, keep your head on a swivel always. And best of luck to you. Stay safe, and we'll talk soon. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. All right, everyone. Thanks again for listening. Please rate and review us and we'll see you next time on murder with mannina. If you have a cold case you'd like Chris to review submitted through our website at murder with mannina.com and follow us on Instagram and Facebook ad murder with mannina and Twitter at murder W mannina. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode of murder with ma