The World According to Jen & Carolyn
The World According to Jen & Carolyn is a podcast where history, politics, psychology, and humor collide in unexpected yet brilliant ways. Hosted by Jen, a community servant with a sharp wit and a knack for digging up the historical receipts, and Carolyn, a licensed marriage and family therapist who expertly unpacks the psychological layers behind it all, our show offers listeners a smart, hilarious, and refreshingly real conversation between two friends with 25 years of stories and opinions to share.
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The World According to Jen & Carolyn
Jeffrey Epstein: Power, Secrets, and the Price of Silence
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He was a financier, a socialite, a convicted sex offender. He had a private jet, a private island, and friends in the highest places — presidents (including our current one), princes, and billionaires. But behind the wealth and glamour, Jeffrey Epstein ran something darker. A system of abuse. A network of silence. And a web of power that shielded him for decades. Join Jen and Carolyn as they unpack the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and examine the deep-rooted systems of privilege and power that allowed him to operate with impunity for decades.
Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself. You're listening to the world according to Jen and Carolyn. Oh hello, Carolyn, happy Friday, as they say in the world of work.
SPEAKER_03T G I N. People have started saying happy Monday.
SPEAKER_00I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with doing that again? Can't that see in 2019?
SPEAKER_03I always say there's no such thing. Miss me with that shit.
SPEAKER_04And people generally love it and they keep doing it. Sometimes I'll go to work with like really bad PMS, and somebody will say that to me, and I'm just like, all I hear in my head is the woman from office space.
SPEAKER_02He's like, just get the minute. Just got a case of the Mondays. Just a minute.
SPEAKER_00Like, fuck you. Fuck you. No, no. The movie's amazing.
SPEAKER_03I love, I love my job. I love where I work.
SPEAKER_00I just hate the happy Monday sentiment.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03But it's Friday. I'm going to be thinking about Monday for a while. We hopefully. I got a kid's birthday party tomorrow. I've got a back to school party on Sunday. So we're going to be partying real hard this weekend. Oh. Actually, it's with really cool parents, though.
SPEAKER_01That everyone's back to school. You can feel it. Yes. Like it's back to school. It's crazy. I made the mistake of taking the geary bus. Oh, was it crazy? 330. Oh, it's fucked. Yes. I'm afraid of teenagers. It's officially happened. Oh no. They're just funny in the smell of like that musky teen smell. This is disgusting given what our topic is today.
SPEAKER_03They are good. I know. We released this is the worst segue ever. Because we're going to be talking about Jeffrey Epstein. Power Secrets and the Price of Silence. None of this is funny. No. All right. We got it out of our systems. We got it out of our systems. We had to bring, we're going to, we had to hit you with the levity. Now we're going to hit you with some darkness.
SPEAKER_01And I'm going to reframe this with how apparent it is to me that I'm 43 and they're 16. Yes. Everything about back to school high schoolers shows their age. Right.
SPEAKER_02I'm just going to say that. There is no sexual appeal in it for me, nor should there be for any adult.
SPEAKER_01If there is, you have a very bad disease. You're a pedophile. You are a pedophile. You should not be a function as a society. Right. You should not be allowed to be present in it. I agree. I agree.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, popular, unpopular. Right. I I mean, I get it.
SPEAKER_04And I as a parent, I really don't want to uh mingle amongst any pedos. Um it's it's a tough one. We'll conquer that one later, whether or not they should be completely and totally rehabilitated society. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. Um, it's a dark one. It really is. I definitely disagree with the ACLU when they say that members of Nambla should be allowed to meet in public libraries. I got a problem with that shit. Anyway, we're not here to talk about Nambla. Uh, we're gonna talk about Jeffrey Epstein. Now we recognize that a lot of folks, a lot of podcasts, you know, a lot of documentaries have have focused on Epstein. We are not the first, obviously, and we won't be the last. But I, you know, every time I listen to, you know, as a true crime buff, uh, a different podcast on Ted Bundy, for instance. Typically, each one I listen to, I learn something new. So that's our goal today. Hopefully, you learn something new and we cover something you hadn't yet heard. And hopefully we, the most important thing I think we can do is continue stoking that fire of putting pressure on Congress and on the Trump administration to release the fucking fire.
SPEAKER_01And supporting survivors and women, absolutely, children, yeah, and people who did their part in society and shame on the government.
SPEAKER_04That's the most important part right there. So, you know, we all know that Jeffrey was a financier, a socialite, and a convicted sex offender. He had a private jet, a private island, and friends in the highest places, presidents, including Trump, princes and billionaires. But behind the wealth and glamour, Epstein ran something darker, as we all know. It was a system of abuse, a network of silence and a web of power that shielded his ass for decades. So we're gonna unpack the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and examine the deep-rooted systems of privilege, as we love to do, and power that allowed him to operate with impunity for decades. Yes. People knew what was going on. Yes. And he got a slap on the wrist once, and that was the extent of it until he finally went down. And it is absolutely egregious. So, Carolyn, had you heard of Epstein before all this shit came out?
SPEAKER_01No, no, never. Uh, I don't know why I would. I mean, I think the only time I kind of got into like socialiteness, yeah, maybe like in towards college, like when Real Housewives came out, like kind of like that, like you always knew who the moms were who had a lot of money or who the people were, at least in in in my upbringing. And so I think that type I can resonate with. I've certainly worked as a nanny for people, wonderful people. Yeah. But that echelon of, well, maybe not that, but like San Francisco socialite, right? And so no, but you know, I've watched all four documentaries. Okay. Yeah, I think I have as well. They there I since it came out, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I've been following it. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I can't honestly say that I heard of him prior to all this going down either. Even when he initially got into trouble, which we'll we'll talk about. I don't remember hearing about it. Yeah. Um, so you know, let's talk about who this motherfucker was. So he was born in Brooklyn in 1953, and by many accounts, his early life was pretty normal. His father worked for Parks Department. He was smart, particularly in math, and attended both Cooper Union and NYU. He didn't graduate though. Epstein, that is, not his dad. Um, his brief and unusual career as a teacher is one of the early mysteries in his professional life. And frankly, it fucking scares me. And it's an early example of how privilege and connections helped him advance despite lacking credentials. Yeah. It's a white man thing. So he worked at a school called the Dalton School. I think this was an extremely prestigious place. He was there from 1974 to 1976. He taught math and physics. He was hired by a dude named Donald Barr. Now, then he was that he was the headmaster at Dalton, and he was also the father of William Barr, who decades later would serve as the attorney general under Trump, who oversees the DOJ while Epstein was in custody. Talk about a full circle moment. Wow. So he was unconventional but charismatic. I could see that. Oh yeah, 100%. Like I see pictures, even when he was older. He's a handsome guy.
SPEAKER_02I would probably have accepted a drink. Right. It would have been drugged.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, you mean not his type. Sorry. God.
SPEAKER_04So he was unconventional, yeah, but charismatic. Students recall Epstein as intelligent, confident, somewhat arrogant. He wore flashy clothes, pushed boundaries, I bet, and cultivated relationships beyond the classroom. I bet. So relationships with students. There have been unconfirmed accounts suggesting Epstein's behavior towards some students was inappropriate or boundary pushing. There were no official allegations at the time, but these are some reports. So he left Dalton after two years under unclear circumstances. Some accounts suggest he was dismissed for overstepping professional lines. Others suggest he left voluntarily to pursue finance, which he did. So he went to Wall Street after that. So his connections completely paid off. One of the parents of a Dalton student reportedly helped Epstein secure an entry-level position at Bear Stearns, despite his lack of credentials yet again, or experience in finance. That marked the beginning of his meteoric and very mysterious rise on Wall Street.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's interesting. I remember watching one of the documentaries where they had interviewed the guy at Dalton. And his strategy, which is so sociopathic and serial killer-like, is when he got caught, he'd own up. Oh, and then he'd call in. Oh, wow. So he'd make you drop your defenses. Uh-huh. And so when he got caught at Dalton, he was like, You got me. Like, here's my idea. Like, here's what I can do for you. Wow.
SPEAKER_04But true psychopath. Right? I think he's a true psychopath. I think so too. So he was a psychopath. So, and this is crazy to me, too.
SPEAKER_00Don't haunt us, Jeffrey Epstein. Oh, God. Oh God. That would be the fucking Epstein Files can also be. Oh my god, the Epstein files. Box Files, Epstein Files. They can burn. Being haunted by that motherfucker.
SPEAKER_03Can you imagine? I want almost. No, I would like I would almost rather have Hitler haunt me, but no, no, no. No.
SPEAKER_00But like it's just terrible. Who would have been So only people from heaven who are good places in reincarnation can become ghosts then?
SPEAKER_01Because you never see someone complaining about a ghost Hitler. That's not true.
SPEAKER_03Really? I mean, not ghosts. I don't know about ghost Hitler specifically, but the paranormal, that's another avenue that I've I've delved deeply into. And uh there's some malevolent spirits out there, some dark spirits.
SPEAKER_01I hope there aren't people trying to connect with serial killers in the afterlife.
SPEAKER_04You think so? Absolutely. But you want that. Remember our serial killer episode where it was talking about kids, teenagers who were going full Bundy on TikTok, pretending to be Bundy, pretending to be one of his victims. There are some teenagers misled, misguided, whatever, adults who do it, y'all need help. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, let's go back to Epstein. So Bear Stern's rise on Wall Street. In the 70s, he landed a job at the elite investment firm, Bear Sterns. As I said, no credentials. He rose quickly. I don't get that. I know so many people who work in finance, you have to take like your series seven, your series blah, blah, blah, your series 69. I don't fucking know. Maybe he was really smart. Yes, but you still, these days, you have to take those tests in order to be um like a financial advisor, financier, whatever. Like those are the laws. Nobody is supposed to be able to jump those systems, I don't think. So by the 80s, he had launched his own financial consulting firm managing the money of the ultra wealthy. But here's where the facts grow really thin. To this day, we don't even fully understand how this motherfucker made his money. You know, his clients were super hush-hush. Some say he ran offshore accounts, totally believable. Others point to intelligence connections. But one thing, totally clear, Epstein was rich as fuck. I think he blackmailed people from the get-go. I bet he did. And that's why he's dead. Because he he he knew he had all the receipts. The motherfucker had the receipts. He owned a $77 million townhouse in Manhattan, a private island in the Virgin Islands, which I think was called Little St. Jeff. Fucking creepy. A Boeing 727. Dude, his 727. The man was so brazen, he named his plane the Lolita Express. No! What the whole thing? And I think Trump was on the manifest like 28 plus times. Anyway, we'll talk about his ass later. Super mice.
SPEAKER_00You might as well write I'm a pedo on my plane. Anyway. My heart Nambla, bumper sticker. Yes.
SPEAKER_04He had powerful connections, obviously, to Bill Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew, this dude named Les Wexter Wexner, who we're gonna talk about. Alan Dershowitz. Alan Dershowitz, who was on OJ's team, powerful dudes. And so with Epstein always came proximity to power. So Les Wexner, he was his only known confirmed client. He's one of the most important figures in Epstein's rise to wealth and power. So he started his career in the 60s with a single store, The Limited. We all remember The Limited, right?
SPEAKER_01The Limited Editor pants. Yeah. Oh, I basically thought I was in my mid-40s and my 20s.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I was like, ooh, look at my pointy shoe and my editor pants.
SPEAKER_04That's where I would my ergile v-neck. Totally. All my professional shit would come from either the limited or express. Yes. So that's what this dude did. It targeted young women with affordable fashion. His sharp business instincts turned that into a store of vast retail empire. So he met Epstein around 1986 through some mutual acquaintances. And Wexner hired Epstein as his financial manager, granted him an unusual level of control over his finances and personal affairs. What did Jeff have on you, Les? So key details. Epstein had power of attorney over this dude's accounts, giving him legal authority to sign checks, buy and sell properties, and make financial decisions on Wexner's behalf. That is a tremendous amount of power. He managed vast sums of Wexner's personal wealth and alleged, allegedly helped him restructure his trust and philanthropic foundation. In 1998, Wexner sold his $77 million Manhattan Townhouse, one of the largest private residences in New York, to Epstein for wanna know how much? Oh God. Zero dollars. I don't even know how you can say he sold it to him. He gave it to him. It was later deeded for $10 million. But Epstein paid nothing personally.
SPEAKER_01I'm glad if someone did that for me right now. Right. I will totally take your house for free.
SPEAKER_00Of course. But I don't want to have any bad shit.
SPEAKER_01He has had some shit on him.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02So the house would become.
SPEAKER_04The house would become central to Epstein's trafficking operation. It's the house that they show in all of the documentaries, which looked absolutely palatial and amazing and gorgeous, but now it's tainted by nasty shit. So Wexner had stated that Epstein misappropriated large sums of money from him, though he hasn't filed criminal charges. I wonder why he didn't file criminal charges. Weird. His foundation claimed to have discovered the theft after cutting ties with Epstein in 2007, after the time of Epstein's first sex crime conviction. So the closeness of their relationship, really weird. Again, wide speculation about what Wexner knew when he knew it. Like, did he know what Jeffy was doing? Wexner has denied knowledge of Epstein's crime, stating he was embarrassed and deceived by him. And victims and investigators have questioned how Epstein was able to obtain, as we said, so much wealth and power without Wexner's knowledge. How did this all happen? So, Carolyn, what social and psychological factors contribute to literally entire communities from business leaders to political figures ignoring warning signs of abuse? You know, plain this is the Lolita Express.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's different for I'm gonna I don't know if you'll agree with me, but I think it's different for survivors when I'm talking about how it's missed than when it's this type of person. Okay. You know what I mean? You say more. Yeah. I think that we I want to be careful to not be like they should have known. Like all of us should know.
SPEAKER_04No, no, no, no. Right? I want to focus solely on powerful individuals, leaders in the business community and political figures, completely ignoring, or as we know or think we know, leaning into benefiting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. So here's a psychological uh breakdown and a physiological breakdown of how entire communities enable abuse. Okay. Um, so nervous system dynamics. Powerful people, when they're involved, our nervous systems work against us. A political system reads wealth and status as safety, which is in my mind the exact opposite. I'm always speculating, right? Yes. Unless it's like socially run. Right. Um, we literally calm down around people who seem successful. Epstein weaponized this by creating environments that felt prestigious and safe. Yeah. And again, I think it depends on your experience. Like I might be around a cop and go, oh, I can feel safe. Someone else might have short experience and it'd be very different, right? So the halo effect, we've talked about this before. Success in one area creates a cognitive bias where we assume competence in morality in other areas. He's a brilliant financer. He's probably trustworthy with children. That is quite the jump.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm shitty with money. That makes you great with kids. It's true.
SPEAKER_01It's true. Our brains make a dangerous leap automatically. Institutional self-protection. So organizations protect their reputation over victims, universities, law firms, we saw this in the hunting ground, governments. They all have economic and social incentives to minimize a scandal. Yes. And acknowledging abuse means acknowledging their own failures and oversights. The bystander effect, we've talked about this too. Elite circles assume someone else is gonna handle that. So, you know, Harvard must have vetted him. Yes. Right? Or the FBI must know what they're doing.
SPEAKER_04Right. Like when you hear somebody calling for help in a dark alley and you assume, oh, somebody else will call the police.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Totally, totally. Um yeah. So compartmentalization as survival. So people literally separate Jeffree, I know him at dinner parties from Jeffrey who abuses children. Yeah. I think this is what makes me somewhat frustrated in sports and entertainment. Right. Right. Where it's like, uh, separate the artist from the art.
SPEAKER_04I firmly believe that Michael Jackson is a pedophile, especially after seeing leaving Neverland. Yeah. So many bells went off for me in terms of grooming behavior and when these kids who, as adults, finally came to the realization that they had been abused, I'm like, oh no, no, no, this is this is classic abuser shit. And so where whenever I'm out and somebody puts on Michael Jackson, I just like cross my arms and get all curmudgeny. Especially when I worked at the YMCA. I'm like, we work with children. So I definitely that that like you gotta you gotta do it with Aerosmith too. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that that's a little uh I don't know much about that. I don't know what the circumstances were. It's not as like there's a documentary gem. I'll have to see it. But with Michael Jackson, I think it's indisputable and it happened over and over again for decades.
SPEAKER_01We can say this is a similar thing. So yeah, power protects power, right? That's case in point. Non-colonial, so if you're looking at this through a non-colonial feminist lens, perfect. My favorite lens. My favorite kind of glasses. So systems are designed to protect the top. And questioning Epstein meant questioning entire networks of privilege for people who benefited from them. And these weren't individual moral failures, they were predictable psychological and social responses that powerful predators deliberately exploit. Yeah. Like you said, the system worked exactly it's designed to protect wealth and status over vulnerable people. Yeah. Yeah. And it didn't hurt that he was white, it didn't hurt that he was good looking. Yep. If that had been a black man, oh yeah, he would have been done fast.
SPEAKER_04Michael Jackson, I think, was the exception because he was so immensely talented. Well, that that probably helped. But he was so in, he was he was the most uh popular musician artist in the entire world. Yeah. You know, this this dude has got no talent or skills. He just happens to be really deceptive and white and rich. So let's talk a little bit about the system of abuse, which I think a lot of folks are familiar with. In 2005, police in Palm Beach, Florida received a disturbing tip. A 14-year-old gor girl said she'd been paid to give Epstein a massage and that he'd sexually assaulted her. Investigators soon uncovered dozens of similar stories. So Epstein ran a years-long sex trafficking operation that targeted underage girls, some as young as 13. He lured victims with promises of money, modeling opportunities or connections, then coerced or manipulated them into sexual acts. Many survivors say they were paid for massages that quickly turned abusive, and some were pressured to recruit other girls. That's the sick part.
SPEAKER_01He preyed on girls in West Palm Beach. Yeah, which is low-income girls. Low income. Yep. And offered them two to three hundred dollars and he created a sexual pyramid scheme. Right. So if they came over and they didn't want to, right, if they did say no and had the ability to bypass everything that I think anybody would be well within their right to push down. Yeah, he would say, Well, I'll cut you in on the deal if you can find me a friend. Right. So a lot this was the worst part. A lot of the women who were taught speaking were saying, My friend brought me. And I remember she be she would say, like, I'm gonna have to go do this thing. Will you go with me? Yeah. Which I've done with friends, not just.
SPEAKER_04Not to an old man's house, but yeah, well when you're 14 and 15, you're making shitty decisions. Yes, you're low income. Somebody's offering you more money than you've probably ever had in your pocket. Like I don't begrudge these girls. Like, and I I've seen interviews with them and and the ones who brought friends, the guilt they feel. Oh yeah. And and you're a victim though. Yeah, oh yeah. They're being exploited just as badly as the girls who are actually being abused. Like they're being abused too. Yeah. Oh, it's just so sad. So, you know, his wealth and powerful connections, of course, shielded him and helped him, you know, avoid consequences for years. So, again, identifying vulnerability. Epstein and his associates, most notably Guy Lane Maxwell, they targeted girls from unstable families, low-income girls, you know, difficult circumstances, you name it. Many were approached in malls, parks, or through other girls, as you said, in Epstein's circle. False promises. They were told they'd be paid for legitimate work, usually giving massages or offered career opportunities, including modeling gigs, acting roles, or scholarships.
SPEAKER_01This was like the other side that he had. These were like his sex like slaves almost that he created, enslaved, where he liked girls that he would offer like internships or artists in residencies.
SPEAKER_04These are the ones, oh, that girl, that poor girl. These are the ones that he'd fly around and oh my God, and both the sister and she were abused. It's awful. And we we also didn't mention that Les Wexner owned Victoria's Secret. That's right. So when Elaine Maxwell gets out of a limousine on the street in New York or Palm Beach and says, I work for Jeffrey Epstein, who works for Victoria's Secret. We want you to be a model. And he has the credentials to prove that he is connected to Victoria's Secret.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like it's quite the scale.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, don't go to the guy who, you know, advertises on the phone booth. Right. Phone booth. What's that?
SPEAKER_04What's a phone booth? God damn it. But no, I hear you. Like a Craigslist. You know, like, you know, does some weirdo on Craigslist? She's like, come over and model nude for me and I'll pay you $25. Like that guy, but this is the real creep right here. Psychology of it. Yes, it's crazy. So, you know, we talked about a bit about the grooming process. So girls were invited to Epstein's lavish properties. Maxwell or other associates would sometimes be present to make them feel safe. During those visits, conversations and activities would slowly cross boundaries, completely normalizing sexualized behavior. So Epstein cultivated friendships with influential political, legal, and business figures, some of whom he visited his properties or flew on his private jet. So by 2006, Belize had actually built a case. The FBI was involved, as they should be, because it involves children and trafficking. But then came the deal, which we'll talk about in a bit. But I think we need to take a minute to discuss Elaine Maxwell, someone we like to call the enabler. I think she's a psychopath too, though. She's terrible. She's she's a piece of shit. Oh, I I love it. She's chiseling. We'll talk more about this. We'll talk more about this, but she recently got transferred to a lower security prison. Surprise the Trump administration transferred her. I think they're hoping that somebody will beat her ass and kill her. But anyway, she um wanted to work for canine companions who are in the prison, and canine companions was like, no, no, you can't. We're not gonna let you train our dogs. Fuck you. I was like, yes, can't be a good thing.
SPEAKER_01All I can think of is that orange is the new black when they give the girls the dogs and boo has the dogs.
SPEAKER_03Oh god, we're not going there. Anyway, so most disturbing that this is more disturbing than this.
SPEAKER_04This is far more disturbing. So if Epstein was the architect of his trafficking network, then Elaine Maxwell was in many ways the engineer that really kept it running. We can't do an episode about the shit bag without talking about his trash bag of an accomplice. So she was born in 61. The youngest daughter of a dude named Robert Maxwell, who was a British media mogul, newspaper owner, and alleged intelligence asset. She grew up with tremendous wealth and privilege. And a huge pervert. Huge pervert as well. Attended, she went to Oxford. You know, she was very adept to moving easily in elite social circles. I'm sure she opened the door for Jeffrey in a lot of ways, too. That's why he kept her around. So, but her world collapsed in 91 when her father died under mysterious circumstances, falling from his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine. In the aftermath, it was revealed that Robert Maxwell had looted hundreds of millions from his company's pension funds. Ghlaine left the UK soon after and moved to New York, which is where she met Jeffrey. Friends say that they were romantically involved in the early 90s, but their relationship soon shifted to something more complex and fucking sick. A mix of a business partnership, social climbing, and according to multiple survivors, active collaboration in the abuse. So Maxwell was Epstein's gatekeeper. She mingled with billionaires, royals, and celebrities. She opened the door to high society for Jeffrey. Prosecutors say she also used that charm to lure those vulnerable girls into Jeffree's orbit. So one victim described Maxwell as the one who approached her and made her feel safe and then slowly crossed boundaries until abuse became normal. And from what I understand, she was committing sexual assault as well. Yeah. So others said Maxwell would arrange travel, prepare rooms, and sometimes, like I said, participate in the abuse herself. So in July 2020, almost exactly a year after Epstein's death, the FBI arrested Ghislaine Maxwell in New Hampshire. She was charged with sex trafficking of minors, conspiracy, and perjury for lying about her role under oath. So her trial in 2021 revealed disturbing details. Testimony from four women who said they were groomed and abused as teenagers, accounts of Maxwell giving instructions on how to massage Epstein, evidence of her presence on Epstein's private planes and at his various properties. So in December of 2021, she was convicted on five federal counts, including sex trafficking of a minor, transporting a minor with intent to engage in criminal sexual activity. In 2022, she was sentenced to 20 years in a federal prison. So she always says she's innocent. She claims she was a scapegoat for Epstein's crimes, but survivors say otherwise, and I believe those survivors. So Ghlaine Maxwell's story is not just about one woman's fall from grace. It really is about wealth and status and influence, which can be weaponized to protect predators and silence victims. So, Carolyn, this is something I wanted to ask you about. So I read that female perpetrators only account for a very small fraction of recorded sex offenses in jurisdictions that do provide gender breakdowns, because most don't, it probably isn't really necessary, usually via law enforcement or correctional data. Women often represent less than 10% of offenders in categories like rape, child sex abuse, and other sexual crimes. Talk to us about what a rare fucking dirt bag our girl Guy Lane appears to be based on this data.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, 100%. You're absolutely right about those stats. And female sex offenders represent only 5 to 20% of cases. But here's what makes Maxwell's case rare and really predictable from a sense, from a trauma lens. And I think this is where I don't know if this then turns into a public health debate on what are we gonna do. Okay. Right. But all right, so here's the research reality. So studies show that female offenders have extensive trauma histories. Okay. Usually 50% experienced childhood sexual abuse, 41% had four more adverse childhood experiences. Okay. Um I again, one would be they were abused. Okay. Um so Maxwell fits this pattern, but we missed it initially because of her privilege. Right. And so father factor, right? You talked about Robert Maxwell's. It is well documented that he was physically and emotionally abusive. And a childhood friend reported nine-year-old Glenn saying, quote, Daddy lets me choose the instruments he beats me with. Whoa. That's some fucking borderline shit. Yeah. Right. Um, he controlled her relationships, wouldn't let her bring boyfriends home, and made her his quote, favorite classic con uh what, oh, sorry, and made her his favorite. And this was something I learned. It was like the first job I ever had out of graduate school and working in an addiction rehab for teens. And I heard the term covert incest, and I was like, what the fuck is that? Yeah. And you know, these type that's what's happening when a parent does that. And it's not, it's always like, oh, look at your bot, like Trump shit. Like, look at your fucking body in that. Like, look how hot you look. Yeah. Yeah. Dads don't say that to me. My dad was a lot of things. He never said shit like that to me. You know, naming his boat the Lady Ghane. Right, isn't that kind of weird? So yeah, covest ins incest is emotional enmeshment where parent uses a child as an emotional spouse. Oh God. And hit no physical. Um, sometimes there is, but typically there isn't physical sexual contact, but there's a lot of physiological damage. And Maxwell was groomed to prioritize powerful men's needs over boundaries. Exactly what she did later with victims and her mom. There's like this whole dynamic with like the mom, and like we're yeah, very interesting. Wow. So trauma to perpetrator pipeline, right? Because then causation doesn't necessarily mean correlation, right? So Maxwell didn't become a predator despite her background. She became one because of it. She learned that her value came from facilitating powerful men's desires and the boundaries are fluid, and young girls existed for older men's pleasure. So I'm not, it's like the criminally insane question. Uh-huh. It's like, did she know that was wrong? Right? Like this happened to her and it's how she survived. Right. And they talk in her documentary about that she had just this huge breakdown of imagine doing anything, breaking all the boundaries for this father. Yeah. Then he leaves you with nothing. And rather than it could have gone like, well, fuck you. Yeah. I'm a survivor. Yeah. But she went the opposite way and completely devolved mentally. It kind of is how I would understand what that happens. Whereas I have to attach to the next thing, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Well, I think she had at least had a comfortable life in terms of having all of her beyond having all of her needs met, right? Like for her, it seems like living a lavish lifestyle was more important than not being on the receiving end of abuse or facilitating abuse.
SPEAKER_01Because that's warped. Yeah. There's a warpedness to that. And I want to say that given that a child's mind is so fragile, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. Again, I'm always going to feel the child is a victim. Yeah. Um, but the bottom line is she's not a gender anomaly. She's a trauma survivor who became then a perpetrator. And understanding that doesn't excuse her crimes, but it absolutely explains how someone becomes capable of such systemic betrayal of vulnerable girls. Because you and I wouldn't that's a traitor to any woman. Right. I would like, right? Like I wouldn't do it. A human. Yeah. And we have this instinct to protect children. So something's not exploit children. So something's not right. Right. Something's broken. Yeah. Again, that's why I don't think at that level you can function. Yeah. Something's broken. Yeah. I don't know how you fix that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. We're not making excuses. We're just trying to understand why it is she behaves the way that she she does. Right. Because it it is somewhat, as we said, out of the norm in terms of gender, but not in terms of folks who have been abused and then go on to abuse.
SPEAKER_01Well, and what we're also trying to then use that for is what how predictable, if we know that's a predictable pathway, this is why rules and regulations and oversight and and not back, you know, you don't meet Harvey Weinstein in the hotel room. Right. But then that becomes the thing, right? That's what wealth and privilege do. And who are those are always the fucking people. Yep. Yeah. And then even we kind of are like, oh, they? Well, we live in a society, right?
SPEAKER_04I know. And then you start to think about here like, wait, this makes total sense. Because we live in a society where we're taught that money solves your problems. Um and that makes you happy. It's a very material world that we live in, particularly in America. And if somebody tests, yes, Madonna. But if somebody is tempting you with that sort of either exposure as a motion picture actor, or or money winning don't yeah, when you don't have any money and your family is struggling and your parents are working multiple jobs, like you know, it's just I don't know, people will do crazy shit for money. Not then this isn't blaming the victim, but like people will do what they need to do to survive, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And people know that and they use that against you. Sure. And it sucks. Yeah. It sucks. And that's, you know, again, I think we're always looking at how can we take this information we have about trauma and childhood development and do something, do do better.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, you know, maybe make uh access to health to mental health treatment affordable or free so that folks who have endured abuse at the hands of a parent, oh, I don't know, might be able to work that shit out in therapy so they don't turn around and do it to somebody else. I mean, I think that would fix a lot of shit if people had somebody that they could process this with. But you, I don't have to fucking tell you the barriers are extremely high.
SPEAKER_01You know what's weird though? You know who really that that type of person either wouldn't go because they're such a narcissist, or I'm sorry, it doesn't get talked about. Oh, right? The secrets. Yeah, secret, secrets. Maybe. Or they go and they don't say anything.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's possible. Um, but yeah, it's true. But haven't people in your practice talk to you about the sexual abuse that they endured? Is that true? Yeah, but yeah, I don't think they have the wealth and privilege that these ones do. Not talking about wealth and privilege, but if we're talking about disrupting that cycle. Oh, yes, yes, yes. So that's all I'm talking about. Right. You know, excluding wealth and privilege, just the access to quality mental health to discuss what's happened to you so you can process it. And and we know that most folks who have endured it don't turn around and do it to other people, but that people that do do it, a lot of them have had it done to them.
SPEAKER_01Well, and then you want to know that if someone reports that, yeah, it's sexual is not thankfully that has not entered into my head with a client in to where I've had to report that. But physical, yes. Yeah, physical abuse. And it's really sucks when you're, you know, having a supervisor be like, but you're gonna be that person who they let the kid be mad at you. They're when they're older, they'll remember while that adult told the truth. Yeah. But then this you put them into that system and nothing happens or all the things. So again, it's like the people who need the help, but you know, it's it that's another thing too.
SPEAKER_04The system is shitty. Yes. So you take you, you know, if if we're you're talking about somebody who's currently in the situation, not trying to heal from the trauma in the aftermath, currently in the situation, and they go into the system, and the system fucking sucks and and and thrusts different kinds of trauma onto them. It's like you're doing a disservice. So the lack of access to mental health, the shitty system, the foster care system, you know, all of that, like all of that, the odds are stacked against that person. Yep. Anyway, yeah. So let's go back to that deal. You know that deal I talked about uh that in in 2008, Jeffrey Epstein. So this is the deal that I briefly mentioned, and this I'm gonna tell you more about it. Here we go. I'm gonna get my my mind back on track here, or at least try. So in 2008, Epstein pleaded guilty to two state charges, soliciting prostitution, including with a minor. He was sentenced to 18 months in jail, but served only 13, much of it on work release. He was allowed to leave the jail six days a week for up to 12 hours a day. He spent pretty much no time in jail. So that's it. Just a slap on the wrist. So Julie K. Brown, did you hear about Julie K. Brown in any of the documentaries? I'm pretty sure she was mentioned. She played a pivotal role in exposing the secret plea deal that helped Jeffrey Epstein avoid serious prison time in 2008. This is a somewhat detailed profile of her and her ground breaking work. So I'm gonna go over it really quickly. So she has a series that she published in November of 2018 called Uh Perversion of Justice. Remember this? It's a three-part investigative series, and it revealed how federal prosecutors, led by U.S. attorney Alexander Alexander Acosta, secretly brokered a non-prosecution agreement with Jeffrey Epstein in 2008, effectively halting a federal investigation into large sex trafficking network of involving minors. So, you know, she she brought forth a ton of revelations in this report that he was trafficking dozens of underage girls. Uh, he was never federally prosecuted, as we know. Acosta approved a deal that allowed Epstein to plead guilty to the just those two charges that I mentioned. And then we talked about the slap on the wrist in terms of the 13 months and you know, work release and all that bullshit. And it granted immunity to Epstein's alleged co-conspirators, including recruiters without notifying his victims. So the deal was kept secret from the victims, a violation of the crimes, the crime victims' rights act. So just impropriety and illegal shit happening everywhere. So she relied, Brown, that is, on a lot of victim interviews, direct interviews with several of Epstein's uh abuse survivors, you know, many of whom who had actually been ignored by law enforcement and media for years. She gave them a platform. She tracked down 80 of these women, several of whom courageously shared their stories. Oh, it's getting me all for Clem. Not just about Epstein's abuse, but of institutional betrayal by the justice system. And that's the key point here. Because there's an entire system that protected his man, this man, and his co-conspirators. This isn't just about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghilaine Maxwell. This is about the system that's still fucking protecting him. Yes. And still protecting her. Yeah. We know what he did. We know what she did. But there's too much at stake for, oh, I don't know the guy who's currently in the fucking White House to actually do right by these people. It's sick. It's fucked up. And people still love him. It's fucked. So, you know, the impact of the investigation, Brown's reporting revived national attention on Epstein over a decade after this controversial plea deal. So the public outcry that followed her series led to a bunch of dope shit. A federal investigation reopening in 2019, which culminated in him being put in prison and ultimately murdered. Oops, I mean dying by suicide. The resignation of Alexander Acosta, the U.S. Secretary of Labor. Fuck you. A wider investigation into Epstein's network, including a digilane herself. So and a renewed legal effort by victims to seek justice. So, you know, how did Epstein even get this deal in the first place? It came from that piece of shit, Acosta, who later became Donald Trump's secretary. Weird. I know. They're all connected. All these shitbags are connected. Well, he got fired previously. Yeah, the agreement known as a non-prosecution agreement was sealed. Epstein's co-conspirators were granted immunity and his victims weren't told. So, you know, 2019, everything started to collapse. You know, Jeffrey Epstein apparently killed himself. I don't believe that shit for a minute. Broken cameras, missing guards, malfunctioning logs. It sparked endless conspiracy theories, some plausible, some absurd, but the plausible ones are really plausible. So Epstein's death did not end the investigation, as we know. Focuses on Guy Lane right now. She's in prison for 20 years. As I said, she recently got moved to a lower security prison. Fucked up. But for survivors, justice is totally incomplete. What about the people who flew his plane? What about the people who visited the island or appeared in his address book, his little black book, which we know fucking existed. Look what happened to Heidi Fleiss. I know. I know. And look what happened to like Martha Stewart, for instance. Yes, yeah, you know, like come on. Like, well, not Martha's. I don't think that's a great example, but anyway, like but people, people who, you know, are connected and saw things. Oh, no, I know a good I know a great way. Yeah, Sandusky. Joe Paterno. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's like, okay, Joe Paterno knew what was going on. I have no doubt that he knew Sandusky was abusing children. Yeah. What about that guy? Yeah. What about that guy? He had somewhat of a fall from grace, but guess what? There are still people who fucking sing his praises. People who were pissed at the boys who had become men by then who came out and said, Paterno knew. Mm hmm. Fuck that shit. Yeah. Oh, it makes me so mad. And you know, in 20 in 2023, a list of Epstein's contacts were made public in court documents. It included politicians, scientists, celebrities. Some had legitimate business with Epstein, others We may never know. They're just contacts. We don't know why they're contacts, right? We can assume. I think they'd be good assumptions. And that's the final cruelty of the story so much remains hidden. Sealed documents, silenced voices, deals made behind closed fucking doors, a president who's still protecting this motherfucker, even though he's been long dead. You know, there's another truth, and it's that survivors, young women, once ignored or discredited, who finally broke the silence, they are strong. We need to focus on them. We who they forced the world to look at the rot hiding behind wealth and charm and to say, look at this system. But they're one, they're a few of many. How many people, women in particular, have been done wrong by this system? Yeah. And the world acknowledges it. They have enough receipts, and it took far more evidence than it would take a lot of other folks to say, this actually happened to me. The world acknowledged this happened. We go, the system is rotten. And we don't fucking display the system. Yeah. These it's still a system where people can be abused and coerced into silence or dismissed. It happens. I know I listen to true crime all the fucking time. And this is a theme, particularly for women.
SPEAKER_01It's like it's like the wolf in sheep's clothing. Yeah, how so well. We're told, again, back to the Craigslist thing, we're we're told what to be look out for. Yeah. But that it's like when we were growing up and like the McGruff crime, it was like, ah, the table with all the you know, weed on it. It was like inner city kids with boom boxes. It's like that's the the perception you're given of, you know, look at what every serial killer is. It's Ted Bundy, uh John Wayne Gacy, the head of the Cub Scouts.
SPEAKER_04Well, you know, when you talk about McGruff, it's not necessarily a wolf in sheep's clothing, but yes, it's like take a bite at a crime. It's like urban kids selling a bag of weed when the fucking CIA is bringing cocaine into the country and turning it into crack. That fucking happened. That's like that's the real crap. And that, you know, bringing it back to the climate that we're in today and the climate that we in this country have so often been in, where you're pointing at, you know, for instance, brown people and saying, they're the problem, they're the problem. But in reality, it's it's not them, it's the system.
SPEAKER_01Well, and this crosses racial bar lines because we have a problem as a species, I guess. Definitely in America, but I would say in the culture, uh, we don't seem I I saw you had Woody Allen's name in there. Oh, yeah. We are okay with seeing older men with young girls.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And children. Right. Or even just super young women. You know, like I I often wonder like, what does a 58-year-old man, for instance, I'm just pulling that number out of the ether, have in common with a 21-year-old woman? What do y'all fucking talk about? You know, but society, I think now we're more like, okay, that's uh what's going on. But still, it's more acceptable than if it were the other way around, for instance.
SPEAKER_01Well, and she's a mature woman then. Right. She's old, old soul. Oh, Jesus.
SPEAKER_03That is a topic for another episode.
SPEAKER_04So, you know, we know that Jeffrey Epstein used his money and manipulation and a system designed to protect the powerful, but in the end, it was truth and courage that brought his empire crashing down. We have to remember that. I think it's important to end on that note and to um sing the praises of the survivors who had the strength and the courage to come forward very publicly and say, This happened to me, and this is how it happened to me. And I want accountability and I want justice. I'm grateful for that. I really am. We owe them a debt of gratitude for taking this monster literally off the planet.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and how many people were affected because it didn't get taken care of first?
SPEAKER_04Yes. How many women went to the police and said, This happened to me at this rich motherfucker's house in West Palm Beach or wherever? You know, like, and the cops were like, whatever. Yep. Oh, you're just like a poor, you know, a poor girl from the wrong side of the tracks. Like, this is bullshit.
SPEAKER_02He bought the whole thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he really did. So Chen and Carolyn say, release the police. We don't give a shit who's in the files. I no. So many people have said in response to us saying us being Democrats, you know, progressives, release the files, like, oh, what about Clinton? I don't give a shit about Bill Clinton. I don't give a fuck about Clinton. I don't care how many other Democrats are in there. Burn them down. If you're in there, you're a pedo. Yeah. And you need to be brought to justice. You're a piece of shit. You were complicit in a sex trafficking ring and you knew it. I don't care who's in there. Protecting children is the most important things to thing to us, and it should be the most important thing to the American public. I don't want to hear any motherfuckers on the right talking about protecting kids from drag queens or protecting kids from trans folks. Drag queens and trans folks ain't doing this shit. I'm so fucking tired of it. So, right, people on the right, put your fucking money where your mouth is and ask that these files be released and ask that the people in these files be prosecuted. Because if you genuinely give a fuck about protecting children, you'll want these files released. And you don't care if you're fucking demigogue or whatever, Donald Trump goes down. Uh-huh. Because if he's in those files, which I believe he is, and if he did, some of the shit that survivors have come out and said he did to them, he needs to fucking go down. It's about time. It's already a fucking foul.
SPEAKER_01I don't think it's gonna happen though. We'll see.
SPEAKER_04We'll see what happens. I'm holding out hope. I'm always holding out hope, guys. Anyway, I'm I'm tired of yelling. Um, it's hard, it's crazy. I'm on like two milligrams of THC and four milligrams of C B D. You're quite wired. Yet I'm all I'm all hyped the fuck up here on anger and aggression toward Jeffrey Epstein. But I guess Jeffrey Epstein transcends my my uh transcends my mellow. Like he's gotta be. I hate you, Jeffrey Epstein.
SPEAKER_02Epstein, gisleen.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, piece of shit.
SPEAKER_01So anyway, guys, all of you.
SPEAKER_04We hope you enjoyed this episode. Um, I don't know what's too enjoyed, but I don't know either. Anyway, we hope maybe you learn something. Again, we want to sing the praises of the survivors who came forward. Thank you, thank you, thank you. May because we know this stuff is not gonna stop, and we hope that you've inspired other people to come forward, and we hope that the system changes its fucking tune and starts to believe survivors.
SPEAKER_01And if something's ever happened to you, it's not your fault. Yeah. You're a child therapist.
SPEAKER_04Send us a text. Send Carolyn a text. She's a therapist. Got you. She can help you. We got resources. We got you. All right, everybody. Um, and and you should get us, have our backs too, and follow us on TikTok. That was a sloppy ass segue. Uh follow us on TikTok at Twatch AC. We have quite the community. Yes. Um, yeah, we're on Instagram, we're on YouTube. Well, we're trying to be more YouTube active. We're small but mighty. We are.
SPEAKER_01We're we're we're doing the work, we're trying to do the work. We love doing it. And we love doing the work. I think how many years has it been now? We just celebrated our five thousand the five thousandth episode download. Oh, great.
SPEAKER_04That's awesome. Download it, download, guys, because that's how we track stuff. So download, because I know I'm I'm the worst. Whenever I listen to podcasts, I don't download. Unless I'm going on the plane. Unless I'm going on a plane, I don't download. I just listen to it. Yeah. Oh, we choose to do that. I think downloading is a good metric for people like podcasters. We can see how many people are downloading our shit.
SPEAKER_00But then don't I have to delete it?
SPEAKER_04I don't know. I I I have no I have no room on my phone to even download anything. I am I am the subject of my husband's scrutiny, and it's justified because my phone is a fucking dummy room.
SPEAKER_01You're that person who has like 2,568 tacks, right?
SPEAKER_04I was in the car with Adam yesterday, and he saw my phone mounted on the magnetic thing, and it says like 800 texts. He's like, oh my god, that would drive me crazy. I was like, you and everybody else, apparently. So have a good night, y'all. Have a good weekend. We love you, and uh keep listening. Yay. Bye. Bye.