The World According to Jen & Carolyn
The World According to Jen & Carolyn is a podcast where history, politics, psychology, and humor collide in unexpected yet brilliant ways. Hosted by Jen, a community servant with a sharp wit and a knack for digging up the historical receipts, and Carolyn, a licensed marriage and family therapist who expertly unpacks the psychological layers behind it all, our show offers listeners a smart, hilarious, and refreshingly real conversation between two friends with 25 years of stories and opinions to share.
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The World According to Jen & Carolyn
Immigrants make America Great!
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On this week’s episode, Jen and Carolyn explore the Trump administration’s ongoing attacks on immigrants, both documented and undocumented. We'll examine not only the fear and disruption these enforcement efforts are causing in communities, but also the broader economic consequences of dramatically reducing immigrant labor.
Tax Payments by Undocumented Immigrants – ITEP
ACLU Announces Major Settlement in Family Separation Lawsuit | American Civil Liberties Union
900 migrant children separated from parents despite court order, ACLU says
US: Lasting Harm from Family Separation at the Border | Human Rights Watch
American Immigration Council. (2025). U.S. Citizen Children Impacted by Immigration Enforcement.
Cardoso, J. B., et al. (2021). Anxiety prevalence among Latinx adolescents from immigrant families.
Côté-Olijnyk, M., Perry, J. C., Paré, M-E., & Kronick, R. (2024). The mental health of migrants living in limbo: a mixed-methods systemic review with meta-analysis. Psychiatry Research, 337, 115931.
Dee, T. S., & Murphy, M. (2019). Vanished Classmates: The Effects of Local Immigration Enforcement on School Enrollment. American Educational Research Journal.
Pinedo, M., & Escobar, C. (2024). Childhood parental deportations, immigration enforcement experiences, and posttraumatic stress disorder among US-born Latino adults. American Journal of Public Health, 114(S6), S495–S504.
UCLA Latino Policy & Politics Institute. (2023). The Impact of a Broken Immigration System on U.S. Students and Schools.
Colorado Immigrant Rights Coalition. (2025). Know Your Rights and Rapid Response Networks.
Florida Immigrant Coalition. (2025). Florida Rapid Response Alliance for Immigrant Safety and Empowerment (RAISE).
Human Rights First. (2025). Under Attack: The Sanctity of Sanctuary Cities.
Immigrant Legal Resource Center. (2025). Know Your Rights: Community Resources.
Journal of the Society for Social Work and Research. (2025). Values and Beliefs Underlying Mutual Aid: An Exploration of Collective Care.
NPR. (2025). These churches offer shelter and sanctuary to vulnerable migrants.
Sahan Journal. (2024). Minnesota mutual aid groups prepare as election anxiety builds.
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SPEAKER_01Hello, Carolyn. Hello, Jennifer. How are you this evening? I'm feeling very serious about our topic. Yes, it's been a it's boy, has it been a week.
SPEAKER_00It has been a week. Uh we are definitely feeling the weight of the atmosphere, the political and social atmosphere. And uh it's it's hard to it's hard to avoid it.
SPEAKER_01This is like I keep I I think I need a new word for unprecedented though.
SPEAKER_00Like this has never happened. We've seen dark times in our country. I I am particularly worried about this period in time compared to other dark periods. I try to remind myself, like so many of us recently have been like, oh, George W. Bush by comparison was a dream. And I'm like, ah, he started two wars, two unnecessary wars. And ruined New Orleans. And yes, and ruined New Orleans did not send the support that was needed either prior to or in the aftermath of um disaster capitalism. But we we have a whole episode about that. Check that one out.
SPEAKER_01This is more ridiculously bizarre and like frightening. Yeah, how I have no words.
SPEAKER_00I it I it yeah. Well, people like W and Nixon, whom history, well, history does speak relatively kindly of George W. Bush, which is funny, but not Nixon. Um the the guardrail stayed in place. Like the tenants of our democracy were were still stable, and now it feels like everything is a little crazy. Yeah, it's tenues. It's a little un unhinged. Yeah, it's unhinged. But in in the midst of all of that unhinged shit is one group of people whom the Trump administration is putting a lot of really shitty negative focus on, and that's immigrants, and particularly immigrants from Latin American countries, because Trump has said himself, which was a not even a racist dog whistle, it was just straight up racist. Like, we need more white people from Europe to move here. It's like they don't want to move here, they have good systems. Yeah, they hate you, and their social systems and structures are far superior to ours. Thank you very much. So, on this week's episode, we're gonna explore the Trump administration's ongoing attacks on the immigrant community, both documented and undocumented. We're gonna examine not only fear and disruption these enforcement efforts are causing in these communities, but also the broader economic consequences of dramatically reducing immigrant labor.
SPEAKER_01And and educational. I I'm hearing from so many universities who have international students. Yes, this is like really terrible. It's gonna shut down universities who depend on that funding.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, there's a lot of folks who come here, like international students and folks who come on like H1V visas and stuff. Like when I was at Stanford, there were a ton of postdocs because it's a job in addition to studying, who were from other countries. Yeah. And so, and also people want to come here and study, and that's great, and that's something that should be embraced. And so, I don't know. Yeah, but there's a lot of bullshit being purported by the Trump administration and fellow racists about the immigrant community. Uh, you know, you've heard all the bullshit. They're freeloaders, they're criminals, they're stealing our jobs, you know, the jobs that Americans really want. Everybody's clamoring to work in vineyards, picking grapes in 100-degree weather. Yeah. Let's see how quickly white Americans line up for those jobs. So, by and large, everything that's being purported right now in regard to these communities is absolute bullshit. Carolyn, can you estimate how much in taxes undocumented immigrants actually pay? It's gotta be over half of what we get in. There's such a large part of the workforce. It's not quite that much, but it's a lot. Okay. So undocumented immigrants in the U.S. paid an estimated 96.7 billion in taxes in 2022. This is a combination of federal, state, and local taxes. This comes from common dreams. So of that, 59.4 billion, or of that, about 59.4 billion went to federal government, 37.3 billion to state and local governments. That's a lot of money. Yeah. Um, and I know our governor genuinely cares about this community, but also this is California. We have a lot of agriculture here. We have a lot of undocumented folks working. So it is a big component of our economy as well. So, Carolyn, you know how many violent crimes in the U.S. can actually be attributed to undocumented folks? Probably very few. Here's some stats that I found. A major Texas study from 2022 between 20, I'm sorry, 2012 and 2018 found that undocumented immigrants had substantially lower crime rates than U.S. born citizens and legal immigrants for a variety of felony offenses. U.S. born citizens were two times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than undocumented immigrants. For drug crimes alone, U.S. born citizens, two and a half times more likely. For property crimes, four times more likely. So that should give you a sense and our listeners a sense who probably already knew how few crimes, particularly major and violent crimes, are committed by the undocumented community. And the story, the facts and the stories don't line up. No, of course not. You have to have a scapegoat. Yeah. And it's absolutely ridiculous. And clearly Trump gives no shits about the actual economy. Look at all the tariff bullshit and what that's done and the shit shape our economy is in. So why not take it down further?
SPEAKER_01I think they just believe the sheep will believe what they're hearing on these because whenever I engage in discourse with people, they just say these types of state these stories. Yeah. And then when you stupidly try and actually engage in fact, you get that what we talk about, where it's like, well, they just want you to believe that. Well, that's like me.
SPEAKER_00Like the USAS Bureau. Right, exactly. The Bureau of Labor Statistics, like these are not supposed to be um uh what do you call it, bipartisan uh institutions or partisan institutions? Like these are it's facts, yeah. Spitting facts. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it kind of like it also makes sense too. Like, it why would you if if you are worried about getting caught for something, why would you engage right?
SPEAKER_00You don't want to be deported, and also it has the effect of undocumented folks not reporting crimes in the community. So when the authorities and and there's stats, tons of stats on this, when the authorities come knocking and they're like, hey, somebody got shot, did you see? They're like, I didn't see anything because they don't want to engage, and I can't claim them. So they can't even do like their civic duty around helping to support a you know a safe community in that sense because they're afraid to come forward. Right. So it's it's bad for a lot of reasons. So there was another study in Texas that found that undocumented immigrants were roughly half as likely to be arrested for homicide, balonious assault, or sexual assault compared to native-born citizens. I was so mad. I was listening to um one of my podcasts, my True Crime podcast. It was probably Dateline, and they decided to focus on this undocumented immigrant raping and killing this young woman. I'm like, no, no, no, it's not the time, dateline. Like, yeah, first of all, it represents such a small segment of the population, as I just gave you the stats on. And also, like, come on, man. But again, look who's running the FCC. Right. Who the fuck knows? Anyway, so what kind of galvanized uh me, you, and I wanting to do an episode on this is not only how much we care about our undocumented friends and neighbors, but I read this great article in Vanity Fair about undocumented folks in the Hamptons being scared. And the piece highlights what undocumented communities across the country are fearing and facing. But there's a huge undocumented population there. They don't only work in the service industry, they are they are the service industry. They're the backbone, but they also own restaurants, like long-standing restaurants that have been there for decades that people absolutely love. And as much as I wanted to blame Republicans for this, I looked at the voting registration in the Hamptons and it's pretty split. Oh, okay. There are a lot, they're actually, I think, if I remember correctly, and the Hamptons is comprised of like three different counties or something. And I think there are slightly more Democrats, which makes sense. It's a bunch of New Yorkers on vacation. Oh, totally, yeah. So you can't blame the Republicans for this one. Um, it's not like they voted for Trump and they're like, but wait, all our undocumented labor. No, they were probably supportive of these people when they get it. Well, that's what they're worried about. Oh so they're they're incredibly concerned. And I'll I'll get into it more. So the narration, oh sorry, the it paints a picture, this article, of you know, summer on Long Island, booming businesses, restaurants are full, landscapers are busy. Think of all the landscapers. 75 to 80 percent of the workforce is Latino. Many of them are undocumented. That's a huge percentage of the workforce. It's a quote from a restaurant owner: they literally hold the keys. They do. Um, workers are avoiding things like driving at night. Out of fear, rumors of raids are spreading on social media. People are afraid to go to work. Um, the article also centered on this woman named Lady Peralta. She's from Ecuador, she's been in Long Island forever. She works at a spa, she's raising her daughter. She is facing deportation despite ties to the community. She does nails for like wealthy celebrities. She's so good. She had another job to begin with and was doing nails on the side. And the salon was like, You're so good, we're gonna keep you. So she gets paid really well. Yeah, she has a craft, yeah, and she's she can't even move forward with the documentation process because they would just deport her. Well, and that's the hard yeah, I won't even go there. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just it's bonkers to me.
SPEAKER_01Two of my very dear friends are hardworking, very intelligent contributors to that tax bracket, right? Yeah, couldn't get their like waited almost 10 years to try and get their citizenship. Yeah. It's it's I don't know if that's like that's a whole nother. It's incredible.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna get into it because there are so many people who are like, they should do it the legal way. We're gonna talk about how fraught with with challenges, how expensive it is, how you typically need a lawyer to navigate the system. There are too few lawyers, especially those who are able to work pro bono. This is a community that I have spent a lot of time working with. And a lot, there's a lot of scamming going on with these lawyers. Yeah, too. Yeah, it's bad. It's really bad. It's like wherever you turn, you're getting fucked. So here's the economic reality of the situation. Undocumented immigrants in the US, like I said, $96.7 billion in taxes in 2022. So payroll and social insurance contributions. Excuse me, I'm like burping up dinner. It's disgusting. So they paid 20. Money's only coming out of your mouth. Yes. It's not, it's not. Oh my God, we said this lunch lady when I was in grammar school, she would like serve us sloppy jazz and shit, and she'd burp, and she'd be like, it'd be a lot worse if it came out the other end. And we're like, whoa, that's like Adam Sandler-style lunch lady shit. I still remember what she looked like. It was that impactful for me. Anyway, anyway, undocumented folks, they paid $25.7 billion to so in Social Security taxes, $6.4 billion to Medicare taxes, $1.8 billion to unemployment insurance taxes. I believe all these stats are tied to 2022, but this is like generally what happens. These programs, uh, most undocumented, uh, these are programs most undocumented immigrants are not even eligible to access despite paying into them. So we are benefiting from their contributions directly. Tax burden per person and tax rate. On average, undocumented immigrants paid about $8,889 per person in taxes in 2022 across all levels. In California, here we go: $8.5 billion from undocumented immigrants in state and local taxes alone in 2022. States with more than $1 billion each in tax contributions. We have obviously California, Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, and New Jersey. Those are the big ones. Interesting. So if undocumented immigrants had work authorization, estimates are that additional tax revenue could increase by $40 to $137 billion a year, depending on the level of legalization and compliance. About one in 10 U.S. workers is an immigrant. Nearly 2 million immigrant entrepreneurs own businesses employing millions of Americans because you can own a business and not be documented. You cannot get a job, but you can own a business. That's why entrepreneurship and cooperatives are such a hot topic right now in workforce and economic development. Oh, interesting. You would know that. I would know that. Yes. So uh not saying it's a strategy that we're using. No, we don't do that. Um, so in some industries like agriculture, construction, and hospitality, immigrant labor makes up over 50% of the workforce. So, you know, they contribute billions, yet they face heightened enforcement and instability. So, as I mentioned, families are afraid. Yeah. Uh parents are deported while their U.S. citizen children remain behind. They're forced to either leave and leave their kids behind or take their kids to a country that they have absolutely no familiarity with. These are American kids. So, you know, there's thousands of kids' cases in limbo at the special immigrant juvenile level, is what it's called. So there's uh an immigration lawyer, I wanted to quote her, Sandra Melendez. She said they're playing with people's minds and hearts. They have no feelings. It's really sad.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, it's so sad.
SPEAKER_00It really upsets me. Like, there's a story I read during Trump 1.0 where they were separating children from parents, which they're still doing. Yes. And like this two-year-old, unaccompanied two-year-old, and they put him in one of these cages with another child who was like nine, who was taking care of him. Kid was filthy, covered in piss. Like at the time, my kid was around that age, and I was just like, I couldn't imagine. And we're seeing that. And there are still people out there who are like, well, that's the parents' fault for coming here illegally. And I'm like, wow, you're a heartless cunt. Yeah. Like you're a terrible fucking person. And that's a human being. That's a human being. And they clearly don't understand the history in terms of how much the U.S. has fucked with Latin America and why a lot of these people are fleeing because of our intervention. We did an episode on it. I'm going to reference it later. So, you know, thousands of children and their parents were forcefully, forcefully separated under the Trump Zero Zero Tolerance Policy. This is from the ACLU. Families were torn apart. Children were sent to distant shelters. Parents often didn't know where their children were. Oh, as a parent, this just fucks me up so bad. There's um, I can't remember which Michael Moore documentary it was, but they show this image and it stuck with me. And I I wish to God I could unsee it. But it's like people getting off the train to go into one of the camps during concentration. Yeah. And they take the parent, the mom away, and this German soldier, just heartless, is like the kid is keeps trying to go toward the mom, and he's like pushing him away with the butt of the gun. Like, I wish I could unsee that. But like, how could people be that cruel?
SPEAKER_01I don't, I don't know what I'm missing.
SPEAKER_00That part of me thinking I think we need to go back and do another episode on this. Like, we did cover like the um Stanford Prison experiment, and we covered obviously Milgram stuff, right? Which talks about, you know, uh people in authority telling you to do certain things and you just following orders. I mean, obviously Nuremberg. But I think we really need to go back to that because for people like us, it's really hard to wrap our minds around how human beings could behave like that. Yeah. I don't know how you can treat an animal that way, let alone a human. I know, and a lot, it's so fucked up to me, but a lot of the people who are like, fuck them, have like they give money to animal shelters and shit. And like it's nuts. So the A ACL report ACLU reported more than 900 migrant children were separated after a 2018 court order, prohibited separations except under special circumstances, such as danger or if parent is unfit. That's from CBS News. So Human Rights Watch, Texas Civil Rights Project, and Yale Law School reported about 1,360 children still have never been reunited with their parents six years after separations that occurred through 2017 and 2018.
SPEAKER_01I can't, I can't imagine.
SPEAKER_00It's disgusting. Not knowing where your kids are, like these poor parents, these poor children. So, Carolyn, I think this goes without saying, but how significant do you think the emotional impact of these policies is on children growing up in communities affected by enforcement? Again, I think this one's pretty obvious, but people people might want to hear the stats and studies that underscore the trauma.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's it's absolutely devastating. And, you know, I want to ground what I'm about to share that this is current research because you and I actually believe in science. Yeah. And, you know, I'm drawing from studies published this year and last year. So 2024, 2025, including the American Immigration Council, UCLA's Latino Policy Institute, and recent meta-analyses. That's where they take all the research and and analyze it on immigration trauma. And these are published in major journals like Psychiatry Research and Journal of American Public Health. So the trauma's obvious. Trauma is something that happens, it's an event. This is they we're gonna have to come up with a new this is beyond even CPTSD. This is just inhumane and cruel. Yeah. Um, and the numbers help us understand the scale that we're dealing with. And we're both gonna have to try not to get emotional. We're the clumped a lot in this episode. Um so all right, so we've got one third of asylum seeker, asylum seekers. These are like, let's wrap our head around what that is. That means that you are being like Congo, uh, you know, in in areas where you will be killed or raped, right, and you're coming somewhere to seek safety. Yeah. Uh und and undocumented migrants experience PTSD, over one third have anxiety and half experience depression. That's like so, so just duh uh about this, and not even like, I don't even think to the level that that would make someone averagely go into therapy, right? But what's really striking here is that 64% of Latino adolescents from immigrant families suffer from these disorders, nine times higher than the average adolescent population. Um, gonna name it too, in case if you're if you're not watching us, you're listening, privileged white woman over here. I want to be clear you and I are never here to pathologize immigrants or use these statistics to say that any community, it this is something that's being experienced, and it's not everyone. There, you're your own expert, right? But we have to understand how these physiological responses impact the individual and the community, and the greater there's a ripple, right?
SPEAKER_00And these studies were conducted by probably people from the community or who work directly with the community and were just repeating their findings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But here's what's the most important part if you are not in that community and you are working with this population, this is why we have to recognize this because what we're seeing as quote, behavioral problems are really adaptive survival mechanisms. Right. And so polyvagal theory, that's something I'm I've studied quite a bit, is the premise that human beings are innately need safety to have biological and we have biological systems devoted to fiercely avoiding harm. That's just if you're human. Um, so from that polyvagal perspective, these children's nerve and their parents, their nervous systems are doing exactly what they're designed to do. When your environment is genuinely unsafe, when ice raids happen, when your parents disappear, your nervous system goes into hypervigilance mode. The research shows that these children are constantly monitoring for threat, constantly taking away from their ability to play. Yeah, it's just a lot of people. Kids deserve to play and be social and have fun and learn and do dumb shit. Yeah. Um, so they're constantly monitoring monitoring for threat. So it's changing their cognitive ability, their resourcing. Yeah. And their learning and development is is gonna suffer. Yeah. And it's gonna impact that community's ability to replicate and thrive. Yeah. And this is this isn't dysfunction.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's actually their intelligence and adaptation. Yeah. And this is the other thing. They're they're they're they're evolving faster because they're having to deal with this hypervigilance and still survive. Right. Um, but here's what's particularly heartbreaking the trauma doesn't just stay contained. You and I know this. We've taught this about to to people, but maybe other people don't know this. We're seeing community wide nervous system dysregulation after the 2018 Tennessee race. Over 500 students were absent from school the next day. And ICE partnerships reduced Hispanic student enrollment by 10% within two years. You know that's over 300,000 children displaced.
SPEAKER_00That's so great. I don't know if they've done it yet, but I know SFUSD is considering doing a Zoom option again for kids who are afraid to come to school.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't, I think that's lovely harm reduction. Yeah. Um, and thank you for bringing that up. It's a great segue. Systemically, teachers are reporting their own vicarious trauma and heightened anxiety. Nearly half of educators observed increased bullying of immigrant students. The entire school ecosystem has become dysregulated because trauma is contagious. And it's also, I hate saying this, but it's also kind of kind of healing. And that's what, which is why we're talking about this. And I'll explain what I mean by that. So um Jungian perspective, which I also love, Carl Jung was a psychologist who explored how we project our unconscious fears and unprocessed emotions onto others. He's kind of thinking of him as the other side of Freud. Yeah. Um, but I like it much more. Um most people do. Most people do, yeah. Um, so we need to ask ourselves, what does our collective fear of immigrants reveal about us? Yeah. And I'm and when I say us, I mean all of all of them, you know, that that we are a species that survives and and we're strong in story. Yeah. And I think whether you're on the right side or the wrong side of that, your whatever you're hearing becomes fact. Yeah. And, you know, uh sorry, I lost my place. Um yeah, what does this reveal about this? This is this is a really fascinating contradiction because we're simultaneously exploiting immigrants for labor and then resent what they represent. And many come from cultures with very strong collectivist values and extended family care and community, mutual aid, and shared resources. So American capitalism and individualism says, you know, pull up your by your bootstraps and you work hard and like all these folks do. It's all they do, exactly. And they maintain their community bonds, bonds. And frankly, many of us, we have lost that community bond. White people don't know the concept of aunties and uncles. Well, not to the extent that I think other collectivist cultures do.
SPEAKER_00Like, it had to happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Your community, you you may not have a parent the next day. Yeah. So enslaved cultures are used to having the whole, you're everyone's your mommy, your auntie and your uncle. Right. Everyone's your mom.
SPEAKER_00Yep. And sorry, interrupt. No, that's how it is in my house, too. But I was gonna say, like, look at look to your right and to your left in my neighborhood. These are multi-generational households, and it's beautiful. And everybody has a role. Next, next door, Grandma Gardens, she keeps an incredible garden. She takes care of the chickens. Like the the young boys go to work every day, and like, you know, there's it's just it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Well, the whole the whole family survives because of the community. Yeah, and it's a different way that is actually, we know from research, having these intergenerational relationships, you take pride and everyone contributes. Yeah, that actually makes for better kids.
SPEAKER_00And this is what's so fucked up right now is that community is absolutely imperative for all of us. Yes. And if you are afraid to congregate because you're worried about being taken away, that fucks with your ability to create these necessary human bonds that we all need so now more than ever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Again, perfect segue, Jen. I ain't even reading it. So I think I I do think that there behind all of this shit is fear. Yes. It's fear versus you know, we you continue to buy into the story because other you you the alternative would be you'd have to choose something else. Right. And so you need a new scapegoat. Well, exactly. But you know what? There doesn't need to be a scapegoat. I know. It really doesn't. That's how human beings have for forever. This type of society. Yes, collectivist societies, not so much, right? Yeah. Um, I'll but I wasn't there, so I don't know. But um, you know, again, there's a lot of what we call shadow projection happening. We're afraid of what these communities will actually teach us and what we're missing in our own lives that we're actually really sad about. Yeah. Um, but I don't, I don't think you can directly make that that point to someone in MAGA. No. Um so yeah, so from for building community resistance resilience, this is where, and I hate again, sorry for using the term excited, um, but this is where I think it is exciting to look at an immigrant community because they're already experts. They know that there isn't there isn't need to be a word for that. It's it's there is no individual grant. You're just sustained by these practices around food and music and culture and dance and and all the things. So um I also love stoicism, which is an ancient philosophy that focuses on accepting what we can't control while taking action on what we can. Um and when we focus what's in our control versus not, immigrant families, none of us can control these ice rates for the most part, right? Um, although we can create safety through ritual. And the know your rights campaign has been a nervous system co-regulator, basically. When you saw the minute all this shit happening, you saw on social media, you saw everywhere. Here's what you do, here's what you spend. I put those cards in my wallet at all times in English and Spanish. And teaching people and being an what being an ally actually means is you're gonna have to put yourself between these people physically. Exactly. Yep. And so research shows that communities are already doing this work, English classes, libraries, restaurants, um, closing protests of raids, churches offering sanctuary. Um, these aren't just nice gestures, they're literally helping regulate the collective nervous system. So know that if you're doing that work, you're helping know if if you're needing to feel active and like some you're making an agent of chain, go support that. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Here's what I want our listeners to understand. When we see children having trouble in school after their parent is detained, it's not a mental health problem. In fact, and I and I'll say this for the trans community too, we're pushing people to their limits. And then when they break down and explode, that's not them proving your point. Yes, right? That's them having a normal response to an abnormal doesn't even cover it. This is the problem isn't their nervous system, it is the system that created the threat. And we have to stop asking what's wrong with these people, right? What's wrong with these kids, and start asking what happened to them, and more importantly, what systems are causing this ongoing harm? Because you and I are beyond this podcast, and I think you and I could just sit here and we would talk be talking about this anyway. Right. We just would like this is our first thing. These are the things we care about. These are the things we care about. But I'm I I want to speak to the people who have proximity to power. We're not swooping in to save people. No, we're not trying to, you know, volunteering is not a the byproduct is you're gonna feel better. That is for sure. Right. But it's about supporting and protecting community-led healing that's already happening. And it looks like supporting immigrant-owned businesses and showing up to these know your rights and having that information and knowing these workshops and pushing for policies that recognize the humanity we contribute and voting for those policies. Yeah. But fundamentally, it's recognizing this isn't an immigrant issue, this isn't a trans issue, this isn't a this isn't a black person's issue. Right. This is about about revealing something about our our collective pain and our shadow work that it the more we keep othering people, it's a it inherently is gonna become you.
SPEAKER_00Right. There's just no way. We've learned nothing from, well, not all of us, but many of us have learned nothing from history in that poem that we reference all the time. First they came for the Jews, and you know, we know how it ends. Then they came for me, and there was nobody to stand up for me. And I think that I know that folks in the MAGA movement have a very distorted view of who they are within the construct of these systems of power. They're nothing. Yes, they're nothing, and they are perceived as nothing by the people in power. Yet, and this is again the brilliance of slavery, it's oh, white folks and black folks, like who are currently enduring some sort of slave system, whether it be indentured servitude or like straight up slavery, like you can't get together and work together. Oh, white folks, we're gonna not only give you some land, we're gonna give you a philosophy that you are superior. Yep. And that is still being perpetuated. And people think this is bullshit and academic nonsense and that we don't know what the fuck we're talking about. It's because they've never delved, or frankly, don't have the intellect to be able to delve into these systems. And I'm tired of acting like being intelligent is something that we need to be ashamed of. Right. I am so fucking tired of this. I am so tired of this this uh notion, this philosophy uh um of oh, the Democrats that we are to an extent out of touch, not we, but the Democrats in power. Yeah, yes. But it isn't because we're educated, and and it isn't because it this is what frustrates me so much as a woman and as a first generation high school and college student. I know I'm going off on a job, but I am so tired of this this this rhetoric around, oh, you need to essentially dumb yourself down, use fewer syllables, rely less on facts and statistics. I'm sorry, fuck that shit. Yeah I understand from a connection perspective. This might not be how you reach people here. I'm rocking back and forth. This is what drives my husband fucking crazy. I'm like, why does it sound like I'm going in and out? He's like, your mic technique is garbage. And he's like, shut up, don't try to tell me how to act. I'm a I'm an educated woman. But I'm so tired of that. And that's why I take so much pride in our show and the research that we do, because it matters. Yes, it matters, and it's so unfortunate that there's a large swath of our population in this country who think that schooling is fucking unnecessary, overrated. Like it drives me insane.
SPEAKER_01But that's part of that's part of the the authoritarian playbook, isn't it? Yeah. The first place you go is to the is to the uh always and the academics. And they're I do feel that the generation is being brought up. I mean, they think we're doing revisionist history, but people, you know, when you're talking about taking away photos of slaves with with whip trauma, yeah, and saying, oh, that that's that's uh, you know, again, that's what I'm saying. You're changing the story. Yeah, people don't believe facts, they believe the story we tell ourselves.
SPEAKER_00Right. And that we tell each other. Yes. And that people in authority tell us because we are trained by and large to obey authority.
SPEAKER_01Be punk rock.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Don't obey authority. I love it. So let's talk about why people flee, because we went off on a little tangent. So we talked about this extensively in one of our episodes. I think it was about uh Latin America. I think it was the CIA one. It was the CIA in Latin America. Okay. So we talked extensively about this in that episode, and we definitely encourage you to listen if you haven't already.
SPEAKER_01There's been so many. There have. Wait, do you go back and listen to our old old show? No, I want to. Our audio is even worse.
SPEAKER_00I have an idea for it. We're gonna it's very different than this. I think I think people, our listeners, need some levity. And so we need to go back to our roots and start doing some like bad dating episodes, maybe revisiting. Can you imagine dating now? No, no, thank you. Anyway, so U.S. intervention in Latin America was a huge point of academic focus for me in both my undergrad and my grad program. And as I've mentioned before, my ex-husband and his family were refugees from Guatemala who got amnesty under Reagan. So, and what happened in Guatemala in 1954? It was the second coup that the CIA orchestrated. The first was a Shah of Iran, but in 1954, the CIA backed a coup in Guatemala that destabilized the region. Anyway, I'm not gonna go into the history. Go back and listen to the episode. Listen to the episode, not only about what the CIA did in Latin America, but also what NAFTA has done and how that has contributed to outmigration from Latin America, from Mexico in particular. Many countries. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, so this is for, I want to talk about this because this is really important. Again, I mentioned this at the beginning of the episode. Now I'm gonna delve into the facts. So this is for the folks who say, why don't these people do it the legal way? So here's the cost. So there's an application fee for a form that's called the N400. Standard fee is about $640. That's a lot of money. A lot of money. Uh, mandatory biometrics fee. I think it's like a health assessment thing, $85. So that's a total of $725. This is this is from uh 2025, unless eligible for a waiver or a reduction. Fee waivers are available for certain low-income applicants, legal assistants. Many people hire immigration attorneys to avoid mistakes. Typical legal fees are from $1,000 to $3,000, depending on the complexity of the case. Nonprofit or community organizations sometimes provide this help. They do definitely provide this help, but they are all strapped. Oh, I have compared to that. They are all strapped. I'm familiar with the majority of the organizations that provide this support in San Francisco, and they have too few lawyers to be able to provide the support needed for the community. So there's other costs too. Document gatherings, so translators, travel to obtain foreign records, English or civics classes sometimes are free. CCSF has classes, but other sometimes there's several hundred dollars. Um, and during this was a big issue for a lot of organizations that provide um vessel, which is vocational English as a second language, or just English as a second language in general, is during COVID, those classes were either cut, at least here in San Francisco, or became few and far in between. And so, you know, there's all of these other fees that need to be factored in. And when you're when you're living hand to mouth and doing labor that other folks that United States citizens don't want to do, and you're doing what's called black market labor, you can't afford these things. You just can't. So, you know, there's procedural challenges too. So the eligibility requirements, you must be a lawful permanent resident, a green card holder for five years, most applicants, or three years if married to a U.S. citizen. Continuous residence and physical presence requirements. You must show good moral character, no disqualifying criminal record, tax compliance. That's become even more complicated with the Trump administration because now you have to show that you're I don't even remember what the the test, the litmus test is, but it's some bullshit.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'd even like to see you and I probably I probably could even pass a civics exam if I took one.
SPEAKER_00I probably could since I work in government, but you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Like, I mean, these people who are like make America great and love it or illegal, they couldn't. I would love to see they love their fucking poetry so much.
SPEAKER_00This is what we've done time and time again. Like the the um the poll taxes for black folks after slavery ended, and and uh there were there were tests that were administered too. There were all sorts of things to try to keep people from the franchise, from the vote that they were legally entitled to. So you have to demonstrate English proficiency English proficiency. That's ironic. Clearly, I can't speak. I spent the week speaking and I am tired. Yeah. Um so English proficient proficiency, passing a civics test. Some exemptions exist for older applicants with long U.S. residency. There's lengthy wait times. It's typically six to 18 months or could be longer. Backlogs and staffing shortages. Any errors or missing documents can reset the timeline totally. This is why it's really hard. Folks I know that work in this field or work with this community are like, it is virtually impossible to do this without an attorney. Yeah. And as I said, there's too few pro bono attorneys to be able to assist everybody who needs assistance. There's interviews and oaths. An applicant attends an in-person interview with a US CIS officer. Final step is the oath of allegiance or ceremony, which is actually a beautiful thing. I remember um my ex-husband did it uh pretty much immediately prior to him and I getting together. But anyway, so you know, there's personal or social challenges. Right now, there's fear of denial or deportation. So people are showing up, they're like on the docket to get uh documented and they're going through the process and they're being deported. Yes. So the financial strain I mentioned, that language barriers, employment and family responsibility, taking time off work. You know, you already have, you're probably already working in a place where you don't have any rights or you have minimal rights because you are undocumented. No OSHA. There's no OSHA. You don't have health insurance. You don't have health insurance, you don't have benefits. So, you know, this is an incredibly stressful process. And there's also, bless you. Sorry, in short, becoming a U.S. citizen requires significant financial resources, navigating complex eligibility requirements, passing language and civics exams, and enduring long wait times. It's really hard. So immigration has long been weaponized politically. So it's just, it's become nuts. Uh, you know, again, going back to the Hamptons article, there's a guy who was quoted, he's an artist. He says, These people worked hard, been humble, selfless, brave. To me, those are aspirational human qualities. Yes. And that's the majority of folks who are here undocumented working, just trying to raise their families, just trying to make a living. But the communities are resisting and it's beautiful to see. So there's the grassroots stuff that's happening. English classes at local library, small businesses protecting workers, churches offering sanctuary, you know, restaurant owners considering closing and protests of raids. Uh, you know, there's a broader network of uh, you know, this place called the Eastern Long Island Immigration OLA. It's like Dutch East Indian Company. Something like that. Not really. But uh no, that was colonialism.
SPEAKER_01I just I always loved that name. I don't know why.
SPEAKER_00But not the colonial aspect.
SPEAKER_01No, I just thought that sounded cool. Like Dutch East India Company. That's a great name.
SPEAKER_00So there's lots of immigration law centers, you know, Catholic charities, um, though they're on the naughty list in San Francisco because they're not living up to their contractual obligations under the union to pay their workers $25 an hour. Go SCIU. Anyway, but there's a lot of organizations who are doing the work. And despite fear, immigrants and their allies are organizing, insisting that dignity and humanity become come before politics. So, Carolyn, how can communities build resilience against fear, stigma, and uncertainty created by the politic politicization? I give up of immigration. I know. Politicization. I can't speak anymore. Fridays are hard. I've been speaking all week. It's just been a week. I think we all can agree at that time. If you speak in front of 150-ish people, I'm tired. Yeah. I'm really tired. Jen blew her load at that. I blew my load. I had to actually kind of know what I was saying, though, at throughout the entirety, I felt like a moron. But I'm sure you didn't.
SPEAKER_01It went well. Anyway, great speaker. Answer my question. All right. Well, I'm gonna change that. The question isn't how do we build resilience? The question is how do we support and learn from the survival strategies being developed by communities most under attack. That's better. Again, take out the white savior shit.
SPEAKER_00I like it.
SPEAKER_01I like it. I'm trying. I'm trying. Um so because there's a real uh that there's there has to be real understanding about what's actually happening. Yeah. And it's not gonna happen in the individual therapy office. Sorry. It's not gonna happen necessarily in community centers, but it's in community centers and church basements and rapid response training sessions in in government and in places where people are actually fighting and protesting and advocating to help people stay connected to each other despite the systems that are really designed to tear them apart, literally tearing children from families. Something you would think we all could agree is not good until it happens to a white person, then we'll agree. Right. Um, so new analysis shows that immigrant communities are demonstrating what real resilience actually uh it's survival. Yeah. Let's just call it what it is, um, looks like, and the opposite, it's the opposite of that bootstrap bullshit narrative. Let's be clear, they shouldn't have to be fucking resilient. Yeah. Um, it's survival and it's under extremely harmful and hateful conditions.
SPEAKER_00They're already demonstrating resilience in a well, not always a positive way, but like by coming to a country where you don't speak the language and where you're willing to work harder than most American citizens to care for your family and take care of your family and usually fleeing some really traumatic circumstances in your home country. Most people want to stay in their home countries. That's what statistics demonstrate. It's gonna be a really shitty situation caused by the US. Yes, or you know, at least we contributed to it that makes you want to flee your home country.
SPEAKER_01Well, and how do you don't don't apologize because you don't speak English? I'm sorry, I don't speak Spanish. Lo siento. Like I only speak one fucking language and fucking French. Like that helps no one. Um sorry, French immigrant community. It's such a beautiful language, but yes, I'll be there. I can't even say that in French. I don't even know French that well. Anyway, uh strategic. So, okay, let me talk about a couple things. So you you covered some of this. So strategic community response. So communities, again, I said we can't control these ice raids. We're we're we're trying as hard as we could with policy changes. But you know, we have to just respond collectively when it happens. So Rapid Response Network look like Florida's Rapid Response Alliance and Colorado's network are creating nervous system co-regulation on a community scale. So again, it's not just practical, it's actually helping an entire community understand, like I mentioned, the know your rights cards and their own language, practice responses to ice rates, uh, their bodies, you know, just again practicing this stuff so it's in your body. But we've seen them, I mean, got it, it just blows my mind the amount of things that are happening. Like we saw who was the lawmaker that uh they iced detained.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I can't remember. But yeah, there have been several lawmakers who have attempted to go to these facilities. Yeah, and either have been not let in or have been detained themselves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so yes, you know, all right, so sanctuary sanctuary healing. Oh, that was I think that was Alex Padilla. That was our own very own senator, Alex Padilla. Yes, yes, and didn't some didn't the union uh wasn't there someone in San Francisco too who Oh oh he was an S one of the SCIU leaders, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, he was out there in observance of ICE and they took him down. And he's he's a legal, he's here legally. I think he was born and raised here. I can't remember correctly, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01So what are you to I mean how can you tell someone who's an immigrant to have their rights on people who are supposed to have their rights? And some of these people aren't even well, and this is even more fucked up thing that's kind of on here in my level. There's fucking dudes dressing up like ice and just kidnapping people, fucking weird ass rapey people like us.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's the problem with allowing people to go around in masks with their entire fucking face covered. Like that's some scary shit, dude. We had people pretending to be, oh no, I'm sorry, they weren't pretending to be ice. This was before they were pretending to be doge. They put on like fucking doge outfits and went to City Hall. I forgot about that, but still, same shit, right? Dressing up and pretending to be a person in authority, bullshit authority, but authority nonetheless.
SPEAKER_01Um, so we have in 2025 uh sensitive location protections, congregations like St. Andrew's Presbyterian, housing families, creating true sanctuaries where systems fail them, sanctuary cities like San Francisco policy, they're not, they're exercises in collective nervous system regulation. And when law enforcement also refuses to collaborate with ICE, when schools post warrant requirement signs, when libraries offer English classes, it's it's no different than putting a purple triangle outside of something. It it creates that feeling of, okay, at least the people in here are here to help me. Right. Mutual aid is resistance. Research shows that mutual aid is inherently anti-fascist because when it reminds us we can care for each other without depending on systems, actively harming us. And when communities organize food distribution, childcare networks for parents who are in court, restaurants consider closing and protest, collective trauma response communities saying basically we will not let the system isolate you and ostracize you. So there's there's the Mr. Rogers, like, look for the people who are who are trying to help us, right? Against without being white savers. Um just are helpers can be anybody. Yes, they can. Um, reframing resilience. So yeah, we need to reframe this concept that the dominant culture promotes individual resilience. How much trauma can you absorb, though, until you can't function? And indigenous and immigrant communities know that actually it comes from I am because we are. Yeah. And I again, like that just works. Anywhere I've ever worked, that's how we, that's how we roll. Yeah. Like that's kibbutzia of me. Like we just grew up being, actually, I wasn't grown up to top one. My mother taught us that. But um, my father was very much like, no, you look out for yourself and look for yourself and don't trust anyone and don't help anyone. But you know, it it's so important to question and look at the story you're telling yourself and really say, like, where does that actually come from? Does that come from fact and whose facts does it come from? And what else is out there? And how can you support immigrant communities and really any human at this point, and yourself included? Yeah. Um showing up also not as oh, poor victims. Like, no, that we're all fucking in this together.
SPEAKER_00It's like us against them, but yeah, some of us are in far worse, worse circumstances, but we are all we're all being fucked in one way or another. I some more.
SPEAKER_01This would be the best time for aliens to come, just take us all out. Well, kind of like give us something else to kind of like we are we need a common enemy. We need a common enemy fellow that isn't a fellow human that is not a MAGA person. So, anyway, so the work isn't just about protecting all communities that are vulnerable, it's about teaching all of us about alternative systems that actually try and divide us and where safety is accessible and belonging is not conditional, and care follows, care flows in multiple directions. It's gonna, it's gonna help everyone. Yeah, there's no way it won't help you challenge these systems. They are built on division and extraction. And, you know, again, I it's fearful. There's no way you're not afraid. I'm not saying you can't have that. That's you're normal and healthy, but this is the necessity of hotlines and family preparedness packets and churches offering. We all need to be ready. Like, I'm I what did one of our YouTubers say, like scare tactics much? Yeah, like scare not scared. You're not scared. I you know, I'd love to go back to some of the the people who wrote on to me on Facebook and be like, well, I'm just trying to think on the good side. Like, how you how you feeling now? Right?
SPEAKER_00How you doing? It's important to try to maintain a positive like perspective. And at the same time, that doesn't mean not in not engaging in discourse that takes into consideration how fucked up things are. Yeah. And and it doesn't mean going after the people who are sounding the alarm. We need us, you know, people like us who are sounding the alarm. And maybe for people who aren't necessarily immersed in this, you know, like we're seeing it here. We live in California. It's far worse than like LA, for instance, what we're talking about right now, ice raids, etc. But it's still happening here, you know, and and to call these things. Yeah, to call these things out isn't like unnecessarily amplifying fear or or like false fear. Like, it's just trying to draw attention to these very real circumstances. Like, whatever. If you want to put your head in the sand and if you want to believe that you're not personally impacted by this shit as well, even though your skin might be white instead of brown, then you're fucking delusional. What'd you say? You're like, okay, Serena Joy. Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's exactly it. Uh Charlie Kirk's wife, Jesus Christ. Um, yeah, but you know, to think, and and her too. I mean, she's a white woman that's completely insulated by MAGA, so there's privilege there. They don't like you. You cannot take over on behalf of your husband because the system that you are so entrenched in and believe so wholeheartedly in does not embrace you as a leader. That's it. You are uh an appendage of a man. Well, not anymore, but we won't get to see a man. I don't know. I don't like the motherfucker. Nobody look, we'll take this time to again say we do not believe in political violence. No one should be assassinated like that. We absolutely are against what happened to this motherfucker. And at the same time, you can also, this is the this is the complexity of thought and and and critical thinking. Like it's not black and white. We can say this person was a piece of absolute shit in life and simultaneously did not deserve to be assassinated right in the public square for having an opinion, shitty opinions, right, galvanizing fucking violence, yeah, promoting hate speech, yeah, but at the same time, uh the first amendment, unfortun not unfortunately, but the first amendment applies to everyone, including Charlie Kirk, and he should not have been assassinated for promoting his beliefs, however wrong they were. Right. But we can still at the end of the day say not only were his words toxic, but they were harmful. They resulted in harm for people. Right. And that's really problematic.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's why that that idea of I I I I can't turn my other cheek to that because his life or my life. Yeah. You were you were speaking out against people we love, right? People that I would right, like this is where it gets complicated.
SPEAKER_00It does get complicated. And here's the thing I would never tell a person from the community, from a community that he was actively punching down on that, oh, you have to have empathy. I'm not gonna tell you how to have a lot of people. No, no, no. Like I've told people, all right, try to have empathy because it's a human being, etc. But if you're not, if you're not there, if you never get there, I'm not going to condemn you. If you're one of the over a thousand educators, black educators in particular, who were on his watch list, the turning point watch list, and you were getting calls and emails in the form of death threats and people calling you the fucking N-word and saying they wanted to rape you and lynch you. I cannot expect in good conscience that you feel empathy for the person that made you fear for your life. So, anyway, we said something about old Charlie. I'm fucking done with that shit. Yeah. Um, although I feel like this is just the beginning. So you named a lot of the things that we can do to support our immigrant community, like supporting immigrant-owned businesses, engaging with local immigrant advocacy groups. There are plenty in San Francisco, y'all, and pushing for policies that recognize immigrants not as threats, but as neighbors and essential workers. So again, immigrants hold the keys literally to our restaurants, our farms, our construction sites, our communities. The question is whether we choose to open the door or slam it shut.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All right, y'all. Well, I was just gonna say, you and I are about to go to New Orleans in a month. We are talking about a city that is because of all the culture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And some of it is, you know, there's some dark shit, right? Like colonialism and, you know. But at the same time, and I'm not sure that isn't America to me. It is America. It absolutely isn't. New Orleans doesn't necessarily look like the rest of Louisiana, and we recognize that it's a Mecca, like San Francisco's a Mecca. Right. Um, but it is absolutely beautiful. And so many people around the world love that place. Right. And it's because it is just an amplification of so many different cultures and music and food and everything that comes from people working, you know, not working together, because some of these cultures are thrown together against them. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Survived. Yeah. But what came out ultimately is beauty and and embracing of differences. And I'm not gonna act like there isn't still acrimony amongst people there. I'm sure there is. But we love that place for its cultural richness.
SPEAKER_01And San Francisco too.
SPEAKER_00Any place with that's had an immigrant influence. New York. Yeah, Chicago. I couldn't live anywhere that didn't have this influence. No. I go, I've been to very like bright. Potato girls, though. No, well, we grew up here, man. My mom's a lesbian, you're a Jew. Like, we've got a lot going on. Yeah. And so I think that makes us tolerance a stupid word. Like embracing of all this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like this, this is beautiful. And I I feel I actually feel bad for people who are afraid of diversity.
SPEAKER_01They're really missing out. They are. They absolutely are. Karen. So yeah. Sorry, Karen. Becky.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, uh, barbecue Becky's. Um, no, none of you are listening. We love you all. Keep following us. We're trying to create a YouTube presence. So far, we're hating YouTube, but we are slowly making our way. I have just taken the gloves off and I say horrible, deplorable Donald Trump-esque things back to people. I think it's kind of healthy. I'm tired of taking the high road and I've got a sharp tongue. And you do, I love it. Thank you. These folks, they're just gonna be on the receiving end of all my my frustration. So come at me, bitches. Yeah. But we have a great community on TikTok. We're almost up to 4,000 folks. Follow us there, Twat JC. Uh, we're on Instagram, the world according to Jen and Carolyn.
SPEAKER_01And it takes nothing to share. If you like what you're hearing, please, please, please share this with your friends. Go on a hike and listen to us.
SPEAKER_00Dissect us on your hike. Who doesn't want Jen and Carolyn sounding like crows in their shit? Yeah, for getting shit my nose. Classic old people shit. Uh, as you're trying to enjoy the splendor of nature. Anyway, splendor of nature is calling. I have to go pee. So we'll see you all soon. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye.