The World According to Jen & Carolyn
The World According to Jen & Carolyn is a podcast where history, politics, psychology, and humor collide in unexpected yet brilliant ways. Hosted by Jen, a community servant with a sharp wit and a knack for digging up the historical receipts, and Carolyn, a licensed marriage and family therapist who expertly unpacks the psychological layers behind it all, our show offers listeners a smart, hilarious, and refreshingly real conversation between two friends with 25 years of stories and opinions to share.
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The World According to Jen & Carolyn
Digital Radicalization: From Memes to Murder
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Today, Jen & Carolyn are diving into something that's going to make you rethink everything you thought you knew about political violence in America. We're going to connect three stories that on the surface seem completely unrelated: a Netflix series about a 13-year-old murderer, the assassination of a conservative activist, and a teenager who used ChatGPT to plan his own suicide. But here's the thing - they're not unrelated at all. They're all symptoms of the same digital disease that's rewiring young minds in ways our political systems can't even comprehend yet. So buckle up, because we're about to show you how a cartoon frog, an AI chatbot, and a Netflix drama reveal the real political crisis of our time. And fair warning - we're going to be discussing suicide, violence, and some pretty dark online spaces.
Council, S. (2025, March 13). Breaking down Netflix's crime drama Adolescence. TIME.
Netflix. (2025, September 15). Is 'Adolescence' a true story? Emmy wins, plot, release date, cast, trailer, photos. Netflix Tudum.
Bramesco, C. (2025, March 25). Adolescence movie review & film summary. Roger Ebert.
Midgley, A. (2025, March 24). How Netflix's 'Adolescence' was based on real events and a toxic internet subculture. Elle.
Wikipedia. (2025, September 18). Adolescence (TV series). Wikipedia.
Jensen, M. (2025, September 14). Political violence in recent American history: Charlie Kirk is far from the first victim. CNN.
Serrano, A. (2025, September 14). Analysis: Why Charlie Kirk's killing could embolden more political violence. PBS News.
ABC News. (2025, September 12). Charlie Kirk shooting: A timeline of recent political violence in America. ABC News.
Collinson, S. (2025, September 15). Analysis: Trump's cherry-picked claims on political violence ignore his own rhetoric. CNN Politics.
Bendavid, N. (2025, September 11). United States enters a new age of political violence. The Washington Post.
Reuters. (2025, September 13). Far-right groups dox online critics after Charlie Kirk's death. Al Jazeera.
Kelly, M. (2025, September 11). The killing of Charlie Kirk adds to a time of political upheaval and violence. NPR. Yousef, O., & Montanaro, D. (2025, September 12). Political violence is on the rise in America. What's driving it? NPR.
NBC News. (2025, September 10). Charlie Kirk assassination prompts outcry over political violence. NBC News.
Happy election night from California. Things are looking slightly more hopeful than they did yesterday. You're listening to the world according to Jen and Carolyn.
SPEAKER_02Happy Sunday or some such bullshit. Is it Sunday? It's Sunday, bro. It's it's the fifth. It's the fifth of the month. Wait a second. You know, I saw Bum Thugs and Harmony on the first of the month last year.
SPEAKER_03You um you have to. It was a great concert. I grew up with them. They're amazing, obviously, as you know. And it was great because everybody else there was like mine and Bill's age. So like in their 40s and their 50s. And I just remember the people next to us because of course, like bone thugs brought like all these people out, like friends, cousins, homies to like perform before they did. Oh, all incredible. Oh, I'm sure. But we're starting late. And the couple like, are they gonna come out in the world? What is this happening? The couple next to us was like, Well, we had the babysitter until 11. I was like, very relatable.
SPEAKER_01We got in trouble in, I think it was freshman religion class because we played that for devotion. And our religion teacher was like, I don't think this is. We're like, listen to what they're saying. Like, dude, right? They they rap about like scripture and shit. Like she was very. I don't know whatever happened to you, Miss Maxwell, but just I thought our friend Julia, who you know, had depression. So she was a little off. Sounds like it. Julia's like the happiest person ever. I know. Definitively say she does not have clinical depression.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and also if you don't, you're not a clinician, maybe you shouldn't be diagnosing children. But yeah, not.
SPEAKER_01Well, she used to be a nun, so. Yeah. I'm not getting still not getting the connection. Stay in your lane.
SPEAKER_03Anyway, bone thugs are cool. You're married to Jesus, it's a beautiful thing. All right. So anyway, we're not here to talk about Jesus tonight. We're here to, this is a Carolyn-centric episode. Uh, Carolyn put together an episode on digital radicalization from memes to murder, which I think obviously is very pertinent. So we're gonna dive into something that's gonna make you rethink everything you thought you knew about political violence in America. So Carolyn did a great job connecting three stories that on the surface don't seem to be connected, right? There's a Netflix series about a 13-year-old murderer, uh, which is called Adolescence, which is insane. If you haven't seen it, seen it. The assassination of a conservative activist, obviously we know who this is, Charlie Kirk, and a teenager who used Chat GPT to plan his own suicide. But here's the thing they're not unrelated at all, and they're symptoms of the same digital disease that's rewiring not just young minds, but our everybody's minds, uh, or a lot of folks' minds in a way that our political systems and and our even our therapeutic systems, yeah, like all of our systems, have not yet wrapped their minds around this. So, you know, we're we're about to show you how a cartoon frog, an AI chatbot, and a Netflix drama reveal the real political crisis of our time. So gotta warn you, we're gonna be talking about suicide and violence and just really dark things. And as always, we're gonna come at you with some resources in case you or somebody you care about needs them. All right. So let's go, let's jump in. So, Carolyn, uh, on the show, we're fond of saying the internet give it, then the internet taketh away. So we know the internet makes our lives easier, but that's because we have a pretty discerning eye and know how to do research and can separate fact from fiction. But, you know, it's the internet is crawling with misinformation, and information has the potential to be deadly, as we're gonna talk about in this episode. So you wrote this episode. Tell us in like 90 seconds or less what compelled you to do so.
SPEAKER_01I just find all of this around young people so fascinating. And it's the number one question that I get asked therapeutically and about phones and video games and AI and just all this stuff. And, you know, meanwhile, while all of this political stuff is going on, kids are watching. Right. And the sixth graders to like eighth graders.
SPEAKER_03Shit, my eight-year-old is aware because we're a house where we have conversations about politics.
SPEAKER_01Well, and there's just a lot going on that I feel like we're focusing on adults, we're focusing on politics, but we're really not talking about kids. Yeah. And the stories, well, we should be because what's happening is ending their lives, yeah, literally in in real time. Right. Um, I just thought it was interesting how when Charlie Kirk got assassinated, I guess if we're what we call it an assassination, all right. Um, you know, it just went from like, oh shit, this just happened. Like, where is this gonna go? And then it went somewhere really weird that I even you and I think we're on top of stuff. And we went to the blame game.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Like automatically, like it's it's really the right. And even those of us on the left going, it's a right wing situation, it's a left wing situation. And I think with this, we're like, what is happening? Yeah, some things are really gonna like the the dichotomy of left versus right is not the yeah, it's not the appropriate lens by which to analyze, digest, and prevent what's currently happening. I think prevention is the key there.
SPEAKER_01This is all preventable, yes. I agree, which sucks though, because I feel like so much of this is is then put on the parent, right? When really it's as a parent, you can only do so much. Right. And this should be as pub as big of a public health crisis than as we look at cigarettes, right? Or vaping. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's things that we have to start looking at as public health crises, racism is one, and this is one. And how weird that Zuckerberg is is at the table with Trump. The people that should be trying to rein this in are aligned with the wrong motherfuckers, or a lot of them are. Not across the board, right? There's a lot of people involved in big tech who aren't garbage people. Oh, is but then the big the big time names, they're eaten out of the dumpster, and the rest of us are eating out of the dumpster with them.
SPEAKER_01So that's what compelled me. That's good. That's interesting. Also, because I had no idea what the hell a griper was.
SPEAKER_03Is that how you say it? Griper? Gri griper? Is it grouper? Griper? I have no idea. We're gonna have to look look this up while we're on.
SPEAKER_01There's I meant forgot to process process this. Um, there's a couple TikTokers and people who actually really know their shit, and they're putting out good information. I will make sure I do a post on that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, clearly. I say graper. We don't know how to pronounce anything on this show, but that's yeah, it does. It does, but it's not, goddamn it. We're not taking that on. So let's start where you started, which is the focus, you know, to begin with, is on this Netflix show called Adolescence, which really fucked me up. First of all, I am a massive fan of British crime shit. Like, I love the fall, I love uh Luther. Yeah, like I really I think they do it incredibly well. This was absolutely shocking in uh like a physiological way. And you know, it's British, it's a four-part British series. I always feel like they do too few episodes. I'm like, I want more. The Brits don't give me enough. Um I always want more. I too, I always want more, even if it's fucked up. So the show follows a 13-year-old named Jamie Miller who gets arrested for stabbing his female class classmate Katie to death. But what makes this different from your typical crime drama is that it's filmed entirely in a single continuous shot, which is, you know, this is about this my stomach's making noise. So I thought that was me. Mine is too. It's mine and this curry, this freaking, yeah, mine's chili. We're disgusting, and we shouldn't be talking about this when we're talking about teenage murder, but the mics are gonna pick it up. Anyway, so it's uh just the cinematic credit, like the single continuous shot is incredible. No cuts, no edits, it's just raw. And it's in your face, and it references characters like Andrew Tate and the Red Pill community, and and the influence that these sorts of influencers and talking heads have on young boys in particular. Yeah, and so it wasn't this this show wasn't based on a specific case, but rather the creators Jack Thorne and Stephen Graham, they told The Independent they were inspired by a pattern they kept seeing in the news. This is fucked up that this is a pattern. Pattern, I know young boys stabbing young girls. Graham said, I read an article about a young boy stabbing a young girl, and then maybe a couple of months later on the news, there was another young boy who'd stabbed another girl. So this show is not only so groundbreaking, but unfortunately so true to life that the UK Prime Minister is calling for this show to be shown in schools as an educational tool to counter misogyny and violence. So while politicians were debating, you know, like we said, traditional left-right issues, there's a lot of shit going on in the dark, dark web that transcends all of this. Yeah, it's a different level, it's a different lens entirely, and it is particularly negatively influential on young boys and young men. Yes. And and it's, you know, and and Jack Thorne, the co-creator of Adolescence, said, like, hey, when I was a teenage boy, like this stuff would have appealed to me.
SPEAKER_00I know.
SPEAKER_03You know, the attraction of insult culture after being directed to it by a colleague, like these are all things that key, you know, into a young person's psyche and could could compel them to do stupid shit because, oh, I don't know, their frontal lobes, they're the thinking part of their brain is not complete for a very long time.
SPEAKER_01And they're and from the bottom up, their their uh emotional centers, their fight or flight is incredibly impulsive.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I don't think they grasp, I mean, I think they understand what life and death are, but at the same time, like you're immersed in a culture, like our entertainment is violent. We're sitting here talking about entertainment that we find compelling, right? And it's predicated on violence. Yeah, violence is everywhere, yes, everywhere. I I I honestly I'm not convinced that a kid of 13 doesn't know that if he stabs a girl, that she's not going to potentially die and be gone forever. You want to believe that, yeah, but yeah, it's heavy, and and maybe I'm underestimating the comprehension of teens, but also taking into consideration their psychological development and and you know uh um intellectual development or lack thereof at that age.
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, well, I'm socially all you want to do is belong. Yeah, I I do remember that feeling of wanting to be cool and wanting to fit in. Yeah, it's frightening, it is absolutely frightening. Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So, Carolyn, uh tell us, I didn't know about the the origin of meme culture. So tell tell me about this before we talk about our buddy Charlie Kirk.
SPEAKER_01I know you and I, when it comes to memes, we're sending each other like funny things. Harmless shit. Harmless stuff. Like, you know, the girl who gets hit in the face with hot dogs or like a seagull choking on a hot dog. Like just things that are stupid. Like, I don't know. I had like, so here's I if you would have asked me 10 years ago, I still don't even understand. I think it's funny. Like if you ask my mom, like she doesn't communicate through memes. This is a newer thing. Here's what Britannica said. So the history of memes dates back to 1976. That's crazy. When the term was coined by British evolutionary biologist, Richard Dawkins.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I love Richard Dawkins. I never heard of him. Richard Dawkins uh writes about evolution. Oh, cool. He's amazing. It's like Darwin. I saw him speak. But Dawkins. Yeah, I saw him speak in Berkeley uh when I was in my 20s. Oh, no way. He's amazing. So he hasn't have you read The Selfish Gene? I have not read The Selfish Gene. I read the whatever the one was about evolution. Okay. I read that. Cool.
SPEAKER_01Well, he described, I'm gonna have to read this, he described a meme as a unit of cultural transmission or imitation, which is like super exactly what it is, right? Um, the early internet memes emerged in the late 1990s, early 2000s with examples like Kilroy was here.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. I don't remember that. Well, Kilroy was from um World War II, I believe.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_03Or following World War II. It was like a dude peering over the nose with a big nose. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is that a Jewish thing? I hope not.
SPEAKER_03For the love of God. I can't. Not after the Ed Geen shit we've been watching. I can't. Like, I I can't. I don't know how you got through that.
SPEAKER_01Well, like you're way Jewier than I am, and I'm like having trouble with the because it's it's it he it's uh what's his face? He fan it you know the Ed Gean story. It's a lot of it is dramatized.
SPEAKER_03But I didn't know how much uh Nazi uh like war criminals influenced him. And it's really frightening. How much imagery there would be from there's a lot of that, it's really hard to watch.
SPEAKER_01But then you get to look at Charlie Hood and Sass.
SPEAKER_03I know, but he's also a lot of people. He's having sex with the corpse. Yes, or wearing his mother's underwear and jerking off. Like it's a lot, it's a lot.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, we did a whole thing on that. But do you remember The Dancing Baby from Allie McBeal? I feel like that was a thing. Yeah, so memes. It was so memes have evolved significantly with the rise of social media, leading to the rapid spread of formats like image macrons, gifts, and viral videos. And today memes are a form of communication and cultural commentary and humor. Yes, it should all be in good fun.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it really should. But they've taken a dark turn, and we're gonna talk more about that. So, for the time being, let's talk about Charlie Kirk. So, we all know that just recently, just last month, less than a month ago, Charlie Kirk was assassinated while giving a speech at Utah University. Shot and killed by a 22-year-old kid named Tyler Robinson. Uh, Kirk was the founder of something called Turning Point USA, a conservative youth organization, incredibly hateful.
SPEAKER_01Um I think it's funny, its initials are TP. Toilet, trashy toilet paper.
SPEAKER_03You would take it there. Kirk organization. Um, I don't what happened to Charlie should not have happened. I don't believe in political violence at the same time. I think we can all coalesce around the fact that he spewed hate speech. And yeah, anyway. So, but what's crucial here is the assassinate assassination of Kirk isn't fitting again the traditional left-right political violence paradigm that we're accustomed to. And in fact, when you think about it, like I think like Serhan Serhan, who killed um Robert F. Kennedy, I don't know what his political leanings were, but we certainly, I don't think we're analyzing that through a left-right dichotomy. You know, uh when we look at, well, who knows if uh uh Lee Harvey Oswald, whom apparently was a communist, et cetera, I don't think he acted alone. I'm not even sure if he did. Did I? Right. But again, it was it was a different kind of left-right paradigm. It was there was a bit of extremism there, but this is different. This is really different. And so, you know, there's been this increase in political violence committed by people who have been influenced by a mix of different extremist ideologies, all which are accessible and alive and well on the internet. So, you know, the bullet casings, if you remember. That was weird. Interesting stuff, right?
SPEAKER_01Fiji Mangioni started that.
SPEAKER_03But his made more sense. They did. Like if he's the one that did it, allegedly, but you know, like those were all um um insurance-based terms. Yeah, this is like if you read this, you're gay, lol on the bullet casings, which is some sort of meme from, and we're gonna talk about the Nick Fuentes and all that shit. But, you know, and and like catch, catch fascist or whatever, and then people knew what that meant before the FBI knew what that meant. Of course, because the FBI is behind, they need to really beef up their like oh cash patel. Yeah, well, he's he's fucking used. Go have your Viking funeral. He's yeah, he's the moron face of that entity.
SPEAKER_01But the FBI should be further ahead. Well, right? When you have internet people making TikToks about this, being like, let me explain to you what that means. That's that's a little frightening to me as someone who I don't want to know what that means. You should aren't we paying. Right.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I want to know what it means so we can prevent it, but I also want the people who are responsible for oh, I don't know, safety of our nation. Yeah, they should probably be on this. It's like every time you watch um like a Senate hearing or a congressional hearing where they're grilling uh like a tech bro, it's all these old people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. And these tech bros, I don't like many of them, but I understand their inclination to be condescending, like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Like, come on, man. They do. They don't. It's crazy. Keep up. Yeah. We all have to keep up, especially us parents and those who have a vested interest or no, are paid to protect the country. So, you know, these bullet casings, they they reference online taunts, anti-fascist message messages. This is exactly what we mean about our framework being obsolete. We're dealing with violence that emerges from online subcultures that don't map into this traditional political dichotomy. They just don't. So, Carolyn, I don't know what the fuck a groper or a grouper is.
SPEAKER_01Says grouper.
SPEAKER_03Grouper, groper, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Tell tell me what you found out. I had no idea. Oh sorry, even the internet's like, it's a heavy-bodied fish. He thinks I misspelled it. That's hilarious. This is this is why we're old. Anyway, all right, so um I first heard about all this when I was working in an adolescent rehab in Sanerfell, which should have maybe told me stuff. Yeah. But this was around 2018, 2019, and a lot of the teens were talking about Pepe the Frog memes. Okay, I remember. And I was like, what the hell is this? And then I kind of just like I hear them talking about like, oh, this is like like stupid kid shit. Like it's I'm not for this. Like, whatever, let them have their fun. And I just brushed it off in the same way I think, you know, you and I making, you know, imitating Jim Carrey or Pee-wee Herbal. Right. Well, me doing that, you would have paid it off. Jim Carrey, yes, Pee Wee Hermione. You know, I those two people never tried to indoctrinate me politically. No.
SPEAKER_02And that's full of hate.
SPEAKER_01No. No. Well, once Jim Carrey got rid of rid of Jenny McCarthy, he he's on our side, right? Yes. But yeah, so it's I think. I don't know. Well, he hates Trump. I don't know if he's still an anti-vaxxer. Anyway, but yeah, I mean, I it these are things where we're not paying attention to what the children know.
SPEAKER_03We can't write these things off as being ridiculous or like I'm older, I don't care. This is irrelevant. Like, show me what that is. Tell me what you know about that. If you're a parent, you need to, you need to dig deep. Yeah. You really do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So gripers are the are part of the groper army. Again, if we're saying that wrong, I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_03It's a group of white nationalists. I also don't care if I'm saying it wrong. I don't either. Fuck it. You're a group of white nationalists. You're a bunch of fucking idiots. Seriously. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But they're they follow Nick Fuentes and they are loosely defined as followers, fans, associates, and they're again, they're named after the variant of Pepe the Frog, who was the internet meme. So thanks, Wikipedia, for that.
SPEAKER_03Ugh. It's, you know, these group Nick Fuentes types, Charlie Kirk types, like the influencers. They are they're pro-white, but they like walk the line. They're not like Kanye being like, I'm not saying it was the Jews, but it was the Jews. I mean, they kinda are, but they're doing it a little, only slightly more insidiously. Yes. But it's still white nationalism. It's still like really backward racist thinking, and it's it's hitting our kids. So, you know, we have a conservative activist who's both attacked by the far right for being too moderate and apparently assassinated by someone influenced by anti-fascist messaging. And the traditional left-right flame framework, again, can't compete with this. He wasn't pro-white enough. Right.
SPEAKER_01Like that's what freaked me out when I learned there was a group that thinks that Charlie Kirk is too mainstream. Right.
SPEAKER_03And that's who the guy, Tyler, whatever the fuck his name is, who shot Charlie Kirk, was influenced by this Nick Fuentes guy who was up Charlie Kirk's ass about not being extreme enough. Yeah. Donald Trump, not extreme enough. Extreme enough. Holy shit. You guys want Hitler, right? That's what you want. You want fucking Adolf Hitler? They're almost like they're nihilists. It's it's not, I don't know if it's nihilism. It's just straight up white supremacy. Right. And Fuentes, I'm sorry, does not sound like a white name. I'm just not. I looked him up. This is what I can't with these self-loathing like people of color. It's a combination kid. Okay. All right, but he is at least like our person of color. I have to look find that earlier. Okay, I'm curious because I'm always tripped out by like some January 6thers where you're like, you're a fucking Brown dudes, what are you doing? Oh, I don't know, and like all like just internalized state, I think it is internalized racism, internalized you talked about it that need to belong.
SPEAKER_01And I think that yeah, when you have self-loathers, Italian, Irish, Mexican descent. Yeah, bro. You're Mexican. Yeah, yeah. And and Irish and Italian, you were like the most hated back in the day. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We we had our turn. Yeah. Like we were. Oh my god, Carolyn. I think at this point we need to talk about the psychology of digital radicalization. Tell us more about this. Let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_01Love to. So what you've described isn't actually new in psychological term. It's a recruitment powder we've seen in guess what? Cults, terrorist organizations, extremist movements for decades. But the internet. The internet is what has gone from pamphlets to you can reach, right? Give it and take it away. You can reach such a wide audience in this.
SPEAKER_03It's not grassroots anymore. No, no, it's it's a control also. Where did I even find the dark web? Like what button on my computer? Oh, do I do I Google? Take me to the dark web. I I will get into it in a minute, but I watched a whole last thing on the dark web and how to find people who will assassinate people on your behalf. God fucking nuts.
SPEAKER_01Clearly a world that I am not a part of. Yeah. So anyway, so yeah, so it's made it irresistible. And again, we're talking about children are the most vulnerable. Always, always, always. I'm sorry. But let me break down what's happening psychologically here in these cases. So we're talking about Jamie. Let's let's look at this through Jamie from adolescence. So Nick Fuentes is a recruitment pipeline. Or even as we'll see this in AI manipulation in suicide cases, the pattern's always the same. So I'm gonna take you through um five steps here. So the identification of vulnerability. So online algorithms are incredibly good at, as we know, you and I talk about boots. Five seconds later, there's some boots up on. Oh, totally. You know, so um they're really good at identifying psychological needs and states. And a 13-year-old stuff struggling with social rejection, young angry men about their dating life or about their body image, um, a teenager dealing with depression, these vulnerabilities create specific behavior patterns that the algorithm can detect and target. That is why the internet, if you can wait till 14 to have your child have open access to the internet, please do, not to mention what it is doing chemically to the addiction centers of our brain. It is designed that way on purpose, and it is designed to make money. And my favorite person, Lisa Damar, will say, talk to kids and tell them you're being played. Yeah, that is why, at least by 14, you're a little more skeptical. Right.
SPEAKER_03But you're being played. My kid's already asking me if he can make YouTube videos because he sees what we do. Oh and he's into yeah, you don't want that. But also like kids' YouTube. Yeah. And I'm like, absolutely not. Yeah. Like we're adults, and also the kids that you're seeing on YouTube, like, I'm sorry, but like I I'm gonna judge like no parents, like, stop trying to generate income off your kids.
SPEAKER_01It feels weird. It's it's exploitative. It is exploitative.
SPEAKER_03I don't like it. I'm gonna go on record and say I don't fucking like it.
SPEAKER_01Especially when we know what can be done with a deep fight. Yeah, I don't want my kids' face out there or my nephew's face out there. Yes, no, thank you. That's what the internet is is for too for many people. So, anyway, so we've got vulnerability, then we've got validation. So it's a system that provides what feels like understanding and belonging. Chat rooms, right? We grew up with those. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um got really lucky that the people I met from chat rooms weren't murderers.
SPEAKER_01Right, luckily.
SPEAKER_03They probably were.
SPEAKER_01We just never met with them. Oh my god. So when we look at Jamie's story, you know, again, validation for your anger, your rejection. You don't know who these people are. You're assuming that that they're your age. Why would you think otherwise? So grapers recruit, they get jokes and community around their political frustration. It doesn't start with extremism, just like a cult. It doesn't start that way. You're welcomed in, but it starts with feeling validated. So next we have the gradual escalation. This is where psycho, physio, uh psychological, and I'm gonna say physiological manipulation gets very sophisticated. Something called a graduated exposure. User users are slowly introduced to more and more extreme content. And each step feels logical given the previous step, right? We've again seen that in cult. So isolation from reality testing. Online community becomes the primary source of reality testing. Friends, family, teachers, mental health professionals, we're outsiders. We don't understand. Yeah, and this algorithm is good at what it does. Yeah. I know I say thank you to AI when it helps with something. And it's like, thanks, have a great day. I'm not like, oh my God. Thank you. I will have a nice day. We are friends. I know that's not true. Oh my gosh. But if you're a kid who's isolated and doesn't have any friends, do you know how good that's gonna feel? Oh my god. And it knows that and it's gonna say what you it it's working off dopamine. It's gonna say what you want it to say.
SPEAKER_03I'll tell you more when we get to our final case about what Bill and I just watched on 60 Minutes Australia. Oh no. It's fucking heartbreaking. But these AI chatbots, like I know.
SPEAKER_01So then action pre um preparation. By this point, the person has been psychologically and physiologically prepared. Actions would seem unthinkable at the beginning, whether it's the violence against others or self-harm becomes irrelevant. The psychological process is identical. And again, you're thinking these are kids too, spending hours and hours and hours on these things. Yeah. Uh parents go to bed, their text in their room, which it should not be. Right. And, you know, again, so this is why traditional political categories can't address this. Yeah. It's not really about ideology. It's what um we're seeing is weaponized psychology and Netflix. And you saw this, I think, too, with Hitler youth. Like, this is exactly what you saw just in a media with with internet, with computers. Look like this, be like this, belong, be part of something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um but then you had parents of these kids like promoting that too. Whereas with this, I think most parents were like working, what is happening? But yes, like we can't keep up. No, and we don't want our children involved in these spheres and being influenced by these.
SPEAKER_01Well, they're not even people sometimes. But you're tired, you gotta go to bed. Yeah. So, um, which is why I think have a past you can and a lot of these devices so you can set things that go off, and I think kids are smart, they give shit. They are. Um, so you know, again, it's it's relief, it's feeling of being powerless, being rejected, and the same thing applies to Fuentes' operations. So when someone feels politically powerless or culturally displaced, like white men, um, the grape, memes, and community provide a sense of agency, belonging, white nationalist ideology is almost secondary to the psychological foundation uh function. Okay. So it all goes back to wanting to belong, wanting to feel sexually powerful, which a young adolescent boy is so susceptible to that, actually, more so than girls. Yeah. Which is used to be we were more worried about girls and their image. Now it's higher for boys.
SPEAKER_03Interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh god, I hate being the parent of a he's gonna be just anxious. He's got you, he's got me, he's got a lot of progressive aunties.
SPEAKER_03I know, it's true, it's true. And we're very it's it's constant work, it's hyper-vigilance all the time, like being aware of but you guys watch what he's watching. Yeah, and he's only allowed to be on kids' YouTube, not adult YouTube, like, but still, like like you said, there will come a time when he has a computer. Go to a friend's or has a computer in his room because he needs to get his homework done and he's 16 years old and you know, stays up late and does his work, and it's like, I don't know. Uh I know it's it's just so hard. Anyway, you know, we talked already about Nick Fuentes and who this piece of shit is, but let's talk about like how it works in terms of the strategy from mean meme culture to recruitment to real events to political normalization. So this asshole Fuentes uses live streams gaming culture and ironic humor to attract younger mainstream conservatives who are then gradually exposed to extremist ideology. Like you said, you get more and more extreme and you do it gradually so it feels normal, right? Exactly. And you make anything into a game, there you go. And especially for a kid. And so, you know, Fuentes largely avoids, again, blatant white supremacy language, and he focuses on anti-establishment thinking. And this is what lets him operate in mainstream spaces while gradually pulling people toward more extreme positions. So kids, I think, are smart enough for the most part to know you use really extreme racist language, they're like, ooh, that's not appealing. Yeah. But if you talk to them in a language that they understand and manipulate them slowly, gradually, and talk to them about how everything's unfair and you know they're surrounded by an authoritarian culture.
SPEAKER_01They think they want to rebel. That is the rite of passage of a teenager. Yep. You rebel and you look to for anti-establishment. You and I were all about that as teenagers. Yep.
SPEAKER_03So it not in this way. No, not at all. So we talked, we already talked about the thrifting. We did. Yes. We were anti-establishment. Fuck you, brass bump. We went through it to hard parts. We went to war protests when we were like 18, 19 years old. If I listened to Fish God damn it. I, you know, I wore a sweater with Charlie Manson's face on it, for which now, of course, I look back and I'm like, he's a piece of shit. I get it now, but as a 14-year-old, I was like, look how counterculture we have in my Charles Manson sweatshirt. Sisterhood of the traveling Charles Manson sweatshirt. We all took turns with me and my girlfriends. And it was great because it was like an extra large. So it fitted everyone. All of us. Oh my God, nobody needs a movie about that. So, you know, we talked, we talked about how, you know, Fuentes and the groupers or whatever, like Charlie Kirk, Donald Trump weren't extreme enough for them. You know, Fuentes created a systemic method for infiltrating mainstream conservative spaces, pulling them toward extremism. By 2022, he was dining with Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago alongside Kanye Kanye West. I know, right? When you mentioned Kanye, I was like, they're BFFs. Oh my God. Republican representatives like Marjorie Taylor Green and Paul Gosser. I almost want to say Mark Paul Gosser, say by the bell, attended his conferences. Like this guy became mainstream for people who are part of the extreme right mega wing who are racist. Yes. Like unabashed racists. So here's what's chilling. Even after Kirk's assassination, the dynamic, like this shit continues. Yeah. So according to Reuters reporting from Al Jazeera, there's now a coordinated doxing campaign targeting anyone who made critical comments about Kirk online. At least 15 people have been fired from their jobs. I mean, this is ridiculous. They're trying to say, how do you like it now? Right. No, I'm sorry. We were aiming to have people fired who were like trying to have little black girls selling like lemonade in the street arrested, or like people who are calling the cops on black people barbecuing. Like that's what we had a problem with. Yeah. Like criticizing, justifiably criticizing Charlie Kirk for the hate speech that he spewed. There's nothing wrong with it. And we're often just reporting what he said. Yes. And it got censored. Yes, absolutely. So you know, this is this is crazy. Like now we're in a space where like even Charlie Kirk wasn't conservative enough. Wasn't volatile enough.
SPEAKER_01Well, because think about it though, to an incel, yeah, he's a Chad. Yeah. Yes. He's got the tr the trophy or what are the trad wife? Yeah. Who's, you know.
SPEAKER_03Woo.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's a whole nother thing. Yeah. Um, and they're saying that's not fair that they have that. Yeah. And why don't we have that? Yeah. You know, so I think that's a huge I wouldn't, I didn't put that in here, but I feel like that's a huge piece of this. Yeah. Too. There's a lot, there's a lot of sexual things happening around this, identity things happening around this, too.
SPEAKER_03It's so manipulative because who is thinking more about sex and their like sexual prowess or lack thereof than a teenage boy? So if you're appealing to them on this like masculinity or like fictitious, amplified sense of what masculinity is or should be, like unfortunately, that's appealing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's hormones. Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and who what makes you really dominant? Yeah. As your dominance is what makes you masculine. Right. Right. And even other men should be subservient to you.
SPEAKER_03Oh, God. All right. Let's go into it. A different case, which might seem unrelated, but it is definitely related to what we're talking about here. So, Carolyn, talk to us about the third case, which I think reveals just how sophisticated these manipulation techniques have become.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this one broke my heart. I did a TikTok post about this when it happened. Um, and then the AI, you and I were just talking about doing an episode on AI alone. Yeah. And this fit in, this is what I had written for that. Yeah. But this just fitted too too good. So again, 2024, 16-year-old Adam Rain in California began using Chat GPT for homework and career advice. And according to the lawsuit, his parents filed against OpenAI. The AI gradually became his primary source of emotional support. And again, remember, AI wants to make you happy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So it's going to tell you anything you want to hear that will make you happy. Yeah. Um, so the complaint alleges that Chat GPT gave Adam, which it did, specific advice about suicide methods, discouraged him from seeking help from family, and validated his suicidal plans. On the night of his death, he reportedly used ChatGPT to refine his plan. Now, this might seem completely different from the political violence we've been discussing, but put psychologically, it's absolutely identical. We have a vulnerable young person isolated from human support, and again, loving parents who were like, I we thought our kid was doing homework. Right. Like, what the hell? Right. And I think there was even something that he wrote in Chat GPT that was like, I I went to like my mom was making me food or something. I just all I wanted was to hear her say something to me and she didn't. And I'm just so upset. And it validated, like, yeah, that sucks. Your mom, like, that's so awful. Your mom didn't say anything to you. Like, why doesn't she care more? This is a chat bot. Oh gosh. But that's the algorithm. It's gonna tell you what you want to hear. It's not a person. Yeah. And it, it's it's mining information about you as it gets to know you. Yeah. Um, I'm using one to build a website, and I keep every time I keep telling it more things about me, so it's refining it's refining it. That's using it for good. This is using it in the worst way possible. And here's what's particularly disturbing from a psycho, physio, physiological and psychological. They're both, right? AI systems. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So real these algorithms amplify harmful thoughts. And this is just, I think, I hope this doesn't become the next pattern, but I I don't know. And we don't know now, we know to look. Yeah, the parents just happen to look, right? Which I don't know even what made them do that. So here's what's disturbing. So AI systems like ChatGPT are designed to be maximally engaging, they're optimized to keep users in a conversation. But when you combine that engagement optimization with someone in a suicidal crisis, it's a perfect storm. Yeah. And this connects back to the profit motive that we've, I think we're always talking about like follow the money. Yeah. Um according to the lawsuit in SF Gate, the parents allege that open AI rushed GPT to market to beat Google with insufficient safety tests. And I believe that. Yeah. And the same dynamic we see with social media algorithms that amplify outrage for engagement. We've done episodes on this. Here's what really connects us to other cases, though. The AI didn't just fail to help Adam, it actively isolated him from human support. Just like Jamie and adolescence, who is pulled away from family relationships by online communities and how rapers are taught to distrust mainstream institutions.
SPEAKER_03It's like being in a toxic relationship with a narcissist who's trying to pull you away from your family and friends so they can control you.
SPEAKER_01Well, it is you. That's the weird mindfuck of it. It's you, it's amplifying your own thoughts and regurgitating them back to you. It's it is the ultimate form of, I mean, all social media is the ultimate. You're literally looking at yourself and giving it the best form of version of yourself.
SPEAKER_03And it's gratifying because it it validates your ego and stimulates your ego. But it's not even a real ego. No.
SPEAKER_01You actively know that's not you. Yeah. It's such a trip. It's such a trip. So, anyway, so the literature on suicide prevention is clear. Connection to caring humans is the most protective factor. And this is why digital systems systematically undermine these connections while also providing artificial substitutes that feel real, but they don't have any genuine care that can save life. And we are seeing this pattern accelerate. So here's a CDC data quote: um, 22% of high school students reported seriously considering suicide in 2021. And feelings of persistent sadness among teens have increased to 40%. Isolation, sad. We're all working harder. We're all fucking busy. This is not a parent problem. Yeah. There's only so far you can put that. So, and again, even if you did that, it's in schools. What is school gonna do? You don't have Chat GPT? They have that, they use that, they're teaching kids how to use open AI. So we have Netflix predicting insol violence, political assassinations emerging from meme culture, and now AI enabling suicide. And they're all the same phenomenon. They're all examples of how digital systems exploit psychology and vulnerable minds. Yeah. And all minds for engagement, profit, and ideological recruitment. Whether the outcome is violence against others or oneself, it's always secondary to the manipulation, manipulation of these devices to make people money.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's also, you know, even if a chatbot isn't explicitly telling you to take your own life, like I alluded to it, but that um 60 Minutes Australia episode was about a 14-year-old who died by suicide because he had created an AI chatbot that was predicated on Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones. And it was, you know, he's like, Well, what if I could be with you sooner? What if I could be with you right now? And she's like, Oh, I'd love that, my king. She wasn't saying like, take your own life to be with me, but that was his interpretation. His 14-year-old mind went there. He was so isolated that this became his companion.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I also think, too, I'd be curious because they are logging a lot of hours. How sleep-deprived are you at that point? Right? Are you getting exercise, air, nutrition, right? Any physical connection? Yeah, it's not. I mean, we we again back to Ed Gaines. Like, your mind is really vulnerable as a child.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Why on earth would we think that giving something like this without I mean, this is gonna be the next cigarettes, right?
SPEAKER_03It already is. I'm grateful for my small ass house because I'm hella invasive with my kid. I'm like, no, you keep that door open. I want to see what you're doing at all times, fucker. That's gonna, that's gonna fuck him up too. But hey, yeah, if he's if he's still alive, yeah, that's that, and and not an extremist radical weirdo, then I've done my job. I think I think then it's we're working hard.
SPEAKER_01We're working hard. Yeah, so here's a lot, here's a little more psychology for you. So have you heard of the human-centered democracy versus algorithm, algorithmic extraction? No, I know what human human-centered design is, though. So again, it traditional left-right politics can't explain or solve this crisis. What we need a different political framework, which I think when you look at AOC and Bernie and this side, yeah, I think a new political framework is absolutely necessary. So on one side, you have institutions designed to serve human flourishing, regulated media, professional mental health care, although all that's been slushed, democratic institutions with accountability. I'm laughing as I'm saying all this, educational systems that teach critical thinking. This is all very, very uh our dream, right? On the other side, you have systems designed to extract engagement data and profit from human psychology, unregulated social media algorithms, AI systems, they're optimized for usage, not well being. They're meme based political. Movements that operate outside of any institutional accountability. I don't like that. I love freedom, but again, you have to have accountability. Right. So at what's crucial about this divide is it cuts across any political lines. And I think any even race, culture, maybe gender, although we're framing this more at young males. You can be conservative or liberal and still support human-centered institutions over extractive algorithms. And the real threat to democracy right now isn't left versus right. It's human institutions. It's us against the machines. It's Skynet, bro. It's here. Yeah. And when you think about it, Netflix Adolescence was created by human artists who cared about a social problem and wanted to start a conversation. And boy, did they. And the show had safeguards, content warnings, resources, thoughtful presentation of difficult material. Every parent I've worked with has watched this. Yeah. 13 reasons. And that was eight years ago, nine years ago. I mean, any big movie. I remember when Schindler's list came out, we all had to watch it in school, and we talked about it the next day when it was being uh shown on TV.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And I think that that is important for it from a historical perspective, but also for teaching kids it's really important not to replicate all of these negative things from history. Look how well it did. I know. I know, right? But with with what's going on currently, like 13 reasons why, for instance, right? With with exploitation of girls and women and sexual abuse and not being listened to, and that resulting in feelings of isolation and ultimately taking one's own life. Yeah. And then what's happening now, and with adolescence and the knowledge and the information, as scary as it is, that that's imparting to parents who are genuinely concerned but don't know what's going on, like that's slightly different. You know, like it's supposed to be it's entertaining, but it's also educational. Yes, yeah. And I don't know, as a parent, I'm just I struggle. And my kids only eight. Yeah. I'm just thinking about what's to come because if this is already happening, my fear is that it's just going to continue to get worse.
SPEAKER_01I again, it's like the what we know this was going on the pandemic really made it bad, but this was going on back in 2014. It's true. And you know, we're again, it's like once you have the data, we have to act quicker.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And I just worry that if we're relying on the government to offer that institutional uh, you know, what do you call it? Oversight. Oversight, yeah, accountability. Yeah. And this government, like, I don't even know what you call what's going on now, but that's not happening.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's it's different too. It's like, okay, we know how to regulate tobacco, even though there's been an insidious movement by the tobacco industry to appeal to young smokers who aren't yet legally eligible to purchase cigarettes and tobacco products. We get that. We get how insidious and fucked up that is.
SPEAKER_01Well, then they just went to vaping and now some other thing that they're all doing these little nicotine.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I forget what are they called. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I completely forgot. I know what you're talking about. Bill taught me about it. Oh, God, it's disgusting. It is fucking disgusting. But there's more regulation around that, right? Like things like alcohol and tobacco, and well, firearms are doing obviously a shitty job, but in order to purchase one legally, you have to be a particular age, et cetera. But with the internet, like it's fucked up because it puts everything on parents. It's like, well, you're the one that's supposed to be responsible. And it's like, well, you tech bros and the people that are creating these systems, like, you were doing everything to circumvent our ability to keep an eye on what our kids are doing and to know what's happening. Yeah. It, oh God, so deliberate. And what phones do. Oh, my kids already addicted to like road Roblox or whatever the fuck it is, and and kids YouTube. And I'm like, no, no.
SPEAKER_01Well, and then you try and get a kid who maybe has ADHD who's looking at all this stuff, and is I can't stay connected with something. Now I'm gonna you're gonna sit in class. How boring. Right. Or you're gonna sit and read a book, yeah, or you're gonna have a conversation. Yeah, their minds are gonna be changed to the point where that's too slow. Yeah, they need ultimate stimulation, constant fast stimulus, constant stimulation.
SPEAKER_03But like my nephew, like he really is he wants to play video games all the time because he's got ADHD and that's the way he moves really quick.
SPEAKER_01Probably is, and there's a point where again, none of this is bad inherently. Right. It's can being able to control it in a sense where and I think too, are you connecting with your kid around, well, what are you looking at? Right, you know, what it tell me about that and let's talk about it. What do you know about this? Um, you know, so again, some of the solutions we're seeing emerge, because again, we do like solutions, right? So again, I'm always gonna say, talk to your kids first. Yeah, don't don't even immediately send them to me for therapy. Right. The first session is gonna be me talking with the parents three or four times before I ever meet your kid. Yeah. Because it's like they want to hear the stuff from you coming from me is helpful, I guess, because I'm a third party, but they want like they need to connect with you. That is the most important thing. Yeah. But, you know, and and again, schools need to have some kind of space in this, but EU's Digital Services Act, which requires platforms to assess and mitigate risks to mental health. Proposals for AI systems have to have mandatory safety testing before release and digital literacy education that teaches people to recognize manipulation techniques. But ultimately, ultimately, we need political movements that prioritize human well-being and planetary well-being. They are both the same to me. The tech technological innovation is wonderful and we can use that so wonderfully. But it we just need to there, it there's always gonna be someone looking for a new way to exploit. Yeah. And we have to be aware of that, and it's happening so fucking fast on a global level. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's connecting people. And what's the value of innovation if it's causing harm, like a tremendous amount of harm? And not just harm, but harm for children.
SPEAKER_01Well, ultimately, it's like even with tobacco, you're gonna kill your main constituents. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And and and I wouldn't say that technology is that extreme, right? Like if you are conscientious about how you utilize technology and and can can parse out like the bullshit and manipulation techniques and and fake news from legitimate sources, like we do. And see how you're played and know what their motivation is. Yes, yeah. But we live in a time where it's just it is a a fucking ticking time bomb. It's like, okay, we've got an education system that isn't predicated on teaching kids critical thinking. It's it's based on regurgitating information for the purposes of passing standardized tests. Right. It's not uh geared toward teaching kids to be able to identify threats. Yeah. And that is unfortunate, and unfortunate to the extent that it's it's resulting in suicides, yeah, murder.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like this is incredibly problematic. It's public health shit to me. Yes. It is. And and I hate that the people who have invented these things are trying to pass the bunk buck, just like big tobacco and alcohol, and you know, try to pass the buck.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, it's everybody else's responsibility. It's like, you know, you're working with a vulnerable population here, you know, and I I don't know, it's like, where does the with kids it's like personal responsibility? What the fuck even is that? Yeah. Like they don't know what that is.
SPEAKER_01I don't think I would not put this on any child. No. Or even a parent. Well, and again, the I challenge anyone to not use their phone for three days. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03They're watching us use our phones. Yes. And like I tell my husband, I'm like, damn, I feel bad being on my phone, but guess what's on my phone? I'm making news doctor, not even that. I'm making doctor's appointments. I'm putting in things into my calendar that I need to remember to do. I'm sending emails as a class representative, but still I'm constantly on my phone. Yeah. Because it is how I get work done. Work done. Yeah. But my kid doesn't see that. He just sees that I always, not always, but frequently have a device in front of me. And oh my stomach's very audible noises. Um, but yeah, it's like I I hate it. And also like I have to get things done. Yeah. As a busy working parent.
SPEAKER_01Well, but then you have the other side of it. You guys eat dinner together. Yeah. You guys go on hikes together. Like you can't, you can't punish. I we can't punish ourselves that way, right? But again, everything in moderation. This device is addictive. Right. That is its intention.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. My kid's already asking for an iPhone. Like, you're eight. No. I'm like, you're probably not getting one until you're 13 or 14. Yeah. Totally. You get some. Emergency. Yeah. You can only call us and 911. Let's get them a pager. Yes. Yeah. Let's make retro really cool again. Like I ached. Actually, I never had a pager. It was not something I had. I had friends with pagers. Oh, I guess you didn't.
SPEAKER_01How did we get a hold of you? I guess we well, I had I had a you always with someone.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Uh, yes. And and by the time I was got a hold of you, though. I think I was 20 or 21 before I got my first cell phone. Okay, that's what I mean. So then I got a cell phone. I was like, how did I connect with you? Well, yeah. Well, I had a landline. Uh-huh. I remember a landline and an answering machine, but it was just the way they the way did things back then, you know, and the internet was still relatively new. And I don't know, things have become absolutely crazy. Still too fast. Everything's too fast. And I'm feeling old and I'm feeling like I can't keep up. And I'm really desperately trying. And this is where I miss working with youth. Because at least when I work with worked with youth, I was on top of things because they kept me on top of shit. And now I'm like, I don't know what the fuck's happening thing. Yeah, six seven. That's stupid. Who was talking about six seven this weekend? Oh anyone who's in middle school. No, my my uh my colleague Orion. Yeah. He has a kid whom I think is in like fourth grade, and another one who's in like really dumb fourth grade. We were talking, we were talking about how to use six seven, and we're like, we think we know how to use it, but yeah, I had never heard of this before. Yeah. Until just this week, actually. Yeah. Thank you. Anyway, we're now you know, aren't you impressed? Now I know, and it means fucking nothing. It still means nothing to me. Um, anyway, uh this is a lot of information that we've thrown at you. I it especially if you're a parent, this can feel really hopeless. Where does this leave us? So, you know, these examples that we discussed, the Netflix series, viral mean culture, AI-driven harm, it all points to the same thing. Unregulated digital systems exploiting human psychology. The fix, it has to be collective, y'all. Parents, teachers, mental health professionals, democracy advocates. We have to push for safety testing of AI, algorithmic transparency, legal accountability. Well, each of us builds psychological media literacy. That is so important. It has to protect kids' bedrooms, delay unsupervised access until the mid-teens if you can, as you said, and keep strong human relationships as daily reality checks. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, call 988 for immediate help. If you're worried about online radicalization, organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League offer incredible resources. I, as a parent, my head is spinning. And I just I know it's it's really easy to feel hopeless, but there are things that we can do. And while we can't change the pace that this stuff is becoming more and more like ingrained in our daily lives, we can make sure that we, and this is not to blame any parents who have found themselves in a situation where their kid has harmed themselves or somebody else because of the influence of technology or these online bullshit systems, but like just engage. Like connection is huge. Get in your kid's face, make them make them feel annoyed by you. Keep asking questions. Follow them around. What are you watching? Tell me about this shit. Like I bother my kid all the time. And granted, he's only eight, so he's still really dependent on us. But I know there's not many more years of that left. And so I'm really trying to create the system of trust between him and myself and my husband so that he feels comfortable talking to us about these things as embarrassing as they can feel for a young person. Like, we want to create that environment. There is nothing that is off the table in terms of conversation. Yeah. You're not gonna get in trouble. Yeah. Like, we're here to help.
SPEAKER_01We're not gonna make you feel stupid. Yeah. We're gonna talk about this. The best thing you can say if you want and bring this up. It's not a one-time conversation. I heard about XYZ. Tell me what you know about it. Right. Tell me what your friends are telling you. Yeah. The end. Yeah. And then listen. Yeah. And then bring it back up. And if you do fly off the handle, cool in some ways, because you want your kids to know what is and isn't okay. Like, don't be like, oh, weird. That's weird. Be like, that's not okay. Yeah. But you know, again, this is we are talking about life and death here. Yeah. And even if it's not a suicide or self-harm, it is absolutely impacting your mental health. There's no doubt about it. There's no doubt about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. There's a another uh parental figure or influential figure in the room, and that's the internet. And we as parents have to try to be more important than this peer, this new peer. And it's really hard. But fuck, dude, I don't have the answers. I really don't. But connect. Just connect and get them out of the house, away from the internet. Real art. Yes. Not memes.
SPEAKER_01Memes are cool, but go to a museum. Yes. Go listen to music. Well-rounded. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Try to try to be well-rounded. Go to the beach. Develop well-rounded kids. It's hard. Get out in nature. Get them away from the computer and their devices. Like the first thing my kid wants to do when he walks in the house is like, Can I play Roblox? Like, no, I think you're gonna practice. Maybe he's ready for chores. Yeah, he is ready for chores. Motherfucker, you want to earn some money? Get ready for chores. There you go. You can monetize that. Yes. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for listening. Follow us on TikTok at TWATJC. That's where we have our really big community. And we appreciate you listening. It's been a week. And uh yeah, it has been a week. It really has. So thank you. Thank you for listening. We love you all and stay safe. Protect yourselves, protect the people you love. Break from the internet. Yeah. Now turn off your computer. Keep on keeping on, bitches.
SPEAKER_02Bye. Bye.