The World According to Jen & Carolyn
The World According to Jen & Carolyn is a podcast where history, politics, psychology, and humor collide in unexpected yet brilliant ways. Hosted by Jen, a community servant with a sharp wit and a knack for digging up the historical receipts, and Carolyn, a licensed marriage and family therapist who expertly unpacks the psychological layers behind it all, our show offers listeners a smart, hilarious, and refreshingly real conversation between two friends with 25 years of stories and opinions to share.
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The World According to Jen & Carolyn
The Bot Effect: How Bots Shape Politics and Elections
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In this episode, Jen & Carolyn explore the relatively new phenomenon of bots. They’re everywhere online — but what are they doing to our elections, our beliefs, and our politics? Artificial accounts that look like real people… automated armies flooding social media… AI chatbots that can change minds. Are bots influencing elections? And if so, how much?
Brashier, N. M., & Marsh, E. J. (2020). Judging truth. Annual Review of Psychology, 71, 499-515.
Fazio, L. K., Pillai, R. M., & Patel, D. (2024). The illusory truth effect: A review of how repetition increases belief in misinformation. Current Opinion in Psychology, 56, Article 101736.
Henderson, E. L., Simons, D. J., & Barr, D. J. (2021). The trajectory of truth: A longitudinal study of the illusory truth effect. Journal of Cognition, 4(1), 29.
Li, N. P., van Vugt, M., & Colarelli, S. M. (2018). The evolutionary mismatch hypothesis: Implications for psychological science. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 27(1), 38-44.
Menczer, F., Hui, P., Ahn, Y. Y., Ciampaglia, G. L., Ferrara, E., Flammini, A., ... & Yang, K. C. (2024). How foreign operations are manipulating social media to influence your views. The Conversation.
Porges, S. W. (2022). Polyvagal theory: A science of safety. Frontiers in Integrative Neuroscience, 16, Article 871227.
U.S. Department of Justice (2024). Justice Department disrupts covert Russian government-operated social media bot farm. [Press release].
Uh you're listening to the world according to Jen and Carolyn.
SPEAKER_01Happy Sunday, Carolyn. Is it Sunday already? It is. I know. The weekend is over.
SPEAKER_00Um, but it's been a beautiful weekend. You were talking about this earlier. Do you are you a Monday to Sunday person or Monday to Saturday or Sunday to Saturday? What do you mean? Like my week starts on a Sunday. I officially think it's Sunday to Saturday. Okay. It's a week.
SPEAKER_01I think that's, yeah, your work schedule. My week does not start until Monday. Okay. So this is still part of last week. I had this conversation with my child last night about the delineation between quote unquote last week and this week. It's all capitalistic anyway. There's no such thing. Damn you, aquarian calendar. It all revolves around work, bro. Trying to create good little capitalists. Um, so we're not talking about, well, we're always talking about capitalism. This is always a uh a critique of capitalism, our show. But today specifically, we're gonna talk about a relatively new phenomenon called bots. Bots! They're everywhere online, but what are they fucking doing to our elections, our beliefs, our politics? You know, there's these artificial accounts that look like real people, you know, automated armies that are flooding social media, AI chatbots that literally change minds, alter the course of elections. You know, that's what's going on. We want to talk about it. So today we are gonna dive into the bot effect. Did you watch House of Cards? No, I didn't. What? And now I feel like, can I? Because of Spacey and like his bullshit. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I mean, it it it is on the level of Sopranos in anti-hero. I've heard good stuff, but well, I think yes, you need to watch it. Uh people who are listening, let's get on Jen. Make sure she watches us. So they did a season where they kind of allude to now what I am understanding as bots, and it lost me. Like all this shit loses me. And that was at least 10, 15 years ago. Remember uh, what was that show we watched where it takes place in Seattle and it's the hot, it's the two, it's the um the redhead detective, and then the real skinny dude. Oh, oh, that's uh uh killing. That dude makes an appearance, he's running for office and he's like bulked up. Yeah, it took me forever.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't look like a math head. Yeah, it's like he does on the show. The killing is so cool, you guys. That is a political angle too. Yeah. What happened to Rosie? Yeah. Oh god, it's depressing. It really is. It really is. One of Bill's friends, one of his best friends, he and I like ordinarily agree on television programming and he hated the killing. I loved it, so that's always like our our It's slow pace. Well, he didn't like that the way the first season ended without telling without a resolution. Because you had to go into the second season, if I'm not mistaken, to get the resolution to find out what happened to Rose.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's like it's like uh what's it called? Um Special Victims Unit, Law and Order, just drawn out over two seasons. Totally. Which I love.
SPEAKER_01I think it's great. Anyway, that is completely an aside, somehow connected. Let's talk about fall. This is my third one of these, too. Oh, yeah. We've been drinking. So it is Sunday. The guy who watches football upstairs, not Super Bowl Sunday. Oh, whoops. I think we're in the playoffs. I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00You know more than me. I asked who was throwing balls to the kids.
SPEAKER_01Yes. You're like the quarterback. It's not completely off base to ask who is the primary ball thrower for our team. The 49ers. It's called the quarterback. I got a look from Mario when I said that. He was like, don't even try. My boyfriend Kittle is apparently injured. That bums me out. Um, Kittle seems like a really exceptional human being on a lot of levels. Anyway, we're not here to talk about football. If we were, we wouldn't know what the fuck we're talking about. Bots is something I think we know more about. So, Carolyn, prior to putting this episode together, could you define what a bot is?
unknownTo be honest.
SPEAKER_00So, whenever we do our episodes, sometimes I have no idea what the topic is, and I'm like, all right, this will be fun. Literally, this time, I honestly didn't know. Yeah. The first thing I thought of though was the Terminator. Okay. Is that like bot adjacent? Well, it's like some Skynet shit, right?
SPEAKER_01Like machines taking over the world. Okay. Um, so I think it's relevant.
SPEAKER_00But I I would I also wrote down what I think and then later see this boy. Later at the end of the episode, I'm like, okay, now I know this. But I put like fake AI. I think I was uh fake botted on many a dating website. Oh yeah. Um and I think like ATMs though, are those considered bots?
SPEAKER_01What do you mean?
SPEAKER_00Like a like or like self-checkouts and things like that as bots?
SPEAKER_01Maybe to an extent. Like there are customer service bots where you go into a chat and you're looking for some customer service guidance and there's bots answering. So to an extent doll a bot? Uh I don't think so. Not in the sense that we're talking about.
SPEAKER_00Because I've heard that most technology comes from porn, most advances and entertainment and media. Well, look at DVDs.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, that's true. Well, well, real dolls, like something you can put your dick into that's supposed to simulate like a legitimate vagina that doesn't have like a tech component. I don't think that's a bot. But I think now they have like personality. Like now they like do stuff. That's fucking nuts. I think they gyrate. I need to catch up. And they have personalities. No, men don't want to fuck a personality. That's true, right? It's like the woman, the woman.
SPEAKER_00Can they, can they the male version of a bot would like fucking clean, clean their hair out of the sink and we wouldn't even be interested in the dick.
SPEAKER_01Maybe occasionally. It'd be like, can you clean up after yourself? Can you uh make the kids lunches for tomorrow? I need that.
SPEAKER_00Can you remember what I told you about where we have to be this Saturday?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's like that that episode of Black Mirror. That was a bot. Which one? It's the one that that made me stop watching Black Mirror, the husband who is obsessed with social media so much so that he gets into a car accident and dies because he's fucking around with his phone. And the wife, who misses him so much, has this company create uh a bot of him. It's fucking sad. It's so sad. I'm like, Phil, if you died, I'd have a bot in the basement that I just trotted out on our kid's birthday to say what's up. Fucking sad. Anyway, let's talk about. So for me, in terms of bots, like I would always think about social media bots, right? Like the negative political comments that we get on our bot on our social media. They're they could be from automated accounts that are used specifically to spread misinformation and manipulate opinion or just create nonsense and noise, but some are from real people using anonymity to be negative, you know, these keyboard warriors who hide behind their keyboards and anonymity. So you can spot a bot. I think this is really important. So, folks, you can spot a bot by generic posts, high volume, suspicious profile picks, or repetitive nonsense nonsensical comments, but distinguishing from trolls can be harder because these bots they mimic human interaction. So checking profiles and comment patterns is really key. Okay. Um, I've just taken to anybody who says mean shit to us. I'm like, oh, how is Russia this time of the year, darling? Or like, oh, you're a fucking bot, you know, like who knows? Ugh, weird. I know so weird. It's very weird. So let's define a bot. What is a bot? So, in tech terms, a bot is software that automates activities online, often mimicking a real person's behavior, like posting, liking, retweeting, or replying to you without actual human input. So some bots are benevolent. Think, as we talked about, customer service chat bots. But in politics, bots can be dangerous because they're used to spread misinformation, amplify political messaging, and create a false impression of consensus. So let's talk more about how bots operate. This is all relatively new information for me, and maybe it will be for our listeners. Totally.
SPEAKER_00I was just playing organ trial. I did not understand anything else in the computer class.
SPEAKER_01We got from a real primitive technological time, y'all. So bots aren't new actually. They go back to the 2016 US presidential election, where social bots made up a significant portion of political discourse online, creating content and shaping narratives on platforms like Twitter, eX, and Facebook. So research shows that during people, I refuse to call it X, and if I do have to call it X, it's EX. Because it's so much toxic, toxic masculinity between Elon and officially white supremacy. I know they said Elon said the quiet product part out loud. We knew it was coming, it has come. Surprise. Yeah. Anyway, so research shows that during key political moments, debates like voting days, policy rollouts, things of that nature, bots actually spike in activity and they help manufacture consensus by flooding feeds with supportive content or critical attacks. So another example, remember Brexit? Yeah. Okay, so Brexit, that's where automated accounts dominate a discussion around leaving the European Union. So bots really had an influence there, right? So according to a social media researcher, bots create the illusion of massive support. When users see repeated messages, they assume more people believe it and that it's true. Okay. And that changes behavior. So this tactic, flooding the space, is sometimes called astroturfing. So fake grassroots support engineered with bots. We're gonna start calling it astroturfing. Astroturfing, I like that. Bots don't just post, they interact, which is why they're so deceptive. They reply to real users, join trending topics, tag influential accounts, all to direct conversation. There's a twist though, Carolyn. Recent research shows that AI chat bots, not simple bots, can actually persuade voters. And in controlled studies, conversations with AI shifted opinions on major political figures. That's fucking scary. That's a quote from the Washington Post. So, Carolyn, a political psychologist said when a bot or AI gives targeted information repeatedly, even if some of it is misleading, it can nudge someone's views. That's powerful. Can you talk more about this? I would love to.
SPEAKER_00Yes. All right, so Jen, you just walked us through what bots actually do. They manufacture false consensus, they flood feeds, they make us think everyone is talking about this. And you heard that researcher say when we see a repeated message, we assume more people believe it and it changes behavior. But I want to dig a little deeper into something. Why? Why does this work on humans? Particularly, particularly a certain type of human.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Just saying. Okay. Take that where you want to go. Take that where you want that to go. I smell, I I smell what you're cooking. Okay.
SPEAKER_01The rock.
SPEAKER_00Uh I'll I'll let you uh gracefully explain that later. So, what makes our brain so vulnerable to the specific manipulation tactic? Which is exactly what it is. And we have to see this as predatory first and foremost. Because understanding the mechanisms is going to help us recognize when it's happening, not just on screens, but you should be recognizing when this is happening anywhere you read or see anything.
SPEAKER_01Or even interact with someone. So again, I need to point out that we are the beneficiaries of higher education. The the disciplines that we studied are incredibly research-based. So we learned how to delineate between fake news, for lack of a better word, and peer-reviewed research. And there are plenty of people in our society who don't have that discerning ability.
SPEAKER_00But they need to work on it. Would you take this a step further though? I was taught by both my parents don't believe anything you see. In fact, my dad would say, like, if they're it's being advertised to you, it's not selling.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's like most things, he's like just triple-A advertised. Like at the time they didn't, but like I was taught to be very skeptical. That's great. Of all things.
SPEAKER_01Well, your parents were both educated too, right? Don't you think?
SPEAKER_00I think my dad was just really distrustful of people.
SPEAKER_01He was a cynic. Your dad was a cynic and uh a bit of a uh misanthrope. Like fuck people. Kind of. Um my my mom liked ninth grade education. And no inner.
SPEAKER_00You know I fucked with her.
SPEAKER_01No, but that was from a different perspective. Like a street perspective, no? She had street smarts. My mom had street smarts, but the ability to discern between fact and fiction, I don't know if that really was like part of her DR. We really learned that in school, right? Yeah. Well, yes, 100%.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we were learning APA style in like second grade, learning how to write. Oh shit, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_01See, I also went to public school, and that was not a component of our learning. So that again is a thing, too, right? Like my child theoretically is going to get a different type of instruction than the education that I got. But you know, that I don't want to um take away from public schools because there's plenty of wonderful public schools. So anyway, take that with a grain of salt, bitches. Sorry, I derail their conversation.
SPEAKER_00So again, I'm gonna give you a little nervous system foundation that's what I do as a therapist. So here's what's actually going on: our nervous systems evolved for face-to-face communication with people we could see, hear, and touch, but don't touch each other unless you have consent, bitch. Polyvagal theory, which is basically just a nervous system, tells us that we have something called neurosception. Uh-huh. And it's a subconscious process where our nervous system cons uh constantly scans the environment for cues of safety or danger. If you want to learn more about this, look for anything by Dr. Stephen Porges. Okay. When we do this through what's called social engagement system, reading facial expressions, listening to vocal ups and downs, watching hand gestures, which I'm doing a lot right now, detecting microexpressions, microaggressions. So for hundreds of thousands of years, the system worked brilliantly because you had to see a face, hear a voice, and watch someone's body language to actually prove that something was real. So here's where the mismatch comes in. Then we shifted to text-based communication. You could even see, like, even when we were doing fucking like morph codes and telegraphs, you still knew there was someone on the other end saying SOS, right? So our nervous system made a logical assumption: if there's a text, there's a person. Because for the first decades of the internet, that was actually true.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Real people rang doorbells, re real people hung out in the basements talking, like you and I did. Um, the early internet was about connection, resource, resource sharing, and genuine community.
SPEAKER_01Fuck yeah. AOL chat rooms, bitch. And then the other side, too. I mean, that was kind of dark, but wholesome in some sense.
SPEAKER_00But like all good things, right? So it is a dark element. But you can see what's happened techno. We're in a tech boom, right? And that's been going on most of our lives for sure. But what evolutionary psychologists call a mismatch environment. Our evolve mechanisms are encountering stimuli that they weren't designed to handle. This is from a 2018 research article that I put in the notes. So we evolved social monitoring systems for groups, maybe about 150 people we knew personally. But now we're exposed to thousands and millions of voices daily, and our nervous systems just can't tell which are human or not. Oh, I know it's inundation. Inundation. Yeah, I can't take a break. Yeah. But we often can't. Because it's part of our jobs, it's part of how we stay connected. And I think the pandemic, this we were already seeing in uh 2016 to like 2018 pandemic, just push it up. Amplified it. Amplified it. 100%. So here's the specific psychological mechanism that makes bot repetition so dangerous. It's called the illusionary truth effect. Oh, geez. When people are exposed to repeated information, even blatantly false information, they start to perceive it as true. This is from a 2024 Fozio research. Um, again, it has nothing to do with being gullible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00One study exposed people to statements up to 27 times and found that with each repetition, people rated the statements more and more truthful, regardless of whether the statements were actually true. Wow. Even when people knew the statement was wrong, repetition made it feel more real. Holy shit! Well, so you can work this both ways. This is why repetition helps. Right. If you want to study for a test, for instance. As well, depend or or make any kind of behavior change, dietary, uh going to the gym. You just keep going, even if you're not working that hard. You're wired to do that. Exactly for survival. So your prior knowledge, this is what I think is scary. Your prior knowledge doesn't protect you. Your intelligence doesn't protect you. By the fifth time you've seen a claim, your brain processes it more fluently.
SPEAKER_01This is why people who are incredibly intelligent end up joining cults. Yes, yes, thank you.
SPEAKER_00This is cult psychology. And they know this. And and and they've been studying. And they've been studying this. We did the C what was one of many of our episodes often kind of go this way. That we've been studying this as a kind of warfare. Yeah. Because it works. Yep. Um, and we unconsciously interpret the ease of processing as truthfulness. Yeah. So that's if it feels familiar, it feels true. All right, now let's layer this on top of what you told us about bot activity. So now we're not just talking about five different concerned citizens. Current research estimates that at least 10,000 AI-powered bots were actually active daily on it like you too. It sounds like I'm taking a shit. Even before the trust and safety teams were gutted. Oh god. So in 2024, the US Department of Justice uh disrupted a Russian bot farm. I I'll just tell you what my baby is. The imagery in my head is crazy. It's crazy. I know. I wish I I wish we had someone doing like little art cartoons while we're doing like a court drawing. Yeah. Little sketches. Yes. Um, so it was called a tool called Mellerator. Is that how you would say that? I don't know. AI-driven software designed to create fake American personas. Again, I think this all happened in dating websites long before that could pump out text, images, and video supporting Kremlin objectives. And only a thousand accounts were linked to operations that were suspended on X alone. And investigators believe that that tool worked on other platforms too. So then you have Russia, China, Iran all deploying these systems, and they're sophisticated. The bots infiltrated your network by seemingly reasonable. So you thought you were getting a casserole recipe, and then boom!
SPEAKER_01Surprise! We're gonna tell you how trans people are responsible for all the wrongs in the US. Damn it. Oh shit, but no one looked you're so reliable. I made you a tuna casserole, and also trans people are gonna attack you in the bathroom. No, no, no, it's a keep gravel off eggs.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, they're bad. People then reshare it, and then you get something from a trusted friend. So again, it floods the space with repetition. So repetition is key. Um, all right, now let's be absolutely clear about what this is. Bot deployment is information warfare. It's not random. Foreign governments and domestic political operatives are intentionally exploiting the mismatch between your evolved nervous system and the digital environment. Oh, yeah. They know you can't see them, which works. They know repetition works, and they know your neurosception, your threat detection system has no way to orient danger that it cannot perceive. It's a 2016 election. Yes. Yeah. All right, so can can I take you on a little journey here for a moment? Let's go, bro. Can I can I take you on a journey here? All right, so I'm gonna this is entitled Park Observation. Okay. So the other day, I was walking through the park, as I often do in the morning, and I saw maybe like 33-year-olds in this like big open park space. And this is actually the day after all the shirty-three-year-olds. Three-year-old children. Okay, got it. 33-year-olds got it.
SPEAKER_01Just like 33-year-old to just dance at that.
SPEAKER_00Very much so. No, I saw about 30 little three-year-old children in an open space. And they were following an adult running around. They were eating, some were eating with a teacher, a few were playing under sticks that they had leaned up against a tree, same physical space, but each child was kind of forming their own little reality based on what they could perceive, what they could see, what they could hear, what they could touch. And when I see things like that, it was the day after all the shit hit the fan. Um, with with the ice shooting, and it was just this moment where I was like, look at these like sweet little babies, like just having fun in the park, just like this is what like they're so unaffected by this. Like their little reality, which is so lovely. Um, anyway, so that's how we're wired to form a reality through embodied sensory experience. And when You're online, you're forming or on your phone. I'm just gonna make it so we're all on our phones. Yeah, you're forming your sense of what everyone thinks based on text you assume is from a human. And if that text is actually from coordinated bot next bot networks designed to make fringe positions seem mainstream, they're designed to repeat lies until they feel familiar and designed to trigger your nervous system into fight or flight without giving you anything concrete to orient yourself. That's why everyone was flipping the fuck out, like odd nauseum this last four years. Yeah. You lose the ability to form coherent perceptions about what's actually happening. Yeah. And we're not just talking about being influenced, we're talking about a reality collapse. And those kids in the park could look around, they could see what was real and what wasn't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They could orient and they can make sense of their environment based on actual input. But you and I, when we're scrolling, our nervous system is desperately searching for social cues that literally don't exist. Wow. And the same message appears 20 times from different people, you're not gonna see a bot, you're gonna see it as real.
SPEAKER_01We talked about this with online dating, right? Like you're you don't get those social cues, right? The things that you get when you're doing face-to-face communication. And so your brain starts to fill in the blanks or starts to look for things that aren't present for whatever reason. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah, not it's a hard world to navigate, and I feel so badly for youngsters. We say this like I feel like every fucking episode, but teenagers and young people in particular, like this is a fucked up world to try to navigate.
SPEAKER_00And it's but it and yet it is their world, and they are probably better at navigating this than maybe the people who are actually voting. I think that's the point. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Because think of having to do this with a freaking seven-year-old who's like, well, why would they lie?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, absolutely. And I feel like our generation, we we get it, but hopefully my kids' generation really gets it and really is discerning.
SPEAKER_00This is what I tell teenagers when their parents and with anything related to tech. Um because I'm like, you're let's tap into your rebelliousness. They're they're playing you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They think you're gonna believe this. Are you stupid to let them think that? Right. You're gonna let the adults fuck with you? Right. Oh, yeah. That's a good thing. That's a good way to get them to cut the shit. Explain it to them as what you're actually being used. Yeah. They don't actually like you know, and again, it's still they're gonna do what they're gonna do, but anyway, I try. You do try, you do a great job.
SPEAKER_01So thank you. What we're seeing, really, I think, is micro-targeted persuasion tailored for emotional engagement. When you would you say that's accurate based on everything you just said?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and remember when we talked about art as protest, words don't what we're asking to go into our prefrontal cortex, that emotional context, bypasses the prefrontal cortex. You have to speak to someone's heart. So the part of our brain that actually does rational evaluation, when something triggers fear or outrage, our amygdala activates, and before we can even fact check, it's it's already on. So it's it's not a display, it's not something wrong with you. Yeah, it's something that you're seeing visually that's bypassing. They know, and that's the way it's set up. You would be better off. Like I got a subscription to The Atlantic, and that's how I'm trying to uh consume media now. Good.
SPEAKER_01It's slower, it's great, and it's good off-ed pieces written by really smart people, and I I really I tend to love their publications, but yeah, oh god, it's a lot, it's a lot to process. Let's talk about some real-world cases from around the world because bots aren't just a US phenomenon. You mentioned the Russian bot farm, right? So let's talk about Australia. Nearly 20% of accounts discussing a national election were fake or bot-like, distorting opinion and drowning out real voices. Moldova, I I don't even fucking know where that is in the world. That's typical American, like, I don't know, geography. But ahead of elections here, AI-generated misinformation campaigns tied to foreign influence operations aim to manipulate public perception. And then in the EU, with the TikTok concerns, some governments are now probing AI-driven political content for foreign interference. And I think that's really important, right? Especially after, again, the 2016 election. And on the back end, determining, which I think we we knew what was transpiring, how much interference there actually was. I didn't understand it though. I think it was relatively new at that point. Yes. And I think it was, well, shit. I I think we're inclined to say, even if there are these persuasive bots who are spewing misinformation, ultimately people are still making their own decisions, albeit predicated on misinformation. So what's the problem? Because we all have free will and we all should be able to discern fact from fiction, yada yada yada. Yeah. But I I think as we go even deeper into this topic, we'll see like that's not fucking fair. Right. It's not right. And uh Americans, like some of us ain't so bright. I you just have to say it. I'm gonna say it. I am not, I've said this before, I am not going to be ashamed of my education. I am first generation high school and college, and I don't give a shit if somebody calls me a liberal fucking, you know, academic elitist. Fuck you, I worked hard for this education. I overcame some really serious, like, you know, barriers. Like, I don't want to hear it. I'm not about to talk in monosyllabic terms for some dummy. Like, get on my level. But I also understand the inequities in our society that prevent somebody from getting there. Even though I circumvented and overcame a lot of those inequities. Anyway, this isn't about me and how fucking amazing I am, but I digress. So let's talk about these cases. The cases that I mentioned, rather, they show a global pattern, which I think is important. Bots are used to polarize, mislead, and manipulate, often during the most critical civic movements. So right now we're seeing this massive movement against ice. Tons of bots being deployed to try to manipulate uh, you know, public public view. Yeah. So limits and misconceptions. Let's talk about some limits and misconceptions. So it's important to separate influence from actual voting sway. So some experts urge caution. Bots may amplify noise, but they don't necessarily change millions of votes directly. I'm really happy to hear that shit. Still, bots undermine trust, right? They make it harder to know what's real, what can erode confidence in democratic institutions, which is arguably one of their biggest impacts. So, according to Election Integrity Advocate, if voters can't trust the conversation they're seeing, that's a win for polarizing forces, even without shifting vote totals. And while bots may not vote, they definitely shape perception, dialogue, emotion. The latter, I think, based on what we're saying being the most important, yeah, all are critical to elections. A lot of time people vote with their emotions, absolutely, not their intellect. And what they see every day, yes, what they're experiencing every day, that is what determines how they are ultimately going to vote. And b bots know this.
SPEAKER_00Well, and would you say too, from a government standpoint, like most people don't have a pulse on what's going on locally, they're only looking globally. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, uh nationally. Nationally. Yes. I agree. And that's why I'm always telling people look at what's going on at the local level. That is where you can actually make a tangible, visible impact. Yeah, get involved because it's all connected. Yeah. And, you know, I I always encourage people to do that. So, anyway, so what's being done and what comes next? What's happening? What are people doing to stop this fucking like I'm surprised the unions haven't gotten in all this for taking away labor? Well, I mean, that is a big conversation in labor right now, right? Like AI and um self-driving cars. Like, I'm one of my good buddies is like high up at the Teamsters, and it's a conversation of for that in particular, which is slightly different. How do we evolve with technology so we don't get left behind and so that our people still have good union jobs? So, anyway, that's another conversation. We should do an episode on that. So, what's being done? So, platforms like X and TikTok are under pressure to detect bots, label automation, and take down harmful networks. Governments are proposing transparency laws to require bot disclosure.
SPEAKER_00Why would they do that though if they're the ones using it benefiting from it?
SPEAKER_01I don't trust that. I don't trust it either. Like that's here you do too. It's like, who's behind this? And what does the um the detection look like? What does the labeling look like? Who does it benefit?
SPEAKER_00Well, and when you say too, like you could look at the newspapers. Yeah. Like you knew who was fun behind the newspaper, what advertising, like it's always been a skewed well, it was supposed to be fact-based, right? But we would even say journalism has taken a hit so much because people like us have podcasts. Like, we're we're happy that we do a lot of research. And again, if we've messed something up, please tell us. But anyone can have an opinion now, and we all just share each other's opinions, yeah, and then that becomes reality.
SPEAKER_01Well, everybody could have an opinion before, but those opinions now become amplified via social media. Look at what's going on in Minnesota right now. Renee Nicole Good would likely still be alive if there weren't some piece of shit right-wing influencer who said erroneously, there are all of these daycares, Somali daycares, who are getting government funding but aren't even open. Look, I know it has happened, but in this case, there was an investigation conducted. Bullshit. Yeah. But that is why hundreds, I think now maybe thousands of ICE officers were deployed there. Because this person had a fucking uh social media megaphone, for lack of a better term. We have a dumbass fucking president who just started doing shit without any investigation, and also governs via social media. How did we find out about what happened in Venezuela? Truth social. This is fucking whack shit. Yeah. So we see the ugly, the really ugly side of amplifying these messages, particularly uh uh unfounded messages that aren't rooted in fact. Yeah. Direct correlation, as far as I'm concerned. So you know, challenges remain in terms of trying to fix things, right? So those challenges are primarily bot detection, it is super hard. Like when somebody says something ugly on our page, we're like, uh, is this a troll? Is this a bot? Like, if you're a troll, you might not have a lot of friends on social media because you're a piece of shit. Doesn't automatically mean you're a bot. Anyway, also an advanced AI makes bots more human-like. Um, bad actors find ways to evade safeguards. And sometimes these are used in a wonderful way. There was a woman, not a woman, I'm sorry. Um, they posed as a woman. This is there was a uh uh like an AI conference or something in Germany recently, and this person went on to these um white supremacy dating sites, it's called like White White Connect or something. Yeah, and they showed up at this conference dressed as the pink Power Ranger, which is fucking awesome. But they would use AI chatbots and give them directives to connect with these people to make them think that they were actually developing a legitimate connection, and then they'd break their hearts. And I'm like, yes, and then ultimately they ended up like really like using their their hacker skills to shut these sites down. Cool. I'm like in real time at the conference, so like giving the code, like the directive to shut it down. I'm like, this is rad. So above my head, I can't even make my phone location service. Right? There are a lot of brilliant people out there. Some use their brilliance for good, like this person, others for evil. So experts call for AI regulation, digital literacy, and transparency to protect elections. I I couldn't agree more, but it sounds like it's incredibly difficult to do so. So, Carolyn, we've just laid out this pretty overwhelming picture. Bots exploiting our psychology, manipulating our emotions, making it impossible to know what's real, what isn't real, what can people actually do with this information? How do we function in this environment without becoming paranoid or completely checking out? Although checking out sounds really nice.
SPEAKER_00Those are kind of my two modes, right? Yeah, right. So, yeah, when you notice yourself getting emotionally activated by something you see online. Oh God, every day. Especially if it's repeated multiple times, you have to pause. Like you have to stop. You have to notice when that's starting to happen. Not because you're paranoid, not because your nervous system is telling you something feels urgent. The urgency is exactly what these manipulation campaigns are designed to create. It's like scams.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Like let's create urgency that you so you send us money without thinking.
SPEAKER_00It's the same thing. Yeah, it's just not right, nothing's new under the sun. It's just a new bottle of tonic that you're being sold. Um, you have we have to slow down. We have to slow down. Yeah. We have to check sources. We have to ask, how do I actually know this is real? Because right now I'm it's skepticism, not cynicism. Uh-huh. And it's survival. That is gonna be survival. Survival is going to be doing what Australia did and saying, no, children, you may not have social media. Yeah, let alone a phone before 14 to 16.
SPEAKER_01It's so hard. It really is. And as a parent, my kid is always asking for more in terms of action. Right? Well, bitch, you're gonna get the one four three. Um, he's like, Can I have an iPhone 17? I'm like, no, baby, I don't even have an iPhone 17. You're eight, you cannot have an iPhone. So we're limiting access to even kids' YouTube because it's absolute garbage. But that push and pull is there, and their peers that we always talk about this are an incredibly strong influence. My kid's like, guess what? His bestie at school. Guess what? My bestie watched over the break. He watched Stranger Things. I'm like, I can't even handle Stranger Things. Yeah, I wouldn't let you watch them. Yeah, it's because he has an older brother, right? And this I know God, and and his peers bring their iPad to aftercare, to extended care, and I'm like, no. And we get there and we're perfect, we're pleased as punch, as the old people used to say when we get there, and he's playing outside with his friends, or he's doing his homework and he's not on a screen.
SPEAKER_00This has this is why you and I've talked about this is a public health issue. It is so I appreciate that parents need these tools as well, the same way my parents would have given me a Light Bright, but Less Light Bright wasn't trying to manipulate my mind. Light bright wasn't a pedal on Roblox, bro. And so I think it's gonna go the way of, like I said, like countries like Australia setting a precedent and saying there are schools in the Bay Area who are saying no, there are no cell phones on premises. Like if you're a parent, if you need to get a hold of us, you may call the office and we will get that message or something's happened. It's just I I mean, we can't be trusted. We can't.
SPEAKER_01No, and it's addictive. Oh, yeah, I get that. I do, I do. And first thing in the morning, like Bill and I wake up and we're looking at our phones. Yeah. And and granted, it is the equivalent of picking up a newspaper. It's fair. But at the same time, should we be picking up a newspaper and and immersing ourselves in all of this terrible news first thing in the morning?
SPEAKER_00Science would tell us that you shouldn't have any talk about an hour after you wake up. That'd be still an hour to two hours and no more and not an hour before you go to bed.
SPEAKER_01I love that. And I really try to not the latter part, not the bed part. But when I wake up, I get up, I have my slow morning, I get dressed, I get my makeup on, I drink my coffee. I try. I try, but within an hour at least, I have my phone in front of me. Like, how did our TikToks do last night? You know? Like shitty, because I don't know what's going on with TikTok. I am fuck you, TikTok. Um, but yeah, I I I think there need we need to pull back. We really do. I think we're getting there. Some of us are. So our final thought on this fucking crazy topic is that bots are only gonna get more sophisticated, right? They can't cast ballots, but they shape the battlefield of ideas. And right now, the battlefield is fucking digital. So whether you're a voter, a journalist, a policymaker, understanding bots is essential for democracy. We can't be like, oh, this bot thing, whatever. And we have to truly understand what's going on because we have to be able to combat it. And you have to understand the mechanism in order to be able to fight it. So we need to dig deeper. We need to understand, we need to be able to identify these bots, and we need to loudly and more strongly than these bots are able to do, like, signal to people, other human beings, like, don't listen to this. This is bullshit. Like, this is a bot. Like, no. I always think of femme bots too. Oh, fembots. Pew, pew. Oh god, that's just more insel shit. Jesus Christ. We already did an episode on that. Go back and check it out. So we hope you enjoyed this episode on bot. I did. I learned something. I learned something as well. Have a better sense of what they are, and most importantly, how to reject their influence, y'all. So sorry, I'm looking at what do you look at? What is our next what did I put together for? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So we are really this year trying to do some live episodes at some small businesses in San Francisco. So I put together one about how alcohol has shaped the politics of history. And we're really looking to do this at like a wine bar. Dude, we should have my friend Tom. Oh, yeah, Tom would be great. That'd be perfect. So I also did one around food, the politics of food. And so we are currently looking for both a wine bar or a bar and a restaurant where we can do these live episodes. Y'all are invited to be great.
SPEAKER_00Happy hundredth episode, dog. Look at us. Yeah, it's like a hundred years.
SPEAKER_01We've been going for hundreds of years. Feels like a hundred years. Yes, like the Titanic. So we hope you enjoyed this episode. We hope you enjoy all of our episodes. We encourage you to become a part of our community on TikTok, where we seem to have the most reach and influence. That's Twat T W A T J C at TikTok. And then we're also on YouTube, which is a fucking battlefield. Can't tell who's a bot, who isn't. They say the meanest shit to me. That's all right. We can take it. We're gonna get through. Uh we had to we had to um walk this minefield at first with TikTok as well. We're gonna get there. Um, Instagram, there's shit going on there too. They're mean on Instagram too. They're fucking awesome on Instagram too. It's all these like like heinous. It's either a bot or it's some heinous basement troll who's like, oh, a pretty girl, I'm going to tear her down. And and don't uh like fucked with how I put my lipstick on.
SPEAKER_00I'm all Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01I know. Like that is so specific. It makes me think it's a bot. I'm like, what the actual bot. Oh, you don't like my lipstick. But you know what? We come at them just as hard. It's like how is my I am your defender. You are. How's mom's basement today? Did she make you meatloaf? How is Russia this time of the year? Thanks for generating traffic or sending traffic to our channel with your stupid ass comment because they don't seem to realize or care that even negative comments drive people to your channel, your page, whatever the case may be. Thanks, fuck faces. All right, y'all. We'll see you uh next week or the week after. Yeah. Bye.