During this episode, I talk with Kelsi Grove (she/her), LCPC, about the Enneagram. Kelsi and I dive in and go through the Enneagram types and how understanding these numbers can improve your relationships, your business and leadership.
Kelsi is an Enneagram 9 and licensed clinical professional counselor in the Kansas City area specializing in adolescents and adults with anxiety, depression, life transitions and identity work. She's continually excited to get to bring the Enneagram into her counseling work and continue her own growth through it as well. Her most favorite part of her work is getting to help people come home to themselves. Outside of her career, she enjoys college football, summer thunderstorms and re-reading Glennon Doyle's "Untamed" over and over.
TOPICS IN THIS EPISODE:
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
· Kelsi’s website
· Jennifer Agee coaching page
· Counseling Community Facebook community
· Counseling Community Instagram
· Alaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023
· Cabo, Mexico: Dreamer’s Retreat for Entrepreneurial Therapists October 6-8, 2022
During this episode, I talk with Kelsi Grove (she/her), LCPC, about the Enneagram. Kelsi and I dive in and go through the Enneagram types and how understanding these numbers can improve your relationships, your business and leadership.
Kelsi is an Enneagram 9 and licensed clinical professional counselor in the Kansas City area specializing in adolescents and adults with anxiety, depression, life transitions and identity work. She's continually excited to get to bring the Enneagram into her counseling work and continue her own growth through it as well. Her most favorite part of her work is getting to help people come home to themselves. Outside of her career, she enjoys college football, summer thunderstorms and re-reading Glennon Doyle's "Untamed" over and over.
TOPICS IN THIS EPISODE:
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
· Kelsi’s website
· Jennifer Agee coaching page
· Counseling Community Facebook community
· Counseling Community Instagram
· Alaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023
· Cabo, Mexico: Dreamer’s Retreat for Entrepreneurial Therapists October 6-8, 2022
[00:00:04] Jennifer Agee: Hello. Hello and welcome to Sh*t You Wished You Learned in Grad School. I am your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. With me today is Kelsi. I'm so excited. Kelsi Grove is with us today. She's a licensed clinical professional counselor, amazing human being. Kelsi is an Enneagram Type 9. She's in Kansas City, specializing in adolescents and adults with anxiety, depression, and life transitions, including identity work. She's excited to bring the Enneagram into her counseling work and to continue her own growth through it as well. So, Kelsi, welcome to the show.
[00:00:43] Kelsi Grove: Hello. It's so great to be here.
[00:00:45] Jennifer Agee: Good. Thanks for coming on. So, Kelsi, what is it that you wished you would have learned in grad school?
[00:00:51] Kelsi Grove: So, I wish that I had learned about the Enneagram, this personality type theory that has blown my mind time and time over again. And I've been able to see a ton of really meaningful progress with my clients. So, I definitely wish I would have learned about that back then.
[00:01:08] Jennifer Agee: All right. What is the Enneagram exactly? Like, give me an overview. Pretend I know nothing.
[00:01:14] Kelsi Grove: Like you’re five?
[00:01:15] Jennifer Agee: Exactly.
[00:01:16] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Um, okay. So, the Enneagram is a personality type theory. So oftentimes when I say that, or when people say that in general, most people think things like the NBTI or like the StrengthsFinder stuff, which those are also type theories, but, um, are a little bit different. So, the Enneagram is based in your kind of underlying motivation. So, the why behind our behaviors and the way we see the world. So, it goes a little bit deeper, a lot, bit deeper than, um, most other personality type theories.
[00:01:48] Jennifer Agee: Okay. And from my understanding of the Enneagram, everyone has a primary type and then they a wing, they call it a wing, right?
[00:01:57] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. So, there's actually, I won't get into too much detail cause there's just a ton of information, but there's lots of different ways that you're connected to other numbers on the Enneagram. So, you do have your core type, which is based on your core fear and then your core desire or motivation. Um, and then the numbers on either side of your type. So as a 9, I have 8 and 1 right next to me. We tend to pull some of those characteristics and that's what we call our wing. Um...
[00:02:24] Jennifer Agee: Okay.
[00:02:24] Kelsi Grove: The goal is to try and have kind of balanced wings. You want two wings if possible. Otherwise, you're just kind of, you know, flopping around, but I think most people have one that tends to be more dominant.
[00:02:34] Jennifer Agee: Okay. So, I've taken some online tests for the Enneagram to see what I am. My primary type that I've come up with– I've actually gotten two different answers. The one that I've got the most was a 7 and I also did get a 3, which when I read the descriptions, neither one of them totally surprised me, but 7 is the one that most consistently comes up for me.
[00:02:55] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. So, tests are a great place to start. Um, the pitfall of testing for your type is that it's really hard to make a testing instrument that can measure underlying motivation, right? So that's why oftentimes when you take a test, you get like a percentage of each, you know, type and you have your one that is, that your highest percentage. So that doesn't necessarily mean that that is your type. I think it's probably likely, but I like to tell people to use tests as a starting point, and then really dig into whatever ones are coming up most often or if you have two or three that are usually your highest percentages, then you can kind of dig into some reading and some self-exploring and see which one of those really fits best at your core.
[00:03:37] Jennifer Agee: Perfect. Um, okay. So, can you give us a quick little overview of what the different types are? And then let's dig in and see how this applies both to working with clients and as business owners.
[00:03:49] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. So, um, I'll go over the core fear, the core desire, and then, um, a few like strengths of each type, cause I really like to use the Enneagram from a strengths-based perspective. Um, so we'll start with 1s. Their core fear is of being corrupt or evil or defective. So, um, the sort of opposite of that, their core desire being to have integrity, to be what's considered morally good. So, they're always looking to kind of fix, and that either goes inward; I need to fix things about myself to be good, or I need to fix things around me, people around me, situations around me to be good. Um, some strengths of the 1s. They are very purposeful, mission-driven, and super detail-oriented. 2s, their core fear is being unwanted or unworthy of love, and their core desire is to feel loved and wanted. Um, so strengths of 2s, they're very compassionate, understanding, generous. They're sort of, um, nickname is "the helper," which tends to fit usually.
[00:04:46] Jennifer Agee: That sounds like a very therapist-y, uh, Enneagram number.
[00:04:50] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. 2s are really interesting. A lot of women mistype as 2s, at first, just because a lot of the qualities that twos have are kind of what are expected of us, um, socially in a lot of ways and culturally.
[00:05:01] Jennifer Agee: That makes sense.
[00:05:02] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Um, Enneagram 3s, their core fear is of being worthless, um, or having no worth. Its core desire is to feel valued. Um, 3s are very driven and likable, growth-minded, they're go-getters, um, and very adaptable. So they tend to adapt to their environments in whatever way they think is going to be most valued by that situation.
[00:05:25] Jennifer Agee: And that makes sense why a 3 often ranks high for me. Those, those definitely do describe me. And it also strikes me that that core fear is, that's wounding, that's like childhood trauma kind of stuff coming up.
[00:05:40] Kelsi Grove: Right. Yes. Yes. And I think I, you know, I have so much, I have compassion for all the types, but 3s really kind of hold a special place in my heart too, because, and in our social makeup specifically in our culture, in the U S with capitalism, we really like, their maladaptive behaviors to protect that core wound, get reinforced all the time. Like we want people to be super driven and grinding and at the expense of themselves. And you're not worthy until you achieve this and all of those things. So, it's extra, I think life's a little extra hard for 3s in a lot of ways.
[00:06:12] Jennifer Agee: A little workaholic-y, it sounds like.
[00:06:15] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Yeah. And people get a lot of praise for that. So...
[00:06:18] Jennifer Agee: I've fallen into that trap more than once. Maturity has definitely helped, but it's an easy trap to fall into. Makes total sense to me.
[00:06:26] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 4s um, their core fear is of being insignificant or without identity. So, their core desire being to find themselves, quote unquote, find themselves and their significance, um, strengths. They're very deep thinkers. They are very honest with themselves. So, they have a lot of self-awareness because they're doing so much internal searching for whatever they feel like is missing. Um, and very inspired, a lot of creatives, a lot of artists, um, kind of fall under that 4 type a lot of times.
[00:06:57] Jennifer Agee: That was exactly what was springing to my mind. As you were reading that off, I thought that sounds definitely like the creative types.
[00:07:04] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, absolutely. Um, 5, so core fear 5s are of being incapable, being useless or helpless. Their core desire is to be capable and confident in themselves. Um, so 5s, strength-wise, are super curious. Um, they're figure-outers, they're visionary, and they're really similar to 4s, but in a little bit of a different, or for a different purpose because of that motivation is different, very contemplative. So definitely okay with being up in their heads and reading everything there is, finding all the information there is to know about what questions they have.
[00:07:41] Jennifer Agee: Deep thinkers but logic driven.
[00:07:44] Kelsi Grove: Yes. Yes. They want, they want to stay up in their head and think because they want to feel confident and competent. Whereas 4s are looking for that missing piece that they're perceiving.
[00:07:54] Jennifer Agee: I'll tell you what, as a clinical supervisor, as you're reading these off, I am thinking of different supervisees I have that are popping into my head with each of these.
[00:08:02] Kelsi Grove: Yup. Yup. Yeah. I actually, you know, I hadn't ever thought of that being in that specific way, like for a supervisor to know their supervisees’ types. That could be really useful in supervision, I think.
[00:08:14] Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I might, I might see how I can incorporate that. Because as you're describing them, faces are definitely popping in my head.
[00:08:21] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Yeah. And we can talk more about why that's, I think the overlap there is why it's so useful in therapy too, and getting to know your clients, and asking the right questions, and things like that.
[00:08:31] Jennifer Agee: For sure.
[00:08:32] Kelsi Grove: Um, all right. Enneagram 6s. So, I might spend just a hair longer on these because there's a counter type to the 6s, and it looks very different than your kind of typical 6. So overall core fear of the 6 is of being unsupported or without guidance. Core desire is to have that security and support. So, the counterphobic 6 sort of approaches their fear like the Hulk. So, they want to run right towards it. They want to smash it. They want to defeat it. That can look like a lot of different things. But the main point is that, um, they're still acting from a place of fear of being unsupported or without guidance. So, I, I don't want to say a normal 6, but a phobic 6 often looks a little bit more anxious or planful, always thinking 10 steps ahead with plans A through Z. They're your apocalypse planners. You definitely want one of them with you if that's what's going to happen.
[00:09:28] Jennifer Agee: Cause if the bottom falls out, they've already thought about it and come up with plans for what they're going to do.
[00:09:34] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Yeah. They have the go bags. Yep. So, the counterphobic 6 is still acting from that place of fear, but they're going to be the ones, you know, running out into the mess of it all and kind of facing it head on.
[00:09:43] Jennifer Agee: Okay.
[00:09:44] Kelsi Grove: Um, strengths of 6s. They're very loyal, practical, and great troubleshooters. Um, 7s, their core fear is a feeling pain or feeling deprived. So, the core desire being to feel content, satisfied, and fulfilled. Sevens, I find are the easiest people to pick out in a crowd of people that don't know their Enneagram types. If you know someone who is the life of the party, rocks this whole like trip planning situation, they've got all the activities lined up and ready to go and are super excited about it, um, and they always have something going on. So those...
[00:10:17] Jennifer Agee: Oh my word. I feel so called out. I feel so called out right now.
[00:10:21] Kelsi Grove: Yep. Yep. Yep. So 7s bring a lot of energy and it's great. Um, there's, you know, a downside to that too. When you are limiting yourself to trying to not feel feelings that are uncomfortable, then you're kind of missing half the human spectrum of emotions. Um, so that's kind of the 7s work, but, um, strengths, they're very optimistic, versatile, enthusiastic. Yeah. They're really fun, fun to be around, fun to have.
[00:10:45] Jennifer Agee: Well, I think so.
[00:10:46] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, that feels good to hear, huh?
[00:10:49] Jennifer Agee: Feels good to hear as a 7.
[00:10:50] Kelsi Grove: That's right. Um, okay, 8-
[00:10:52] Jennifer Agee: I'll tell you, as a, as a 7, it does not occur to me why anyone would not want to be a 7, kind of like the extroverted mentality. I understand why people are introverted and that we're all just born the way we are. But from a, like a base perspective, I'm like, well, why wouldn't everyone want to be extroverted? It's so much fun to invite everyone to everything. And yeah. Definitely calling me out on that.
[00:11:15] Kelsi Grove: Yes. And, you know, introverted 7s do exist, and they can be a little bit trickier to spot because of that. But I think, I would say — I don't have any data on this, but I would say 7s probably tend to be more extroverted in general.
[00:11:28] Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
[00:11:28] Kelsi Grove: Yup. Um, okay. So 8s, core fear is being controlled or harmed by others. And their core desire is to be in control of themselves, their destiny, pretty much in control of everything that they possibly can be. This kind of, I like to point out like, that one of the options for like kind of a childhood wound with the 8s, because they can get, especially as women, they can get a little bit of a bad rep because they are very direct, and outspoken, and, you know, not afraid to set boundaries, and all that kind of stuff. And so, they can come off as kind of crass, if you will. Um, but the reason why that control is so important to them is because they learned at some point as a kiddo, that their own, they had to meet their own needs or protect somebody that they perceived as more vulnerable with them. So, a lot of the clients that I've had that are 8s really had some significant- something happened where they had to grow up really, really quickly. So, in that context, it's not surprising that then you want to have as much control as possible to feel safe.
[00:12:23] Jennifer Agee: Are there a lot of protectors that fall into this category, like, careers that are first responders and things like that? Cause as you're speaking, it sounds a lot like first responders.
[00:12:34] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't know, but I, I'd be really curious about that. I think another way that you can kind of split up the types is how you, like there's assertive and withdrawing, um, different types fall into those different categories. And so, I would think a lot of assertive types, um, 8s, 1s, and 3s probably would be first responders and the people that are willing to go straight into the fire literally, or metaphorically.
[00:12:59] Jennifer Agee: That makes sense.
[00:13:00] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Um, some strengths of the 8s, they're assertive, very confident, and decisive. They're actually really a lot of fun to have in therapy, I think. So, shout out to the 8s.
[00:13:10] Jennifer Agee: What do you like about having the 8s?
[00:13:12] Kelsi Grove: They'll just take and, well, if you can meet them where they're at and be willing to like challenge them and call them on their bullshit, then they'll really take that and run with it. And I think in my experience, that's built trust really quickly with 8s. They're like, oh, okay, you're going to, you're going to go head on with me, and I can appreciate that.
[00:13:29] Jennifer Agee: Well, and I could imagine that it also might feel like you can handle it.
[00:13:33] Kelsi Grove: Yes. Yeah. It almost creates that holding space for them to access their vulnerability, which is really what kind of the core work for an 8 is too, is being able to feel vulnerable and let someone be a safe space for you.
[00:13:46] Jennifer Agee: That makes sense, because if you are more protective in nature or the one who sees themselves as responsible for others, it takes a lot of strength from somebody else in order for them to probably let that guard down and trust that in that space, they don't have to hold that responsibility.
[00:14:03] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a huge, it's a huge step for, I mean, most people, but 8s, especially to even come into therapy because that's an inherently super vulnerable thing.
[00:14:12] Jennifer Agee: Sure. We've all been there.
[00:14:15] Kelsi Grove: Yep. Absolutely. Um, and then 9s. So, core fear for 9s is of loss and separation. And, um, I see a lot of people get this wrong. A lot of people think that 9's core fear is conflict, but it's actually the loss or separation that could come from conflict. That is the fear under the fear, which I feel like is an important distinction. Um, their core desire is to have inner stability. We like outer stability and harmony too, but really underneath it all is what we, what we want is to feel kind of content and peaceful and, um, like, harmonious inside of ourselves. Um, so 9s tend to be very accepting, very stable, supportive, sometimes at their own expense. Any of the type strengths that I've pointed out, like in too much, it is going to be kind of like an Achilles heel situation. And that's where we kind of get stuck in our patterns. Um, so that can go for everybody.
[00:15:07] Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I mean, anything taken to an extreme usually bites us in the butt.
[00:15:11] Kelsi Grove: Right. Absolutely.
[00:15:12] Jennifer Agee: So how have clients responded when you have started talking to them about their types or bringing that into the work that you do?
[00:15:19] Kelsi Grove: So, I always offer it as an option. I don't force it on my clients. Um, I do, you know, I advertise myself as an Enneagram-informed therapist, so there have been some people that seek me out for that specifically. But I kind of just gently presented as like, hey, here's this tool, here's kind of what it means, and how I can see it being helpful in getting to know you better and quicker and helping you get to know yourself better and quicker. Um, and for the most part, I mean, oh, I don't know. I don't, probably don't have a percentage in my head, but a good majority of my clients are at least curious enough to look it up and explore it some. And then usually for the most part, once they get going, it it's down the rabbit hole we go, which is my favorite thing ever.
[00:15:59] Jennifer Agee: Down the rabbit hole, we go.
[00:16:02] Kelsi Grove: Yep.
[00:16:03] Jennifer Agee: You're right. Because we all want to be seen, heard, and understood, right? And sometimes these, these understandings through personality assessment or reflection, help us to feel like we're not alone in the way that we are in the world. And that in and of itself can be really powerful to know that other people are doing this or be able to reflect on oh, X, Y or Z person is the same type, and I see these great qualities in them. It can also be encouraging, I would imagine.
[00:16:31] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, absolutely. It's, you feel like you belong. I feel like people either, and may actually probably have both of these reactions at one point or another, you feel very seen and heard and understood and like you belong. And then once you start diving into it, it can start to feel a little bit of like a box. And I've definitely had people, and I've experienced this too, feeling almost like, well, I'm this type, and so I'm kind of stuck in these ways, especially once you start noticing all your, your patterns and your tendencies and things like that. But that's where, using this in therapy, I feel like that's where the magic really starts to happen because once you know your box and you have that awareness, then here's all these different ways we can step out of it or choose when to be in it. What's helpful? What's not helpful? What patterns do I want to keep? Which ones do I want to ditch? That's probably my favorite part.
[00:17:18] Jennifer Agee: Yeah. It almost sounds like understanding your type, is kind of understanding what your default setting is. Where do we tend to go to naturally and intuitively? And that doesn't mean that we don't evolve, grow, change, and move around in different ways. But we have this internal default setting built into our core personality.
[00:17:38] Kelsi Grove: A hundred percent. It becomes kind of our, our baseline. Yeah. Default state. I like, I like that wording a lot.
[00:17:44] Jennifer Agee: So, how do you think, as therapists, because mostly therapists are the ones that are listening to the podcast, how do you think that a therapist understanding their own type could be helpful for them as business owners? Again, most people listening to this run a private practice or group practice. Um, how could this help?
[00:18:04] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, so, I mean, I think the more you know about yourself, period, the just the more informed you are and can make decisions that are based in values, and, you know, when to kind of, knowing more about when to push yourself, when to pull back some, and the Enneagram gives us language to so much of that. So like as a 9, I am prone to being very comfortable with not, you know, not pushing myself for full-time, or I can at least convince myself that I am happy with where I'm at, even though I might have bigger dreams in the back of my head that just feel like, you know, too much work, too much effort, and/or who am I to have those big dreams. So understanding where those sorts of doubts come from and why, having that language around that allows me to kind of diffuse from some of those limiting beliefs that I have, and with that, then I can push myself a little harder or I can say, you know, I'm noticing in my gut that this isn't feeling right. And as a 9, I'm learning to trust that intuition more. So maybe I need to pull back some.
[00:19:05] Jennifer Agee: I, I really appreciate what you said. And taking it a step further, I could see, as a small group practice owner, which I am, how understanding the different types of my team members could be helpful and useful to make sure we have a well-rounded team. Or who do I go to for certain things? Who's more naturally enthusiastic about planning the get together? Who might be, um, better suited for a different task? And recognizing that other people- everybody brings strengths to the table. We already know that, but this is just another way to help recognize strengths and promote healthy conversation.
[00:19:42] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, I think, um, I'm so glad you brought that up because it really does help us understand people we're in relationships with, and it helps them understand us better too. I would say probably most of my clients, if they're partnered or if they just have, you know, siblings that they're close with or everyone, once they start digging into this stuff, they want to know everyone's types around them because there's just such a wealth of knowledge that comes with that. And with the knowledge, then we hope comes, you know, understanding, compassion, kindness towards other people, because, um — I said this in another podcast I was in — I really try to not hold lightly like when someone tells me their type, because we say it in conversation all the time, especially if you're familiar with it. But when you tell me what your type is, you just told me what your worst fear is and what you want most in life, which is the...
[00:20:27] Jennifer Agee: Vulnerable.
[00:20:28] Kelsi Grove: Right. That's really, really sacred information. So...
[00:20:32] Jennifer Agee: And if I reflect on my types, I can immediately think, I understand, uh, in part, why I chose the spouse that I chose, right? I'm an entrepreneur. I'm very driven. I'm a high risk-taker because I'm willing to go after a dream. Um, but I need someone that tethers me to earth. I need someone who's the slow and steady wins the race, so I have that base of security to then feel confident taking more risks. I'm totally going to make my husband take a test or read over them when he gets home tonight.
[00:21:03] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Yeah. And understanding, using this as a tool to understand that people were in really, really close relationship, I think is just so valuable for that reason exactly. Because even what you said just now, it's like, you could just appreciate so much more when you have this like, sort of shared language too, and it gives you this whole other book of communication to work from when both people know their type.
[00:21:27] Jennifer Agee: That makes perfect sense. What do you think is the most helpful thing for other therapists when you're speaking with them about understanding the Enneagram? What do you really want them to know or take away from it?
[00:21:41] Kelsi Grove: For themselves or for their clients or for both?
[00:21:43] Jennifer Agee: Let's do both.
[00:21:45] Kelsi Grove: Let's do both. Um, so, as a therapist, knowing your type, I think what I would want you to take most away from it for yourself is understanding kind of what, having that awareness to understand what kind of roadblocks that might bring up when you're working with people. I keep bringing, I keep using myself as an example because that's what I know best. But so, like, as a 9, it's really hard for me — it can be if I'm not aware of this — to challenge clients. And that can be such a valuable thing. Like I was saying earlier, connecting with my 8 clients, I think if I didn't have the understanding of my 9-ness and that's an area that I have to lean a little harder into more intentionally to push them in order to connect with them, I don't think I would, I probably wouldn't be as good of a fit for somebody who needs that. And so each type is going to have their kind of default state. And to know that allows you to step out of that in some ways to meet people, better meet people where you're at, where they're at as clients.
[00:22:45] Jennifer Agee: Well, and so, yeah, of course, we're going to talk about ourselves because that's our, you know, that's where we have most of our information from. So, in speaking for myself as a therapist, I am more prone to be more direct because of my personality type. And so sometimes I have to be very intentional to put my tongue on the roof of my mouth and just shut my cake hole because I might want to push things along faster than is wise for a client to move.
[00:23:10] Kelsi Grove: Exactly. And if you like, so if I frame that in the lens of a type 3, when your biggest desire is to feel valued, you might feel, you might have that subconscious like push, like, oh, I need to give them all this information. Or I need to make them progress in this way. And they need to see this much, these many changes by session four to make you feel valued as a therapist, but that might not be what they need at all.
[00:23:33] Jennifer Agee: Right. So, it becomes a place where you have more awareness to know where your own shit can come in and get in the way.
[00:23:40] Kelsi Grove: Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be, that would be the biggest thing I would want people to take away. That's certainly one of the biggest things I've taken away.
[00:23:47] Jennifer Agee: Okay. Very cool. And then, what are you enjoying the most about doing the Enneagram work? Because you also do Enneagram coaching, which is an emerging field, for sure. I've started to see that pop up, so it's another area of getting training that you can be marketable in. But tell me a little bit about that.
[00:24:04] Kelsi Grove: So I am, I'm working on the coaching side of things still, haven't launched that, but I've got, I've got a program in the works, so, um, I mean, I really, my own experience of having an Enneagram coach and being kind of on the client side of things, is it doesn't, you know, it really doesn't look a whole lot different than therapy other than you're very focused in on like this structure specifically with the Enneagram and kind of exploring that. Um, does that answer your question?
[00:24:32] Jennifer Agee: I guess I'm just trying to figure out what's the difference between, um, going to counseling and having a therapist that integrates Enneagram versus Enneagram coaching?
[00:24:43] Kelsi Grove: Mm okay. I would likely say kind of the timeframe would probably be different. I would see coaching as more kind of, you know, um, education and solution focus. Like let's explore some of these things, here's some tools I can give you, and then you kind of go and run with it. Or even take that to your therapist and continue processing and figuring out like, oh, this came from my childhood and my trauma and all that kind of stuff. So I would say, not that coaching is more surface level because I don't think that's true, but it's more solution-oriented versus bringing the Enneagram into therapy might look a little bit more like exploration and digging around and kind of moving into a transformative space over more time.
[00:25:23] Jennifer Agee: Okay. I could see that. For like, for you personally, what has started to come from you studying the Enneagram? Like what ways are you personally being transformed by this knowledge that you started to gain about yourself?
[00:25:39] Kelsi Grove: Oh, that's a... where do I start with that? That's a big question. Uh, it's really felt like an uncovering for me, kind of a digging off the topsoil layers. And I always ended up going back to a plant analogy. This has happened several times over the last few months, but it's going back, it's allowing me to go back to my roots. And it's not necessarily digging them up and replanting, though that could be part of the journey for sure. It's, you know, understanding how to care for them better because I know myself better.
[00:26:15] Jennifer Agee: Yeah. So, it's how to nurture yourself better.
[00:26:17] Kelsi Grove: Absolutely. And so much of that has come from, you know, being able to have compassion and understanding for why my default state is what it is, and where that's come from, and how it served me, and how it no longer does in a lot of ways. So then having that power to choose when I want to do it differently.
[00:26:36] Jennifer Agee: Yeah. So, Kelsi and I actually know each other in real life, so she knows this about me, I'm a huge fan of inner child work. So that, that is one of my go-tos for therapy, a lot of the time. I love doing inner child work. And as you're talking about the different types and the journey that you've been on, it makes me think that as we understand where our pain points are with our numbers and types, that often that, that is probably from wounding that we, that we encountered earlier in life or different phases of life. And for me, it would help me to go, okay, what area might I need to explore with the client to find out where the childhood wound is, the inner child wound is that needs to be, um, nurtured or healed or released?
[00:27:20] Kelsi Grove: Yes, absolutely. There's a whole sort of subset theory under the Enneagram called the soul child theory. And so, you even have a little bit of a parameter and roadmap to go to. So as a 9, my soul child type is a 3, which means that I, you know, maybe started in the world with more 3-ish tendencies, less afraid to be out there and motivated and take up space. And then at some point as a child, I, I heard the message, whether it was said explicitly or not, I internalized it that taking up space means, you know, there's conflict or it creates discord in my environment. And so, you get smaller and smaller. So even with the inner child work, I mean, on the sort of diagram of the Enneagram, you've got kind of a growth map to go to.
[00:28:05] Jennifer Agee: I am going to have to nerd out on this hard because it sounds right up my alley. I mean, that sounds super fascinating to me. Yeah, I didn't even know there was such a thing, so thank you for that.
[00:28:14] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, you're welcome. I use it when I do inner child work with clients that know their Enneagram type pretty well. I, I use it.
[00:28:21] Jennifer Agee: I could see how that could be incredibly helpful, because even when you're starting to do work with clients, a lot of times they know that there's discomfort in their life or they know things, aren't the way they wish they would be. But it's hard sometimes to identify what that root is of where that's coming from. Is it, unworthy, unlovable? You know, the list goes on, but it's hard sometimes for people to have that awareness of where that is. And so I like that the Enneagram provides the pain points and the strengths because it gives us a place to kind of life hack and get there a little bit faster maybe.
[00:28:53] Kelsi Grove: Yeah, it's a, it gives you your starting point in a lot of ways. That's actually one way I kind of describe it to clients when I'm bringing it up, like, in our first session or two. Um, I'm like it's a little bit of a sh- a shortcut for me to know what kind of questions, where I kind of need to poke around or help you explore, or even what kind of questions I'm asking. And it's not to say that by knowing your type, I'm going to know everything about you, but it gives us a clearer path to at least start down on together.
[00:29:21] Jennifer Agee: I can completely see that. That makes perfect sense to me. Um, Kelsi, I could talk to you all day about this because it's fascinating, and I think understanding about personality and personality development and where it comes from is super, super interesting, but I also want to respect your time. How can people get in touch with you?
[00:29:40] Kelsi Grove: So, I'm on Instagram. Um, my business page is @Grovecounseling. I think my Facebook page is the same, but I'm definitely not as active on that as I am on Instagram.
[00:29:51] Jennifer Agee: Yeah. You're an Instagrammer for sure. And I'll put her links in the bio down below. Um, so thank you so much for coming. If you want to connect more with the podcast or connect more with me or the retreats that we have going on counselingcommunity.com. We're also on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, but don't judge me on there, people. Do not judge me, okay? I'm doing my best. An old dog is learning new tricks. Anyway, I thank you again for coming on Kelsi. And for everyone listening, get out there and live your best dang life.