Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School with Jennifer Agee, LCPC

Episode 22: Imposter Syndrome featuring Patrick Casale

September 14, 2022 Jennifer Agee, LCPC Season 1 Episode 22
Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School with Jennifer Agee, LCPC
Episode 22: Imposter Syndrome featuring Patrick Casale
Show Notes Transcript

During this episode, I talk with Patrick Casale, LCMHC, LCAS (he/him) about Imposter Syndrome. Patrick is the owner of All Things Private Practice and Resilient Mind Counseling. Patrick works as a Private Practice Coach and Strategist, and is also a Group Practice Owner, Motivational Speaker, Retreat Planner, and Podcast Host. He has been featured on Private Practice Startup, Abundance Practice Building, Therapy Reimagined, Not Your Typical Psychotherapist, Selling The Couch, and Modern Therapists.

Patrick is a passionate advocate, reducing shame and stigma of mental health, as well as impostor syndrome. Patrick helps mental health entrepreneurs break the mold, work through their fears and insecurities, and to embrace their Authenticity


Jennifer: Hello Hello and welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I’m your host Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor, and with me today is Patrick Casale. Patrick is a good friend of mine, he is also a coach, a group practice owner, a podcast host, retreat planner, and speaker. He is based out of Asheville, North Carolina. He is the owner of All Things private practice and Resilient Mind Counseling. So welcome to the podcast.

Patrick: Thanks for having me, Jen. I appreciate being here

Absolutely. So Patrick, today we are gonna talk about imposter syndrome. Both of us are entrepreneurs, we're therapists, and imposter syndrome is something behind the scenes you and I have talked about a lot. So I'm looking forward to really exploring this topic a little bit more because I know if we deal with it, a lot of other people do too.

Patrick: Yeah. It's definitely a big topic of conversation in the entrepreneurial world and the therapist world. And I love talking about this.

Jennifer: What is imposter syndrome? So let's define it for the listeners.

Patrick: Yeah. So a lot of people probably who are listening may not have heard it, or have heard the term thrown around loosely and imposter syndrome is the feeling of inadequacy, incompetence, feelings of fraudulence. Like I don't belong here, I just lucked into my success, I'm not as competent as everyone around. It happens a lot in our field for the most part when you're thinking about going out and starting your private practice journey or growing your business, or even getting a job where you are surrounded by people who have higher education and more certifications or licenses than you. And that self-doubt, that perfectionism that, oh no, oh shit, I don't know as much as all of these people who are here with me or I don't have enough training or I just lucked into being here, maybe they just like picked me unexpectedly, but ultimately it's a lot of those feelings.

Jennifer: Yeah. And it strikes me that it really can come from two places, right? That inner critic that comes from a lot of times, our childhood wounding and different things like that, that strong inner critic, but then also that compare and despair, that comparison is a thief of joy type of thing.

Patrick: Oh yeah. That comparison trap happens a lot, especially when we're comparing ourselves on social media, to what other people are doing and how we feel like we're not doing enough, or we haven't had enough success or there's something wrong with what we're doing. That really starts to creep up and it really takes over, I mean it can be very, very paralyzing.

Jennifer: Yeah. That old saying: quit comparing someone else's front of the house to yours, behind the scenes. And I think because we are friends, we've talked a lot about this. Both of us are very successful in our careers, and we've been very fortunate, and we've also worked our ass off to get there, right? But behind the scenes, there are these moments of holy crap, maybe I should just push carts at the airport because I don't, what am I even doing here? Like, those are very normal thoughts for a lot of people who are swinging for the fences and are trying to go after their vision or their dream.

Patrick: Absolutely. And I think it can create this self-doubt and this loop of, I can't even put my ideas out to the world because they're just not gonna be good enough, or people aren't gonna receive them well, or things aren't gonna take off for me the way they have for somebody else, or even the thought of like, my ideas are better suited for somebody else. I think it happens a lot when people are thinking, okay I wanna start my private practice, but I have this really cool idea, but I don't think I'm the one to implement it, or I wanna start this coaching business, but somebody else already does the thing I want to do, and why would somebody hire me if this person exists? And that happened to me years ago when I was thinking about starting a private practice coaching business and helping therapists get up and running. I had already been doing it in Asheville for free, or for lunch or for coffee, but people kept telling me, hey I think you should do this for a living. And my response would be like, nah nobody's gonna pay me or hire me. I mean, Allison Puryear with Abundance Practice Building already exists here. Why would anyone hire me If someone with such a stellar reputation and large following already exists in the same city. And that kept me, that prevented me from doing the thing that I wanted to do for quite some time.

Jennifer: It strikes me too, that like, even as someone who I've received coaching, I know you've received coaching. Going after a big name might actually be very intimidating to someone just starting out. And maybe it's just perfect that someone has a positive reputation, you feel comfortable with them. And maybe they're not the biggest name in the field, but it's someone that you feel comfortable approaching and feel comfortable hiring, and wouldn't feel intimidated to get your own egos kind of entwined in that relationship in the room.

Patrick: Oh yeah. It was definitely a thing for a long time and it was my own shit coming up, my own insecurity and perfectionism coming up too. Like I don't have it all figured out, so why would I ultimately be the one that somebody would hire if you know, someone else has so much more experience and that plagues a lot of our colleagues too, and prevents them from moving forward. So it really is a challenge. And working through this stuff can be really painful because I think a lot of people who experience imposter syndrome, don't often talk about it. They just assume this is just my situation, this is me. Or like, there's something wrong with me or I'm just not talented or smart enough to do the thing and I'm gonna keep it inside and then never put it out to the world. That's really a shame because a lot of people will miss out on all of the beautiful things that everyone has to offer and create with their own unique and individual perspective too.

Jennifer: Yeah, I completely agree. Tell me a little bit about your journey to start to overcome your own imposter syndrome.

Patrick: Yeah, so I noticed it coming up right throughout those years when I'm thinking like, and it would come up in private practice when I was working primarily as a private practice therapist too. A bad clinical interaction, the client doesn't come back, the phone stops ringing, a phone consultation doesn't go well, or you stumble over your words or whatever the case may be. And you're the worst therapist of all time nobody's ever gonna call you again. Like this is clearly a mistake, you shouldn't have quit your agency job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And in reality it was probably just like a bad clinical interaction. And sometimes we as therapists make mistakes or the relationship or the rapport is just not there, and that's okay as well. And I tend to think that's when we start to really feel that imposter syndrome is when the rapport isn't there, but we are looking at it as if we did something clinically. So going through that and then deciding, hey, I don't know if I really want to be a therapist full-time anymore. I want to be doing coaching and podcasting and some other stuff, but telling myself I didn't have enough experience to create it. And I kept telling myself that over and over. Once I decided I'm gonna just put this out to the world, I'm gonna let my Facebook community, which wasn't very large at the time. Hey, I'm gonna start a business to help therapists start their businesses, and the responses were pretty positive. I mean, your Facebook profile page or personal page can be an echo chamber of sorts, and a lot of people on your page are rooting for you. So I don't know what I was so scared of. And then when COVID hit, you know, being inside our houses all the time and just being bored and having so much free time, I started doing Facebook lives on imposter syndrome, and I noticed I was having major imposter syndrome, but I would talk about having imposter syndrome while talking about imposter syndrome. Like, who am I to talk about this thing? I'm not the expert here, so how the hell can I talk about it? You know, Facebook lives, they don't at first gain a lot of audience. I mean, maybe it was like my grandma watching, like, oh the kitchen looks great. And I'm talking about how I'm feeling insecure and anxious about certain things and start doing that more and more and more. And then I started getting text messages, and DMs like, Hey I feel this way too, I didn't realize that that's what this was. And then the more I noticed that I talked about it, the less control and power that it had over me. It didn't mean that it went away, but it meant that I could at least manage to get it out of my head and my body and put it out into the world, which I think really allows us to take back the power in terms of how it kind of makes us feel. And I started doing webinars for therapists on imposter syndrome. The first one was really well attended. I Think about 200 people signed up to come and listen to me talk and I'm nervous as hell, and I record it. And it's like an hour long, and at the end, the feedback was fantastic and people were like, I can't wait to watch this again and again, and I realized I didn't hit the record button and I was like, oh shit. So good, good moment. Like to say in front of 200 people like, hey so I didn't hit record, and that's just the reality here. Then I started getting invited to go on podcasts and speak in other people's coaching programs, or speak at conferences about the subject and suddenly become the expert on imposter syndrome. And I'm thinking to myself, this is just bizarre because I spoke at Therapy Reimagined last September about imposter syndrome and attachment wounding. And I remember just starting off with like, I'm speaking to you about imposter syndrome while having imposter syndrome. It seems really fitting in a lot of ways to know that it will never go away, but that it doesn't have to drive the car, it can be a passenger, and that has helped me significantly.

Jennifer: Yeah. My imposter syndrome, I don't know why this is, but I am very confident to try and start new things in general, and maybe in part that's the entrepreneur in me, maybe that's resiliency built up over the years. I have no idea, but even as a kid, I have never been afraid of trying the new thing, of thinking of something outside the box, and then wanting to go for it, but the imposter syndrome kicks in for me big time, the moment it's actually released to the world. And then there's a little bit of this, oh crap. Can I just suck this back in and take this back? Did anybody actually see that I posted that, or that I released this thing or whatever. But in the beginning I’m full of confidence, when it's in my head, yeah, of course, I'm confident. But then when it's released into the world, that's when it kicks in. And for me, one of the most helpful things is just having a team and tribe around me. I've got good internal dialogue to kind of combat those voices. And if you've listened to my podcast before, you know, when I'm talking to myself in that way, I use my first and middle name. I'll say, Jennifer Marie, come on you know that's not true, but I really need my tribe, like we're in a mastermind group together. Put something in there, get feedback, encouragement, support, honest criticism sometimes. But it's very helpful for me to have people that I know truly aren't BSing me and are giving me honest feedback. So when they say, I really think this is good, or I think this is a great idea, and I like the way you did that, it does help relieve my system a little bit.

Patrick: Yeah. I think it's important to have good support around you, especially when you are struggling with some of the feelings that come up around imposter syndrome. To be able to at least have that support to not only lift you up and encourage you, but like you said, hold you accountable as well. I think it's good to have good mentorship too. Good coaching can certainly help good clinical supervision for those of you who are therapists working in the therapist realm, good case consultation like surrounding yourself with people who are gonna be positive influences but can also remind you of the fact that you know what you're doing, and that it's okay to stumble and make mistakes and doubt yourself. Like that is really a part of the process. So that is a really, really important thing to try to remember. That is one of the things that I really do think is a strategy to combat imposter syndrome, in general, is just good support networks. Those are really, really crucial

Jennifer: Well, and when you are going for new things, you're building up your internal resiliency, right? I love the name of your practice, Resilient Mind, because resiliency is behind a lot of what you do when you're trying new things, right? We've both swung for the fences and failed before, I don't know a single entrepreneur who hasn't, that's a part of the process. Or a single clinician who hasn't been in the room and you thought you had this really brilliant insight and the client's like no, I don't really think that's it. Like we all go for it and sometimes it doesn't work out the way we think it's going to and that's that's okay. We're building resiliency every time we get back up.

Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. And another strategy that I like to use with imposter syndrome is to create a resource bank for yourself to refer back to all the times that you have fallen down and gotten back up. All the times that you did doubt that you were going to succeed or that you were gonna fail this class or not make it through grad school or not get the job or not learn how to do the job. There's so many examples of times where we are having imposter syndrome and self-doubt and insecurity, and then a month later we're like in a routine and we're like, oh yeah, this class is pretty easy. Or whatever the case may be, this job is like clockwork now, but it's really normal when we're trying new things to make mistakes and to fail. And I don't think we talk enough about failure either. And I think giving yourself permission to fail when starting something new is also really, really crucial.

Absolutely. Yeah, I love the idea of a resiliency bank. I might call it a win list, and it reminds me of something that my husband actually does when working in corporate America, right? They always have these end-of-the-year reviews. And most of the companies now require you to do your own review, which I personally think is crap, but whatever. And so basically you gotta be your own hype man when you go into the meeting, like justifying why you should get the top percentage of increase or whatever. And so throughout the year, you have to create a list of these things that you created, you did, these problems that you solved, or else by the end of the year, you're not gonna remember them. So maybe therapists need to start a tab on their phone, in their note section, or even on their computer of wins.

Patrick: You got to, you have to remind yourself of that, just because this field is too challenging and too stressful. There's just too many moments where we doubt ourselves and consider changing professions. The burnout rates are high. I mean, it's so easy to be self-deprecating in this field and any helping profession really, but there's a heightened sensitivity too, that comes with being a helping professional and heightened intuition. So I think that we experience emotions differently in a lot of ways. And that insecurity, that rejection dysphoria, that feeling of self-doubt, that stuff is intensified. So you really have to have, almost similar to EMDR, any sort of resourcing. Like being able to be mindful about the fact that I'm experiencing this feeling, but I've experienced this before when I did A, B, and C, and that was scary then, and I did it and it's still scary, but that doesn't mean that it has to paralyze me and prevent me from actually pursuing the things that I want to do.

Jennifer: Absolutely. You mentioned earlier that you spoke about attachment wounding and imposter syndrome, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Patrick: Yeah. I started thinking about it, you know, when I got selected to speak and then I started having major imposter syndrome, like, I've never spoken at a conference, I don't know what to do, I don't know the expectations. And I start going into perfectionism mode, which is my default. I started to think there's gotta be a reason this exists. And for a lot of you listening, you know, who are in the helping profession, you are probably female-identifying. A lot of the research on imposter syndrome comes from women in the workplace saying like women, especially women of color, you weren't allowed to be here. And now you are, of course, you are feeling inadequate or like I don't belong, or I don't have as much training or whatever the case may be. And that makes total sense, but I started to think about deeper layered attachment wounds. So growing up, if your parents didn't talk to you about failure or making mistakes, and it was only like you either get an A, or it's a failure, or like you don't score a goal in soccer, it's a failure and you do the thing and try, but you don't succeed it's a failure. And instead of having it reframed as in like, maybe like this isn't your strong suit, maybe we can adapt how we kind of, go at this thing, maybe there's just a different perspective to be had. If we think about it with parents sending messages like, oh, you've gotten A in English, but a D in math, I thought you were smart. There are a lot of ways that these messages in childhood are very wounding and impact our sense of self. So as we grow and develop our attachment systems, are working out of regulation and we're struggling with either insecure or unhealthy or avoidant attachment, and we are correlating our sense of self to our sense of accomplishment. And I think imposter syndrome comes up when we start to feel like that, and we start to get kind of transported back to childhood wounding and messaging, especially if it wasn't congruent. Now, if you had a parent or a family member or a caregiver, you fall off your bike and they're like, it's okay, it's normal to fall off your bike, that's what happens when you try something new, you fall down and get back up. That's a very different reframe than like you fall off your bike and your parent says like, you clearly are stupid, or you don't know how to ride, or I'm teaching you the right way or whatever the case may be. So I really do think it comes back to healthy attachment styles and development in terms of how messaging has been received and that also develops over time into teenage years and adolescence and early adulthood. We have a lot of societal messaging too. We have a lot of messaging in the media about how you're supposed to be and act and how you're supposed to be successful. And I think it sends the wrong message for people, especially if you're saying like, if I start something and it doesn't go well, then I'm a failure. That's really problematic thinking because failure is actually quite normal and part of the process.

Jennifer: Absolutely. And I think it's important for therapists who have also gone before. Like, you know, I talk openly about the fact that I am now a middle-aged therapist. I don't know that I love that term, but it just is what it is. I'm 48 and I think it's important that I'm honest about what that journey has looked like. When I'm doing clinical supervision and stuff, my supervisees know that I have swung for the fences and eaten dirt, and that it's okay to do that. Dust yourself off, maybe feel a little embarrassed for a few days and get back to it, to provide that kind of support. Because even if you didn't get it when you were younger, can we seek that out in mentorship, or coaching, or surrounding yourself in a community that's gonna be honest and real about the fact that going for it and having it not succeed in the way that you wished it would is very normal and that resiliency can exist. And that there's support behind you, even if you were not successful on your first tryout, or if you feel nervous, even if it's not being successful, if you just feel nervous about it, normalizing that process.

Patrick: Yeah, gotta normalize it. Have to normalize it. Have to give ourselves permission to make mistakes when starting something new, especially for those of you who are listening who are more perfectionistic, because perfectionism takes over and then it says, I need this to be perfect before it can be put out to the world, or I need to be the expert before it can be put out to the world. And then you prevent yourself from doing the thing. There are so many good examples, and quotes, and references to really who we would consider to be high achieving or accomplished individuals like celebrities and inventors and authors who experience imposter syndrome every single day, regardless of the fact that like they've had all this tremendous success. One quote that always stands out to me is a Maya Angelou quote, who says: I've written 11 books and every time I feel like they're going to find me out to learn that I am not who I said I am, that I am a fraud. And I just cannot imagine writing 11 books and still constantly second-guessing yourself and feeling this level of insecurity and imposter syndrome that shows up when you try something new. Now, I also wanna say that this is not binary, that imposter syndrome is not all negative, and second-guessing yourself and doubting yourself when doing something new is probably really important. And I would much rather have that type of humility and self-doubt than go into every situation feeling like I don't have anything to learn, or I don't have anything to be concerned about.

Jennifer: Right, and this goes back to the supportive community that you're putting around yourself. And honestly, be very selective who is in that supportive community, because if you are going after general feedback, you are going to get a swath of people who know your style, don't know your style, who may or may not be in aligned with your core audience that you're trying to reach or ideal client. You need to have people in your circle whose feedback you genuinely trust, who you respect, who get you and who understand where you're trying to go with it. Because I mean, we've all known social media can be a battlefield out there right? And sometimes when you put yourself out there, then everyone has an opinion about what you're doing and it can get your head swiveling way too much. It's much better to have a smaller group with openness and humility you can go to and get honest feedback from.

Patrick: Yeah, for sure. Your support system is crucial in all of this, and that goes without saying. We've gotta have people who have our backs, who can also allow us to vent and process and have a place to have support when things feel like a struggle. And we also need to have people who will call things and say like, eh, that's really not a good idea. Like if you're asking for honest feedback, I'm giving it, but at least you're in a circle of people where you are asking for that and you trust the response that you're given instead of people who are just negative to be negative.

Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. And when you are coaching therapists, right? Cause this comes up for me, I know it comes up for you, and you see the imposter syndrome really start rearing its ugly little head. What do you do when they're starting to really pull back? Because I know I have had people who've had really good ideas who get to the line and they can't cross it, they just won't cross it and put that idea out there. What are some of the things that you say or do to help them step over that line?

Patrick: Yeah, that's a great question. I oftentimes use a lot of my own examples of times where I've experienced the very same thing. Because I think showing that this process is really normal for you to feel and experience this, I think it makes a lot of sense to just be able to say then, I've experienced this, this is how this has come up for me, and this is how I work through it. And just being able to offer, like, yes I know what it's like to really like second guess myself in these situations, so I always have found that to be useful. But ultimately I really believe in imperfect action, like building the plane as you fly it, so to speak. So a lot of the time what I'll do with my therapist is like, hey, let's just get the idea out there together. So I will encourage them to put the idea out there on their social media page while we're sitting there together, I will encourage them to put it out to a friend or a colleague while we're sitting together. I want to get it out of that inaction into action by working through that paralyzing process that's going on in the head and getting it out of the thought process out of the body.

Jennifer: More energy creates more energy.

Patrick: Exactly. And I think we can stay in our heads all day. It's really safe to be there and we can also convince ourselves we can't be successful and that can be the feedback loop that exists and just stays there for eternity. So it really is just about getting it out of your head, getting it out of your body, making sure that that creates the creative process. And I'd like to use a lot of real-life examples in my coaching, like my own failures, my own struggles, my own mistakes. Just highlighting the fact that like you're not alone in this, because I think so often for imposter syndrome, especially the thought processes, it's me like, there's something wrong with me and why can't I do the thing that everyone else is doing? And in reality, most people are feeling that way. It's just that some are better suited at getting it out of their thought processes and into action.

Yeah, I love using real-life examples, and I also always try to instill in the people that I work with, a philosophy that I have, which is not new to me, but it's just living your life with no regrets, right? If this is my one shot around planet earth, in this brain and in this body, do I want to leave this planet knowing I could have gone for it? Or am I okay with sitting with a regret of, I wish I would have? And for me I'm not okay with sitting in that space of, I wish I would have, I let fear stop me from trying something I wanted to do. I would rather just go for it and live a life of no regrets. And that has been a very motivating thought for me for many, many years. You know, my husband and I moved overseas, we both left very good jobs to do it. And you know, that's a whole ‘nother story but I just kept having this thought, okay, at the end of your life, are you going to regret doing this or regret that you didn't at least try? And the answer was super clear, I had to just go for it. And I've kind of had that philosophy with about everything I've tried at the end of the day. I do not wanna go skidding in sideways at the end of my life saying I didn't really try, I didn't really go for it. I'd rather just say, yep I slid in home because I went for everything, and woo-hoo.

Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, life is very short and we can definitely live with regret and resentment and frustration that we didn't do the thing. But I do think once you work through a little bit of the imposter syndrome piece, it gets a lot easier to say I'm going to go for it, or I'm going to try, instead of just allowing that to say like, nope, this thought process or these ideas are saying, nope, I'm not good enough. I don't belong here and I'm gonna shrink back, and I think it keeps a lot of us playing small. And once you realize that once you get these out of your head or outta your body and the world doesn't stop spinning, it's like, okay well, what is the worst that's going to happen right now? If I launch the thing and it fails, then it fails and that's okay, and then we learn from that mistake or that failure, and we kind of improve it the next go around. And I think for those of you who are listening, who are running a business or starting a business, or thinking about starting a business, you're already in that process of saying, yeah, I'm nervous and you should be, and I'm anxious and I feel insecure, but I'm gonna give it a shot because I want to see if I can make this work for myself. And I think for that, there's a lot of resilience and a lot of courage there.

Jennifer: Absolutely. I had a thought and it left my head because, you know, that's just what happens when I kind of get, I was getting lost in thinking of all of the times that I've had to do that, or sitting with a client and they're sharing a story with you and they say to you well, what are we gonna do about that? Or what am I gonna do about that? And I've had that thought of like, I don't know that's a good question. What are you gonna do about that? Oh, wait, I'm the expert in the room, I'm supposed to be coming up with answers here. You just got me in my own bunny trail of thoughts, thinking about all those little times when you have those moments of just realizing your humanness. So a few practical things I want the listeners to hear that I at least have found helpful. And Patrick, I'd love to hear yours as well, just very practical steps. Get a support system that is truly no BS supportive of you. But the other thing is you also have to figure out when you're launching something new or going for a new goal. Who do you want to spend your time and energy around and who is not helpful during this season to have in your ear? So for example, that could be a critical friend, a hypercritical parent. It could be social media groups where there's too much compare and despair, if you look in that group and see other people and it's not helpful to your system. So I want you to think, what is it that I don't need during this season? What do I need and what do I not need and offer yourself both things. What are some of the things that you do, Patrick? What are some of the things that you really do not want or need when you're going to try something new?

Patrick: Yeah, the things I like to have, and this is just through experience. Like I love to be able to kind of circle back to times that I've doubted myself and I did it anyway, which has kind of been my motto recently is doubt yourself but do it anyway. I like to bounce the ideas off of people who I trust their responses, for sure. I like to make imposter syndrome playful. So going back to childhood wounding or attachment wounding, playfulness is really important in terms of how we process difficult emotions and difficult experiences and move through them. If you can give your imposter syndrome a funny voice, a funny name, a funny accent, tell it to shut the hell up when it's speaking. Really not let it take over or have power over you, I've found it to be really, really helpful. The list of ways to like, hey it's okay to give yourself permission to make mistakes, I even write that down when I'm starting something new, like I have to see it and have that affirmation and visual aid of, It's okay you're doing something new, it makes sense why you wouldn't get this right away. Otherwise, you can get really frustrated and give up, so I try really hard to do that pretty consistently now. And just the realization that like, just putting it out to the world, it doesn't mean anything's going to stop, like, nothing's gonna stop happening from that. So it's less scary once you just get it out there and I promise you, if you can just do that now, it will serve you very well going forward.

Jennifer: Yeah, Patrick and I are both therapists who believe in other therapists and we want to see other therapists succeed, and that's one of the reasons I think we're friends is because we're very congruent in that value of really, truly supporting other therapists to see them grow and succeed, and not just succeed in traditional ways of like building wealth and things like that. We want that for you too, but also believing in yourself, putting yourself out there because each individual from my perspective is a gift to the world, and what you have to say does matter, the way you show up is important, and I know we're both gonna be here to support you if there's anything that we can do. And Patrick, I appreciate you being on the show and I'd love for you to let people know how they can connect with you.

Patrick: Yeah thank you, Jen, I appreciate it. And I appreciate you having me on, if anyone's listening that wants to work with me, come on retreats, see some podcast episodes. You can go to The All Things Private Practice Podcast is on all major platforms, you can also join the All Things Private Practice Facebook Group, and be kept up to date in there as well.

Jennifer: All right. And if you'd like to connect more with me, the podcast coaching retreats online, continuing education, and all the links to our socials are below. Get out there and live your best dang life.