Chris 'Rhino' Swenson, LMFT and I discuss his philosophy of “Rhino Mentality” and how this creates resilience as therapists and entrepreneurs. Chris is a published author and mentality coach and shared his best tips for getting unstuck and to finally start and complete writing a book.
Chris ‘Rhino’ Swenson is a loving husband, father to 3, and grandfather to 1! When he is not helping others become stronger, wiser, and more resilient (The Rhino Mentality) you will find him hanging out with family and friends; most likely jamming to some 80’s rock music while enjoying a tasty bourbon! Not only is he a therapist and practice owner, he is also an author, speaker, mindset coach, therapist, and life philosopher. He has gone from living a life that was controlled by different fears, self-doubt, and anxieties to now living the Rhino Mentality philosophy of life; which has transformed his life immensely! He seeks to teach and help awaken the Rhino within others so they too can live with confidence, strength, wisdom, and resiliency while being calm, relaxed, and having fun!
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Chris 'Rhino' Swenson, LMFT and I discuss his philosophy of “Rhino Mentality” and how this creates resilience as therapists and entrepreneurs. Chris is a published author and mentality coach and shared his best tips for getting unstuck and to finally start and complete writing a book.
Chris ‘Rhino’ Swenson is a loving husband, father to 3, and grandfather to 1! When he is not helping others become stronger, wiser, and more resilient (The Rhino Mentality) you will find him hanging out with family and friends; most likely jamming to some 80’s rock music while enjoying a tasty bourbon! Not only is he a therapist and practice owner, he is also an author, speaker, mindset coach, therapist, and life philosopher. He has gone from living a life that was controlled by different fears, self-doubt, and anxieties to now living the Rhino Mentality philosophy of life; which has transformed his life immensely! He seeks to teach and help awaken the Rhino within others so they too can live with confidence, strength, wisdom, and resiliency while being calm, relaxed, and having fun!
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Jennifer Agee: Hello, hello, and welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I'm your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. With me today is Chris "the Rhino" Swenson. He is an author, speaker, mindset coach, therapist, and life philosopher. So welcome to the show.
Chris Swenson: Oh, pleasure to have me on. It's a pleasure.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. So, tell me, what's something you wish you learned in grad school?
Chris Swenson: Well, that's always an interesting one 'cause there's many times, like, people will usually put out like, "man, I wish I learned business. I wish I learned these things." But for me, going into grad school, I knew I wanted to do private practice.
Jennifer Agee: Really?
Chris Swenson: It was just the internship part. They couldn't place me with one, so they put me as close as I could. But I always look at it where I think grad school just needs to prepare us to be great therapists. Um, and I come from the business world before all this, so that helps. But I always see, we got such in our community, such great, like, private practice coaches that are out there. So to me, if someone's in grad school right now, learn to be the best therapist you can be there. But man, there is way better people out there to teach you how to run a practice, grow a practice from a lot of our coaches than there ever will be at a university.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Um, but the one thing I wish they would've done is, kind of, prepared you for the grind of just the burnout and the fatigue that's gonna come. I mean, they always talked about the low pay; that was one thing. Um, but like, I did a lot of emergency work over the years, and I could take on so many clients. So, I ended up, I think the last time I worked [INDISCERNIBLE], which is years ago, I had like over, like, 35 appointments a week from some of the most high-risk people that you could see. And I was so burnt out that it came down to where thought I was having a heart attack, which apparently it wasn't, it was probably just stress and this, but it was just weighing on me. Um, and so that really sucks. I think if they would've taught me to the politics of the BS of people, um, knowing that you're probably in an agency spot, not saying that all managers aren't the best, but where I was at, they really didn't know business. They were like therapists that got promoted up into management, and they had no idea.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: So, some of that stuff, wasn't, was a little bit different for me. So those are the things I would look at from -
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Wish I'd have been taught in grad school. Yeah. Or just predict my future, but that ain't gonna happen.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. That part's not gonna happen. But what you're alluding to, I think, is a really important piece for us to pay attention to, which is nobody teaches you how, how to create life balance when a part of our natural giftings are really what we're doing for our work. We are helpers and healers in the world, and so that doesn't get shut off when we come home. I mean, obviously it's compartmentalized, but figuring out what life balance looks like, what healthy boundaries look like with a career when you are a helper-healer is, it's a difficult road to navigate for a lot. And in the beginning, I don't know a single therapist who did not burn themselves out because it's really learn as you go. Like, hopefully, you have a great clinical supervisor in the beginning that helps you become aware of these things and the signs of when it's happening, but unless somebody's helping you navigate it, it's baptism by fire, really.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, no doubt 'cause like after all that is when like my, what I call my like philosophy of life rhino mentality, and I began to switch to just completely changing my entire, um, mindset. Period. Um, where I'm like totally different from where I was. In fact, I went to a reunion, 30th class reunion — dating myself now — but, um, last year. Um, and people looked at me like, you're different. And I'm went, well, I hope so after 30 some years of seeing y'all, you know? Um, but they're like, no, no, no, something. I'm like, yeah, I get it 'cause I'm not. Like, it's so foreign to me. But through all those kind of challenges, that's where I put a lot of that together, and that's my thing that I really help to coach with people as well, is getting that not only just the life balance but creating something that they do get that fulfillment and they do have something that kind of resonates with their own lifestyle, as opposed to just creating something that now you become a slave to the business in a sense, you know? And that's not, not the greatest. So...
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. What made you decide to make those internal shifts?
Chris Swenson: Well, I think it was just a burnout and the health stuff. Like, I mean I was on, they put me on a heart pill, a blood pressure pill, an anti-anxiety, an antidepressant. And then one of 'em made me pee so damn bad, so they put me on something for that. And once I left that agency and I went right into full-time private practice with no clients, which I don't quite recommend for a lot of people, but I just needed to do it, I took myself off of all those medication, and then began working a lot with going through mental training programs from former seals and, you know, different military individuals about mental toughness. And went back into my doctor, and she was, like, wow, looks like everything's looking good. Those meds are working. And I'm like, well, I'm not on any of them anymore.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: I mean, it was totally different, but having that thing to almost, like, retrain my responses towards fear or, you know, self-doubt, whatever it might be, that really took my practice to a whole 'nother level.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Um, and so that's been a big thing for me. So, it's not shying away from challenges, um, or fears. I don't like them, like, you know, but you have to go through those. So, yeah, having to go through just, kind of, the decision that something's gotta be different. This ain't working.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I remember, um, years ago I was, I was right at the place– I didn't know it was burn out quite at the time, but I knew, I didn't feel like myself. And I know I'm pretty well connected with myself. I know if something's off, right? And I went to the doctor, and I said, "look, something's off in my system and I can tell it. And I don't know what it is, but something's not right. Like, check my hormones. We need, we need to, like, check things because I do not feel like myself. And that is not normal for me." And, uh, anyhow, he ran like, he did a good job. He did all the blood work I would've possibly have wanted. Everything came back normal and fine. And it just so happened that the next week my husband and I were leaving on a three-week trip to Italy and Greece. It was for our 25th anniversary. And you know, it was a great trip. All of the symptoms went away. I came back and I was like, holy shit. All I needed was a vacation, like a really good vacation. I needed to de-stress my life. And, and so when I came back, I just made the decision that I was gonna be willing to Etch-A-Sketch my entire life to realign it with what I wanted and needed.
Chris Swenson: Absolutely.
Jennifer Agee: And to release what no longer served me well. And that for me was like my aha moment. I need to, I need to realign what my business structure looks like in order to more accurately meet what my life is requiring and wanting from me right now.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, totally. 'Cause once I made that switch, like, everything became different. But yeah, there was time it would take to, like, restructure aspects of my own life. And when I look at it now, operating from like my rhino mentality is, I went through, like, a divorce a few years ago. Um, and it was a good thing for me, but you're never, like, prepared about how those changes really affect you. So, you go through that. Then we had COVID. Um, then I ended up, like, launching like three different businesses in one year, all of which flopped, um, through all of the stuff that was going on, and I was still able to come out, like, I learned a lot. This, you know, I didn't take too much of a hit. Whereas before, if I'd have been operating with just being completely defeated and burnt out, there is no way, you know? And so yeah, it's been a, a real blessing having to get back to, kind of, what's important to me. And that's a big part of what I try to help out others too, like on my social medias. And there's me a lot more stuff coming from Rhino mentality, um, as I'm working with my coach for that stuff. And so, that'll be a lot more, but it's just the fact of, I'm tired of seeing a lot of us, especially entrepreneurs, you know, struggling with mental health, struggling with the work-life balance, and it doesn't have to be that way, you know?
Jennifer Agee: No, it doesn't.
Chris Swenson: Yeah. That hustle culture is something that's, kind of, very toxic, and I know that they've used rhino and hustle culture to be just plow, plow, plow, power, power, power. But they don't understand what the animal really is, you know?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: I mean, it's actually very laid back, friendly, likes to be lazy, you know? I mean, if you come up on a bear with a little one, you're gonna be in trouble.
Jennifer Agee: Sure.
Chris Swenson: But if you come up on a rhino with a little one, you're not really gonna be in trouble, unless you piss it off, you know?
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Chris Swenson: And so, there's a lot of stuff from like ancient cultures talking about rhino when it does come to you in dreams and stuff to step back, be grounded, you know, um, relax a little bit. But yeah, you can charge and be powerful too. So, I like the blend of all of that, as opposed to hustle culture's view for all of us to just go, go, go, and forget about your life.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, and I think, you know, going through everything that we went through the last few years with COVID and the amount of just burnout that existed, not even just within our profession, but I've never experienced in my entire life, a whole planet of burnout at one time. Like, everyone dealt with a low level or a high level of burnout at the same time. It was a v-, it's been a very weird time to be alive, I will say. But I know my coaching business really exploded during that time because everyone was realizing, I can't keep just grinding. I have got to put some strategy behind what I'm doing because I'm exhausted. So, I have to figure out how I'm gonna work smarter, not harder, how I'm gonna have more of what I, I want and less of what I don't want in my life, and still be able to make a good living. And I think a lot of us are hitting, you know, have hit those places where it's time to make those decisions and give yourself the freedom to not do things the way other generations have done them before. And maybe get off the rat, the rat race and figure out what's gonna work for us that creates a, a well-lived life.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the thing that I get tired of seeing is just all that burnout, the struggle, um, but being able to– You know, it's almost like that shiny object that they have. It's just to be very careful of what is put in front of you. I mean, we have these goals, these ideas, this is what I want to do, oh my gosh, I want that so bad. And sometimes we, we don't realize that the route we take there is just created, kind of, more problems. It's as if the problem would be out there going, like, hm, okay, sure. Take that route.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: I still got you, you know? Um, and then sometimes even just navigating that jungle, like you get out in the jungle on the road to your dreams, and there's a lot of interesting characters you'll run into.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: Um, and sometimes people aren't quite prepared for what those are, and then they internalize a lot of stuff when a lot of times it's, kind of, the normal process we go through.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Well, and thinking about rhino mentality, being an entrepreneur — 'cause you and I are both entrepreneurs — it requires a crack ton of resiliency because every time you step up to the plate, you are not going to hit a home run. That means that we try a lot of things because our brains can see possibilities and opportunities in different ways, but all of those are not a success. And I learned a ton from, from the times that I swung, and I missed. I really thought it was gonna be a great whatever, and it turns out it fell flat. And instead of pulling inward and then beating yourself up — which I think we all do a little bit immediately after you realize something didn't succeed; I think that's super normal — I think good entrepreneurs get up, and they shake it off and go, what did I learn from this? How do I need to realign? And dammit, I, I'm gonna try it again.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, totally. 'Cause the resiliency you talk about, 'cause when I really break down what is rhino to me, it is being strong, wise, and resilient. And it's calm and relaxed while having fun, that balance to it.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: And it's the part of, yeah, nothing ever quite goes our way, but even through all those failures I had, um, there's so much I learned that, my gosh, do I wanna go back through it? No, but it was worth doing 'cause there's so much more that I learned from that, um, going forward, um, that's there. But to me, going through the challenges of a lot of that is what builds me in a better way. And so, that's a big thing, especially like in this part is, yeah, we're not gonna always be successful, so the resiliency's a huge deal. But just that strength, that emotional and mental strength, that thicker skin, because there's a lot of people that are haters out there, and there's a lot of people, you know, saying whatever and this stuff like that. They can really hit. Like, we could have 99 people say, my gosh, this is amazing. And that one person says something, and we get so focused on that one.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: And it just tears us up. So sometimes, yeah, we do need to, you know, have, kind of, the thicker hide, but that gets built through going through the challenges. That's just the only way of doing it.
Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. I mean, the, that gets built through going through the challenges, and I think it also requires a level of vulnerability with yourself to ask yourself the hard question of, um, what is it that I really need to learn from this? Where did I go wrong? And I can tell you one of the lessons I learned when I stepped up to the plate and did not swing and hit, I definitely swung and missed, was the, the hard truth was I actually changed the vision of what I did for my original dream that I believe God put my heart, and I shifted it to follow the dollar. And I whiffed, and I should have, because I was not honoring the original dream. I was not honoring what I already knew I was supposed to be doing. And I started following money instead, as a primary, which isn't really a part of my core value. But you get a-, we all get wrapped up into it from time to time, right? And when I sat with myself, and I was like, Jen, you know why this didn't work. Because you, you freaking chased the wrong thing and you know it lady. Like, you need to own it, and you need to recalibrate. And when I did, and I recalibrated, and I made, I made changes, and I got back into alignment and said, whether or not this, this really makes money, I enjoy this, and this is fun, and this I think is beneficial to people. Everything has thrived and flowed so beautifully since then. But I had to own the fact that it was me who messed it up. It wasn't just like a society thing or whatever. I screwed it up because I wasn't really honoring in the first place what I knew I was supposed to be doing.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, that's the big part 'cause sometimes we do. We get caught up in that chase of something else, um, and then it takes away. And I think a lot of, some of my failure is the same way. You know, it is, it's even with, you know, really gonna go forward now with just doing the rhino mentality stuff, these things, and that encompasses so much, but, like, I would come up with different names that were, I thought the name would be better than this. And I'm like, what, what are you doing? You're not, you're not reflecting who you are. Like, that's not it at all. And then you're, yeah, so sometimes like, well, no wonder why I failed. And I probably should have, because if I didn't, who knows where I'd end up too, you know?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: But the big thing, like you were talking earlier too, about how it's, we all kind of beat ourselves up, and that's kind of normal, um, that's a big thing. Like, there's times where you give yourself moments to have your fit and it's okay.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: And then you're gonna have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, you know, wipe the blood away a little bit, and get back in again, um, from that. And so, like, so many times, you know, like over my life as well too, where it's maybe spend too much time doing that in the past where now it's pretty quick, but we all have to have that. And then, like, fears, I mean, we always look if I can just get rid of this fear, that I wanna be so much better. And a lot of times, I tell people it's about embracing fear. You know, fear is gonna be part of it. It's just a different relationship that you can take towards fear, um, that goes in. And sometimes our own hardwired way that we've, kind of, been socialized or culturalized on this is how you respond to fear, you know, from growing up or whatever, it doesn't work sometimes. And so having to retrain that brain in a different response to when you face fears. You know, I always use that example like firefighters.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: I mean, they have to go into, like, a burning building, right? I mean, every ounce of you is, like, what are you doing?
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Chris Swenson: That's a burning building. You don't need to go in there, you know? Instead, they do, and a lot of 'em will tell you, it's a lot of that mental training, practice this stuff to be able to, in a sense, deal with that so it doesn't compromise them. And it's the same way I think for entrepreneurs. It's, there's gonna be different ways we respond to fear and sometimes we don't know that until we get out in there and have our mistakes made, you know?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Yeah. A lot of that's like normal to be facing, self-doubt, different things like that. You know, like people that are, you know, like publishing books or whatnot. I mean, those people, it's the same thing. Like, is you're gonna get the same, is anyone gonna wanna read this? You know? Oh my gosh, I'm not a writer. What am I trying to do? You know? This is gonna take forever. There's a lot of stuff that goes through all this that is, kind of, like the normal journey, um, of doing those things, building a business or whatnot. Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: That's very normal that we go through it.
Jennifer Agee: A hundred percent normal. The other thing that's normal, and I want therapists listening to this to just feel validated, every single therapist I know has Googled other jobs. We have all, um, looked at what else could I possibly do with this degree, or what could I do that would be a mindless job to have. Like, even if you don't look it up, you fantasize about it from time to time. Like, all of that is super freaking normal. So just know that doesn't mean that you need to get off the train. That's usually just an indicator that your brain and your body are needing a break or needing to do something else. But even when you look at really successful coaches in our community or people who are doing what looks like spectacular things, I can tell you 'cause I'm in the room with them behind the scenes, they all have those same thoughts. We all have imposter syndrome from time to time. Um, and it flares up sometimes bigger than others. We all have Googled other jobs. We all sometimes wanna quit the field and say, F therapists; they're assholes. Like, we all feel that way. So, like, you're having a very normal human reaction to a job that is a very weird job to be in. It's, like, beautiful and wonderful, but it's also a very odd job.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, and what's interesting is you look at a lot of performers, like singers and stuff, like they get up on stage and they're, like, going crazy. And it's, like, wow, how do they do that? Then you find out behind the scenes, like, they got stage fright.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: I mean, they have it. They, they're, you know, real difficult sometimes to get up on stage or do whatever, but they find a way because I think purpose is a big deal. And, and if people can understand what that purpose is about why you're doing what you do in a very deep, you know, very deep connected way, then that helps guide you, especially when you start to get through some of the, the stuff 'cause things don't quite go well and your mind's always looking for a way out. So, oh, that job might look kind of cool. I don't know. You know, and it's okay, just going back to, kind of, who you are and step back.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: You know, like you said, and just get back in touch with what's most important for you.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, so, how I first became aware of Chris is actually through a Facebook group that he runs for people who are wanting to self-publish, who are wanting to write books. Because I have, I actually have three books that I've started, and none of them are finished. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna get in this group, I'm gonna hold myself accountable, I'm finishing one of these MFS before the end of the year. Okay. I think I've been in the group two years. I haven't finished one of 'em. But yet, I've got to know you. And it's, it's, you know, been on my radar. It's great. Tell me a little bit about the, the publishing part because, you know, like most entrepreneurs, we're not one trick ponies. Most of us have several different interests in two different things, and being an author is one of yours. Tell me a little bit about that part of you.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, I think when I was in the business world years ago before, and that was just not me, sitting in a cubicle looking at a computer all day, then I, like, manage, like, teams and this stuff, but they were at a distance, um, it wasn't my thing. So, when I went back, I'm, like, you know what? I wanna, like, write books and, you know, do seminars and workshops, stuff like this. And this was, as I date myself, again, it was before the internet was as big as it is. Um, so I really always wanted to do that. And, um, I too have like at least three or four books that are fairly written but not finished yet.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Because we do, we just get in a topic, we take a dive on it. Um, but the one thing I look for people, 'cause writing of a book became, like my first book that I wrote, Rhino Life Lessons, was– I just wanted to know, like, okay, how do you do this? Okay? So I just went through to do all this, and I had, the content for it is I had written so many blog posts for my practice, just hundreds of these and written articles in the newspaper, and so I compiled it down to, like, the 32 best ones and, kind of, you know, rehash 'em a little bit, a little bit longer to it and then put it into a book format. 'Cause I just wanted to see like, okay, how do you do this? And then I'll write a real book. That's what I remember telling myself. Come to find out this is like my best-selling book. And it really, like, people started flowing into my practice because they heard I wrote a book. You know, it was like the, the best, like, business card ever.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Then I'd have people where they're gonna be, hey, I bought this book and I need to get five or six more because I'm gonna put 'em for Christmas gifts.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: And then you have people that are, like, you know what, I ordered this book. Soon as it came, my daughter grabbed it from my hands, and she took it from me. So now I gotta order another one.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: You know, and I had no idea how that was going to be...
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: On there, 'cause I just wanted to learn the process of it.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: But the what I've really come to learn a lot about it is, the book itself is one thing, but the “where you can really profit from that” is through your services, programs, courses, um, because it's nothing like having a book when people can sit down, and they get so, like, they really get to know you and how you work. And it's a very intimate, kind of, connection way through a book. Like, a workshop can be there. That's great. Um, but man, the book is like definitely something that's there.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: But for, like, a lot of therapists, there are so many people that sometimes have a hard time coming in for therapy, or it's not available, can't afford what it might be. And if there's something that you could give beyond the therapy room, then that's a great option, a great thing. And I think that our community of, of people have so many wealth of knowledge around topics that the world needs, you know? And their job is to bring that to the world and not just hold onto it because there's a lot of fluff that's out there. I mean, a lot of people that don't quite know, but they'll write about it. But a lot of us know. And man, the great information that can be out there is, is phenomenal. And so, to me, if you're called to write a book, this is what I've always, kind of, felt like, you get these moments where, oh, this is it. I'm gonna begin doing this. And you feel, kind of, called, and if you don't take it and run, sometimes it's like that opportunity passed you by. And another one might come along.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Is kind of the idea. Yeah. But no, I'm sitting on some other ones as well, so...
Jennifer Agee: I think we need a writer's weekend where we, um, just get together in the mountains or something, and we just, like, are intentional about writing and holding each other accountable for doing it because I, yeah, there's, there's a few. I just need to, I just need to freaking finish 'em. But I like what you said, be-, uh, with regard to when the momentum kind of passes, when you get the energy behind something and you don't jump on it, you do miss out. Because you've got to go where your flow is going or else it becomes a chore. It becomes a grind to have to do that. And there's, there's embrace the suck in any job, right? There are parts of it that are just that way, but I made a really big change to my schedule for 2023 to try and do that. And it is scary as shit because I'm, I'm letting my clients know that I, I only have three clients that I see now. Everyone else, you know, is coaching or clinical supervision, but I'm letting them know I'm not seeing clients in 2023. I'm changing my schedule so that I'm more available for where I'm, my business is growing. I had to rearrange some things for clinical supervision and different things like that. And if, if I did not honor where the flow is going, I would look back, I know it, in a few years and go, what could this have been if I would've actually dedicated time and energy to it? Because I know that's what I'm supposed to be doing.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of times, like, writing, there are times, like, um, people can write 'em pretty quick. Like, there might be blog posts or articles that you've written that you could pick some of the best ones, put it in kind of a book format. You can do those. I've seen people where they have put on a workshop, you know, and then they record the workshop, transcribe it, and take that, put it into a book format.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: You know? And so, there's a lot of different ways, or they did a presentation. There's that option too.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: One of the greatest — this is kind of funny — one of the greatest books out there, this thing has sold like millions of millions of copies, right, and the title of it is, is uh, What Men Know About Women, right?
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Chris Swenson: And you open the book and it's blank. I mean, it's like...
Jennifer Agee: Who would? That was a genius book.
Chris Swenson: There's no writing. Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: That's a genius. That's absolutely genius. I find, I know that. Um, so two of the books that I started are heavy. Um, one of 'em, one of them has to deal with, um, I'm a daughter of suicide. My father, um, completed suicide when I was little, and so I have started and stopped that book many times, and I know that there's parts of me that, like, avoid that book. So I know that there's that stuff. But the other one is, um, about the– I lived in South Africa for about four years, and I have all the blogs. I have everything that I wrote about. But what I'm finding really difficult or where I'm getting stuck is all the stuff I couldn't write about or didn't write about in order to protect or save someone else's reputation or the church's reputation or different things like that. Like, all of those things, uh, that is where I'm getting stuck 'cause I have the basis of the book, and then I'm like, mm, how honest are we gonna be here?
Chris Swenson: Yeah, that's the tough spot because, especially on personal stuff, I mean, it's very vulnerable. It really is about writing some stuff. And, you know, people I know that are doing that, I know one individual's working now on a very great book too, and, and same way for her. It's just, wow, I'm really putting myself out there, you know? And that's scary. And so, sometimes it, fear holds us back and we second guess. I know when I sit down to really start looking at, at writing, I mean, you kind of pick your topic, you do a little research around the topic, but eventually you want to get yourself a core message, and that is the one thing that you want people to take away. Like, this is the mission of your book. Like, what is that one, big thing that you want the readers to get? And that's the core message. And so, then as you write it, each of the chapters take 'em through this journey to, in a sense, obtain that.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: And a lot of times your core message becomes your subtitle, doesn't necessarily have to. And so that's what I'll do is I'll, you know, kind of, craft my core message because if I don't, I start getting in and I write here, I write there, and I got this huge, huge fricking thing. And then I don't, and it's like, where is this going? But that helps to kinda like, this is mission-focused. This is what we do, you know?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Or as I put like front horn focus right on this, you know? Um, and it helps you, kind of, stay in that. And from there, I'll end up, kind of, outlining my chapters, which become, kind of, the lessons that take people to get there, um, or to, you know, accomplish what that message is I'm trying to say.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Um, and then I want to get a format of my chapters because if you can make them fairly consistent, like you might start off with a quote, share a story, illustrate the point, share some example, whatever that might be, leave them with some tidbits, however that is, so that each one is a good flow with that.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: And then after that, then I'll start doing the writing. And I hate writing. I really do. I've always done that since a kid. I don't even like typing. So, I speak mine, I will speak it into the computer and it types for me. I love that.
Jennifer Agee: Yes, I love that.
Chris Swenson: And you can actually get more done that way 'cause we can speak faster than we can type. Or at least I can.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, for sure.
Chris Swenson: And so that's one way. And then your first draft, man, you just let it go.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Don't worry about editing, questioning, just put it down is a big part of that 'cause after that you can go take a look at it. Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Edit. Yeah, I think it's Steven King who says never start out, uh, trying to write the final copy. Start out just writing. And then another, another tip that I got recently ‘cause I love the tips that you shared, but was when books are of a more personal nature, just write the book as though no one is going to read it. You can always decide whether to publish it or not or edit it later. But write it as though no one's going to read it because you will be your most raw and authentic self knowing it's private. And then from there, you can decide what you wanna do with it.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, I love that 'cause, like I said, 'cause once you say I'm gonna go write a book, and then you leave your comfort zone, and you end up in the jungle, like I said, there's a lot of characters out there. And it can, kind of, pull you around, and before you know it, it's two, three years, and I haven't done anything or put it out there, you know, stuff like that. And I think, that's where when I bring in a lot of, like, rhino mentality with it. Um, because I set it up right off the bat with, you know, what is my mission? And I get that very squared away. And what is the reason why I'm doing this in a very big way, that purpose? And then I prepare myself. I'm very aware of what I might meet. You know, the, I never do that, especially like when I speak, you know, like, let me, let me visualize this in my head, getting up, presenting. It goes so well. Every word is there. The audience is just, wow. You know?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: And I don't do that, because I know what's gonna happen is I'm gonna get up there and forget something.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Chris Swenson: You know? I'm probably, at first, gonna be a bit nervous. And then I'll get into it. People are probably gonna look at their watches or get up and walk. They might not be leaving; they might be going to the bathroom. But I picture all these different things because then I'm more prepared for it. So then when I'm ready, I've already faced it in my mind, all ready to go. And I do the same stuff with writing. I know that I'm not gonna sit down and just write every time. And I'm, I'm not a morning person, never have been. So, people always say, you gotta get up in the morning and write, you know? I don't. Like, I'm a night owl. So, I'll be staying up at night and a lot of times I do that.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Chris Swenson: Um, on there. So, we, kind of, find our different ways of what kind of works, uh, for people to kind of do. Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, work with your natural flow. Man, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you so much for being on. I really, I really appreciate it, and I appreciate getting to know you because I just know you from online, so now I'm getting to meet you, you know, virtually again, in a different way, but it's nice to get to know you better.
Chris Swenson: Yeah, and at some point, we'll probably see each other live on this. I got some stuff on be getting out more, and attending, and stuff like that, so definitely. Yeah. I enjoyed it.
Jennifer Agee: So how can people connect with you?
Chris Swenson: Well, I do have, um, like the Facebook group you talked about. It's called Self-Publishing for Therapists, Coaches, and Consultants. Um, there's that group that's there. And then just like my Facebook page, my Chris "Rhino" Swenson Facebook page, you know, to kind of follow through on those things. That's probably the easiest way to, to get that.
Jennifer Agee: Perfect, and I will put the links below the description of this podcast for anyone who just wants to click and magically get there. If you'd like to connect more with me or the podcast or future retreats or trainings, counselingcommunity.com. I hope you get out there and have a wonderful day. And live your best dang life.