During this episode, I talk with Patrick Casale, LCMHC, LCAS (he/him) about suicide. Patrick and I share our experiences as therapists and as individuals who have struggled with suicidal thoughts. We are raw and honest in this conversation and hold nothing back. We share what has been helpful for us in our journeys and how you can help clients when they express suicidal thoughts.
Patrick is the owner of All Things Private Practice and Resilient Mind Counseling. Patrick works as a Private Practice Coach and Strategist, and is also a Group Practice Owner, Motivational Speaker, Retreat Planner, and Podcast Host. He has been featured on Private Practice Startup, Abundance Practice Building, Therapy Reimagined, Not Your Typical Psychotherapist, Selling The Couch, and Modern Therapists.
Patrick is a passionate advocate, reducing shame and stigma of mental health, as well as impostor syndrome. Patrick helps mental health entrepreneurs break the mold, work through their fears and insecurities, and to embrace their authenticity.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Alaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023
During this episode, I talk with Patrick Casale, LCMHC, LCAS (he/him) about suicide. Patrick and I share our experiences as therapists and as individuals who have struggled with suicidal thoughts. We are raw and honest in this conversation and hold nothing back. We share what has been helpful for us in our journeys and how you can help clients when they express suicidal thoughts.
Patrick is the owner of All Things Private Practice and Resilient Mind Counseling. Patrick works as a Private Practice Coach and Strategist, and is also a Group Practice Owner, Motivational Speaker, Retreat Planner, and Podcast Host. He has been featured on Private Practice Startup, Abundance Practice Building, Therapy Reimagined, Not Your Typical Psychotherapist, Selling The Couch, and Modern Therapists.
Patrick is a passionate advocate, reducing shame and stigma of mental health, as well as impostor syndrome. Patrick helps mental health entrepreneurs break the mold, work through their fears and insecurities, and to embrace their authenticity.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Alaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023
Jennifer Agee: Hello, hello, and welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I'm your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. And with me today is Patrick Casale. Welcome to the program.
Patrick Casale: Thank you for having me on.
Jennifer Agee: So, Patrick and I are going to be talking about a heavier subject matter today. Yesterday, in the news, um, it came out that Twitch, a very well-known, um, DJ — and was just actually well-known for lots of things — completed suicide. And it's brought up a lot of really interesting conversations in social media, and I thought it would be helpful if Patrick and I just had a really honest conversation about it. And hopefully, it'll prove helpful to you, not only when you work with clients but maybe even within yourself as you maybe have had those thoughts as well. So, thanks for entering into a complicated or difficult conversation with me today, Patrick.
Patrick Casale: Yeah, I'm happy to have that conversation. I think it's important that we talk about these things, and we normalize that these feelings for so many of us exist. And I think people, um, you know, react typically shocked, or like, I can't believe this could have happened. Look at how loved this person was, or how famous, or how surrounded they were by a, b and c or how they presented on social media. And the, the truth of the matter is we just really never know what somebody's dealing with behind the scenes.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. I think that's the scary part though, right? Because if we could always see it, then we would always be prepared or feel prepared to try and help prevent it. But so many people that actually follow through with attempts or completion, they get quiet on us, or they act like everything's okay, and it feels then like it came out of left field. Like, they started doing so much better. I just can't believe this happened that kind of stuff.
Patrick Casale: Yeah, and I think that's what's confusing for people is that they don't always understand the, the mechanism behind it or how long somebody has been suffering and hiding it. Even if they've talked publicly about their own struggle or have advocated against, you know, or for mental health care, they may have been suffering their entire lives, but putting on this brave face and false front. And it takes an enormous amount of energy to pretend that everything's okay. And then being thrust into a position of fame or a claim or influence, it's almost as if, like, I don't feel okay and now I feel ashamed that I don't feel okay because things are going so well, and that feels even more complex.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, the face you have to put on to keep up the facade that everything is okay is tremendous pressure. I mean, I know we've talked about that behind the scenes 'cause Patrick and I are actually really good friends. And, um, if either of us is struggling, usually the other one will know about it so that we can provide support, you know, for, for each other with different things that life brings up. But it's often your very inner circle that may know something is going on with you, and maybe even not that, because a lot of times if people are really deep in the thought, I have found, when you have the conversations with people, they don't necessarily want the option taken off the table. And if they say it out loud, then all of a sudden, it's gonna prompt action on someone else's part and they might not want that.
Patrick Casale: Yep. I worked at a, um, walk-in, 24-hour crisis unit for quite some time. And people who are suicidal, it's, it, it, a lot of people I think have this misconception that it is this impulsive action that just came out of nowhere. And at times, yes, that can be true. That certainly is not off the table. For a lot of people, they have been having thoughts of suicidality for their entire lives, and whether it's just been fleeting or passive or just a thought without intention, that doesn't mean it hasn't existed before. And being able to talk about it openly often comes with repercussion. And we would have so many people that would come into the crisis unit who were so well versed in what to say versus what not to say, because they had been petitioned or involuntarily committed before for saying, "Hey, I feel suicidal. I have a plan. I, I want to take action." And it becomes such an ethical dilemma because, as therapists, were trained to safety and crisis plan, and dot the i's and cross the t's, and make sure that everyone's gonna be okay. And a lot of it is a CYA process. I mean, I'm not gonna, you know, sugarcoat that. There's a lot of it about, um, you know, this is something that I have to do for my job and my license and to make sure that I'm checking all the boxes. But at the end of the day, you know, I, I just always feel like people who have it in their minds, it doesn't remove it from being in their minds just because you've created some sort of safety plan, or action, or, even worse, you've hospitalized someone because they were suicidal. I actually think that that makes it significantly worse in a lot of, uh, cases, and it also ensures that that person's never gonna reach out for help again.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Yeah. Because then you, you've really penalized their honesty. And it's a, you're right, there's a CYA part, a pucker factor that comes, I think, for therapists, of not wanting anyone to die on their watch, so to speak. And it, it, it brings something up in us when our clients say that, for liability purposes, for caring about and being compassionate people and not wanting that, that to be the choice that someone makes. And it does, kind of, put us in a different head space, and I think, especially for those of us therapists who have had those thoughts ourselves, which is very normal, by the way. Um, thinking of not being here is very normal. When the brain and body is in pain, it will look for its quickest way out. And, and even briefly thinking of that as an option is very, very normal. Now, some of us might struggle more with major depression or things, and we have contemplated it more seriously. Um, and I think for those of us therapists who have, which I'm someone who struggles with depression, it gives me tremendous insight and compassion actually with my clients to know how to ask better questions. Because I know the thought doesn't always equal action or even the intention of action, and the shaming language around it is kind of removed because I understand that when you're in that much pain, your, your brain is really lying to you, you know? It is telling you all this stuff that makes these decisions incredibly justifiable and in sometimes honorable — the better thing to do for your family or, um, "I'm freeing them from X, Y, or Z." And so, the thought distortions that go into it are really significant.
Patrick Casale: Yeah, absolutely, really significant. And being able to have honest conversation about it, you know, can really combat that and keep it at bay. And at least allow you to know that it's okay to talk about it, because we know that if we don't talk about things, our thoughts can start to consume our, our processes and also impact our behavior and our actions. So, I do think that there's such a, a fear factor there in terms of, "Can I say this out loud? And if I say this out loud, what are the consequences of that?" And if you're able to find someone that you're able to talk to about a lot of these deeper, darker things, it can really normalize the fact that, like, it is okay to think about this. It is okay to have these thoughts. It's not that there's something wrong with me because I'm, I'm really depressed and I'm having, you know, suicidal ideation. Um, and I think as helpers we just really need to be more comfortable sitting in the room, too, when people talk about this stuff and not getting squeamish. I still to this day remember an outpatient therapist at the community mental health agency I was working at stopping her comprehensive clinical assessment because the client let them know they were be, they had thoughts of suicidality, and walking the client down into the crisis unit to, to hand over to us. And I was just thinking to myself, like, one, that's just assured that this client's never gonna seek services again. Two, was this client gonna commit suicide while you were writing the assessment with them in the room? I mean, it just goes to show you how squeamish we are when we're talking about things that make us uncomfortable.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, and I, I like that example 'cause it's a very specific real-world, world example that if anyone is listening is in that situation where they're doing an assessment or having a conversation, the conversation doesn't have to stop. It's okay to just be present with the person, uh, hear their story, let, let it unfold. You don't have to jump into immediate crisis mode. And I know you and I have both, um, had people that are close to us who have died by suicide. For me, it was my father when I was young. And if you've listened to the pods-, podcast before, that's a part of my origin story. Really, it's how I became a therapist. It was the first time I saw a therapist and what kind of propelled me along, along the way. And you had mentioned that you've had friends, as well, that have passed that way.
Patrick Casale: Yep. Yeah. My best friend, um, committed suicide when I was a freshman in college in our dorm room suite. And, you know, it, there's such a, a wide range of emotions that take over as the survivors of that person who loved them. And I think we often oftentimes jump to selfishness. Like, that's the statement I always hear was, like, "That was such a selfish act. How could they have done that to everyone who loves them?" And I just want to challenge people to think about the flip side of, if you are gonna, if that has happened and that act has been completed, that person was in agony beyond all belief. They were not thinking about how it was going to negatively impact the people around them or how it was going to really, really, really create pain and suffering for the people who cared about them.
Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. And also going back to if you yourself have ever been depressed and have entertained this thought for more than a nanosecond, there is tremendous thought distortion that goes into this thinking about what the repercussions of your death will mean for people. There's a lot of justifications that go in behind it of how this could be better off for other people and things like that. So, in the mind of the person that, that is contemplating suicide, often for them, they don't see that as a selfish act. Many times, what I've heard described by a lot of people is that, for them, it feels like the most selfless act because they're sacrificing themselves so the rest of their family doesn't have to be burdened by their mental health, their financial issues, their insert issue here, you know?
Patrick Casale: Absolutely. And I think a lot of people also, you know, are looking at it as relief. You know, that's oftentimes the description is this felt like unbelievable relief or liberation. And it's just really important to try to look at this with a wider lens instead of looking at it as, you know, this was either selfish or this was impulsive. And I think that there's so many factors here to explore, and it's so complex, and there's, you know, societal factors, there's your own genetics and mental health, there's how you were raised, there's your trauma history at stake, there's addiction at stake. I mean, there's so much. And you know, for someone like myself, who had a gambling addiction for so much of my life, the propensity and the prevalency of suicidality and gambling addiction are very high and higher than any other addiction, because of the fact that it is a psychological addiction, because of the financial devastation and destruction that is caused by the person who's addicted. And I cannot tell you how many times I lost all of my money at the casino, didn't have a plan of what was coming next, because when you're in it, you're in it, and you're not thinking about that clearly. And I definitely contemplated driving my car off a cliff multiple times. And it wasn't even a second thought, and it was real. And when that, that feeling takes over, it's, it's pretty strong to not give into that urge because there's this hopelessness, desperation that exists and it, it just doesn't feel like there's another way out.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. You're exactly right. It, it is this, this sense of de- desperation where your brain stopped seeing the other options that are on the table for you. What do you think stopped you from following through?
Patrick Casale: Oh man. I don't know. I, those feelings were so intense, and, you know, it's– I try to think about that from time to time as like a grounding mechanism to circle back when you're thinking, wow, life is complicated or, or really hard right now. And yeah, it has been worse. And I know we can all probably say that in some capacity. I don't know. I, I don't really know because I didn't have the quote-unquote, like, protective factors that we always search for. Like, a lot of people would say, well, I have my dog, or I have my family, or my kids, or, you know, I have this hobby that I really enjoy, and, and for me that simply wasn't true. Um, I wish I had the answer. I'm glad I did not go through with it. Um, but ultimately, I just know that, in those moments, it's really hard. You're almost having this like internal war between both dialogues of this is the way to do this. This is what will solve this issue, right? Like, the debt will be gone, you won't owe this money, you won't have to figure out what comes next, all that stuff. You won't have to face the, like, shamefulness of what you've done. And then the other side is like, yeah, but like that's it. And I think that part won out maybe by like a sliver. But ultimately, it was a probably a very close call, especially because a lot of this was happening immediately after my friend had died. So, it was like very, very, very fresh in my mind as an option.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I think for me, um, what kept me from actually following through — and I have had attempts, I'll be honest; I, I, you know, I've had two attempts when I was younger — um, but as I got older and really had better means to follow through, I'll be honest, um, the thing that repeatedly stopped me was the thought of my grandparents, because they had lost my father, their son. And our family was always very open about his death. They never lied to me. I was, I was young. I was six when he died. They never lied to me about how he died. We were very open about it. They were open about their pain. They were open about their healing. And I loved them more, it, their, my love for them was greater than my pain was in the moment, if that makes sense. And as I've gotten older and matured more, I'm able to hold both, both spaces, right? My brain is able to say, this is what, maybe my biology is wanting to take me on this ride and make me believe this absolute pile of shit, and I can also hold the reality that I know that it's not true. I know that this is gonna pass. I've been through this cycle enough that I know, if I do these things, it's gonna move through, and one day I'll wake up, and it'll be like the fresh air came back on again. So, it would, it's different reasons now I think of, of why I don't necessarily go to that place. But really for me, probably if it wasn't for my grandparents, I don't know if I would be here today. 'Cause those thoughts are ugly and they are freaking, I mean, compelling liars. Compelling.
Patrick Casale: Yeah. And it's, it's wonderful to be able to pinpoint that and say, I, I think this is what I can, you know, remember being the solace or the saving grace there. And it's hard because you start to think about, what about the people who don't have that? You know, what do you, what do you offer people who, who don't have a lot of hope to hang their hat on? And it's a really challenging thing to, to, to discuss in our society. I think it's one of those taboo topics. You know, until it happens, we don't talk about it, and then we're really upset about it, and then it's like, okay, but now it's quiet again, and I don't wanna talk about it too much 'cause it'll, like, bring its up, bring it up, and it's really ugly and painful and emotional. So, I wonder, you know, aside from seeing a therapist, right, like, which I think everybody should be doing if they have the means to do so or they're able to do so in general, but, like, what else can we do in terms of continued advocacy for suicide prevention and, and awareness? Because I do think, I've always been a firm believer of talking about the struggle publicly, and I always think that feels normalizing. And I'll use my platform now to talk about things that other people can't always put a voice to. And I just, um, it's just something that I think we need to continue to figure out as a society, because you, you know, I'm seeing a lot of posts from — I didn't ever watch Ellen. I didn't even know who Twitch was. You know, I'm sad about it because it's a sad situation, but I, I have no tie to it. But one person who did commit suicide that I, you know, have a lot of strong emotion to is Anthony Bourdain. And it's interesting, because you can look at these people, and you could look at him and say, oh, I kind of thought that might happen eventually, and I think a lot of his friends and colleagues did too. Yet it wasn't preventable. And then you'll have people who do it where you're like, I never could have seen that coming because of all these protective factors. But then it still happens. So it's really complicated.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. If it was, if it was easy to see and we had a neon sign on our forehead, that would be one thing. But humans are really freaking complicated, and that's just not the way it works. And we're very good at masking and presenting in the way that we know is gonna make people around us more comfortable or is gonna help us get through the day without people asking questions, um, especially for those of us who are therapists or very well educated. We know the right things to say or do so that people don't notice. You know, you have to learn what your own personal tells are too, right? Like, um, there are a couple things that I know when my system does a couple of things or starts craving a couple of things, I know that I have to be incredibly, incredibly mindful. And it took me years to figure out what those were because nobody ever, in all the years I saw, I saw a therapist, nobody ever talked to me about trying to figure out when are the first sign or symptoms that a switch is starting to occur for you. Nobody ever asked me that question, so I was never reflective about it. Um, but once I did figure that out, it's been incredibly helpful and, kind of, really staving off the worst of it because I can be proactive earlier. But for me it's more mood-shift-related. So, I can feel it like a couple of days before it starts coming on. But other people, if it's addiction-related or other things, they might not necessarily have those tells.
Patrick Casale: Yeah, that's a great point. And you know that awareness is, is really key because I think for myself too, I can, I can tell when I'm slipping into a more depressed mood. And I can at least name it and tell people that care about me, like, "Hey, I'm, I'm starting to feel a certain way. I think this is where I'm gonna be at for the next couple of weeks." Kind of know what to expect, but I also have a lot of insight into the process, and I know a lot of people also don't have that luxury. And, you know, if you're in active addiction, you're not thinking clearly in general anyway, and your brain's, kind of, working from, uh, a impulsivity state. I mean, it's the same thing for someone who has really severe mental illness. I mean, it's really challenging then, so you're right. I mean, the tells are crucial. Being able to talk to your, your support system is crucial. I mean, being able to just voice it, and say it to someone like, "Hey, I'm, I'm really struggling." And again, without the fear of repercussion of like, now I'm gonna be shamed or chastised or stigmatized. And, and unfortunately even in 2022, going into 23, mental health still carries a heavy fucking burden.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, it does. And it's ridiculous, but it does. Because we work with enough people, um, you know, as therapists, that we see the behind the scenes of, uh, the pretty houses and the behind the scenes of the messy houses, right? And both can be extremely messy. What you see on the forward-facing presentation is not necessarily at all reflective of what's happening behind the surface.
Patrick Casale: No. And I, you know, I think that's why it's important not to just reach out to people in your life who you know are struggling but checking on, on those who don't say much at all. I mean, you know the people who, when you ask them how they're doing, they're like, "Yeah, I'm fine. Everything's good." Like, those people are also struggling in some way or another. So I think we often really hyper focus on those that we clearly know are having a hard time. And some people just mask it a lot better than others in a lot of ways, too.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. I think, too, like even in the country, in the country, there's, we have an epidemic of loneliness. There's so much connection without real connection or true connection that really gives you that felt experience of feeling like people care about you. But yet you could have hundreds or thousands of friends on social media or things that you interact with. And I wonder, I really do wonder if that's a part of why our suicide numbers are rising is because a lot of people don't have their tribe anymore. It's lonely. It can be very lonely.
Patrick Casale: Yeah. I think, you know, you add in the amount of time we spend on social media, how we kind of view our lives and our successes, uh, I mean a lot of us are in capitalism grind mode all the time. I'm not doing as much as so-and-so, and I'm not posting the pictures so-and-so is posting, or whatever the case may be, and really gauging how we're doing based upon how we're doing in this virtual reality almost and losing sight over the things that are right in front of us. I mean, it's escapism too. And, you know, I, I've always believed that addiction is the opposite of connection, and I think the same thing for these really significant mental health concerns. It's just the opposite of connection in a lot of ways of saying like, "I'm here but I'm not really present and I'm not really able to be."
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Casale: And it's really easy to have this negative, irrational thinking process and pattern when you're really not centered in your day-to-day and, and just the things that are really meaningful to you.
Jennifer Agee: When you get to those low spots, what do you need? What is it that you feel like is helpful or that you really need?
Patrick Casale: I like to, you know, I, I, I'm someone who really appreciates just raw authenticity of like, sometimes this is just gonna really suck type of mentality. And I think what's been helpful for me is being able to tell close friends and colleagues like, "Hey, I'm struggling." And not having them try to fix it. Because sometimes you don't need it to be fixed. It's just you need it to be validated. And from my experience, validation and just that reinforcement of, okay, I'm here. I'll check in on you if that's okay. And, you know, just having that is really important for me. Um, because otherwise, it's, you know, I, I, I just have a really hard time if someone's like, yeah, but look on the bright side today, or like, think about how good life is. And I'm like, fuck you. Like, I don't, that's not gonna work for me. So, you know, I, I really do think it's just having people who are in my corner who are there, whether things are bad or good, and who are gonna say, is it okay if I can check on you, instead of just like, you know, bombarding you with, with messages or check-ins as well.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I, I, I agree 'cause I think if I had people that then if I shared that with them and then they hyperfocused on the depression or really dark thoughts, that would be the opposite of helpful for me. Like, so I made a deal with myself years ago, which is when I can feel that this is coming on, there are three people I always tell. And they know that they're my designated three people. I always tell. So, uh, because my, my inclination is when I'm not doing well, I withdraw. So, I get quiet. I, I pull in. You'll, you'll notice like if, if — well now I don't probably notice — I'll get really quiet on social media 'cause normally I'm active 'cause it's fun for me. I'm an extrovert. But, um, I'll get, I'll get quiet, and that's definitely one of my tells. I also always start craving baths. So, for whatever reason, like if I, if I nor- start realizing I really am craving being in the, in the bathtub, like water, that's a tell. Something's not good. But I tell three people, and what I need for them is just to know. I don't necessarily need them to do anything. And I remember one year, um, and this was really at the height of happiness in my life, right? My kids are doing amazing, my marriage is great, um, the company I ran at the time was phenomenal, I was doing really fulfilling work that felt amazing, and I absolutely wanted to die. And one of my designated people I had told, and she, um, it had been a couple days since I talked to her, and she said, "I'm coming to take you to lunch, and we don't have to talk, but we're just gonna eat lunch." And I said, "Okay, no, no problem." And we sat in a booth, and she held my hand, and I just cried. There was nothing that she could have done, because I know myself and I know that this is gonna pass, but her just being present and, and me knowing that I'm not alone as I'm waiting for it to pass was enough. That was support, that was, that was loving me in the way that I needed. And I think, in our fear, we don't often ask people what is it that they really need? And we just jump in with all of our holy shitness of what can we try and fix so that nobody dies on our watch.
Patrick Casale: Yeah, that's well said. And I think it's like this, holy shit, I don't want anyone to die on my watch, right? It's also an anxiety process of I don't know what to do, and that makes me uncomfortable, so I have to now hyperfocus on the problem. And that's not helpful for most people. But, you know, it's interesting because you and I have become good friends, and we were in Hawaii over in August together. And we're in Hawaii, right? We're in this beautiful place, this paradise, and we're traveling, and we're working, and it's great. Like, we have successful businesses, and you and I were fucking miserable.
Jennifer Agee: Yes.
Patrick Casale: And I could not shake it. And I know you were struggling too. And what helped was just going away from the conference we were at, and driving around the island, and getting in the ocean, and, like, just being able to disconnect in a way, but also, I didn't have to create conversation. I didn't have to force anything. Like, you knew I was having a hard time. I knew you were having a hard time. That stuff is helpful for sure. And I have a couple of friends locally who, if I'm struggling or they're struggling, it's kind of the same text of like, "Hey, I'm having a hard time. Do you wanna get food, or do you want to do something? I don't really feel like talking though." And for me, I'm like, "Yeah, that's, that's perfect." I, I'm totally on board to not have to have pressure to have conversations. So that stuff is really, really helpful.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, exactly. Just being present with someone without the pressure of having to be performative, either on your part or their part, I think is hugely beneficial. Yeah. Like a lot of times over the years, I'll just tell my husband, like, just sit and hold my hand while I'm in the bathtub. I, you know, you can read a book or be on your phone. I don't care. Just be near because that helps calm my system and helps me feel good, but there's nothing that I need you to do. There's nothing really you can do, but just be here.
Patrick Casale: Right.
Jennifer Agee: And having those people and, and really in your moments when you're not depressed, think about what is it that I need so that you can have those designated people that know how to meet you in that space has been a game changer for me in going through those seasons.
Patrick Casale: Absolutely. Yeah. I think you need to create these, these, kind of, fallbacks and resource plans when you're in a good head space. It's really challenging to think about this stuff or think, um, creatively in terms of what you need when you are struggling. It is really hard to see anything but the struggle in those moments.
Jennifer Agee: I completely agree. And for anyone who's been depressed, it's like thinking through mud. You know, if the thoughts were flowing easily and our brains were thinking rationally, we wouldn't be in this place, you know? It's because our brain isn't thinking rationally and we are trying to, trying to think through mud that, um, those things are hard. Seeing those options–
Patrick Casale: Those thoughts can be flooding too.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Patrick Casale: You know, I circle back to like, um, addiction and haven't gambled since 2012, but there's still temptation. And I remember driving past the casino near my house like a year ago, and there's no cell service out there. It's in the middle of nowhere. I drove past it and all of a sudden, like, all the feelings came back of like, "Oh, you could just pull in. You could just do this thing. Nobody has to know. You know, you can lie to your wife about it. It would be easy. You won't even lose that much money. Look how much better you are." But I know that if I can wait for 15 minutes and get through that, those thoughts, then they will be gone. So, I drove. I put my music up really loud. I put a song on that I really like. And I kept driving. I sped a little bit faster than I probably should have, but 15 minutes later I wasn't even thinking about it. And it can be said to say the same thing with depressive episodes too, where it's like sometimes you just have to ride that wave out a little bit and it will dissipate. But I know the intensity of it as well can be really, really scary.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. But I think bringing up distraction is a good point, that even in those darker moments, like, putting on a song and forcing yourself to do, like, shake dance therapy in the kitchen or some, something like that. A little movement. You get some energy going. It does start to shift things. I mean, there's a shit ton of research that backs that up. Um, and it really does. Now, it might not keep it at bay then forever 'cause you just had this great shake dance therapy in the, you know, in the kitchen. But it's probably gonna help for a little bit. It's gonna help shift the mood, even 2, 3, 5 degrees in the, in a healthier direction. And that's still a win.
Patrick Casale: Yeah, absolutely. These things do not have to be monumental in nature. I mean, it just can be something that keeps that at bay temporarily until you can strengthen and solidify the resources that you have so that you are more prepared the next time that it comes over to you.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Um, so for the, the people that are listening, I just, I hope, I hope in hearing Patrick and I speak really honestly about our experiences, I hope that it encourages you to be honest with your own experiences. I hope it encourages you to, when you're not in a depressed place, make a plan for what you want to do and how to ask the people that are closest to you to support you so you get the right kind of support during that time. And they don't have to go into panic mode. And maybe even you have, um, a word or you'll let them know, like, I promise not to lie to you. If I'm at a place and you ask me, are you feeling suicidal? I give you my word, I won't lie to you. And maybe there's only one or two people that you give your word like that to, and that's okay. But make a plan when you're not depressed, because I promise you it really will help. Don't be afraid of the conversations in the room. Uh, social media is an, is an illusion. I mean, we all try and, not we all, I will say, I know Patrick and I try and show up authentically, but even us being authentic, I still know, because we're friends, there's behind the scenes happening, you know, with different things in our life that you, you know, you don't share everything with everyone. That's not appropriate. But, um, it’s okay to be authentic. It's okay to struggle. We're all humans just doing the best we can. And you really don't have to be alone in this. So, thank you so much for tuning in, and if you have any questions or anything that we can do to help support you, please feel free to reach out. You can contact me, counselingcommunity.com, on all the socials as well. And, Patrick, how can people contact you?
Patrick Casale: Yeah, if you wanna reach out or view any of my work or listen to my podcast, I have the All Things Private Practice Podcast, you can join the All Things Private Practice Facebook group, and my website is at allthingspractice.com.
Jennifer Agee: Thank you again for being on and thank you for your openness and honesty. I hope it lands and I hope it helps someone. Have a good day, and I hope everyone gets out there and lives their best dang life.