Jamie Roberts, LMFT, and I talk about the importance of understanding the nuance of neurodiversity, the validity of self-diagnosis and leading with authenticity. In grad school, we are taught how to check the boxes of diagnosis but Jamie shares the importance of secondary questions and how listening to people with lived experience can help you become a better clinician, partner or friend.
Jamie Roberts is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, as well as the author of the book Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety, a practical guide to manage stress, ease worry and find calm. Jamie is the founder of Equilibrium Counseling Services, a teen and young adult mental health center in Southern California. ECS is a place where all identities and brains are celebrated, with the goal of building confidence in identity, and reducing symptoms of depression and anxiety. Jamie is the Neurodivergent Therapist throughout social media and is an active speaker on Neurodivergent and Teen topics, from ND Affirming training for graduate-level therapists, to Autism and ND Advocacy groups, as well as podcasts and documentaries on later in life diagnosis. Jamie has been diagnosed with ADHD, and actively shares her experiences with her later-in-life diagnosis.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Jamie Roberts, LMFT, and I talk about the importance of understanding the nuance of neurodiversity, the validity of self-diagnosis and leading with authenticity. In grad school, we are taught how to check the boxes of diagnosis but Jamie shares the importance of secondary questions and how listening to people with lived experience can help you become a better clinician, partner or friend.
Jamie Roberts is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, as well as the author of the book Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety, a practical guide to manage stress, ease worry and find calm. Jamie is the founder of Equilibrium Counseling Services, a teen and young adult mental health center in Southern California. ECS is a place where all identities and brains are celebrated, with the goal of building confidence in identity, and reducing symptoms of depression and anxiety. Jamie is the Neurodivergent Therapist throughout social media and is an active speaker on Neurodivergent and Teen topics, from ND Affirming training for graduate-level therapists, to Autism and ND Advocacy groups, as well as podcasts and documentaries on later in life diagnosis. Jamie has been diagnosed with ADHD, and actively shares her experiences with her later-in-life diagnosis.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Jennifer Agee: Hello. Hello, and welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I'm your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. Today I have with me Jamie Roberts. Jamie is an LMFT. She's an author and the founder of Equilibrium, Equilibrium Counseling Services. So welcome to the show, Jamie.
Jamie Roberts: Thank you for having me, Jennifer. I'm excited to be here.
Jennifer Agee: I'm really excited you're here too because I actually got to know you more from TikTok. We met briefly in Nashville. We are Facebook friends, so I think we know each other's lives a little bit from social media, but, um, I'm glad we're getting to have a conversation, and I love the topic today. The topic is neurodiversity and the validity of self-diagnosis. Such a timely topic. So, thank you for being on.
Jamie Roberts: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I, I love talking about neurodiversity. It, it, it's my life. It's my client's life. It's my special interest. So, I could talk about it for days, and it's something that we don't talk about in grad school at all.
Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. I was actually just talking to, um– I'm a clinical supervisor and I just had a group on, and we were talking about all the things we didn't know in grad school. And now I've been a therapist since 1999. So, you know, there's a lot that we know now that we didn't know then.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: But even just who went through this, uh, finished school like a year or two ago.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: There's still so much that it's shocking to me they're not taught about the way a neurodivergent brain works.
Jamie Roberts: It– that's exactly what I was wanting to talk about is I feel like in grad school we learn about mood disorders. We learn about the emotional aspect, but a huge component that's left out is how the brain processes information, and how what a variety of ways in which we all learn, and we all take in information, and we all share information as being a part of, like, what's gonna affect us clinically, processing emotion and trauma with our clients.
Jennifer Agee: Were you diagnosed when you were in grad school or afterwards? Do you mind telling me a little bit about that story?
Jamie Roberts: Sure. Um, I always just thought I had a hard time spelling, or, you know, I just had to work hard. I was the, the type of ADHD that was perfectionistic, so it didn't show up at school, because it was the OCD kind of perfectionistic. I had all, everything turned in, to the top, perfect grades, UCLA, so nobody noticed it there. But at home, everything was complete chaos. So, all anyone who would've diagnosed me didn't see it. And then I was working with an adolescent psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD and autism, and I was doing assessments for him as part of my internship and started having some cognitive issues, difficulty paying attention, brain fog, really forgetful, super scattered. Like, there was a point in my life where a lot of things changed, and just, cognitively, I declined.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: And I went to him one day. He had previously diagnosed me with dyslexia. He came to me, and he was like, "are you dyslexic?" And I was like, "am I?" And went down that rabbit hole. And then like a year later I went to him, and I was like, "am I ADHD?" And he looked back, and he was like, "you are." And so, then we had a whole, he did an assessment with me. And so, I was, I was 31. I was out of grad school. I was licensed. I hadn't yet started, no, I had just started my private practice. So, there were all these things that I had gone through. And looking back with a diagnosis as an adult, there's this experience of relief and grief.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: Relief that I now know and it all makes sense, but like this grief of like, wow, all of this was so hard, or I stress myself out so much not knowing that my brain was taking in the information so differently.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: And that just tweaking my environment makes everything so much easier.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I, I'm the only person in my family, uh, that's not neurodivergent.
Okay. I've taken every test, and all of them are like, no, I'm sorry. Your brain just works in a super typical way. But everyone else in my family is neurodivergent, and I'll tell you, um, my daughter's diagnosis surprised, surprised me because she was very much more like you.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: Everything was always turned in, she never had any issues in school in terms of being compliant, she never got into trouble, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And it honestly, I, I mean, I'm just being honest, it wasn't till she got to college when she was like, "mom, I am studying and studying, and I am doing all the things, and I take the test, and my brain cannot pull it together." And I was like, "bing, bing, bing. Um, I think, I think we might need to do a little looking." And when we did, she ended up with an ADHD diagnosis, and it was a game changer for her, um, in school. But even me, as a therapist, having a child in my home, I did not catch all of the things. I wish I did, but I, I just didn't.
Jamie Roberts: Yeah. I mean, sometimes when you're so close to it, right, we're seeing it skewed differently than when we were seeing it as a therapist. So that piece makes sense. But there's such a variety of how it presents that a lot gets missed, and especially in high-achieving women, it absolutely gets missed the most.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, and I think that's where grad school really does us a huge disservice, because autism is painted, um, in a very specific light.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: Um, so if you're not seeing those very specific presentations of autism, then you don't think about it.
Jamie Roberts: Right.
Jennifer Agee: Same with if you have ADHD, but you don't have a hyperactive subtype. We tend not to be really taught much about it.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: And so, I think that's where really we're dropping the ball. And having voices like yours and, and others that are coming forward and saying, "no, this is what it looks like in day-to-day life," is giving us, you know, neurotypicals the language to even ask the right questions so that we are able to help get our clients to figuring out whether or not this is something going on with them.
Jamie Roberts: You're absolutely right, and a thing that I've done in a lot of my talks and trainings is the secondary questions. That it's not just this first line of like, oh, well, "do you run late? Yes, or no?" " No." But if I ask the secondary question of like, "well, what do you do to not run late?" A neurotypical person might say, "well, it starts at a certain time, so I get there enough time before."
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: I would say like, well I set multiple alarms. I get ready extra early. I, kind of, map out what my morning's gonna be before, and you know what, I still like log on minutes before and forgot to turn in the form to you when I filled it out two days ago.
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Jamie Roberts: Right? But it's like, but when we turn it on, I've got the form done. I'm here on time, it's ready to go. Let's talk.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: But there's all this that happens before we get there. So, if it's just a yes or no answer, like on, like, the checklist that we're given, it doesn't catch everyone. We have to ask more nuanced questions to understand the process to which you get there.
Jennifer Agee: Which is where the power of your voice I think really comes into play, because I don't think in that way. So, I don't even know until I sit with people that have lived experience to ask those questions in that way. I just, I just don't know 'cause my brain doesn't work that way.
Jamie Roberts: And I think that's where self-diagnosis is so valid and comes into play. Because if somebody came into my office and said, "I have anxiety," I'm not gonna say, "well, who diagnosed you with that?"
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Jamie Roberts: I'm gonna take you at face value. You've got anxiety. All right, let's work on your anxiety. So, why is it when someone comes in and says, like, I have ADHD, I'm pretty sure I have ADHD, or I've done all this research, I've done all these online assessments. I'm autistic. All my friends are autistic. I've, like, scored this on the RAADS–R, like all of this. And then somebody says, well, but have you been officially diagnosed?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: But if I'm identifying with it, if it aligns for me, if it makes sense from my experience, why wouldn't I go with the client there?
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: Because like you said, there's a lot of things we aren't taught, or there's holes in it, or we haven't thought to ask that question. And especially when you get like an autistic client or– a lot, most neurodivergents, we've done a plethora of research on our own before even stepping forward and saying, I think this is me.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I love that because it, it's also going into, we can trust that the client is identifying with whatever it is that's described.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: Um, and it's giving them the language to describe their experience. And that alone is powerful, having the words and the tools and the language to be able to express and explain what's happening, um, so that, then we also then come, come up with tools to help around that.
Jamie Roberts: Name it to tame it. Dan Siegel.
Jennifer Agee: Exactly. Yes.
Jamie Roberts: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: Yeah, so, I think there's starting to be a shift, and I'm hoping there's more of a shift of some of these self-assessment tools or these assessments at a master's level for us clinicians to be able to do, because so much psychological testing or neuro, neuro test, neuropsych testing is prohibitive. And then, not everybody has access to it. And a lot of times, as adults, insurance isn't even gonna cover it.
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Jamie Roberts: So, I think there is a move towards that. I'm hoping that grad schools also will start incorporating some of that into the conversation because this topic has grown so much in the last couple years.
Jennifer Agee: I especially think TikTok has grown because it shrank your community, right? The algorithm is so flipping good that if you tend to be watching certain types of videos, it's like, hey, this may be you.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: And you, a lot of people have come in and said, "okay, don't laugh at me, but I took this quiz 'cause of TikTok, or I heard all these people talking on TikTok about their experience, and it sounds just like me.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm. Well, a 30 to 60-second video about the things that I find most interesting, of course TikTok is gonna suck us in.
Jennifer Agee: Exactly.
Jamie Roberts: I also think, like, everything lined up. Like, with the pandemic, I think it did two things. I think it took us out of that structure that a lot of us need that externally opposed structure to function in the neurotypical world. And we lost that. So then, we had to figure out other ways, or there was more distress. And I think the opposite end is a lot of people got taken out of the overstimulating, almost stimulating, difficult environments they were in, and got to be home, got to be in their comfort zone, and got to unmask.
Jennifer Agee: Mm.
Jamie Roberts: And then having to go back into that just doesn't work anymore. So, I think on two sides we had more distress 'cause we lost our structure, but we had more comfort because we took the mask off that was so uncomfortable and got to be ourselves. And then TikTok started naming it, and a lot of people are now saying, like, "it all makes sense now."
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, uh, so, in what ways do you feel like understanding your neurodiversity has been really helpful for you as a clinician?
Jamie Roberts: As a clinician?
Jennifer Agee: Well, you can give me both. Like as, you know, you as the person and you as also the person who's a clinician. Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm. I think, as a clinician, it has allowed me to be more supportive of myself of thinking outside of the box. That, I think in grad school that there's a very like small window that this is how you're supposed to act as a therapist, and these are the hard rules. And I think we all learn this when we get out into the world that those rules aren't as rigid as they teach us in grad school, and we can, kind of, figure out our own space. But I think adding onto that with a level of neurodivergence is accepting that some of my neurodivergent quirks are what the clients are looking for. So, as soon as I dyed my hair purple, so many people started calling me, and said, "I picked you on Psychology Today because your hair is purple, and my hair is blue." And I'm like, awesome. Cool.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: And so, when I started showing that, and I started unmasking, I started just being all of myself, those clients started finding me. And it was just like, I see myself in you, and I get to show up that way. So, I think understanding my neurodivergence, one, allowed me to speak to my ideal client in that new way. Also, how I describe it for some clients is when I'm sitting in a room with a, with a, with a client, I'm thinking of, like, 12 different things. What is your body language? What words are you saying right now? How are you expressing it? What did you say last week? Oh yeah. What was that person's name? What was that backstory? Is the air okay? Am I comfortable? What intervention am I gonna use right now? How should I respond? I'm thinking of like 12 different thoughts at the same time to be able to say that next thing. And I think my ADHD shows up very well because I'm hyperfocused on you right in front of me. Everything else it doesn't exist except us in this room. And I'm able to have all of these tabs come up on my window in my brain and pick which ones are gonna fit most specifically right here, right now.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, you're multitasking, in that moment, for sure, for your client's best interest. I just really want to say how much I appreciate and value that, um, a part of this conversation is lending to the voice of authenticity in our marketing, because I do think when you're going through grad school, when you're a new clinician, you have this very prescriptive kind of idea of what you're supposed to be. And I think any of us who've been out here for a while understand the more authentic we become just with, in our daily life, but in our marketing, in our conversations with other clinicians, the more the right clients are attracted to you and the easier it just starts to flow. But that authenticity is so important.
Jamie Roberts: Absolutely. I think authenticity is, like, the cornerstone of it. Like, you have to show up as a real person. That's how you create that relationship. You, you can't be a blank wall. I feel like that's just not realistic.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: And I also under–, I've, kind of, changed it in my head as like grad school setting up the hard rules so that I knew what that home base was. And then I got to be able to, like, blend the rules as I got out. Um, I didn't say that as clearly as I wanted to, but like that that set up that foundation so that I could decide what rules I wanna break out of. I work primarily with teens, so I feel like at home, parents need to set these hard rules. We don't do this, we don't do that, we don't do this. But teens then get to decide, am I gonna follow this rule, or am I gonna push that boundary? And I feel like that's what therapists are doing too.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: Like, I had a, a TikTok kind of start to blow up yesterday because I talked about accepting gifts from clients. And in grad school, that is a hard rule. You never do. You absolutely do absolutely nothing. And, like, that's not realistic. If a teenager comes to me saying, like, "I got this candle because it's lavender, and your room smelled like lavender," I'm gonna accept that, because that's... [CROSSTALK].
Jennifer Agee: Of course.
Jamie Roberts: Like, that's love. That's relationship. That's authenticity. That's real.
Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. Yeah. Some of my favorite, um, gifts are things that, that are in my office. Other clients would never know that they're from other clients, but are things that clients have made me. I worked with a woman one time who was, um, really, we were working on her hoarding.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: And we were focusing on the kitchen, and this was one of her areas, but she was also incredibly creative and artistic. And so, she made me something from what was in that room, and it's in my office. It's one of my favorite things. Every time I look at it, I think about her. I've not seen her for years, but I just, it brings up such warm and endearing thoughts. And, you know, she, she made effort because she valued the relationship. And how, how rude and disrespectful to the relationship to not honor that, I think.
Jamie Roberts: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: Absolutely agree with you there.
Jennifer Agee: They'll just get all, get weird though on stuff. I'll tell you. I mean, you could get in trouble for, you can say the most benign thing and somehow it can turn around and just chomp you in the hiney sometimes, but...
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: Anyway, I know that's not our topic; that's my side note.
Jamie Roberts: You have to keep the rules. The rules are important, but also the rules are not a hard line.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: We, like, knowing when it is therapeutic appropriately to, to move that or to accept that in all things with your authenticity. I self-disclose ‘cause I work with kids, but there's a limit to which I self-disclose.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: You know, like, I, they all know about my cats, but not, they haven't seen my living room where my cats sleep every day.
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Jamie Roberts: You know, even with telehealth. So, there's kind of those lines. Like, you know so much, but you don't know everything.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Which, healthy and appropriate side note, before we get back to neurodivergence, if you are a therapist, actually read your own rules and regulations for your specific, um, license, because so much of what I hear regurgitated is a rule, I'm like, show me where. Because that is something one of your grad school professors told you because that's where their boundary is.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: That's not actually in our rules and regulations. So...
Jamie Roberts: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Just saying. Gonna say, read it for yourself.
Jamie Roberts: Absolutely. Good caveat. A lot of times, they're suggestions or cautions, not hard rules.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. So, you wrote a book. Tell me a little bit about the book that you wrote.
Jamie Roberts: Yes, so I wrote a book, "Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety." It is a practical guide to find calm, ease worry, and decrease stress. I forgot those last order. But yes, it is, um, for teens. It is part psychoeducation about what, where anxiety comes from and what it is, part introduction to what mindfulness is and how we can utilize mindfulness to help us regulate our nervous system, and then part exercises. So, it's super colorful, it's interactive, it's very matter-of-fact, straightforward. You can use it today. And it's not advertised as for neurodivergence, but I'm neurodivergent, all of my clients are neurodivergent, so all of the activities in the book are the things that have worked for me and my clients. So, they're very accessible, they're sensory-friendly, they're, um, not nuanced. They're direct. Use it right now.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. So, one of the, one of the things that I have heard from a lot of my neurodivergent clients is that mindfulness is very, uh, or meditation is really hard for them, not necessarily mindfulness.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: So, what are some of the ways that you are creative with how you work with the way somebody's brain works, um, to set them up to have access to the benefit of, you know, of meditation and mindfulness?
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm. Well, we look at what are the same things that hit that part of the brain. So, like, coloring hits the same part of the brain as meditating. So, just having a coloring page, staying in the, not necessarily staying in the lines, mixing up the colors, but just being focused on one task that allows your brain to relax in other areas can be anything. So, I talk with clients, sometimes you can do mindful scrolling on social media. Are you, what are you intentionally looking at? Are you just seeing whatever comes up on your “for you” page? Are you looking for videos of dogs? And I'm gonna take some time, and I need to relax, so I'm just gonna watch a bunch of videos of dogs right now. That's mindful, because it's intentional. It's not mindless, just doing what's right in front of you. So, I think finding things that are also interactive, that release some dopamine, um, is what the neurodivergent brain craves also supports that mindful healing in that creativity.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I love, I love that. And thank you for the specific kind of tips. One of the things I've started doing at trainings is making sure there's always coloring things out. And that I let people know, like, attend to whatever sensory needs you have in this space. Like, I really could care less; you're not gonna bother me. So like, do, do your thing. It's totally, totally fine. Um, but I did, I saw a research article the other day that talked about how with ADHD, if it's diagnosed when you're a kid and you're treated, it doesn't necessarily turn into anxiety disorders, but I think it was by, by 22, if it wasn't diagnosed, that rate for anxiety disorder comorbidity goes up to like 45% or something. Um, have you, have you seen that research as well?
Jamie Roberts: Yes. Um, ADHD creates anxiety, and anxiety masks ADHD. And so, if it's not being identified or treated, ADHD creates a, or anxiety creates adrenaline, which creates dopamine, which then treats the ADHD. So, a lot of the times, we will use that procrastination and that anxiety of that procrastinating turns on the adrenaline to be able to, to get it done. Um, and so if you don't know what your brain is doing, you start self-medicating with anxiety in order to support that. Right. And so, if it's treated younger, you don't use that as your coping mechanism. But I do think anxiety is still gonna be a comorbidity because we're living in an, in a neurotypical world.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: And so, there's gonna be situations that are gonna be difficult, even if it's identified, even if it's treated, even if I'm on medication, I think there's still gonna be a level of anxiety, but I don't think it's gonna be as severe. And a lot of times, when the anxiety keeps going, it turns into the depression.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: And then it's the self-esteem, and then it's really critical, and then my ADHD gets worse, because I don't think I can do it, so why am I gonna try to do it? And now I'm sitting with the anxiety that, like, I have to do it, and I don't think I can do it, and now I'm a bad person, and it just spirals on that.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I'm a bad person, or I'm not as intelligent as someone else or, or whatever. Just thinking of my daughter calling from college, and I'm like, I know you are super wicked smart. So, the fact that your brain's not pulling the information tells me we, we've got a pro– there's something going on here to think about. One of the things, um, also that I've noticed with my neurodivergent friends and family is that y'all tend to like the same shows again and again because it doesn't make your brain work, I think, as hard because you can, you already know what's coming, like you don't have to anticipate what's new. So, in my family, I, I could tell you everybody's kind of special go-to thing. But, yeah, I've watched the same show a thousand times with my family members.
Jamie Roberts: New Girl, Gilmore Girls, and Schitt's Creek.
Jennifer Agee: That true.
Jamie Roberts: Those are, those are my– I like rotate them.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. My husband's is all the Harry Potters — I can't even tell you how many times we've seen those — um, or, or Lord of the Rings. Also, those would be the two that you know are frequently played at our house. My son is Star Wars. My daughter is like New Girl, Friends, you know, but it's The Office, repeat.
Jamie Roberts: Yeah. There's this like very special balance of, um, sensory input of, I want there to be noise in the room, but I don't want the noise to distract me. And sometimes the noise can be too much. So, if it's a show I'm familiar with, and I know what's coming next, it doesn't distract me, but it fills that space.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Makes sense.
Jamie Roberts: But if that's something, sense new, I have to engage with it. I don't know what's coming, and I have to pay attention. And sometimes I don't have the capacity to pay, to invest that much, but I need something on.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Jamie Roberts: And so, often, like a lot of people will recommend shows to me, and, like, "oh my gosh, you'll love this." And I'm like, "let me know when we're on season four of it." Because then I've already got an idea of it. I can binge through it. I can do it at my pace and I'm not, I don't know what's about to happen. I've already heard a little bit about what to anticipate.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's one of those quirky little things where, um, I just thought it was my family. And then, again, it was being around — I have a ton of neurodivergent friends 'cause I'm an entrepreneur. I'm like the only non-neurodivergent entrepreneur I know it seems like. I've, again, I've taken every test, and I'm just neurotypical — but, um, getting to know them and there, there's little quirks that kind of go, I think the brain tries to life hack itself, and TV shows or certain movies that you can watch where the brain doesn't have to work as hard are one of those things.
Jamie Roberts: And, and that's something I like to bring up with clients that I'm strength-based. I wanna find what is your brain already figured out that is working for you. Not everything you do is maladaptive. There are a lot of things that you're already doing that work. Like, a big one I use is, like, we're always told use a planner, use an agenda, use a calendar, right? And that's really hard for us to do. So, what my brain hacked is like, I have three different ones that I use, and I rotate it based on whatever my brain wants. So, if this week it wants a to-do list, that's what we do. If one week I need a blank calendar because I wanna fill it out myself and another week I wanna use the one in my app, I allow myself to do that as opposed to being critical of myself that I can't just use one thing consistently. I lean into how my brain is already functioning and accept that and like support that process.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Take the judgment off. Because, again, yeah, the brain and the body are amazing at how they will always try to find a way to work for our good, and if we can honor the ways that it's already finding to try and work for our, our good and go with that, that's just working smarter, not harder, in my opinion.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm. Yes. And I think that's where in grad school we don't always hear that, that our brains are good, and we can find adaptive ways that are outside of the box to support somebody's brain, and that it's not a one-size fit all, fits. That we sometimes gotta get creative in what that looks like, and we've gotta try new things, and make those suggestions to clients, and learn all the different ways that brains do function. It's, there's such a variety and not all neurotypicals are created with the same idea eith– I mean neurodivergents. It doesn't work the same for all of us. There's such a variety there also.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Jamie Roberts: Of being able to find those nuances.
Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. And again, I think that's where we get really let down in grad school is that it's presented in these very check-markable, text-booky ways that don't reflect a huge majority of clients that will come in to see us. And unless you have friends who are open with their experience or you're doing your own work in understanding, it's gonna take you a while to get enough seasoning as a therapist before you start hearing in between the lines to be able to pick that out, which is why I think listening to people who do have lived experience of, of being neurodivergent, if hearing the things that they do and, and, um, how the questions they want asked and all that stuff, it starts to make you a better therapist.
Jamie Roberts: Absolutely. That lived experience piece is so key. It's not just what the textbook says, it's also what the people in front of you are saying. What the clients are bringing in and saying, this is my lived experience.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Well, and like you said, just knowing, you know the secondary follow-up questions to ask, and I would not know them if I, A, didn't live with people and had started asking questions about it. And I didn't listen to other people whose brain worked differently than mine, I wouldn't know those questions now. But because I have, it's made me be able to have the ability to tune into those things and catch stuff, otherwise, I would've missed. I look back, and early in my career, I am positive I can think of this, some very specific clients where I'm like, ah, shit, I really missed that. Like, I just did. You know, I mean, gotta own it. We're not perfect.
Jamie Roberts: Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer Agee: That is what it is.
Jamie Roberts: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I mean, it wasn't until, like, I was actually doing assessments, diagnosing with this other practitioner, not even realizing it was me. I was just like, yeah, I just understand these clients really well. I've gotten good training. No, Jamie, like, you too. This is why you, you figured these things out. And so, I think about the clients that, like, I really related to before I knew about me being, like, neurodivergent was like, oh, I missed that in them because I missed it in me.
Jennifer Agee: Ah, yeah. So, when, when you have clients who are more newly diagnosed, what are some of the go-to, um, recommendations that you currently have for either them or their family members to help better understand them and understand their brain 'cause people love a good book or a podcast or something. So, what, what are kind of, what's the top of your list right now?
Jamie Roberts: So, I, I'll ask them if they're more video minded, if they wanna read something short and small, or if they like longer reads. So, um, I'll recommend audiobooks 'cause a lot of times we've had a lot of trouble sitting down and like reading an actual physical book. So, with audiobooks, um, I really like "Driven to Distraction." Um, and for a, if you're later in life diagnosed, I enjoyed, um, "The ADHD Effect on Marriage." That was really helpful, um, when I was in a, a neurotypical and an ADHD relationship of helping, kind of, get through some of those conflicts. There are other books that are not in my brain. I'll recommend my book, but that's not ADHD-specific, uh, or neurodivergent-specific. And then I have a couple TikTok users that I will recommend following, just to get some tips there or to normalize it and to, kind of, curate your own, like, "for you page" or your Instagram feed or following people on Facebook that are gonna talk about it and normalize it and give you some of those tips and tricks. Um, I also, I like the articles on attitudemagazine.com. Um, they have– they're short, they're sweet, they're to the point. And a lot of times, especially when it's new, I'll tell people, hey, go to this website. Just type in female ADHD, or anxiety and ADHD, or whatever combination they're kind of showing up with, whatever they've been diagnosed with before, and say, "just read about it, and if it fits for you, cool, we'll keep talking about it, and if it doesn't fit for you, okay, we'll go a different direction," as, kind of, a way to, kind of, nuance that.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. The book, honestly, the book I have found, "Driven to Distraction" was really good, uh, understanding the client's perspective. But the book that has been the most helpful for me, as the spouse of someone whose brain works differently than my own, was "Is it You, Me, or Adult ADHD?"
Jamie Roberts: Ooh, okay.
Jennifer Agee: That because it's written by, um, a wife. Her husband's a professor. He has ADHD, and she was trying to figure out how this really brilliant man was doing these things, like missing exits and do– you know all these, all these random things, and the way he was with money, even though he's, he's literally brilliant, you know, all this stuff.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: So, it, kind of, went through a lot of different, um, topic areas that was helpful in how arguments are helpful because it then stimulates the brain, so that's why people often get a lot of shit done after there's an argument, because their brain is like, "okay, we've got a good dopamine drip going, let's go ahead and get some stuff done," you know?
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: But then the, the wife or the partner might feel like they have to get into angry monster mode in order to get them there. And so, I thought that book, for me, was really helpful.
Jamie Roberts: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good one. I've heard of that one. I have not gotten through it yet.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so thank you so much for being on today. This was, I think, a helpful podcast, and I'm really hoping that people that listen to this use this as a springboard of curiosity to go get more information, get themselves a little better educated, educated so that whether it's you, a client, or just yourself as a therapist, you are getting, you're getting to understand neurodivergence in a, in a better way so that you can be a better clinician in the room and a better partner and loved one to those around you. So, how can people connect with you, Jamie?
Jamie Roberts: Absolutely. Um, you can find me. Our website is equilibriumcs.com. That's my group practice in California where we support neurodivergent teens and young adults. Um, you can find me on Instagram or TikTok at neurodivergent therapist, and, um, my book is available at Amazon, Target, and Barnes and Noble. And hopefully later in 2023, my, um, my training course on working with neurodivergent clients will be available. So, um, you have, um, you have a link for my newsletter, and if anyone who signs up from the newsletter, you'll get a notice when that course is available, but also if you sign up now, I'll provide you with five of the exercises out of my book as a free gift. So, thank you for joining us.
Jennifer Agee: Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you. Um, well, again, thank you so much for being on today. I've really enjoyed our conversation. If you'd like to connect more with me or any of the retreats or trainings that I'm doing, counselingcommunity.com. Really has links to everything. You can find me on the socials as well. But I hope you have a wonderful day and get out there and live your best dang life.