Season 2 Episode 1: What You Wish You Learned About Clinical Supervision featuring Victoria Rodriguez, LPC, CCTP, NCC

Victoria Rodriguez, LPC, CCTP, NCC and I discuss what you need to know about choosing a clinical supervisor. We share what questions to ask and how to screen for the right fit. 

Victoria (she/her/hers) is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice in Louisiana who specializes in health anxiety and medical trauma. As a PhD student at the University of New Orleans and adjunct instructor at Nicholls State University, she researches and presents on community mental health and creative interventions for trauma treatment.

OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:

• Victoria’s website
• Counseling Community TikTok
• Jennifer Agee coaching page
• Counseling Community Facebook community
• Counseling Community Instagram
• Alaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023

Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023

Transcript

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Jennifer Agee: Hello, hello, and welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I am your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. And with me today is Victoria Rodriguez. Victoria is an LPC in private practice. She's actually down in the New Orleans area and she's also a PhD student at the University of New Orleans and serves as an adjunct instructor at Nicholas State University. Victoria and I are gonna be talking about something really important today, which is clinical supervision. There's a lot that, um, is not discussed when you're in grad school about clinical supervision. So, Victoria, thank you for being on today. Welcome. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Hi. Thank you so much for having me, Jennifer. I'm so excited to talk about all things clinical supervision today, and share our experiences in supervision, and hopefully what your listeners, you know, can look for when they're searching for their own type of supervisor.

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, so let's trade stories. What is it that you wish you learned in grad school about supervision? And then I'll tell you mine. 

Victoria Rodriguez: So, when I think about what I wish I would've known about in grad school, and it's gonna sound really simple, is just finding a supervisor who's a good fit. Because when we are students, oftentimes, our supervisors are assigned to us, or if we're working at agencies, we don't really get a lot of choice in the matter. So, I think if I could go back, I would tell myself to not hesitate to really interview people and find a really, really good fit for a supervisor. 

Jennifer Agee: Actually, mine is very similar in that I didn't realize, um, how much choice you actually had. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. 

Jennifer Agee: In my head, you know, it was who I had in grad school. I had a professor who was also doing supervision, so I just went with that 'cause that's who I knew. I didn't know how to look for someone else. Um, and so I just went with what was right in front of me. And although it was good supervision, it wasn't necessarily fully what I needed. If I could go back in time, I would tell myself, um, I, first of all, I'd tell myself how to find a clinical supervisor beyond what's already in your sphere of influence that you know, and what questions to interview for. So, it sounds like we both, kind of, had similar ideas of things that we wish somebody had told us a little bit about. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Yeah, absolutely. So, I can say my experience was pretty similar to the research in that some of the supervisors I had, especially—and, and similar, I went with a professor that I had had, um, in grad school—an amazing experience. I mean, just the, the best, most personalized supervision you could get. Other supervision, not so much in other positions or other jobs. But we know that from the research in that supervision can either look like a feast or a famine. It's either, um, excellent clinical work, or it can even, um, be harmful in some instances. So, I think my experience really matches up with what we see in the research.

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Uh, feast or famine. The other thing I didn't know was that, because most states allow a combination of individual and group supervision, I didn't realize that you could have more than one supervisor. So, my supervisor only did individuals, so I did all of my supervision as individual. And now running group supervision, I really see the benefit of the information that's shared between the participants, and I think that could have really been beneficial if I had known that both things, that I could have more than one supervisor to meet both of those needs. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I'm, I'm not a licensed clinical supervisor yet, but I do supervise for my Ph.D. program, and I have to say group is one of the most energizing, exciting parts about supervision, because not only are you getting kind of that one-on-one supervision, but it's really a dual process, where not only are we learning individually about what we need, but it's so rewarding to see students learn from each other and, um, and yeah, correct each other. You know, get to the point where they're recognizing the type of supervision that they might want to provide in the future. So, I think group supervision just can't be overlooked as one of the more valuable parts, or at least one of my favorite parts if I'm gonna be biased about that.

Jennifer Agee: I agree completely. I love the groups, and honestly, um, I have not had one of my supervisees fail the NCMHCE exam, and I think that it is because of group supervision because you might see a very specific type of client, but within that group, you're gonna have other people that see such a wide variety, you're gonna be hearing about differential diagnosing, different testing that can be done—things that you might not be doing in your daily life—and it keeps your general skillset also polished up, I think. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. Not only that, but just in the settings that all of our students are working in. So, some of our students might be working in addiction, some of them might be doing community mental health, and then some of our students, um, might be doing home-based work, or might be working in hospitals, or might be working, um, in, in non-profits. So, just all sorts of settings are represented in that group as well. So, I think not only are students learning, okay, this is what it looks like to work with this population, but this is what I could do in the future as well. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, absolutely. The other thing, the practical side of this is that it's cheaper. So, right outta grad school is not when we're rolling in the dough, you know, that's, that's usually, we're still, kind of, scraping the pennies together, and paying off school after we get out, and trying to build a caseload. And, and supplementing both individual and group can help keep your cost down because group is typically less expensive, um, than individual supervision. So, that's another thing to look out for when you're thinking about clinical supervision is, does my supervisor offer both individual and group? And if not, are they okay if I see them for individual and someone else for group?

Victoria Rodriguez: Absolutely. I'm not sure if this is something you were going to get into later, but this almost reminds me of the question I get from students all the time is, should I go to an agency for that free supervision? You know, where, where they're paying, you know, for me to see a supervisor in-house, or should I seek a supervisor outside of the agency? You know, where they might get to have that choice of, do I go to group, do I go to individual this week? You know, what am I needing this week? Or what can help fill that need for clinical supervision? So, I'm wondering is that something that comes up with your supervises? Or I'm assuming they all choose you, like, as their outside individual supervisor.

Jennifer Agee: Yes. So, they, they do all choose me as their outside individual supervisor 'cause I'm in private practice. I don't have an agency, but a lot, a lot of my group supervises—actually, I don't see for individual—they'll get their individual at their agency or the place that they work. And then they're specifically hiring me as a group supervisor because they know my reputation from being an entrepreneur and business owner, and they want to eventually go into private practice, and they know under my supervision, they'll also learn how to run a company because that's a part of what I integrate. So, knowing the personality and the reputation of the therapist, uh, for supervision is important. Other supervisors refer to me all the time when they have people who are looking for specific private practice supervision as well. So, we might supplement and I will do, um, their group or individual, and the other person will do the other. But that's because they have an idea of what they want in mind. So, one of the things I would add on to that is if you think one way when you start, right, out of school that I'm just gonna do agency work, and that's what feels good. And then you realize you kind of have a tickle in your brain to do private practice, or I kind of wanna do private practice and work in a group, and then halfway through you realize, I think I really wanna be in private practice on my own. Like, it's okay to change things up. We're not locked into any one thing forever. All states have a form where you can submit an addition or a change of clinical supervisor, so you are not stuck if it's not the right fit or it's no longer meeting your needs right now based on where you're wanting to take your career.

Victoria Rodriguez: Yeah, I think about even my own clinical supervision experience, like the one I'm doing for hours, not necessarily, um, for the agency. And what I loved about that experience is I looked at the, the supervisor of, like, I want that career. Or like, this is what I want for my future. I wanna teach, and I wanna supervise, and I wanna be in private practice. And she had already accomplished many of those things. So, the ability not only to engage in supervision with somebody who really understood therapy but somebody who really understood the inner workings of academia of private practice, which we know are not easy systems to, to navigate, um, or are made easier, you know, with assistance. So, I think that was so valuable, too, of me just asking, who do I look up to? Who do I wanna grow up to be like, and where can I find them for supervision? 

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. Yeah. Who is doing something that you would like to do yourself? Because they're already an, an expert in that area. And, usually, because we're an expert in our area at that point in time that we're doing clinical supervision, we don't feel threatened by other people wanting to do the same thing. We're excited to share the knowledge that we've gained over the years. Um, I would also say find a supervisor who still likes this field and is still enthusiastic about being a therapist. Because I'll say, I've come across several people, um, who really aren't still enthusiastic about the field, but this is just a way to supplement income. So, personality matters a lot—the energy of the person. You're going to be spending, usually, in most states, two years with this person, you know? You wanna make sure that you like their per- their general personality. So, do an interview to make sure that fit, the fit is there, that you're, kind of, on each other's wavelength in the way you like to communicate and like to be challenged. But find someone who still is enthusiastic about the field, who's doing things that you find interesting or curious, things you might wanna emulate, 'cause those are probably gonna be great clinical supervisors for you. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Yeah. I remember when I was looking, well, I say I was looking around for a super-, I had this idea of like, this is my dream supervisor, but I'm not sure if she's gonna have any space by the time that I get to her. So, I remember I came up with a list—and it's very easy to like search online of like questions to ask a clinical supervisor to find a good fit—and for me, it was really important, like you said, to find somebody who had that passion. So, I would ask them, what populations do you love working with? What subject could you talk about for hours without any preparation? Um, what do you hope to do next? So, what, what's kind of the, the next plan for your career? So, I think that is so important, like you said, to find somebody who isn't turning to clinical supervision because they are burned out on direct client care, um, or at least aren't modeling what it looks like to recover from that burnout.

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. Other questions you might wanna ask are, how do you structure your supervision? Because that is wildly different from, from supervisor to supervisor. So, some are very unstructured. Some are expecting you to fill out forms before every time that you meet. Some want you to submit a log once a month. Like, what style is gonna fit your style? So, for example, I'm a verb-, I'm, I am a verbal processor. If you said that we were just gonna go through a form every time we met, I would hate that. And I would also not probably get out the questions that I really wanted to know the answers to, because I would be very compliant in filling out your form and going along with your format of what it was that your expectations were for supervision, which is fine if that's the structure that you thrive within, but I know myself, and that would not be one that, that would really make me thrive.

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. In the group that I run for community mental health practitioners, I ask them, um, what do you wish you would've known about supervision in grad school? Or, you know, what are, what are your pet peeves about supervision? And someone had said, I want supervision to be more than, um, staffing cases, or I didn't know that supervision was more than just staffing cases. And so, I think that speaks to what you were speaking to of, you know, clinical supervision is also the development of you as a counselor. This is where you're really learning about what your values are as a counselor, how you practice. So, I love how you bring that up of finding somebody you know, who is structured or unstructured and finding out if that's what you need or how you want to be as a, as a clinician as well. You know, beyond staffing cases, thinking about your own clinical identity and your own development. 

Jennifer Agee: Your, your supervisor is going to have a style that they lean to. Most of us as therapists do, right? We, we kind of, over the years, I would say most of us become more eclectic, you know? Our, our tool belt is pretty well padded, so we can pull out what is needed for any specific client at any given point in time, but we're all gonna have kind of certain bents of how we go. And you also wanna make sure that that, that whoever you're gonna work with is congruent with what your curiosities and interests are in terms of theoretical orientation so that the feedback you get is really good. Again, I'll be really honest, I have only had one supervisee that was absolutely not the right fit.

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Agee: Because I do good screening beforehand to make sure we're a good fit. And when I did his interview, he was psychoanalytic. And I said to him, I am not psychoanalytic. Um, I do not think I'm gonna be a good fit. If you are wanting to diversify the way that you look at things, then sure I could be a good fit, but I do not see things clearly only through that lens. And he was like, no, I think I really need to challenge myself and, you know, let's give it a go. And I was like, okay. But I had this hesitation. I'm like, eh, I'm not quite sure that this is gonna be good. And we started working, and he was the only person I've ever butt heads with, ever, uh, in supervision, and our orientations and the way we saw the world was so fundamentally different that it was, it just wasn't a good fit. You know, he could not understand how people could get relief in less than years and years and years of therapy. But I would say, yeah, lots of people can get relief in shorter periods of time by doing different things. And but, but we just came from two totally different places. He is a great therapist at what he does. The feedback I've heard within the community is very positive about him. I know I'm a great therapist and clinical supervisor, but us together, not a good combination. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. 100%. I mean, I'm a theory nerd, so I knew that I absolutely had to have somebody who saw the world or saw client issues at least, like somewhat similar, you know, to how I saw clients. Not that maybe going—so I'm definitely not psychoanalysis—but not going to a psychoanalytic supervisor wouldn't have been helpful, like you said, to challenge me. But at that point in my development, um, I needed to be challenged in different ways. Now, as a doctoral supervisor myself, I think it's really important that I'm aware of all these different approaches and how students are– Uh, it's so confusing because not only am I the doctoral supervisor but these students all also get supervision at their sites. They also get group supervision with the professors, so they're getting lots of different information about, um, what it means to be a counselor, what it means to use a certain theory, what it means to use a certain intervention that might be really different from how I practice. So, that's been really interesting, even on the other side of it, as a supervisor to recognize, yeah, we don't all work the same. And then how do I help students navigate when they're getting differing feedback about how to approach situations? 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. And that kind of leads into this idea of, um, how, how does your supervisor see themselves as a therapist in terms of self as therapist, right? Do I see myself as being on a learning journey and, um, changeable, movable, adaptable? Am I really rigid in how I look, look at things and see the world? Um, what kind of humility does the supervisor have to be able to admit sometimes they don't know things or they're wrong? I'll tell you, I learned stuff from my supervisees all the time. I graduated in 1999. I do all the CEU stuff. I do all the things to, like, stay as current and relevant as possible, but still, they are in an environment where learning is the number one priority, and so, or it just came out of that environment. And often, they'll bring up stuff, and I'm, like, holy crap, that's brilliant. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna Google that. Send me something on it. Because you do have to have that, like, openness that this is a relationship, which means al-, although there is someone who has more authority in terms of being along, further along in their practice, we're still all learning. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Absolutely. I love what you brought up about humility too. Like, that ability for me to be flexible as a learner as they're learning too. So, I think there's really a chance—I'm gonna use a big, uh, word that we use a lot in our program, but—for a dual process where they're learning and I'm learning right alongside them about supervising and clinical practice, um, which is challenging at times, but I think really, really special to be able to model for them what it looks like to be a lifelong learner and what it looks like to approach these, these issues, these cases that they bring with a lot of humility and a lot of, um, earnestness and willingness to learn.

Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Where do you, um, when you're talking to the students, where do you tell them to find a clinical supervisor post grad school? 

Victoria Rodriguez: Hmm. So, I always suggest going through, um, our state's directory. So, we have a directory of, like, clinical supervisors, but mostly I'll ask them, ask the people that you, um, that you appreciate, those who graduated before you, who are they going to? Um, ask your professors who they would suggest. Ask your site supervisors who they would suggest. I find that while going through a directory is, like, really helpful and you can maybe find a very specific fit for something that you're looking for, I find it can actually be more specific if you ask people, who are you going to? How do you like it? You know, really getting the inside scoop of what this clinical supervisor is like, and then reaching out to that supervisor and doing an interview. So, I can't emphasize that enough. I really, part of me felt, well, I'm in, in terms of like a hierarchy, well, I'm lower. Like, I'm the student, I'm here to learn, so I cannot choose, you know, who my supervisor is. But I really encourage my students, you know, to reach out, call, have a conversation, and see if it feels like a good fit. Um, but definitely first and foremost, talking to people who have graduated, seeing who they're going to, and seeing if it would be a good fit. A lot, we live in, you know, New Orleans is a small city, so we, we all know each other, we all know the clinical supervisors around here. So, I think, um, I think it's easy to find a fit in that sense. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Amy Fortney has the clinical supervisory directory. That's a national directory. That's really cool. But I'll tell you, the vast majority of my supervisees come from other supervisees. The new ones come from people that, um, I'm currently working with who then someone in grad school reached out to them and said, who are you working with, and what, you know, that kind of a thing. They tend to hand-pick each other for me, it seems like. And same with, um, other therapists in the community. 'Cause I am, I am pretty specific on what I niche on. So, um, they'll, they'll send that to me, but. But you are hiring the clinical supervisor. Do not forget your power in this relationship, right? Ultimately, you are the consumer, so to speak, the customer. You get to choose what is the right fit for you, and you don't have to take just whatever, because you are the one hiring a specialist. So, you wouldn't just pick any old accountant. You'd want an accountant that, you know, specialized in small business practice ownership that understood how to do QuickBooks for small businesses, LLC versus S-Corp. You'd want them to have a specific skillset. Same thing with your clinical supervisor. You're hiring a specialist, so to speak, and interview them and make sure that you are getting the specialist that meets what your vision is for what you want your career to be.

Victoria Rodriguez: Hmm. It's a lot like therapy in that sense, isn't it? You know where you are technically interviewing that therapist if you wanna work together, but ultimately, it comes down to fit for both of you. So, as I'm preparing, you know, to get that LPCS to have the supervisor at the end, I've had to think a lot of, you know, what type of supervisees do I wanna work with too, just in the same way that I ask myself, what clients I wanna work with in, in private practice? Because I think for, for both the supervisee—and you can speak to this probably more as a supervisor—but I think for both of us, it's about finding that right fit. Because there's a lot of liability that comes with there for both. You know, I am, I as the supervisee, I'm trusting you with my clinical development, and I as the supervisor are trusting that you're gonna come to me if there's an ethical or a safety issue that we need to go over together. So, I think there's a lot of trust going both ways in that relationship. 

Jennifer Agee: You're bringing up a great point, which is I, a part of my screening is I make an assessment based on our conversation that what the likelihood is you're gonna do something that puts my license at risk, you know? Because ultimately... 

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. You have to. 

Jennifer Agee: When I've made the choice to bring on clinical supervisees, I'm making the choice to sign papers with the state that say I am taking on and absorbing some of the risk of your clinical practice. And that is not something that I take lightly. I worked very hard to get my license, and so I don't want anybody doing anything, you know, that could put that in jeopardy. So, screening for a bit, you know, fit on both sides, obviously, very important. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Yeah. And I think that speaks to also our job as supervisors, as gatekeepers. You know, our job ultimately is to protect the clients. And again, thinking about it from the other side, what I wish my supervisees, or what I hope they really understand, is my job as a supervisor is to protect your clients and also to protect you. Protect you, you know, in, in those decisions that you have to make. You know, being a therapist comes with a lot of liability. It comes with a lot of responsibility. And if you feel like you've made a mistake, you know, especially since I don't get to choose like which supervisees I work with, um, in an academic setting, I don't want that to stop you from coming to me to tell me if something happened because I need there to be enough trust between both of us that you would come if there's a safety or an ethical issue. Because like you said, I've worked too hard for this license. I've worked too hard to be in this program. And I wanna make sure that everybody is as protected as possible in that relationship. 

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. And that brings up another good question to ask when you are screening for a supervisor, which is how available are you and how do you like to be contacted? So, I have this conversation about my license, and I'm like, if there's any question, if there's a blip on the radar screen of questions of whether or not you should be doing this, you should be talking to me, whatever, just text me. I'm available. It doesn't matter what country I'm in, or where I'm at, or who I'm ta-. I could be with the Queen of England, and if you text me and I see it, I'm gonna step out and take it because I know that if you're reaching out, you're needing help. And so, I do try to make myself very, very available. Um, and if you have a supervisor that says, I only work during business hours and da da, and that's not when you're gonna be seeing clients, so they're not available during the same times you're gonna be seeing clients, that also might not be a good fit. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And it, it, it's coming down to fit. It's not everybody has different boundaries that they're looking for at this time. But especially when I was doing in-home community work, you know, where I was going into people's homes, I needed a supervisor that was gonna be there, um, for emergencies. So, I even remember my agency supervisor, the car had stalled—it was a long story—the car had stalled. I was in a rural area in, you know, who knows where, Louisiana. And she stayed up until, you know, [INAUDIBLE]. She made sure that, you know, I got home safely, that everything was taken care of. And I realize a lot of people would think, well, yeah, that's just, you know, basic, um, basic courtesy. Um, but I think sometimes that is rare to find around supervisors, you know, who really work around your, your needs at that time. And I think it, it's a little, the boundaries are, are a little bit different. Again, because my license is on the line as well, I wanna make sure that we are as protected as possible. So, I always make sure to help supervisees, you know, here's my phone number, use it for emergencies only, let's have a conversation about what an emergency looks like, or even if you're questioning that. Um... 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. 

Victoria Rodriguez: So that's kind of the expectations that I have. 

Jennifer Agee: One thing I wish supervisees, uh, that are listening would really understand is that most of us as clinical supervisors, we want you to reach out to us if there's a question or there's doubt, you need to run something past someone, you need to make sure you handled something right, you're feeling shaky after a session. That's a part of why we became clinical supervisors is because we feel a calling to help the next generation of therapists really, uh, welcome them into this in a soft and, and helpful way. So, we want you to reach out to us. We, we want to be able to be there to help you navigate these next phases of what your career is going to look like. So, please don't hesitate or feel like you're gonna be a burden or a problem or whatever. No, no, no, no, no. We would much rather you call us than find out later that there was an issue and you then had all of this stress and anxiety afterwards because you didn't call us and have a conversation.

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. Definitely when I think of not only things that I've done in clinical supervision but also my supervisees is when it got the worst is when I waited, instead of just contacting my supervisee or supervisor right away and having a conversation about that. I would say, hmm, I'm not too sure about, like, this clinical approach or how I'm going to approach this. And, so easily, she would oftentimes just have the answer. Um, and I know supervisors like to practice differently, where some will make you, you know, make you come to that from your own questioning, from your own logic, but in those moments where I really needed an answer, she was able to provide, you know, like you said, that, that soft landing, which is where I was at developmentally. And so, just like you said, I, I love to be able to provide that for students. I'd love to be able to provide that for supervisees in the future because it's, um, it's a calling. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. It, it is for me for sure. Knowing when to be direct and when to leave space to get there themselves is an important role of a supervisor for sure. One of the things that I've learned over the years is, um, two things that I think have been really helpful. One is I will often role model exactly how I would say something to a client because we don't get the language when we're in grad school. We're told the theory of things. We're told what the checklist of diagnosis is. But we're not actually practicing how do you explain when you give someone a diagnosis, what that means, what that looks like, how is that coming out in their life, um, how the role of this relationship is unfolding in the ways that it's being impactful. We don't necessarily practice those things. And so, having that role modeled of just verbally giving them words to have in their ears that they can use, I found, has been extremely helpful for my supervisees. The other thing I, I learned to do over the years is I do not answer first in the group. When somebody brings something forward, I'll just say, all right, group, how would you handle this if it were you? And then I sit back, and I shut my cake hole. Because I want, I wanna hear the diversity of ideas. I don't want them to become reliant upon me to have the answers for everything. I'll always come in, usually at the end and say I agree with everything that's said. I probably wouldn't change a thing. Or, I agree with these things, and here's another thing that I would add to that. But I try and let the group do the work, as well, and not just constantly be the expert in the room. 

Victoria Rodriguez: Yeah, absolutely. Man, those are some uncomfortable five minutes after you ask a question or you staff a case and you're like, okay, group, let's think about this. So, I have gotten really comfortable with just okay taking my time and letting, and letting them come to the conclusion because that is so powerful. And I think what's most surprising for my supervisees or for my students is realizing, "oh, we had the,"—I'm putting up quotes—"the right answer all along," you know? Or I love the example that you've given. Your probably like, Victoria, stop talking about your research, like we're tired of it. 

Jennifer Agee: Nah, I love it. 

Victoria Rodriguez: But the theory application gap is so real, where what we learn in grad school about theory and then when we actually get in the field and we apply it, I don't know what that sounds like just from theory to talk about a diagnosis. And supervision, we know from the research, is literally a tool that helps you connect theory or what you learned in grad school to the actual application of counseling. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. It serves an important role. We don't like it when we have to do it because it's expensive at a time that we usually don't have the money to be doing it. You know, it's like, it, it, but it is an investment and it does help. Good, good clinical supervision can help you grow in your confidence as a clinician and, and help you feel empowered in the room, I think, of knowing that it's not just you. Someone's also there that has your back, um, while you're learning and growing, especially in those early years.

Victoria Rodriguez: Yeah. You know, and you bring up a good point of it's almost like an inverted triangle, right? Where when we are the poorest and working for these agencies, that's when we're expected to, you know, spend a lot of money on supervision, as valuable as it is. Um, so something I, I encourage your listeners as well is, um, it's okay to seek out supervision after you're licensed. It's okay to seek out specific supervision, specific coaching, um, even a consultation group that you set up locally. It's a great way to market and a great way to fill that need for supervision, as you said, because we never stop learning. 

Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I have several supervisees who come to a group once a month just because they want business help or need, you know, that they need feedback, you know? Um, it's always good to, to have outside input when you're feeling stuck with a client. Because look, things come up in the room and you think, where in the bloody H was this ever mentioned in grad school, right? I've had clients come to me before—actually this has happened several times, so I don't know if it's just me or other people, but—several l times I've had clients come to me that were from Evangelical, um, Christian backgrounds, and nobody ever talked to them about sex. They got married, and they don't know how to have sex, and they don't know how to have– I'm like, wooey, where was, where was that 101 conversation that we were supposed to be talking about? I'm like, all right, I guess, here we go. Or like, is it normal if I wet the bed if I sleep really heavy? Like, is that covered in grad school? No. It's like all this random crap comes up when you're a therapist because we are in the messiness of people's lives. In the beautiful messiness of people's lives, and they bring all this stuff in because they trust us. We're a relationship that they trust. But a lot of it is stuff that, that was never covered in a class. How to handle it and manage it, it was never covered. So, having some of that outside feedback, if you wanna run past, "did I actually handle this okay," it sometimes helps give us more, uh, confidence to, to believe in ourselves. I also always try to point out to my supervisees when their instincts were right on the money. 'Cause most of the time their instincts are right on the money. I mean, we got into this field for a reason. Um, a lot of us are very naturally good at certain things. And so, you know, I try to be very complimentary when I do know that they're doing well 'cause I know that being the person that's receiving supervision can sometimes feel like a very vulnerable or insecure spot to be in.

Victoria Rodriguez: Mm-hmm. I think especially in supervision when you're still a student and your grade or, you know, obtaining that licensure relies on that person, um, liking your skills enough to pass you forward. So, something I'm always really sure to tell my supervisees, whether they have done—again, I'm using air quotes—the "incorrect" or the "more correct" decision, I always make sure to tell them, wow, I am so glad that you told me. I am so glad that we're having this conversation today about this case. Because even then, it helps them to recognize that, yes, this is an appropriate case for supervision, or this is, you know, this was, this was serious. You're not imagining, you know, how much you needed to bring this case to supervision. So, that's what I always like to start with long before we start staffing a case or talking about their own development. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Well, I think you can tell from our conversation, Victoria and I believe strongly in clinical supervision. It's something that we're both passionate about. And I hope if you are new in your career and you're, or you're in grad school right now, and you are starting the process of looking for a clinical supervisor, that this conversation has been helpful in, in empowering you to know good questions to ask and also a reminder that you are hiring a specialist. It's okay to ask good questions. It's okay to feel comfortable in finding the right fit. Um, most of us get into this because we genuinely do feel a strong passion or calling to help the next generation of therapists. For me, it's to become not only excellent clinicians but solid practice owners. So, um, I hope that you find someone that's just amazing and a wonderful fit, and maybe it's not just one person. Any last parting advice that you would give? 

Victoria Rodriguez: I would say the exact same thing. Just remember your power in that situation and your power to ask for help. I think we live in a society that's so individualistic, that's so you can figure this out on your own, and yet what supervision is all about is we're saying the opposite is that you are worthy of asking for help and receiving that help.

Jennifer Agee: Ooh, that's beautiful. All right. How can people connect with you? 

Victoria Rodriguez: So, if you are interested in learning more about my research, um, on clinical supervision, specifically in agency work and community mental health 'cause we need all the help we can get, you can find me at My Car is My Office on all social media and at mycarismyoffice.com. You can also email me at Victoria@revivepractice.com. That's Victoria@revivepractice.com if you have any questions.

Jennifer Agee: Wonderful. And if you'd like to connect more with me or come on a future retreat, actually I have spot, I have a couple spots left in Portugal for this October if you're interested, um, counselingcommunity.com. I'd be glad to see you. Get out there everyone and live your best dang life.