Barbara Beck, LMFT discusses what clinicians need to understand about narcissistic abuse. She describes what narcissistic abuse is, the difficulty for clients to accept that it is abuse, the complications of deciding rather to stay or leave the relationship, the aftermath of leaving and the healing journey and how to support your clients through it all.
Barbara is a therapist in the Kansas City area. In addition to individual therapy, she offers a weekly support group for survivors and has an upcoming healing retreat.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Barbara Beck, LMFT discusses what clinicians need to understand about narcissistic abuse. She describes what narcissistic abuse is, the difficulty for clients to accept that it is abuse, the complications of deciding rather to stay or leave the relationship, the aftermath of leaving and the healing journey and how to support your clients through it all.
Barbara is a therapist in the Kansas City area. In addition to individual therapy, she offers a weekly support group for survivors and has an upcoming healing retreat.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Jennifer Agee: Hello. Hello. And welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I'm your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. And with me today is Barb Beck. Barb is a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in narcissistic abuse. So, welcome to the show, Barb.
Barb Beck: Thank you, Jennifer, for having me. I'm really grateful to be.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I'm grateful you're here 'cause this is a huge topic to discuss. I'd like to know, to kick this episode off, what do you wish more therapists understood about narcissistic abuse?
Barb Beck: Well, I think we all know that right now it's kind of a buzzword, and it gets thrown around a lot. And so, I know that I have a lot of clients calling me, and I'm assuming they do, too, saying, oh, so-and-so's a narcissist. Well, they may be, or they may not be. And so, I really try to go with, um, do they have narcissistic traits? Explain to me what your situation is. You know, what are the behaviors?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Barb Beck: Um, I think what I run into a lot of times is I have clients tell me that they went to a therapist, and they had checked the box on Psychology Today that they treat narcissistic abuse. And then they go there and they find out shortly that they're doing a lot of the explaining to the therapist, and they find that really confusing and frustrating. And so, I think I wish what more therapists knew was that it goes way beyond toxic relationships. It's so pervasive and for many—um, it's not just women, it's men too, but mainly women, so I'm gonna use the female, uh, examples—that it's all encompassing. Um, I've had clients who couldn't go to the grocery store or be gone longer than 30 minutes without doing a video chat with their partner to make sure they knew where they were, or only getting in line at the grocery store if it was a female checker. And so, I don't think that a lot of people understand how naive and how helpless and really how, um, powerless a lot of these people are that deal with narcissistic abuse. And what they learn the hard way, and it's really hard to accept, is that when you boil it down, they feel like they're not a person. They feel like they're more of an object or a possession. And I think, a lot of times, they lose who they are, just like with codependency, in helping the other person, being everything to the other person, and then spending a lot of time defending themselves. So, you know, it's on a spectrum. And so, it goes from mild to moderate, you know, to malignant and everywhere back and forth. And, you know, some people that have narcissistic tendencies are all over the place, and you just never know what you're going to get from hour to hour. And so, a few of the things that I think are so characteristic is the rage part of it. It's not just anger; it's absolute rage. And so, there's a cycle that goes with the behaviors. Of course, we all have heard about love bombing, so the first part is, you know, they're just such a charming, engaging person. Everybody loves them usually on the outside, but intermittent relationships are really tough. And so, after the newness wears off, they begin to show themselves and their frustration. And then eventually rage. And it gets to the point where the longer you're in relationship with that person, the longer the rage phase lasts and the shorter period of time the love bombing happens. But a lot of people stay hoping to get back to that, and that's not typically how it goes. So, I use this analogy and I really love it. I tell people they're like an M&M, this hard outer shell where anything that comes at them that's anything humiliating, shame-based, or whatever just bounces right back off. But inside is this ooey gooey mess and this fragile person that really is afraid of abandonment and rejection. But they'll never admit that or take responsibility. All they'll do is label and blame and shame. So, it's just a very, very difficult person to live with. And I think people hear such invalidating things all the time. I have a gentleman that comes to see me, and people say to him all the time, well, toughen up. You know, can't you kind of, you know, get her in line or say something to her to help her not be so angry and then, um, hostile towards you? And, of course, this person's tried everything. Everything and more, and I think the common theme is also, well, if I just love them more, things will work out. If I just try harder. But it's not a reciprocal relationship.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. That victim-blaming that goes into it. And it's–
Barb Beck: Absolutely.
Jennifer Agee: And I'm wondering if a part of that victim blaming is in part when you are in a narcissist world, when you're in their orbit, I think on a very subconscious level, no one wants to become the target of the narcissist. And so, there's fawning behaviors that take place around narcissists where there's excusing behaviors or blaming the victim because as long as I stay on the good side of the person who can get really angry or really nasty, then I'm not going to be the target of that anger or abuse.
Barb Beck: I think that's very common. And I think I wanna point out too, it's not just partners that people are in relationship with. It could be a parent. It could be a sibling. It could be a coworker. It still is damaging. And so, I have a lot of people that come in that realize later in life, oh, I think my parent was narcissistic. They had traits. I never really bonded with them. You know, they weren't able to connect. But I think that you're really right that it's easier to get along, and so I think a lot of times joining with the narcissist is the easiest way to get along. Yes, I think you're right. Yeah, I agree with that, whether they do or not. But it is, especially if you're going to be around other people, I think that a lot of that goes on because they don't want people to know what goes on behind closed doors. And then we all have coworkers like that, that it's just easier sometimes to go along with them.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. And I had always been taught that a part of the pathology of narcissism is that the person struggles to differentiate self from others. So, everyone is an extension of them, so anything that you do they then take as a personal affront or attack if it's something that they don't think makes them look in the best light or, or whatever. Is that kind of also your line of thinking?
Barb Beck: Yes. Real or perceived, I mean, absolutely. So, I think that, you know, they just take ownership of everything. And at the bottom line, we all know everything's about them. They are ultimately self-centered and, um, just really lack compassion and empathy. So, there's no point. Do they give you a break?
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Barb Beck: It just doesn't happen.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Barb Beck: And I think it's really difficult.
Jennifer Agee: Well, I, yeah, I mean the abuse part of this, there are cycles, and like you mentioned, the love bombing, the anger. There are, there are cycles to these, these relationships and these patterns because if everyone was all bad all the time, it would be super easy to be like, screw you, dude. I'm outta here. Right? But the reality is, people are not all bad and all good. They have moments where they're tender, or moments where they're kind to your children, or moments where you see these other parts of, of them come out that then make you want to minimize the negative behaviors, um, so that you can stay in the relationship.
Barb Beck: Absolutely. And minimize, but also just question. Because, at times, you're right, there's good in everybody. But, at times, they can be very apologetic. You know, they can cry, they can show empathy, and it appears to be real.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Barb Beck: But when you boil it back and reflect on it, it usually is about them. And so–
Jennifer Agee: Can you give me an example?
Barb Beck: Yeah, sure. Like, you know, somebody, um, I don't know, uh, forgets to give you a message or whatever, and they don't wanna take blame for it. And it's like, well, I know I left that for you there. I know it's there, you know? Um, I'm just sure I left it there for you. And you know, the person will try to challenge that, and they become so angry. And so, I think that's part of it. It, it just isn't a chance where you get to even have your say in anything. It's just always questioned, always doubted, and you just are on the defense so much of the time.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Barb Beck: And explaining yourself over and over, not getting anywhere.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Well, and, and I think an important piece that I wanna make sure therapists really understand, especially if you're new to this field, really the impact of that gaslighting. And, and what takes place is over time—and again, remember this is someone you're in a relationship with, intimate or non-intimate—um, that over time, if you're continually told your reality is not your reality, what you think and feel is not actually what you think and feel because you're, you're wrong, what you saw was wrong or uh, inaccurate or you, you misread it or something, you start to learn to doubt your own voice. I remember I had a client years ago who literally walked in on a partner cheating. They gaslighted the crap out of her to the point where they had convinced her that she must have made it all up in her own mind. Now you can't get to that point without having years or extended periods of time where you have been taught to doubt yourself. And so, I want patient, I want a therapist to understand that if you have a client who you come to realize is in an abusive, abusive relationship with a narcissist, that it's going to take time to unhear that other person's voice in their head first. It, this is something you need to be very patient with.
Barb Beck: Absolutely. So, the gaslighting leads people to believe that they're crazy. I've had people come in and I'll say, well, you're not crazy. They seem so relieved. They actually believe that they are, and you're right about the doubt. But also, I think that people that are narcissistic tend to become delusional. And they convince themselves that their delusions are true, and they won't back down from that. I mean, they seem to actually really believe that, which creates so much confusion. I think the confusion and the unpredictability part of it are really, really difficult. So, people are hyper-aroused all the time, walking on eggshells, not knowing what's gonna come next. And you're absolutely right. Doubting themselves, doubting their reality to the point where they don't even believe they can function sometimes. And they'll start saying phrases like, is that right? Am I right? Am I okay? And, and they just don't know.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Checking behavior, you know? Uh, needing someone else to validate their own experience.
Barb Beck: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: What usually drives someone into therapy that's in a, an abusive relationship like this?
Barb Beck: Well, fortunately, I think social media has really helped that, because I think people are recognizing, oh, okay, this isn't just a dysfunctional or toxic relationship. This goes beyond that. I can't handle it myself. And so, I think frustration really brings people in, that they're in the in, at the end of their rope. And when people come in, I often say to them, have you tried everything? And they go, yes. And then I say, have you tried even more and keep trying? They go, yes. And so, I think that's really important. Everything they know, they've tried. And they even come into the point where, I'm starting to imitate their behaviors. And I think that what I'm doing is fighting fire with fire. But now I don't even know, am I narcissistic? And so, you know, a lot of that is projection and transference too.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, that loss of sense of self, um, would be actually a really painful process to, to have to realize, um, that you are identifying with the abuser, so to speak, or that you just, you can't trust your own voice anymore.
Barb Beck: That's absolutely true. And I really believe people all the time tell me, I don't know who I am anymore. And so, you, that is a foundation where you can start from, but, um, doubting themselves, lack of confidence, low self-esteem, it all goes along with it. And these are people that have been highly successful in other areas of their life and very confident, and they don't know what happened. They come in and they're just dumbfounded. And so, often I hear, too, we tried couples counseling. Well, we know that couples counseling isn't a good idea when there's abuse going on 'cause the person's not safe. Psychological, emotional abuse are so hard to prove and even sometimes for people to believe, and we all know how damaging it is. So, um, I think that part of it is they'll say, I went to couples counseling. It was just fine when the spotlight was on me and we talked about my issues, but when it came to turning the spotlight on my partner, they became so defensive. I even had one gentleman stand up in my office and said, you're crazy. I'm out of here.
Jennifer Agee: And I've, I've had people leave my office before too. Um, and it, it is a awful feeling because you are sitting with the intensity of that emotion that just happened, which is someone else's maybe norm, but, um, you're sitting with that person, and it's a very helpless feeling, as the therapist, when you know when they leave, 'cause they're leaving with that person, that you're leaving them in the hands of someone that is really not safe for them. And I know one of the points that you wanted to make on this episode, 'cause we talked beforehand, was just the difficulty in people accepting that what they're experiencing is abuse. So, can you talk a little bit about that?
Barb Beck: I can, because I honestly think they are so used to being dismissed, minimized, you know, marginalized, that for them to realize that that person is damaging to them is really hard for them to believe. I think that they just learn to accept it, and it happens slowly over a long period of time, and they're like, well, it's always been this way. That's their norm. And so, it's really hard for them to recognize it. When you pointed out, yes, they'll agree with you, but then I think there's a whole nother level of acceptance that I can really see that was abusive, and I can accept that that's happening to me, because denial plays such a huge part. You wouldn't be able to stay with a person like that if there wasn't quite a bit of denial going on.
Jennifer Agee: Uh, I, that makes me think, I had a C-suite executive level client one time, and the amount of, that was in a narcissistic, abusive relationship, and the amount of cognitive dissonance between I am this level professionally, I am respected, I am known, I am all of these really positive attributes. How did this person allow themselves to be in this relationship or tolerate this type of abuse? That level of acceptance is incredibly difficult and painful for the system to absorb, I think.
Barb Beck: Absolutely. And even myself, as a therapist, I married someone not knowing them very long and ended up being in a narcissistic relationship. And it was very shaming and embarrassing for me because I'm a therapist. How did I get here? Well, you know, people that are narcissistic are very good at what they do. And it's not just them. I felt sorry for this person because they had a hard childhood, you know? And it's probably part of me wanted to fix them. Part of me wanted to really help because, you know, I'm in the helping field. And so, I have to be real careful of that because I think caretaking tendencies really led me to a difficult position to be in.
Jennifer Agee: And I know as a therapist, I've gotten suckered in in the beginning of my career before I knew what that felt like in the room when you were with a client who was a narcissist. And what I found is, um, you know that artificial charm at first? I mean, every, we all struggle with imposter syndrome, especially in the beginning of our career.
Barb Beck: Yes.
Jennifer Agee: So, someone's coming in and saying, I researched you. I read you're amazing. You're the only person who's gonna be able to help our family or help get my marriage on track. Like, we're all, we could all fall victim, right, to wanting to, to go with that. But what happens over time, and I don't know if this is true for you, but what I found over time is, I start to feel a certain way when I'm around certain types of, especially personality disorders, I notice what my is going on in my system. And because now I know what it is, when I start to see that artificial charm, the first thing my system does is it puts an energetic barrier up. I feel my, um, my flow of energy out to someone be protected. Some part of my subconscious is like, this might not be good for you. We need, we need to be very careful. Like, my system knows what's happening. Have you noticed that too?
Barb Beck: Absolutely. And I think they want to join with you desperately and quickly. And so, I feel like I have this red flag that just goes up right in front of me, and I see it. Um, so, I absolutely know what you're talking about. And the charm is a big factor. Um, and, and often it's just over the top.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I have definitely been, um, been told by someone I read all your books. I hadn't written a book by then. Um, I've been told, you know, Dr. so-and-so, I'm not a doctor and I know it. You know, and, and I know that you know darn good and well I'm not, 'cause you definitely looked at my profile before you came in here and read all the paperwork. But yeah, that, um, laying on the artificial charm. So, if you are a clinician who's not used to dealing with narcissists or narcissistic abuse, I want you to hear what Barb and I are talking about, not just from the, the practical standpoint but also the felt experience, the things that are said in the room so that you can start to pick up on it a little bit quicker. What are maybe some other signs to look out for?
Barb Beck: I'm really glad you asked that because I think when you're together with a couple, especially in the room, and you hear these invalidating statements by the other person or the put-downs or the passive-aggressive behavior, I just think it's wise to be really careful. Because I think that that abuse can carry over into the therapy room, and it's just even harder on the person that is the victim. Because they so desperately wanna be heard and listened to, and they're constantly interrupted, they're not really given a chance. I know for myself, early on, if I get someone in there, I'll say, okay, I need you to sit here right now. We need to let so-and-so talk. And you may have to redirect them three or four times. And so, that's usually kind of a telltale sign too. But I think, you know, it's about dominance, power, and control. And so, if you can keep that in the back of your mind, those are pretty easy to spot.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I, I, I really like what you said, the dominance, power and control. And I think this also brings up another important point, which is, especially if you're doing couples work, don't skip that set, that step of having individual sessions.
Barb Beck: Yes.
Jennifer Agee: Because you really need to understand that if you are with an abuse victim, um, physical, sexual abuse, um, or narcissistic abuse, a part of them is not going to be fully honest or transparent because their system knows darn good and well, it is not safe for them to do so in the room with their abuser present. So, they will take blame. They will say, nope, actually, the way you remember it is, right. Um, yeah, I did do that. Like, they, they'll, they'll take that because they don't want a consequence later. So, don't skip that step because the couple seems like they're just here for good communication skills, and I think they're fine. Don't skip over those steps because you get a lot of really good information in those one-on-one sessions.
Barb Beck: And I also ask a lot of questions individually about how they handle anger and how their partner handles anger, or coworker, whatever. Because that's such a telltale sign too. It's not anger; it's a rage.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Barb Beck: And it's pretty uncontrollable for that person. And there's a real distinct difference.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Um, so, when people come in and you start to become aware, ah, this is what's going on here, I would imagine as people start to get that awareness, that then they enter these thoughts of, should I stay, or should I go? And what do you feel like your role as the therapist is in those, um, in the therapy room with that client?
Barb Beck: Well, absolutely, Jennifer. I think there's good reasons sometimes for people to stay. We hear a lot in the media about leave. Leave right now. You have to go. That's not always the best course of action, and we know that can be dangerous as well. But my job is to support and validate and help and encourage this person to see what's really going on, I think is important, but also just to be there to support them. Sometimes there's real financial costs if they leave. Sometimes there's children involved, and they'd rather be there with their children and have their children on the weekends with this person, with this person alone. And so, it's complicated, and I think every situation is different, and I think it's up to the person to decide, you know? Um, I do have people come in and I think it's very interesting. I have people that I see for a while, and then they'll come in one day and they'll say, I'm done.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Barb Beck: I'm done. And I believe them every time 'cause you can see it in their eyes. They have had it, and they just can't do it any longer.
Jennifer Agee: Actually, that's been my experience too. For the, the clients that I've seen that have left, it's been this, um, switch that, one day, enough has been enough, and they've gotten empowered enough as a part of being in the sessions and maybe us working on getting them strong enough to feel like they can leave if and when they choose to leave, that they have all come in, and the ones that I've seen, at least, it's been a decision where they come in one day and you think, okay, you know, we're gonna keep doing the same thing, and then they're like, nope, I've, I decided to leave. I looked for apartments. I X, Y, and Z. Like, when, when the decision is made, it's go time.
Barb Beck: Absolutely. And so, also, I didn't mention this earlier, but I have a support group that I, um, hold weekly on Zoom for, um, it's for just women, but people who have or are experiencing narcissistic abuse. It doesn't just have to be a partner. Uh, several people that come had a parent that was narcissistic. And so, I think that's been so helpful too, because I think they've seen other people at different stages of dealing with this, and they can relate to them. And that other person maybe can say something that rings a bell, and they, and they even say, that's the exact words I didn't have for my situation, but you just said it for me.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, that desire.
Barb Beck: And so, I think that's really helpful.
Jennifer Agee: That desire for us all to feel seen, heard, and understood, and have people who have the same lived experience, um, that can walk beside us is so powerful. I'm really glad you have that group. I don't wanna jump over just yet. This idea that maybe they're not in a place to be able to leave, and maybe that isn't even the wisest choice for them to be able to make for themselves. Because I think, if I'm being really honest, in the arrogance of youth, I probably would've not seen a reason to ever stay. Right? And I'm just being honest. When you're younger, uh, I don't know things, things look, you see the world of possibilities a little differently than you do as you get older or maybe have children. And I, I can even think of like, I'm, I'm middle aged now. I'm, I'm 48—almost 49 actually. Hello—um, that at this age and stage, different factors come into play. I'm closer to retirement. Sharing half of that money. Do I have to–, you know, like, there are very real-life reasons that people choose to stay. And I think we have to check ourselves in the therapy room that we're not bringing in our own, um, ideas of what someone should do and pushing them on someone because we don't know. Only that person really can come to the conclusion of what's right for them. Like you said, maybe leaving them with the abuser every other weekend. Maybe that's the worst-case scenario 'cause at least if I'm in the home, then I can protect them. Um, financially, I never got my education. I can't support myself, and I know that they're going to be a total butthead when it comes to child support, and things like that. Respect the client's process and where they are, and don't get so frustrated because, because it's not going the way you wished it would be for the client. And trust that they, they know what they want and need at any given point in time.
Barb Beck: Jennifer, it's interesting 'cause recently I've gotten a couple of female clients that are in their sixties, and they've had 40-year relationships with this person. And they have a big, shared history, holidays together, their families are intertwined. They don't wanna give that up, and I respect that.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, let's say, um, someone does choose to leave. I wanna talk a little bit about the, what the aftermath is. And a part of this podcast is Barbara and I really wanted to take people on the journey of understanding what narcissistic abuse is, how to support a client in the room, what the aftermath, and then we'll talk about the healing, because you are walking alongside someone during a really painful journey. So, we wanna take you through these steps so that you can be a better-informed clinician too. So, talk, talk to me a little bit about the aftermath.
Barb Beck: Okay. Um, I think the aftermath for most people is way more difficult than they think it's gonna be. Um, I think I mentioned earlier, a lot of times they just don't have the skill, even sometimes to run a household by themselves or anything financial. That's very common. And so, I think that they're so afraid to ask for help. And I see that across the board too. They've been told it's not okay to ask for help, and it's not okay to show any weakness or any vulnerability. So, I think it can be very isolating, lonely, discouraging for people. And so, I think that's where clinicians can really come together. What I have noticed, just like with other things, the antidote seems to be connection. And so, I think often the first person that they begin to trust is you, the clinician.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Barb Beck: And they can build that trust with you. And they can begin to feel safe even for just a little bit. And then maybe expand that and include that, you know, with some other people. 'Cause they need other professionals to help them too.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Barb Beck: You know, often they need to go to a financial planner or CPA or lots of different professional people to try and get things figured out. You know, um, there seems to be a lot of animosity when there's divorce going on. And it seems to even take a different, much higher level when the finances begin to get discussed. Because even if the spouse that's narcissistic files for divorce, later on, they'll turn that around and say, how dare you divorce me?
Jennifer Agee: Hmm.
Barb Beck: Even when they filed, so, you know, it's really confusing. And I think that, you know, they need help. They need connection. And I think that it's just really hard to ask. And so, I think as a clinician, too, sometimes we're a case manager, you know? And I think sometimes we need to offer some ideas, you know? Well, you know, have you thought about, you know, trying to go into the workforce, or trying to talk to someone that could help you with a resume, or help you figure out how to get started, or, you know, even help you with a wardrobe? A lot of people haven't been allowed to buy anything. They have clothes that are 30 years old. And, you know, going back to work and being around different people can be very intimidating.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. And this part of the conversation reminds me a little bit about attachment work. And a lot of times when we're working with clients and we're doing attachment work, we become another internal voice that, or another voice, that they internalize. We become a figure that's a transitional figure for them to start to see and pattern what healthier relationships can look like. We hold healthy boundaries, but we do so with love, care, and compassion. We, um, give them language to use of empowerment language because maybe they've not ever heard that spoken over them before. And so, sometimes that patterning is a really important part of what we can do for our clients.
Barb Beck: Absolutely. And then I think even simple little things have such a big effect. You know, stop using the negative language when you talk about yourself, try to talk about yourself in a positive manner, instead of, you know, couching everything in, well, maybe I don't know how to do this, or I'm not very good at this. You know, and that our mind believes what we tell it.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Barb Beck: And so, I think that, you know, a lot of times, we have to fake it till we make it. But it is changing, honestly, everything in your life.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. And–
Barb Beck: And it's a daunting task.
Jennifer Agee: Exactly. That's, that's exactly where my mind was going is, if you thought– Just think of your own life, right? You're not in a, maybe not in an a narcissistic, narcissistic, abusive relationship, but think of any one thing that you had to change, if that was supposed to change overnight in a very radical way, how scary and intimidating would that be? If I told you everything that you thought you knew about yourself was wrong, and I expected you to change that overnight, that would be awful, right? Because you're setting yourself up for disappointment. You haven't built this, the tolerance of, you know, riding those waves of, of, um, doing it right, maybe not getting it right, and giving yourself compassion. And so, again, therapists, when you are working with clients, when they're healing from any form of abuse, be patient and be compassionate, um, because this takes time. There is, it's almost like brainwashing has taken place.
Barb Beck: Absolutely.
Jennifer Agee: And, and if you are gonna deprogram someone, that does not happen overnight, if you're gonna be a part of that process for somebody.
Barb Beck: And I tell, um, I tell a lot of other people that work with narcissistic, um, abuse, also, the thing that seems to be the most helpful—and, and we hear this all the time—no contact, go no contact. Well, that's scary because any big step is very threatening to that person. People that are narcissistic have a sixth sense when you're backing up, and they double down on their efforts. And so, that slow fade, you know, just don't return the phone call as quickly. You know, don't return the text. And then eventually you can block them. But if you do it abruptly, it's gonna cause you problems. And so, just doing that slow fade, setting small boundaries, and then increasing that. And so, it's really a lot about baby steps. Just baby steps with everything, and little changes can have a big effect.
Jennifer Agee: Well, I think about any change that you make, every time you make a small change and you start to see success or that, yes, I could do that, it's encouraging to the system. It feels really good. So, that makes perfect sense to me. So, even in the aftermath and providing that support, what does really healing look like from this?
Barb Beck: Well, it's a journey.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Barb Beck: And it's different for, for everybody. I really equate it to an onion, and you peel an onion, you take a layer off, and people are willing to do that much work. And then they have to take a breather, and hopefully, they keep coming back to deal with a little bit more. Sometimes the abuse is so extensive, it's like there's a blanket over it, and they have to peek at it, and then put it down, and do a little bit, and then come back. Because it's so overwhelming. And so, I think the healing process really is when they finally realize, okay, I'm not being dominated by anyone anymore. I'm gonna start to make my own decisions—very frightening but also very empowering. And so, I think it is just step after step after step. But as we know, it's biopsychosocial. You know, it's healing in every area of your life. A lot of times they've experienced, you know, spiritual abuse, financial abuse, just so common.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Really every area that can be controlled will be controlled if, if they, if the narcissist thinks they can get away with it.
Barb Beck: Absolutely.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Um, I have really appreciated this conversation today because the word narcissistic has been thrown around so much lately that I, I'm with you. I think a lot of therapists think that they know what that is, and then when it's, when it's actually in the room with you, you're doing a disservice if you really haven't done any continuing education, you've not talked to people with lived experience. Because they're counting on you to know your shit when they come in.
Barb Beck: Absolutely.
Jennifer Agee: Because they're finally reaching out. So, please, if this is an area that you're wanting to, um, do some work in, go get the continuing education, do some research, and make sure that you are well-equipped for the person that walks in their room, in your room, your office, because they're counting on you for that. Thank you so much for being on the show today, Barb. I really appreciate you, and I thank you for our conversation. How can people get in touch with you?
Barb Beck: Well, I'm on Psychology Today, Barbara Beck, LMFT. I have an office in Leewood, and also, I do have a support group, and we meet weekly on Tuesday nights on Zoom. I do register people. And so, my preference, and pretty much I insist it, that they are in therapy to be in the group.
Jennifer Agee: Perfect.
Barb Beck: And so, mainly my referrals come from other therapists, but there's just something so healing about the connections they make. They come in very meek, and they start sharing phone numbers, and they start sharing shared experiences. They're with like-minded people, and amazing things happen. I really believe that it speeds their healing process to know that they're not alone and to know that they're not crazy. Those are the two biggest issues.
Jennifer Agee: Not alone and not crazy. I love– Great parting words. Um, again, thank you for being on today. If you'd like to connect more with me, counselingcommunity.com. I would love to see you on a future retreat. Like, subscribe, and share. And get out there and live your best dang life.