Tiffany Cutrone, LCMHC, LCAS shares how bad advice in grad school created her struggle of finding her unique voice as a therapist. After stepping into authenticity, her practice grew and burnout decreased. Listen and learn what you need to know to find your voice as a therapist.
Tiffany is the owner of Rising Tide Counseling, based in Jacksonville, North Carolina. As a neurodivergent queer woman, her work focuses on serving the communities that she is a part of. Tiffany strives to empower the LGBTQ+ community and women to find meaning, heal from trauma, and create a life of authenticity filled with genuine and healthy relationships. She is also passionate about supporting graduate students, interns, and provisionally licensed clinicians on their journey in this field.
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Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Tiffany Cutrone, LCMHC, LCAS shares how bad advice in grad school created her struggle of finding her unique voice as a therapist. After stepping into authenticity, her practice grew and burnout decreased. Listen and learn what you need to know to find your voice as a therapist.
Tiffany is the owner of Rising Tide Counseling, based in Jacksonville, North Carolina. As a neurodivergent queer woman, her work focuses on serving the communities that she is a part of. Tiffany strives to empower the LGBTQ+ community and women to find meaning, heal from trauma, and create a life of authenticity filled with genuine and healthy relationships. She is also passionate about supporting graduate students, interns, and provisionally licensed clinicians on their journey in this field.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023
Jennifer Agee: Hello. Hello. And welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I'm your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. And with me today is Tiffany Cutrone. Tiffany is a private practice owner. She is also a licensed clinical mental health counselor and the owner of Rising Tide Counseling based in Jacksonville, North Carolina. Welcome to the show.
Tiffany Cutrone: Hi, Jen. Happy to be here.
Jennifer Agee: Thank you. So, tell me what is something that you wish you learned in grad school?
Tiffany Cutrone: Um, well, I wish I didn't learn something in grad school. Uh–
Jennifer Agee: Ooh. Okay.
Tiffany Cutrone: Um, I know I had an experience with an instructor of mine, uh, who had a problem with some of my facial expressions when doing role plays and, um, practicing, uh, doing different techniques. Uh, and he said, you know, I really need you to try to have a face, like, you know, your client is just saying, I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch. Um, I love peanut butter and jelly, or my family is full of peanut butter and jelly. Uh, so, this idea of having this straight face where I wasn't reacting to whatever the client was saying, as if it was just really neutral. So, I wish I didn't learn that 'cause it took me a long time to unlearn that.
Jennifer Agee: Even from a practical standpoint, isn't that weird? That's not very human.
Tiffany Cutrone: No, not at all. And it felt very unnatural for me.
Jennifer Agee: Well, I, I know you in real life, and you're a very expressive person, so to try and, like, make a peanut butter and jelly face would be, I think, very hard and incongruent with really who you are and probably the things that would make a client feel most comfortable with you, your authenticity.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah, absolutely. I know, um, when we were in New Orleans earlier this year, I was sharing this story, and you were like, what? And everybody was really shocked, um, because I am very expressive, and I've got big eyes, and they react, and my face reacts when I am in session and just in conversation. Um, because I do believe that that's a big part of connecting and building those relationships.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I, and when he said he's essentially wanting you to be what we learned in school was Tabula Rasa, the blank slate. But the reality is that isn't what therapy actually looks like. I mean, that's a very antiquated view of what therapy looks like. Therapy is, uh, a relationship a, a healthy well-boundaried, mostly one-sided relationship, but it is still a, a relationship, and to not react or respond when someone tells you something really horrific happened or to not have empathy on your face when they tell you something very painful, that to me seems like it could do more harm to the relationship than, than any– more harm than good for sure.
Tiffany Cutrone: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I agree. Um, I think about some of the experiences I had before grad school in therapy, interactions I've had, uh, and that approach just never worked for me. Uh, I didn't do well in those situations. And then I think about the clients that I do have now, where I'm much more comfortable in who I am as a professional, uh, and they'll be like, oh gosh, I was waiting all week or for the last two weeks to share this amazing news with you 'cause I just wanted to see how you were gonna react. Um, you know, or I knew you would be so proud of me for doing this thing that we've been working on for six months. Um, and really just that validation and that experience, um, where we're sharing in those successes or we're sharing in the tragedy that happens in life together. Um, and I think that's really been helpful for me, um, as a clinician in building my relationships with clients.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. It sounds like a, a part of what you had to do was unlearn how to be your professor's version of a therapist and step into your authenticity and realness as a therapist and clinician.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah, and I think that, you know, for a while there I was really questioning, you know, what was I doing in this program because it felt so unnatural to me. Uh, I know I was the kid that always had people confiding in them, and even through adolescence and, and young adulthood, I was always, I always fit the role of the natural therapist. So, it really made me question, you know, what, what was I doing wrong? Um, or how is it that that was something that was really attractive to the people I cared about most or even complete strangers in line at the grocery store to start opening up to me? Um, so, it, it just felt very odd to me to have to change that. And it made me question things, um, in grad school about the fit and who I was and how to represent that in the therapy room and in my practice.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. It reminds me that even for those of us therapists who are further along in our journey, the responsibility that we have when we're in a position of clinical supervision or teaching or leadership in any capacity, that we are not putting our own biases of how we think it needs to be done on someone. Because the, the truth is, within our field, we obviously have, you know, healthy boundaries of what we can and can't do, or should and shouldn't do, what's wise, what isn't, you know, all of that kind of stuff—ethics, the E-word, ethics, ugh. But the, the truth is, as long as you don't zap yourself on the fence, there's an awful lot of room to be yourself as therapist in the room. Um, so, I'm, I'm glad that you undertook that journey and had to really, kind of, deconstruct what you were taught.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah, and you, and you know, that's really difficult, right, because you're being graded and judged and trying to figure that out. Um, and if it wasn't for amazing supervision that I had in my, uh, internship in grad school and even my licensure journey, the supervision that I had in, in meeting certain colleagues over the years, I think it would've been much harder for me to get to this place, though it has taken a while, um, to feel like I'm able to be authentic in who I am as a clinician and represent me and what's important to me and my community.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. And, you know, you mentioned that just kind of being a natural therapist your whole life. I think most of us in this field have had those experiences. I know my daughter always says, your face did that thing again. Like, when we're out at the grocery store or something like that, and then the cashier will say, my husband just died. And she's like, why in the world did that lady just tell you that? I'm like, I don't know. And then she'll just say, your face just did that thing again. I'm like, I have no idea why it just happened. But it happens a lot to therapists, so, yeah, you can't, you can't hear those things and just be neutral and be like, well, that sounds very difficult for you. I mean, come on now.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah. Yeah. It just doesn't, I mean, how do you expect somebody to open up and share and be vulnerable with you, a client, if you are not willing to do that a little bit yourself. And I'm not saying put all your crap out there and, and dump on them, um, or allow your emotional response to guide the session, but really thinking about what it means to be able to connect more than just the techniques and more than just what we learn in the textbooks and the theoretical orientations and the evidence-based stuff that's out there. It's way more than just that.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Well, and I know even from a marketing perspective, it is much better for us to be authentic and, um, you shared with me a little bit of, of your experience with that. Can you share that with our audience?
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah. So, um, I've had a private practice now since 2019. Uh, and, you know, kind of, started off small, you know, trying to build and create something. I'm like, you know, somebody will wanna talk to me. I've been successful in different, um, in different environments I've worked in where people, uh, have gravitated towards me. But I was always really nervous about putting myself out there, the marketing piece. I'm not great with social media. Um, and I always struggle to find the right words because I feel like I'm the kind of person that once you get to know me, you're like, oh, wow. But if you don't know me, I can be kind of quiet, I can be kind of shy, um, I'm neurodivergent, so sometimes things feel really overwhelming to me, so I tend to pull back. Uh, and marketing and putting myself out there is incredibly overwhelming. It still is sometimes. Getting better. Um, But I decided to abandon working for everybody else, recently, uh, and go full-time into my private practice, uh, and work on building a group practice. And one of the commitments I made to myself was to represent who I am, my community, where I come from, in a way that felt honest and true to me. Um, so I'm a queer woman, uh, and putting that little, tiny bit of information out there in my, uh, I think it was on my Psychology Today profile that I did it first, um, I mean, the, the amount of requests that I received was absolutely overwhelming, um, for consultation. I think you can help me. This is my situation. Um, and I had a pretty steady flow of, of referrals beforehand that I was happy with, but I was shocked at putting just a little bit about who I am and how I identify out there, and the response that it received, uh, from so many people looking for help and support.
Jennifer Agee: What helped you push back that fear? Because that is a level of exposure and vulnerability, right, to let people see behind, you know, the mask that might get put up sometimes, and not just a picture on psychology today, but really humanizing yourself as a therapist. What helped you push past that fear?
Tiffany Cutrone: Um, I think that– I'm a mom. My daughter is my absolute world, and I try to live my life thinking about how to be the best role model for her that I could possibly be. Uh, and I'm always like, let it fly, girl. You've got this, whatever. And she is the most confident little human I know. Um, so I think that trying to tap into some of what I'm teaching her was a huge driving force, um, to be able to put myself out there, um, and also to make the move into full-time private practice. What motivated me was to be able to spend more time with her. So, really just being able to do what was most important to me and what that meant was me representing myself authentically to be able to serve the community that I'm a part of. I live in a pretty, um, rural area for the most part, and it's not always easy to find affirming services, affirming clinicians, uh, that, that just get it, right? Like, there's a big– it's a huge difference when you don't feel like you have to explain, uh, where you're coming from sometimes. And I think I just, in literally a sentence or two, was able to convey that, and, and just really fly with it. And it's felt really great to be able to work with people who feel like they've never been understood before by a therapist.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I love that. And I think it also really highlights how when we are congruent with our words and our actions and who we really are, especially when we're marketing and advertising ourselves, that people can feel the realness, um, and they connect with that. And when, when you're putting on airs, or you're just, I've been in business for a blank amount of years, you know, when you're, kind of, fitting a cookie cutter of what other people have done before, it rings as not relatable. And I think it does the opposite of what people think it's going to do. Instead of giving you credibility, some part of us feels, um, disconnected from the message because it doesn't feel completely genuine. I think our BS-ometer has really improved probably in part because of social media, right? We, we trust but verify for sure now because of filters and, you know, a ton of other things. We're very skeptical. And so, when we feel someone is being genuine and authentic by putting, kind of, throwing the rope out and saying, here's one thing about me, you're already leading with vulnerability, which I think then makes it easier for a client to come in and start in a place of trusting that you can handle that vulnerability.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah, and I mean that's what the relationship is about, building trust and connecting. Um, you know, I remember, in the beginning, when I first was provisionally licensed, my supervisor, I was like, I need these interventions. I have to get organized. I need to be able to create this beautiful package of how to cure my clients in 8-to-10 sessions. And she was like, you need to chill the fuck out. Um, relax. Take a breath. You need to be able to connect with people first, which you could do, so leave all of that aside. You know, she always said 80% of what you're going to do in that room or in that space with a client is connecting with them and just being human with them. Um, So, I carry that with me even now. There are times where, you know, we're all prone to bouts of imposter syndrome, um, and self-doubt. Uh, and I really just kind of fall back to that. Like, this, this is a relationship that I'm building with another human being. Uh, it– sure, some of the interventions and all that stuff that we take our continuing education classes on, um, is helpful. But for the most part, it's really about being able to create that connection, that trust, that vulnerability, and being able to show up for your client in a way that feels genuine to them.
Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. I know, um, when I was younger and I went to therapy, one time, I went and what I really needed to do was just say stuff out loud. Like, I needed to not be the secret keeper only of, of something that happened. And so, I didn't need the therapist to give me any magical solution. Honestly, that's the opposite of what I wanted and needed. I just needed someone else to hear my story. I needed someone to sit in that space and be able to accept me even with what had happened. And that was so powerful that it, that experience, and it really did help, help me know now that I'm, you know, actually a therapist and not just a kid anymore, but, um, that your, your supervisor was right. A huge part of what we do is hold space for people. And we've, we kind of flinged that word around like the, that phrase like holding space. And people are like, what kind of woo-woo freaking people are you? But when you're doing it, you know what it is. It's this, this space is sacred, and no one gets to trample on your feelings in here, no one gets to tell you your reality isn't your reality. In this space, you are safe, and I am here with you, and I'm gonna walk alongside you while we're figuring it out.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, I know part of my initial consultations that I do with clients, it's about me, um, really talking to them about what their needs are. You know, what are they hoping to get from the time that we're going to spend together? How can I best serve them and give them what they need? I have this line that I always say, um, that therapists are like shoes. We are, we all serve a purpose, and we don't fit every foot in every occasion. So, if I have people that have reached out to me that have had negative experiences with therapy, I'm like, it was just the wrong shoe for the wrong occasion, uh, which I think is really helpful, too, for being able to, again, empower the profession, um, and not knock down any fellow therapists. Because the reality is is that, we can't, we're, we're not gonna be a good fit for everybody, nor should we be. So, really thinking about how to show up and, and ask clients for what they need. And a lot of the people that have reached out to me, they're like, I don't know what I need. Nobody has ever asked me that. Or my feelings have never mattered before. So, even something as little or as seemingly unassuming that doesn't necessarily seem like something you would learn in grad school, can make such a huge difference for somebody reaching out for services too.
Jennifer Agee: Well, and I love that idea of, um, not all shoes fit or all shoes aren't right for every occasion kind of concept because it also takes away that feeling of, um, if we are not really connecting with a client that somehow that means that we're a bad clinician, and sometimes, it's just not a good fit. The personality, um, connection isn't right, your sense of humor doesn't jive with their sense of humor, or a thousand other little things, and it's okay that it doesn't, that it's not a good fit. The worst thing would be to double down and then feel like you have to not bring that into the room and talk to the client about it, but instead just pretend as though you are, because that's, that's not gonna get anyone where they need, need to go or want to go.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah. And I think that will also burn you out as a clinician too. Um, which, you know, obviously, in the beginning, when you're first learning, you wanna be able to help everybody and do everything, um, whether you're in your internship in grad school working on, you know, working on your hours towards independent licensure or even beyond that, or have 5, 10, 20 plus years in the field, I think that it could be really easy to burn out if we think that we need to be the right fit for everybody. Um, and that's not, that's not necessarily the case because there are plenty of us out there. Um, and we all have more than enough work to do if we just really focus on what we can connect authentically with our clients.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. What's one piece of advice that you would have for new clinicians just coming outta school based on what you've learned and your, your experiences?
Tiffany Cutrone: Um, think about who is most important for you to serve. I know that, you know, there's a lot of buzzwords out there about trying to find your niche and, and all of that, but I think, you know, when you think about the people that you connect with, or the people that you support or help, or the causes that you're passionate about, um, that, that's going to impact your ability to best serve your clients. So, really think about that and take time to figure that out. And it's okay if it evolves over time. I know that the people in the communities I've worked with have changed over time. Um, I know right now my focus is mainly on the LGBTQ community, uh, and women, parents. Um, I've always been passionate, even before I had my daughter, about working with parents and empowering them. Um, and again, thinking about the, again, the LGBTQ community that I'm a part of, um, being able to represent, uh, my people, uh, and taking that responsibility pretty seriously with a few curse words and awful jokes and puns in sessions. Um, but, you know, I think that, figure out who, who you feel that fire in you when you're helping, uh, and really figure out how to go from there and connect. Connect with all kinds of people because sometimes you never know what you're going to be passionate about or what you're going to be interested in.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. And that can evolve over time, like you said. You know, um, I taught a class at Abilene University on private practice basics, recently. And one of the things I told the class was, your career is going to be long. And you are going to flow in and out of many different things in your career, and it's okay. So, you can start out feeling super strongly and passionately about serving X community, and then something's gonna spark your curiosity, and you're gonna go down a rabbit trail, and then because of that, you're gonna meet amazing people that are down that rabbit trail that are gonna take you in a whole different direction, and then you'll kind of flow into that. And that actually makes a much more interesting career, in my opinion, than feeling like you have to put yourself in any sort of box. If you try something and it doesn't work the way you thought it was going to work, um, change it. It's okay. I really thought, when I was in grad school, marriage and family therapy. That was it. I was gonna work with couples primarily full-time and do family therapy. As it turns out, I really freaking don't like it. I had a few very high-conflict couples. I went to court a couple of times for family stuff. And I realized, I don't really like it at all. And so, I, instead of saying, no, I need to figure out more techniques of how to, I just said, you know what, this is not for me. I, it drains me. I feel like I need a nap afterwards. You know? It's time to move on and focus on something else. No shame in that. You get to evolve just like you want your clients to evolve, you get to evolve in your professional career as well. No pressure man. Take the pressure off.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah, and I think even that idea of taking that pressure off, you know, thinking about, you know, what my professor wanted me to be in grad school, and thinking about what I should be, and then even talking, you know, I've been super passionate about helping grad students and uh, working, people working towards licensure, because I had such a difficult road ahead of me for a lot of different reasons, um, after graduating with my master's. Um, there was a lot of moves. It made it really difficult because I didn't stay in one state long enough to be able to work through the licensure process. And even, uh, by the time I was able to get settled, uh, I'm in North Carolina right now, it was a fight with the board because there was some wording that didn't quite line up. And really trying to help encourage people to not give up if something feels, um, grad students, pre-licensed clinicians, to not give up because sometimes it can be really hard, and there's a lot of red tape. And I've gotten really good at navigating that, partially because it's been so hard for me to get to this point, um, and just providing that encouragement and that support. Um, so, that supervision piece, that's been something that's been new over the last, um, about six months to a year that I've been doing. And that's been really exciting and energizing because, god, I remember what it was like to be there and struggle so bad. Um, so, really just not giving up and finding the people that are going to support you along the way too.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. We share that passion for clinical supervision. I really enjoy. It is, you know, it's just one of those things that my day goes by so fast when it's mostly all clinical supervises, because I really, really enjoy it. Um, I enjoy supporting and teaching and encouraging and sit, being able to sit in that space when we've been there ourselves, I think is a privilege and I, you know, I really enjoy it. You know what theme that's coming up a lot in my clinical supervision lately is this shame-based thinking around maybe not wanting to be in private practice or own your own private practice. Um, that some people are finding out that they really like being therapists, but they don't like being business owners. And this idea that if you're not a business owner and running your own private practice, that somehow, you're less of a therapist, which is absolute shit, but it's crap. But, um, yeah. Just having those spaces to even say that out loud with a good clinical supervisor and be able to talk it through and have somebody give you some wisdom and support behind it, so, so powerful.
Tiffany Cutrone: Yeah. I mean, I think about, um, you know, one of the, uh, clinics that I've worked in. I thought that was going to be my, my dream job. Um, I, I remember helping kind of support it getting started. Uh, before I was able to, while I was working on my master's degree, and I was like, this is where I wanna work. This is what I wanna do. This is, this is the role I wanna serve for, like, the rest of my life. I'm going to retire and die doing that job. And I very quickly found out that my expectation, um, and the reality did not line up at all. Um, and I think that goes into being flexible and thinking about it. So, I always wanted to have a private practice. I think back to when I was younger and, and, uh, having some of the experiences that I had, I was like, yeah, I wanna do that. I wanna have my own office. I'm gonna be my own boss. Um, but it's intimidating. And it's a lot of administrative work sometimes. And if you don't surround yourself with the right people, again, it could be really easy to give up. Um, I know that, you know, you and I have had so many conversations. Um, you know, I think about in Hawaii, when we were sitting next to each other, um, at Ernesto's summit, uh, you know, me going back and forth about should I do something, should I not do something? Uh, should I stay at my W2 job, you know, my full-time, full-time, quote-unquote day job? Uh, should I leave? What should I do? And you were like, just fucking do it. Go for it.
Jennifer Agee: Yep. And you did.
Tiffany Cutrone: I know. I did. I did. And, you know, I think that, you know, I know that I have valued our relationship so much, um, and so many of the other folks that we, we both know that are in practice, whether they own group practices or they work for agencies or are doing whatever cool thing that they're doing now. Um, and I think that that's made a huge difference in my growth and encouraging me to step outside of what's been comfortable for me and figure out how that's also going to fit too.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Surrounding yourself with a good tribe of fellow therapists, that is one of the smartest things you can ever do for yourself as a clinician because they support, encourage, they give you new ideas, they help you get outta your own head sometimes, it's– Those are relationships, they're, they're just worth gold. I know I have grown so much, not only as a therapist but as a business owner and entrepreneur, because of my relationships with other people. So, Tiffany and I are in complete agreement on that one. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it, and I am really taking away, don't be a peanut butter and jelly face. It's okay to just be yourself. How can people connect with you?
Tiffany Cutrone: Uh, so, my website, risingtidecounseling.org. Uh, I have a Facebook page too, Rising Tide Counseling, and also on Instagram, which, uh, just recently got that started. So, if you wanna show me some love as I'm trying to figure it all out, um, that would be greatly appreciated, putting myself out there, being vulnerable. Um, so, yeah, I would love to connect. And I'm hoping to have some new opportunities for training, um, and working with some, uh, newly licensed clinicians and grad students, um, across the state of North Carolina.
Jennifer Agee: That sounds amazing. Thank you again for coming on. And thank you for listening to the podcast today. If you'd like to connect more with me, or any upcoming retreats, continuing education, or coaching, counselingcommunity.com. Get out there and live your best dang life.