Paige Weber, LPC shares openly about living with dyslexia. Paige shares about the 3 types of dyslexia, strengths of dyslexia and accommodations that can help.
Paige is a Licensed Professional Counselor and received her Master’s degree in Mental Health from Mid-American Nazarene University. Paige also has a certificate from the University of Kansas Leadership Education in Neurodevelopmental and Related Disabilities program. With an extensive background in working with inpatient mental health programs before graduate school, she is well-versed in navigating mental health systems. Paige often uses these tools with parents of special needs children who are navigating services, advocacy, and those experiencing caregiver fatigue.
Paige also has experience and training in issues related to anxiety, childhood trauma, adult trauma, emotional regulation, family dysfunction, parents with special needs children, adult children of alcoholics who have experienced abuse and neglect, and working with neurodiverse populations.
Paige is a therapist for those who have a deep desire to understand who they are and their patterns of relating and want to do deep psychological work. Depth work is clinically done using a psychodynamic and family systems framework. Paige is an integrated clinician who pulls from Internal Family Systems, EMDR, Mindfulness, Emotion Focused Techniques as well as Somatic Experiencing. Paige has also been a professional speaker for the last decade in the areas of neurodiversity, trauma, and psychological topics.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Paige Weber, LPC shares openly about living with dyslexia. Paige shares about the 3 types of dyslexia, strengths of dyslexia and accommodations that can help.
Paige is a Licensed Professional Counselor and received her Master’s degree in Mental Health from Mid-American Nazarene University. Paige also has a certificate from the University of Kansas Leadership Education in Neurodevelopmental and Related Disabilities program. With an extensive background in working with inpatient mental health programs before graduate school, she is well-versed in navigating mental health systems. Paige often uses these tools with parents of special needs children who are navigating services, advocacy, and those experiencing caregiver fatigue.
Paige also has experience and training in issues related to anxiety, childhood trauma, adult trauma, emotional regulation, family dysfunction, parents with special needs children, adult children of alcoholics who have experienced abuse and neglect, and working with neurodiverse populations.
Paige is a therapist for those who have a deep desire to understand who they are and their patterns of relating and want to do deep psychological work. Depth work is clinically done using a psychodynamic and family systems framework. Paige is an integrated clinician who pulls from Internal Family Systems, EMDR, Mindfulness, Emotion Focused Techniques as well as Somatic Experiencing. Paige has also been a professional speaker for the last decade in the areas of neurodiversity, trauma, and psychological topics.
OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:
Jennifer Agee: Hello, hello, and welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I'm your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. With me today is Paige Weber. Paige is an amazing therapist. She, she actually does a lot of really cool stuff. She has a certificate from the University of Kansas, Leadership Education in Neurodevelopmental and Related Disabilities. Hello? Is that a mouthful? But it sounds so cool. She's got a huge background in working with inpatient mental health programs, and she's well-versed in navigating the mental health system. Paige also is someone who lives with dyslexia, has dyslexia, and I've invited her on today because I would like to know more, because my granddaughter was recently diagnosed with dyslexia, so I'm going deep down the rabbit hole of learning everything I can to be the best grandma I can be and support my, my little one that I love. So, Paige, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming on.
Paige Weber: Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Agee: So, what are some things that you would just like to tell our audience about dyslexia in general? Let's just start there. Because I think people know a little bit about it, but as I'm learning, it is way more complex than I ever thought it was.
Paige Weber: Yeah. So, the one thing about dyslexic mind, and I'll tell you this upfront when you start asking me questions, is dyslexics are notorious for taking a really complicated issue and simplifying it into simple terms for people. Um, and so, dyslexia in a simplified form is there's three types of dyslexia; there's sight, sense, and sound. So, sight is what most people think of. They have trouble seeing the words. They reverse their Ps and their Qs and their Ds and their Bs. That's the kind that most people think of when they think of dyslexia as sight. Um, they also have trouble, uh, with sight words. So, for example, my type of dyslexia, instead of seeing each individual letter, I see the cluster of letters like an image, almost like you would see the, the Chinese alphabet. I see an image, and that cluster looks like a word. My brain assumes what that word is. So, if it's that, and then I might trade them out. That's a great example of how sight works. Also, with sight, sometimes, we take a word out like an "a" in that, and put in an "e," and then suddenly we have "thet," and "thet" isn't a word. So, then your brain just translates it, and says, well, then it's "then."
Jennifer Agee: Ah, interesting.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: My granddaughter has perfect handwriting but backwards. She'll spell words exactly backwards, but the word is spelled correctly. Uh, the math problem is done correctly if you're doing it backwards, like, so she must have the sight type. Can you have more than one? I know we're gonna go through the other two, but I am like busting with questions.
Paige Weber: Yes. So, you can have more than one kind. So, some people like me, in a paragraph, I might take out 19 words but add 26. And still, at the end of the paragraph, have made something that sounds comprehensible and beautiful, and there you are, but is not what's written on the page.
Jennifer Agee: That is so freaking fascinating. Like...
Paige Weber: It's beautiful how the brain comes up with that idea.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Like, what is happening in there that makes all of that happen? Okay. So that's kind of a little over–
Paige Weber: That's another question. We'll get to that question when we do the other two.
Jennifer Agee: Yes. Okay. Anything else on sight you kind of wanna overview or let us know about before we go on to sense and sound?
Paige Weber: That's kind of the key behind sight. So, the phonetic piece of it is the next piece, which is sound. Um, so, in the United States, we do phonics linguistics. So, look at the word and sound the word out. Well, sounding the word out works great if you see each individual letter and you can picture what each individual letter sounds like. Uh, but for someone who clusters the words together, sounding out language and being able to hear it, um, and even sometimes even having it heard reading it to you, um, can be really difficult for people with dyslexia.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: So, that's kind of the phonetic awareness around dyslexia, the sounding it out.
Jennifer Agee: So, so, with the sense, is there also always a sight component or not always a sight component?
Paige Weber: So, you know, I hate to say it this way, but dyslexia is on a spectrum.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Um, and so everyone's version of dyslexia is gonna be slightly different based on their strengths and their weaknesses.
Jennifer Agee: Kinda like ADHD, right? Different things come out, and it looks wildly different based on–
Paige Weber: Yes, absolutely.
Jennifer Agee: Who you are as an individual. Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: And also what you've learned in school, what kind of teachers and lived experiences you've had with that. Um, I went to school, you know, before teachers were sensitive at all. And so, you know, I got a lot of, like, you're never gonna—I had a teacher tell me I'll never graduate high school, that I'm too dumb.
Jennifer Agee: Oh, no.
Paige Weber: For real. So, when I graduated with honors, I went back and let her know what I thought of her comments. I didn't forget.
Jennifer Agee: No. Well, yeah, I mean that's something when you speak words over anyone, but especially a child, from, from someone who's in authority in your life, that stuff really sticks with you.
Paige Weber: Yeah. And so, if there's one thing that I want people working with dyslexics and people living with dyslexia to know is that you are brilliant, and just because your brain isn't in the 80% doesn't make you less brilliant.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, absolutely.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Well, I know my granddaughter's a smarty pants. Like, she picks up on, on concepts so quickly, and, and she is, she, she's very adaptable. Like, it's not an intelligence issue at all.
Paige Weber: Yeah, and that is the very consistent, evidence-based understanding of dyslexia is that it's really brilliant people. In fact, they guess that around 40% of self-made millionaires have dyslexia.
Jennifer Agee: Really?
Paige Weber: Yes, it's very, very high. Entrepreneurship is very high within dyslexia.
Jennifer Agee: It seems like entrepreneurship and neurodivergence, period, seem to go very hand in hand. I am like one of the only entrepreneurs that I know that does not have any form of neurodivergence, and I've taken all the tests.
Paige Weber: Well, there's gotta be some, right?
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I'm the outlier.
Paige Weber: Yeah, but it's great because entrepreneurs are willing to think outside of the box.
They're willing to take risks. They're willing to see things from a different angle. And when you're in, you know, elementary school, that's not considered a good trait. When you're in college, that's an amazing trait.
Jennifer Agee: Right. So, yeah, we could probably go on and on about the school system and how it's not set up well for everyone. But let's go ahead and get on to number three, the sound, before we kind of go into other areas.
Paige Weber: Sense. So sense is the third one.
Jennifer Agee: Sense.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Um, and that's making sense of the content, so understanding it. Um, for some people with dyslexia, like for me, if I have a lot to read, I can read for a while, and then everything starts to move, and then, I no longer am seeing anything. Because my eyes and my brain are trying so hard to focus, trying so hard to understand, and then everything starts to float away.
Jennifer Agee: Okay. It's, it's just like, it's so tired from adapting, the hard work of adapting, that it just kind of powers down.
Paige Weber: Mm-hmm. So, a couple of people, and, you know, I think there's still a lot of research to be done in terms of understanding dyslexia, but their best guess is that most people read with the left side of their brain, um, you know, where your language and your thinking and your cognitive abilities lie, but dyslexic read with the right side of the brain. Um, and so, it's visual, and it's alive, and it's in motion. It's just a very different place to read from.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. That creative part.
Paige Weber: Yeah. So, it's way more tiring for us.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: What was that like for you being in school? When, like, when were you diagnosed? When did somebody figure this out? And what, what was all of that like?
Paige Weber: So, for me, I already had made it through high school and college. Um, and when I was starting graduate school, um, my two boys were diagnosed with dyslexia. And I, being who I am, just started researching just like you're doing, right?
Jennifer Agee: Yep.
Paige Weber: And as I started researching, I was like, oh, I do these things, and I didn't know that was a thing. So–
Jennifer Agee: What were some of the things you were doing?
Paige Weber: Um, like leaving words out and adding words. So, I would read little kids' books to my, you know, four-year-old. And he, um, he also has autism, so he would memorize the book, which is super common within autism. Um, and then he would correct me because it wouldn't read it the same every time.
Jennifer Agee: Ah.
Paige Weber: And what that does to someone who doesn't know they have dyslexia is it makes you feel like, oh my gosh, I'm dumb. Like, I, I really don't, I can't, I can't do basic four-year-old book-level reading. And so, um, it really, like, it affects people's self-esteem significantly if they don't understand what they have and they don't understand what to do about it. So, I actually went back to, um, the woman who diagnosed my kids and said, could you, could, could, could you do an assessment on me as well? Um, and she did. And so, I was in my first full semester of grad school. Um, I got accommodations, and it, it changed my life. I thought, oh my gosh, is this how easy school is for other people?
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Paige Weber: Um, it just made it a ton easier.
Jennifer Agee: I'm telling you, uh, I know you can't see most of you are listening to this, but I just have tears running down my cheeks, just honestly thinking about anybody ever making my granddaughter feel dumb.
Paige Weber: Yeah. And that, I think that is, is the hard piece of dyslexia that you're looking at. And I, I think it's also important to look at all the amazing things that dyslexics offer.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Um, there's a website. They're, I'm not affiliated with them, um, but I would encourage you to check it out and put it in your podcast, Jennifer. It's called Made by Dyslexia. Um, and they have a test on there. So, if you're listening and you're saying, I really resonate to what Paige is saying, um, to go on there and take their test first. It's not a, it's not a clinical diagnosis, so I will tell you that. But it is a test about dyslexia that will make you feel like, oh wow, I'm really great at all these things, and it really looks at all the strengths of dyslexia. And what I liked about, um, their website in particular is they're creating a movement, I think primarily in the UK, um, to help businesses understand why hiring dyslexics, um, is so meaningful and what they have to offer, um, in a digital age where things are changing so quick. For example, dyslexics, um, can see the big picture and also know that there's a list of details to get done and, a lot of times, have the ability to, um, be in the middle of that. So they can see the big, they can be aware of the small, and they can manage both sides.
Jennifer Agee: That is probably why they're good entrepreneurs then, because entrepreneurs zoom up. We see the big picture, we see the gaps that are there, and then we have a natural drive to wanna fill the gaps.
Paige Weber: Yes. So, that is a great example of dyslexia. Artistic nature is another form, um, that comes out a lot of times because we are visual thinkers. So, when you think about, um, clinicians, this is a great example. So as a therapist, when you listen to clients, think about how you take in information. So, for me, it's like watching a movie. So, I watch a movie as they tell me the story, and I can picture what they're saying in detail.
Jennifer Agee: Hmm. So, that's how your brain is processing what they're saying is in video form in your head.
Paige Weber: Yes. And so, then it's very rare that I have to go back and look at a case note, um, because I don't forget. I don't watch movies twice either for the same reason. Like, I saw it, and I know exactly what happens. Um, because my mind is visual by nature.
Jennifer Agee: What are some of the other strengths of, what's the right word? Uh, dyslexia, dyslexic brain. Like what? Someone with dyslexia? I mean, I, I wanna, I wanna say the right things, but I'm not quite sure what it is, so...
Paige Weber: So, I think, in general, uh, you know, just when we think about it from a multicultural standpoint, you always wanna use the person language first. So, a person living with dyslexia, um, a dyslexic themselves might say, I'm dyslexic. And, um, in cultural sensitivity, they can identify themselves as owning that, um, distinction. But as a person not having that, then our job is to say that you're a person living with.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Good. All right. Thank you for helping me on that. All right now. Back to some strengths. What are some other, like, what are some other really cool ways that a person living with dyslexia might see the world or operate in the world that's unique and different?
Paige Weber: Um, I think they tend to think really outside of the box. Um, math is a great concept to, to talk about. So, with math, um, a lot of times kids don't start, start struggling until second or third grade. So, early on, simple math, one plus one, I got this 'cause they have fingers. So, they've just made math visual, right?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: You cannot do multiplication and division on your fingers.
Jennifer Agee: Correct.
Paige Weber: So, third, fourth grade, you can ask my kids, very difficult math for them. Very difficult math for me. I remember third grade just crying over my timetables because there wasn't a way for me to make it visual.
Jennifer Agee: Hmm.
Paige Weber: Then I had a teacher that said, multiplication's just addition. So, take, take two numbers that you can simplify down, and add them together.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: So, if you want 12 times 4, don't try to memorize what 12 times 4 is. Think to yourself, what's 24 plus 24? My brain will say, what's 25 plus 25? 50 minus 2 is 48.
Jennifer Agee: And my brain goes, that's a lot of work.
Paige Weber: It is a lot of work, but it, for me, it's simpler, and I'm actually faster at math because I do it that way.
Jennifer Agee: Okay. Okay.
Paige Weber: So, when I go shopping and something's 20% off, I will take the retail amount, $17.50, and I will, okay, 10% of that would be a $1.70. $1.75 times 2. Okay. So, a $1.50 and a $1.50 is 3 plus the 25 left off. So, okay. Roughly $3.50 off.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: So, and then I backpedal it. Okay, so $3.50 minus $17.50. So, really complicated way to do it, but for my brain, it's the way that makes sense.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. It just works.
Paige Weber: Right.
Jennifer Agee: Um, so, what do they think is actually happening in the brain with dyslexia? Do they know yet?
Paige Weber: So, the couple of theories that I have read, and, you know, if your listeners know better, please tell me because this is just what I've read and what I know and understand. Um, one part of that theory is the right brain, left brain, right? Like, we use a different side of our brain for things. The other one is connected to, um, kind of our tethering poles in our brain. Um, again, that's layman's words for neuroscience here. Um, and so, within autism, we often see those poles are pretty close together. And so, that circuit is really short, and so, everything is very, very close and very, very reactive, which is what makes them so sensitive, right?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Within the dyslexic mind, they think those poles are far apart, and that space is time to take in more information, to see things differently, but also that means sometimes we lose things in transmission.
Jennifer Agee: Oh, okay.
Paige Weber: Um, so, that was off of a TED Talk that I watched, um, that was looking at that very topic. Um, and so, that is the theory that I think is kind of moving forward. Um, dyslexia has one of the longest, um, kind of most research disabilities 'cause it, it was founded in 1887, so it's been around a long, long time. And originally, it was thought of as a word blindness. It was very much thought of as a, an eye issue, right? We can't see words. Um, and we did really good with that until about the seventies, moving it towards thinking that it's actually a brain issue. And in the seventies, they, they jumped back, and said, well, maybe it's not a thing at all. And so, the seventies did a lot of damage for current-day thoughts on dyslexia, um, because people began to go back and think, well, maybe it's visual.
Jennifer Agee: Okay, so if a therapist is listening to this and they know they have a client on their intake form, said dyslexia, right, um, what are some, are there any adaptive things that we can do as therapists to make our environment more conducive to their, their healing or, um, just to create a better space for them?
Paige Weber: Yeah. So, one thing is to make a video for your website with informed consent. Um, and when my website's up and going, that's on my list, um, is to make sure that there's a video that explains informed consent in detail so that when you're in session and you're going over the highlights of informed consent, um, there's a way to do that.
Jennifer Agee: Okay. So, when you say video of informed consent, because I, I'm gonna do this, um, do, should I just read the informed consent, or like read it, explain it? Kind of like I would do each section with a client in front of me if they wanted a detailed version in the intake.
Paige Weber: Yes.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: And read it and summarize it. Um, because I guarantee you most dyslexics are gonna listen to it at a faster speed.
Jennifer Agee: You told me that. So, tell me a little bit about that.
Paige Weber: Yeah, so because dyslexics, and this is a big misconception, this is one of my biggest challenges in grad school, um, was that people assume that if I'm coming in with a disability form, that I need everything really slow and really spelled out. Um, but for people with dyslexic, that's almost insultive.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Um, Because our IQ is fine. Our IQ is not the issue. Um, and I'm a visual learner, and I'm also an auditory learner. I actually am equal amounts. And so, if I'm seeing and hearing simultaneously, I can go through material really, really fast. Um, and if I'm going through it slow, I am going to check out. I'm gonna be–
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. I think I, I remember you saying that you listened to audiobooks and other things on a much, like, on a faster speed.
Paige Weber: Way faster. Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Um, and also can do another task at the same time and still take in all the information.
Jennifer Agee: That's pretty freaking cool actually.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: That's pretty cool.
Paige Weber: I wonder if part of the reason my mind makes movies in session is to keep it at the pace of the client.
Jennifer Agee: Ah, to be able to slow it down a little bit so that you're able to just not race ahead in the story.
Paige Weber: Right. So, I stay with them and I can picture the scene. And then also when I need to go back to that, and this works really good with, um, you know, emotion-focused kind of work where you're going back to your inner child, and you're, um, gonna recreate that environment because you've already pictured it with the client. So, taking them back there becomes easier.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. So, you talked a little bit about, you know, having to go and, you know, you come in with a form, there's some accommodations that need to be made. What are some good accommodations for people with dyslexia? What can you advocate for, for your kiddo or for yourself?
Paige Weber: So, first thing I wanna say is dyslexia is usually hereditary. It's very, very common. So, if you are working with a child and the parent's doing informed consent, just know there's a high probability they're gonna have dyslexia too. And forms are a nemesis for dyslexics. We're gonna miss things. We're gonna not check boxes. We're gonna skip initialing things. We're just gonna not see it.
Jennifer Agee: I'm wondering if it could look like ADHD then to somebody from the outside, of like little missed things.
Paige Weber: Yeah. So, there is actually a comorbidity rate, um, where ADHD and dyslexia are together. So, that is a common comorbidity to have both. Um, in my case, I don't. Um, in my kids' case, they do.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: So, you know, which, which one's causing the skipping of things? In my case, dyslexia. With my kids, maybe not.
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Paige Weber: So, my husband has ADHD. He, he would never miss a detail 'cause he's, um, you know, the hyper-focused, um, inattentive type. So.
Jennifer Agee: Got it.
Paige Weber: You know, what kind of, what are on the spectrum are you with ADHD, and how do forms fit into that category?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Um, as far as accommodations, since we're talking college, um, if–
Jennifer Agee: Can we talk a spectrum? Because, like, I could see a lot of people listening to this who might even have clients that come in that they have children with dyslexia, and they're not exactly sure what to. So, could, can we talk a little bit around like a spec-, the range?
Paige Weber: Range? The range.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Paige Weber: So, let's start with, um, elementary school. Okay. Here's the thing, if you're listening, you need to know what the state laws are related to dyslexia. So, the state of Missouri, for example, does not recognize dyslexia. Um.
Jennifer Agee: What?
Paige Weber: Yeah. They don't recognize it at all.
Jennifer Agee: Huh? Like that doesn't even make sense.
Paige Weber: I agree. They allow you to be a child with a specific learning disability, and that can be your educational diagnosis, but dyslexia is not recognized. Even though my kids have had clinical psychologists who has done an independent diagnosis on them, they can't deny it. So, it has to be in their IEP because I got it outside of the school district. But the school district does not have to recognize it.
Jennifer Agee: What the heck? That, that literally makes no common– well, Missouri some—sorry if you're listening—sometimes, uh, their stuff just does not make great sense to me, but okay. So, know your, know your state laws and whether or not they recognize it.
Paige Weber: Yes.
Jennifer Agee: So, recognize it as a disability or recognize it as a what?
Paige Weber: Recognize as a disability in education.
Jennifer Agee: In education, okay.
Paige Weber: Yes. So, that's the first step. What are the laws? Kansas laws are different. So, they have, um, a way, um, more lenient understanding and do recognize some forms of dyslexia, and some districts even, um, do Orton-Gillingham. So, let's talk a minute about good old Orton.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. 'Cause I've heard of, um, Orton-Gillingham and then Barton or something like that.
Paige Weber: There's a lot of fun ones out there, so–
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Gillingham, the Gillingham Method actually was created in 1925, so it has been around for a hundred years. He was the first guy to ever think about, so we think like 1887, we started to figure it out. It was not even, you know, 50 years before we had a solution. We'd already started finding ways to teach kids with dyslexia to how, how to, how to help their brains accommodate the educational system.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: So, um, and then, obviously, it went on to become the Orton-Gillingham method. It is the premier Cadillac of reading specialties. Um, I think as far as if we wanna talk about evidence-based research, they are the gurus 'cause they've had a hundred years to study it. Um, I really love Linda Mood Bell for that reason. Not, not endorsing them, but I really love their material because they actually are doing a lot with FMRI scanning and looking at the child's brain before and after testing, which is some incredible, um, internet deep dive for you to do later.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: If that's your niche, and you really wanna see the neuroscience behind reading and education, Linda Mood Bell, um, is, is definitely a leading researcher on the topic.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: I'll check it out.
Paige Weber: Yes. So, you can also find, um, private tutors that are– Like, we have a private tutor for our kids who do Orton-Gillingham method at home, even though they teach in a public school that doesn't recognize dyslexia. We just pay her privately.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: All right. So, for then, for the little kids, you can, like in an IEP or whatever, when we're asking for accommodations, tell us little kid wise, like grade school wise, what are we gonna ask for here?
Paige Weber: You're always gonna ask, ask for extra time. It costs the school nothing. It's almost always a guarantee.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: ADHD, dyslexia, aut-, they all get extra time. People with just dyslexia, here's a hint, you don't need extra time. I've never, in all of my grad school years, I had extra time on, on all of my tests, I used it on one. Like, just, you don't need extra time.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Um, the other thing you're gonna ask for is, um, a option to have the test read out loud and also to talk the text back.
Jennifer Agee: Tell me what that means, "talk the text back."
Paige Weber: So, you're gonna, just like you do with your cell phone when you're, um, texting someone. When I text you, and there's five misspellings, I didn't actually type that. I just talked into my phone, and it sent whatever it thought you said. Um.
Jennifer Agee: Oh, okay. I hear what you're saying. So, if they have an assignment that they can then, that they can then text, audio text it back or verbally give the answers, the essay, the whatever it is, instead of having to write it.
Paige Weber: Right.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: Yes. The other thing to understand, and when you get into the fourth and fifth grade, um, is they start to write, even in third, they'll write like paragraph-level work, you know, work.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Um, and that the teacher give them accommodations around punctuation and spelling. Is the content what you're looking for if the commas are not there?
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: I will not see a comma to save my life. I barely know what they look like.
Jennifer Agee: Really?
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: That's so, uh, again, because my brain works in one way and your brain works in another way, it's crazy to me because all I all I know is my own experience of how my brain perceives the world. To think that someone would literally not see a comma in the middle—'cause I'm, I love good, a good comma, just look at my writing—um, so, so like, to think someone just really doesn't see it, my brain, it, it's like hard to even conceptualize that.
Paige Weber: Yeah. So, um, you have to really encourage the child 'cause creativity is also a great strength of dyslexia. So, their ability to be creative, and, um, you know, again, that thinking outside of the box of, so I'm gonna give you an example here. So, my son who's seven, same age as your, your granddaughter, uh, had an assignment to talk about cats. And so, she said, I want you to write a paragraph with three facts about cats. So, start with the first fact that you can think of about facts, cats. He thinks for a second. And he says, cats are evil. So, she looks at him. Please don't be offended if you're a cat owner. So, she looks at him and says, but okay, so that's an opinion and I want you to state a fact. And so, he said, cats are evil, and that's a fact. That's a great example of a dyslexic brain right there. Like–
Jennifer Agee: Uhhuh.
Paige Weber: I added that it's a fact, so that makes it a fact 'cause I said it's a fact.
Jennifer Agee: Right?
Paige Weber: Um, so, that's what I mean by, and so some people would see that as your kid is being defiant. Your kid's not listening to the assignment. Your kid doesn't know the difference between a fact and, you know, an opinion. Because that's what, that's what was presented to me was, your son doesn't know the difference between a fact and opinion. And I said, well, it might be because I grew up around cats. I'm highly allergic, so my parents, you know, I was a little Albert experiment, right? So, cats are evil. Stay away from them because I would end up in the hospital. So, I always made jokes that cats were evil and didn't think about my kids like taking it literally.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: So, I said that one's, that was a hundred percent on me. I'm so sorry.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Paige Weber: Because we don't allow cats anywhere near our family because half of my family is, we're allergic, my husband and I both. So, that's a great example right there of like dyslexia gone wrong.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Okay. So, um, so those are a few accommodations. Are there any any other big ones to think about?
Paige Weber: Um, you know, I think it really has to be individualized to the child. Um, one thing I would recommend is, in math, they make what's called a rolling stamp. Um, and it literally is just that it rolls lines and creates grid boxes to help people with long division have lines, um, that can help them be able to, uh, keep their numbers in the right place. So–
Jennifer Agee: Cool. I didn't know that existed.
Paige Weber: Yeah. And sometimes with dyslexia, dysgraphia comes with it. Um, you know, it's like the perks-reward system.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: You get dyslexia. Dysgraphia is a writing disorder. Um, and so, sometimes when they're reversing their letters and stuff, like, well, is it dyslexia? Is it dysgraphia? Um, dysgraphia is also really hard to write. And so, whenever you have a child with dyslexia, you always wanna make sure that you've tested for dysgraphia and dyscalculia as well.
Jennifer Agee: I don't know what dyscalculia is.
Paige Weber: It's, it's a dyslexic form of math.
Jennifer Agee: Oh.
Paige Weber: So, you're converting numbers and symbols, and, uh, none of it looks right on the page.
Jennifer Agee: Mm. I'm learning stuff today. This is so cool. Okay.
Paige Weber: There's all kinds of neurodiverse words out there. You could go on for days.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, no kidding. So, so as your, like, as you progress, um, and get a little older going through school and into high school, college age, what are some other ways, um, that would be helpful?
Paige Weber: Here's where it gets tricky when you turn 18. If mom or dad have been your primary advocate, um, they have limited ability to do things in college. So, you have to be the one to step up and do that. Um, and it, it can be very frustrating to college, uh, accommodations offices if mom or dad are just in there all the time.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: So, making sure, and so I'm gonna say this real simple. This is key for you, Jennifer, with your granddaughter. Teach her now that the best advocate in her entire life is her.
Jennifer Agee: Yes.
Paige Weber: If there is one takeaway, teach them now that the best advocate they will ever have in life is themselves, and they are worth being advocated for.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, just start empowering them from the time they're little to just ask for what they need, to speak up when something doesn't make sense or something's not right, and not to rely just on parents to do that, that there's nothing wrong with letting people know that you need something that's different.
Paige Weber: And ask them, what would make this assignment easier for you?
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: What, what would help you? Um, so in college, you're gonna ask for similar accommodations of extra time. You can have the accommodation of extra time to turn in assignments. Um, a lot of, um, people will tell you that it usually doesn't help people with accommodations. And so, there's lots of mixed opinions on that. If you have good executive function and planning and you just need extra time because you have other things going on, that's fine, but can also just create a delay of something you're already dreading. And then you really have just whittled away the time and not used it, as opposed to, I actually was working on it this whole time, I was just really slow.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: So, thinking about why you need that accommodation before you just jump on and ask for it.
Jennifer Agee: Okay.
Paige Weber: If you're taking large tests like the National Counselor Exam, uh, I, I, I would encourage people to ask for the moon and take what you need, so I had extra time for the test. I didn't use it. Um, talk to text. Um, for one of my exams I had a human reader. I recommend a human reader if it's an option. Um.
Jennifer Agee: That, so that's literally just another human that reads the test out loud to you?
Paige Weber: Yes. And she looked at me like I was crazy and was like, I would like you to read every question as quickly as you can twice through. Do not read the answers. I was like, I'm not illiterate.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: I just, it's too many words on a page. And then my A and my B columns, like A, B, and C are going to mix around in my head the further I get in the test. So, I need you to read the question twice, and let me look. And then if the question answers are really long, I'm gonna have you read them, but I do better if I can just have the question memorized before I answer, even look at the answers.
Jennifer Agee: And that makes sense because then your brain is saving its energy of having to accommodate and, and hype, you know, like really, really focus in for the shorter periods of time.
Paige Weber: Mm-hmm. So, um, that would be one thing I'd really recommend. Get to know the disability offices and find out what services they offer. Uh, the statistics on graduating college for dyslexia is low. I'll be honest. And the average person with dyslexia takes six years to graduate, um, instead of the typical four. Um, I, I took four and a half. Um, so it kind of depends on the person and what they need. Um, but I'll tell you, from my undergrad, with no accommodations, to my grad, graduate degree, with accommodations, my GPA was substantially different.
Jennifer Agee: Really? Okay.
Paige Weber: Yeah, it was substantially different. Um, and a lot of that, I would say it went up six points.
Jennifer Agee: Oh, wow.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Wow. Okay.
Paige Weber: And I did well in my undergrad. I still actually graduated with honors, but barely. And I know that it's because I just memorize stuff, so I can still remember lectures from middle school.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah.
Paige Weber: I just don't forget things easily if they're verbally spoken, and it's interesting.
Jennifer Agee: I could see how, so if we kind of now take, take a quick little veer to mental health and just mood and emotion and dyslexia, I could see how if you don't forget things easily, that that could also work for you and work against you sometimes.
Paige Weber: Yeah. So, that was interesting too, when I was doing a little bit more of a deep dive, just preparing for this, I did not see any quick correlations. It's like, it usually causes depression. It usually causes, um, anxiety. That wasn't, um, as prevalent as usually people with dyslexia are very intelligent, they're artistic, they're creative. Um, but they, those were way more prominent thoughts on it, which I thought was really interesting.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. Again, that goes back to being an entrepreneur, 'cause you can be a big picture thinker, you can be a hands-on doer, and not necessarily get lost in the weeds of having to write the compliance reports and all of that stuff that goes along with the running of the business. You hire people for that.
Paige Weber: Yes. Yeah. And I, so, you know, as an entrepreneur, myself, that's just starting a private practice and moving in that world, I have a very lovely lawyer who reads through all of my contracts. Um, and she just like, I don't, I don't sign anything that she hasn't read.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I mean, that's smart 'cause you've gotta protect yourself.
Paige Weber: Yeah.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Um, and when it's forms and things like that, I usually make my husband, 'cause you have kids with disability and you don't like forms, that's a problem because–
Jennifer Agee: Right.
Paige Weber: Of 'em.
Jennifer Agee: So, my, my daughter-in-law asked me how does she even start getting an IEP for our granddaughter? And my first thought was to talk to, like, the school counselor or the school social worker, but is that the right place to start?
Paige Weber: Uh, always start in writing. So, start with an email, start with a letter, um, because everything in the school system is timestamped. We can do a whole podcast just on disability advocacy. That's a whole 'nother. Yeah. There's a whole 'nother topic, but everything in the school system is timestamped. So, the day they get that request, it's a request for an IEP assessment, they have 30 days to respond. Okay, we got your letter and we're setting up an assessment. They have 30 days to set up the assessment. Once they've set up the assessment, they have 30 or 60 days to then get, uh, a like a meeting on the books that sees if they qualify for an IEP. Once they decide you've qualified for an IEP, then you have another waiting period until you can actually have an IEP meeting.
Jennifer Agee: Holy crap. That sounds like way too long of a process for a little kid that's gonna be halfway through a school year and feeling like they're failing.
Paige Weber: So, getting a 504 plan for someone who just has dyslexia with no other accommodation issues is a lot more simple. So, schools tend to start with a 504 plan if there's not a need for an IEP meeting. So, once you get into the weeds about what she actually needs, and you start looking at the difference between a 504 versus an IEP–
Jennifer Agee: What's the difference?
Paige Weber: So, a 504 are just straight-up accommodations, and IEP are goals that are created with the intent of doing something different to create statistical data proven change. That's a simplified version.
Jennifer Agee: That doesn't sound simplified at all. That sounded really complicated actually.
Paige Weber: Yeah. So, uh, for your daughter, daughter-in-law?
Jennifer Agee: Daughter-in-law, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Daughter-in-law. There is, um, a gentleman named Peter Wright. Um, and he has a, I don't know, a business called Wrights Law. Um, and he is, he has dyslexia. He's a lawyer, a disability lawyer, and he does one-day trainings on how to advocate for, uh, your child through the IEP process. And he has, even behind me, I have probably five or six of his books, um, on the process of IEP, how to do an IEP, what to ask for, how to request it, how to go about building a relationship with the school district. Um, it's a whole process. There's a lot of pieces of that puzzle.
Jennifer Agee: It should not be so freaking hard to get your kid help. I mean, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but, um, woo. That sounds like a lot, and it sounds like, I think, you know, my, my daughter-in-law and my son, they are on it. They're on it like white on rice, right?
Paige Weber: Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Agee: You know, they're, the school noticed something. They immediately got her scheduled. They're talking to the school. They're doing all the things. And I can't even begin to imagine if you happen to be raised in a family that didn't have parents who either knew how to advocate for you, or didn't have the motivation to advocate for you, or a myriad of other things, how much harder life would be.
Paige Weber: So, there's one study that's suggested statistically, and I think a high number, but 70% of juvenile delinquents have dyslexia.
Jennifer Agee: Hmm. But that makes sense because if, if it's not known that that's what's going on until you're in the system already, and you've been told, you know, throughout your childhood that you're not smart or you're this or you're that, and you're kind of put to the fringe of things. Yeah, of course, you're far more likely to act out or– Yeah. That's sad.
Paige Weber: So, dyslexics, oftentimes, especially that group that moves into, you know, entrepreneurship and stuff, they, um, they're usually very hardworking. And so, for me, for example, through grad school, I would send my first, so if I'm gonna write a 10-page paper, I'm gonna sit down for four hours, and I'm just gonna write it straight. I'm not gonna do an outline. I just, my brain works that way. I can knock that puppy out. I've got it. Everything's right in front of me, I know exactly what I need to do.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Then I'm gonna send it to the accommodations office, and they're gonna get whatever undergrad English major they can find to edit my work.
Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.
Paige Weber: Then they're gonna send it back to me with these notes over to the side of what I need to fix. That's a nightmare.
Jennifer Agee: Sure.
Paige Weber: I have to read the note, understand the note, then I have to try to write it in my paper, and not screw it up, which is a disaster. So, then I've, I've done that, and I've tried not to screw it up. Then I'm gonna send it to another professional editor. I'm gonna have them do it again. They're also gonna put their notes to the side, and then I'm gonna have to try to, like, not mess it up again. And then I'm gonna put it in Grammarly and see what the computer still thinks I've screwed up.
Jennifer Agee: Oh gee. Wow.
Paige Weber: Almost every paper I write, and people are like, why are you doing that paper two weeks ahead of time? And I'm like, because I need 10 days for editing.
Jennifer Agee: Yeah, and that's where things like extra time can come into play. Paige, I have learned so much today, and this has been such a helpful place to start, and I really appreciate your time, and I appreciate you sharing what the experience for you and your family has been like too, because I think, not just for me, but I think a lot of people listening to this are going to, you know, go take this test online, or they're going to just start somewhere in either understanding better or advocating better for themselves or the ones that they, they love or they come in contact with. So, um, again, thank you so much for being on. How can people connect with you?
Paige Weber: So, uh, my website's launching ideally in the next week, so kccounselinggroup.com. Um, or you can email me at paige@kccounselinggroup.com. It's P A I G E at K, the letter, C, the letter, counseling.com.
Jennifer Agee: Perfect. Thank you again so much. And if you'd like to connect more with me or the podcast, counselingcommunity.com. Get out there everyone and live your best dang life.