Episode 5: Challenging Imposter Syndrome - Eating the Shit Sandwich featuring Jackie Flynn

During this episode, I talk with Jackie Flynn (she/her), EdS, LMHC-S, RPT about challenging imposter syndrome and self-doubt. Jackie shares with the listener the mindset shifts that are needed to challenge growth and build confidence. 

Jackie Flynn is an experienced Certified EMDR therapist and an EMDRIA Approved Consultant, Approved Provider for the Association for Play Therapy, EMDRIA Approved Advanced trainer as well as an education consultant, author and internationally known speaker.

TOPICS IN THIS EPISODE:

·       Value of therapeutic relationship

·       Challenging our self-limitations and doubts

·       Imposter Syndrome – the value it can have

·       Eating the “shit sandwich”

·       Unmasking your authenticity

·       Permission to expand beyond “butt in the seat” therapy

OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:

·       Jackie’s website

·       Jennifer Agee coaching page

·       Counseling Community Facebook community

·       Counseling Community Instagram

·       Alaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023

·       Cabo, Mexico: Dreamer’s Retreat for Entrepreneurial Therapists October 6-8, 2022

Transcript

Jennifer Agee: Hello. Hello, and welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I am your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. With me today is Jackie Flynn. She is a licensed mental health counselor, a clinical supervisor. She's a registered play therapist. She's EMDRIA approved consultant. She also does some amazing stuff. She does trainings on the beach. She runs the annual, or is a part of the annual innovative child therapy symposium, the play therapy community podcast, and a part of the annual neuroscience and play therapy summit that's on the beach, and all-around awesome human being. So Jackie, welcome to the show.

Jackie Flynn: Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. Thanks for saying all those nice things. I am so happy to be here with you, Jennifer. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I'm glad you're going to be here too. And for listeners who might not know, I'm putting together an Alaskan cruise. That Jackie is actually a co-trainer on, for Experiential Techniques for Therapists. So, if you want to look, go on a cruise, you want a tax write off and you want to spend time with Jackie and I learning some experiential techniques, you can sign up for that on the website. But Jackie, let's get started. What is it that you wish you learned in grad school? 

Jackie Flynn: I would say there's two things, so I'm going to say them in order. Um, the first thing is just the deep importance of the therapeutic relationship. And I did hear that throughout grad school, but I didn't deeply learn it. And now that I'm learning more about the, um, autonomic nervous system and how we connect as human beings, how we feel safe and connected to lean into that therapy experience and how safety and connection can be the therapy is what Dr. Stephen Porges the creator of polyvagal theory tells us, um, I really understand on a much greater level the importance of the therapeutic relationship. So in the beginning I felt like I started off my work as a therapist more focused on what type of therapy to learn to provide, uh, what techniques I needed, get this workbook, get that. And it's not so much of what you do as much as who you are, like, who, how connected are you with this other human being that you're in this very sacred space with? So that's the first one is the value of the therapeutic relationship, and then, at a distance second, is documentation. I don't feel like I had a real good grasp on the magnitude of documentation. Oh. And how to start a private practice — and I'm probably gonna list a whole thing, a whole list.

Jennifer Agee: That's why I've got a whole podcast. 

Jackie Flynn: But documentation is something that, I feel like I have developed many skills over time, but it really didn't get it in grad school, so therapeutic relationship and documentation. 

Jennifer Agee: Yep. Those are definitely things that, uh, are important to pay attention to that aren't necessarily emphasized enough or spoken about in more of a, a grand scheme of things kind of approach instead of the myopic, what does it actually look like day to day to be doing that work? But Jackie, you are also a phenomenal entrepreneur. You, you and I are both entrepreneurial women. We're go-getters. You do some kick-butt stuff. Tell me what you wish you had understood more about being an entrepreneur and a business owner.

Jackie Flynn: Girl, I fill it in my bones. I wake up in the middle of the night, but these ideas, um, so one of my big things you mentioned at the Innovative Child Therapy Symposium, just running these conferences online, and now I've recently gotten to the in-person. Um, so the conference, innovative Child Therapy Symposium, there was, there's a lot of business components to it, um, marketing, organization thinks of that nature, but what's really at the core of it is good, solid — because it might, my market is really, um, helping out therapists — so making sure I have good, solid, uh, educational components. So being able to seek out these teachers, that are also clinicians that can help, um, the people that, you know, consume my, um, whether it's my digital courses or read my books and buy my books or, um, attend the conferences, they can really help them to be better clinicians. So, in grad school — um, and I went to an amazing program at university of central Florida in Orlando, Florida; it was fantastic — but, no training on how to start a private practice, nothing from my experience. Um, I started off in the school counseling program. So, I learned that through, you know, just kind of gathering information externally about how to start a business, and then there's so many other elements, and this is when I created the How to Start a Private Play Therapy Practice digital course for people that are like in a similar position. So that I feel like I didn't, um, I knew that therapy piece. I know better now, but I didn't know the business aspects of it. So juggling all of that right out the gate is a, it's a tall order, but I think what is probably more important than the actual, what do you do and how do you set up these businesses, and whether it's writing a book, creating a course, or whatever, starting a podcast, it's, it's your own learn limitations, your own, kind of self-perception of like whether you're capable, whether you're worthy, whether you're good enough. All of these messages that sometimes were, um, ingrained early on in childhood, they just pop up and rear their head at like two in the morning, like who am I to start a private practice? Who am I going to get to read a book? How am I going to consult with parents, because my child's doing the same thing the parents they are coming to me are doing? So, I, I didn't, in grad school, get that piece. So, I love that you have this podcast so people can explore that and maybe do some work around that when it's necessary.

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. I think this idea that you're alluding to is imposter syndrome, right? We know that we have some skills. I mean, we probably have some student loan debt to prove that, you know, but we've done some education around it, and we've done continuing education. We have some clients, but that internal doubt that comes, those little whispers in the ear that say, nobody's going to show up, you're not enough, you don't know what you're talking about in the room. And I've literally had a session — now, this was at this point, I was probably a therapist for 18 years; I've got great skills — I remember a client talking to me about what was going on and sharing, and I thought, man, you should really see somebody about that. I remember thinking that in this session, and I cracked up. I was like, Jennifer, you are the expert in the room here, like get together woman. But even after all these years, sometimes it creeps in, and I think, yeah, that's a good question, who should, who should we talk to about that?

Jackie Flynn: Yeah. They're like real-life problems that just kind of pop in right there with this. That imposter syndrome, though, I've, I've gotten coaching on it cause I felt. It feels like a monster inside. So I reached out to Ernesto, many people listening probably know Ernesto, he's brilliant. And also Lisa Dion. And, uh, I would say Ernesto's name, but I always like, mispronounce it like, Sickamondo or something.

Jennifer Agee: Segismundo. Yeah. 

Jackie Flynn: Yeah. Always mispronounce, everybody knows Ernesto, though, it's like Madonna or, you know, one, one name and you know who you're talking about. So, Ernesto helped me out and also Lisa Dion, in, um, one thing that I heard from Lisa Dion that really stuck is: there's value in that imposter syndrome. There's value in not feeling like you know it all, because this urge, this hunger, this eagerness to stretch out your knowledge base to be able to venture into things that aren't comfortable. And that's where growth happens. So when I feel it — and I still feel it; doesn't go away — when I feel it, and it's not necessarily my negative cognitions, it's not like that I'm not good enough or I'm not worthy or I'm not capable of showing up, it's more of like a, whoa, this is new to me. This is kind of scary. And, here I am doing this something that is taking a lot of courage, and I'm not 100% sure that I know all of the, the parts and the pieces and how this works. There's value into, in the discomfort, but where I feel like successful entrepreneurs, and ever how you define success, where they really kind of stand out is they embrace that discomfort, and they move forward anyway. I think, yeah, like the, um, it was, um, Elizabeth Gilbert in that movie, Eat, Pray, Love, she's like — not the movie. It was I believe in a Marie Forleo video or something about eat the shit sandwich. Can I say shit? 

Jennifer Agee: Yes, you can. It's literally in the title of the podcast. 

Jackie Flynn: Oh, that's right. That's right. So, it's like eating the shit sandwich, like you have all kinds of good stuff that comes with it. Just like this Alaskan cruise, it's going to be amazing. Oh my gosh, amazing. I can't wait. But there's some shit sandwich that comes with that. There's some, what do I do? How am I going to navigate this? And who am I going to call there? And there's some risks. I'm going to give this lady my credit card, and I'm going to hope that this part pans out. You know, so there's, there's that capacity to eat the shit sandwich, I feel like is a big part of the success story. 

Jennifer Agee: I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's good for listeners to understand that although the imposter syndrome, those self-doubty kinds of things, they don't really go away because we're continuing to take risks. They ebb and flow and change. Right in the beginning of our career, it's more about who we are in the room with clients. And as time goes on and we expand the different areas we're involved in or whatever, there's still risk involved. And any time there's risk, there's a little bit of that fear of what if I fail, what if I put myself out there and people see that it wasn't successful, and how, you know, how is that going to affect my reputation? I don't know a single entrepreneur who plans something and doesn't immediately have that, holy crap, maybe I should just take it back moment.

Jackie Flynn: Girl, yeah, it's normal. It's like vulnerability hang up and it happens too, so I think if we just didn't know what's going to happen, like I remember as intern, I like marketed the heck out of this grief group. One person showed up, and it was a three-hour group, and it was me and that one person. She had a heck of a three-hour session. But then, you know, I invite people on my podcast, and then, you know, they, they don't return, but then I still have the courage to... I remember the first time I invited like a, a big name on my podcast, Temple Grandin. I literally pushed, uh, she didn't even have like a web, um, an email address. I found it on her site. And then I pushed submit and I was like, oh dear, who am I to email Temple Grandin and asked her to have a conversation with me? And then she replied back. So there's this balance of be okay with rejection. That Amazon review that's like a two, three star. It's okay. You're not for everybody. You're not body and just kind of embrace it, but get up and keep going.

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. And I think that idea of you're not for everyone, the flip side of that is I'm glad I'm not for everyone because that means I'm being authentically me when I'm with people. Because if everyone thought I was for them, I was everybody's cup of tea, that means I am masking the crap out of myself in order to meet others expectations of what I think they want from me, instead of just being who I am. 

Jackie Flynn: Oh, this is so true. The word glitter comes to mind. Okay. So, I'm a play therapist, and not, I used to like glitter, I don't like it now. To be completely authentic, there's little lowercase-t trauma associated with glitter. But I remember had glitter on my couch, and then I had this couples client come in, and they were dressed pretty nicely. And, they weren't happy with the little spots of glitter. And I remember, um, I remember just being so upset. Like I can't believe, you know, beat myself up, I can't believe I had glitter on the couch, but then I thought, gosh, I've been working with children all day, and there's glitter on my couch. I'm just a glitter on my couch type of person. And I learned to embrace that for a little bit, until I decided I didn't like glitter. But, um, to not be who you are, you burn out. You decide, hey, I don't like this. You might be able to white knuckle it for a while and say, oh yeah, I could do this, or I like this, but then over time, the truth comes out.

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, I think that's where therapists get themselves into trouble. And I do not have the statistics off the top of my head, but the rate of longevity in this career in private practice is actually pretty low. And I think a large part of that is because therapists fail to give themselves permission... 

Jackie Flynn: Yeah. 

Jennifer Agee: To expand, grow, reclaim this new space of authenticity, as we are growing, evolving, and changing, and saying, what I did before doesn't really fit who I am now. I need to Etch A Sketch that and come, come back to the drawing board. And what is it that I actually like to do? How can I create that now in my business so that I can continue to serve in my calling, because a lot of us feel it that this is a calling or it's an alignment with our value system and our passions, but I would encourage you if you're feeling stuck or you're feeling like you're having thoughts of man, is there anything else I can do other than this? Maybe it is time for you to have a season to step away. I mean, who am I to say, but it's also possible that you've not given yourself permission to do something other than butt-in-the-seat therapy. What else can you do? 

Jackie Flynn: Yes. Oh my goodness, I invite some people on like my symposiums and my podcasts that are literally some of the most brilliant people in the world and they're nervous or anxious. I go, oh, I hope that was good enough. I'm like, what, of course it's good enough. You're like the, one of the smartest people I know. But they don't have that self-belief in them. I do a lot of EMDR sessions with, um, business professionals, and what I've noticed, um, there's like a distinct difference between someone that kind of goes past that imposter syndrome and some people that just get stuck, and it’s that being able to lean into the discomfort. So, when I do my EMDR sessions that stands for eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing, we identify like what the worst part of the situation is, is part of it, but then that negative thought about yourself that goes with it. And a lot of times it is the, um, I'm not good enough, and I'm not worthy, and sometimes I don't matter. That'll leave you right in your chair. That'll leave that amazing book in your head and not out there in the world. That will leave that Incredible digital course that you could just teach the heck out of and grow your impact just exponentially and leave it undone. Because it's, the I'm not worthy, I'm not capable and good enough, I have to be perfect. If we all waited until we had something perfect, there'd be nothing out there. So what I noticed, like, as people start to reprocess and, kind of, uh, come up with, I am good enough, or I can make mistakes. That's when they're able to grow. That none of us are perfect. In fact, the people that are growing the most, they have the most imperfections. I think about that Theodore Roosevelt quote that Brené Brown kind of brought to like the present so beautifully the "Man in the Arena," like, um... 

Jennifer Agee: That's my favorite quote. Oh, it has been for a long time. So yeah, I'll give Brené credit for bringing it up, but girl, I've liked it a long time. And what I love about it is that the line, particularly, that talks about how your face is just mired in mud, like, but you're going for it, you're, you're working, you're spinning yourself for a worthy cause. Like I love... 

Jackie Flynn: Yeah. I love it all. It's the, um, the, um, whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short, uh, time and time again. Girl, I will own that. 

Jennifer Agee: Same, same. Yeah. I've had some massive whips, like I swung and I missed. But the thing is, people, we, we might tell our clients this, but we have to remember that ourselves as clinicians and as business owners, that growth doesn't happen typically when we're comfortable. We're not motivated to grow in times of comfort. And we don't want to be uncomfortable all the time. I mean, life is an ebb and a flow, right? We have seasons where we're in the flow, things are really good. Then something doesn't quite feel right anymore. It's not quite comfortable. I'm starting to get burned out. We get uncomfortable. And then using that instead of saying that must mean I'm in the wrong calling, or what... I mean, why don't you be reflective and say, okay, maybe it's time to grow and evolve, or just switch paths? And that's okay. Discomfort brings growth. It's something to lean into, not shy away from. 

Jackie Flynn: So true. Easier said than done sometimes. Like I, um, I'm writing a book, and I reached out to Lisa Dion for some coaching on this too. I think that's a difference too. When we, we verbalize this and we share this kind of, I think of it as like the real, this is the true, like, this is a real deal. I'm going to tell you this ugly part about me. Like, I've been trying to write this book for five years, and I feel like I failed myself. But when you share it with someone and you, they kind of bring that connection and that understanding that empathy, somehow some way kind of that togetherness, that connectedness with somebody else, and you're sharing your dreams makes a big difference. So, again my, my book has started, but I do, I remember just sitting at the computer just frozen, immobilized. What we know about like the autonomic nervous system, I was like in the dorsal vagal state, stuck. Like for my book, I like even mess up my words when I'm talking. How am I going to write a book? I'm not some whatever. And it turns out I'm pretty good at writing. 

Jennifer Agee: That's awesome. Well, and I think it was Stephen King who said, you set out to write a first draft. You don't set out to write, you know, the final draft. You just start putting words on paper. I have two books that I have also — Jackie and I were going to hold each other accountable, and we both ethically whiffed on it miserably in the beginning — but yeah, I've had two books that I, um, have started and not finished, and it's fine. You know, there's different seasons of life where you have energy for different things. But, um, one of the things you, you alluded to was outside coaching. And I'll tell you the times that I'm really trying something new, not just a change of treatment modality or something, but I'm really trying to do something different in business, I've gotten outside coaching because it helps me get where I want to go faster. It provides outside accountability for the change because I'm paying good money to sit with someone who's going to hold me accountable. Because there's some brain research that shows that when we actually say publicly what our goals are, that sometimes our brain will already have the reward like it's happened and it decreases our motivation. So speaking with a coach or somebody in a smaller, more intimate space, until you're ready to launch that to the world to keep your motivation up, is sometimes a good idea. I mean, everybody's process is different, but there's very interesting research on that.

Jackie Flynn: I didn't even think about it like that. I don't know if you remember or not, but that's how I met you. I, um, I was definitely starting my kind of venture into these in-person conferences, which are not for the weak. 

Jennifer Agee: No, they're not for the weak. 

Jackie Flynn: A lot. So, and I know you were good at so many things, or actually, Ernesto told me about you. And so reached out, and one hour, literally one hour with you, I met with Dora Henderson, my co-host for the Neuroscience of Play Therapy. That one hour I pulled on that knowledge, and I had process, I knew what to ask the people at the hotel, I knew what to put on the marketing. I felt so empowered, and it was like there was a before and after. I was no longer like, oh, I hope this goes well. I was like, okay, this is what's going to happen. Now, if there's a problem here, we're just kind of do this and, you know, have our problem-solving process in place. Like, what is a problem? What have you tried? What else you could try and take the next step? And would you know we did that conference and it was like an incredible success. We're planning our second one. And I don't know if I could have done that without that hour of coaching with you, because for one, like why recreate the wheel, right? And I already put it out there. I'm not going to, I mean, it's not cheap, but it made its money back way more than I mean... It's worth it, worth it, worth it. It was incredible. I know this isn't like a promo for your coaching, but that is how I know you. 

Jennifer Agee: I mean, but that's true. That's true. Yeah. It's all fun and games until you have to lay your credit card down, right? For hosting these, these bigger events, I think sometimes when you go to the events, um, you, you kind of look at the people who are running them and, and I've had people that I've coached say, say things to me like, well, I'm, I'm not like you or so-and-so or so-and-so. And I think, hey, we all get scared shitless to right before we hand over our credit card and hope it works out. Like, you're just like us and it's going to be okay. 

Jackie Flynn: Oh my goodness, yes. Although that payment that I made you was like, I was happy to make that payment. I was like, thank God, now I know some things. But when you give it to like go for whomever, whether it's the platform that you're going to host your digital course on, whether it's the hotel that you're going to hold a conference on, whether it's the landlord that you're opening up your new, private practice and you're getting space and you're like, please, please let this work out, please. It's scary. Expect it to not be scary is scary in itself. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. So what are some of the things that you do to combat that? Because I think of course the more you have success in a certain area, the more confident you are, and that decreases naturally, but you, as an entrepreneurial woman, you have started a lot of different ventures. So what are some of the tips and tricks for combating that imposter syndrome, that holy crapped-ness, that comes with doing new things? I'd love to hear it. 

Jackie Flynn: So there's three things. And my first one is movement. Like even, um, especially when COVID happened — this makes me sound like a goof, but this is the real me — like in between sessions, I just get on my bicycle on our right around the block as fast as I can. There's that bilateral stimulation. What we know about the body is, um, that felt sense of, it's the sympathetic, um, state of the autonomic nervous system. It actually is our vagus nerve sending information that, um, around our organs that kind of squeezes and it constricts, and it's like that fight or flight. When we move, we're able to process through that energy, that stored energy, and that regulates us. So movement, I get up and I go to the beach, I really get out in nature. Movement outside, I can't do it without it. That's literally essential. And then the second one is social engagement. When I get stuck, I reach out to some of my friends that don't shut me down. You know who they are. You know who, the people that you're like, girl, I'm getting ready to spend $3,000 at this hotel, and I don't know if anybody's going to sign up for this thing, and I'm going to do this thing that nobody's ever done before, what do you think? Oh, wow. They cheer you on. 

Jennifer Agee: And my friends will say, hey, if no one shows up, you let us know. We'll, we'll take the week off work. We'll have a vacation, so then I'm like, yeah, either way, it's a win-win. 

Jackie Flynn: Yeah, let's get a bottle of wine. Yeah. Those friends that, those friends that when you're really successful and you get that speech booked, or, um, you're writing that book, or you make– it's like a change my session fee, and you tell somebody about it, the friends that cheer you on, surround yourself by some, you don't need a lot of them. But 1 to 3 of those. So first it's the movement, second is the social engagement, supportive people, and the third one is meditation. So it's like the opposite, but I'm, I wonder sometimes. For a long time, I was like, do I have ADHD? Cause I'm like so distracted. And I remember Ernesto like put a post on Facebook — I love his posts; he's so funny — but um, about all these different ideas in his head. That's the way mine is, but I think that's part of being like an entrepreneur. Like you could literally be in a line at the grocery store, and it's like, oh, I want to do that, oh, that, and it's just from just having a moment still. 

Jennifer Agee: We see opportunity everywhere. 

Jackie Flynn: Everywhere, like at any given time, in the shower, when we're asleep, and we pop awake, out when we're at a, um, at church. I mean, it's crazy. It's like everywhere. So I need to calm that party in my head sometimes. Sometimes I need to turn down the volume. So, I like the Calm app because I think it's tailored towards people, at least this is what I tell myself, towards people that are very active-minded because it doesn't require you to be some like, little, um, like a, a guru on top of a mountain meditating very still. They walk you through the meditation in a way that's doable that I literally crave every day. A, I listen to music in the morning, get up early in the night. I use that Calm app every day. So movement throughout the day, and then, periodically, I reach out to my friends that are supportive, and the third thing is, um, meditating, the mindfulness, meditation, whatever that kind of looks like for whoever's listening.

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, that's, that's very similar to my process as well. Again, um, my brain is always thinking of ideas. I've said it in this podcast before, but if you didn't catch that episode, I have an Excel spreadsheet because I am a super organized in my brain and literally super organized, um, therapist entrepreneur. So I have an Excel spreadsheet called business ideas. There's different tabs at the bottom. And inside each tab, I get to brain dump all of the different ideas I have because everything isn't for now and it immediately, but then my brain can release it going, okay, so when we have time for... Like, this podcast, I have had 62 ideas of topics I wanted to talk about for three years that I've been adding to, but it wasn't the right time. I was focusing on the retreats. I was focusing on, you know, having gran-, I had grandkids and little ones around for a while again. And so I just needed to not be in that space, but now that I'm ready, I've already actually done a lot of the work. So I'll get movement, I get things out. I, you know, there's some activity involved. And then people who know me well will know, I am about to unleash a new thing when I get quiet. So, what happens is my brain is bubbling with thoughts and ideas, and behind the scenes, I'm working and, cause I do strategic business planning. Like I love that stuff. All the nerdy stuff that a lot of therapists don't like, I really like that stuff. Like I want you to learn how to have an excellent retirement and things like that, but I will get very quiet because my brain is, it's in processing mode. It's processing. It's planning. I'm going into the strategic part of my brain that says, in what order should this unfold so that it then grows into one of the other ideas that I have on my list? So I get very quiet and still right before an idea launches because my brain is in strategic planning mode.

Jackie Flynn: Man, that makes me think of like a tsunami before it comes up to water, pulls back. Girl, I'm the opposite of organized. This is my today to-do lists. I do that every day. Like, I think I need to schedule some more coaching with you. 

Jennifer Agee: You know, we all have our process, and as long as you have some of the systems in place that help that work, who gives a rip? You know, like we've all got our own way of doing things, and that's cool, but yeah, people who know me well, if I get quiet or you don't see me on social media for a little bit, you can bet that something's about to be released, because I, I've pulled back like the tsunami to get still before I unleash an idea onto the world. 

Jackie Flynn: The calm before the Jennifer storm. Storm of amazingness. Those retreats that you do, as everything you do is amazing. I'm like really, like, impressed by you. So, I'm excited about this Alaskan cruise. It's going to be fun. 

Jennifer Agee: Me too. And, you know, I guess I'm at the point in my career where I, I don't have little kids at home anymore. My kids are raised; they're married. I'm, I'm financially stable. Like in the, I don't have college tuition coming out or anything where I have these big, like, to do, like must produce kinds of feelings under the surface. And this season is playfulness. It's fun. It's, I'm not really doing it unless I want to. And that doesn't mean I don't need to pay the mortgage because I do. But it gives you a different level of freedom and so different life stages require different things of you, but I am having a hell of a good time in this stage doing all the stuff that and creating things that I myself want.

Jackie Flynn: And that isn't really possible if you keep your butt in the chair. It takes that discomfort. It's worth it. It's worth... 

Jennifer Agee: Totally worth it. Jackie, thank you for coming on today. How can people connect with you? Other than coming to Alaska with us, counselingcommunity.com, the retreat is on there. You want to be there. I promise you, but how can people connect with you?

Jackie Flynn: Oh my gosh, it's going to be fun. Now, I'm going to have to bring my prefrontal cortex, cause I felt [INAUDIBLE] here that, uh, oh, I have a big Facebook group that, um, I share like everything coming out right now at the time of this recording, I'm getting my website redone, but that's playtherapycommunity.com, and, um, jackieflynnconsulting.com is where I do my EMDR consultations for EMDRIA, um, approved consultation. If you want to get certified or hone your skills, if you're EMDR trained. Um, also, I'm a, uh, play therapy, um, continuing education provider proof through the Association for Play Therapy. So, you can find that all at playtherapycommunity.com or jackieflynnconsulting.com. And, um, probably the best place to find me, because I'm there frequently, is in, um, the Facebook group, not the page, but the Facebook group it's called Play Therapy Community. There's such amazing people in there, like four at the time, this recording 14,000 people from around the world. And they are so generous and kind and loving, some of the best people. There's educators in there too, and, um, some occupational therapists, speech therapists, but I really... That's where I distribute like anything that I, um, have going on, I put there. And then I have a podcast called Play Therapy Community. 

Jennifer Agee: Awesome. And I will put the links below for anyone. Thank you all for listening today. If you want to connect more with me or the podcast or the retreats, counselingcommunity.com. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, and the Tick-Tock. Get out there and live your best dang life.