Episode 31: Boundaries You Need to Survive the Holidays featuring Yael Shuman

Yael Shuman, LMFT, EMDR trained, AAMFT Approved Supervisor and I have an open and honest conversation about creating and holding healthy boundaries with your family over the holidays. We all know the holiday season can be both joyful and stressful. Yael and I share our best tips to survive and thrive this holiday season! 

Yael is a Psychotherapist and is the creator of Equipt Emotional Agility Training. Healthy boundaries are hard to establish with family members. In Yael’s Equipt Emotional Agility Training she explains how to create healthy boundaries with others. On her website, you will find a Boundaries Basket, Trauma Preparedness Training, Agility Trauma Training and Emotional Agility Trauma Training links. 

OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:

• Yael’s website
• Counseling Community TikTok
• Jennifer Agee coaching page
• Counseling Community Facebook community
• Counseling Community Instagram
• Alaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023

Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023

Transcript

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Jennifer Agee: Hello. Hello. And welcome to Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School. I am your host, Jennifer Agee, licensed clinical professional counselor. With me today is Yael Schumann. She's a psychotherapist and the creator of Equipped Emotional Agility Training. Welcome to the show. 

Yael Shuman: Hi, Jennifer. Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. So, tell me, what is something you wish you learned in grad school? 

Yael Shuman: It really is, um, how to cope and navigate the holidays. The holidays are coming up soon. And I, you know, it, it's just hard with family and money and everything that goes on, it gets overwhelming and stressful. And so, ways to calm that down, make it manageable, and enjoyable would be, you know, great. It's, it's just learn-, learning great ways to do that so you can really enjoy the holidays. 

Jennifer Agee: I completely agree, and I also, I just did a TikTok on this the other day, because it came to my mind that this is the first year in a few years where we have not had the valid excuse of COVID for most of us to be able to avoid family or some of the things that we had done before. And I think a lot of therapists are gonna be seeing these conversations come back into the sessions of how to navigate it. What do I wanna engage in, no longer wanna engage in now that I've had a little bit of a break? So, I'm really glad we're having this conversation. 

Yael Shuman: Me too. And I really hope therapists are bringing this up in session, even if the clients don't bring it up, ' cause it's such an important, um– You know, you don't wanna be dealing with the crisis after the fact or during the holidays. You really wanna, kind of, talk about it and navigate it beforehand so they can prepare. You know, we talk about getting into the holidays, and we prepare. We, we decorate, we shop, we, you know, we buy food, right? And we, we prepare food, but do we talk about how to navigate the emotions and the, and the dynamics of families. And so, I, I'm really all about, with emotional agility training, it's about, you know, training us to prevent bad things and disturbing things happening, to prevent bad feelings. And so, we're looking into how to navigate that in an emotional, healthy way. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, and it, it really, this is an ounce of prevention, right? An ounce of prevention worth, whatever, whatever the saying is. 

Yael Shuman: And trying to find a cure, it's a really uphill battle to, to try and resolve things later. It's so much easier to do the prevention piece. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. Okay. So let's, let's get into it. What are some of the things that, that you think people need to start thinking about?

Yael Shuman: Well, one of them is to be really financially responsible. Um, here in America and, and probably throughout, you know, most of the world, we, you know, holidays are a big deal. We spend lots of money, and we rack up our credit cards, and that becomes very, very stressful. And even, I've had it, even in my office, where clients will come in, come January when bills are due, and like, ooh, I can't pay for therapy. I, you know, I, I'm really short on, on money right now. And so, how can we do this better? And, and it really is thinking about what can I afford? 'Cause it's not always about like buying your loved one's expensive gifts. It is about showing them I care about you, I thought about you. And that doesn't have to be something that's really expensive. So, um, you know, so it is, kind of, thinking about, what is my budget? What can I afford overall? And then breaking it down to, okay, who am I gonna be shopping for? You know, people do drop by with gifts sometimes, so give yourself a little wiggle room that you can last minute buy a few gifts, but that, but that you, but, but you're not gonna be way over budget, maxing out your credit cards and, and creating stress for yourselves. You know, make it enjoyable for you too. 

Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. And as you're speaking, one of the thing that's really coming to my mind is the importance of shared agreement about those things. So, if it's with a partner or even within your greater family of what does that look like for us, I think is, those are really important conversations to have in advance so you're not making those decisions on the fly at the store or while you've got a bunch of things in your Amazon cart, or whatever. 

Yael Shuman: Right. 

Jennifer Agee: That you have shared agreement on what those budgets are. Because there is a financial hangover for a lot of people with the holidays.

Yael Shuman: Yes. Yes. And so, and then that's a really good point is, is to talk about it with, with your partner and your family, and what does this look like? Um, I know, um, that I've met people who, you know, my family, we don't make it a big deal, like, we don't buy the most expensive presents, so we've made it manageable. I know, um, there's other families that are so huge, they have big extended families or maybe a lot of siblings with nieces and nephews, and so they draw out of a hat someone they're, they're each getting a gift for, so you're not getting a gift for everybody. It, it kind of limits it. So, then you can, you know, then you can feel proud of your gift and things like that. So, there's different ways and creative ways families have been able to make this more manageable. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, and I'll tell on myself. Um, my friends joke with me that I'm like the spreadsheet queen because I do love a good Excel spreadsheet.

Yael Shuman: Yeah. Totally. 

Jennifer Agee: And I literally do have an Excel spreadsheet for the holidays. I know what our family budget is, and then I put down every single thing that I purchase for each person and how much it costs so it will auto some for me and I'll know how much those things are. But then I have to keep in mind my grandchildren, they really don't care what things cost. They get, they care that the same number of gifts is there for everyone. So, someone might get something that came from the dollar store, but my, you know, two-year-old granddaughter is super excited to open that thing because when it came to be her turn again, she still had something. So, but no, I do keep track of it on an Excel spreadsheet so that I always know where I'm at, which helps me with those decisions. If I'm at the store, I can quickly pull it up on my Google Drive, and look, and go, actually, I've finished for this grandkid. This might be a good thing for me to maybe get 'cause it's on sale, and I'll put it in the closet and save it for a birthday or something that's coming up. 

Yael Shuman: And those are really good points. Those are great ideas of, of how to manage it. You know, another thing that came up, um, a thought that came up while, while you were speaking is that, you know — I don't know if you've ever seen this with your grandkids; I've seen it with mine and even with my own children — you know, if you get too many things too, it's overwhelming. They, they tend to not enjoy it as much 'cause they're just opening gifts and opening gifts, and by the time they're done, they're tired, and they're not interested in playing with anything, and it's just too much, right? 

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. 

Yael Shuman: And so, coordinating with your family so you're not overwhelming the kids with too much, is it, there's something to that. There's something that they can make, maybe enjoy the holidays a little bit more and be a little less cranky for the holidays if you can make it more enjoyable for them. 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, well, I think when you have fewer things that you're opening, you savor those things and you enjoy them more. You're more intentional with playing with them right away and just really enjoying that time. My family went away from– I mean, we obviously do, um, a, everyone gets a gift and grandkids get a few more than a gift, but where we will put our money is a family experience. So, we would rather go create a memory with our family and put our money into that than having more crap that you have to clean around when you get home.

Yael Shuman: Yeah. Yeah. My family's very similar to that too. Uh, we love doing these experiences, so... 

Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.

Yael Shuman: I think that's a great idea. 

Jennifer Agee: And beyond the financial piece, that also gets into, like, all of your own family stuff, especially if you have a partner, right? How does, how does your family show love with money or doesn't? They don't relate, uh, love and money. Like, family dynamics get really weird around this kind of stuff, for sure. 

Yael Shuman: Yeah. And you're kind of leading me into another tip, which is, um, you know, no one's family is a Hal-, like the Hallmark family, right? We all have different expectations, we all have different, um, ways of doing it, and we have our own little quirks. I think I even have a cute little thing that says, uh, relax. It's not, you know, we're all crazy. It's, it's not a competition. And, um, you know, I, I do think that it's, it's looking — Gosh, I'm going into all these different tips, 'cause it all falls into one another — but, but it is, um, you know, find a healthy dynamic to engage in. Talk about expectations. Talk about, you know, what is this gonna be about? It's not a time to bring up fam-, you know, family, uh, issues, right? 

Jennifer Agee: Right. 

Yael Shuman: That's something that we either deal with before or after the holidays, but maybe not during, during the holidays. We kind of shelve it. I don't believe in, you know, shoving it down a hole, and, you know, and, uh, covering it, you know, and pretend it doesn't exist. But maybe during the holidays is not the right time to delve into it and bring it up. 

Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. 

Yael Shuman: So, you can enjoy the family. But, but yes, talking about, you know, what we're gonna do and how we're gonna do it, does that work for everybody, is really, really important. I think we need to be mindful about, um, you know, about being present, you know, being there in the moment, looking for what are you enjoying? Is there a particular, um, relative that you really enjoy being with? Or, you know, sometimes it's a favorite food or it's a favorite– You know, there's, there's something about the holiday that you really relish, and that you enjoy being with your family, and looking forward to that piece, and really focusing on what's positive, and what's working, and what, and what feels good to you. So, being present in those places really help us enjoy the holidays as well. Do you have a favorite tradition or a favorite thing that, that comes up for you for the holidays? 

Jennifer Agee: I do, and it makes me, it leads me in — I'll tell you what it is, and then I'll tell you that it's important to honor what you don't wanna do — so my favorite tradition in the holidays is my family all comes over. My extended family, sibling — I come from a big family — so siblings, cousins, whatever, they all come over. We pick our favorite Christmas cookie, holiday cookie, and then we all bake together, or you know, we do at my house. It is mayhem, and foolishness, and madness, and I am here for all of it. I wear my candy cane earrings. Like, I've got my favorite apron. It's a thing. I love it. I enjoy it. Now, for me, that's one of my favorite things, but I also have to recognize my daughter is very introverted. Having that many people at the house with noise, cra- craziness, mayhem, and foolishness is her version of HE double hockey sticks, right?

Yael Shuman: Mm-hmm. 

Jennifer Agee: That is not where she wants to be at the holidays, and so I have to release my vision or expectation of what I want her to be for me at that, that experience and recognize she's gonna come over when most of the people are starting to dwindle down, and the chaos is calmed down, and she'll come in and, like, eat cookies and talk to everyone, but really, like, she wants to hang out after the craziness has died down. And just because I am living my best life when it's happening, that's not hers. And I need to release her for her to enjoy her holidays in the way that she wants to. It's perfectly fine. 

Yael Shuman: It is. And, and, and I'm so glad you brought that up because we are different. How we get energy and how we, um, use up energy is very, very different depending on if you're extrovert or introvert. Extroverts, when we're in that chaos — You're obviously an extrovert, right? 

Jennifer Agee: Oh yeah.

Yael Shuman: [INDISCERNIBLE]. The chaos, we gain energy. We, we, we, you know, I, I actually was just even at a, uh, neighborhood party the other day, and I wasn't feeling my best when I showed up to the party. But there was this young, um, there was a young man who was studying to be a psychotherapist. And his energy and his excitement about what he was doing, and we started talking and connecting over the fact that, you know, I've been doing this for a really long time, that, you know, his energy just, he filled me up by the end of the evening. I was feeling great. I was like, oh my gosh. And I gave him a, you know, a big hug at the end. I'm, like, thank you. Thank you for sharing your energy with me 'cause this really made me feel good. And my girlfriend even commented how she saw the difference in change in me. Whereas my husband — so I said, my family's very, very similar — you know, he is an introvert. And that kind of chaos really drains his energy like no tomorrow. And so, it is really important. It was, it was actually, um, an issue in my marriage because I couldn't understand why he kept trying to leave situations and he wouldn't participate. And once I finally learned about introverts versus extroverts, and I understood and could honor the fact that it was draining for him and he needed to recharge by going someplace quiet and by himself or not coming with us to something, really made a difference in our marriage. And so, paying attention to how we gain energy or what drains our energy is really, really important, especially during the holidays, 'cause it can be chaos or it can be quiet time. And how do we create those spaces for our loved ones to be okay? 

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. And that's great questions, not only for us to ask ourselves but for us to ask our clients to be reflective on. What is it that you enjoy the most about the holidays, and what is it that you really wish was not going on, or that, that you could leave, you could leave it, you know? And giving yourself permission to engage to the level that you're comfortable with, which, which actually — my brain is ping ponging everywhere 'cause family dynamics in the holidays could go a thousand directions. 

Yael Shuman: Yes. 

Jennifer Agee: But, um, so we both have grown children. 

Yael Shuman: Right. 

Jennifer Agee: We have been young, married people, and we have also been in the experience where we have grown children. So, we know what those early years are like when you're trying to figure out who goes to whose family for what, and how we divide all of that, and how is it equitable, and all that good stuff. And then consequently, on the flip side, how do you manage your expectations now that you have grown children who now have other sets of parents or family members to consider as well? Those are interesting dynamics, as well, that start to get into play after you have a partner. 

Yael Shuman: Yeah. And sometimes I call them, some of that is "the shoulds." I should do this, and I should do that. And I kind of comment, don't should all over yourself. You know, it, it's, you have to see what works for you. And especially as a young, you know, for young couples, they have to be able to create their own traditions too. And so. It, it is, we're figuring out what works for you. You know, what, what, what am I okay with doing? What am I not okay with doing? How do I, you know, if I wanna spend time with both families on the same day every year — I think that's a little chaotic, but you might wanna do that; that [INDISCERNIBLE], but that's what works for you — then that's, it's not, "I should." It's, "I want." So, understand the difference between should, because I think that's the expectation of me, and I'm trying to meet everyone's expectation, and in the process, I'm exhausting myself and draining myself and stressing myself out versus, you know, um, what I want to do.

Jennifer Agee: Yeah. 

Yael Shuman: And so, you know, and, and yeah, I've, I've, I've been dealing with that with our family of, you know, making it fair maybe every other year. My daughter asked if she could do every other year with us, and we said absolutely. But sometimes we'll just get all together if it works. We'll just say, "Well, why doesn't everyone, you know, gather together in one house?" And we, and, fortunately, we're able to do that. Um, we're able to say, "Let's all gather in one house for the holiday." We really enjoy that probably the most because then no one's missing out, and we get them more often rather than every other year. But, you know, it depends on what works for everybody that year. So, we're very, kind of, flexible in that way. And I think that's, that's what works best for my family is to be a little flexible, have conversations about, "Oh, the holidays are coming up. How do we wanna do it this year? What's gonna work?" This year, for me, it's going to my "fr-amily," which is my, my really good friends that, you know, we've had for ages, and it's, kind of, become a tradition 'cause I don't have family here in Colorado. I go to a friend's house. And we all, we've been doing it together. There's three families that we all get together. And, and it's really fun, but it's gotten so big because now our kids are grown, and I have grandkids. It gets more complicated. So, if I have everybody here in Colorado, I don't go to my fr-amily. I have my family. And I try and gather as many family members together as possible, but sometimes I'll go with my fr-amily. I'm excited to go to my fr-amily this year, so I've kind of let my kids know this is what I'm doing. If you wanna come, that's great. But it, but if, you know, if that's not what you want, then, then you're gonna do your own thing. And, and so, it is, kind of, adjusting and changing and, and getting rid of those shoulds, 'cause I could have easily had the should of we have to all be together, right? 

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. And one piece of advice I would give for those who are more at the stage where that Yael and I are, where we have grown children, is don't be a jackhole. Your kids are trying to navigate really tricky relational things with their partners and the holidays too. So, you know, I, I understand you always celebrated X, Y, or Z on a certain day, but if that date has to move one direction or another to be able to accommodate them, for them to be able to maintain good, high-quality relationships with the other part of their family now, it's okay. It's okay. The important time is that you're intentional with spending time together. Don't make your home one of those places that feels like a pressurized should situation for your kids. 

Yael Shuman: Yes. 

Jennifer Agee: Um, and, and I've really tried to do that. And my son-in-law is a law enforcement officer. He will never work a traditional schedule. We will probably never celebrate the holiday with him on the holiday. 

Yael Shuman: [INDISCERNIBLE] 

Jennifer Agee: And, and my daughter as well, which is fine. So, if his family needs to take the holiday when they can because of his schedule, that's okay. That's their son. We get that. We can be flexible and not put more stress and pressure on their, on their marriage and their relationship. It's okay.

Yael Shuman: Yeah, no, it's important. It's, it's, it's all about how, and that's, like, what a great gift you gave him for the holidays by understanding and not making it stressful, right? And they're saying, "Hey, we still wanna celebrate you, with you. We wanna do these things with you. Let's pick a day to do it." 

Jennifer Agee: Yeah, absolutely. And that, that lets us off a hook too, because, I mean, who doesn't sometimes love a nice little lazy morning on the holiday when there's no expectations of you? So... And the reality is, I don't have kids at home. So, I can go– You know, my son has five children. Is it easier for him to come to us or us to come to him? Let's be real, right? The kids have everything they need in their home. It is way easier for them if we come to them. 

Yael Shuman: Right. 

Jennifer Agee: Do I wanna necessarily travel that far? Mm. Maybe not all the time, because they, they live quite a distance away. But I wanna be with them, and I know that that is way easier on their family system if I make the adjustment to what my, my tradition or expectation is and create a new one with their family. 

Yael Shuman: Exactly. Exactly. Um, you know, we kind of hit upon it a little bit, uh, a little bit ago, but you do want to do things in moderation during the holidays. Um, we, you know, we, when we talk about all this wonderful food and traditions that we have with the cookies and everything, you wanna, you would, you wanna do things in moderation. So yes, enjoy. Absolutely. I always do. I mean, this time of year, Snickers are calling my name and saying, "come and eat me," 'cause I love Snickers. Um, but, if I ate too much, like, I'm going into type two, uh, type two diabetes. I shouldn't be eating a lot of that. So, I do, and even if you're not, we put on weight during this time of year, and it's really, it's a lot easier to put it on than to take it off. 

Jennifer Agee: Oh. Yeah. 

Yael Shuman: And I do want to make sure that we're doing things in moderation that we're enjoying. So, eat, you know, maybe half a slice of pie or, or, like, two cookies instead of, you know, five. So, it's just, it's doing things in moderation. Also, with alcohol. This is a time of year where we're drinking a lot of alcohol, and, um, for those who consume. And so, you wanna do that in moderation. Alcohol lowers inhibitions. And then we might do or say things without the filter that can be hurtful, harmful to the relationship, into making it a nice place to be during the holidays, you know, with our family. So, limit your alcohol, limit the, you know, your libations, and, and just enjoy, you know, the moments, of being mindful of the moment, and enjoying the beautiful parts of the holiday. 

Jennifer Agee: And that brings up, brings me to my next thing to talk about, which is having boundaries when maybe people are not having a healthy relationship with alcohol or something else in the moment when you're at someone's house, right? With, just because it's your mom, your uncle, your whatever, it's okay for you to say, you know, um, we're gonna go ahead and head home. You don't have to stay till the end if you can tell that maybe things are taking a turn, or the emotion of the room or the energy of the room is starting to shift, or there's kids around and you don't want them around it. Just 'cause they're your family doesn't mean that you have to stay in that situation. If you have a boundary of “we don't wanna expose our kids to Uncle Dave's drunken shenanigans after 10 o'clock,” well, then that's fine. We leave at 9:30. No big deal. It's perfectly okay to draw those boundaries. And families could say, "Well, why aren't you gonna stay?" And just say, "Ah, you know, the kids have had a big day. You know, you guys have a great time." And just leave. It's not the time for confrontation, but draw boundaries that are healthy for yourself and for your family. 

Yael Shuman: Yes, and I, I'm a licensed marriage family therapist, so I'm all about healthy relationships and healthy boundaries. And in fact, I think most people think if I set a boundary, I'm being, doing something aggressive. I, I'm being confrontational, and I say no. Boundaries, people don't know our boundaries unless we let them know where they are. 

Jennifer Agee: Yes. 

Yael Shuman: And, you know, a lot of the time, sometimes, and we shouldn't assume people could mind read and know where our boundaries are. But boundaries allow for healthy relationships. 

Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm.

Yael Shuman: It, it helps us not have toxic relationships with family and friends. So, boundaries are incredibly important to set, to, to discuss, and I think you do that before the holidays. You don't wait till Christmas morning or Thanksgiving Day to start talking about your expectations. I would do it way ahead of time. Um, with a lot of my clients who, who do have toxic relationships within their family, I do say have an exit plan. Don't ever host. Don't ever host. Because you can't leave if you're hosting and that– So, so you, you go to see your family, that's great. Don't stay at the house. Stay, stay at another place that you can escape to. Um, and so those are really, really important, you know, sending boundaries, using "I" messages. So, when this happens, I feel — not that you make me feel, you eliminate the word you — but when this happens, "I feel disrespected," or whatever that is, "could we please try not to do that ahead of time?" And I will say, if it happens, you need to be consistent with your message. So, if you're inconsistent and you do the should, "well, I should just play nice; it's the holidays," you know, I'm gonna say, [INDISCERNIBLE]. You need to be consistent in your message, but you're changing the rules. So, if you've never set up boundaries with your family members and you suddenly show up and start setting boundaries, you're changing the rules on them. So, if you don't tell them ahead of time, you're gonna change the rules, that's gonna blow up in your face.

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. Yes, those, that discussion ahead of time is so important.

Yael Shuman: And so, I, I keep saying the word expectations, discuss expectations. I've said this the entire podcast, and it's really important to talk about expectations. And it's not about, you have to do this, but this bothers me. This feels disrespectful. This is hurtful. And so, I'd appreciate if this behavior or these words are not said, or, you know, things along those lines. Saying things along those lines are really, really helpful because maybe they weren't aware. And that might be a discussion you can have. And I'm gonna say people aren't gonna get it the first try, so have some patience with this process. It's a process of people understanding to learn your boundaries, to respect those boundaries. They're gonna go into knee-jerk behaviors, and so to remind them like, "hey, you know, I'm kind of seeing that behavior again," and say it really sweetly and nicely just to point out to them. Now, if they just kind of blow you up, you can say, "okay, you know, I'm not feeling so good. I'm gonna leave." 

Jennifer Agee: Absolutely. 

Yael Shuman: And, and it's okay to exit those kinds of situations if it feels toxic to you and not okay. It's not meant to be a punishment. It is meant to be that you're keeping yourself safe emotionally and mentally, and that you're not gonna allow that toxicity to ruin your day.

Jennifer Agee: A lot of family members are better over lunch. I'll just tell you that. Some family members are better just to have lunch with. But speaking, so emotional agility, I know you created a whole, um, uh, program about it. You've got boundary baskets. I wanna talk about the, with emotional agility, taking care of yourself over the holidays, because this is a season that does come with a lot of family expectations. 

Yael Shuman: Right. 

Jennifer Agee: A lot of shoulds. And I want you to give yourself permission to curate the holiday that you want. So, not having to should all over yourself of saying yes to everything if you know that you do not want to be out every, you know, both Friday and Saturday, plus I had a work thing Wednesday night. If you don't wanna do all of that, well, then you do not have to do it. It is perfectly okay to say no. Because you've gotta balance your own energy, or you come into January and you're exhausted. That's the opposite of what holidays are supposed to be able to do for ourselves or what we hope they'll do for ourself, which is, you know, rejuvenation and, uh, new beginnings and all of that stuff. So, take care of yourself over the holidays, as well. 

Yael Shuman: Yes, and, you know, dur-, you know, during COVID, it was interesting because I didn't get to be around people and get all this energy, so I had to get energy in different way. And I'm a little bit, I get tired more easily when I'm with people all the time. Because, you know, this is, this, last year's been an adjustment. All of a sudden, we're peopling again, right? We're getting around people. And so, learning how to be around people and not allow yourself to get exhausted, that's like a new thing that I'm coping with and dealing with. And so, yes, I do have this emotional agility program. Um, you mentioned my boundary basket. So, I do have, within my training, I have little, little snippets, little videos that people can purchase and watch, and one of them is called the boundary basket and does discuss how to set boundaries, how to approach them, how to talk about them, how to visualize and understand what that means to set boundaries. So, I have that within my program. I also have basic just coping skills with anxiety and depression and things like that, that all create that emotional agility. During COVID, um, we needed emotional agility.

Jennifer Agee: Mm-hmm. 

Yael Shuman: And we need it bad. So, the words resilience came up, and think, and, and, um, prevention started coming up. And so, I created this program to encompass all these things, but I'm also a trauma therapist, and I realized sometimes things are really disturbing and trying to teach a traumatized brain how to cope with those things, um, can be very difficult. That it's better to do, like you said, as prevention than trying to find the cure and, and, and trying to cure something. And so, this is all meant to be preventative. It, it's getting you into good, healthy habits. So, there's healthy habits in my, in my training that you can take to just, kind of, learn how can I do that? Resilience and emotional agility is not about never getting knocked down. It's not about never being sad or disappointed. It is about, okay, so we fill these things. How do we overcome them and pick ourselves back up? That's what resilience and emotional agility is. How do we deal with things that are, that are uncomfortable and then, and then be able to move–, focus on them, process them, and move on, and move forward in a healthy way. And that's what this emotional agility training is all about. 

Jennifer Agee: Amazing. So how can people connect with you or, um, purchase the training? What do you wanna share? 

Yael Shuman: Okay, so you can go to my website, Shuman Psychotherapy, so S H U M A N, psychotherapy, P S — am I spelling this right? P S Y C H O T H E R A P Y .com. And, um, I do have a tab that that talks about, um, equipped emotional agility training. It's on this tab, prevent pre-, pre-trauma prevention. So, click on that tab on the very bottom of that page. There is a link to the emotional agility, um, website where you can purchase these classes. 

Jennifer Agee: Awesome. Well, if you wanna treat yourself for the holidays, you are also welcome to go on my website, counselingcommunity.com, and, uh, click to come to Portugal with us for a retreat on focusing on business growth and marketing in October. So, you're welcome to do that too if you wanna la-, end of the year tax deduction. I've got one waiting for you. 

Yael Shuman: Oh, I'm looking at that one for sure. 

Jennifer Agee: Yael, thank you so much for being on. Uh, I appreciated our conversation, and hopefully, this prompts those that are listening or the, the therapists that are listening to start talking about this with their clients. Again, an ounce of prevention is worth more than finding the cure. Um, so everyone get out there and live your best dang life. Thanks again for being on.

Yael Shuman: Thank you.