Catalytic Leadership
Feeling overwhelmed by the daily grind and craving a breakthrough for your business? Tune in to the Catalytic Leadership Podcast with Dr. William Attaway, where we dive into the authentic stories of business leaders who’ve turned their toughest challenges into game-changing successes.
Each episode brings you real conversations with high-performing entrepreneurs and agency owners, sharing their personal experiences and valuable lessons. From overcoming stress and chaos to elevating team performance and achieving ambitious goals, discover practical strategies that you can apply to your own leadership journey. Dr. Attaway, an Executive Coach specializing in Mindset, Leadership, and and Productivity, provides clear, actionable insights to help you lead with confidence and clarity.
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Catalytic Leadership
The Surprising Truth About Control: How Real Leaders Actually Scale with David Dial
What if the very thing you think is helping your business grow is actually holding it back? In this episode, I sit down with David Dial to uncover the surprising truth about control—and why real leaders must break free from it in order to scale. For digital agency owners striving to build a sustainable, high-performing business, this conversation reveals that scaling doesn’t come from doing more—it comes from leading differently.
We dig into the leadership bottlenecks that silently stall growth: emotional reactivity, fear-based decision-making, and the inability to develop internal talent. If your team can’t move without you, this episode challenges the way you lead and offers a practical path toward scalable, self-managing teams. For agency owners stuck in the weeds and craving real momentum—this is the shift you've been avoiding, but can’t afford to ignore.
Books Mentioned:
- As a Man Thinketh by James Allen
- Playing to Win by Larry Wilson
Connect with David Dial:David is launching a new group coaching program to help emerging leaders in established SMBs unleash their team’s passion and performance, turning daily challenges into lasting success and well-being. Connect with him on LinkedIn to learn more and join early.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
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Connect with Dr. William Attaway:
I am excited today to have David Dial on the podcast. David is an author, professional speaker, trainer, consultant and coach. With over 30 years of recruiting and HR consulting experience, he advises business leaders on how to accomplish ambitious endeavors. David was the CEO of a high-growth company for two and a half years, so he has an intimate knowledge of the challenges and dilemmas that business leaders face. He works with companies around the US, canada and Western Europe, working with leaders to uncover obstacles, overcome constraints, develop strategic plans and implement integrated development programs. The goal is to transform groups of employees into high-performance teams and release untapped human potential. David, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show. Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.
Speaker 1:I would love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, David, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started?
Speaker 2:around your journey and your development as a leader. How did you get started? Well, I mean, from an entrepreneurial point of view, I guess my first job was I was a magician when I was about 12. And I like magic and so I just was doing it. And then I was doing birthday parties around the neighborhood and getting paid for it. That was kind of fun and that, you know, I kind of get that idea of, hey, I can do something I really like and I can make money doing it. So I was about 15, 16 years old and I was at a school dance and I really thought the DJ was a cool guy and so I convinced my dad to co-sign a loan for me and I bought all the equipment to become a mobile DJ. So I did that into university, actually age, and I started a couple of smaller companies in my after university with some friends.
Speaker 2:But I, you know, I I was looking for what I wanted to do. I I was in sales coming out of university and enjoyed that part of it, but was really looking for, I guess, maybe I guess something a little bit more in terms of that and I wasn't really sure. It was kind of searching around. So I just actually answered an ad in the paper one day and I became a recruiter, because recruiters are essentially salespeople yeah, right, right At the very core of what they do, on both sides the candidate side and the and the client side. And I, I, I became successful at that. I was running four branches for a company one in Portland, one in Vancouver here in Canada, one in Calgary where I live, and one in Ottawa down in eastern Canada, and just through a series of different events, I just decided that I could do this on my own. So I borrowed a desk and a phone, I started making phone calls and I started making placements and I started building a recruiting company. We really built that company up over about five years With employees. We were really getting to a stage where I thought we could take it to a sort of a regional level, not just a local level.
Speaker 2:And 9-11 happened and the bottom fell out of the recruiting industry. We went from record months of revenue to zero in under 30 days. So you know, big lesson learned from running your own organization like that is like you need to have a cushion, you need to be able to have a few months worth of you know funds available so that you can pay all your bills while you're waiting for the market to come back. So that was a real decision point for me. It was a moment of not just a moment of choice, but a moment of truth truth. So really enjoyed what I was doing and what I discovered was that, in order to be successful as a recruiter, what I was doing a lot of was working with my clients to ensure they had the right onboarding, that their managers were set for new employees, and the more that I did that, the lower the replacement level went. Let's put it that way, the success level went up in terms of people staying successfully, and I decided, you know what? I think this is a really good opportunity for me to pivot the business in that direction, something I really enjoy.
Speaker 2:Over about six months, I helped all my employees find jobs with other recruiting agencies or doing something else, and became basically a solopreneur at that point and started building this idea of how do I help, you know, building teams that accomplish dreams, how do I work with companies to translate that strategy that they've got, that vision that they've got, into results.
Speaker 2:And so I started doing a lot of work in that vein from starting from the HR point of view but then getting a lot more into the leadership aspect of it. So how do leaders affect what's going on? Not just your managers, not just your employees, but how do we integrate the whole aspect of this from strategic to operational to tactical? And so I started doing that, started doing a lot of workshops, started working with a lot of teams. So I started working with clients as a fractional VP of HR, where I would basically embed myself with them my longest running client was about 14 years and so I'll, you know, go in and work with them, where I can work side by side with their managers and leaders and we can start to develop processes and practices for them to improve. So that's a bit of my journey over the last 30 years.
Speaker 1:So my goodness, so much of your work is. It really illustrates that there is no wasted experience. You know, as you have moved along this, you know every piece has really contributed to the next chapter Right. And into making you the person, the leader that you are today?
Speaker 2:It did, and you know there was a. There was a, you know, in the fall of 2020, what is this now so like? In the fall of 2023, I was. I was involved with a company and I was an investor in this company, an indoor vertical farming company. So you know growing strawberries indoors without sunlight, even when it's minus 30 outside here in Canada, and there was an opportunity where they asked me would you like to become the CEO? And I said OK, and so we took that from proof of concept right through to the cusp of commercialization.
Speaker 2:So that exposed me a lot to the finance side. You know raising money. You know really having a really clear handle on the market that we were dealing with and how we access the market. So I learned a lot from that as well. I also learned that being the CEO is probably not the best role for me, so I did enjoy it. But I think what I learned was that I bring far more value when I'm working within the team to help the team be stronger, as opposed to having to be the visionary leader of the team. I can do that. I proved to myself that I could do it. But now, coming back, in the last year and a half or last year actually back to my practice and working with clients and new clients. I'm really bringing that value again, and much quicker than I used to.
Speaker 1:And I think you can speak into them now, into your clients now, from a place of hey, I've been there, yeah, I know what you're going through.
Speaker 2:And I think you've been here too. I mean, at certain times when you're working with, you know, leaders and managers and teams, you need to be the firm voice of reason which is you know. I think you're hiding, I think you're let your fear overtaking what you. You know what you really want to have happen here, right, and I think that you know that's affecting how you're making decisions and choices and that's taking you down the wrong path to where you want to go. So if you really want to be successful, you need to, you know, take the time to be able to look at who am I as a leader, what choices am I making as a leader, and is that really supporting and serving the vision that we've got? And sometimes you've got to do what scares scares you. You just do yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. You move toward the best, you move toward the bets, you move through the fear, exactly. Yeah, I love that. So, thinking through some of the clients that you've served, can you share a story or two of how you have served them and some of the things you've seen as they move to the other side of their fear?
Speaker 2:You know, I can think you know the longest serving client I've had in 14 years. You know I knew the owner very well. They were an insurance brokerage had. Probably about the time I started with them they were probably about 50 people. When we finished we were about 105, 110.
Speaker 2:He ended up selling to a much larger insurance company here in Canada. But at that time he said, look, I've taken this as far as I can go, right, that's my skill set. And what he wanted to do was build an organization where, you know, the team was running the company. He didn't have to feel like he was always inside running the company right and being that person they always went to. So it was like, okay, how can we help this team to be able to do it? And they had some very strong people but they hadn't really figured out the, I guess, the spectrum between management on one side and leadership on the other, because they're two different pieces. Sometimes they meet more towards the middle.
Speaker 2:But sometimes when you're managing, you're executing and you're looking at process and you're looking at how things are there and on leading the other side of that, you're looking at practices and experience and knowledge and how we're applying that to the processes that we're using. So how do we put these things together? So we, you know, the challenge and I think this is a challenge that a lot of people in a lot of different industries face is that you know there are lots of experienced people out there, but do we necessarily want all of them Right? So we want certain types of people who fit our culture. Just because you have 20 plus years of whatever and whatever you know company, that you might not be right for this company, right? The experience is not just what you need. You also need that fit and where the company goes and their buy-in.
Speaker 2:So we started building a system where we would attract who we wanted from those various experienced people and at the same time, we started building a process to say how would we build our own very successful insurance brokers? What are the processes, who are the people, how would we train them? And it took us probably about two and a half three years to do that, but at the end of that we got to a point where we no longer felt like we were held hostage to this sort of shortage of experienced people out there. We could bring in the ones who really bought into us. But at the same time we could go and say, look, we can find a really bright, really enthusiastic person who fits our culture, who really wants this as a career. And now we have a way of saying this is where we would start you, and then, within about two years a week you could be an experienced broker who's really enjoying their career.
Speaker 2:I love that so that, when you talk about taking the people the managers that I was dealing with had a real fear of, you know, am I smart enough, am I good enough, and all those sorts of things, and it was like, well, some of you some of them were like you know, you've got 20 years of experience doing this. You know you need to rely on the fact that you know how to do this right. We just have to figure out the process for being able to train other people on what you know how to do right and you know how to do Right. And we need to attract the right person who's going to take, sort of soak that up and really do something with it Right, that's true, and so guiding them through those those fears were.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes you just have to do it. Let it go and say I accept the fact that I feel I fear about this or my emotions or whatever the emotions I'm feeling are at the time. But if I accept that, I understand how they affect me and those around me and we can overcome that, let's just do what needs to be done. So, one step at a time, right.
Speaker 1:Do you ever find that clients push back on that? Do you ever find that they say I don't know if I can do that, and really, struggle, it's over.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, overcoming certain fears is daunting, right, because they're so ingrained in who we are and how long that we've had them, right, that we don't actually even realize sometimes, like I'll have clients who push back at me who don't even realize that they're coming from a place of fear. Right, right, right, exactly. Actually, they've got all these self-defense mechanisms and all these things put in place, this armor in place, to be able to protect them from this thing that they really fear, that they are saying, look, I'm good, you don't have to talk to me about this, I'm fine. And then what we do is, over time, we go, but the results that you're got a conflict with, you know, between what I want to do and what I am doing. So what is that? And that usually comes to some sort of a fear. So we can uncover that and say, look, it's okay, we're supposed to be, we're supposed to have emotions. We, you know, the whole idea is we have emotions, we aren't our emotions, that's right. Right, we know we have, we have fears and it's natural for us to have fears because that's how we've survived as a species. Right Is being selective about that. But what am I buying into? And I think.
Speaker 2:I think at a point like that, we start getting into a discussion of what is it that I'm making up in my head? That isn't true. Yeah, that's holding me back. I'm telling myself a story inside of my head that I'm not sharing with anybody else. That's actually holding me back from this next step. I've lived through it myself. I've had to overcome a lot of fears. I've had to overcome a lot of places where it was like, wow, can I really do this? And you know the short answer to that is well, if I do it and I fail, it's about the same as me not doing it and being a failure right now. Which one is the best one?
Speaker 1:to do.
Speaker 2:That's so good. I mean, as long as you know you don't like hurt yourself. Just put it that way, right, you know, if you're coming off a, you know 200 story building or something.
Speaker 1:You know that's that's interesting. I often talk with clients about this too and I say that emotions are necessary passengers in your car, but you should never let them drive, because you will end up in a ditch 100% of the time. That's not how we're intended to use them. I love how you said that you know we are not our emotions. We have them, but we are not them.
Speaker 2:And when we start to get to the point where we can accept that and then say look, if I can really do this, I mean I run into, you know, especially with, say, founders, people who are still running their organization. They've been doing it for a long time. They're really they, you know they're. They're so there's, you know, it's so tied to their identity that what happens is when things aren't going their way, or people aren't doing exactly what they want, that's where anger starts to jump in.
Speaker 2:Yep, right. And when they start to get angry, of course that can destroy relationships. That really kills morale. It does a lot of different things, but really that anger is a way of them trying to protect themselves from something that they're really afraid of, right? So if I can look at it and say, look and I've worked with people who are like I'm not angry, I'm not an angry person and it's like look, let's just go back, no-transcript.
Speaker 2:And then, second of all, how does that emotion affect those around me? Right? So if you've got managers who you know don't delegate or won't take risks or aren't doing these things that you really want them to, it's usually because they're standing back a little bit, because they know if they take the next step, you're probably going to yell at them, or you're going to get mad at them, or you're going to do something because you didn't do it exactly the way they want it. You wanted them to do it, and so they've learned this about you. And so now what you've really done is, by not understanding how that emotion affects that person, you've stunted them a little bit in terms of them being able to take a risk, or being able to stretch themselves, or being able to do something a little bit out of the box, right, because they don't want to get yelled at. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1:So well said, when you're thinking about the clients, that you work best with, the clients that you would consider to be. These are the ones that are the target, the ideal client avatar. How would you describe that? If people are listening, they're like am I the right person to work with David?
Speaker 2:How would you describe them. I find this is you know, I've done a lot of work strategically and strategic planning et cetera, but that's not really the point of what I do is that I can do that, but what I like to be able to do, what I believe I bring the most value to do, is to work with that leader and say tell me what your vision is, and we can. It can be a full blown strategic plan, or you've done a lot of work on it, or it's just tell me, empty out your thoughts of, in three to five years, what does this place look like? That it doesn't look like today. How can I help you to actually take and translate that vision into something now that we can put into an operational, implement, like implementable plan? Right, and how can we then find out?
Speaker 2:Do you have the right people to be able to implement that plan? A lot of times, the visionary is not the person who should be implementing anything. That's true. They shouldn't be right Because they get caught in the details and they're too worried about the outcome and they just don't.
Speaker 2:They don't let people kind of use their strengths. So you need a good person who's good at implementing, saying, okay, great, if this is the plan and this is the process and where we want to go, I'm really good at being able to get this done right. When we start to attract the people and give them work on their strengths and their competencies, to say, look at, you're really good at this. We really want you to push this as far as you can go. We're not going to worry about putting in all the stuff that you don't have. We just want to pull out everything that you do have and really help you grow and along the way, you're going to add more skills and competencies.
Speaker 2:So those clients who are able to say I can describe my vision and it means more than means so much to me that I'm willing to let go, Because it means so much to me that I'm willing to let go Because a lot of times the clients that I know that I won't work with, I don't let work with, are the ones who won't let go Need to control everything, need to right. So at that point then you know, then you need to make a decision. Maybe you need to just be on a smaller scale, where you make less money. But you can control everything. There's nothing wrong with that, yeah, okay. But if you want to scale and if you want to grow and if you want this to be bigger, then you need at some point to let go and trust that things will get done while you can go and do other things. So let's free you up to go to do what you're really good at, while we have a team that actually implements for you.
Speaker 1:I love that, david, let's talk about you for a minute. You know you have to lead your practice at a higher level today, lead your clients and your team at a higher level today than you did, you know, a couple years ago. Right? The same thing is going to be true three, four, five years from now, Right? How do you stay on top of your game? How do you level up with the leadership skills that your clients and your team are going to need you to have?
Speaker 2:And I started doing this maybe, gosh, it's got to be like 20 years ago. I stopped buying into the flavor of the month in terms of what was the latest management fad or somebody's interpretation of whatever it was to be able to you know, get you know. Whatever it was to be able to you know, get you know, huge success or something Right, and learning to trust myself in terms of what I understood and what I knew. Okay, who am I as a person and a leader? So that was a good place to start. And then it was really going back and trying to get to the, the fundamental ideas of what leadership is all about. And there's just there are certain tenants. I mean this goes back to ancient writing. This goes back to stoicism. This goes back to, you know, greek philosophy and Roman philosophy All those are there.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to go back and read that, though. I mean you might've done this right. You go back and you can read Marcus Aurelius, you know meditations and stuff. It's hard to pull out the principles and then say how do I apply these principles? Right, because he was thinking in a stoic manner, right? So you can take that and I think one of the biggest ones.
Speaker 2:I learned from that was that dichotomy of thought. You know, the dichotomy of choice. I have a choice, what can I control? Sorry, the dichotomy of control what can I control and what can't I control? If I can't control it, why do I spend a lot of time there? And we do spend a lot of time in our minds worrying about things we have absolutely no control over. Yes, Focus on what you can control and then you'll expand your sphere of influence. So that became sort of a guiding principle for me in terms of understanding that. And then I started reading some other ideas going down that idea of the power of thought. So one that I regularly go back to is James Allen, as man thinketh. And that's really about power of thought and how you can just think about, and it's really just being aware of how do I think, is it negative or positive, and how does it affect me and how does it help me grow. And if you can do that every day, thinking more positively than negatively, then you're normally going on the right thing.
Speaker 2:I also really enjoyed reading Ellen Langer and mindfulness, which was, you know, the idea. And she was, you know, she's a professor, a psychology professor at Harvard. She was the first female ever to get tenure in psychology at Harvard and she did a lot of psychological research into mindfulness. Right and that. And I really loved it, because when people, when I start talking about mindfulness, people think you gotta be a guru and go meditate and do all sorts of stuff. Right To be this mindfulness person.
Speaker 2:And I really liked the way that she put it that you can really understand which is, if you're not mindful, then you're mindless, and the idea is right. And the idea is when you're mindless is that you're just following the routines and the habits and the things that go on and that's how you operate. You're kind of on autopilot. When you become mindful, you start to think about what am I thinking about or how am I making decisions? I slow down enough to understand. That's being mindful, right, I'm being mindful about how I operate in the world and really getting a better sense of what I do.
Speaker 2:So that idea of that mindfulness for me, especially now, after you know, again, looking at the practice side of it, after you've got so much knowledge and experience that you start to let go of the fact that I'm not the smartest person in the room and I'm not trying to prove that I'm the smartest person in the room, right?
Speaker 2:I'm just trying to help people to get to a place of have we really thought carefully about the decisions we're going to make here? Yeah, right, I love that. And, you know, does that help us get to the outcomes that you want, right? So you know, for me, again, it's just, it's sticking to those, those basic tenets, helping people understand that and then saying, look at, then you're allowed to be who you are and what you're talented at and what you're brilliant at, and we don't have to worry about a whole bunch of rules or you know slick, you know sort of ideas about. There are people writing some book about hey, here's the 15 steps to success. It's like you know. You don't have to do that. You can use your own brilliance and your own talent, based on some really strong principles, and be an awesome leader. So true.
Speaker 1:So much of it is really about asking the right questions, like you're describing. Yeah, I mean, that's how you get the right answers. You know so many of us are asking the wrong questions and it just takes us askew. Yeah, I think that's so well said. So, thinking about your entrepreneurial journey, you know you've had a lot of experiences along the way Right, that kid who was doing you know the DJ thing magic all the way to today. Some people might look at you from the outside and look at your highlight reel and say, oh man, david, his journey's just been up and to the right. He's never really struggled, he's never really had the challenges that I deal with as an entrepreneur. If somebody were to say that to you, how would you respond to that?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it's the ups and downs. Everyone wants to look at you know, what is success? Right, and how do we define success? And that's usually sort of based on things that are external to whoever who you are. It's usually based on you know, what kind of job do I have? How much money do I make? What kind of job do I have? How much money do I make? What kind of office do I have? What you know, how do I have a trope free spouse? Do I? You know, what kind of car do I drive? All those things which are so external.
Speaker 2:And they they tend to say, hey, wow, you know. Now I know guys who you know, you meet them. And they, you know, they get, they're fabulously wealthy, they got. You get to know them. You find out that they're profoundly some of the most depressed and unfulfilled people that you're ever going to find, because they're not actually getting what they need by this idea of success. Okay. And so I look at it sometimes and I say, well, you know, I've, I gauge success sometimes on how well you're able to deal with adversity and struggle.
Speaker 2:So when people say that it's like no, I, this just didn't happen overnight. I, I struggled, like I said, I borrowed a desk and a phone. You know my, I had our. We had a son who was about seven months old. My wife was pregnant with our second son. You know this was our livelihood. We had to pay the mortgage. We, you know, we were at that stage in our life and it was like, okay, I've got to like really go through this. And it was a struggle. I mean, you don't just pick up a phone and start phoning people and all of a sudden you're making a lot of money. It took a lot of effort, it took a lot of that. You know, when we got to a certain point and 9-11 happened again, you know, we went from record months of revenue to zero in 30 days and I didn't have, and I hadn't thought about putting the money aside to be able to run the business for six months or a year, right. So a good management consulting company, whatever it is, will always have a contingency fund to be able to weather any storms, because there's always ups and downs, right.
Speaker 2:So you know that wasn't so great. I had to find jobs for all my people. I had to pivot the whole business. I had to, you know, put my house on the line. I had to do a bunch of things to keep the business going and you know there were times.
Speaker 2:You know there were times, even then, when you know it's like, if, if, you want to be a real entrepreneur, right, this is, this is. This is one of my, this is one of my areas that you can know you're a real entrepreneur when you cash advance your visa for payroll, are you that committed? Wow, right, and I can tell you, I cash advance my visa to cover payroll. So you know cashflow and it's understanding those things, and you know you don't. You know you get to a certain level in a certain time where people go, wow, you know, like, how did you learn this? And it was like, well, I learned it by struggling, I learned it by going through periods of, you know, profound disappointment at times, right, that things weren't going my way. But the idea is, is that's not what defines you?
Speaker 1:It's what you do about it. That actually defines you so good. Right, david? Let's say you had the ability to go back, given all the things that you know. Now go back and talk to that nine-year-old kid Right. What would you love to go back and talk to that nine-year-old kid Right? What?
Speaker 2:would you love to go back and tell yourself Well, I think it's what I've begun telling my 61-year-old self, and that's just be in the moment and don't define yourself by your past, because this is the past, you can't do anything about it, you can't change it, and don't live in the future. Don't live in the what ifs or when this happens. Or you know, when I do this, I'm going to be able to do that and I'm going to be successful when I, you know, do this. It's like have goals, have your plan, have what you want to do in terms of your vision, but then bring back yourself every day into the moment and say what is it I can be doing right now, today, to help me advance towards that?
Speaker 2:Okay, what am I doing right in this moment and who am I right in this moment? And that's good, except that person. Good, right. And that's what I would tell my nine-year-old self. It's what I. It's what I would tell myself today. It's not what I was telling myself in my 30s and my 40s. I can tell you that much, work harder, do more.
Speaker 1:Exactly, with less.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:That is a common refrain. I think at that point You're like me. You're a continual learner, You're always learning, You're always growing Is there a book that has made a really big difference? I think that if you're looking for a team I don't even know if it's in print anymore, but it was called Playing to Win and I think it was by a guy named Larry Wilson. Larry Wilson was a really successful insurance salesman, et cetera, became a motivational speaker, ended up building a place it was called Pecos River I think, and it was a team facilitation kind of center. But he started doing a lot of work with teams and he wrote this book, I think with his son, called Playing to Win, and it was a lot of what we just sort of encapsulated in this conversation and he had actually found a way to kind of bring it all together to be able to say look are we playing to win or are we playing not to lose?
Speaker 2:And that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Oh, are we playing to win or we're playing just not to lose, like we're just going around doing cya all day, we're not taking any risks, we're not doing whatever you know we can. Sometimes we can say we're playing to win, so I got to go and take a risk, I got to try and do something different, or or whatever it is, so that we can get to the next stage. Um, that was a good book and I think I really that was sort of early in my, in my facilitation days and running workshops and so I found that book to be very helpful in terms of just some core concepts of working with teams.
Speaker 1:I love that. I haven't read that. I'm going to see if I can get a copy of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't, I can't, I don't even know. I've got a copy but I don't know if it's in print anymore. It might be, but yeah, playing, playing to win Larry Wilson. Yeah.
Speaker 1:David, this has been a fascinating and insightful conversation. I'm so grateful for you sharing so generously today of your time and the insight that you've gained along the way. I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and learn more about what you're doing. What's the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 2:I think right now, if you look me up on LinkedIn, you follow me on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn. That's the best way for them to do that. I think right now, if you look me up on LinkedIn, you follow me on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn. That's the best way to find me. Obviously, we've got a website, but LinkedIn is where you'll see stuff that I'm posting, where you're going to see different things that I'm offers at different things for free or whatever you know resources, et cetera, and just yeah, I'll be doing some.
