Tired of Founder-Led Sales? Build a Sales System That Scales

If you’re still the one closing every deal, reviewing every proposal, and carrying the weight of revenue growth, the issue isn’t effort; it’s structure. Without a clear sales system, growth eventually stalls.

In this episode, I sit down with Chris Cocca, President of Strategic Sales in Frederick, Maryland. Chris serves clients across the U.S. and brings more than 25 years of sales leadership experience, including 17 years at PepsiCo. He’s also a Sales Acceleration Advisor and a five-time President’s Club winner who has helped B2B and professional services firms create record-breaking sales growth.

We explore what it takes to build a scalable sales system that moves a company beyond founder-led selling. Chris shares practical strategies around CRM-driven sales operations, aligning sales and marketing KPIs, improving pipeline consistency, and developing a repeatable sales process that strengthens accountability across the team.

If you’re scaling a digital agency or service business and want a predictable pipeline, stronger team performance, and a sales process that doesn’t depend on you, this conversation will give you the clarity to move forward with confidence.

Books Mentioned

- Traction by Gino Wickman
- Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman and Mark C. Winters

If you’d like to continue the conversation with Chris or learn more about building a stronger sales system for your company, connect with him on LinkedIn by searching Chris Cocca. You can also reach him directly at ccocca@salesxceleration.com or by phone at 918-409-9559.

Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.

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Transcript

Meet Chris CoccA And His Path

Dr. William Attaway 0:00

I'm so excited today to have Chris Cocca on the podcast. Chris is the president of Strategic Sales, located in Frederick, Maryland, and serving clients across the U.S. for the last eight years. He's a certified sales leader with 25 plus years of sales leadership experience, including 17 years at PepsiCo. He's a former CPA with an accounting and finance background and a sales acceleration advisor, which is the largest group of fractional sales leaders in the world. He's a five-time winner of their President's Club Award. He's created record-breaking sales growth and improved accountability for his professional services and B2B business clients. And I'm so glad you're on the show today, Chris. Thanks for being here. Thank you, William. I really appreciate you having me.

Intro 0:49

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host, author, and leadership and executive coach, Dr. William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway 1:06

I'd love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, Chris, particularly about your journey and your development as a leader. How did all this get started?

Mentors And Independent Coaching

Chris Cocca 1:16

Yeah, I knew early on in my career that I wanted to be in a leadership position. I just kind of had that innate sense of wanting to help others and wanting, you know, to be a natural leader. I did get that opportunity pretty early on in my career when I was a CPA and working in private industry. Then when I got to PepsiCo, uh, you know, there's all kinds of leadership opportunities every day at PepsiCo. It's a huge company, lots and lots of teams and lots and lots of growth opportunities, really good developmental environment. So I kind of rose through the ranks at PepsiCo and took on bigger and bigger teams. Uh, and it isn't easy when you get bigger teams and you've got more responsibility as a leader. Um, you know, you feel like you can be overwhelmed at times with, you know, trying to do the day-to-day and trying to be a great leader to everybody on your team. But I had some really good mentors along the way. And even since I've started my business, I feel like I'm in a leadership position every day with my clients and with salespeople. But I have some really good mentors that have helped me hone my leadership skills and get better. And the leader that I am today is so much different than the leader I was even 20 years ago when I was at PepsiCo. I've learned a lot and I continue to learn, you know, what does it take to be a great leader? And I think leaders should always be evolving and learning.

Dr. William Attaway 2:35

100% agree. Could not agree with that more. I think so often we we when we get stuck and we stop learning, we really stop leading, at least at a high level. We may still have the title, but we're not leading like we could. I was curious, you said you've had a number of mentors.

Chris Cocca 2:52

How did you find those mentors? Some came naturally, like when you're at PepsiCo, you're generally going to have people that are connected with you at a higher level that are have taken an interest in your career and your career progression. But then when you get out on your own and you're a business owner, it's hard to find a good mentor. And I just happened to get introduced to a gentleman whose name is Ken Gossnell, and he he runs an organization called CXP, and it's a peer group for Christian sales leaders. I like that. I'm sorry, Christian business owners, not just sales leaders like me. And so I found Ken or Ken found me, and I've been working with him for about eight years, and uh it's been a great experience. So it was one of those, you know, chance opportunities that I got introduced to him, but I realized that I couldn't do it on my own, and I really needed somebody to guide me along the way. And so I'm really glad that I kind of um invested that trust in Ken and it's really helped my growth.

Dr. William Attaway 3:51

I love that. And it's such an illustration of what we talk about a lot on the show, and that's the power of a coach or a mentor who's in your corner, who's gonna help you go forward.

Leap To Fractional Sales Leadership

Chris Cocca 4:00

I would highly recommend any business owner out there, if you don't have somebody that is a coach or a mentor or some formal independent relationship, that's the key. You know, when I was at PepsiCo, it really wasn't that independent. These people were working for PepsiCo. So there's only so much that you probably could share because you were working for the company and you didn't want to kind of uh, you know, come across in a bad way or say the wrong thing. But when you really have an independent and objective mentor and coach, then you really can get into the nitty-gritty of what you need to do as a leader and a business owner to get better.

Intro 4:36

Yeah.

Chris Cocca 4:37

I love that.

Dr. William Attaway 4:38

So take me through the process of going from PepsiCo to starting your own business.

Chris Cocca 4:45

What really prompted that change? That was another chance encounter. So uh I had worked in private industry for a little while after PepsiCo, but to your earlier point, I really wasn't growing. I was in the consumer package goods industry for a long, long time, kind of learned everything that I thought I could learn, even though I'm sure I could have learned more. And my career was stagnant. And then uh one of the founders of sales acceleration reached out to me on LinkedIn and said, Hey, do you know that there's this new fractional leadership world going on? And I said, Now what are you talking about? He said, Well, yeah, you know, we're we're really starting this company because we believe that there's a need in the market for small and mid-sized owners who don't have sales leadership in their organization to have a bridge, to have a senior sales leader on a part-time basis to really help stand up their sales organization, get it running the right way, be able to recruit and train and develop the right people. And he he said, Hey, this niche is already out there with marketing. It's already out there with finance. You already had fractional people probably 20 years ago in marketing and finance, but you really didn't have it in sales. And so he said, Hey, your background is perfect. You got you can go out and hit the ground running. We'll help you get running. Is this something that you'd be interested in? And it took me about six months to make the decision because I'd never been an entrepreneur before. And I know I'm speaking to a lot of entrepreneurs out there, and it's it's like walking that high high wire without a net. I was used to benefits. I was used to a salary, I was used to vacation time. All the perks of being in corporate America, that's what I was used to. And when you go out on your own, there was no guarantee of any clients, any revenue, any success. So you really started from ground zero. Um, and it was a little bit scary for me, but I believed in myself. My wife, who I've been married to for over 35 years, believed in me as well and gave me the confidence that I could go out and start a business, like many of you out there. Uh, and I haven't looked back. It's been, it has been far and away the best career move that I've ever made was to start my own business.

Dr. William Attaway 6:49

You know, I think there's such such experience in what you're saying there. A lot of people are really trapped in fear, you know, around the stability. And I put that in quotes because we all know that stability can evaporate when you're working for somebody else.

Freedom, Fear, And Owning Destiny

Chris Cocca 7:05

Especially today. Especially today. It's we live in a volatile world, William, a very volatile world. I would rather, I would rather um be in charge of my own destiny. I would rather choose my own. For the first time in my life, I actually choose my own clients and customers, as opposed to being assigned clients and customers in corporate America. Not to say I didn't love them all. If any of you are listening, I loved you all. I loved you all. So no, you know, no bias there whatsoever. But it's really great to be able to work with people that I truly love to work with and that I know I can help. It's great to be in charge of my own schedule. I mean, I work hard every day, but you know, I take time off when I need to. I invest in learning and development when I need to. I'm in charge, you know, and that's nice to be able to control that so that if I fail, it's on me. It's my business, right? But ultimately I choose my own destiny. And that's been very, very liberating for me.

Dr. William Attaway 8:01

So when you have a new engagement with a client and you come in, do they usually have systems in place and things are running along and your job is just to optimize and tune up? Or do you walk in and you're like, okay, we got to start from ground zero or somewhere in between?

Good To Great vs Ground Zero Systems

Why Every Team Needs A Real CRM

Chris Cocca 8:18

It's both. I I work through so the the former that they have some systems and need to be tuned up, those are what I call the good to great clients, and I've got a couple of those now, but they they've gotten to a certain level with the systems that they have, but they know they've got some structural weaknesses. They know certain things are not working the way that they want them to work. Maybe they're not converting at the rate that they want to convert, or maybe they're concerned about their team not growing the way that it needs to grow. So they've got all the basics. They've got CRM, they've got a sales process, they've got all the basics, but they don't have the, you know, the higher level systematic ways to break through to the next growth level. And so I'm able to help with that. And it's interesting because even those that have a documented playbook of some kind, we generally change it dramatically when I work with that company. So even though they have something that is quote unquote documented, what they end up with is something much, much better and drives a lot more consistency. So I've got that group of clients. I'd say the majority, though, fall into the I don't really have a process, I don't have a sales system, everybody's doing it differently. The owner's probably the rainmaker or they're leading sales and they're running the company and they're doing all the other 15 or 20 roles that they do in the company. That's not working very well. And it's really about building ground up a new structure. And if they have CRM, then we'll work to improve that. But in many cases, their CRM is not working, or they really don't even have a CRM. And even if you're out there and you're only a one, two, three-person shop, if you've got a pipeline that you're working against, if you've got leads that you're working against, you absolutely should have a CRM. We we live in a world of data, William. It's a data-driven world. And that's data. All of that data that flows to that CRM is extremely valuable to you. But if it exists in other systems or pieces and parts that are scattered across your company, you'll never harness that data. And you'll never get more efficient at what you're doing because you're not going to be able to make good decisions because you don't have the right data to make good decisions. So it's probably a mix between good to great and what I'd say want to be good or great, but not quite there yet. And I have a heart for both. Both of those types of customers need help. They're just at different stages of their journey and you have to treat them where they are. So those that don't really have anything, you've got to take it a little bit slower. You've got to make sure that you bring everybody with you because I'm sure in your world, it's a lot of change. Like if I start a sales system, let's say that we're doing it with your company, if I start a sales system with you and you don't have one, that's a big change. So you got to make sure that everybody that's gonna be engaging in that change and all the stakeholders are gonna be out there, you have to make sure that they're bought in, that they understand the why, that you're not just building a system and a process to track people, that you actually want to grow, that you actually want to do more great work for customers and clients, that you want people to grow their pay, compensation, you want people to achieve their personal goals. All of this should be tied together to the system that you're trying to build. So I think it's really important that you bring people with you and make sure that everybody is aligned and bought in to the best of your ability, especially with the owner. The owner definitely has to be aligned and bought in that that that's the difference, William, between a good client for me and a bad client for me. A good client recognizes that they they don't know what they don't know, they want to grow, they're willing to invest in growth. Not all companies are, but you got to be willing to invest in growth, and that they're willing to lean in and collaborate on change. If they have those four things, they're a great client. And I early on when I started my business, I had some of the clients that they were reluctant people. They were a little bit more status quo. And then when I got in there, I'm I'm a very high D on the disk spectrum. Yeah. And when I got in there and started driving, let's go, let's go, let's go, I felt like that. I had to pull the owner through the process. And I vowed never to do that going forward because it wasn't good for the owner, it wasn't good for me, and it wasn't good for the team. So the owner kind of knew that he needed to do something, but he just could not commit to that change. And I think I think some of it's the fear. Like you talked about fear earlier. Some owners are fearful of bringing that level of change and disruption to their team because they don't know how they're gonna respond. They don't know if they have the right team to even execute it. So, hey, Chris, I'm gonna we're gonna do this beautiful system and we're gonna build out a process and we're gonna train, you know, train up the team. In some cases, I would recommend to business owners out there or those that are doing business development, really analyze the team first. Understand what you have and what you don't have, because I think that you need to understand that before you embark on this structural journey of building out the right sales system. And I've got some really, really good tools to give companies a better understanding of what I call the DNA of their sales team. And it's really, really important so that they can understand what's the team going to need beyond building a sales process and a strategy. What are they gonna need for coaching and development? You know, what are they gonna need to grow? And I would say that most companies, for those that are watching, ask yourself the question for your sales team or the people that do business development, because there's a lot of companies out there that have a seller-doer model. They have people that are delivering client work, like marketing companies, for instance. You're delivering client work and you're doing business development. So you're a part-time salesperson at best, right? So I think it's really important to understand the capability of the team first. And then what do they need? The question would be do you have a development plan for those people to help them be better at sales and business development? And I would say of all the companies that I come into contact with small and mid-size, maybe 10%, maybe have a formal development plan that's documented and executed with their, with their team related to sales and business development, related to growth. And think about that, you know, most of those people have never gotten coaching or training in that area. They've just, they're natural salespeople or they're natural client engagement people, they they they're relationship builders, you know, they got great personalities, but they've never been formally trained and coached.

Intro 14:56

Yeah.

Chris Cocca 14:57

They could be so much better if they just had the right support and the right plan.

Dr. William Attaway 15:03

Well, and I would think alignment is critical too, internally with a team. You know, if you've got silos between sales and marketing, for instance, where they're not really talking to each other or worse, they're antagonistic against each other. You know, don't tell us how to do our, don't tell us how to do our, you know, I would think that's that's going to be incredibly counterproductive if you're trying to put in the system like you're describing.

Aligning Sales And Marketing KPIs

Chris Cocca 15:25

Yeah. And the system is tied to goals, right? So from a marketing standpoint, how many marketing qualified leads do they need to deliver every month? And from a sales standpoint, how many marketing qualified leads do I need to fill my font off? And what I what I work with companies on is I get the salespeople and the marketing people together and I say, let's just rebuild our KPIs. Let's just throw out, throw out the numbers that you've been using and let's talk about what we actually need to run the business and grow. And we collaborate, and and then the marketing team steps up and says, Hey, you know, we're we're currently delivering 20 a month, but we're really, we've made these investments in SEO and we're doing all this great work. We really think we can deliver 30. Great. Okay, so you're committed to 30. Let's plug that in. And then on the sales side, you've got to, they've got to know how many leads do I really need every month to fill my funnel. And so let's say it's a one-to-one, the salesperson gets those 30 leads from the marketing group. They may need 50. They may be getting 30, but they need 50. So those 20 have to be accounted for, and they've got to go out and prospect and do referral partner meetings and just get out there and do cold calling and all the things you've got to do to prospect to fill the rest of the funnel. But it's important for marketing and sales to know what the number is to and to work together. And then I think the last thing on the sales side that where sales can let marketing down a little bit, even though I'm biased towards sales, where sales can let marketing down a little bit is they don't communicate back to marketing on the quality of the leads. So the data's there. So you could see what how what the conversion level of the leads is. But I really encourage the sales team and the marketing team to get together at least once a month and talk about lead quality, lead flow. The sales team needs to communicate back to marketing. Here's what we're seeing in the market. By the way, we're now running into this issue with a competitor that we had no idea was even out there, and then they've popped up and suddenly we're losing deals. What can we do from a branding and marketing standpoint to create more value in the market so that we can better compete? It's that level of collaboration that's rare these days, especially in like a mid-sized company, that's really, really important that those two sides work together. And the marketing leader and the sales leader need to work well together if you've got a sales leader and marketing leader in your organization. Those two, those two should be joined at the head, for sure.

Dr. William Attaway 17:56

That's really good. And I think that communication is so critical, you know, in between in in your team. You know, I mean, obviously with clients, I mean, and things like that. But but inside the team, communication is one thing that I that I often see breaking down. And people just magically hope it's gonna get better.

Chris Cocca 18:13

It doesn't. It it's that's that's great.

Dr. William Attaway 18:15

That's cute, but that's not gonna happen. You know, problems don't just resolve typically. When you sweep them under the rug, they grow.

Monthly Feedback Loops And Lead Quality

Chris Cocca 18:22

Yeah, and I and I th yeah, I think you're right. They do grow if if there's no communication. One of the major areas I work on with a company is around accountability, though. And so here's what I would say that that if there's a miscommunication between sales and marketing uh and and they're not really working well together, there's some breakdown in the county somewhere. Something something isn't right. And so I really work to rebuild that with companies as well, because I think that's that's probably one of the top frustrations with a company, with at least with their sales team. And I think with the marketing team too. I'm gonna put marketing in here, even though people that are listening may disagree, that there isn't enough accountability to deliver the results and to make sure that the results are calibrated so that when things are not going the way they need to go, what changes and adjustments are we gonna make versus just going and going and going and hoping for a better outcome. When a better outcome is not coming, and you've seen six months in a row where you're not getting the pipeline that you need and you're still hoping that next month is gonna be the month. We're not gonna change anything, but miraculously it's gonna change. So I do think accountability is a big thing, and I think it's important that, like I said, the sales and uh marketing team are getting together once a month. And then even what the sales team is doing with their meetings and their one-on-ones, most struggle with that. And I definitely can help in that area because I think being able to do a really great one-on-one is difficult for a lot of companies to be productive in a one-on-one. And then how do we have the right sales meetings so that we're actually getting things done, you know, on a weekly or bi-weekly basis and we feel like we're making progress and we're surfacing up the issues that are happening so that we can have the right communication and the right discussion and solve those issues and not let them fester and hurt us, you know, over a long period of time. Yeah, that's good.

Dr. William Attaway 20:16

You know, as you as you think about your journey so far, Chris, you know, if we can take you back to when you were just stepping into the entrepreneurial world with your own company, what do you wish you would have known then that you know now? If you could go back and tell yourself one thing, what would you love to go back and tell yourself?

Accountability, One‑On‑Ones, And Meetings

Chris Cocca 20:35

For me, it would be really go deep with the right relationships early when you're building your new business. Invest the time in the right people that you can collaborate with and that will help you. I did learn that over time. And so it wasn't a big lag bear, but when I left PepsiCo, I thought that I had this great network of people that would help me in my new journey. But then what I came to find is that the world that I entered, that small and mid-sized business world, all of those corporate people didn't overlap with the small and mid-sized business world. So I almost had to start all over on building my network and building relationships. And, you know, I can remember some key early relationships that kind of got me going, but it's it's the type of thing that you really have to invest in. And I think this where people struggle is they're trying to spread themselves out way too thin across way too many activities, way too many organizations, way too many people. And I think you've got to take a step back and say, who are the ideal people in my network that I really can collaborate with? That I can help them with whatever help they need, that they are plugged into the world that I want to be plugged into, and they may be able to help me in my journey and help me grow my business. And how can I really focus on those key relationships? Relationships and give back to those people and really forge a really strong relationship that's built on trust so that you've got people that across years and years and years are going to be there with you. And I've got those people today. But if I would have gone back to day one, I think I would have found a lot of those people earlier and I would have invested more time in them to build stronger relationships versus spreading myself out way too thin. And I think a lot of people do that. I think a lot of people feel like they're early in their journey, they're just spread out too many meetings, too many events, too many activities, and they feel like the hamster on the wheel. And sometimes you just got to take a step back and say, what are the most important relationships? And how can how do I identify the people that I'm really going to be able to work with overall?

Dr. William Attaway 22:50

You know, I think that is that is something that every one of our listeners, including this guy, can benefit from. Thank you for sharing that.

What I Wish I Knew Starting Out

Chris Cocca 22:57

Happy to. Yeah. And it's it's been it's been a learning for me. It's been a journey. And I still am. I here's I'll add one more thing that I just went to an event last night in Frederick, and I'm normally not going out to a lot of events because I've got a fairly hectic schedule, uh, and I feel like I don't have time to do that. But what I've recognized is even though we're doing this over Zoom and and you and I, you know, are building a relationship, and and it's really helpful to be face to face over Zoom, you really have to be in person more. Um, you really it it's those um, you know, it's those personal moments when you're with somebody, getting to know them as a person a little bit better, hanging out and just relaxing a little bit, which can be hard to do. And so it's the time and effort and getting out there in person in this virtual world, you know, this post-COVID world where we all kind of work through screens and we're all working through Teams or Zoom or whatever, and forcing yourself back out in the world to break bread or do something personal with somebody is uh is a challenge for busy business owners. But I'm dedicated to doing more of that this year. And last night, even though I thought going out there, gosh, you know, I've just got so much to do. I don't know if I can do this. I was really happy that I went to the event last night and it really, really felt good. But back to the original point, I'm not gonna go to an event that I feel like is not that I can't be a good connector in that event, that I'm not a good fit for that event just because I'm invited. So I would say choose your relationships and choose your events and make sure it's your precious time. You've got family, you've got other things going on in your life. There's only so much time. I would say be very, very particular about the meetings and the events that you go to. Good counsel.

Dr. William Attaway 24:49

Always more opportunities, but to be judicious. There you go. Judicious is is the key for sure. That's the key. Last question I'll ask you, Chris. Uh you know, I ask all of our guests this that, you know, often we are continual learners when we are operating at the level that that we're at. Is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders who are listening?

Chris Cocca 25:10

I'll recommend a pretty common book that's not a sales book, but is a business book that I think a lot of people are familiar with or maybe have heard of. It's called Traction by Gino Wick. And it is the EOS book. So um I I've got it on my bookshelf behind me. I have a lot of clients that run on EOS and use traction. It's a great way to run your business. It's a great way to gain traction and stability in your business. It's great for a leadership team. And then what I do, William, is within that book, the concept of the meeting is called an L10 meeting. And I think a lot of listeners out there struggle with their meetings, struggle with their team meetings. So the concept is would you rate your meeting a 10 out of 10? And there's there's a structure there within traction. So let's say that I'm going to be working with your company, William, and you you're not running on EOS. We will do a sales L10 meeting, and I will introduce you to EOS by building out the right sales meeting. And that structure, because I I ran big, big sales meetings at at PepsiCo, but this structure, this L10 structure, I think is the best meeting structure, especially on the sales side and the leadership team side. So love the book. Easy to read, easy to understand, and uh and I would highly recommend. I love it.

Dr. William Attaway 26:36

A big fan of traction and EOS. Uh Rocket Fuel really changed my perspective when I read that the first time. I was like, oh my goodness.

Chris Cocca 26:43

There are many books, and Rocket Fuel is another EOS-related book that I've read that is great. So good.

Deep Relationships And In‑Person Networking

Dr. William Attaway 26:50

Chris, this is this has been a masterclass in the power and the value of the right sales system. I'm so grateful to you for sharing just so much today from your experience and your work with your clients. I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you and continue to learn more from you and about what you do and how they could engage with you. What's the best way for them to do that?

Chris Cocca 27:12

I'd say LinkedIn is probably the easiest. If you're on LinkedIn, I should be the only Chris Coca, C-H-R-I-S-C-O-C-C A. I should be the only Chris Coca on LinkedIn. You should be able to find me. So reach out to me, connect with me on LinkedIn. My email address is C Coka at salesacceleration.com. So it's C C O C C A at Sales S E L E S X C L E R A T I O N dot com. Or you can just call me. My I'll give you my phone number. My phone number is 918-409-9559. I'd be happy to learn more about anybody that's out there that's listening that's curious and really wants to figure out a better sales system and wants to grow their team, wants to grow and scale their business. I have a heart for helping those firms scale and grow and building the legacy that you want to build. So I would be happy to have a conversation anytime.

Dr. William Attaway 28:08

We will have all those links and info in the show notes. Chris, thank you for your time and your expertise today.

Chris Cocca 28:15

All right. Thank you very much, William. I really appreciate you having me.