Are Your Values Real? The Leadership Pressure Test (with Jon Sheldon)

The leadership pressure test reveals what a leader has already practiced. In this episode, I sit down with Jon Sheldon, founder of BelleauWood Coaching, to explore the leadership pressure test through lessons he learned as a Marine squad leader and Fortune 500 sales executive.

Jon explains why clear decisions begin with knowing yourself. His professional blueprint centers on purpose, vision, the environment where you thrive, and what motivates you. Then he pressure-tests those answers against real behavior. Courage is more than a value on paper. A leader has to show where courage held and where it gave way.

We also talk about radical honesty, the cost of making firm calls, and the discipline of keeping the mission in view when emotion runs high. Jon shares a simple framework for those moments: define the mission, name the obstacle, and choose the first action. If you lead a team through growth or uncertainty, this conversation offers a grounded way to respond with clarity.

Chapter Breakdown

• 00:00 Meet Jon Sheldon: Marine Leader and Executive Coach
• 02:29 How Responsibility Forged a Leader
• 05:12 Why Mistakes Are Inevitable Under Pressure
• 06:40 Learning to Think 13 Moves Ahead
• 08:54 The Mission, Obstacle, Actions Framework
• 10:06 Build Your Professional Leadership Blueprint
• 13:33 Pressure-Test the Leader You Claim to Be
• 15:26 Why a Four-Hour Seminar Cannot Build a Leader
• 17:49 Radical Honesty and the Courage to Be Unpopular
• 20:35 The Cost and Loneliness of Leadership
• 24:20 Protect Time to Keep Growing as a Leader
• 29:19 Books That Make Leadership Practical

Books Mentioned

• The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday
• Leadership Strategy and Tactics: Field Manual by Jocko Willink
• Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
• Because I Said I Would by Alex Sheen
• Your Desired Future by Dr. Henry Cloud
• A Return on Failure by John C. Maxwell

Connect with Jon Sheldon

Visit BelleauWood Coaching, connect with Jon on LinkedIn, or follow @belleauwood_coaching on Instagram.

I want to invite you to check out the Committed Mastermind, a community I help lead along with world-class leaders like JC and Karen Hite, Vinnie Fisher, and Jonathan Mast, plus incredible mentors like Dr. Gary Chapman, author of The 5 Love Languages, and many others.

This is for entrepreneurs who want to build a thriving business without sacrificing their faith, their family, or their health.

Check out the Committed Mastermind at https://committedmastermind.com/

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Dr. William Attaway 1:21

I'm so excited today to have John Sheldon on the podcast. John is a leadership, growth, and small unit coach who helps high performers lead with authenticity, operate in alignment, and grow with purpose. His background as a Marine squad leader and Fortune 500 sales executive shaped how he approaches clarity, discipline, and resilience, especially under pressure. Now he works with individuals and teams to build performance systems that scale sustainably without losing what matters most. His coaching is grounded in stoic calm, radical honesty, and a belief that real growth starts with owning the truth. John, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Intro 2:13

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host, author, and leadership and executive coach, Dr. William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway 2:31

I'd love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, John, particularly about your journey and development as a leader. How'd you get started? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

I think in a formal way, it was really when I joined the Marines, but in an informal way, it was kind of always inside of me. Um even going back into high school days of you know being captains of teams and you know, really diving into what that really meant of what what care for others, what elevating others and bigger than yourself uh kind of mentality. I feel like I've always had that. I think that came from my parents. They're they're I I I love them quite a bit and they're they're very giving people and they've really embodied that themselves of just like really putting others first. And I think that's one of the catalysts of uh of leadership in general is elevating others. And so I would take it all the way back to to honestly my teens, but where that really manifested in a very, very

John’s Leadership Roots In The Marines

SPEAKER_01 3:31

real way was in in in the Marines and and progressing through that, not not because I necessarily wanted to, obviously it's very competitive, but because that it just was baked inside of me, I feel like from a pretty young age of of what it meant to lead.

Dr. William Attaway 3:47

So as you as you entered the core, you know, I'm I'm guessing you didn't start as a squad leader.

unknown 3:54

Right.

Dr. William Attaway 3:55

So what was that journey like from where you started to building into that leadership role?

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Uh I think it's it really it really did actually did start though in boot camp. Um I was what's called uh the guide of our boot camp platoon. And that that came with with with a lot of responsibility. You know, at least back then it felt like a lot of responsibility. I don't know how much of you actually had looking back at it, but uh and then it really this desire to perform as a team. And I think that's the I just mentioned it before, you know, the the Marine Corps is very, very competitive. And on my first deployment, I was what's called a point man. And so I was the the first point man in in in our platoon. And um I think through I think through that and shaping responsibility, I think that had a lot to do with it. You you know, I was in charge of creating the route and navigation on the patrol, you know, oftentimes I was the first guy through the door. And I think I think responsibility is a massive term that we need to use in leadership, and I think that's primarily where it came from, whether that was forced upon me or whether I took that, I think more of the latter, probably a mixture of the two, because the Marines and the Corps needs leaders, right? And that's that's kind of where it started was owning that role in its entirety, owning what it meant to be truly a team and and and perform as such, right? And that's kind of how I always thought about it. I, you know, of course you think about I. It'd be silly to say like I'm just this totally like separate person than others, you know. But of course you think about yourself. But I think primarily that's where it always came back for me was this desire to make sure that the Marines around me were taken care of. I cared, I had conversations, I got to know everybody around me. And I think that's a big piece of leadership. It's you gotta know who you're actually leading. And even at that point in time, I wasn't. I'd be lying back then if, you know, as an 18-year-old, if probably ego didn't come into play there. Like just be honest with ourselves. I I think that's probably, hey, I want to be, I want to be the best. That's, you know, as a Marine, I'm sure most Marines say this. That's why I joined the Marine Corps was to be the best. And there was there's an aspect of that too, of wanting to be the best once I got there, too. And that is definitely ego driven for sure. So I don't think that we could we can rule that out either. But that morphs into something much more pure because it has to. Because once you become a leader, you it's not about you anymore. It can't be. It's an antithesis of leadership, in my opinion.

Dr. William Attaway 6:26

I I would agree with you. You know, you you've been in environments in situations that are incredibly high pressure, more so than than many of our listeners can grab on to. You know, in the middle of that type of a high pressure environment, that type of a pressure cooker. What are some of the things that you learned about leadership and particularly about your own leadership?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

First and foremost is that you're gonna make mistakes. And I don't think we talk about that enough as leaders. You're gonna make, you're gonna make mistakes. And I think coming to grips with that was a hard lesson that we all had to learn. It's not gonna be perfect, it's not gonna be patrol, but it's it's how you respond to that, I think is where I learned most about keeping a cool head, sticking to systems, remembering and focusing in on your training and again look looking out for others. Uh, I think in in the moment we go back to systematic leadership, I think, is is I think really, really helpful. And creating structure and system in up in here of what's what is the most important. Is it self-preservation? I am gonna screw up. How do I react to that? You know, there's this very good book. I'm not sure if you've you've heard of it. Um, I think it's a very good book, anyways, by Ryan Holliday called Uh, The Obstacle is the Way. And it's a great book. Yes. And I think that's a really good lesson on high pressure leadership is if you can embody that mindset, that the obstacle then becomes the way. That's a very deep leadership trait, right? Not viewing it as and not overreacting, but really understanding um and taking a second to understand your situation instead of just reacting. It's one of those leadership traits that I think, again, most leaders need to have is I call it like thinking 13 moves ahead. That's generally speaking what grandmasters in chess do, at least 13 moves ahead. And I think that's what you have to embody too, is not getting sucked into the moment and being able to step away almost from your situation and say, what's really going on here? And do it super, super quickly. Now, again, we're all going to screw up and there's not even close to that. I was even remotely perfect in that in that regard. But it's the conscious mindset of needing to step away from that environment. To, you know, there's a this is a dichotomy, right? Of leading from the front, but also making sure that you can see the battlefield. And I don't know if most leaders take that in the moment as seriously as they should. A lot of times, leaders tend to want to jump in and solve problems really, really quickly. And that actually always isn't the best, the best move.

Dr. William Attaway 8:50

When you talk about building systems, and particularly mental systems and the mindset that you're forming, you're you it sounds like a little bit like you're talking about muscle memory. Like you're building something so that when the pressure comes, that you're not having to think through and make decisions and what should I do. You've already pre-decided that. You you've created that framework already, and now you're just executing on what you pre-decided. Would that be accurate?

SPEAKER_01 9:14

I'll reiterate that point, and it's coming to the understanding that your framework, no matter how good you make it, is never going to be perfect. It just has to be good enough for you.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

You know? Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Hmm.

Dr. William Attaway 9:24

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

That's good.

Staying Calm When Pressure Hits

Dr. William Attaway 9:26

That's good. I've heard the phrase that uh no plan survives first contact with the enemy, you know, on a battlefield. Right. Like, you know, the best plan in the world. And I think that adaptability and that ability to pivot is rooted inside of what you're describing. You know, I I I find I'm a planner, that's how I work. I think in systems, I think in frameworks. And that's that's important. That's part of how I how I work, how I live. But I find that inside that planning, there is tremendous flexibility. There has to be. And it has to be. Because life dude, exactly. Who can orchestrate every detail, and particularly when it involves other people? If you try, that's called manipulation. Let's not do that. That's not leadership.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

I 100% agree. And that comes down to, again, these these frameworks. You know, one of the ones that I use is just what I call your what's what's your MOA, what's your mission obstacle actions. Like, what is the mission? What stands in your way, and what's the first step? It's very basic and very, but it's also very clear. And oftentimes we get too caught up, we get way too caught up in every uh single aspect, but in the moment, you just need to make decisions. You know, again, even if it's not the right one, you just need to make a decision. Not to make a decision. In decision. Is a decision. Yeah, you just nailed it.

Dr. William Attaway 10:49

Is a decision. Yeah.

unknown 10:51

Right. Yeah.

Dr. William Attaway 10:53

Yeah, it is. It really is. You know, not to choose is to choose. So as you as you now have moved into the coaching sphere and you're coaching in boardrooms, coaching executives, coaching teams, you know, who have pressure of a different sort. You know, they may not have bullets flying in their direction, right? Not literally, but metaphorically all day long. So how do you take this principle of leading under pressure and thriving under pressure? How do you take that into uh a corporate or something?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

I'm gonna I'm gonna take this and it this there's a there's a foundational piece here that I think is massively important to leadership, and that's that's knowing yourself. And so that's that's the first thing is like what type of leader are you and what what really matters to you? And I I break that down into four major topics. This is not like an assessment like a like a disc or a brickman or or whatever, pick your Myers Briggs, like pick your poison. It's not a psychological assessment, but it's really just diving into who you are and what I call your your professional blueprint. And that's what's your purpose, what's your vision, what is your ecosystem that you thrive in, and what are your motivators? And why I bring that up as the first piece of leadership is I think that you not only need to know that about yourself, but you need to know that about what who you're leading. And I don't think corporate America does a great job at that piece of it. Where we we try and do this one size fits all leadership style. Like whatever you were kind of born with is whatever you get, and then whatever leader that you have is whatever leader that you get. It really just shouldn't be that way. Should we have pillars of leadership? Of course. And everyone should be able to find those by themselves. There's great, great, there's enough books out there to line a massive the Library of Alexandria, probably, you know, if if we could ever find those books, like you know, that there's probably enough in there, and you know, the John Maxwell's of the world and and the Jacko Willen's of the world, incredible books, incredible leaders. Well, I think we need to define those things for ourselves, too. What type of leader do you want to be? And then who are you leading? That goes way beyond combat. That goes directly into the boardroom, and that's where I find that corporate America doesn't do a good enough job. Is a lot of times the leaders of organizations, and you'll probably connect with this, leaders of organizations, generally speaking, are in a sales organization, it's hey, who sold the most? Who's that guy? Like they always think about simply just that lead-by-example piece. Like, well, we want to encourage people to do this or revenue, whatever. We're gonna promote that person instead of looking at real leadership qualities or who's actually dove deep into their people. And that's the first thing. And then the next thing is what we just described too of what leadership qualities do you want to embody? What type of leader are you going to be? We don't do it, we do we don't do a good enough job at that. We go to symposiums and and learn and in corporate jargon and all that stuff's, I think, really important for corporate revenue. But when we're talking about just simply leadership, we don't spend enough time thinking about the individual leader that they're going to be and who they want to be. Not who they're told to be. You can't just be a leader that you're told to be. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't. So you got to figure that out. And we never take the time on the front end. That's where I think the most important work does. Practical application is gonna come, but you have to have something to practic, like practically applicate, right? Just like you said, like muscle memory. We have to have a foundation for that. We have to have the blueprint for that of how how we're gonna show up as a leader. So that's where I think it starts first, and then you morph it, right? What does the organization need? Like, what are you and what purpose do you serve? And creating clear boundaries and never crossing the line, and this rubs people the wrong way sometimes, never crossing that line between sales management or management and leadership. They're two different things.

Dr. William Attaway 14:38

So, so if someone's listening, they're like, okay, I get what you're saying. I think you're you're spot on. There's not a one size fits all here. How do you discover or how do you help people discover their personal blueprint? Like, how do you help them to understand how they are wired as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 14:56

So

Systems That Guide Fast Decisions

SPEAKER_01 14:56

we already went over those, the four things that I think people need to figure out, but it then we have to pressure test those things too. Right. It's one say to it's one thing, so we'll use integrity because that's what's something that most people will say. Like, leaders should be have integrity. Agreed. 100% agreed, right? Prove it. Show me, show me when you have when your integrity has been called into question and how did you react? Did you fail? Did you succeed? There's no right or wrong answer. It's just how did you react? Because we need to know that. And if we don't have that yet, so that's how you're testing.

Dr. William Attaway 15:28

I see.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

So you're you're not just taking their word for it. We got we got to test vision. We have to test purpose, we have to test your ecosystem and your motivators. We need to test these leadership traits that you claim are super important to you. Courage is one. Courage is one of mine. I think people, leaders should be courageous, right? Great, prove it. Why? In what ways have you been courageous? In what ways haven't you been? And having those really uncomfortable conversations because a leader has to be at least honest with themselves. You can't be honest with others if you're not honest with yourself.

Dr. William Attaway 15:59

You know, I think I think there's so much value in what you're describing here, John. This to understand how you are wired first, to start there, then begin to understand how your team, how the people around you are wired so that you can lead them better. That's a that's a process. This is not something that happens in a day or that you're gonna have a meeting and 60 minutes later walk out having all of this accomplished. This takes some time. It takes time.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

And it should take time, right? We we should be identifying leaders and identifying those key aspects of ourselves before we're just thrust into it. We'll go back to the Marine Corps for an example, right? We, you know, we we would train and clear thousands of rooms before we ever deployed. You would lead hundreds of fake patrols and fake missions in training and practically practically applicating your leadership style and in situations before you ever did it in real time. But in in corporations, we send people to a four-hour seminar and they're like, here we are. Here's your team, right? That's not fair. That's not fair to anybody, truthfully. You know, we need to do a better job on the front end of testing these things, you know, and that's where you're gonna get real good results. Real good results, good results.

Dr. William Attaway 17:15

Well, and I really like the the pressure testing. I think that that's so that's so good. You know, so many tools, Myers brings, so many different tools that will help you understand personality, help you understand some of the internal motivations. Those are great. That's a great starting point. But the pressure testing is critical, I think, because then you're saying, okay, is that really true of you? Or is that aspirational? You know, I I love what James Clear wrote about atomic habits, right? We don't we don't rise to the level of our aspirations and our goals and our dreams. We fall to the level of our systems, right? And I think that's so critical when it comes to what you're describing here. Those four areas, it's very easy to give an aspirational answer. You know, who I who I would love to be, who I would like, what I would like to be trying to do. But the pressure testing, that's really gonna force you to say, is this really accurate? Or is it aspirational? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

And when we get into again, morphing this more into like small business or corporate America, again, most of the time this leadership conversation comes with added responsibility. And also you hear this all the time. Well, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be in charge of more people without more pay. That's fair, but that's also not leadership in a in a in a big way, you know? And I think a lot of people need to get get comfortable with that, and organizations do too, of like, hey, no, we're gonna, we're gonna test you out here. We're not just gonna give you the title and the like, no, why don't we give you some responsibility? Why don't we give you some real conversations, help you practice having tough conversations with people, being firm and fair before we just let you go out into the wild and start leading people, you know, and and again, this goes back to this presser testing. Like, I think we should do a better job at that. I think it's important.

Dr. William Attaway 19:04

I I would agree completely. Yeah, I said earlier that your your coaching is grounded in three things in stoic calm, in radical honesty, and a belief that real growth starts with owning

The Personal Blueprint For Corporate Leaders

Dr. William Attaway 19:16

the truth. That's an interesting blend. Can you speak into that a little bit and help me understand how you how you came up with that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

I think it goes into a kind of our deeper conversation here. I I I don't think people are honest with themselves enough when we get into this sphere. And I think that's where that radical honesty comes piece comes in. It's like, can are we able to be radically honest when it's really, really uncomfortable? And I was just on a phone call with a leader literally an hour ago, and he and he posed this question about a person that he was influencing, and this was the question, and this was the answer. It's like, yeah, you're gonna have to get radically honest in your conversations with them tactfully, and I want to put put that out there, right? Tactfully, but that's part of a leader, and it's not always popular, and this is where people William, this is where in my opinion, uh where people really struggle in this aspect of it is you're not always gonna be popular. And and you're not always gonna be liked. And if you are, you're probably, in my opinion, probably not doing it the best you probably could, because there's some harsh conversations, direct conversations, honest conversations around alignment that you need to have. And it's getting over that fear and and again having the team first mentality of, yeah, this conversation might be uncomfortable. I might be the bad guy here to you. But in order for us to move forward as a unit, we need to have these tough conversations. I I was uh I'll give you another example. I was meeting with a client like a couple weeks ago, and you know, they were an individual client and and sorry, a corporate client of mine, and now they've they've hired me individually as they've progressed in their own leadership too. And I said, you know, uh, I won't use his name, but I said, uh, we'll just call him Jeff for this conversation. He said, Jeff, uh, did you know in the past did I ever like really rub you the wrong way as far as like giving you advice and stuff? And he's like, Yeah, of course. Like, yeah, of course I did. And I said, Do you think that was an accident? And he goes, Well, what do you mean? I go, no, sometimes a leader needs to be the bad guy. Some and and did it, did it inspire change? Did it inspire growth within yourself? And he's like, Yeah, I go, that that that is a piece of that I'm gonna teach you now of that's something that you need to do with these people that you're leading right now. Sometimes you're gonna have to be the bad guy, you know, and you're gonna have to be comfortable with that. And yeah, you might not get invited to the next round of happy hour. But that's the burden, and this is where we get to with the cost. And this is something that I I'm so passionate about, is most leaders never accept the cost of being a leader.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

And sometimes that's sometimes that can be lonely. That's really good, man. And I think you're spot on.

Dr. William Attaway 22:03

I think leadership when it's done right can be lonely. Because, like you say, it's not always going to be, you know, just daisies and butterflies. Not if you're doing it right. I had a a mentor of mine years and years ago say, you know, he he made a hard call, had a hard conversation with with his team in this case. And he kind of chuckled and he said, and that was the day they stopped carrying a picture of me in their wallet. And I said, Okay, yeah, because sometimes that's what it takes. Now, the end result of that conversation was that everybody stepped into a different level of performance. Right. That's what he was calling them into. But boy, in the moment, nobody's clapping like a seal. Nobody's thrilled, right? And I think I think that is one of the costs of leadership that is not spoken about enough.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

I think you're exactly not because everybody, everybody wants to put on a facade is maybe too strong of a word, but it's something like that. Like they they want to be, they want to be liked, you know, uh which you should, it's again, it's not being you don't need to be an a hole, all right? I think that's the biggest misconception with good military leadership. I think you see it on the movies of screaming, yelling, blah, blah, blah. But really, I think Band of Brothers and Captain Winter's. And the and who depict like the depiction of Captain Winters, I think that is what true military leadership actually is. And what I've what I've experienced, and those examples are what you really need to take after. It's like it's not all the yelling and screaming stuff. That's that's Hollywood, right? The best leaders make hard calls, firm calls. They're direct, but they're fair. You know, they they put their men above all. You know, but understand that you have a mission and it is team first in its mission. And that's that is also, again, where these hard calls

Pressure Testing Values Like Integrity

SPEAKER_01 25:08

have to come from and that radical honesty, that alignment. Well, somebody has to be focused on the mission win. Win, yes, thank you.

Dr. William Attaway 25:16

Not my preferences, right? Nobody somebody has to be focused on that. And if it's not the leader, it won't be anybody. I think it's the leader's responsibility to make sure the mission always wins. We're gonna have a disagreement, we're gonna have a conversation, that's great, and we should do that and let's let's talk it out. But in the end, the mission wants to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

That's what I meant earlier when I said that you got to take yourself out of that situation and be able to be focused. You know?

unknown 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

You know, it's I think it's it's in it's an interesting concept of um, you know, one of the things that they actually teach you is, you know, if if somebody does get injured in in combat, you know, I think again, Hollywood depicts uh these really careless things that happen where people run out and there's this big this big thing, you know, and sometimes that is kind of how it is. And I'm not speaking to if any, you know, all the other vets out there listening to this, like everyone's experience has been different, right? But it's it it you have to you have to analyze the threat first, and that's where that obstacle becomes the way. You know, if if somebody you have to be able to keep that mission or that that level head first and say, no, no, no, guys, I know this is really emotional. We have to figure this out first. Yes. We have to get through this first, otherwise much worse things can potentially happen. And keeping that mission focused, like you just mentioned, I think is huge.

Dr. William Attaway 26:30

Well, and obstacles abound wherever you lead. Whatever you lead. You're never gonna have an obstacle-free leadership life. At least if anybody has, I'd love for you to contact me because you're next on the show. That's not that's not been anybody's story, right? That has not been anybody's story that I know. You know, and I I I look at your journey and I think, my goodness, you know, you are leading at a higher level today than you were five years ago. More is asked of you, more is demanded of you. And that same thing is gonna be true five, ten years from now. So how are you leveling up your game? How are you making sure that you are developing the leadership skills that are gonna be needed in the day? Phenomenal question.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

And I love talking about it. So Fridays for me, outside of things like a podcast, are are totally set aside for personal and professional development. And and so I think a part of it is a very practical step. It's setting the time aside. You know, I I could I could keep client meetings on a Friday, but then I wouldn't be like you just said, leveling up. And isn't that my duty as a leader? Isn't it to continue leveling up myself if that's what I'm trying to coach other people on doing? Yeah, I need to I need to act that that way as well. So I think that's a piece of it, is doing what you preach, right? Doing what you say you're gonna do. What I call, you know, Alex Sheen wrote a great book called Uh, Because I Said I Would. And being a promise keeper, I think is an incredibly underrated leadership trait. You never hear about it. But the like everyone again says integrity, great, great leadership trait, right? But the action is promise keeping. And promise keeping to yourself. And so that's one very practical way. The other thing is trying to keep your ego in as much check as you possibly can and humbling yourself. Like the Roman emperors, when they had, you know, one of their servants walk next to them and say, You're just a man. You know, and I'm not not not trying to get egotistical here, but you know, when you're trying, when you're giving so much advice and coaching so many people and organizations all the time, you have to make sure that you have your own self. So you gotta make sure that you have your own coach. You gotta make sure that you have leaders that you look up to and you can ask questions to and vent to. You know, and I think again, that's practicing what you preach. So I think those are two really practical steps. And then I look for people outside the box. I think I, you know, one thing that we didn't talk about is I spend a significant amount of time in in corporate America, right? And I think uh travesty in whatever industry, whether it's finance, real estate, textile, whatever it might be, call it out. You end up going to a lot of conferences and listening to a lot of people in a really large bubble. And so one of the things that I think you need to do is challenge your own beliefs. Search people that are gonna challenge you. Read books that you normally wouldn't that that are almost against maybe what you believe and learn that other side. I think that's a piece of leadership. I do. I think being objective is really a massive piece of leadership. It's being objective as you can. Everyone has some biases, obviously. But 100%.

Dr. William Attaway 29:34

It's very, very difficult to see the whole picture when you're in the frame. You know, it's very difficult to see your own blonts spots. And and I'm so glad you brought this up that you know, you do have people who speak into your life. You do have people who are who are coaching you and helping you to develop, because I think that is the mark of somebody who is growing and will continue to grow because you have a humble and teachable spirit.

Radical Honesty And The Cost Of Leadership

Dr. William Attaway 29:56

And the minute we lose that, I think we're done as leaders. Yeah. We may still have the title.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, ego is the enemy, right? Um important. You know, my my wife is actually very good at calling me out. But in a very, very, and I mean that I know lightheartedly, but also in a really good way. Um, recently she we were we were talking about something about you know running the business and and it being busy and stressful, which is and call about the best problem to have, right? But she's like, you know, maybe you should she literally around a walk, she says, maybe you should practice what you preach a little bit and uh kind of maybe look at hiring somebody. I'm like, and I do have a couple of 1099s, but yeah, you know, that's that in itself is leadership, that tough, brutal, kind of harsh conversation of that's right, yeah, dude, like what are you doing? And it's not always from, and this is where I think is really important too, William. Most people, when they're trying to level up, they only look at people that are vastly far more experienced than them, that have like again, we we mentioned some of the great leaders out there that have written really great books, and those are really, really important. But if you're not opening your mind to every person that you're interacting with, you know, I I think you're you're messing up too. Don't don't discredit the person that is able to see your life on a daily basis that you just don't want to hear because you don't think that they're at your level. Hmm, okay, but they can still see what you how you're showing up, and their their their opinion should hold some sort of weight if they're in your circle.

Dr. William Attaway 31:22

I I've often said you can learn from anybody. Right. If you have a teachable spirit. Sometimes you learn what not to do, but that can be incredibly valuable, you know? But it's the mindset that you have. The mindset, if you have a mindset of a teachable spirit, of a learner.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

I love that phrase you just said teachable spirit. I don't think I've heard that before. I I I really appreciate that. I thank you. Thanks for sharing that with me. No, a hundred percent.

Dr. William Attaway 31:46

Well, man, this is this has been a this has been a gift to spend this time with you. I'm so grateful for your generosity. You know, you've mentioned a couple of books along the way, but I always ask, is there a is there a book that's made a really big difference in your journey that you'd recommend?

SPEAKER_01 31:59

On leadership, I think one of the best books I've read in the last five years is actually so everybody knows Jocko Willink's uh extreme ownership book. I think that's his most famous one. I'll I'll be very open. I actually haven't read that one. Um I have read his Leadership Strategies and Tactics Field Guide. It's an incredibly practical book for leaders. Um that's one of a big one. And then a non-leadership book that I think is just very, very good is Chris Voss's Never Split the Difference. Great book. Yeah. Yeah, great book. Just I read that when I was, I live I'm up, I live in upstate New York, and I was traveling to go do some snowboarding with some old Marine Corps friends in Vermont. It's about a six-hour drive, and I listened to that on the way, and luckily I had three days to kind of like digest that in my brain, and I was like, man, this is that's fantastic. I could use this, I could really use this. Again, very, very practical book, you know. But those are the two that immediately pop into my mind when those people ask those questions. One on leadership and one just I think you can use every single day. Yeah. What about yourself? I'd love to hear your your recommendations.

Dr. William Attaway 33:05

My goodness. Well, that's uh, you know, I don't I don't get asked that usually uh on the show. That's good. You know, I'll tell you, right now, I'm reading a book. This one is the newest book by Henry Cloud. It's called Your Desired Future. Henry Cloud, I've I have learned from for the last 25 years. A tremendous writer, a clinical psychologist who moved into the leadership coaching space and just a brilliant thinker who phrases things in ways that I find very valuable and I share, I share often. Uh the other one, uh, and I just I just saw John a few weeks ago at a conference, how to get a return on failure. And, you know, this is his third book on failure. And he was he was talking about that and he said he said he said, you know, when he wrote his first one, he he said to his uh he said to his wife, he said, you know, this uh I've put I've put everything that I know about failure in here. And she said, Really? Everything? He said, I think this may be a series.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

This is his third book on failure. I haven't heard that one either. I'm gonna pick them up. I'll pick both those up. Yeah. I'm in the mood for a good leadership book, I'll be honest. So I'm I'm looking forward to it.

Dr. William Attaway 34:12

Well, that one, that one is good because it's really around mindset and developing a mindset around how we think about failure. You know, we all we so often as leaders want to avoid failure at all costs. And John says, that's the wrong mindset. Like if you avoid failure at all costs, you are also avoiding success.

Leveling Up Through Learning And Coaching

unknown 34:31

Absolutely.

Dr. William Attaway 34:32

Because the two are linked. And you can't see one as the enemy and one as the as the win. They're both part of the win. So that's that's what I'm reading right now that I'm finding very, very helpful. I appreciate that. These writers. John, I I could talk to you for another hour. I just think there's so much synergy here, and uh I love what you're sharing, and I'm so grateful to you for being on the show. I know our listeners are going to want to stay connected to you, continue to learn more from you and about what you're doing. But what's the best way for them to do that?

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Yeah, thanks for asking, William. Uh so my my business name is Bellowood Coaching. So you you can look me up at bellawood.coach, which is my website. Bellowood underscore coaching is my Instagram and John Sheldon on LinkedIn. I know it's hard to spell. I can't get rid of the name. It means something very, very deep to me and why I started the coaching company and a very deep part of what I believe leadership is. So it's here to stay. It does make people hard to find me. But uh yeah, it's it's and if you have it in the notes, it's it's bellowwood.coach, bellowwood underscore coaching, or John Sheldon.

Dr. William Attaway 35:37

We will have all those links in the show notes.