One Hell Of A Life Outdoor Podcast
The One Hell Of A Life Outdoor Podcast hosted by father-son duo Tony Vogel and Tristan Vogel, Owners of One Hell Of A Life Outdoors . Our passion lies in bringing every hunter the REALITY of what it REALLY takes to hunt their target animal while equipping them with the knowledge to be a successful hunter and promoting the lost "old school values" that laid the foundation for the sport we love so much today.
One Hell Of A Life Outdoor Podcast
Inside UF’s Wild Turkey Research In Florida | Dr. Kelly O'Neil
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We talk with Dr. Kelly O’Neill from the UF Game Lab about what turkey research in Florida actually looks like and why solid data matters before anyone changes regulations. We get into captive poult studies, habitat management, and the Florida specific challenges that can make or break Osceola and Eastern turkey survival.
• UF Game Lab’s statewide turkey research on survival, nesting success, and reproduction
• Building a captive turkey population from abandoned and depredated nests
• How hunting funding and conservation dollars shape research and policy
• Development, habitat fragmentation, and the Florida Wildlife Corridor
• Why poults are so fragile and why early growth is everything
• Poult mortality ranges, limited tracking data, and why consistent methods matter
• Osceola and Eastern differences that look physical more than behavioral
• Vegetation structure trials that test how habitat affects foraging and growth
• Poult diet basics with insects driving early protein needs
• Prescribed burning timing and why one to two years post burn matters
• Turkeys as predator prey and a possible seed dispersal species
• Landowner habitat principles including nesting cover, brood areas, roost sites, and not mowing nests
• Why turkey habitat often helps many other species too
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Meet UF Game Lab Turkey Research
SPEAKER_02What's going on, guys? Tristan and Tony back with another episode of the One Hove Life Outdoor Podcast. Today we got um Dr. Kelly O'Neill from UF Game Lab in Florida, and they specialize in all kinds of cool turkey research. And obviously with the time of year, um we're excited to have her on. And also, you if you guys listen to us, you know we care a lot about Florida, just the overall conservation of different species there and um such a unique landscape. So uh Dr. Kelly, thank you for taking the time to um come on today and would love to just uh if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and just telling us a little bit about UF Game Lab. What'd you guys do there?
SPEAKER_03Okay, yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk turkeys with you guys. Um, so yeah, I'm a postdoctoral associate at the UF Game Lab at the University of Florida, and what we do generally at the UF Game Lab is basically any turkey research that you can think of. Um we are trying to understand what influences turkey populations um both in the wild by monitoring um populations of birds in the field, um, their survival, their nesting success, and so on. Um, and also we have a captive turkey population. So my position basically I was hired to start up a captive turkey population. Um, and I did that last spring. Um, so we were collecting eggs from nests that were abandoned or where the hen got predated on the nest. And um we were able to get this information because we had a whole bunch of tagged turkeys all the way across the state of Florida, both in the Osseola and the Eastern Range. And so we brought these guys back to our field station, hatched them, um, imprinted them to human researchers, and uh raised them. And uh we still have them today. So they're almost a year old, and we've been able to do all kinds of cool research with them at different life stages that we can't do with wild birds.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, that's that's super um, you know, super gratifying, I'm sure, just to take these birds that were, you know, otherwise not going to make it and then get all this great research, you know, as they as they've grown that, like you said, you wouldn't have had access to. Um go ahead, Dad.
SPEAKER_01No, I was just gonna say, as has there been a program like that, or is this the first time that uh um a captive uh program like that's been in place?
SPEAKER_03Um so there have been a couple um there have been a couple similar things. Like there was one study where they did collect eggs from the wild to do a um a short test on the colts, um like looking at you know what insects they were catching when they put them outside to forage for a short period of time. Um, but they did not keep them long term, so they were kind of just taking them just for the specific purpose of testing one thing. Um, there was also a captive turkey population in the past that was um looking at uh female uh mate choice. Um and uh I'm not a hundred percent sure how long they kept them around or what kind of like how ecologically relevant those conditions were. But as far as I know, there's nothing else on the scale of what we have or nothing else going on currently, like what we're doing.
Why Florida Funds Turkey Studies
SPEAKER_02Now it was like the motivation uh to start this program. I mean, Florida's turkey population as a whole, I mean, is is it like other states where there is some decline and that's kind of why they wanted to start this program? Or what was like the the 30,000-foot reason they wanted to?
SPEAKER_03So basically the reason was um the funding that kind of originally um we got to start this was from the state of Florida, and they just wanted us to answer the question of what is going on with turkey populations? Are they stable? Are they declining or not? Because like to actually say whether populations are uh you know doing well, there's a lot of a lot of work that maybe more than you would expect that is entailed because you have to um tag and track birds over a period of time and monitor different what's called vital rates. So, you know, the survival and reproduction um of tens, um, how well the poles are surviving, um, the mortality rate of males. So all kinds of things factor into that. And we just really didn't have the information. But from individual studies that do exist from specific locations, um it varies a lot. There are definitely populations that are declining, and there are populations that are doing really well or have improved, so it's very variable from the literature that's out there.
SPEAKER_02I gotcha. Yeah, and I would imagine like it just seems like I mean, we're plugged in with so many folks in like the hunting community, and it just seems like Florida is such a like coveted space to go hunt, obviously, because of the Osceola. And I I mean, I would just think it's like a checklist for every serious turkey hunter, they gotta come to Florida and shoot an Osceola turkey, like it is for duck hunters to go hunt in the timber in Arkansas or whatever it might be. But I would imagine that that demand puts a lot of pressure on the turkeys, at least I mean, on public for sure, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and uh, I mean uh that's really currently, you know, FWC, um, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, um, that's the regulatory body for determining, you know, how much uh hunting pressure the population can stand. And so um, you know, as far as I understand as is, they do uh have regulations in place um that control the hunting pressure on the population, and they would be the ones to determine whether that needed to be um adjusted or not. As far as I know, there's not really there's not really any talk of uh changing things dramatically. Um access to the osseolas is already kind of limited based on again how much um how much hunting can be done on public lands and then private lands. Um, I mean, Florida is interesting. There's a lot of private land here where the landowners are controlling who gets to hunt on their property. And so in those cases, you kind of have to um, you know, get like a private outfitter or know the person who owns the land or something to be able to access them.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Well, I mean, I I would take it as if, you know, FWC obviously is taking data to make these decisions. So I mean, it must be a sign that there's you know, seeing healthy populations enough to justify like, hey, you know, keeping keeping hunts going down there.
Hunting Revenue And Data Driven Policy
SPEAKER_03So yeah, it's very complicated because you know, we don't like FWC included, um, anybody who cares about turkeys, we don't really want to um change policy if there's not a lot of data to support it. Um because so much of the money from you know the hunting community and hunting organizations um is uh like what allows us to protect them and to have funding to research them. So it's like we don't want to, you know, jump the gun when it comes. Those are like really big decisions, and that's part of the reason the state, you know, had given us this money to figure out what was going on with populations, because you know, even the state of Florida, we make a lot of money um from people coming here to hunt dots yolas. So you know, they don't want to change things, but they also don't want the populations declining, so they just want information to be able to find out what we do need to do.
SPEAKER_01I wish that message could be so much stronger. And you know, uh that is so important that, you know, there's so many we talk about it so many times on our podcast where you know you always have your naysayers of like, you know, we're big into conservation, we do the we go to fundraisers and we do all these different things that we can afford to do, um, and support it, of course, through our media outlet. But you know, the the thing is is that more people need to hear what you just said. And that is like you only have this resource because here you you pay for your licenses, you pay your taxes, all these things, but full circle, that's a great, great example of how this circle keeps going. You know what I mean? And and that's so awesome. I'm so happy that you that you mentioned that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, part of a a really cool thing about this position has been learning about where all the funding uh comes from and trying to get funding and stuff, because it's not like it, you know, in some aspects of research, you're really just depending on federal funding. Um, but with game species, there's a lot more options because there's private organizations, um, there's the state. Um because again, they are making all of these regulations um to um control hunting and management. So uh um yeah, it's uh it's definitely something that we uh like have been seeing in working with uh hunting hunters and like hunting organizations. It's like they play a really big role in us being able to do research from us.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's awesome. Yeah, and I you can go ahead.
SPEAKER_01I was just gonna say, and you know, just from having other professionals like yourself on, you know, I mean, um from different states, you know, it's it's not always just one source either where this this money's coming from. You know, sometimes it's a collaborative thing, multi-state to study a species. Sometimes, like you said, it's private organizations, and somebody's got to go out and ask for that money. It's not like people just come up and go, hey guys uh got a million dollars to dedicate towards this uh research program. And I mean, yes, there are nice people, there are great donors, and there's things like that and great organizations that help push that stuff, like turkeys for tomorrow or um you know, or ducks unlimited or whatever it is, you know, but um it's it's not always as easy as just okay, we got this funding and now let's go do it. You know, there's a lot more stuff involved.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it's also continuous, like you're always trying to get funding to be able to continue what you're doing. And uh, you know, like my position is fully grant funded. You have to turkey population, you know, it costs money to keep them at this field station to pay for their daily animal care. Somebody has to take care of them every day. Um, you know, they need food. Um, we need technicians, like all of these things that, you know, us being able to continue to do is we have to keep uh finding and more and more money.
Development Pressure And Wildlife Corridor
SPEAKER_02And uh with with uh kind of circling back to, you know, we were talking about kind of brought hunters into the picture as far as like, you know, what the population and the effects on the population, but with what you guys are studying in Florida with or what has been seen in Florida um as far as like what's affecting the the polts and the nesting rates and all that, is it um is it similar to what other uh experience the best of Florida's forgotten coast with limits and outfitters, offering professionally guided fishing charters and coastal adventures? From chasing in-door favorites like redfish, trout, and turple tail to heart pounding shark charters, every limped and outfitters trip is led by a seasoned licensed captain with true local expertise. Book one of their many popular experiences like nearstore Mati Mati fishing, nighttime flatter gating, scoffing in St. Joe Bay, or wild outfitter guide. Whether you're planning a family vacation, a trip with friends, or a corporate retreat, Limited Outfitters plate up well-equipped boats and experienced guides to deliver first-class outdoor adventures for anglers and sportsmen of all ages and experience levels. Call or text Captain Chris at 850-251-8650 or visit FloridaDucks.com to reserve your charter today. Blimton Outfitters making the Forgotten Coast unforgettable. Uh other states do you as far as like meso predators and or is there anything in Florida that's like you wouldn't expect that's affecting these um these you know polter, you know, nests? The habitat or the habitat or whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_03I would say something that is especially relevant in Florida is um development and habitat destruction. Um, because if you uh you know, if you look at Florida and how uh you know land use has changed over time, it's just development, development, development everywhere, especially uh anywhere near the coast of the state.
SPEAKER_05Sure.
SPEAKER_03Um, and we actually have seen how much that affects turkeys because um we have this uh um this really cool thing called the Florida Wildlife Corridor.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is all the thing with the Panther, um, the Panther documentary.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um yeah, it's uh is really important for probably a whole bunch of different species, but basically it's just a series of interconnected lands. Um, so there's a lot of public lands that are in it, private, there's incentives for private landowners to get their land in it, and it's just basically trying to connect habitat so that we don't have all of this, like you know, if you look at like an urban area, it's just maybe small parks or nature preserves, and then highways and everything around it, houses. So having this like interconnected landscape is really important. And we've actually seen that um, you know, especially for the Osceola turkeys, because South Florida is worse in terms of um development, um turkeys that are living, turkey populations that are living in the corridor are um doing a lot better in terms of um survival and reproduction. Um and there's been even already a few new publications uh specifically looking at the Florida Wildlife Corridor in relation to turkey populations. So uh, you know, thankfully we have that corridor and that's really great, but that just goes to show how much how detrimental development is um when you don't have um any kind of um solution for all of this development and um habitat fragmentation.
Raising Captive Poults From Lost Nests
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I know, I mean, obviously just the turkey is important, but I I mean the path to the panther, if you guys haven't seen that documentary, um, I'm sure there's all kind the black bear, I'm sure there's all kinds of species that really, you know, are enjoy enjoying the same benefits of having that Florida wildlife corridor. Um do you guys so with your with the research research that you guys have done from the ones that you captured and have raised, I mean, what are some of the things that have been surprising that you guys have learned? Or is there any um I I guess I'm just interested of what that process looks like from when it started to to where it's at?
SPEAKER_03There have been so many surprises. Um the first thing is like how hard it is to keep polts alive, even when you are trying to keep them alive in captivity and not letting them starve or not letting them get eaten by predators. Um just how fragile and sensitive they are, and like so, in some ways they have like really amazing instincts for survival, but like in other ways, like I don't know, I feel like our biggest take on from like seeing these guys is like how are they even not extinct? Like, how are these things surviving one of them? Um, because they will try to drown themselves, like they will just get into any trouble that they can. Um and uh yeah, they're just so sensitive, like they could get wet. Like we had a bolt that got wet because a you know, a thunderstorm rolled in really quickly. And uh, like I was uh this was when we were doing this foraging experiment with them. So we're outside in this vegetation plot, they're running around foraging. Um and it started raining really hard, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna collect the polts and you know get them out of the rain. And even just like uh how wet they got in the time that it took me to collect them, um, they were like shivering and like not moving and stuff. And uh as soon as they got dried off, um, three of the four of them were back to normal, but one of them kind of went had this like I guess sort of domino effect from it, where uh it was maybe influencing like she was too cold, so she wasn't active enough, so she wasn't eating enough, like and it took like days of like basically this pulp being in like what we call the pulp ICU of like we're syringe feeding it sugar water, we're syringe feeding it mush food, we have it in all of like the perfect conditions under a heat lamp, like just to get it to recover from that one instance of being wet. And it's like wow. How are these guys surviving? Like, how does them how do they never get wet when they live in Florida where there's summer storms and their nesting season does overlap with the you know the summer storms to some extent?
SPEAKER_02No, that that is super interesting. And uh, we had just recently the Jason Lapardis, the CEO at Turkeys for Tomorrow on, and he was talking about how turkeys are like in like to your point, are somewhat while while they're so smart, they're also kind of like dumb. Like he was saying that like uh I forgot what he said, but like a hen could like take their pulse back to the same spot day after day. That like, okay, you know, little Jimmy got ate by a hawk yesterday and then it just goes right back to the same spot the next day, you know?
SPEAKER_01No, he was saying year after year it occurs. It's it's that you know. Oh, okay. Yeah, like let's say that there's high predation in that nesting area, it won't travel far from there to try to, it's not like a lot of other animals where they're like, all right, I'm getting out of Dodge, I'm gonna go here. You know what I mean? It's it's just he made it kind of seem like as if they don't tend to have a lot of strong ability to to separate themselves from predators in those kind of situations.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, um, I mean, and our turkeys are interesting because you know they're not actually uh they predators can't get to them, but there are predators that will come up to the surrounding areas, and we've definitely seen them like go towards predators that were on the outside of the aviary. So, but it's like we've also seen a lot of anti-predator instincts, like them, you know, being really um perceptive of predator noises and predator cues. So, you know, and we also know that in the wild tordies gobble at predators. So it's like it's a mixed bag. Like there's some ways where like their instincts seem so good, and there's some where they almost seem like you know, maladaptive. And uh I mean maybe there could be a reason to, you know, that example that you know Jason provided, like who knows what else was going on that maybe made her continue to choose that location over other locations, but yeah, um it's uh it is just crazy that they managed to survive. I mean, they lay their eggs on the ground, they're just on the ground on the forest floor. Um the poles can't fly when they hatch. So they're running around on the ground, and uh um, you know, they're just little bite-sized, easy-to-catch things. They can't really get away from predators, you know, other than staying near their mom, so that their mom can kind of try to protect them, there's not much they can do um until they get to the point where they can fly, and then uh, you know, their survival goes way up after that point because at least they can fly into like a low branch and get away from a lot of ground predators that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, that's that's interesting. Do you know? Um, because I I think I read in Georgia it's like 1.75 to like 1.93 like pults per you know year or whatever, pults per hen. What do you know what Florida like ballpark is on that? I'm just curious because I know like Georgia they said back in like the heyday was like three to four, so like they're and they say I guess two about the survival rate, yeah. I guess two polts per hen is considered like a stable or growing population.
SPEAKER_03So you mean like that's how many polts per hen like by the end of the pulse stage?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that make it all the way to adulthood.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so even within Florida, in terms of like uh where there has been poles survival being reported, um it does range a lot, but from what I've seen, I want to say like sixty to eighty nine percent mortality overall. Wow. So again, like eighty nine percent mortality um is like You know, the worst, you know, populations that are doing the worst in terms of you know cult survival. And then if there's some that are doing 60% mortality, that's really good. Um yeah, it's uh it does vary um from what I've seen. But overall, even poor survival, like you said, can you know they uh they're they've kind of evolved with a strategy to have a lot of young because predation is high. So even a survival rate that seems kind of low can still be enough for stable populations, but you know, some of these populations are growing really bad, like 11%, you know, if you put that in into any sort of population modeling, that's probably gonna lead to a negative population trajectory. So um, yeah, cult survival is an important component. Um and it seems to vary a lot, and also people report it differently or measure it differently, you know, like because we don't have a lot of people that are actually putting tags on cults and monitoring them long term. So the data is very um limited and incomplete. You know, it's more like people finding people tracking the hen and trying to see how many cults she has, and then coming back a week later, tracking the hen, seeing how many cults she has. So, you know, the data is also just not very consistent or good, which is part of the reason we wanted to do this like captive wild turkey research. Um, because uh, you know, we don't have them all getting eaten and we can sort of see what's influencing their uh growth and development. Um but yeah, these methods are getting uh there are um increasingly more uh you know technologies that can be used. Um you can put tags, PPS tags, on something as small as a colt now. But it's not, I mean, it's very expensive, and they are most of them are gonna get eaten, so it's still hard to pull off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's super interesting.
SPEAKER_01Next thing you know, you're you're following around a coyote for two days, and yeah, yeah. You thought you had a bolt that you were you like, how come we can't find this thing? You know, but it's like gosh, that that bolt covered a lot of ground. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, our field crew has gone through uh some some crazy lengths to retrieve tags. Um there was one that was found in a um in a Python.
SPEAKER_02Wow. I mean I believe I believe it, but holy cow, that's crazy.
Osceola Versus Eastern Behavior
SPEAKER_01Wow. The um do you guys I know I know the study's so sh uh infant and it's in its and it's um in its uh like length, yeah. But have you guys noticed any difference between the behavior of the Easterns versus the Osceola Polts?
SPEAKER_03Not at all. And we have taken so much data on their behavior, uh, you know, both when they were little polts and you know, up to now where they're almost a year old. Um we have we even have uh seen Osceola turkeys mate with eastern turkeys because like just recently, as in like just last week, they started mating. Um so they don't seem to act any differently and they don't seem to perceive each other any differently based on subspecies. Um so uh you know it seems like the subspecies difference is mostly um morphological, like there's differences in their feather coloration and stuff like that. Um, but other than that, uh we're not seeing like much difference in terms. I would I would guess that maybe the osteolas are probably less sensitive to heat. Um it's not something we've tested, but you know, they're living in it is significantly hotter in South Florida compared to North Florida. Um so I mean there might be some other physiological differences like that, but in terms of like behavior and interaction, um they don't seem to know the difference.
SPEAKER_01Interesting.
SPEAKER_03And in the wild, there is a hybrid zone. Um from what we understand, um, they do hybridize in areas where they overlap, so they mate with the of the other subspecies.
Vegetation Trials And Poult Diet
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's interesting. And that was that's what I was gonna ask, because surely that's you know, there's gotta be a buffer zone there. Um now that's that's crazy. When you guys are um when you guys are studying and doing these studies like the one you did with um taking them out and you know you they got rained on, but you guys were looking at what they would were foraging on, um, what is like that in particular? I mean, what are you hoping to find? Just I mean, is it as simple as like what they're eating from day to day, or what's like the goal of just a study like that?
SPEAKER_03So the most important goal, and um this is something that we like are pretty much done with at least our uh you know our preliminary data from last year. So this will be something that's getting um that's getting uh um but yeah, the really important thing we were trying to learn is how vegetation characteristics influence ults of growth. And so every brood of polts was assigned to a specific vegetation treatment where you planted um different combinations of things. So the vegetation differed in things like just the overall ground cover, the vegetation height, um, the presence of different um types of functional groups of plants, so like forbes versus grasses. Um, so we basically just had each group foraging in very different conditions so that we could uh and like kept everything else the same. So we could isolate what vegetation characteristics are making them grow faster during their foraging trials. Um and uh, you know, the reason that we did that is because we think that's uh a really huge thing affecting colt survival in the wild is having access to uh habitats where they can forage um efficiently and grow fast enough. Because what I said about how when they uh once they get to flight, their survival goes way up. Um the uh the better that they're able to forage when they're young and the faster that they're able to grow, they can probably get to that point sooner, um, which means less time stuck on the ground getting gobbled up by predators. Um and we want to be able to tell people because there's a lot of um there's a lot of people who are really interested in trying to manage their land to improve turkey populations. So um, you know, if we can tell people what vegetation characteristics are really important, you know, be it planting, you know, more forbs or just having certain types of cover structurally, um, it's something that people can use to provide that habitat. Um, because, you know, the vegetation that they're in determines how well they can move through it, how well they can catch bugs, how many bugs are even there to begin with, um how protected they are from the elements, you know, if they have some cover from um rain or sun. Um, so lots of different things are just completely determined by what vegetation they're in when they're out foraging.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. I guess uh while while we're on the the the the food side of it, what um is there a way to to to say like so much of a turkey's diet is is insects versus you know they're just eating these plants, these leaves or whatever. Is there a difference like or is it just kind of varied? I mean, uh on a whole lot of things, it'd be a hard question maybe answer.
SPEAKER_03There is some there is some data out there that have looked at, you know, what cults are eating. And uh they, you know, during those first two weeks of life, um, so that period where um survival is the poorest, um, they are eating primarily insects. So almost all insect protein. We did see a few instances of our um colts eating like uh the leaves of certain species of forbs, like they were eating like soybean leaves. Um so we saw a few things like that. Um also what the older that they get, the more that they begin to utilize um vegetation. So like, you know, vegetative matter, fruits, grains. So they uh oh, we also saw that our polts ate a lot of um seeds, um grass seeds and stuff like that. So uh, you know, they're eating mostly insects, and that, you know, that protein is what's helping them grow so quickly because they're uh, you know, they're growing at an insane rate when they're young.
SPEAKER_02So um do you think there's any um like strategy that you know why they might switch to more of a vegetari vegetarian diet as they get older? I mean, is there any kind of reason for how they develop as a turkey for that, you think?
SPEAKER_03You know, that's a great question. I don't um I don't really know the uh you know the metabolic what's going on behind that. Um, you know, I do know that uh, you know, when they are first hatched, they uh it takes them some time to develop their digestive tract fully and uh over time they will like eat different things like different rocks and stuff um that will help them grind up matter. So it may be that it takes time for their digestive system to develop enough to be able to effectively digest plant matter. Um, but like I don't know, that's just kind of speculation um based on what I know.
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SPEAKER_03You know, just the fact that insects are the highest protein option that can fit inside of a colt's beak. Um, it's like the amount of you know nutrition that they're getting per thing that they're eating is really high, which is probably important, you know, because it's not just body mass growth, but it's feather growth, um, you know, getting their wings long enough to where they can start to catch air. So um, you know, protein is also probably just the most efficient thing for rapid growth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that makes sense. By the way, how weird is it that they eat rocks to help like, you know, whatever that does for their digestion. That is so weird to me. I've never understood like why that was a feature that would be. She could probably tell.
SPEAKER_01She's probably the one that's yeah, so so tell us and everybody else why birds do why well, because it's not only them, I mean doves do it. Yeah, yeah, it's weird.
SPEAKER_03Oh man, I uh I don't know. I'm not a physiology expert by any means. Um so and I'm like you said, I'm sure that there is somebody who specializes in the evolution of bird digestive systems, but yeah, that that might be outside outside of my scope um why they why they've come to depend on that. Yeah. But it is crazy to me, and some hunters will um keep the uh the stones uh that they find inside of their digest digestive tracts, and they're like it's basically like a little rock tumbler in there, you know. So they're getting it tumbled around and ground up, and the rocks actually end up being like really smooth and beautiful and stuff. Like there are people that have like little jars full of like the rocks that they found from the birds they've hunted. So uh it's pretty cool. Um, but yeah, I mean uh they do uh I could speculate some. I mean, they don't have that much mechanical digestion, like you know, we chew up our food first, they don't do that. Grab it, they don't have teeth, they don't chew and they just grab and swallow. Um so like more of the digestion has to happen internally because there's less going on externally. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um but uh that's yeah, that's that's so interesting. They're just like, yeah, we don't have teeth to chew, so we're just gonna like eat all these rocks, that'll do it for us.
SPEAKER_03Yep. No, that's and having these extra structures like the c the crop and the gizzard that you know we don't have because we don't, you know, we don't really need that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02When you guys are um, you know, because I always find this interesting, like how big of a uh um how big of a topic like prescribed burns are. And it's like I know I understand why it can be so beneficial to turkeys because of just like the evol or you know, the evolution of like the property where you know the new stuff grows, bugs come in, it's great, turkeys can see all of that. But like I would imagine just in nature on its own, like I mean, I couldn't imagine it be as as often as people are doing it as a prescribed thing. I mean, I gu I don't I guess my question is like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm just I find it interesting that like Do you think that the control burns are being done more often than what nature would provide itself?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01So you're are you curious about like how the positive and negativity of that is?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm just it's just kind of interesting. Like I just don't feel like it would happen that often in nature, you know what I mean? I it's great that I know there's great benefits to it, but um, I mean, have you guys done any of that with the population you have and uh done any tests with that?
SPEAKER_03Um, so we haven't done anything with the captive population, but there has been a lot of research on you know what controlled burns and you know in general. And we do know that um especially for like nesting cover and brood rearing cover, the types of habitat that is created within you know the first year or two after a controlled burn is really critical to turkeys, um, to be able to find places to nest where they have cover, but they're not like surrounded by vegetation so that they're not just getting eaten at a huge rate while they're trying to incubate their eggs. Um, and then again, for that creating that type of vegetation structure that the polts can forage in. Um, both of those things are really created um by burning and kind of have to like they kind of only happen or only are in those ideal states. Okay, sorry my fridge made a really low noise. Um, but yeah, they're kind of only really in that ideal state um within the first year or second year after prescribed burns. So if people wait longer than two years um to do another burn cycle, they're gonna not have very much of that habitat. And in terms of like how often it would have been happening, you know, in nature, you know, I know that we're really suppressing controlled burns in any way, like pretty much everywhere. Um I don't know if they're I don't know off the top of my head if there's existing data on how frequently burns were happening um like naturally in Florida um before we kind of like messed up that natural cycle. Um, but just based on like uh you know what we've seen in terms of what burn cycles are ideal for um all of the species that live in areas that are fire dependent, I would say it probably was happening pretty often. And maybe it wasn't happening in every single area um every two years. Um, but maybe there were enough areas nearby where, you know, say turkeys in any given area could find a place to go with their poultent forage that was within a reasonable range to them.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Well, and then there's the the whole thing about like, right, and I don't even know how to even form this question for you, but it's it's like I guess uh on the simple form, like let's take the honey bee, for example, right? We know just public knowledge, the you know, I feel like the um it's it's pretty well known that you know that hey, if we lose honey bees, there's a lot of stair steps that that come from that, you know, and from simple pollination, you know, fruits, vegetables. I mean, you can we can go on and on and on. But what I'm curious about is like you know, when it comes to turkeys, especially in the Florida habitat, like what not only what is needed in order to support them, so like say, all right, we need to have pine trees, longleaf pines that have these bugs with these diseases because they create grubs for the turkeys and you know, and one thing after the other. Um, because like we were talking with uh uh Dr. Emily from Georgia, and she was in charge of uh waterfowl and gators. And so we were telling her that there's way too many gators, she said no, there's not.
SPEAKER_02I think you're talking about uh Kara.
SPEAKER_01Kara Kara, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02Emily Rushton's the one that um as long as I don't have them mixed up, I might have them mixed up. But Dr. Emily Rush uh Rushton's the one that does the uh turkey for for Georgia.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yes, yes. Okay, but but the funny thing was is that you know, here we were as waterfowlers talking to them more on a waterfowl perspective while she's like telling us, well, I know that you guys want more ducks, but we're doing a really good job with the gator, so we're you know, and I'm like, no, you're doing too good of a job because we're seeing way too many of them out there joking around. So just curious. Um I hope that I know that's a really long-winded question, but I hope you kind of understand where I'm coming from with that. Like uh I'm sure you guys have a term for that, like when one thing feeds off the other. Yeah. Um I hope that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Um okay. Are you asking like um what impact turkeys have on other things? Is that where you're getting at?
Turkeys As Predation And Seed Dispersal
SPEAKER_01I guess I guess that's really what I'm getting at, is just like, you know, what is do turkeys serve a natural place to other plants, other plants and animals, I guess. You know, is their is their function vitally as important, you know, um in the whole scheme of things?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that is a great question. Um, one thing that I can say for certainty is they're a really important food resource for predators. Um, so things like birds of prey and uh crows, even, um, depending on what life stage, um, and you know, ground uh miso predators, mammals like you know, raccoons and uh um foxes and uh coyotes, bobcats, eating adults at least. Um so uh you know, they're you and like snakes will eat the eggs, so uh they are an important you know food resource for predators. Um I would say in terms of other things, it hasn't been very well studied. One thing that we have been doing with a captive population, though, is looking at their role in seed dispersal. Um, and uh I don't really have you know the finalized results to give you at this point, but I can say that what people have kind of assumed is that even if they eat seeds, they're getting destroyed in their system. Um, but what we've seen observationally is that they're pooping out a lot of the seeds. And so if they're eating a bunch of seeds and running around and pooping them out, then you know, as long as those seeds are germinating, they may be playing a really important role in the plant community, spreading those seeds. And that's like something that we're actually you know looking at right now to test. So is um like we've collect we've done experiments where we fed them stuff and collected their poop and uh you know, seeing how long is it going in their system before it gets pooped out because that would determine where it's getting dispersed. Um, and then also uh germination tests are the seeds from those from like you know, the droppings germinating as well as the ones that don't get eaten by turkeys, and they might even get eaten better because there's this idea. Um, it's called scarification that like the seeds will get like sort of scratched or stuffed. Stuffed up in there and it might actually enhance their germination. So they may germinate at higher rates. Um interesting. But that's all kind of new stuff that uh is just starting to be researched. So let's say like they're definitely playing a role, but like in terms of uh how exactly they're important for their you know communities as a whole, it's definitely um understudied.
SPEAKER_01There's there's more to learn there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's interesting. I would imagine that it's also kind of like a little perfect uh built-in, like first little fertilizer for for whatever's trying to germinate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
Practical Habitat Tips And Mowing Risks
SPEAKER_02If you if you know, looking at what you guys have learned in the last year, like big picture. I mean, if you had to tell people listening, like how not like exactly to the T, but just like some basic principles on like if you were gonna create a a turkey habitat on your property, like let's just keep it as simple as Florida, because that's where you guys work. I mean, what are some things that people can do to um you know help help themselves?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, um, I will take this opportunity to pitch our online uh turkey management courses. We have two now. Um, so uh people um can look those up and um lots and lots of turkey experts give their opinions um and you know knowledge on um what types of management strategies um are best for turkeys, but basically they need a very specific habitat at each life stage. So um you need places for the females to nest safely. Um hen survival on the nest is related to um the habitat that they're in. So um they do need to have you know some ground cover, but like if you don't burn often and there's just like a ton of ground, you know, thick stuff all over the ground, that's the kind of habitat where the hen is going to get eaten at higher rates on the nest because she can't necessarily see predators coming um or get in an area that you know keeps her away from predation. Um, and then once the colds hatch, um, they need like kind of clearings, so areas where there's not a bunch of trees and stems and stuff, more like um ground vegetation, but probably not like typical grass like lawns. Um that's probably not great because it's not very biodiverse and probably not sustaining a lot of insects, so more of like native open areas, um, so like native forb and grass areas, um, which again, this is the kind of thing we're testing now, but we think that you know those kinds of structures are better for turkeys. Um, because basically they can they can be running around on the ground and uh you know be able to move freely and hunt, but they have this little canopy cover over them. So, I mean, with polts, you know, out in the open for op out in the open foraging, you know, if they can be seen from above, then a bird of prey can get them pretty easily, for example. So, you know, having that cover and area with lots of insects. And then, you know, once the uh turkeys are um older, they need a good place to roost at night. So um, you know, trees with branches, um, where uh you know they can get up off the ground, but also kind of be um protected overhead from um owls and stuff like that that might hunt them while they're sleeping. So, you know, basically there's you know important habitats for every life stage and uh you know any given area where a turkey population is is going to do better if it has all of those. Um so yeah, habitat, vegetation, um, oh, not mowing during the nesting season. I will say a lot of the eggs that we got were because people mowed over nests. Um or they mowed all around nests, and then you know, like you're defeating the that like the purpose of all that cover if you're mowing it really short. And the hens like, you know, even if the eggs are okay, the hens probably be like, oh wow, my habitat just got destroyed, I'm not gonna nest there anymore.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So um there are also like things like that, you know, people that manage property in their open areas, they like to tend to mow them, but that's not good for um eggs or bolts.
SPEAKER_01Now, uh this let me ask the well, never mind. Uh, I was gonna ask. There are certain areas that have regulations on how high or how much you can let your and I'm not meaning I'm not trying to be like throwing shade at an HOA right now. That's not I'm saying like, all right, you know, your grass is six inches tall, that's gonna affect that's not what I'm talking about. There are state regulations in states where if you own certain uh open land that you are required by law to they'll they'll test fines on you if you do not cut that land. You know, um sometimes it's in it's an agreement with a um a conservation uh effort or whatever, but I know like in the state of Illinois, um if you many times, and it sometimes it's just within a regulation within that city's bylaws or whatever, that here you have this pizza property, a field or whatever it is, and you know, maybe it grows traditionally, say five foot high and tall weeds or something like that. You know, it could be anything from buck brush to to you name it, fryers to all that stuff. And they'll require, you know, people will get fined if they don't they don't do that. Now, I it could vary state to state. I don't know a lot about that. Um, but I'm just curious if that has anything to do with that outside of just people pleasing their own vision. You know what I mean? Pleasing it's a pleasant, it's a it looks more beautiful when it's mowed, you know, type of thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't I don't know a ton about that either, but my hunch would be I can't really think of any good uh reason ecologically to require people to keep their grass a certain height. So my assumption is that it would be for aesthetic reasons and you know, I don't know about the bylaws and stuff, but maybe they would have some type of exception for uh um, like I know there are some places where people could enroll their land as like you know, a habitat for certain things of conservation concern that maybe could exempt them from some of those fines, possibly. So again, I don't really know that much details on that kind of thing, but that could be something to look into if people do feel like you know they are being forced to do something that's bad for um you know their their turkeys and other things on their land. Because again, um, or I guess I didn't really mention this, but turkeys are kind of considered um an umbrella species because the things that are really good for them um are really good for like a lot of other things, like everything that depends on early succession, for example. So, like those uh, you know, habitats created by fire, um they have very similar needs, and areas that are managed for turkeys tend to make all of those other species um populations better as well. So um what's good for turkeys is good for a lot of different things that people don't care about as much because they're less charismatic or don't have economic value or you know, don't people don't hunt them, etc.
Future Findings From Captive Flocks
SPEAKER_02So that's interesting. It's kind of like moist soil units, like being a what's up, guys? If you want coffee that doesn't suck, you probably can guess what I'm gonna say. Get the duck. Dirty Duck Coffee is the official coffee of the One Hove Life outdoor podcast, and they have a great lineup of different coffee blends, everything from Morning Wood and First Flight to Dark Dynasty and Suns Up, Guns Up. You can't go wrong with Dirty Duck Coffee, and they have a great lineup of cold brew cans, mocha, French vanilla, original cold brew, and cinnamon teal snickerdoodle. If you want 15% off your next order, use code OneHell of Alive15 on your next order. Yeah, positive for all kinds of, you know, it's not just ducks that you're yeah, I know people build them for ducks, but like obviously there's egrets and there's little fish and invertebrates and all kinds of crap that all kind of not crap, but you know, stuff that all kind of intermingles in that ecosystem. Um, you know, with with you know, you guys are a year in. I mean, what's kind of like as this as a study plays out, as this program plays out, I mean, is there anything that's um kind of on the forefront that you guys are really w hoping to to get out of this? And I mean, I'm not even sure how like how long could these turkeys potentially live in captivity?
SPEAKER_03Um, that's a good question because their lifespans in the wild are pretty short, but it's because usually because they're getting eaten by predators. So, like, that is one thing that we can like there's a lot of things that our research can add just to uh basic biological information about these guys. Um, and that'll be one of them. What is their maximum lifespan if they aren't dying of predation or starvation? How long can they actually live? Could it be like seven plus years, maybe? Um, I don't know. Um, and then uh so yeah, that's that's a question that we'll be able to answer. We're also um we've been weighing the turkeys um once per week ever since they hatched. So we have really good data on their growth over time, um, which you know in the wild, you could uh you couldn't really get that unless you went out and kind of like caught the same turkey like every week, and then it would probably die of a panic attack with like crazy. Um they are uh you know very easily stressed, like our captive population isn't because they're act, you know, they're used to humans. Um so like a lot of just very basic information and like developmentally, you know, when we were out there foraging with the polts every day, we were recording the first time they do different behaviors. Uh so like you know, one fun fact that I just love telling people is they were strutting when they were three days old, three days after having they were strutting and they were like a little cotton ball. Uh they barely even had a tail, and their tail was like oh my god, that's so awesome. So there's a lot of just there's a lot of basic, just fun uh, you know, stuff that we didn't know before that we're learning. And you know, now we're getting to learn about you know female mate choice, um, you know, because we have uh birds that are mating now, and uh, you know, we have uh males that vary a lot in you know their um sort of dominance status because we have these very interesting hierarchical um social organization that we don't really know that much about. So we're learning more about that and how that influences their interactions, we're learning more about um um how those things play into uh which which males get to mate. Um, you know, so is it their uh some of their characteristics like their size, their snood length, and um how much they're screwing and and uh we've done a lot of diet selection things looking at you know what um turkeys eat at different life stages and um how their experience with new how their experience shapes what they eat, you know. So how do they want to incorporate new food things? But I would say like the most important overarching thing is our work on the colts. Um we are um we actually have eggs incubating right now for year two of patching colts, and we want to continue to do this several more years and kind of expand on what we had done last spring to where we're now instead of just testing, you know, different vegetation characteristics and how they influence development individually, we kind of want to replicate like management strategies that people use. Um so like management strategies that favor that favor, you know, like native forbs or native grasses, or more like agricultural um forbids. So people that use their land for agriculture but also want to be so for colts. So we have like basically different specific types of vegetation structures that we're going to have colts forage in and then directly compare um, you know, how efficiently they forage and how quickly they grow in those. And so I mean that's just uh the most critical thing because it's like just something you could never get in nature. I mean, you can try to uh you could try to uh you know look at those polt per hen counts and uh you know maybe have a GPS tracked POLT and look at where she's choosing to forage with her um with her pults and our ones that foraging in some areas better than others, but it's just really hard to control for all of the other factors that are influencing that. Um, and so we have this like you know perfectly controlled experiment where everything about their lives is the same except where they're foraging it. So that's like I would say the biggest thing that is going to be most impactful from this.
Follow Along And Support The Lab
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, that's that's awesome stuff. And you know, I'd obviously UF Game Lab has like a pretty solid, you know, it looks like you guys update stuff pretty frequently on social media. And I there's a podcast too, right? Like the Turkey Science podcast.
SPEAKER_03Yes, Wild Turkey Science.
SPEAKER_02Um okay, and do you do they can you follow those platforms to kind of get little updates on kind of what you guys do there? Just for anybody that's listening that's curious.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you can follow the UF Game Lab on um Facebook, Instagram, um, we have a YouTube channel. So there's lots of like little reels that are just fun content, um, you know, especially from our captive population because we just get such funny good footage of them all the time. But we'll also um we also try to put out like short videos when we've put out new papers, um, just kind of explaining the results of those papers in a digestible way. And um, and on the podcast, if people comment, you know, questions pretty often, we'll try to uh, you know, make episodes that are addressing what people want to learn about. So um, yeah, outreach is really big um for us because you know, so many of like I said, Florida has a lot of private land. Um, there's a lot that like uh can be influenced just by getting information to people who have the ability to um um influence land management.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Is um are there any ways that um that people could support, like whether it be through time or monetarily, or what is there any ways that people can get involved to support UF Game Lab?
SPEAKER_03You can um people can donate directly to us. Um I could share um the link, but we have a um a way to directly uh donate to our lab for our turkey research. Um so there's that, and people can donate. There's no minimum amount or anything. Um they could also get something from their money if they um take one of our courses. Um so, like those Turkey Habitat Management courses, it's like you're getting information, you know, that way you're not just giving out money, but that money would still be going directly to our lab. Um, so those are the best ways because in those instances it goes directly to us. Um, but of course, any kind of, you know, people want to donate to um nonprofits or conservation organizations that give out money, um, that's always great too. Um, it's just that then uh it's up to other people to decide, you know, whether to give it to us. Um and then uh aside from just donating money or anything like that, uh um we people can just watch our content and share it because it gets our information out there um and uh um increases viewership and our YouTube channel is monetized as well. So playing our YouTube videos technically is like donating to us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, awesome. Yeah, we we know how that goes as an outdoor uh content company. That's right.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Um, but you know, one thing that I've been just I meant to ask this in the very beginning. What what is the size of the habitat? So, like obviously it's not a four by four cage for every bird or anything like that. Like, is it like uh an enclosed netted area? I'm just trying to get a visual and or maybe just direct me to something on social media or YouTube that I could look at that. I'm just I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_03The large flight pens in total are um about a quarter acre of space. So when the turkeys were uh, you know, once they were old enough to free roam that, they were uh split it like up into these um large flight pens and kind of uh pre-living and flocks. But during the controlled experiments, like the foraging trials, we had sectioned those off into different like um foraging areas that were separated by fencing, and each foraging area was 2,000 square feet. Um so um, you know, and that is our results have limitations because you know they are confined to a specific area to forage. But a lot of like the previous studies on, you know, other species, like different other types of um, you know, ground nesting game birds where they've uh tried to look at foraging behavior, you know, they may have kind of put them out in like a little pin um where they were um extremely limited and where they could access. So uh, you know, we tried to make improvements to what's been done to make it more ecologically relevant, but there are ultimately you know limits to uh like how perfectly what we do uh equates to what happens in nature.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And support the program and help if that if they want to, if they need to and want to make these these habitats bigger, they can. So it that's enough you give those options if you help support the program. Um no, I just always find it very intriguing um with professionals like yourself that do this kind of thing because um so many uh people I think just obliviously go out to the outdoors and they don't realize how much we do as a human race to support those outdoors, especially on public land. You know, everyone Georgia is in Florida in its own right. You know, we grew up we've we've been Florida for a dozen years, you know, that kind of thing. And and over time, you know, I I moved from a swampy place to wow, you know, there's there is so much biodiversity in Florida. It really just like I couldn't even wrap my whole brain around it because I could just spend a whole day still at 53 years till 54 now, walking around catching frogs. I could just that's just me, you know. So um I just think it's so awesome. And you know, we just wouldn't have these resources if we don't have the folks like you that are, you know, and and the younger folks that are going to school to do this stuff. And and there's a whole gamma of things that go into that to be able to keep these resources that we have and animals that utilize them. So thank you so much for what you guys do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, thank you for caring and for supporting us. And uh, you know, I wish that more people could do this for a living because it's really, really fun. And like you said, it's it is really rewarding. And uh, you know, we just the birds just surprise us all the time and what we learn and just surprises us all the time. So it's unpredictable.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. Well, Kelly, thank you so much um for taking time out to hop on the podcast with us. Um, we really appreciate it, and we'll be sure to uh tag you guys in anything we put out and any kind of like clips from the video and stuff. But yeah, just thank you again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yep, yeah, and maybe and maybe no, you know, we'll come into it next year, we'll get another update and we'll be able to progressively see like, hey, this is where it was last year, this is where we're at this year, and be able to talk about those results.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, that would be awesome. But yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was fun.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Kelly.