Southland Speaks | The Larger Impact of Business Development

In this episode, Michael Kimmell, the North Texas Sales Leader for Brandt, shares his thoughts on company culture, the role of business development, and how someone in business development can impact the success of a project. 

He attributes his personal success to the combination of his estimating background,  operational experience, and his certification as a professional engineer, which allow him to best align Brandt's expertise with his clients' needs. 

Through practical insights, Michael offers guidance on how business development professionals can maximize their impact and propel projects toward success. He explores the importance of effective communication, strong relationship-building skills, and a deep understanding of client needs in achieving project objectives.

Transcript

 Hi everyone, and welcome to the second season of Southland Speaks. For this season, we've invited guests from across the country in various roles to help us learn more about Southland's culture, core values, and how we can work together and foster a one company mindset. I'm your host, Mark Sodl, and I'm joined as always by Jon Buck.

Joining us today is Michael Kimmel. Michael is the North Texas sales leader for Brandt. Michael's gonna help us learn more about Brant's culture as well as the role he plays within business development and how they set up their teams for success. All right. Thanks for joining us today, Michael. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Yeah, we're excited to to chat with you today and I think maybe just before. We get started, if you could just maybe give a little bit of your background so that everyone kind of understands where you're coming from. Like Yep. Just how you ended up in your role, maybe how you ended up at Brant, those kinds of things.

Absolutely. So right now my current role, I'm the  director of sales for North Texas. So that includes both mechanical and electrical.  I know  from brand's perspective, and I know Southland is mechanical only, but they do electrical design. Yep.  We're very  unique in the situation that we get to do both mechanical and electrical from an operational standpoint as well.

 So the, you know, beyond mechanical and electrical, we do, you know, industrial, new construction, existing building.  And then also within my group, I also have  all of the estimating groups. So we have about, in North Texas, probably  35 or so, mechanical, electrical estimators that kind of spread across all groups.

 And then we've got  six business development leads, you know, few on electrical, few mechanical as well. So all that  is part of my team.  And that's kind of what I do  at Brant.  Kind of a history. I've been at Brant for 11 years. Oh  when I first came in, I started in estimating. So I was here for about a year.

Trying to figure out, you know, what the industry was.  Prior to Brant, I worked at a boiler manufacturer, so I didn't really have much knowledge of m e P construction. And so that was kind of an easy way to come in and really understand how brand operates, what we do.  And then from there I went out and did operations.

I was a APM at State Farm Regional Campus  which was an M E P opportunity, which was really cool. So I got to kind of see both sides of it. And then I went from there and was a project manager at The Star in Frisco, which is Dallas Cowboys headquarters. So Nice. I was out there for two years  which was an awesome experience, obviously being from Dallas, huge Cowboys fan, so it was fun to kind of work on that.

Yeah. Yeah. It was crazy. You know, you'd be on the job site and then they'd shut everything down and go, all right, mandatory cleanup, let's go everybody hands on deck. And you're like, all right, what's going on? And then Jerry Jones would, you know, fly in on his helicopter and land and walk around the job.

So it's, that's wild. That was a crazy experience. Yeah. Yeah.  And then from there, you know, came back in  started just new construction sales  kind of using the relationships that I had built up while in operations.  Did that for three years and then we had some organizational changes and, and kind of was able to work my way up to where now I'm, you know, overall  all the sales groups.

So that's kind of my. Background and kind of how I got to where I'm at now. Yeah, that's a, and it's a pretty diverse background too. How did you end up  like once you were in operations, what made you kind of wanted, want to get into sales? So I think I always wanted to be in sales coming back.  My personality, I working on the same thing for two years is, is hard.

Yeah.  So the, the thing that I, I love  and hate is that, you know, I get an opportunity in from pre-construction. I have it for two weeks to a month and then it's onto the next one. So yeah, I get to kind of really touch something for just a little bit of time. Sometimes it's longer depending on how the pre-construction process goes, but  I like the variety, the moving around that, that whole aspect, and it really fits my personality.

That's awesome. And how, how do you think your background, like, so you started in estimating, at least at Brant, started in estimating and then went into more of the PM role. How do you think that's helped you in your current role? Yeah, so I think the, you know, the best thing that you know in selling and selling Brant is really confidence and knowing what you're selling.

So having that estimating background, having that operational background, I understand cost, I understand what it takes to build it.  I'm also a PE so I have my PE certification as well. Okay. So I understand the actual design background of it as well, and I think that being able to speak to that with a customer is key.

 Yeah. If you have a, you know, a typical sales guy, like an equipment sales guy, they're like, Hey, buy my piece of equipment. And you're like, well, why? And I'm like, this the best that that doesn't go anywhere.  Yeah. And I think having that ability, And I, I think that one thing that Brent has done well is all of our  salespeople are all engineering background.

They have that knowledge  and that really sells  well with customers. Yeah, I could definitely see that. Absolutely.  And you, you kind of gave a little bit of the background of, you know, how, what the different things that Brent's involved in. If you were to give an elevator pitch, like you're meeting somebody at a trade show, whatever, you know, and you're meeting them for the first time, what's kind of like your.

Your intro, the brain. Yeah. Yeah. So I hate, I hate that term honestly, personally. Yeah, it's, it's very hard because elevator, you have five seconds. Right? Right. And what we do, and what Southland does is more than five seconds. Yeah. We're not selling a widget, we're selling a whole process, right. From pre-construction operations in the evening to service.

So there's a whole lot of aspects that you look at, but you know, basically what I like to focus on, you know, from a brand perspective is that we are the largest m e p design build contracting firm in the state of Texas. And we have the ability, like you said, full life cycle from cradle to grave, everything.

So there's, we're, you know, one stop shop and  that's kind of what we offer. So, and I would imagine, as you said, you know, being able to provide the, the electrical side as well, that seems like. That would be really attractive to some people, you know? Cause you get to bucket, A lot of the risk on projects is, is around mechanical, electrical.

So if you can kind of put it into one group, I would, would you see how, how have you seen that? Have you seen it as an advantage or some people, because it is such a large contract, some people might shy away from giving that huge piece to one company. Yeah, so it's, it's, I would say it's split. You know, you do have people that wanna diversify their risk and obviously with construction, At the end of the day, we're selling risk, right?

Yeah. So that's, that's, we're trying to minimize risk everything that we do.  And so we try to sell that as m e p, you know, there's not gonna be any gaps between our piece of equipment. So then what, you know, electrical power is, and a lot of times you see engineers, they, they're behind in where they're trying to get to  from a design standpoint.

And when we're trying to come in and provide pricing certainty early  you, you can have those gaps and they might not have full power distribution drawn up to every piece of equipment, right, that mechanical is gonna be carrying. And so we can go in and tell 'em, Hey, look, we're fully coordinated and we're gonna have all power to everything.

You're not gonna have this uncertainty when you go to the next round and the electrical comes back and said, well, I, you know, I didn't have those five handling units or whatever, and here's my ad. So, I think that that benefits us and the aspect of it's giving 'em that certainty and that's what they're buying, right?

So it minimizes their risk.  But a lot of times too, on the flip side, you can definitely see where contractors are like, Hey, I'm putting 60% of my overall budget into one company. Yeah. And that's, that's their risk. So they Right. They try to go from one side to the other. But if you get really down and you really like, you know, dive into what you wanna understand about that aspect from an m e p full coordinated  project that the benefits outweigh the risks.

Yeah, for sure. Have you noticed, does is, is it like a certain type of client that maybe gravitates towards bundling it or doesn't or like, I don't know if there's a trend there or not. It's, it's definitely the people who've gotten screwed before that definitely, definitely like to trend towards using the.

MEP form.  Yeah. And I think that's the, you know, definite benefit and we're seeing it a lot more when I, so when I first started, I think we did, you know, one to two M me P projects a year where I would say right now we're probably 40 to 50% of our projects Oh wow. Are full m mep. That's awesome. So, and so just talking a little bit more about like the, the business development, you know, sales side of things.

I know for some people when you're in operations, like they may not know exactly everything that y'all do, and you had said, you know, you touch it for maybe a couple weeks or a month, but I also know that a lot of times that you could have started that relationship like years ago, right? Or something like that, you know, depending on what it is, you know, and then how you're approaching it.

So if you were to describe your role, You know, to someone who doesn't, who has no idea what you do, but not like, not, you're not trying to like sell them on Brant necessarily, but someone internally, a new PE or a new design engineer starts at Brant and they come to you and say, Hey, what's, what's, what do you do?

Right. You know? Right. Yeah. So there's different aspects from design, you know, from a business development lead. Right. So a lot of times it's getting out, getting those relationships, and I would say from a new construction standpoint, 75 to 80% of my relationships are existing. Yeah.  I'm not, I'm not cold calling.

I'm not gonna try and find out new customers.  We're dealing with, you know, our same, you know, general contractors, owners, engineers, architects that we've built relationships with. Right. So they wanna use what they know brand does. And honestly, I like to tell the operations guys look, it's because of what y'all have done on the job you're working on, which is why we're.

Able to even be involved in this next project. Yeah.  You know, one example, you know  we've got Texas Instruments going right now. We did our fab, which is  in Richardson and we did that one design assist. And because of how our full operation team did  you know, they brought us in to do design build on, on the next phase.

So, It's not because of anything that I did, but it's it's because of the entire relationship that brand has developed top to bottom. Yeah. With the owner, with the general contractor that allows us to do that. Yeah.  But from what I try to do is basically I'm fostering the pre-construction relationships.

Making sure that, you know, as they go through, cuz it's a full year and a half, two year process from really the concept start to construction start. Right. And so it's, it's setting those budgets, giving the budget certainty in and trying to make sure that that process goes so that when I turn over a project to operations, you know, they have a successful job set up, ready to go and  that's kind of the cradle to grave sell from a business development side.

Yeah. So, I mean, you, you kind of touched on it there, but how do you, how do you feel like, I know you that you know the success of the project a lot of times, you know, you want, it's, it's how we execute once the project comes to fruition. But there are certain things that y'all can, you all do on your end to set it up for success.

So how do you think, like you and your role and the, and the people on your team, how do you think you all influence the success of a project? Yeah, so, What we truly like, what we like to sell is, is getting on board early.  You know, myself, several people on the estimating side all have our engineering  degrees and so we have the ability to go take a set of plans that's not necessarily complete, finish them out and then go sell them as, Hey, look, we have a hundred percent drawn in documents even at SD phase, where you might just have a baseline equipment schedule and nothing on plans, but we can go sell to the owner.

Look. We finished it out, we understand here's the full quantitative takeoff  and really sell them on that process Yeah. That we've done from a estimating side    standpoint. And so coming with that, coming with different ideas about how to actually achieve the final process too. You know, there's different ways to skin a cat, and so there's obviously understanding what the owner's expectations are, what their budgets are  and getting them really what they need is, is the best successful project for us on the pre-construction side.

I know sometimes we struggle with  putting teams, not putting teams together for projects, but, you know, trying to look that far out and seeing like, when, like how do you all balance that with, you know, you want to sell when it's an existing customer. Maybe you're, you know, hey, we're gonna just roll this team over, or something like that.

Yep.  I know that that's something that's a challenge because you never know when one project's gonna end. Like how do you all manage that, that portion of the, of the sale? Yeah. So every other week we actually have a North Texas  opportunity meeting. So that includes  myself and a couple other sales leads, but then all the operational directors or VPs from other, every group.

Okay.  So we all get together every two weeks, kind of pull up the, we call it our what if  basically it's what, what if we win this job? What if we win that job? Yeah. And so we go through and we have  all of our jobs that we're currently pursuing. Plus our wip. And  it projects our total manpower curve, but also allows us to talk about, hey, where is the project manager on this job?

When can we pull 'em off that job? And so every other week we're getting together, going through those opportunities, making sure that  we're not out picking our coverage. Cuz I think that if at the end of the day we're not chasing revenue, we're chasing margin. So Right. At first when I was in sales, I struggled with that.

Cause I wanted a win, win, win, everything. Yeah.  But you know, I definitely feel like I've understood that it's more important to make sure we have successful jobs that are creating the highest margin possible. And if we're less on margin, but we're, or sorry, less on revenue, but higher our margin, then that's more successful at the end of the day.

Yeah. What, what do you think caused that shift in perspective for you?  So, For us, we had a couple bad years where we definitely were stretched very, very thin. We ramped up our manpower by about 20 to 30% above what our, you know, comfortable capacity was to Yeah. Achieve that. And it was not a successful couple years for us, and we really struggled.

And  our labor productivity went down and our, at the end of the day, our, our net margin was what, you know, drove that. So you have an idea in your mind of like, Hey, I think we should be able to do this, but. Understanding what our capacities are, where we're gonna be successful. That's the end. At the end of the day, that's what we need to focus on.

Yeah. I would think too that that's, I mean, I agree with what you're saying a hundred percent. I think that's probably a hard thing to manage. I mean, it sounds like y'all are doing it, you know, as, as best, as as you can, but you know how, and you know better than I do, how like high minds can shift on projects, right?

You know, you, you feel like you have something set up and then that falls through, or you end up not getting the project. So, I mean, maybe, maybe that's hard. It's hard to explain, but how do you, how do you all try to balance that? Because it is sort of like a moving target. I feel like sometimes it is, and that's the hardest thing, right?

If, if, if I was able to predict it, I would not be in position. I would be, I'm in now, but I'm, I'm just something else.  And that's kind of something we, I think we all have to understand is, look, things are gonna shift, things are gonna move. E even once you're on a job, things are shifting to move. I mean, sure.

I think we ran a report one time. The average change order percentage on a job is 15%. So we're, even if we have a job and we know it's 30 million, at the end of the day, it might be a 35 million job. So that adds labor as well. So we're really just trying to get as close as we can. Nothing's gonna ever be perfect.

 But we just wanna understand that we're, you know, I'm gonna push operations a little bit, but I don't wanna push them to where they're uncomfortable Sure. Or they're not gonna succeed. Right. Have y'all had ever had to turn something down because. Ab. Absolutely. Yeah. So we've  we've been fortunate, I think in the last couple of years that the market is, especially in the North Texas region, has been  strong.

And because of that, you know, there's a lot of complex projects and Brant is, you know, one of the top  companies in performing on those types of projects. And so a lot of times we're booked up on those and we are ha we are having to turn opportunities down. Yeah. That's it. But I would imagine that's challenging to do.

Right? So what, what did, like, how do you all typically approach that? Like what's the, what's that conversation like? Yeah. I think honestly I think the, you know, our customers appreciate that more than trying to  perform when we know we can't. Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, if, if we go and tell 'em, look, you're not gonna get the best team, you're not gonna get qualified labor, it's not gonna be a successful project and.

There are plenty of other contractors that are, are capable of doing that type of work, especially on like a core shell office building. Mm-hmm. Something that's not  complex. Like a, like a data center or Right.  A microchip manufacturing plant. So those, those things they wanna have Brant on, but again, they're.

They want us to have a successful project as a customer, I want them to have a successful project. And if sure grant's not the right person, then telling them early is, is key. And yeah, not waiting until the last minute. So I think that's kind of, they obviously aren't gonna be thrilled, but at the end of the day, I think they Sure.

They respect us more for saying no than saying, yeah, we'll do it, but it's gonna be a struggle. Great. And you're not living up to the, to the brand that you all have built. With them. It's counterintuitive a little bit, right? Because if you're in that position, you think like, oh, this is an existing customer, we wanna get some work.

And if we say no, we're gonna lose their trust. But I think what you said is a hundred percent true. It's like if you're open and honest with them Yeah, you can, you can actually turn it into a positive. Yeah. And then they know when you, when you are like, Hey, we're gonna perform on this. When you do say yes and you're on that project, they know that you've like thought about it and you're being deliberate about what you're doing.

Right? Absolutely. And a lot of times too, I mean, It's not their only opportunity that they have. They might have two or three opportunities. Yeah. You know, they'll send out the request or, you know, talk about all three of 'em. And I'm like, let's pick one, let's focus on that one and let's go after that. So, yeah.

And so previously you kind of me, you mentioned  about how important it is once you know, once you have the project to, we, we sometimes, or some people in Southland use the term execute flawlessly, right? Not, not that, not that everything, anything is flawless, but. Right. It's in the operat, it's the field  leaders hands and the PMs and the engineers and everyone who's interacting with that client.

Like, if they do a really good job, it's, it, it's easy to sell the next, easier anyway to sell the next one.  How, how, and maybe you've already kind of covered this, but how do you. Help those individuals understand, especially, you know, a pe So I'm just starting with brain and I might think like, you know, yes I need to do my, my role and I need to do a good job, but I'm not really impacting what happens next.

How do you help those individuals understand just how important that is? Yeah, I mean, I kind of try to give them kind of my background and experience of what I did. So we, I think y'all used the term project engineer. We used apm. Yeah. Kinda that kind of introduction level. So, Going in and really understanding, getting on a job and being involved with the cons  you know, field guys being involved with the contractor.

You know, getting that level of knowledge is gonna be key to your success is two to three years down the road and you might not think on that job you're having an impact, but freeing up the project manager, freeing up the superintendent, allowed them to, you know, really drive this successful project. It might seem tedious to what you're doing, but you're adding that value, right?

Yeah. Because we can't all do everything, and I think that's the bigger thing. We also have to be a part of the team, put in the work to, you know, make that project successful too. And so also with being an APM or you know, project engineer, getting out, walking the job every day, really seeing how things get put in, how they go up, it'll give you that sense of, you know, understanding of what it really takes.

And then down the road you're able to have those conversations, you know, with the GE general contractor and internally as well. Yeah.  With other operational people of, Hey, let's, let's think about doing it this way, cuz you saw it happen in the field. And I think that's key as a, as a young person. Yeah.

You know, in our industry. Definitely. And I, you know, one of the things  I know some of our folks talk about too, is how important it is just to have those relationships at every level of the organization as well. So like, If you're a design engineer, an apm, whatever, and you're working with your counterpart, you know, forming those relationships, because I've heard a lot of stories about how, you know, people are getting promoted up kind of at the same level.

Right. And you don't know when construction, even though it's such a, it's such a big industry, it's such a small industry, right? Yes. And you never know when you're gonna come across somebody down the road. Yeah, absolutely. And I'll, I'll use a good example too. So on my first job at, at State Farm  there was an APM that was also at Austin Commercial as well.

And you know, him and I have stayed friends throughout and now I'm selling to him cuz he's an operational lead at another contractor. And so that relationship that I fostered back then now is, hey, he's a good friend of mine and I'm actually the mil, you know, negotiate work with him. Yeah. Which is, which is key.

That's awesome. Yeah. And one thing too, you know, that our industry does well. You know, we have a couple organizations that are not branch organizations, but we're a part of, so, Example like that is techo. We have a young constructors group within that.  And they get together and it's young APMs PMs from not only us, but other mechanical contractors, other electrical contractors, drywall, you know, general contractors, everybody within the industry that get together and really collaborate.

And I think that's key. Like you said, it's a small, construction's a small group  and everybody knows everybody. And I think it's key to kind of foster those relationships as you go up. Yeah, definitely.  So Michael, what, what would you say is your favorite part of your job? When you think of everything you, you do and you do a lot, like your, your span of responsibility is pretty wide with all the things that you cover, what's the thing that charges your battery the most?

So I get most excited really in getting and working in a design build meeting, right. Getting to work with the architect, the engineer, the owner. Sitting down, pulling out paper and really drawing, Hey, let's do it this way, let's do it that way. And really having that collaborative environment  with the whole team.

That's, that's the most exciting part of what I get to do. If, you know, if you go and you sit in a meeting and you're trying to throw out ideas and you have an engineer is like, no, I know what I'm doing. I'm not gonna do that. That, I mean, we're gonna still do what we need to do. We're gonna, you know, make sure the price is where it is and keep it that certainty.

But when you get collaborative input from everybody on the team, that's, that's the most exciting part for me. That's great. You've kind of touched on this, I think as we've been, as we've been talking  but I'm just interested, so if you're, maybe you're interviewing someone to come on to join Brant, how would you describe Brant's culture to Sure.

To those individuals? So, I mean, at the end of the day, I think bras is family.  We're definitely very small and. You know, I think some of my best friends are now Brant employees as well. You know, I've been here 11 years and I have, you know, four or five really close friends that are, I didn't have before coming to Brant.

They're brand employees. They've been here for the same amount of time too. And I think that's kind of something you see is we have a really good  you know, retention rate of people who wanna stay here because of that kind of small family atmosphere. I mean, we are a big company, but you know, at the end of the day, we're very small.

We have interaction with, with all the way from President, with Steve Hayes all the way down. So I think that having that collaboration within everybody here, we all wanna support each other. We all wanna see everyone succeed. Yeah. I think at the end of the day, that's the thing that really attracted me the most when I was coming in.

And I think whenever you talk with people that are one, two years in, they feel that same way. Even from even from day one. Yeah. I know you, I think, or I think you've been working with some of your Southland counterparts Yeah. As well. So maybe with the, the exposure you've had to Southland, what kind of, what similarities do you see in Yeah.

Between Brant and Southland? I mean, I think it's the same way. I mean, the first meeting I went to was in Arizona and you had people from Arizona, but also from the MAD division up from Oregon and. They were interacting. Like they literally worked together every day. Yeah. And they, they had that same relationship.

They were, you know, friends with each other. Again, y'all are a massive company. We're a massive company, even, you know, bigger now. But it's, it has a very small family feel, which I really enjoy. You're not feeling the corporate tie down that you would might see in other large companies.  And again, I think we all wanna see each other succeed.

We all wanna see each other be successful.  There's no. Drama politicking that I really see. And I, I really like that. But here's a challenging one. What, what would you say is the biggest difference? Man, I, I don't know yet. I, again, I, you know, I, my interaction, I would say started probably December, you know, January of this year.

So it's been four or five months.  I, they've been slow  intentionally in trying to integrate. Specific groups. Yep.  I'm trying, you know, trying to think of what might be the biggest difference, but right now I honestly, I haven't seen much, which is good. Which is this. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's one of the reasons why it was such a good fit is because the cultures are pretty similar.

Everything's pretty similar. So  the fact that you said you, you don't know yet is, is a good thing because I don't see one really either. Yep. Right. And normally you would think those things would kind of show themselves. I mean, I'm sure there, I'm sure there are gonna be some things, right. But Yeah.  A lot of times those things show up pretty early.

Yeah. So  one of the, one of the stereotypes of a business developer that you kind of  perpetuate is the golf aspect. I know you're a golf lover. I see the Yes. I see the  the masters flags in the back.  Obviously we know that that's not like, but that's sort of like the stereotype that's out there is, oh, all you, all y'all do is go golfing or whatever.

So what's a, and I, so I don't think that is true. What is this, what do you think is a stereotype about people in your role that might be true?  We're all alcoholics now. No  I mean there are obviously yes, being abyss development, there are. Things that we get to do that are fun and that is part of it.

 And it, as a young person, I was like, oh, that's, that is one of the things that attracts me, right? I'm like, oh yeah, we gotta, I get to go do all these cool things.  As you get older, it definitely changes. Your mentality changes. So I have two young kids. Yeah.  And I'm doing these things, but it takes away that time that I'm getting to spend with them.

Right? Right. If I'm going out to a dinner with a client, you know, that. That evening, I, I'm missing that time with those kid, my kids. And I think the, that you see those aspects of it, but really understanding there are sacrifices that we are making sure to do that, that, you know, that part of it is a little bit different.

Yeah. And I think understanding that from what I went through when I was younger versus where I am now is, is definitely a big difference. Yeah. I, I think people kind of fail to see some of the consequences that could come from those things that you mentioned. And I do think also, I mean  maybe this isn't true, but I feel like that's, that's like a 1980s, like 1990s view of things.

I think a lot more people are a little bit more protective of that time outside of work as well, and like it's more purposeful. It's like, yeah, we're gonna go do this, and it's, but it's not just like every night you're trying to go out and do those kinds of things. It's like, Hey, this is an important client.

We have this opportunity, we're gonna do it. It's more targeted than just this like shotgun approach kind of thing. Yep. And I think too, one thing that we've done really in intentionally is also making sure that our operational guys come and are involved in those proc in those meetings as well. You know, if I'm gonna meet with a project exec, that's great that he wants to spend time with me, but at the end of the day, he's gonna spend time with, you know, our project exec for the next two years.

Right. And so really bringing those guys along, making sure they're involved in a lot of those process as well. Yeah, and I think that, Making sure everybody's included in the business development side of it. Not just myself, not just an estimator. Right. The entire project team. And, you know, I think they've enjoyed being able to be a part of that too.

And they, you know, yeah. They don't, they're selling one time for their job for the next two years. Sure. And them being a part of that, I think they really enjoyed that as well. Yeah. I, I would say absolutely. And, and like you said too, a lot of times people want. To see those people and who are the people that are gonna, who I'm gonna be working with for the next two years, two and a half years, whatever.

Not that they don't wanna see you in the interview, but like I've heard Tim, Michael, and Matt, I've heard like other people say that too. It's like they don't wanna see me in in the interview. Yeah. You know, like yet, like leading up to it, getting prepared for those kinds of things. But when you get to the interview, a lot of times they do wanna see, well, who's actually gonna be designing this?

Who's gonna be installing it? Who's gonna be doing that work? Yep. Every day. Absolutely.  So as we, I think we've covered a lot. John, do you have any other questions? I have one last one I wanted to kind of throw out there, but I wanted to see if you had anything first. Well, I'll do mine. Mine's a fun one.

What do the Dallas Mavericks need to do in order to get to the playoffs next year?  Have someone who can rebound and defend we're atrocious in the pain. I think we were outre about it by like plus nine and a half, I think over the year. Second chance points was awful.  That's, that's I think what's gonna do it.

So did you say bring Dirk, bring Dirk outta retirement? Is that the plan then that he was, he wasn't, that, he wasn't good at doing that anyway when he was, you know, helping in his Rodman. Maybe you give Bobman a second chance with the Mavs. Oh man. Tyson Chandler, that was, there you go. Somewhere like that.

That's, that's the one we need. Yeah.  So John had already asked about the rewarding aspect, but like, so if you were to start your career over again, You know, what is something that you know now that you wish you knew, you knew then? Man, that's, that's a always a tough question, right? Yeah. Because there's things that I know that I'm gonna find out in 10 years that I wish I knew now too.

That's right. Yeah. I, I definitely think that I wish, you know, I was slowed down on some things, you know, really focus in on what o opportunity I had in front of me. Not always looking for the next, the next, the next, yeah. But really slowing down, taking time. Analyzing or everything that's around, you'd really gain that knowledge cuz I know there's things that I missed by trying to look ahead too much.

Obviously you wanna be looking ahead and, and have an eye there, but Sure. Really focusing on what you're doing, spending that time, that quality of time to either foster relationships, understand what we're doing, installing, getting that knowledge is, is key. Yeah, yeah, that's great advice for sure. Yeah.

Michael, we really appreciate you making the time today. We know you're super busy, but really enjoyed talking to you today and just thanks for, for joining us. No, thanks for having me, guys. Really appreciate it. And now it's time for a breakdown. What are your takeaways from Michael John? I love the fact that he's kind of touched quite a bit in North Texas and you know, kind of the different roles that he's had throughout his career and really as the director of sales now in North Texas, his ability to be able to do and some the estimating background and understanding project management and kind of all of those different pieces.

 Give him the ability to really know what path new people should take in order to be well-rounded in their career. And I mean, it sounded like that was a big passion of his as well as far as, you know, what it takes to build  you know, build future leaders. And then I, I liked what he had said about  the opportunity meetings kind of.

Identifying, you know, where things are as far as  in the pipeline and going through the what ifs. Yeah.  And you know, I, I love what ifs because I, I'm not a big fan of solving problems until they arise, but I do believe that in knowing where your blind spots are and identifying potential pitfalls, I think that's definitely cool.

So  yeah, kind of those things are, are my big takeaways. Yeah. What about you? Yeah, I mean those, and I think, you know, just the emphasis on relationships, you know, at every stage of your career, because those folks are gonna grow along with you as well. And you kind of never know when you're gonna see somebody again.

Right. So focusing on the building relationships  you know, I think you also mentioned something, I think it was like 80% of the like clients or people they already work with, right? So it's that past performance, those relationships. And then the other thing that I just found interesting, I mean, it makes a lot of sense when he said it too, but he, the, the shift in focus from, from moving, from chasing revenue to really chasing margin, right?

So focusing on the right job, not necessarily this big job. That's cool job, right? But is this the right job for us and is it at the right time? Can we put the right people on it to be successful? Sometimes the, the big whale isn't, isn't what we want, right? Mm-hmm. We want, you know, the thing that's gonna produce that, that healthy margin.

So that, that was interesting as well. If you enjoyed this episode, please give a like, or drop us a comment and stream. Tell us what your biggest takeaway was. Also, if you're passionate about a topic and think you've got a great story to tell, send your idea to me or John, we'd love to have you on the show.

Thanks for listening. Be sure to take something you learned today and put it into practice this week. And I hope you'll join us for the next episode.